:00:00. > :00:14.Zero Bottleneck are the towns of eastern
:00:15. > :00:29.Ukraine falling to the mobs or Special Forces. And town after town,
:00:30. > :00:37.Following Nigel Evans's acquittal, a Tory MP rejects accusations that she
:00:38. > :00:42.tried to get the complainants to call the police. I have offered to
:00:43. > :00:47.step down as an MP if they felt I pressured them into making an
:00:48. > :00:51.allegation. We will ask Nigel Evans's friend, what should happen
:00:52. > :00:58.next? The story of a horse conscripted into battle has made a
:00:59. > :01:03.global conflict real for many. We ask the author whether stories about
:01:04. > :01:19.the First World War help or hinder or understanding of it.
:01:20. > :01:24.The confrontation in Ukraine has worsened today. Much of the rest of
:01:25. > :01:28.the world wrings its hands, but plainly doesn't have a clue what to
:01:29. > :01:34.do about a far array country of which they know little. The European
:01:35. > :01:40.Union is offering financial help, Washington says it is assessing the
:01:41. > :01:45.situation, and the UN Security Council whitters. The Ukraine says
:01:46. > :01:57.it has asked for UN peace keepers but Russia holds the veto on their
:01:58. > :02:02.deployment. We're We saw another deadline for
:02:03. > :02:06.protesters to vacate buildings come and go this morning. We saw a threat
:02:07. > :02:09.from Kiev to conduct an anti-terrorist operation as they
:02:10. > :02:16.called it, no action, the protesters are still there, by my account
:02:17. > :02:20.occupying 12 public buildings across the region. Trading accusations
:02:21. > :02:23.internationally, the US, the EU and the Ukrainians themselves have said
:02:24. > :02:27.it is Russia stirring up trouble here, causing the protestors and
:02:28. > :02:37.even accusing them of having their own forces on the grounds. The
:02:38. > :02:40.Russians answering and saying it is the Ukrainians who are causing the
:02:41. > :02:45.trouble by not listening to the demands of the protesters. We are at
:02:46. > :02:49.a dangerous moment, we have 35,000-40,000 Russian troops just
:02:50. > :02:53.the other side of the border here and the protesters holed up in the
:02:54. > :02:56.building down the road for me and not appearing to back down. It is a
:02:57. > :03:01.very difficult moment for Kiev. We have seen news that President Putin
:03:02. > :03:04.has phoned Barack Obama and asked him to restrain the Kiev
:03:05. > :03:09.authorities. There is a real threat of war here. Now the Russians have
:03:10. > :03:13.flatly denied that they have got any troops here taking part, Special
:03:14. > :03:18.Forces, taking part in the seizure of these buildings. And we haven't
:03:19. > :03:23.seen widespread, what were call little green men that we saw in
:03:24. > :03:26.Crimea, stoney-faced and well-disciplined troops, obviously
:03:27. > :03:31.Russian soldiers, despite denials. We haven't seen those widely here.
:03:32. > :03:36.But who are the people taking over all these public buildings over the
:03:37. > :03:41.past weekend and today today, I have been travelling an the region and
:03:42. > :03:46.watching events unfold. A provincial police station in eastern Ukraine.
:03:47. > :03:55.On the streets outside there is battle for control. A shot rings
:03:56. > :04:02.out, this was on Saturday morning were it all began. That man in the
:04:03. > :04:08.blue jacket is a local journalist. The mob has decided's an enemy of
:04:09. > :04:11.their cause. In towns across this region angry pro-Russian protesters
:04:12. > :04:19.have been taking over Government buildings. We arrived here just
:04:20. > :04:24.afterwards, our car was stopped by the same crowd. The protesters are
:04:25. > :04:28.extremely aggressive, they just saw us with our camera, they threatened
:04:29. > :04:33.us, they broke our memory chips, they told us to get back in the car
:04:34. > :04:39.and get out of here immediately. What is by now familiar pattern we
:04:40. > :04:44.got news that police stations were falling to protestors in other towns
:04:45. > :04:50.as well. We went to find the journalist that fled in search of
:04:51. > :04:53.safety. TRANSLATION: I will carry on, I'm used to this. I have had
:04:54. > :04:57.death threats, I have had threatening notes and text messages.
:04:58. > :05:02.Someone through a rock through the windscreen of my car. Russia has
:05:03. > :05:07.explicitly denied sending Special Forces into eastern Ukraine. But who
:05:08. > :05:12.were the men then who seized the police station? TRANSLATION: There
:05:13. > :05:16.were about 100 of them, 10-15 guys were clearly soldiers. They arrived
:05:17. > :05:22.in a mini- but I couldn't tell if they were Russian or -- a minibus, I
:05:23. > :05:26.couldn't tell if they were Russian or Ukrainian, the rest were local
:05:27. > :05:29.guys in military fatigues. We returned the next day, the
:05:30. > :05:33.protesters had barricaded themselves inside the police compound. We got
:05:34. > :05:36.permission to go in and film at what is becoming the centre of this
:05:37. > :05:42.rebellion. The men at the gate referred to their commander by his
:05:43. > :05:47.nickname "Slava", clearly these were local guys, not the Russian Special
:05:48. > :05:53.Forces on open display in Crimea. But they were armed. We saw at least
:05:54. > :05:56.a dozen men carrying Kalashnikov rifles and other firearms, weapons
:05:57. > :06:01.they appeared to have taken from the armoury inside t police station
:06:02. > :06:08.itself. These men said they were old friends from the local school. Some
:06:09. > :06:13.were still neighbours. There was nothing organised about it this man
:06:14. > :06:19.says, he's a carpenter and he heard what was happening on TV, jumped
:06:20. > :06:23.straight in a taxi and came here. His friend, a car mechanic, admits
:06:24. > :06:30.they did take some of the equipment out of the police station, just to
:06:31. > :06:33.defend themselves. All of them refused to recognise the new
:06:34. > :06:41.authorities in Kiev, they want a referendum on independence for the
:06:42. > :06:46.region. He says doesn't need Russia, America or England, he wants to be
:06:47. > :06:51.left in peace in his own country without someone telling him how to
:06:52. > :06:56.live his life. Today Kiev indicated it might consider some sort of
:06:57. > :07:03.referendum on autonomy. But it is also sending in military hardware,
:07:04. > :07:07.and for these citizens that is a scary thought. They have put up
:07:08. > :07:16.barricades on the roads into town in anticipation of an attack.
:07:17. > :07:22.TRANSLATION: Vladimir Putin help us, please. It is clear who he sees as
:07:23. > :07:26.the guarantor of his security. These local women are preparing Molotov
:07:27. > :07:34.cocktails, they say they are ready for a fight, but they are not
:07:35. > :07:41.Russian Special Forces. But who are these men? Seen here taking over the
:07:42. > :07:45.police station in the nearby town. Could these with the Russian Special
:07:46. > :07:49.Forces? They certainly look more disciplined and better armed than
:07:50. > :07:53.the local activists. Might this be the pattern? The men with the big
:07:54. > :08:00.guns go in first and then retreat leaving the locals to hold the
:08:01. > :08:02.building. It is clear that there are overlinked between some of the
:08:03. > :08:11.seperatists and Russian nationalist groups. This for example is
:08:12. > :08:16.Alexander Dugan, pick at the end here in South Ossetia, weeks before
:08:17. > :08:22.the Russians invaded Georgia. He's a Russian idealog, with links to the
:08:23. > :08:30.Kremlin, who relishes greater empire. Here he is in late March,
:08:31. > :08:32.giving advice over Skype to one of the leading rebels, in a
:08:33. > :08:38.conversation littered with words like "traitors" and "enemies", he
:08:39. > :08:42.tells the seperatists to organise local self-defence forces. Set up
:08:43. > :08:50.checkpoints and take control of the eastern border he advises. There is
:08:51. > :08:53.no suggestion that this particular activist or Dugan have been involved
:08:54. > :08:57.in the seizure of Government buildings, but this conversation
:08:58. > :09:09.closely mirrors the thinking here inside seperatist headquarters in
:09:10. > :09:14.the centre. At this meeting seperatists discuss their plans,
:09:15. > :09:18.include seizing control of airports, military installations and those
:09:19. > :09:26.border posts. They were clear who they would turn to if Kiev attacked
:09:27. > :09:32.in response. TRANSLATION: We will call on Russia for help, on Belarus,
:09:33. > :09:38.or Kazakhstan, or Georgia, I know plenty of people who are sick and
:09:39. > :09:41.tired of what happened after their revolution. Here the protesters
:09:42. > :09:45.remain in control of the police station, the seperatist now occupy a
:09:46. > :09:49.dozen buildings across the region. What happens now here inside this
:09:50. > :09:54.police compound is absolutely crucial to the future of this
:09:55. > :09:59.country. If this stand-off can some how be resolved peacefully, then
:10:00. > :10:05.there is hope for a united Ukraine east and west together. If this
:10:06. > :10:08.place is stormed, if these barricades are broken down and there
:10:09. > :10:13.are mass casualties, the ramifications of that will be felt
:10:14. > :10:17.hard and for a long time to come. Kiev is losing control. But any
:10:18. > :10:25.crackdown could become the pretext for a Russian invasion. One false
:10:26. > :10:30.move could lead to war. Our guest is a specialist in the
:10:31. > :10:43.Ukraine at the foreign affairs think Stanning, Chatham House, we have the
:10:44. > :10:48.a representative from the Russian radio station from here. What is the
:10:49. > :10:55.hope here? To see Ukraine as a stable and neutral country, which it
:10:56. > :10:58.has stayed for the last 23 years of its independence. That is difficult
:10:59. > :11:01.when you haven't got a Government there? There is a Government and it
:11:02. > :11:05.was elected by a legitimate parliament that has been in place,
:11:06. > :11:16.taking into account the vacuum of power, when the fugutive President
:11:17. > :11:22.left. It is case of ruling? If it is case of ruling over the security and
:11:23. > :11:26.the externally ruled armed conflict. So you assert, it is just a claim?
:11:27. > :11:30.The claim is the Ukrainian Government will take control in the
:11:31. > :11:34.way of consolidating the power. It is clear now that some parts of
:11:35. > :11:38.eastern Ukraine would like their own revolution. But it has never been a
:11:39. > :11:45.home-grown seperatist movement. What does Russia want to see happen in
:11:46. > :11:48.eastern Ukraine then? I guess. Russia does believe in the
:11:49. > :11:54.territorial integrity of the country does it? That has been said, Crimea
:11:55. > :11:59.was a very special case, but I guess what it does want to see is
:12:00. > :12:04.stability in eastern Ukraine and respect for the rights of the people
:12:05. > :12:06.who live there that are mostly ethically and linguistically, I'm
:12:07. > :12:10.not sure about mostly, but significantly Russian. That is a
:12:11. > :12:15.wish that should be respected isn't it? It is clearly we don't have any
:12:16. > :12:20.evidence in the last months that any rights, any human rights of
:12:21. > :12:26.political rights, or ethnic minority rights, of people who we see on the
:12:27. > :12:31.screens have been violated. There is an OAC mission that said no rights
:12:32. > :12:33.have been violated. The instinct of the new authorities, the Kiev
:12:34. > :12:38.Government, right from the start, from the word go, were to limit the
:12:39. > :12:42.use of the Russian language, and actually that concerned Hungarians
:12:43. > :12:45.as well. And Hungary came out in protest against that and
:12:46. > :12:51.Switzerland, strangely, although I'm not aware of any Swiss community in
:12:52. > :12:54.the Ukraine. I don't think we can apply instincts towards a political
:12:55. > :12:59.reality. The political reality is such that the language law passed by
:13:00. > :13:05.the old President is in place. It was vetoed by the acted President.
:13:06. > :13:10.So any of the linguistic rights granted before are in place. But you
:13:11. > :13:14.would accept that there was an elected Government in your country,
:13:15. > :13:17.that it was deposed, that it is clearly incapable of asserting its
:13:18. > :13:27.will in the country. Would you accept all of that? You mean there
:13:28. > :13:33.was a legitimate Government of President Yanakovic who violated
:13:34. > :13:39.human rights. But there was a coup in your country? There was a coup in
:13:40. > :13:44.parliament and it has they had acknowledged this Government and it
:13:45. > :13:54.was voted in the parliament. The change to the, or the revert to the
:13:55. > :13:59.2004 coalition was agreed to by Yaakovic, the change in the
:14:00. > :14:08.constitution was adopted by Yushenko, the previous pro-western
:14:09. > :14:13.President. The The mamenings we see are covert operations to destablise.
:14:14. > :14:18.I wouldn't say it is a Russian plan to destable Ukraine. We have never
:14:19. > :14:23.seen militants before, we have never seen such images in the eastern part
:14:24. > :14:28.of Ukraine. And I mean these... You are seeing them now? These men could
:14:29. > :14:32.have been deployed either from Crimea, under Russian control or
:14:33. > :14:37.crossing the boarder from Russia. Or possibly they are local people?
:14:38. > :14:42.There are local people later on used as a shield and some of these police
:14:43. > :14:45.stations they are taken over by clearly paramilitary troops. Do we
:14:46. > :14:51.know and have evidence of that. There has been talk from Washington
:14:52. > :14:54.about 20 of those special ops Russian soldiers have been captured.
:14:55. > :15:01.Let's see them. There has been evidence of the arms today using the
:15:02. > :15:06.ammunition of the Russian military. AKM-74 has been produced since 1974,
:15:07. > :15:10.it has been in circulation in the former Soviet Union. The British
:15:11. > :15:14.Foreign Secretary, he's also not been there says that there is a
:15:15. > :15:20.clear evidence of Russian intervention. But he has got
:15:21. > :15:23.satellite surveillance, he has human intelligence. You know, these are
:15:24. > :15:32.people who don't usually make things up aren't they? Don't they? Go back
:15:33. > :15:36.to Iraq? Do we? Fair point! But there is another thing that the
:15:37. > :15:40.satellite images are available on Google maps. I don't think this is
:15:41. > :15:45.about satellite images and we are not saying that Russia is deploying
:15:46. > :15:50.those militants that we see on the satellite images I think they are
:15:51. > :15:54.infiltrating through the covert security operations, and throughout
:15:55. > :15:58.the week we have been hearing Ukrainian services arresting Russian
:15:59. > :16:04.intelligence officials on the territory of Ukraine being part of
:16:05. > :16:08.the covert operation. Now it certainly doesn't seem fair that a
:16:09. > :16:13.man judged by the courts to have done nothing wrong should end up
:16:14. > :16:19.massively out of pocket and know when mud is thrown it is usual some
:16:20. > :16:24.of it will stick. The former Deputy Speaker of the House of Commons up
:16:25. > :16:30.on charges of sexual assault says the trial cost him his life savings
:16:31. > :16:35.and dignity. The Crown Prosecution Service is trying to recover from
:16:36. > :16:40.another failed case. Nigel Evans believes those accused should be
:16:41. > :16:44.entitled to the anonymity of those who make the complaints. The MP who
:16:45. > :16:46.took the original allegations to the Commons authorities has told
:16:47. > :16:56.Newsnight that she doesn't regret doing so, but has faced massive
:16:57. > :17:01.hostility from colleagues. Cleared of all allegation, free to
:17:02. > :17:06.take the breakfast TV sofa. Nigel Evans makes no secret of how
:17:07. > :17:12.low his spirits fell, at one point he considered taking his lie. In the
:17:13. > :17:15.early days, at the darkest most loaneeist moment -- loneliest
:17:16. > :17:19.moment, you think there was only one thing worse and that is being
:17:20. > :17:26.accused of murder. It was only because of the friends who had faith
:17:27. > :17:29.and hope in me that kept me absolutely solid. People who you
:17:30. > :17:34.would think would run away from you, because of the allegations that were
:17:35. > :17:39.made actually ran towards me. Now he's won the fight to clear his
:17:40. > :17:45.name, he will battle, so others accused of sexual offences can have
:17:46. > :17:50.their identity protected. Number Ten said there are no plans to change
:17:51. > :17:56.the rules. But Evans's friends in the Commons are making plans for a
:17:57. > :18:00.party to celebrate his return. The MP who first heard the complainants
:18:01. > :18:05.allegations is unlikely to be invited. So I asked what was her
:18:06. > :18:08.motivation? The action I took was to pass the contact details for the
:18:09. > :18:12.police to these individual, I did not report this case to the police,
:18:13. > :18:17.in fact I did everything I could to try to see if there was an internal
:18:18. > :18:20.disciplinary procedure. Because that was the clear preference of those
:18:21. > :18:24.involved. The problem is within parliament, if people have a concern
:18:25. > :18:28.about a member of parliament they are working for, that person is
:18:29. > :18:33.their employer so they can take a complaint to them or they can take
:18:34. > :18:39.it to the whip's office. The whip's office is hope lessly conflicted in
:18:40. > :18:43.handling these kinds of allegations. Why was it up to you, even to take
:18:44. > :18:47.it to the Speak e these young men could have at any point gone to the
:18:48. > :18:51.police if they had seen fit? Of course they could have done, but the
:18:52. > :18:53.point is they didn't wish to go to the police at that stage, they
:18:54. > :19:06.wished to, this is what they have told me, they wished to have a
:19:07. > :19:08.disciplinary process. Didn't wish to go to the police at that stage, they
:19:09. > :19:20.wished to, this is Did you push them into that? No it
:19:21. > :19:25.would be very serious if I did. Why did you say you would step down? If
:19:26. > :19:29.I felt I had pressured them, or they felt I had pressured them, it is
:19:30. > :19:33.such a serious allegation I would be prepared to step down. When did you
:19:34. > :19:36.offer to step down? I phoned them yesterday, because I felt it was
:19:37. > :19:39.very important to, you know, because this allegation had been made about
:19:40. > :19:45.me and my professionalism, I wanted to know whether that is how they
:19:46. > :19:49.felt? Not, of course it is how they felt about it that matters. And they
:19:50. > :19:53.were both very clear with me that they hadn't felt that I had
:19:54. > :19:56.pressured them. But if they had said to me they felt pressured or they
:19:57. > :19:59.felt I should have stepped down I would have done so. Many of your
:20:00. > :20:04.colleagues and Nigel Evans himself believe that some how you were
:20:05. > :20:08.trying to push this. Nigel Evans has said today it was mentioned to you
:20:09. > :20:13.as a throw away remark and yet you pursued it. He didn't know why but
:20:14. > :20:17.he says you decided to have it in for him? That is ex-orderry, I would
:20:18. > :20:21.turn that around, why is it that people in parliament don't take
:20:22. > :20:24.forward concerns that are reported them. These issues are widely
:20:25. > :20:28.discussed in parliament. This was the first time anyone had ever said
:20:29. > :20:32.to me this has happened to me. Are you surprised that colleagues,
:20:33. > :20:38.frankly, some of them are furious with what you did? Of course I'm
:20:39. > :20:41.surprised. I would say the really serious questions that need to be
:20:42. > :20:44.answered in parliament is where are the people who have been hearing
:20:45. > :20:54.these kinds of allegations in the past and not taking them forward
:20:55. > :20:59.SFUF. We need to have the same standards as other professionals.
:21:00. > :21:04.What is the issue with culture in Westminster? There are issues of
:21:05. > :21:08.professionalal boundaries, you are in a position of power, and that is
:21:09. > :21:13.my point of view. People may think I'm were youedish, but there you
:21:14. > :21:17.are, I think there is a professional responsibility and some MPs overstep
:21:18. > :21:20.the mark. There are calls for the CPS to treat these cases differently
:21:21. > :21:25.and calls for anonymity for defendants? I stress that Nigel
:21:26. > :21:28.Evans has been found innocent of all charges, and this is entirely
:21:29. > :21:33.separate. The point is what we must now do is not have a kneejerk
:21:34. > :21:36.reaction to actually change the law. Nigel Evans and many of your
:21:37. > :21:40.colleagues look at this case now, look at what happened to him and the
:21:41. > :21:44.case fell apart, they believe now it is time for change, are they simply
:21:45. > :21:50.wrong? I think that we have to be very wary to do anything that stops
:21:51. > :21:54.women and men of course, because men are victims as well, from coming
:21:55. > :21:58.forward. I would not support absolutely would not support a
:21:59. > :22:02.removal of anonymity, nor for a change in the law that allows the
:22:03. > :22:07.CPS to bring lesser charges to build a case. Because in some cases, and
:22:08. > :22:12.I'm not referring at all to this case, but in some cases that can be
:22:13. > :22:15.very important. Do you regret at all doing what you did? I think it is
:22:16. > :22:20.very difficult. The thing I regret about it is the hostility that I
:22:21. > :22:25.have faced in actually doing it. It has been very uncomfortable bringing
:22:26. > :22:28.this forward. Certainly professionally for me it has been a
:22:29. > :22:32.very difficult experience. And no doubt will continue to be a very
:22:33. > :22:40.difficult experience in Westminster. Do I think that if somebody came to
:22:41. > :22:46.me again and said I have been raped would I feel I would say to them in
:22:47. > :22:50.future, nothing to do with me. I think that what we absolutely need
:22:51. > :22:54.within Westminster is a process where people can go to. I never
:22:55. > :22:58.sought to be judge and jury in this case, that is for others, somebody
:22:59. > :23:01.needs to be there who can listen to all of the evidence and make a
:23:02. > :23:04.judgment. And the fact is unfortunately within Westminster
:23:05. > :23:07.there is no process for that to happen.
:23:08. > :23:13.We invited Nigel Evans to speak with us this evening, but we were told he
:23:14. > :23:18.wasn't available. The former Conservative MP Anne Widdicombe gave
:23:19. > :23:25.a character reference at the trial. You thought he was kind, truthful,
:23:26. > :23:30.considerate, when you heard about the drinking and the inappropriate
:23:31. > :23:34.sexual conduct, or contact, what did you think? I think the fact that
:23:35. > :23:39.somebody makes the odd drunken pass does not make them a rapist. And I
:23:40. > :23:44.never believed the allegations that were made. But they have been
:23:45. > :23:49.through a proper process of trial. And have been shown not to be
:23:50. > :23:53.sustained. And I think there are now major questions to answered, not
:23:54. > :23:58.least on the part of the CPS. Because this is just the latest in a
:23:59. > :24:04.whole series of cases where high-profile people have faced not
:24:05. > :24:09.one charge but multiple charges and have then been acquitted on all of
:24:10. > :24:16.them. Just before we move on to that, was the sort of behaviour that
:24:17. > :24:20.you heard about, you say everybody gets drunk occasionally and does
:24:21. > :24:24.something inappropriate, but precisely where you draw the line is
:24:25. > :24:29.the key thing. Is it appropriate in the Deputy Speaker of the House of
:24:30. > :24:34.Commons? I don't know exactly what happened, I mean Nigel Evans denies
:24:35. > :24:40.what was suggested. I was certainly never invited tho these events and
:24:41. > :24:46.-- to these events and wouldn't have expected to have been. What we all
:24:47. > :24:53.now know is he was innocent of every single charge from the most serious
:24:54. > :24:57.one which was rape, down to sexual assault, where even the alleged
:24:58. > :25:03.victim said they didn't want to press charges. The police had
:25:04. > :25:05.insisted. I do think there are two big questions, in fact there are
:25:06. > :25:10.three big questions coming out of this. The first is whether the CPS
:25:11. > :25:15.is operating to a sensible standard of proof when it decides to bring
:25:16. > :25:20.these charges. The second is whether there should be a level playing
:25:21. > :25:26.field when it comes to anonymity. The third is whether there is now a
:25:27. > :25:29.habit on the part of the CPS of bunkedling up a whole load of very
:25:30. > :25:33.weak cases, none of which would stand up on their own in court and
:25:34. > :25:39.suggesting that some how because there is a lot, therefore there must
:25:40. > :25:43.be something in it because there is no smoke without fire. Let's take
:25:44. > :25:48.the two points about the CPS, is it in that terrible phrase "fit for
:25:49. > :25:52.purpose" as far as you can see? I'm not saying it is unfit for purpose,
:25:53. > :25:59.but it has certainly got its approach wrong. It was wrong in the
:26:00. > :26:04.case of Bill Roache and wrong out of 14 of the charges for Dave Lee
:26:05. > :26:09.Travis, and wrong with the nine charges against Nigel Evans. If it
:26:10. > :26:13.has any sense at all it will be saying we're not getting this right,
:26:14. > :26:16.we need to look at our approach. Most people reading some of the
:26:17. > :26:22.evidence, not just in Nigel's trial, but in some of the others' which I
:26:23. > :26:26.have mentioned say hang on how could anyone bring a case based on this
:26:27. > :26:30.evidence. Why do we have all the expense, and from the point of view
:26:31. > :26:35.of the defendant also the agony of a public trial, tying up state
:26:36. > :26:39.resources when actually most of the evidence is flimsy. Let's look at
:26:40. > :26:45.the case of the public aspect to all of this. There are suggestions now,
:26:46. > :26:50.not least from your friend, Nigel Evans, that in a case like this a
:26:51. > :26:54.defendant should be entitled to the anonymity often given to those who
:26:55. > :27:00.claim that they have been assaulted. What do you think about that? I
:27:01. > :27:04.think that either you have anonymity for both, or you have anonymity for
:27:05. > :27:10.neither, or you have the course which I would prefer, which is where
:27:11. > :27:13.you do allow accusers to be anonymous, but at the end of the
:27:14. > :27:19.trial, if the accused is acquitted, then it should be a matter for the
:27:20. > :27:23.judge to decide whether or not the anonymity should be preserved. Or
:27:24. > :27:30.whether they should be named at that point. If he thinks an allegation
:27:31. > :27:33.was wholly unsubstantiated or frivolous or malicious or whatever
:27:34. > :27:37.it might be, he might then decide that they could no longer have
:27:38. > :27:41.anonymity and the press could name them, or he might decide that the
:27:42. > :27:46.circumstances were such that the anonymity should continue. What I
:27:47. > :27:49.don't think is fashion and I have said it for a long time, I have
:27:50. > :27:54.written this in the past. What I don't think is fair is where you
:27:55. > :28:00.have got anonymity f one side but not for the other. In the specific
:28:01. > :28:08.circumstances of the House of Commons, the Houses of Parliament
:28:09. > :28:12.generally. Doesn't the place need a different set of rules and
:28:13. > :28:16.procedures that people can go through in order to have their
:28:17. > :28:21.grievances properly explored without having to take it up with their
:28:22. > :28:33.employer, effectively, the member of parliament who is also the
:28:34. > :28:39.discipline channel. A member of staff can go to a tribunal in the
:28:40. > :28:43.same way as anyone else. If there is a possible criminal element
:28:44. > :28:48.involved, really they reported it to the Speaker, and they took action.
:28:49. > :28:52.Nobody would suggest up internal disciplinary procedures over a rape
:28:53. > :28:56.charge. For goodness sake. So I don't actually think that many of
:28:57. > :29:00.the procedures need changing, but I think as a result of this case that
:29:01. > :29:10.there are things that will be looked at, and probably quite rightly so.
:29:11. > :29:13.Thank you. Now, it is one of the greatest nightmares, being convicted
:29:14. > :29:18.of a crime you didn't commit and then being sentenced to death. In
:29:19. > :29:26.the case of Glenn Ford almost everything about the trial Stanning.
:29:27. > :29:30.No eyewitnesses -- stank, no eyewitnesses or any evidence, just a
:29:31. > :29:40.couple of incompetent lawyers in front of an all-white jury. He was
:29:41. > :29:45.sent to his death in 1984 in Louisia 30 years later he has been cleared.
:29:46. > :29:50.The moment Glenn Ford finally walked out of prison. A free man after
:29:51. > :29:56.three decades locked up for a murder he didn't commit. 30 years, 30 years
:29:57. > :30:01.of my life, if not all of it. Because I can't go back and do
:30:02. > :30:06.anything I should have been doing when I was 35, 38, 40, stuff like
:30:07. > :30:11.that. Ford was a young man when he was convicted of shooting and
:30:12. > :30:14.robbing a local watch maker. An all-white jury found him guilty, he
:30:15. > :30:20.was sentenced to die in the electric chair. Locked up on death row in the
:30:21. > :30:24.notorious Angola Prison in Louisiana, a long legal challenge
:30:25. > :30:27.started. His supporters always said the evidence against him was weak.
:30:28. > :30:34.There was no eyewitness, or murder weapon. But it took until March this
:30:35. > :30:39.year for the Louisiana Supreme Court to overturn the conviction, an
:30:40. > :30:43.informant went to the police saying another of the original suspects
:30:44. > :30:47.pulled the trigger. I certainly feel bad for him and I'm sorry it
:30:48. > :30:54.happened. But also when you look at the case everybody had good
:30:55. > :31:00.intentions and it was a mistake. Ford is one of the longest-serving
:31:01. > :31:05.death row inmates to be set free. Since executions were reinstated in
:31:06. > :31:08.the mid-1970s another 143 prisoners have had their convictions
:31:09. > :31:14.overturned. But public support for the death penalty has always been
:31:15. > :31:18.high. Only once in 1966 have polls shown opponents in the majority. The
:31:19. > :31:24.number who say they are in favour has been drifting down since a peak
:31:25. > :31:29.in the 1990, but 60% of Americans still support it, just #3R5% are
:31:30. > :31:33.against. -- 35% are against. It is high, but if you consider they have
:31:34. > :31:38.had the death penalty a long time, so to conceive of not having it is a
:31:39. > :31:42.bit of a leap. I think it is getting closer and closer to 50% will force
:31:43. > :31:48.the Supreme Court to look at this issue. Gle Ford will get ?8,000 for
:31:49. > :31:54.each of the years he spent inside his cell. Asked for a pent as he was
:31:55. > :31:58.-- comment as he was driven away from the gates. He told the court
:31:59. > :32:02.his sons were babies when he was convicted, now they are grown men
:32:03. > :32:06.with children of their own. Joining us from New Orleans is Glenn
:32:07. > :32:15.Ford. Mr Ford what's the best thing about being free? I wouldn't know, I
:32:16. > :32:23.haven't felt free yet. It hasn't really sunk in yet? Everything is,
:32:24. > :32:27.no, everything is just some what of a hassle. It feels some what
:32:28. > :32:37.strange. What has been the most surprising thing about coming
:32:38. > :32:42.outside after 30 years? Technology. Everybody with these cellphone,
:32:43. > :32:49.computers, stuff, things of that nature. As I was saying, being
:32:50. > :32:55.arrested for a crime you didn't commit, being found guilty, being
:32:56. > :33:00.given the death penalty, the death sentence, it is one of the worst
:33:01. > :33:13.things anyone can imagine, do you stay angry the whole time or what?
:33:14. > :33:22.Yeah. Well, you get angry, you feel helpless, but I never felt hopeless,
:33:23. > :33:26.just helpless. Angry. And don't know which way to go, I couldn't do
:33:27. > :33:36.nothing but wait. Were you angry all the time? No. Trying to keep my mind
:33:37. > :33:43.busy on other things. What did you keep your mind busy with? Read, do
:33:44. > :33:50.art, draw. Reading, drawing, playing chess, playing sudoku, something
:33:51. > :33:58.could keep my mind occupied. Doing things for somebody else. Whatever
:33:59. > :34:07.to occupy my mind I did. There must have been low points I guess? It was
:34:08. > :34:14.quite a few low points. Could you see, was there a pattern to them?
:34:15. > :34:19.No, well they were causing me to withdraw into myself for months.
:34:20. > :34:28.Months? I lose contact with people that I had known. Months, I wouldn't
:34:29. > :34:37.write or call anyone What do you feel now about the whole thing? What
:34:38. > :34:48.do you feel now about this way of administering justice? It's not
:34:49. > :34:55.justice. It's not, I don't know what justice, how can you call justice
:34:56. > :35:00.what happened to me. In Europe, we don't have capital punishment here,
:35:01. > :35:09.has it made you feel differently about your country do you think? No,
:35:10. > :35:15.I feel the same about it, it is a good country with some twisted laws
:35:16. > :35:18.and views and understanding. And routines that need to change. But
:35:19. > :35:29.the country is good, I like the country. What are you looking
:35:30. > :35:38.forward to most now? To be reunited with my family. To see my son, my
:35:39. > :35:53.grandson. Family I have never seen before. Thank you very much indeed.
:35:54. > :36:01.Thank you for your time. Now it is still over three months to the
:36:02. > :36:04.precise 100th anniversary of the outbreak of the First World War, and
:36:05. > :36:08.there is no consensus on how to mark the event. There has been some
:36:09. > :36:11.bad-tempered debate about whether people are being invited to
:36:12. > :36:16.commemorate an event or series of events, or an idea of what the war
:36:17. > :36:22.was, which has been got up in the years since and used, this is the
:36:23. > :36:33.Education Secretary's belief, to run down patriotism, honour and courage.
:36:34. > :36:40.What passing bells for these who die as cattle? Only the monstrous anger
:36:41. > :36:48.of the guns. Only the stuttering rifles rapid rattle can patter out
:36:49. > :36:53.their hasty odisons. Even before the war had ended, its legacy was being
:36:54. > :36:58.contested in print, music and on campus. Among the casualties of war
:36:59. > :37:02.was an entire world view, and among the many things fractured was the
:37:03. > :37:09.human imagination. But the strongest criticism and the deepest revulsion,
:37:10. > :37:13.the sense that it had Raul been a pointless sacrifice of lions led by
:37:14. > :37:22.donkeys came in the decades afterwards. In the 1960s came the
:37:23. > :37:27.musical Oh What A Lovely War. It fitted the times, but it is this
:37:28. > :37:31.idea that Michael Gove believes distorts a proper understanding of
:37:32. > :37:37.war. This is not war, it is slaughter. God is with us, it is for
:37:38. > :37:44.king and empire. We are sacrificing lives at the rate of five to
:37:45. > :37:48.sometimes 50 thousand ,000 a day. The next generation's take was
:37:49. > :37:53.shared in Blackadder, which shared many of the same convictions. Don't
:37:54. > :37:57.forget your stick? What oh, wouldn't want to face a machine gun without
:37:58. > :38:01.this! The First World War changed almost everything in Britain, but it
:38:02. > :38:05.didn't turn out to be the war that ended all wars, that has made it
:38:06. > :38:24.easier to consider it an exercise in futility. Michael Morpergo's story,
:38:25. > :38:31.Warhorse, took a mute animal to show industrialised killing. These images
:38:32. > :38:36.can bring an appreciation of an utterly foreign experience. 100
:38:37. > :38:42.years on do they help or hinter our understanding of it. To understand
:38:43. > :38:46.that is the author of Warhorse, what do you make of the Michael Gove
:38:47. > :38:51.accusations that these fictional renditions of the war are some how
:38:52. > :38:59.undermining patriotism, honour and courage? They don't, what they do is
:39:00. > :39:03.to draw attention to one of the most dreadful conflicts that humanity has
:39:04. > :39:07.been involved in, we lost ten million men. It is something this
:39:08. > :39:14.country has tried to come to terms with now for 100 years. Oort can
:39:15. > :39:20.play its part in -- art can play its part in that. Whether black cadder
:39:21. > :39:24.or Warhorse, or Oh What A Lovely War, it tells the story in different
:39:25. > :39:30.ways. We can tell the historical story, or we can tell it
:39:31. > :39:33.fictionally, and when you for instance, Blackadder is an
:39:34. > :39:37.interesting case in point. What we have in that story were beloved
:39:38. > :39:41.characters, loved characters, they came into people's houses for years,
:39:42. > :39:47.and they took the extraordinary courage, Richard Curtis and Ben
:39:48. > :39:51.Elton, to wipe them out. What did that mean? It meant that we all in
:39:52. > :39:55.an extraordinary way, because nobody knew about it. There was this huge
:39:56. > :39:58.loss, immediately, and you thought well that's the end of something,
:39:59. > :40:02.and it was the end of something, it was the end of a whole way of
:40:03. > :40:06.thinking, I thought it was a very significant moment both in arts and
:40:07. > :40:15.television and very brave thing to do. Didn't it make patriotism look
:40:16. > :40:19.stupid? What is it said, patriotism isn't enough it has to be
:40:20. > :40:27.thoughtful. Art can do that you know. Benjamin Britain brought
:40:28. > :40:31.together will Fred Owens poems and brought them in a different way and
:40:32. > :40:36.sang them. We need those emotions and feelings about the war tested
:40:37. > :40:44.and examined and art can do that. It can shine new lights on it. It is a
:40:45. > :40:51.limited picture, isn't it all the First World War "what passing bells
:40:52. > :40:56.for those who die as cattle", that is the pervading wisdom about it? I
:40:57. > :41:02.came to an interest in that war through those poem, read more
:41:03. > :41:09.closely and I think it would pay Mr Gove to do that. If you read Edward
:41:10. > :41:13.Thomas, and you read John McKray, these were patriotic people, they
:41:14. > :41:21.were trying to toss up right from wrong and what their place was in
:41:22. > :41:27.all of this. You know John McKray's In Flanders Field, "take up our
:41:28. > :41:30.quarrel with the foe", this was not against patriotism, poetry had its
:41:31. > :41:36.part to play and touches the deeper parts of us. Why is it that the
:41:37. > :41:43.First World War has a unique capacity to engender such flights of
:41:44. > :41:46.creativity? I just think it is unimaginable for me, and I have
:41:47. > :41:50.thought about it a lot, and many of us have about being put in that
:41:51. > :41:56.situation and live through what those men lived and died in and then
:41:57. > :41:59.survived and were ill afterwards and mutilated afterwards. And then you
:42:00. > :42:05.think about the grieving that went on and I suspect in my generation, I
:42:06. > :42:10.grew up just after the Second World War, so I witnessed the grieving
:42:11. > :42:15.after the Second World War, which I think does enable you to empathise
:42:16. > :42:20.with what happened before. We did have the link back to the First
:42:21. > :42:24.World War, and we do know there was this extraordinary catastrophe which
:42:25. > :42:29.wiped out the flower of our youth. Which did change the country and
:42:30. > :42:33.Europe. And 100 years later, to me any way, if we are marking this
:42:34. > :42:36.moment, that it should be done in the arts, but with purpose, it
:42:37. > :42:42.should be done with reconciliation and peace in mind, not with any
:42:43. > :42:47.sense of that this was a victory. I know the Germans turned around and
:42:48. > :42:52.marched back towards Berlin and we had more men standing at the end
:42:53. > :42:55.than they did. But it is a very, very difficult thing to talk in
:42:56. > :42:59.terms of victory when 20 years later there was another war which killed
:43:00. > :43:04.another 20 million. They weren't to know that? No, but we know it now.
:43:05. > :43:07.We can look back, those people themselves did what they did, many
:43:08. > :43:10.of them out of a passion for their country. There is no question about
:43:11. > :43:16.that. They went to war that way, and when it was over there was relief
:43:17. > :43:22.and joy. We know now that dreadful, dreadful conflict didn't solve what
:43:23. > :43:28.we hoped it might solve. They would want to know that at that time, it
:43:29. > :43:33.is striking after Sasoon and will Fred Owen write their poems they go
:43:34. > :43:40.back and fight? The sad thing is they did go back and fight, and they
:43:41. > :43:45.did make their protest in 1917 Sasoon and Landsdown they wanted to
:43:46. > :43:49.see if peace could be arrived at without utterly humiliating the
:43:50. > :43:53.enemy. They realised the suffering had gone on too long, by that time
:43:54. > :43:58.everyone's blood was up and they wanted to surrender. Doesn't the
:43:59. > :44:04.fact of the allied victory some how get overlooked in a lot of these
:44:05. > :44:09.first world war narratives? There is no doubt there was a victory of
:44:10. > :44:13.sorts. But what I want to focus on in my head is, yes there was a
:44:14. > :44:18.victory, but at what cost? At the cost of the lives of these people?
:44:19. > :44:23.All across the board, whether they were Germans or Italians, the
:44:24. > :44:28.Germans lost two million men. And when people go and I have been often
:44:29. > :44:33.to France and Germany as you have, and you see the cemetaries, the
:44:34. > :44:38.German cemetaries are empty, they were sons and fathers, it seems we
:44:39. > :44:47.now, 100 years later respect the fact that they went and fought for
:44:48. > :44:51.their country. They were not always Kaisers, they were fathers and
:44:52. > :44:56.people like we are. Do you emerge a pacifist? The older I am the more I
:44:57. > :45:01.want to be a pacifist. I had growing up two uncles in the Second World
:45:02. > :45:06.War, my uncle Peter who went to fight in the RAF almost immediately
:45:07. > :45:10.war was declared, and another uncle who became a pacifist. I had this
:45:11. > :45:16.extraordinary thing in my family where it happened, when my uncle
:45:17. > :45:20.Peter was killed my other uncle joined up and that solved it really.
:45:21. > :45:25.That is almost all tonight, we leave you with 14-year-old Lottie whose
:45:26. > :45:30.film maker father has recorded the same short video of her every week
:45:31. > :45:31.since she was born. Apparently's already planning part two. Good
:45:32. > :45:35.night.