:00:00. > :00:11.Tonight Vladimir Putin sends out a warning to the US that Russia will
:00:12. > :00:15.respond if its interests in Ukraine are attacked. What kind of Russia is
:00:16. > :00:21.this man trying to remake? We will be speaking to the Pulitzer
:00:22. > :00:26.Prize-winning editor of the New Yorker who witnessed the fall of
:00:27. > :00:27.communism close up and has been following Vladimir Putin's every
:00:28. > :00:31.turn. What happened to this likely lad, we
:00:32. > :00:36.learn that Boris could announce his decision on a return to Westminster
:00:37. > :01:24.as early as June. I would love to play Juliet!
:01:25. > :01:28.running the show in the Ukraine. There was a reference to the brief
:01:29. > :01:32.war in Georgia over the region of South Ossetia, at the same time
:01:33. > :01:36.Russia announced it is conducting a military drill in the region
:01:37. > :01:48.bordering Ukraine. For Vladimir Putin the conflict with Ukraine has
:01:49. > :01:58.become a defining moment of his PRESIDENCY. WHAT IS THE END GAME?
:01:59. > :02:05.The Russian spring, from Crimea, eastern Ukraine and elsewhere. Each
:02:06. > :02:11.new self-pro-claimed Republic has its flag, emblems and slogans. Part
:02:12. > :02:15.of an ideology championed by the Kremlin and Vladimir Putin. I think
:02:16. > :02:23.it is a very old doctrine coming back in a very surprising form.
:02:24. > :02:27.Europeans in the 1870s or 18930 -- 1930s would have found it familiar
:02:28. > :02:34.as an idea. It is extremely dangerous doctrine to say that a
:02:35. > :02:38.state has so much responsibility for the people who just speak its own
:02:39. > :02:44.language and share its culture, even if they are not its citizen that is
:02:45. > :02:49.it can take chunks of territory. Russia's presidency is surrounded by
:02:50. > :02:53.imperial pomp, enabled with far-reaches powers. In a culture
:02:54. > :02:57.where manly Vertonghen yous are still prized in an unself-conscious
:02:58. > :03:03.ways, the office has given Mr Putin the chance to act decisively and to
:03:04. > :03:11.the delight of many of his people. His people can see that in Kiev
:03:12. > :03:16.power is taken illegally which the criminal junta of ultra
:03:17. > :03:26.nationalists, who served not the citizens of Ukraine but to
:03:27. > :03:33.Washington. This illegal junta used force against Ukrainian citizens and
:03:34. > :03:39.this illegal junta wants to ban the Russian language. The western hue
:03:40. > :03:43.and cry about gay rights and the panned Pussy Riot, some pro-Russians
:03:44. > :04:30.saw signs of a plot against them. With new exercises reported today,
:04:31. > :04:33.Russia's army stands ready to enter Ukraine, Foreign Minister Lavrov
:04:34. > :04:37.made clear this afternoon they could do in defence of the Russian
:04:38. > :04:42.minority. Some Putin supporters say the army should go in to protect
:04:43. > :04:47.most Ukrainians, anyone who speaks Russian. The Russian public opinion
:04:48. > :04:53.would support the use of Russian troops on the Ukrainian territory or
:04:54. > :04:59.not. It depends on circumstances of such a decision. If Vladimir Putin
:05:00. > :05:06.will ask just troops to go, maybe it will be not supported. But if there
:05:07. > :05:12.will be some bloodshed agonised by the illegal junta Russian public
:05:13. > :05:18.opinion would support Russian troops saving lives of Russians. This new
:05:19. > :05:24.assertiveness might leave western countries reeling. But it finds
:05:25. > :05:29.admirers too. I think that narrative, which is also one about
:05:30. > :05:36.standing up to the west and poking Uncle Sam in the eye has
:05:37. > :05:40.considerable appeal beyond the Russian borders, beyond the Russian
:05:41. > :05:47.world. I just spent two weeks in China and it was striking how much
:05:48. > :05:53.resonance there actually was for Putin in China. I'm told even in
:05:54. > :05:57.India. Many Russians, stranded in other countries by the collapse of
:05:58. > :06:03.the Soviet Union, now look to President Putin. How far he can go
:06:04. > :06:08.in eastern Ukraine and whether the model can be extended elsewhere are
:06:09. > :06:12.questions now actively being considered in the Kremlin.
:06:13. > :06:16.We have the Editor in Chief of the New Yorker magazine, and former
:06:17. > :06:23.Moscow correspondent for the Washington Post, his book, lip
:06:24. > :06:31.anyone's Tomb, won the Pulitzer Prize for fiction. What do you think
:06:32. > :06:34.is Putin's end game? It was right in the introduction when you said it
:06:35. > :06:46.was a lot about obscuring the problems he has domestically. People
:06:47. > :06:49.in Russia were becomes prosperous in ways they never had before, and
:06:50. > :06:54.power was becoming more stable in Russia. And his popularity was firm.
:06:55. > :07:00.Now he has a situation where the economy has slowed to zero, he has a
:07:01. > :07:04.choice, can he go before his people and admit that the economic
:07:05. > :07:09.situation is what it is, or can he gain popularity by whipping up
:07:10. > :07:14.nationalist fervour in places like the Ukraine. He has chosen,
:07:15. > :07:18.tragically this second category. And I think above all it is terrible for
:07:19. > :07:26.Russia to say nothing of a sovereign state known as Ukraine. The idea
:07:27. > :07:30.that the United States... I wonder what you made of the analysis there,
:07:31. > :07:35.that there is a dangerous position for a state to be in, to say that it
:07:36. > :07:44.is going to protect all Russian speakers and people of Russian
:07:45. > :07:49.culture. That is a cimera, you can't possibly follow that through? This
:07:50. > :07:55.is a problem born of the fall of the Soviet Union. There were the ethnic
:07:56. > :08:01.mix created over decades, landed where it landed. And there certainly
:08:02. > :08:05.are Russian speakers in the eastern Ukraine and northern Kazakhstan and
:08:06. > :08:10.the Baltic states. And some of them feel a dual identity. But the idea
:08:11. > :08:14.that some how the majority of people, anything close to it in
:08:15. > :08:20.Ukraine are welcoming Russian military and political incursion and
:08:21. > :08:25.invasion is a terrible error of analysis, and yet it is great banner
:08:26. > :08:29.of propaganda in Russia on TV today. So various things are going on here,
:08:30. > :08:33.the economy is crashing, another quarter the same as this one and it
:08:34. > :08:36.will go into recession and yet there is huge capital flight. At the same
:08:37. > :08:39.time wouldn't it be fair to say from what you have seen, and I know you
:08:40. > :08:44.were there recently because of Sochi, that actually he's clamping
:08:45. > :08:48.down again, there is a huge clamp down on the intelligence, a
:08:49. > :08:57.clampdown on dissidents, a clampdown on the liberals? It is not just
:08:58. > :09:01.liberals, it is anybody that is a free thinker or has any kind of
:09:02. > :09:06.opposition to the Government. Look if you were to do what'sness radio
:09:07. > :09:10.with the Russian economy, it would endanger a lot of the people around
:09:11. > :09:15.Putin and Putin himself. He's not willing to do that. His cronies
:09:16. > :09:23.aren't willing to do that, they are cornered and they have gone to an
:09:24. > :09:27.old strategy of hypernationalism, culture conservatism, that is where
:09:28. > :09:31.the gay issue comes into play. And I think it is right to call it
:09:32. > :09:37.dangerous. Looking at it from the other side, do you think that
:09:38. > :09:42.President Obama has mis-stepped over this. Did he not take seriously
:09:43. > :09:48.enough Russia and its concerns. In a way has he a role to play in this
:09:49. > :09:51.problem, and he may end up leaving the White House with relations
:09:52. > :09:58.between Russia and America worse than at any time before Ronald
:09:59. > :10:01.Regan. The United States mistakes recently and over decades are well
:10:02. > :10:08.known and obvious. They range from Iraq to a triumphalism that occurred
:10:09. > :10:11.in the 1990s, that was in hindsight a terrible strategic mistake. The
:10:12. > :10:18.idea that the United States would go on and on in the post-Soviet era as
:10:19. > :10:23.a power was a dedevolution, not only in the United States by the world.
:10:24. > :10:27.Remember what Russia is, Russia has an economy the size of Italy. It
:10:28. > :10:31.wants to assert itself as a superpower, and the only thing that
:10:32. > :10:36.makes it a superpower, alas and unfortunately is its nuclear
:10:37. > :10:41.weapons. I think Putin is playing a game of concealing for his on
:10:42. > :10:45.short-term political game a tragic situation. Because to reform Russia
:10:46. > :10:50.in ways that it needs to requires too much of him, and it threatens
:10:51. > :10:55.him, it threatens his circle and that he's not willing to do. You
:10:56. > :10:59.cannot underestimate the power of totalist propaganda that you see on
:11:00. > :11:04.state television in Russia. Yes, his popularity is 80%, but that has a
:11:05. > :11:08.lot to do with the way information is transmitted and even the Internet
:11:09. > :11:14.is being cracked down on in Russia, which you hadn't seen before. Thank
:11:15. > :11:19.you very much for joining us. Statistics suggest that the
:11:20. > :11:21.incidence of violent crime has fallen inexorably over recent years,
:11:22. > :11:26.halving in this country over the past decade without anyone truly
:11:27. > :11:30.understanding why. Now a new study by Cardiff University, tracking
:11:31. > :11:35.treatment for victims of violent crime at A departments in England
:11:36. > :11:41.and Wales suggests the reason for the drop is a less macho culture,
:11:42. > :11:44.and also because fewer young people are drinking because of cost and
:11:45. > :11:51.because society is changing and across the western world. Preparing
:11:52. > :11:59.to fight, with the rules of engagment made clear. At this
:12:00. > :12:02.academy in East London, boxing is a key part of the curriculum. For
:12:03. > :12:07.teenagers who faced exclusion at their mainstream schools. Instead
:12:08. > :12:11.they do their GCSEs here, and learn that violence is never OK, and that
:12:12. > :12:17.sparring in the ring can help them combat it. It is the discipline. In
:12:18. > :12:21.what way? If you are out with your friends and they want to encourage
:12:22. > :12:24.you to do something bad, you stop and think about what will happen if
:12:25. > :12:27.you go home or the police get involved. You would think you were
:12:28. > :12:35.more violent before you came here? Yeah. That is a big yeah. In what
:12:36. > :12:41.way? I was more tempted to fightout side and do -- fight outside, but
:12:42. > :12:46.being here I learn there is more things in life than fighting
:12:47. > :12:51.outside. There is a decrease in violent incidences since 2013, the
:12:52. > :12:58.fifth consecutive year figures have fallen. Most violent crime is
:12:59. > :13:05.committed by people under 30. But it seems youngsters are getting better
:13:06. > :13:09.behaved, and far less aggressive. In here boxing is used as a way to
:13:10. > :13:12.channel aggression, but perhaps unsurprisingly it doesn't make it
:13:13. > :13:17.into the list of explanations for why violence is down more generally.
:13:18. > :13:21.It might sound counterintuitive, but a fall in disposable income is one
:13:22. > :13:26.possible cause, linked as it is to the decline in "binge drinking" and
:13:27. > :13:33.drug taking. Improved public health is another reason suggested, as is
:13:34. > :13:37.better crime prevention. For the boxing academy, combatting violence
:13:38. > :13:40.is about early intervention. It is no good just telling young people
:13:41. > :13:44.not to be violent. You have to give them the tools to analyse the
:13:45. > :13:48.background, work out their trigger points, confront the conflict, if
:13:49. > :13:52.you like, and develop strategies to cope with it and therefore reduce
:13:53. > :13:56.the likelihood of it happening. With more and more of that emotional
:13:57. > :14:01.intelligence-style teaching going on, young people are definitely
:14:02. > :14:09.responding positively. Youth-led violent crime used to lead the air
:14:10. > :14:17.waves. This was the 1950s, when a gang was terrorising bank staff.
:14:18. > :14:20.More recently British town centres became no-go zones at weekends when
:14:21. > :14:23.fighting followed boozing as night followed day. But police and other
:14:24. > :14:29.agencies working together has paid off. Plus there is a new attitude to
:14:30. > :14:34.drink and drugs amongst many young people that might just surprise
:14:35. > :14:40.their parents. These youngsters are ambassadors for the youth charity,
:14:41. > :14:46.Just 4. 4 Kids. You need to realise your boundaries and people are
:14:47. > :14:50.getting alcohol poisoning and people are reading newspapers and realising
:14:51. > :14:52.they can't go too far. People are being young people but recognising
:14:53. > :14:56.there are boundaries. Perhaps the fall in violence is also down to how
:14:57. > :15:01.much family attention modern children get. In 1974 full-time
:15:02. > :15:06.mothers with children under four and no job sent 77 minutes a day on
:15:07. > :15:11.childcare, that rose to 202 minutes by 2005. Mothers working more than
:15:12. > :15:16.four hours a day also increased childcare time from 25-97 minutes a
:15:17. > :15:21.day, they are spending more time on childcare than full-time mothers
:15:22. > :15:26.were 40 years ago. The most comfortable place in my area is my
:15:27. > :15:31.house, my mum and my little brother. Does your mum work? She works. My
:15:32. > :15:34.dad takes me football, that keeps me away from violence. Whatever the
:15:35. > :15:38.reasons for the fall in violence and violent crime, here they say
:15:39. > :15:42.attitudes to young people still haven't changed. How do you think
:15:43. > :15:51.you are seen by society? As criminals. That is how it feels? It
:15:52. > :15:58.feels. Hoodlums and hood-rats. But you are not? Yeah, you are! No
:15:59. > :16:02.matter what others say, these young people are now focussed away from
:16:03. > :16:09.violence. On the goals that will give them a better future. Joining
:16:10. > :16:18.me now from Boston is the author of The Better Angels of our Nature. Why
:16:19. > :16:22.Violence has Declined, and a writer for the Economist, and also the
:16:23. > :16:29.Hackney heroine, after the riots in London in 2011, when a video of her
:16:30. > :16:33.berating rioters in her native Hackney went violent. These figures
:16:34. > :16:39.showing violent crime is on the decrease, does it look like that
:16:40. > :16:45.where you live? Nowhere I live, I'm afraid. I have to sadly say it is
:16:46. > :16:49.not happening in and around most of the areas I connect with. Just
:16:50. > :16:55.recently we have had a young boy shooting a young girl in Hackney. We
:16:56. > :17:00.have had a gentleman killing his partner and his child, again today
:17:01. > :17:07.on the news there is a mother who has killed her three children. All
:17:08. > :17:12.exceptional circumstances, but it is still a violent crime. Of course the
:17:13. > :17:15.death of the three children today is still an allegation that it was the
:17:16. > :17:20.mother that was involved in that crime. But Daniel, do you think that
:17:21. > :17:24.what we're seeing here is a result of a changing society, although not
:17:25. > :17:29.one that Pauline recognises locally, or is there something fundamentally
:17:30. > :17:33.changing in our society? I think there is a changing society, but to
:17:34. > :17:36.do with an awful lot of interventions at once. Your report
:17:37. > :17:40.raised a view of them. Parenting, contrary to politicians, has
:17:41. > :17:46.actually got a lot better. But there is myriad things like that. I mean
:17:47. > :17:50.the way we approach crime, the way we tackle crime and prevent crime
:17:51. > :17:53.has got better. If you look at things that were common 20 years
:17:54. > :17:59.ago, bank robbery, that is harder. Because of CCTV? Yeah, but things
:18:00. > :18:02.like car immobilisers. Don't you think they find other ways of
:18:03. > :18:11.getting in there? I don't think they do. I dug up a statistic today,
:18:12. > :18:16.107,000 kids entered the criminal justice system for violent offences,
:18:17. > :18:21.there is a four fold drop now. Do you think there is amongst young
:18:22. > :18:27.people a less propensity to commit crime. Is there a fundamental
:18:28. > :18:31.societal change? There is a change, a long-running historical change,
:18:32. > :18:35.going back to the Middle Ages the rate of violent crime in western
:18:36. > :18:43.countries has just plummeted, then there was a little up-tick in the
:18:44. > :18:48.1960s and this is a reversal of the up-tick. In general there has been
:18:49. > :18:52.less tolerance of violence as a way of establishing one's manhood and
:18:53. > :19:00.honour, and more emphasis on dignity and controlling your emotions and on
:19:01. > :19:05.being more of a gentleman. Why is that happening? It probably is
:19:06. > :19:10.triggered by a number of ways of trying to control violence. Most
:19:11. > :19:15.probably Government and policing. That has been the trend that drove
:19:16. > :19:19.most of the rate of violent crime down over the centuries, there was a
:19:20. > :19:22.renewal of energy after the crime burst of the 1960s when after a
:19:23. > :19:25.couple of decades, communities all over the west got sick of the rate
:19:26. > :19:30.of crime and started to do various things about it. It is not
:19:31. > :19:35.inherently that human nature is changing for the better? I don't
:19:36. > :19:40.think human nature is changing, but I think human nature has many
:19:41. > :19:45.components, there is a part of us that reacts angrily to insults and
:19:46. > :19:48.frustrations as in the computer repair technique called precussive
:19:49. > :19:51.maintenance, something goes wrong and you want to whack something. On
:19:52. > :19:55.the other hand there is another part of human nature that can anticipate
:19:56. > :20:00.the future, and can inhibit these impulses to lash out. I think when
:20:01. > :20:05.you change social institutions, you can give self-control and long-term
:20:06. > :20:10.planning the upper hand, so you are tilting one aspect of human nature
:20:11. > :20:14.against another. This is precisely it, Stephen has explained well in
:20:15. > :20:20.his book over 1,000 years why crime has increased in those decades from
:20:21. > :20:24.the 60s, # 0s and 80s. What we have seen over the last 30 years across
:20:25. > :20:28.the board in western countries, little ways we have found of making
:20:29. > :20:32.things work better. Things that we have improved institutionally have
:20:33. > :20:34.changed. Tell me where have you done this and where did you get the
:20:35. > :20:39.statistics from, and where did you do your research to find it. I walk
:20:40. > :20:44.out on the streets every day, every day I'm out there, with the people,
:20:45. > :20:49.you know, on grassroots level, ghetto level, whatever way you want
:20:50. > :20:53.to class it, but I'm out there and I'm seeing crime every day. Pauline
:20:54. > :20:57.I'm wondering if part of the thing is actually it doesn't contribute to
:20:58. > :21:00.the statistics, because a lot of the crime you are seeing goes
:21:01. > :21:04.unreported? There you go. So how can they get a right balance, I don't
:21:05. > :21:09.understand. We actually have a very good crime statistics, it was based
:21:10. > :21:13.on the survey, essentially we ring up 60,000 people and say what crimes
:21:14. > :21:17.have you been a victim of. The crime statistics are pretty good and we
:21:18. > :21:20.have hospital admissions? Why is it only now that we are in the last
:21:21. > :21:25.decade coming to understand, or see why this is changing? I think it is
:21:26. > :21:30.only recently become so apparent in Britain because certain types of
:21:31. > :21:33.crimes were still rising into the mid-noughties, things like knife
:21:34. > :21:37.crime, even the crime has been fouling since 1995, it has been
:21:38. > :21:41.quite easy to point to something getting worse. But now everything is
:21:42. > :21:47.falling. Have you done research into the gun crime. I have. Can I finish
:21:48. > :21:52.up. The number of shootings has fallen by 80%. That is not the
:21:53. > :21:55.question I wanted to ask, I wanted to ask where are the guns coming
:21:56. > :22:02.from and getting on the streets. They are in less and less numbers.
:22:03. > :22:07.One area you will be in accord is over the idea is why we are not
:22:08. > :22:11.seeing a commensurate reduction in domestic violence? We do, estimates
:22:12. > :22:16.of domestic violence are also down. And maybe for some of the same
:22:17. > :22:19.reasons, maybe we are becoming increasingly intolerant of violence,
:22:20. > :22:24.it is considered a mark of absolute shame to beat up or threaten your
:22:25. > :22:29.intimate partner. Where as that was a matter of comedy and jokes for
:22:30. > :22:34.much of the 20th century. Also there are better social service agencies,
:22:35. > :22:40.places that women who are terrorised by spouses or boyfriends can escape
:22:41. > :22:45.or complain, and less tolerance on the police on domestic violence, and
:22:46. > :22:49.less tolerance for other violent crime. Is this a prosession or
:22:50. > :22:55.something that might kick it all off again, like the riots we had in
:22:56. > :23:01.2011, is this a definite trajectory or could we see it reversed? We
:23:02. > :23:06.could see it reversed. I think unlike the 1960s and 1970s, where
:23:07. > :23:11.there was a deep pessimism, that we could ever take it back to cities.
:23:12. > :23:16.How do you propose to reverse it? Could it be reversed ore become
:23:17. > :23:20.worse again. Sorry, my misunderstanding. It could become
:23:21. > :23:24.right again. But there has to be a lot more input into this than just
:23:25. > :23:28.us sitting here on a TV, having a debate. We need to get out there,
:23:29. > :23:32.the people need to get out there and work on this. Thank you all very
:23:33. > :23:36.much indeed. There is only one man who could have said my chances of
:23:37. > :23:48.being PM are about as good as finding he will visit on Mars or
:23:49. > :23:55.being re-- Elvis on Mars! But he know Boris Johnson tries to put you
:23:56. > :23:58.off. Newsnight understands he may soon announce his decision to return
:23:59. > :24:12.to Westminster and not foot about on the backbenches, at least not for
:24:13. > :24:16.more than five minutes. I'm getting on with my job. Being Mayor of
:24:17. > :24:20.London is the most fantastic job. What I would rather do is get on
:24:21. > :24:24.with my job of running the city. You heard the man, he's just getting on
:24:25. > :24:28.with the job. Why then is it becoming increasingly difficult to
:24:29. > :24:32.find anyone round here who still believes that. Perhaps that's
:24:33. > :24:35.because beneath the distinctly uncool exterior, the handle bars,
:24:36. > :24:40.the floppy fringe, and the quotations from Virgil, there lurks
:24:41. > :24:46.the beating heart of a man still deeply ambitious for the very top
:24:47. > :24:49.job in politics? I would be amazed if at the next general election
:24:50. > :24:53.there is not in some corner of England a Boris Johnson standing for
:24:54. > :24:58.election. He has not finished his political career. I think he's just
:24:59. > :25:01.getting started. Put bluntly, the concept of Boris Johnson not
:25:02. > :25:06.standing as an MP is pretty hard to imagine. Indeed Westminster's
:25:07. > :25:10.favourite parlour game has been to guess which seat and when an
:25:11. > :25:15.announcement would come. Colonel Mustard, there is an image to
:25:16. > :25:19.conjure, think Cluedo without the lead piping. Officially no decision
:25:20. > :25:22.has been made, once you take out the summer, conference season, and the
:25:23. > :25:26.upcoming elections, time is getting short. I understand an announcement
:25:27. > :25:30.could come as early as June, once the European and local elections are
:25:31. > :25:34.safely out of the way. What he can't afford is anything that starts to
:25:35. > :25:38.become what one source described to me as the Boris soap opera
:25:39. > :25:43.distraction. So why are things hotting up now? Quite simply because
:25:44. > :25:48.the PM, David Cameron, has extended the invitation. Last month in the
:25:49. > :25:55.Sun the PM made clear he does want Boris to be part of the line-up,
:25:56. > :26:01.telling James Cordon, more readily than he meant, he wanted his top
:26:02. > :26:05.striker. Football analogies can be dubious, but it may fit well, the
:26:06. > :26:10.Cameron plan is to present a top team to the electorate before May
:26:11. > :26:14.2015. You take the likes of Hague, Osbourne, Cameron and Michael Gove,
:26:15. > :26:19.and throw in Johnson for good measure, and you have a cabinet of
:26:20. > :26:24.big beasts. He wants to put on show a proven squad, rather than the team
:26:25. > :26:29.of nobodies he thinks Labour will offer up. One of the unknowns is
:26:30. > :26:33.what George Osborne makes of any Boris return, there may be mixed
:26:34. > :26:37.emotions, incentives even, as campaign strategist he will want to
:26:38. > :26:41.cement a Tory majority whatever cost. He knows if Cameron fails he
:26:42. > :26:44.fails too. When it comes to that leadership bid, potentially,
:26:45. > :26:50.eventually, the two could be rivals and that could spell out a very
:26:51. > :26:55.different story. Already there is huge tension between Team Boris and
:26:56. > :26:59.Team George Osborne. It is even to hear even senior Tories talk with
:27:00. > :27:05.each other about which side they are on. Imagining some 2018 run off. But
:27:06. > :27:10.politicians are mental chess players, and Boris Johnson features
:27:11. > :27:14.at a great big Queen in the chess board and George Osborne being the
:27:15. > :27:18.rival Queen. Many Tories are wondering how this will play out and
:27:19. > :27:22.beginning to take sides behind one of these two men. The big question
:27:23. > :27:28.is which seats will be freed up and where would make geographic sense
:27:29. > :27:33.for the man who will take the day job of the London mayor. George
:27:34. > :27:39.Young could be one, he's standing down. Or the seat of Andrew
:27:40. > :27:50.Lansley's in south Cambridgeshire if he was the new EU minister. Peter
:27:51. > :27:54.Tapsal and Patrick Mercer are also standing down. Then there is London,
:27:55. > :27:57.seats in Bromley and Beckenham, Uxbridge and Richmond, often
:27:58. > :28:01.mentioned yet all four MPs there have told me today they are not
:28:02. > :28:06.standing down. What are you left with? Kensington and Chelsea might
:28:07. > :28:12.sound obvious, but no fine from Malcolm Rifkind he's willing to give
:28:13. > :28:15.up that prize yet. Cameron is the insider, Boris is the outsider, he
:28:16. > :28:20.doesn't have a great gang of people ready to take over or the key
:28:21. > :28:23.installations. The bookies' odds on a Boris Johnson MP have never been
:28:24. > :28:31.shorter, that perhaps is for others to say. As the classic scholar
:28:32. > :28:37.himself might put it even if everyone else does he won't. What
:28:38. > :28:42.happens if you lose everything? You go bankrupt. It is a question which
:28:43. > :28:46.may face more of us if interest rates rise, what happens when
:28:47. > :28:51.discharging the debt can cost you many times over. Sometimes debtors
:28:52. > :28:54.have no choice but to allow professionals called insolvency
:28:55. > :28:57.practitioners to manage their affairs, the Government is
:28:58. > :29:01.increasingly concerned that the fees they charge can be very high. Even
:29:02. > :29:07.over a small debt of just several thousand pounds, fees can bring the
:29:08. > :29:12.total bill to tens of thousands. The consequences can be devastating, as
:29:13. > :29:20.Richard Watson has been finding out in a report made by Fire Crest
:29:21. > :29:23.Films. Debtor, bankrupt, terms which instill fear and shame, for friends
:29:24. > :29:28.and family the stakes can be very high. When people can't pay,
:29:29. > :29:34.professionals are brought in to handle their assets, but they charge
:29:35. > :29:38.fees, often by the hour. The Government is reviewing the level of
:29:39. > :29:41.fees across the insolvency business. We have also been investigating fees
:29:42. > :29:47.charged by lawyers and accountants when things go wrong. And some of
:29:48. > :29:55.what we found gives rise to serious cause for concern. Alan Town, 55,
:29:56. > :30:01.used to live in his own home. After being made bankrupt he has moved
:30:02. > :30:04.back in with his 92-year-old father. I'm very lucky I have had the
:30:05. > :30:09.support of my family. A lot of people, however, do not have that
:30:10. > :30:13.sort of support, so if their properties are lost they would be
:30:14. > :30:17.out on the streets. Alan used to live in a flat he owned outright
:30:18. > :30:23.here in South-East London. It was forcibly sold after he was made
:30:24. > :30:30.bankrupt over unpaid council tax of ?7,000, other debts brought the
:30:31. > :30:35.total amount owed to ?27,000. In bankruptcy the costs began to rise
:30:36. > :30:41.steeply, ?13,000 of fees were payable to the Government, called
:30:42. > :30:45.Secretary of State fees, and ?11,000 were legal fees, but the single
:30:46. > :30:50.biggest cost came from fees charged by what is known as a trustee in
:30:51. > :30:55.bankruptcy, appointed to sell assets so creditors can be paid, ?36,000
:30:56. > :31:00.were from Alan's trustee, who worked for a big firm of accountants. The
:31:01. > :31:06.total cost of bankruptcy including his initial debts came to just under
:31:07. > :31:13.?100,000. His flat was sold to pay the bill. The trustee told the
:31:14. > :31:17.family that the reason costs were so high was because Alan was
:31:18. > :31:23.obstructive and didn't engage in the process. In Alan Town's case his
:31:24. > :31:29.trustee in bankruptcy was from a company now owned by accountany
:31:30. > :31:34.giant Baker Tilly, we asked him to explain the fees run up over three
:31:35. > :31:39.years. They told us they didn't think it was appropriate to comment
:31:40. > :31:44.on individual cases. So what are trustees' fees? They are usually
:31:45. > :31:48.charged in bankruptcy by insolvency practitioners. Their job is to
:31:49. > :31:52.realise assets of the bankrupt to pay creditors what they are owed.
:31:53. > :32:00.Critics argue the way they are currently paid often by the hour,
:32:01. > :32:06.can send bills sky high. There are a very, very high chargeout rates,
:32:07. > :32:11.even ordinary is three figures plus, it is very, very lucrative, it is
:32:12. > :32:14.virtually a license to print money. The minister responsible for
:32:15. > :32:18.insolvency has been consulting with the industry. We are certainly
:32:19. > :32:24.concerned in Government about the level of fees, we have just closed a
:32:25. > :32:28.consultation looking at how we can change the way that fees are
:32:29. > :32:33.charged, we're looking at flat rate fees and fees as a proportion of
:32:34. > :32:39.asset that is are recovered and so on, we are looking at a variety of
:32:40. > :32:43.different options. But the insolvency industry opposes the
:32:44. > :32:46.ideas of fixed fees. The fixed fee idea has been put forward by
:32:47. > :32:49.Government in its recent consultation. We actually don't
:32:50. > :32:53.think that is the right way to go, and the reason we don't think that
:32:54. > :32:57.is the case is we don't think there is any evidence to show that will
:32:58. > :33:02.work. The report which lies behind the Government's plans for reform
:33:03. > :33:06.raises particular concern about small personal bankruptcy where
:33:07. > :33:13.there is a family home at stake. Often fees rise massively when
:33:14. > :33:18.people fight to avoid paying debts. For 30 years Peter Williams lived
:33:19. > :33:24.and worked in his house in Bedfordshire, but astonishingly a
:33:25. > :33:29.?1350 debt he owed to his council spiralled into an ?80,000 bill. His
:33:30. > :33:35.family says it cost Peter his home and his life. I was totally
:33:36. > :33:43.appalled, absolutely appalled, and could not believe it. A debt of
:33:44. > :33:50.?1350 and to actually pursue it in this way, to make somebody bankrupt
:33:51. > :33:54.is beyond belief. Colleagues say Peter Williams was a brilliant
:33:55. > :34:00.inventor, but his private life started falling apart after he fell
:34:01. > :34:04.ill in the 1990s. Friends and family say he was vulnerable. Council tax
:34:05. > :34:09.bills went unpaid for almost ten years. The council says he had
:34:10. > :34:13.plenty of chances to settle. Eventually he was made bankrupt, he
:34:14. > :34:20.paid some council tax, but with legal fees he still owed around
:34:21. > :34:25.?1350. The accountany firm Grant Thornton was appointed at Peter's
:34:26. > :34:28.trustee in bankruptcy, that meant they handled his assets, like his
:34:29. > :34:34.house here, to make sure his debts with were paid. The fees for Peter
:34:35. > :34:39.Williams' bankruptcy began to climb. In 2010 his friend asked the council
:34:40. > :34:47.for breakdown of the bill. They wrote back to us and told us that
:34:48. > :34:51.they will not tell us how the debt was broken down, because it will
:34:52. > :34:57.further inflate the debt if they did. As in most insolvency Grant
:34:58. > :35:04.Thornton was charging by the hour. A partner is charged out at ?450 an
:35:05. > :35:09.hour. An administrator it is more than ?150 an hour, even for
:35:10. > :35:16.assistants and support staff it is over ?140 an hour. Soon the bill was
:35:17. > :35:21.in the tens of thousands. Peter Williams' house was to be sold to
:35:22. > :35:26.pay this and other bills. Finally a date in February 2012 was set for
:35:27. > :35:32.Peter's eviction, on that day a policeman called at his sister's
:35:33. > :35:40.house. He told -- He told me that my brother had died. I just couldn't
:35:41. > :35:49.believe it, because I didn't know anything about what had been going
:35:50. > :35:54.on. I just could not believe it. Peter Williams had taken his own
:35:55. > :36:02.life. After his death his family is told the costs of his bankruptcy,
:36:03. > :36:09.nearly ?80,000. More than ?27,000 were fees charged by Grant Thornton
:36:10. > :36:12.as trustee. I was horrified. Absolutely horrified, the minute
:36:13. > :36:21.trustees in bankruptcy are brought in there is a huge charge. Grant
:36:22. > :36:24.Thornton told Newsnight that the family have their deepest
:36:25. > :36:28.sympathies, they said the prosession of the bankruptcy required numerous
:36:29. > :36:31.court hearings all of which necessarily contributed to the time
:36:32. > :36:39.and costs involved. They also said they agreed to repeated delves of
:36:40. > :36:44.the possession order to -- deferral order to allow Mr Williams to
:36:45. > :36:50.explore his options. Was it right to force him into bankruptcy over such
:36:51. > :36:55.a small debt in the first place. Currently those owing ?750 can be
:36:56. > :36:59.forced into bankruptcy by law. The level of ?750 in 1986 and times have
:37:00. > :37:04.changed and what is appropriate is different now. I'm looking at it to
:37:05. > :37:09.see if the threshold needs to be increased. Central Bedfordshire
:37:10. > :37:13.council said they have always recognised the tragic nature of
:37:14. > :37:18.Peter Williams' death, but for more than a decade he didn't pay the
:37:19. > :37:24.council tax. They distanced themselves and said the debt that
:37:25. > :37:28.ultimately led to action to repossess Mr Williams' home related
:37:29. > :37:34.to the costs pursued by Grant Thornton, which were entirely
:37:35. > :37:38.outside the council's control. The insolvency profession has currently
:37:39. > :37:43.eight, yes eight regulators, who people can complain to if they feel
:37:44. > :37:47.they have been treated unfairly. They cannot assess the level of fees
:37:48. > :37:50.charged by trustees. You are put in the position where you have to
:37:51. > :37:53.accept what they have said and what they are willing to give you at the
:37:54. > :38:00.end of the process. And the regulator won't look at it? I don't
:38:01. > :38:06.know what the regulator actually does. Insolvency cases are driven by
:38:07. > :38:12.law and the moment the redress for someone who has concerns about the
:38:13. > :38:17.fees is to go to the court. Someone has taken themselves to
:38:18. > :38:23.court won't do so because it is a vastly expensive process? The court
:38:24. > :38:28.is very ready to look at insolvency practicers' fees. The Government
:38:29. > :38:33.wants to reform the bankruptcy business by strengthening regulation
:38:34. > :38:37.and capping fees. The insolvency industry is resisting some of the
:38:38. > :38:49.changes, but for families affected reform is long overdue. As birthdays
:38:50. > :38:53.go, William shakes peers is -- William Shakespeare is some what
:38:54. > :38:57.imprecise. Newsnight thought it would get in on the celebrations
:38:58. > :39:02.going on in Stratford. Every night we will finish the programme with
:39:03. > :39:07.big British stars performing their own favourites of Shakespeare. Here
:39:08. > :39:14.is Helen Mirren on what Shakespeare means to her, ahead of her
:39:15. > :39:20.performance on Friday. When I was young I didn't go to the cinema, we
:39:21. > :39:27.didn't have television, but I did see an amateur production of Hamlet
:39:28. > :39:33.was when I was 14, I was completely overwhelmed and it was so magical to
:39:34. > :39:38.me, just the story alone, imagine seeing Hamlet when you don't know
:39:39. > :39:41.that Opheila goes mad or that Hamlet dies, I didn't know any of that. You
:39:42. > :39:45.are watching it like a thriller as much asking? Anything else. It was
:39:46. > :39:50.such an electrifying experience for me that I immediately went back and
:39:51. > :39:55.found a very musty old copy of Shakespeare that my parents had, and
:39:56. > :40:03.started reading it, and that was the moment I think that I realised that
:40:04. > :40:09.was really what I wanted to do. By favoured fountain or rushy brooks,
:40:10. > :40:13.thy brawls though has disturbed our sport. Children should not be
:40:14. > :40:18.allowed to read Shakespeare until her 15 years old, taken to see a
:40:19. > :40:22.play at 13, 14, they would say you can't read it is much too grown up,
:40:23. > :40:29.not allowed, not until you are 16. Then of course you are dying to
:40:30. > :40:40.secretly reading Shakespeare in your bedroom. A play like Coreolanus, you
:40:41. > :40:45.can do a play Ross thighesing for fuedalism or capitalism. That is the
:40:46. > :40:56.extraordinary nature of his work is that it is just always multifaceted.
:40:57. > :41:00.You can put it in an African, Aborigine society, an Asian society,
:41:01. > :41:12.and it always has resonance to the people who watch it. I would love to
:41:13. > :41:15.play Juliet! Too late! But I do practice Juliet from time to time.
:41:16. > :41:20.You know. REPORTER: Did you ever have to turn
:41:21. > :41:25.down Juliet? No, I was never asked, it broke my heart. Especially when I
:41:26. > :41:34.realised I was in my 30s and 40s and it is not going to happen now. It is
:41:35. > :41:40.not going to happen now. Gap hop apace you feeble feet, bring on
:41:41. > :41:44.cloudy night immediately! Starting us off with our first performance
:41:45. > :41:51.will be David Harewood in just a moment. Before that let's discuss
:41:52. > :41:55.Shakespeare's power today with the director with us. We were talking
:41:56. > :42:00.about the idea that you can do anything with shakes beer? We have
:42:01. > :42:04.just done a production at the Donmar, set roughly in a Rome that
:42:05. > :42:09.feels a bit like now. The amazing thing about it, it ran the NT lives,
:42:10. > :42:13.which go out around the world. I have had people writing from Russia
:42:14. > :42:17.movingly saying this is an incredible play about democracy. Do
:42:18. > :42:21.you find it good, do you agree with Helen you shouldn't be allowed to
:42:22. > :42:26.read Shakespeare at school? I would disagree. I think you should give
:42:27. > :42:30.Shakespeare to kids all around the world and let them experience it. It
:42:31. > :42:34.is only by experiencing it, it comes alive, by reading it, saying it,
:42:35. > :42:40.experiencing it, that is when you get the full benefit of it for me.
:42:41. > :42:45.It has so many ideas in the writing, so much beautiful language and so
:42:46. > :42:49.many beautiful images in the language. It really comes alive when
:42:50. > :42:54.kids get a hold of it and understand what it is about. Do you remember at
:42:55. > :42:59.school, I remember it was Macbeth? The most brilliant thing happened, I
:43:00. > :43:04.was in correspondence with my brother's niece who is six years old
:43:05. > :43:10.and studying Shakespeare, she has been writing e-mails saying about
:43:11. > :43:14.adding things with the witches' cauldron and stirring things with
:43:15. > :43:19.someone's arm, it is making her brain pop. Have you seen firsthand
:43:20. > :43:25.how it can change children's lives? We did the all-female workshops
:43:26. > :43:30.around Shakespeare's plays, and there was a girl in the workshops
:43:31. > :43:35.who never been heard to speak before, she was reading Julius
:43:36. > :43:40.ceaser, it is so KOUFRL. The point is about not making it dry and the
:43:41. > :43:44.performance. What we are mindful at the moment is it doesn't desiccate
:43:45. > :43:47.into the curriculum as something academic, they were written to be
:43:48. > :43:51.spoken and performed. Shakespeare never published his plays in his
:43:52. > :44:01.lifetime, but after his death. He wanted them to be exciting and
:44:02. > :44:06.crackling things, not dusty books? I have experienced Shakespeare in
:44:07. > :44:11.prisons, and these prisoners have no experience of the language but when
:44:12. > :44:14.they understand about it, you can feel their back straighten and these
:44:15. > :44:18.huge characters come alive. And they start to understand this isn't some
:44:19. > :44:21.kind of posh you know thing that belongs to the rich people or people
:44:22. > :44:25.living in London, it belongs to all of us. And there is no right or
:44:26. > :44:29.wrong in Shakespeare, you can do it anywhere, any time, and why
:44:30. > :44:33.shouldn't Helen play Juliet, it would be fantastic to see it. There
:44:34. > :44:37.is absolutely no right or wrong in Shakespeare, can you do it wherever
:44:38. > :44:43.and whenever. Tonight you are going to do Iago, why? I have always been
:44:44. > :44:46.interested in doing things, as I said, that you are not supposed to
:44:47. > :44:55.do. Or flipping things on their head. And the idea of having, I did
:44:56. > :45:00.Iago for my RADA audition, I can remember their faces going you are
:45:01. > :45:03.doing this not Othello, and I thought why not. You can't do
:45:04. > :45:09.anything wrong with Shakespeare, and it is about bringing it alive. If it
:45:10. > :45:13.means casting a white actor in a black role, or whatever, or a woman
:45:14. > :45:19.as a man, do it. You go off and prepare, one final question for joss
:45:20. > :45:25.circumstance having done -- Josie, having done your all-female Julius
:45:26. > :45:29.Caesar, has it whetted your appetite for another production with
:45:30. > :45:32.all-women? We would love to bring that work back, it had such a great
:45:33. > :45:37.force of change in the lives of the actors that did it. Listening to
:45:38. > :45:41.David there, it is a great point about elitism, it is only elitist if
:45:42. > :45:44.people don't get to go to the theatre and drama doesn't get caught
:45:45. > :45:50.in school, when you don't allow admission to it, that is elitist, it
:45:51. > :45:58.isn't at its heart. Here is David Harewood playing Iago from act I of
:45:59. > :46:03.Othello. Oh Sir content you, I follow him to serve my turn upon
:46:04. > :46:09.him. We cannot all be masters, nor all masters cannot be truly
:46:10. > :46:15.followed. You shall mark many a duteous and knee crooking knave, who
:46:16. > :46:21.doting on his obsequious bondage wearing out his time like his
:46:22. > :46:29.master's ass, when he's old cash yeared, with me such honest knaves,
:46:30. > :46:34.others, there are who trimmed in forms and visages of beauty, kept
:46:35. > :46:38.yet their hearts intending on themselves, and throwing but shows
:46:39. > :46:43.of service on their Lords, do well thrive by them. And when they have
:46:44. > :46:50.lined their coats, do themselves homage. Those fellows have some
:46:51. > :46:56.soul, and such a wonder I profess myself, for Sir, it is as sure as
:46:57. > :47:03.you are Rodrigo, and I the moor, I would not be Iago, and following him
:47:04. > :47:08.I follow but myself, not I for love and duty, but seeming so for my
:47:09. > :47:16.peculiar end, and when my outward action demonstrate the native act
:47:17. > :47:22.and figure of my heart in confident external, it is not long after, that
:47:23. > :47:42.I will wait my heart upon my sleeve for daws to peck at. I am not
:47:43. > :47:47.Rain continues to spread east overnight, heavy showers fading from
:47:48. > :47:50.south-west England and Northern Ireland, a chilly start to the south
:47:51. > :47:53.west of the UK, patchy fog too, Wales, Midland, southern England
:47:54. > :47:55.slowly clearing and then a