:00:00. > :00:09.Game over! David Moyes is out, but whoever will be in next at
:00:10. > :00:15.Manchester United they will need to perform and fast. But do we all lose
:00:16. > :00:20.out if we are just unwilling to wait for success? We will talk to the
:00:21. > :00:26.City financier, one of the Red Knights who tried and failed to buy
:00:27. > :00:33.the club in 2010. Michael Gove, the demented Dalek on speed! Teaching
:00:34. > :00:36.unions often want to exterminate Education Secretaries, but is the
:00:37. > :00:43.National Union of Teachers also on track to poison itself as candidates
:00:44. > :00:49.from left-wing militants push for control. Technology is meant to make
:00:50. > :00:52.everything so much easier, everything apart from finding a job.
:00:53. > :00:55.There is no economic law that says everyone will benefit from
:00:56. > :00:59.technology, it is possible for some people, even possibly the majority
:01:00. > :01:04.of people to be made worse off. And industrial action at 30,000 feet.
:01:05. > :01:11.After more than a dozen mountain guides lose their lives in an of a
:01:12. > :01:15.large, Sherpas say they won't take climbers up Everest unless their
:01:16. > :01:23.lives improve. We will seek the views of climbers who have reached
:01:24. > :01:28.the summit themselves. Good evening, the moment the manager
:01:29. > :01:34.loses his authority you don't have a club. Sir Alex Fergsuon didn't
:01:35. > :01:38.intend that as a warning to his hand-picked successor, but it might
:01:39. > :01:43.as well have been. David Moyes was uncermoniously shoved out of the
:01:44. > :01:47.UK's wealthiest club after only ten torrid months in the club. If the
:01:48. > :01:51.club's billionare owners ever had much faith in him, it didn't last
:01:52. > :01:55.long. Once senior players started to lose faith the game was up. Now
:01:56. > :02:04.football is a multi-billion, rather than a beautiful game, who can we
:02:05. > :02:08.really expect to lead them? To admiring spectators Old Trafford
:02:09. > :02:16.is the theatre of dreams, but not for manager David Moyes. On his way
:02:17. > :02:21.out with fans' derision ringing in his ears. Easter is a time of
:02:22. > :02:26.renewal of course, but this isn't what Moyes had in mind, his team
:02:27. > :02:30.beaten 2-0 by his old team, Everton, out of the lucrative Champions
:02:31. > :02:36.League for the first time in 19 years, and looking for a new
:02:37. > :02:44.manager. Old Blue Eyes is sacked. So was it down to his failings as a
:02:45. > :02:50.leader? I think the leadership of any football manager at any football
:02:51. > :02:53.club is critical. That person is the standard bearer for everything the
:02:54. > :02:58.players do on the pitch. Now you will have players who will assume
:02:59. > :03:03.leadership roles on the field of play. But they are not ultimately
:03:04. > :03:07.responsible for the results. It is the results that matter to football
:03:08. > :03:15.clubs. And if you don't get the results, then you hit the cutting
:03:16. > :03:20.room floor. Cartoonist Paul Wood, whose strips inspired by the
:03:21. > :03:25.Premiership appear in Private Eye, have drawn these especially for
:03:26. > :03:31.Newsnight. "Actually I'm a bit embarrassed by that one, it was a
:03:32. > :03:35.very bad year". We put a huge amount of importance in what the manager
:03:36. > :03:40.does. Everyone assumes that it was David Moyes who guided his team to
:03:41. > :03:44.victory, or David Moyes who allowed his team to flop and defeat. Where
:03:45. > :03:47.does this idea come from? Was he playing? He was just standing on the
:03:48. > :03:52.touch-line and maybe giving a few words at half time. We did a study
:03:53. > :03:56.that suggested a lot of players can't understand what the manager is
:03:57. > :04:00.saying at half time and it doesn't matter if they do or don't. It is
:04:01. > :04:05.not only leaders in sport who know the pain of following a proven
:04:06. > :04:08.winner. But analysts of management technique say there is more to it
:04:09. > :04:11.than personality and character. Business and politics and sport are
:04:12. > :04:15.competitive activities. You only have to do better than the
:04:16. > :04:19.opponents, it doesn't mean you have to be an extraordinary team
:04:20. > :04:23.yourself, you just have to be less bad than your opponents. This is
:04:24. > :04:28.where the mythology of great leaders is built up. Arguably Margaret
:04:29. > :04:32.Thatcher and Tony Blair both faced enfeebled oppositions at the height
:04:33. > :04:36.of their powers. It doesn't mean we were genius leaders or invisible or
:04:37. > :04:42.conquering characters t just means they were much better than what they
:04:43. > :04:47.were facing. Politicians and share advisers invest heavily in the image
:04:48. > :04:51.of leadership. Here are messers Cameron and Osbourne, as men of
:04:52. > :04:55.action and purpose today. But the rest of us follow suit, say some.
:04:56. > :05:03.Political leadership is absolutely critical to a party's election
:05:04. > :05:08.success, all of us as voters put a huge amount of emphasis on leaders.
:05:09. > :05:11.Are we right to do that? Do we put too much emphasis on the character
:05:12. > :05:14.of a leader, rather than the team or the ideolgical presumptions or the
:05:15. > :05:16.interest groups, or as with this Government for example the period
:05:17. > :05:20.through which they were governing, or the size of their majority, which
:05:21. > :05:26.has probably had a bigger influence on how they performed that has the
:05:27. > :05:32.personality or otherwise of David Cameron. In football more than
:05:33. > :05:38.politics all careers end in fail arcs -- failure, as Enoch Powell
:05:39. > :05:42.almost said. One day you are the anointed one appointed by your
:05:43. > :05:49.predecessor, and the next you are out the door with only a ?5 million
:05:50. > :05:54.pay-out to cushion the blow. This was, of course, Sir Alex
:05:55. > :05:59.Fergsuon's own succession plan, why did it go so badly wrong. With us is
:06:00. > :06:05.one of the so called Red Knights who tried to buy the club in 2010,
:06:06. > :06:12.Alison Rudd a sports columnist for the Times, and Bill George a former
:06:13. > :06:16.fortune 500 CEO and Professor of Management at Harvard Business
:06:17. > :06:20.School. You are fan of businessmen, someone who wanted to have a slice
:06:21. > :06:23.of the club. In your view was it a business or football decision? First
:06:24. > :06:27.of all I wanted the supporters to have a slice of the club, that was
:06:28. > :06:31.the key thing about the Red Knights. This is partly sport and partly
:06:32. > :06:38.money, the two cannot be separated today. And the key, the drivers of
:06:39. > :06:41.success of a club on the field is overwhelmingly the squad and the
:06:42. > :06:46.amount of money that is spent on the squad. The key issue for Manchester
:06:47. > :06:52.United is that in 2005 they were taken over in a leveraged buyout,
:06:53. > :06:56.there was ?600 million plus put into the club, which meant they could no
:06:57. > :07:00.longer compete in the way they should have been able to do. You
:07:01. > :07:03.referred to them earlier as the wealthiest club in Britain. They are
:07:04. > :07:06.by revenue, if you look at their balance sheet they are one of the
:07:07. > :07:10.poorest. Because they have got far too much debt which, means they have
:07:11. > :07:15.underspent against all of the main peers. The record is not too shabby,
:07:16. > :07:20.doesn't this show leadership as well as money matters. Because Alex
:07:21. > :07:23.Fergsuon was able to bring in silverwear although they were
:07:24. > :07:27.underspent? The people who write about soccer say the management
:07:28. > :07:31.accounts for 10% of the performance of club. Fergsuon was an exceptional
:07:32. > :07:34.manage e not good at succession planning, but an exceptional
:07:35. > :07:39.manager. Overperformed compared with the budget we have spent. We have
:07:40. > :07:42.been underspending for several years now compared with other British
:07:43. > :07:45.clubs, let alone the Europeans. What is the danger of Manchester United
:07:46. > :07:51.having done this. The whole point of the long legacy, giving Alex
:07:52. > :07:57.Fergsuon a lot of time to bed in when he started. Will they come like
:07:58. > :08:01.other clubs with short-term attention spans and a short-term
:08:02. > :08:05.cycle? That is not bad thing, that is the way football is shifting. You
:08:06. > :08:09.can't suddenly say we would like to have a long legacy it was accidental
:08:10. > :08:12.that Fergsuon was able to give them that. Wasn't that the point of
:08:13. > :08:17.giving Moyes a six-year contract? Yes, but you could also argue nobody
:08:18. > :08:21.really, really believed it. What Moyes has ended up being is a buffer
:08:22. > :08:24.between Fergsuon, the man nobody wants to take over from, and the
:08:25. > :08:30.next man, who will probably be there for two or three years F he did stay
:08:31. > :08:34.there for two or three years they are considered a success. They are
:08:35. > :08:37.out of fashion now these empires. Most Arsenal fans are getting very
:08:38. > :08:42.tired of the Arsene Wenger empire. They would actually vote for a new
:08:43. > :08:46.manager to come in, who hadn't been there 15 years. They would be quite
:08:47. > :08:49.happy for someone to come for two or three years and bring in silverwear,
:08:50. > :08:55.and move on somewhere else. Nobody minds that any more. Bill George how
:08:56. > :08:59.do you succeed when the predecessor was so successful, such an
:09:00. > :09:03.exceptional leader that continued to outperform, is it impossible? No, it
:09:04. > :09:08.is not impossible. But I have an empathy for Moys, who is following
:09:09. > :09:13.-- Moyes who is following a legend in Alex Fergsuon. We wrote a case
:09:14. > :09:17.about him at Harvard because of their leadership. I disagree, it is
:09:18. > :09:20.about leadership and the money will follow the leadership and anyone who
:09:21. > :09:23.can win the Premier League 13 out of 26 years and two Champions Leagues
:09:24. > :09:26.is a real leader who can align and bring people together. Moyes
:09:27. > :09:29.couldn't do. That he didn't get the best out of his players, he didn't
:09:30. > :09:35.inspire them, and the result is he's out. It is no different than a CEO,
:09:36. > :09:38.you look at how Paul Pullman has turned around Unilever because of
:09:39. > :09:42.his leadership. He has to perform too, that is what is happening.
:09:43. > :09:44.Arsene Wenger has performed and it is a big challenge now for
:09:45. > :09:50.Manchester United to find someone who can take it back to the levels
:09:51. > :09:54.Sir Alex guided the club to and made it the most successful club in the
:09:55. > :09:56.world. Why are successful leaders often so bad for planning what
:09:57. > :10:04.happens after them. We have seen company after company after company,
:10:05. > :10:08.Apple, Microsoft, Tesco's here in the UK, many struggle after the
:10:09. > :10:11.superstar boss moves on? First of all it shouldn't be his call, it
:10:12. > :10:15.should be the board's call to bring in the right leader and find the
:10:16. > :10:19.right person. Look at what Chelsea did going after Jose Mourinho, they
:10:20. > :10:24.wanted a winner, and they got a winner. I think the same thing will
:10:25. > :10:27.happen after here. It is hard to follow a legend, it is hard to carry
:10:28. > :10:34.on. It is a challenge, but it can be done. It was done in Novartis and
:10:35. > :10:39.General Electric. It can be done here. Look at what is happening in
:10:40. > :10:43.Bayern Munich, not shabby club, and look Pep Guardiola has put together
:10:44. > :10:47.an undefeated season. They finally lost and it will be a great game
:10:48. > :10:50.this week, but you are seeing what leadership really matters whether it
:10:51. > :10:55.is in football or in business or in Government or in life. Leaders
:10:56. > :10:59.matter and the kind of leadership Sir Alex represented is far superior
:11:00. > :11:03.to what David Moyes unfortunately represented, so we're going to have
:11:04. > :11:08.to find new leadership here. What do you say to that? Under your view a
:11:09. > :11:11.big part of the problem at Manchester United is the structure
:11:12. > :11:15.of the whole thing? Well, it is both, I don't want to create a
:11:16. > :11:20.disagreement where there isn't one, essentially today there are
:11:21. > :11:26.eight-to-ten clubs that dominate in Europe, arguably four, and they are
:11:27. > :11:30.dominant because of money. It is economics that drives that. You have
:11:31. > :11:34.a small number of leaders who have emerged as the top managers and
:11:35. > :11:38.Theroux Tating around the clubs and they are succeeding each other at
:11:39. > :11:41.different clubs and United made the mistake of appointing somebody who
:11:42. > :11:47.had never won anything. He was not a proven leader at all. In that sense
:11:48. > :11:50.it was a mistake. Now in terms of models of football clubs, there are
:11:51. > :11:57.four models of football clubs in Europe, there is the supporter-based
:11:58. > :12:02.club, Barcelona, ideally. There is the German model, 50% owned by
:12:03. > :12:07.supporters and 50 plus one owned by the supporter, there is the
:12:08. > :12:14.benefactor model, which is most British clerks somebody puts in a
:12:15. > :12:19.lot of money. There is the malafactor money, Liverpool and
:12:20. > :12:23.historically Manchester United, they are unique, the money is taken out
:12:24. > :12:27.of the club. All of those models have successful clubs? You can
:12:28. > :12:32.decline for many years like Liverpool if you have the wrong
:12:33. > :12:37.ownership. In United's case it is a great irony, in the NFL you have a
:12:38. > :12:41.limited to the amount of debt in a club $150 million. The only two
:12:42. > :12:44.clubs in Europe which have had leveraged buyout, Liverpool and
:12:45. > :12:52.Manchester United. They were taken over by Americans applying financial
:12:53. > :12:56.market real practices to a community-based activity. What are
:12:57. > :13:00.the lessons from how this is handled, it was said that it was a
:13:01. > :13:05.mistake to hire Moyes because he hadn't won anything. Are there wider
:13:06. > :13:09.lessons here? Yeah, people have to acknowledge football is changing. We
:13:10. > :13:12.have entered a clipboard manager revolution, to be honest. You can
:13:13. > :13:18.come through as a younger manager, you don't necessarily have to do the
:13:19. > :13:24."I have got my trophies to show you routine", but you can say "I've done
:13:25. > :13:29.my homework". Jose Mourinho at Chelsea is the ultimate example. You
:13:30. > :13:33.don't have to have a stellar playing career, but you need to show a
:13:34. > :13:38.passion, and you have the star quality to pull it off. They are
:13:39. > :13:42.popping up all over the place managers. People know as managers
:13:43. > :13:46.that is what they are good at. They are not people you remember holding
:13:47. > :13:49.up a trophy at Wembley, they never did. That but they were good at
:13:50. > :13:52.going into people's office, doing the homework, learning from the
:13:53. > :13:56.greats and putting a package together. Paul, finally to you,
:13:57. > :14:00.whoever the next manager is would you and your comrade who is were
:14:01. > :14:04.part of the Red Knights bid, would you consider putting in another
:14:05. > :14:10.deal? It has to be the right price and with the supporters. The idea is
:14:11. > :14:13.that the supporters have a say in the affairs of their club. At the
:14:14. > :14:18.moment Manchester United's owners hardly even set foot in man Chester.
:14:19. > :14:22.If you do come back to us. I agree with that Paul. That's all we have
:14:23. > :14:26.time for, but Bill George in America, Paul Marshall and Alison
:14:27. > :14:30.Rudd thank you for coming in. The Geneva deal struck last Weir
:14:31. > :14:33.over Ukraine already looked unconvincing, but tonight it feels
:14:34. > :14:38.almost like it wasn't even worth the paper it was writ on. The acting
:14:39. > :14:42.President has relaunched military operations against the pro-Russian
:14:43. > :14:49.sim thighesers in the east of the country. Oleksandr Turchynov's
:14:50. > :14:53.decision came after a politician from his own party was found dead,
:14:54. > :14:59.appearing to have been tortured. What does this announcement tonight
:15:00. > :15:06.mean? How important is it? The Geneva deal was meant to have given
:15:07. > :15:12.a road map for de-escalation of the crisis. Now it forms almost a point
:15:13. > :15:23.for new recriminations. The signatories agreed to restrain from
:15:24. > :15:25.violence and terrorist acts. Now you have this anti-terrorist action
:15:26. > :15:30.being launched in response to two murdered officials. You have Ukraine
:15:31. > :15:34.saying its National Guard battalion, these are the activists, they are in
:15:35. > :15:41.the east and ready to start the operation. And you have new
:15:42. > :15:49.rhetorical attacks today from the acting Prime Minister, Arseniy
:15:50. > :15:54.Yatsenyuk. "In this century and in the world we
:15:55. > :15:58.live in, no-one should be able to act like gangsters".
:15:59. > :16:02.What about the allegations that Russian forces have been directly
:16:03. > :16:05.involved in eastern Ukraine? There are two sides to the story, and
:16:06. > :16:10.nobody is taking the Geneva agreement seriously. The Russian
:16:11. > :16:13.side was expected by the EU, the US, the Ukrainians to vacate Government
:16:14. > :16:18.buildings, which they haven't done over the weekend. They have also
:16:19. > :16:21.been presenting new evidence, gathered by Ukrainian Security
:16:22. > :16:26.Services and amateur sleuths, that groups from Russian military
:16:27. > :16:31.intelligence, the GRU Special Forces have been active in fermenting this
:16:32. > :16:37.trouble. Now today some new pictures appeared, these two individuals
:16:38. > :16:42.here, and the beard-spotters, if we may call them that in Ukraine, have
:16:43. > :16:46.tied them to images which they have previously harvested from social
:16:47. > :16:53.media. If we look back at the next image we can see in the bottom of
:16:54. > :16:56.the screen, two photos, taken of a Russian GRU Special Forces unit
:16:57. > :17:00.before this whole Ukrainian crisis started up, on an exercise in
:17:01. > :17:04.Russia. Which the Ukrainians say those two individuals we first saw
:17:05. > :17:09.can be spotted in those pictures. They have also tied these
:17:10. > :17:12.individuals, if we look further on here, to an operation, one of them
:17:13. > :17:18.in particular on the left of the screen there, to an operation in
:17:19. > :17:23.Georgia in 2008. Their argument is this is not just spontaneous,
:17:24. > :17:26.co-ordination and key roles are being played by Russian troops,
:17:27. > :17:33.belonging to this special unit, and that's a view that America buys, for
:17:34. > :17:40.example today the US Vice President in Kiev, Joe Biden. We call on
:17:41. > :17:46.Russia to stop supporting men, hiding behind masks in unmarked
:17:47. > :17:52.uniforms, sewing unrest in eastern Ukraine. And there are also reports
:17:53. > :17:58.tonight that American journalists is being held. That will inflame things
:17:59. > :18:04.further? There have been two Ukrainian journalists detained and
:18:05. > :18:08.tonight, a man called Simon from Vice News, he has contributed to
:18:09. > :18:12.this programme. He is said to have been detained, it is said to be a
:18:13. > :18:19.provocative act. But they would see it as a response to the visit of the
:18:20. > :18:22.Vice President to Kiev. The National Union of Teachers'
:18:23. > :18:26.members traditionally spend Easter enjoying each other's company at
:18:27. > :18:30.their annual meeting. This week they confirmed yet again they are going
:18:31. > :18:34.on strike, and yet again they confirmed they de despised Michael
:18:35. > :18:38.Gove, the Education Secretary. Nothing new there, but the union is
:18:39. > :18:42.the closest thing teachers have to an official voice. And they are
:18:43. > :18:51.considering elect Agnew General Secretary from what was once called
:18:52. > :18:55.the militant tendency. Who wouldn't have wanted a day out
:18:56. > :18:59.in Brighton this weekend, thousands of teachers certainly did, they were
:19:00. > :19:03.in town for the National Union of Teachers' conference. But, while
:19:04. > :19:07.these people relax by the seaside, the biggest teaching union was
:19:08. > :19:12.inside debating pensions, pay and workload. And, if you read between
:19:13. > :19:18.the lines they were also arguing about whether they want their union
:19:19. > :19:22.to be led by the ultra left. Turning up to the conference it is pretty
:19:23. > :19:27.obvious that some unusual political groups are strongly represented. The
:19:28. > :19:31.hard left has now built up a majority on the union's executive.
:19:32. > :19:37.There is an element of the People's Front of Judea and the Judean
:19:38. > :19:44.People's Front for some of it. People like the Socialist Workers'
:19:45. > :19:47.Party, the SocialIst Party, and the alliance for liberty are well
:19:48. > :19:52.represented. When you get them into the conference room, many are
:19:53. > :19:58.unsubtle about their radicalism. Not even their language is moderate.
:19:59. > :20:01.Michael Gove, the demented Dalek on speed, who wants to exterminate
:20:02. > :20:08.anything good in education that came along since the 1950s! I would
:20:09. > :20:12.submit that teachers never like to withdraw their labour. This former
:20:13. > :20:16.NUT General Secretary fought the hard left for his whole career, but,
:20:17. > :20:22.he says, its current domination of the union is something quite new.
:20:23. > :20:27.When I first came to the union, you had a prominent Conservative who had
:20:28. > :20:30.been the treasurer, the President became a treasurer, he had another
:20:31. > :20:35.honour as President. Within the membership in various parts of the
:20:36. > :20:38.country some quite strong Conservative membership, they
:20:39. > :20:42.haven't all gone away. What they are not doing is playing as big a part
:20:43. > :20:45.in the union as they used to. I think because of the discontents
:20:46. > :20:51.within the profession, and the pressure us on the profession, and
:20:52. > :20:56.NUT members, it is still a very large membership, are such that they
:20:57. > :21:01.are not turning up to meeting and voting on the scale they should.
:21:02. > :21:10.Which only helps the more extreme left and the moderate left has lost
:21:11. > :21:15.some ground as well. Surveys show teachers are a bit more left of
:21:16. > :21:19.centre than most. But they include a sizeable minority of Conservatives
:21:20. > :21:24.and UKIP voters. That is definitely not reflected at the NUT. Senior NUT
:21:25. > :21:27.officials say because their union is the largest teachers' union, that
:21:28. > :21:36.makes them is a particular target for some hard left groups. And
:21:37. > :21:40.things may be about to get more extreme. This summer the General
:21:41. > :21:44.Secretary, Christine Blower, will need to fight to keep her role.
:21:45. > :21:49.She's on the hard left herself, but is being challenged from her own
:21:50. > :21:53.left-wing, by Martin Powell Davies, he's part of the Socialist Party,
:21:54. > :21:59.the group once known as the militant tendency. What we are debating this
:22:00. > :22:04.afternoon is my idea and others who support me, is that you can't simply
:22:05. > :22:09.have occasional one-day protest strikes, you actually need to step
:22:10. > :22:13.one a calendar and series of strikes until the Government has to take
:22:14. > :22:19.notice. That is what we are ever. After. He thinks the public would
:22:20. > :22:25.support longer strikes? I would say if you are on in London on the day
:22:26. > :22:29.of the tube strikes you would see the big amount of support. Everyone
:22:30. > :22:32.knows pay is cut and jobs are under threat, people respect people who
:22:33. > :22:37.will stand up for themselves and good luck to them. That is what we
:22:38. > :22:43.found on the picket lines on March 26th. Mr Powell Davies sun likely to
:22:44. > :22:46.win, but de-- is unlikely to win, but it has already become a battle
:22:47. > :22:50.between organised hard left factions. These people, leaping up
:22:51. > :22:54.are so called floor managers, they are a so called whip for one of the
:22:55. > :23:00.factions. They call votes that allow their blocks to manage the pace of
:23:01. > :23:03.debate. Fred Jarvis thinks that at root it is union members' lack of
:23:04. > :23:11.interest that is helping to give these groups a free rein. In my time
:23:12. > :23:16.there was hardly ever an occasion when you had candidates who returned
:23:17. > :23:22.unopposed, this time there are about 20. Returned unopposed. Some of them
:23:23. > :23:28.from the ultra left. This is reminiscent to me of student
:23:29. > :23:35.politics? Not in my time. When I ran the NUS, I ran against a communist
:23:36. > :23:41.and we beat them. The unions' revolutionary zeal has already led
:23:42. > :23:45.several NUT moderates to leave in he can SAS persituation racial. --
:23:46. > :23:49.exasperation, more strikes and militancy they say will upset
:23:50. > :23:53.parents. And while the NUT has picked fights on pensions and pay,
:23:54. > :23:58.it really isn't winning them. They ask who exactly are they
:23:59. > :24:01.representing? With us to debate that are our
:24:02. > :24:07.guest, we have the deputy General Secretary of the NUT, and John Blake
:24:08. > :24:12.one of the prominent NUT moderates who has recently left over precisely
:24:13. > :24:15.these kinds of concerns. Kevin, listening to that, hearing again
:24:16. > :24:18.that the NUT is planning to strike, hearing again that they are
:24:19. > :24:23.resisting basically all the Government's changes, and hearing
:24:24. > :24:27.that there are militants standing. Parents would be forgiven for
:24:28. > :24:30.thinking you are obsessed with your own left-wing politics rather than
:24:31. > :24:35.standards in the classroom and what is best for children? Well, if that
:24:36. > :24:38.was the entirely accurate picture of the weekend, maybe they would have
:24:39. > :24:43.justification. We spent time debating whether four is too young
:24:44. > :24:46.to test children. We have been debating the questions of primary
:24:47. > :24:51.curriculum and assessment. We are debating that Michael Gove is giving
:24:52. > :24:55.?45 million to the Harris Academy chain. And voting to strike again
:24:56. > :25:00.and hearing from militants who are planning to stand as candidates, you
:25:01. > :25:04.are still advocating policies like, that suggesting that Bob Crow is a
:25:05. > :25:07.good model? We have been discussing further strike action. You have to
:25:08. > :25:15.understand why that is. Since Michael Gove came to power eacher
:25:16. > :25:21.workloads have gone up by 10-20%. Those extra hours primary teachers
:25:22. > :25:24.are working 60 hours a week. The extra hours are not spent on
:25:25. > :25:28.preparing exciting lessons for children. John is one of the
:25:29. > :25:31.moderates, we believe you were forced out because of the rising
:25:32. > :25:37.tide of militancy, what is your experience? My experience is, I
:25:38. > :25:44.joined in 2005, it was an organisation then thinly tethered to
:25:45. > :25:46.reality. By the time I left it had detatched itself entirely.
:25:47. > :25:51.Conference is extremely unpleasant. If you are not willing to walk in
:25:52. > :25:55.the orthodoxy of the NUT it is a very narrow idea of what it means to
:25:56. > :25:59.be left-wing, of what it means to be a teacher, and what it means to be a
:26:00. > :26:03.teacher-activist. I give you one example, I gave a speech at one
:26:04. > :26:06.conference in which I suggested that a group of teachers talking about
:26:07. > :26:11.going out on a general strike was not helpful to the union or Labour
:26:12. > :26:15.movement, and I was denounced and denounced by the leader of the
:26:16. > :26:20.moderate fraction on the executive as outrageously right-wing. It is
:26:21. > :26:23.ridiculous. Are you proud of that someone saying they can't stand up
:26:24. > :26:29.and say what they say? I don't recognise that, John was the NUT rep
:26:30. > :26:34.where I was branch secretary. I encouraged John on to the local
:26:35. > :26:38.community and into the party because we are a broad church. John has
:26:39. > :26:43.decided to leave the NUT. Is it a broad church? I will say this about
:26:44. > :26:46.Kevin and Kevin is a very kind and generous trade union activist, but
:26:47. > :26:50.the branch where we were both members, after I went to conference
:26:51. > :26:55.the first time attempted to bring in a motion to ban people speaking on
:26:56. > :26:59.issues that had been predecided in tiny meetings that took place long
:27:00. > :27:04.before conference started. Who then is the NUT representing? If there is
:27:05. > :27:11.no place for moderates like John, which clearly he feels seriously
:27:12. > :27:15.there is not. Who do you purport to be representing? John has chosen to
:27:16. > :27:22.leave, he's not just criticising the NUT, it is the NASWT, saying that it
:27:23. > :27:27.was wrong to say teacher morale is so low. Generally teachers are being
:27:28. > :27:32.represented by the NUT, the voice of the teacher in classrooms around
:27:33. > :27:35.England and Wales is being represented effectively, and you
:27:36. > :27:38.have not been able to block academy schools, which you wanted, or free
:27:39. > :27:42.schools, and the pension and pay policies going ahead? We have
:27:43. > :27:47.representation in the free schools and in the academies, our joint
:27:48. > :27:54.strike action with the ATL improved the position on pensions. The joint
:27:55. > :28:02.boycott of the Sats with the NHT has worked to a point. We have stopped
:28:03. > :28:06.teacher review bodies and damaging teacher relations. It was a huge
:28:07. > :28:11.setback for Michael Gove for that body to go back in the way it did.
:28:12. > :28:14.Kevin is massively overstating the case, striking with the ATL made
:28:15. > :28:18.slight and important differences to the pension campaign, but it was
:28:19. > :28:22.Kevin and others who decided the NUT would carry that on to this point
:28:23. > :28:25.where it is another round of strike action, but because they didn't get
:28:26. > :28:29.very far on pensions we will add something else into it, this time it
:28:30. > :28:38.will be about workload or something else. It is not the case that the
:28:39. > :28:42.sats point and the NASWHT won't working with the NUT on certain
:28:43. > :28:46.things. Because the NUT is in a militant position and detatched from
:28:47. > :28:50.teachers, classroom and the mainstream of politics completely.
:28:51. > :28:55.He's completely wrong about them not being wanting to work to with us. I
:28:56. > :29:00.would like to put a particular point to you John. As a union and
:29:01. > :29:07.membership organisation isn't it, however, entirely the NUT's role to
:29:08. > :29:11.be bolshi, and radical in order to affect change. Maybe your party
:29:12. > :29:16.because you represent Labour teachers was doing a better job of
:29:17. > :29:24.opposing reforms, then you wouldn't have been to be so spiky. In one
:29:25. > :29:31.sense you are correct, it is their problem if the they wondered off and
:29:32. > :29:35.have no political power. But we are seen as a represent voice by the
:29:36. > :29:38.public and teachers, we need a voice that is sensible and capable of
:29:39. > :29:41.engaging with Government policy and being proactive and forward
:29:42. > :29:45.thinking. You talked about the overwhelming opposition to
:29:46. > :29:50.academies, there are thousands who work in academies, where are they
:29:51. > :29:54.getting the representation. They are represented at conference. When was
:29:55. > :29:58.the last time f you can remember, that the NUT actually supported a
:29:59. > :30:01.Government policy? Let me turn it round and ask when was the last time
:30:02. > :30:05.that Michael Gove listened to his critics. We are asking you the last
:30:06. > :30:12.time you supported his policy, maybe it was under the last Government? We
:30:13. > :30:15.supported Michael Gove when he said that teachers would be given
:30:16. > :30:20.anonymity for accusations by children. That was in 2010. We
:30:21. > :30:25.didn't support in closing down the London challenge, we don't support
:30:26. > :30:30.the radical expansion of academies with no evidence. He decries his
:30:31. > :30:41.opponent as the blob, and that is why teachers are so angry with him.
:30:42. > :30:47.Worried about your job, two American academics think nearly all of us
:30:48. > :30:51.should be, what they say call is the second machine age is upon us. The
:30:52. > :30:56.first time round was disastrous if you worked with your hand. The first
:30:57. > :31:00.moderate census said we worked the land or fished the seas, today that
:31:01. > :31:04.is one per cent. Because the machines took all the muscled jobs.
:31:05. > :31:10.In their place technology created huge numbers of roles where you have
:31:11. > :31:15.to use your brain. Now they account for 80% of UK employment. A new book
:31:16. > :31:20.out of MIT in Boston says the machines in the shape of robots and
:31:21. > :31:33.computers are about to destroy most of these jobs, with profound impact
:31:34. > :31:37.on our society and economy. This is how we used to think robots
:31:38. > :31:44.would takeover the earth. In reality, well it could be far
:31:45. > :31:52.scarier. Because this time the robots are after our jobs. Science
:31:53. > :31:56.has invented a new mechanical Helpmate for the former. Machines
:31:57. > :32:00.have been gathering up human jobs for centuries, now some believe we
:32:01. > :32:06.are creating a huge time of mass redundancy created by technology. I
:32:07. > :32:12.have come to MIT to meet two professors who believe we are at the
:32:13. > :32:16.point where future is very different with blistering speed. Because of
:32:17. > :32:22.technology they believe many of the jobs we depend on are simply going
:32:23. > :32:26.to disappear. Andrew and Eric have called their book The Second Machine
:32:27. > :32:32.Age, and it has policy makers worried. The reason we called the
:32:33. > :32:36.book what we did, it was a direct reference to the Industrial
:32:37. > :32:42.Revolution where the limitations of our muscles were augmented or even
:32:43. > :32:49.eliminated by the steam engine and the internal combustian engine.
:32:50. > :32:54.Today we are doing much the same for our brains for cognitive tasks. What
:32:55. > :32:58.is driving the change is the exponential rise in computing power.
:32:59. > :33:06.Today's consumer electronics would have been classed as super computers
:33:07. > :33:10.a couple of decades ago. When there are dozens of super computers around
:33:11. > :33:14.the world and they are all connected there is an explosion of data. It
:33:15. > :33:18.puts us in a place we have never been before, and that is why we are
:33:19. > :33:24.seeing the crazy science fiction advances coming now. Crazy science
:33:25. > :33:27.fiction advances like cars that can drive themselves, thought impossible
:33:28. > :33:37.just a decade ago. Not great news for lorry drivers. Crazy science
:33:38. > :33:46.fiction advances likes Baxter, a robot worker made by Re-think Rob
:33:47. > :33:52.otics. He can do menial jobs and costs half the minimum human wage in
:33:53. > :33:58.Massachusetts. Anybody can put him to work. I press a button to say
:33:59. > :34:02.close your land, lift it up, drop it in the box like, that I have already
:34:03. > :34:07.shown him the position of the other widgets here. Press one button, I'm
:34:08. > :34:14.going to put that one back, it is expecting where it is. I can just
:34:15. > :34:26.pick up my coffee while gets on with his work. Jo that were considered
:34:27. > :34:32.human only are falling to the rob ots, like warehouse picking,
:34:33. > :34:36.navigating around a space with ever-changing inventory and no two
:34:37. > :34:44.asks the same, it was all thought impossible for the machines, not any
:34:45. > :34:48.more. Autonomous robots lift up the shelves and bring them to one of the
:34:49. > :34:54.central pickers. Companies need far fewer humans. With a quickening pace
:34:55. > :35:00.the jobs under threat are creeping steadily up the education scale to
:35:01. > :35:05.graduates and professionals. The scope of task that machines can do
:35:06. > :35:12.is rapidly expanding into more high-level tasks, lawyers, some
:35:13. > :35:16.types of investment banking. At the other end truck drivers and
:35:17. > :35:27.different kinds of robotic work that used to be done by people on
:35:28. > :35:31.assembly lines. The IBM computer Watson can thrash human champions in
:35:32. > :35:37.the American game show Jeopardy. Elected every five years it has 736
:35:38. > :35:40.members from every party, Watson? What is parliament. But that is just
:35:41. > :35:45.a party trick compared to what else it can do. A new generation of
:35:46. > :35:52.doctors are helping Watson learn the language of medicine. Ingesting
:35:53. > :35:57.every available scrap of digitised medical knowledge, he's on his way
:35:58. > :36:01.to being the best diagnostic doctor, and he can treat millions at the
:36:02. > :36:05.same time. This is one of the ways jobs will disappear in the second
:36:06. > :36:09.machine age. The best in any field can capture the whole market and
:36:10. > :36:14.potentially fabulous wealth. Professions like accountany and the
:36:15. > :36:18.law are already in the frame. Previously the human best tax
:36:19. > :36:22.account didn't have the capacity to serve the entire market. But with
:36:23. > :36:27.digital goods it is different. Once you have made one copy it is trivial
:36:28. > :36:31.to make additional copies. I should say that is mostly good news. It is
:36:32. > :36:34.nice we all have access to the best of many of these different
:36:35. > :36:41.categories. As consumers it is good news. But it leads to a big
:36:42. > :36:45.reallocation. In other words, even greater wealth inequalities. But at
:36:46. > :36:49.least new jobs will be created, well don't count on it! This retail
:36:50. > :36:54.development in Boston used to be a Ford factory, here new jobs come
:36:55. > :37:00.from the rubble of the old. If the machines are able to not only
:37:01. > :37:06.outmuscle but out-brain humans, which jobs will humans do? There is
:37:07. > :37:09.no automatic guarantee these jobs will appear or they will be good
:37:10. > :37:14.wages. There is no economic law that says everyone is going to benefit
:37:15. > :37:18.from technology. It is possible for some people, even potentially a
:37:19. > :37:24.majority of people to be made worse off. What sort of society and
:37:25. > :37:31.economy could this lead to? There is a story about a Ford executive and
:37:32. > :37:36.union boss touring a newly automated car plant. The Ford executive
:37:37. > :37:41.overlooking the ranks of machines building the cars jokes to the union
:37:42. > :37:46.boss "how will you get these guys to pay union subscriptions", the union
:37:47. > :37:54.boss came back with "how are you going to get them to buy Fords? ".
:37:55. > :38:00.When it vanishes from the community, you see lots of flavours of social
:38:01. > :38:04.breakdown. For most of us these days a meaningful life has work as one of
:38:05. > :38:08.its main components, a job, a career, a trajectory in your life.
:38:09. > :38:12.If and win that goes away, what replaces it. I don't have a quick
:38:13. > :38:22.answer to that question, we better start thinking long and hard about
:38:23. > :38:26.it though. The vintage robots on display seem childish and
:38:27. > :38:33.rudimentry. There is nothing exciting about this stick creature
:38:34. > :38:39.from the 1980s. You can't say the same for the latest model. According
:38:40. > :38:44.to the two men we need to prepare for a greater world of lower
:38:45. > :38:47.equality and mass unemployment. The only place you might learn about
:38:48. > :39:00.good middle-class jobs is in a museum. Edmund, hillry and Sherpa
:39:01. > :39:06.Tensing could hardly have believed hundreds would follow them up
:39:07. > :39:11.Everest. The industry helping largely wealthy westerners up
:39:12. > :39:16.Everest has boomed. There is talk of queues on the way to the summit.
:39:17. > :39:19.After 16 mountain guides were killed in an avalanche last week, it is
:39:20. > :39:24.essentially at a stand still. Some Sherpas want to boycott the climbing
:39:25. > :39:28.season completely after the terrible accident. Unless they receive a
:39:29. > :39:33.bigger share of the revenue paid by foreign mountain years. Joining us
:39:34. > :39:38.from Salford is Alan Hinkes, the first Britain to have climbed all
:39:39. > :39:43.four of the world's peaks over 8,000ms. And we have the youngest
:39:44. > :39:47.British woman to climb Everest. Thank you for being with us. First
:39:48. > :39:55.to you Alan, how have you felt that your life is at risk? Yes, a lot of
:39:56. > :40:00.times. On 8,000m peak, on Everest, the first time I went through the
:40:01. > :40:04.ice fall my heart was in my mouth. I had read all the books and knew it
:40:05. > :40:09.was dangerous. There was a little bit of apprehension. Bordering on
:40:10. > :40:14.fear, it is a dangerous place. If Sherpas face those kinds of dangers
:40:15. > :40:20.on climbers' behalf every day surely they deserve a bigger share of the
:40:21. > :40:24.rewards? They do, and these Sherpas are friends of mine, they are
:40:25. > :40:28.fantastic, sensitive, brave people, they are lovely. But they choose
:40:29. > :40:32.this career, they are not forced to go into the ice fall, just as I
:40:33. > :40:39.choose a career as a mountain guide I'm not forced to go into the ice
:40:40. > :40:43.fall. I have been to Mont Blanc and it is a choice they make and a
:40:44. > :40:49.dangerous place, more dangerous than the British hills or Mont Blanc.
:40:50. > :40:59.They should get more money, they get well paid, they average $2500 a year
:41:00. > :41:05.-- $500 a year, most will get ten or twenty-times that for a month's
:41:06. > :41:10.work. The compensation case is about ?230, that is an insult isn't it? It
:41:11. > :41:16.is an insult. The Nepalese Government took $3 million in permit
:41:17. > :41:22.fees alone. The Sherpas are asking for an insurance pay-out of $100,000
:41:23. > :41:26.pay-out to each of the dead's families. I think that is fine
:41:27. > :41:30.considering what the Government are taking. So who is taking the money?
:41:31. > :41:34.You can always guess what the Nepalese Government is doing with
:41:35. > :41:38.the money. It might be the case they are investing in the country as a
:41:39. > :41:43.whole. Because the valley where Everest is gets lots of money, and
:41:44. > :41:47.the industries around it are impoverished. There is way of
:41:48. > :41:51.spreading the word and maybe the Government is doing it. These
:41:52. > :41:57.Sherpas are the life blood of evidence, so without them there is
:41:58. > :42:00.no investment for the Government. Given the amount of money changing
:42:01. > :42:07.hand, this is a boom industry isn't it, is that appropriate? Everest is
:42:08. > :42:11.a special case. Most of the money is made from trekking, thousands of
:42:12. > :42:16.people go trekking, particularly to Everest base camp and all around.
:42:17. > :42:21.Everest is only for two months of the year it is a big windfall for
:42:22. > :42:27.April/May, then nobody there for the rest of the year. As was said, this
:42:28. > :42:32.part of Nepal is quite wealthy because of Everest. I should point
:42:33. > :42:34.out there is not that much money for a lot of the western trekking
:42:35. > :42:41.companies, a lot of the British companies don't make vast profits
:42:42. > :42:55.from Everest. Most of them are put back into Everest, you have A a lot
:42:56. > :42:59.of money being spent. Have we lost the respect of going up the mountain
:43:00. > :43:03.in the first place? Aesthetics involved in this. I could understand
:43:04. > :43:07.if the Sherpas or the Nepalese guides as they should be called, if
:43:08. > :43:12.they decide not to go on the mountain I would understand it, they
:43:13. > :43:16.have had 13-16 of them killed. It is the mother goddess of the world,
:43:17. > :43:21.they are Buddhists and it could be bad Karma to go back on to the tar
:43:22. > :43:25.mark. I would expect it if they decided not to go back this week. It
:43:26. > :43:29.is a special case and the highest mountain in the world. Do you fear
:43:30. > :43:32.the industry, that is what it is, is now out of control? It is a very
:43:33. > :43:35.difficult question. You have got a really unique situation on Everest,
:43:36. > :43:38.you have some of the richest people in the world, meeting some of the
:43:39. > :43:45.poorest. And you have also got mother nature mixed in there. It is
:43:46. > :43:49.an explosive mix. The Nepalese Sherpas want western climbers there,
:43:50. > :43:53.they want as many as they can. Maybe there is a limit, but the more
:43:54. > :43:57.people who come to their mountain the richer they get. And they can
:43:58. > :44:03.support their children. It is not so much about it being horrible
:44:04. > :44:07.industry, as you put it, it is a mountain, like others, where
:44:08. > :44:12.hundreds of people go up every year and it doesn't get the same bad
:44:13. > :44:17.press. Is it possible to go up Everest without a mountain guide,
:44:18. > :44:21.could it be attempted without Sherpas if they go back to the
:44:22. > :44:26.mountain? I don't think it would be, the ice the Sherpas are going
:44:27. > :44:30.through was maintained by the Sherpas, they fix ladders and ropes,
:44:31. > :44:34.the mountain changes constantly without their knowledge, skills and
:44:35. > :44:38.expertise, I think it would be very difficult to fix a safe route for
:44:39. > :44:45.the most part of the climbers there. There are people who go to Everest
:44:46. > :44:51.without wanting to shout for help, but they are few and far between.
:44:52. > :45:00.Before we go. Get your stopwatches ready, Ben Lee is the Guinness
:45:01. > :45:03.record world holder for the fastest violinist. We give him the
:45:04. > :45:08.opportunity for a dry run tonight. The piece is Flight of the
:45:09. > :46:23.Bumblebee, the choice is four. 4.55. More showers around in the rest of
:46:24. > :46:24.the week, the heavy showers will die away as we go through the