:00:00. > :00:10.A British court convicts a British citizen for travelling to fight in
:00:11. > :00:18.the Syrian civil war. Why should joining a foreign war be a criminal
:00:19. > :00:21.offence in THIS country? The former Italian Prime Minister
:00:22. > :00:28.explains the finer points of diplomacy. Do you have a particular
:00:29. > :00:31.problem with Angela Merkel? Is it true you called her a unBLEEPable
:00:32. > :00:40.lard-arse? And how UKIP appeals not just to
:00:41. > :00:47.people who'd otherwise be Tories, but to deep into the Labour
:00:48. > :00:53.heartlands. If I'm honest, I never used to be racist, never. But this
:00:54. > :00:57.government, in the things it's doing, is making me racist. How
:00:58. > :00:59.traditional loyalties are fading as Labour becomes a party dominated by
:01:00. > :01:13.career politicians. The first man to be convicted under
:01:14. > :01:19.new terrorism laws was found guilty today. Mashudur Choudhury, a
:01:20. > :01:22.would-be jihadi from Portsmouth, had travelled to Syria and made the
:01:23. > :01:26.mistake later of returning to this country where he was picked up and
:01:27. > :01:30.charged with preparing for acts of terrorism. Choudhury was a liar and
:01:31. > :01:34.a fantasist, but the court judged him to be serious about his desire
:01:35. > :01:50.to join what he believed to be a holy war.
:01:51. > :01:55.Today's conviction raises the question: Why are hundreds of Brit
:01:56. > :02:03.leading cities like Portsmouth to fight in Syria? For some there are
:02:04. > :02:04.echoes of the Spanish Civil War, just fight against a brutal
:02:05. > :02:14.dictator. Mashudur Choudhury, convicted today,
:02:15. > :02:19.was one of the group of at least five young men from the city who
:02:20. > :02:27.chose to leave safe lives to fight. Around 400 from the UK have joined
:02:28. > :02:33.the caravan to Syria. I feel sorry about these young people because
:02:34. > :02:39.they have been brainwashed. Why do they go? Some, it is holy war. This
:02:40. > :02:42.Tory has a direct connection with an exclusive six months ago when I
:02:43. > :02:48.spoke to another young man from Portsmouth, when he was in Syria,
:02:49. > :02:55.close to the front line. He admitted to finding with -- fighting with
:02:56. > :03:01.Isis. He was in contact with all the young men from Portsmouth. He died
:03:02. > :03:07.two weeks after our interview. Here he is, spreading the word of Islam
:03:08. > :03:08.in his hometown. Born in Britain, he gave me a fascinating insight into
:03:09. > :03:36.the new world of jihad. This religious certainty plays into
:03:37. > :03:40.support for jihad. Newsnight consulted a leading scholar about
:03:41. > :03:46.this. He was one of the first to speak out against President Assad.
:03:47. > :03:52.They don't want an Islamic state, they want an Al-Qaeda state. We
:03:53. > :03:55.don't have any extremists, they want their own version, their own
:03:56. > :04:02.understanding of Islam, which they derive from the Internet! At the
:04:03. > :04:04.start of the conflict, some say there were parallels with the
:04:05. > :04:12.Spanish Civil War, which could be termed the jihad against brutal
:04:13. > :04:19.oppressor. But many are not on the right path. This is what you are
:04:20. > :04:22.saying is alarming. Indeed, it is. Changing the nature of the
:04:23. > :04:31.fighting, from fighting for freedom and dignity, from protecting their
:04:32. > :04:37.honour, their lives, to fighting to eradicate certain sect or a certain
:04:38. > :04:40.ethnicity, this is, I believe, very serious and dangerous. Our job is to
:04:41. > :04:48.highlight the importance of coexistence. Security sources say
:04:49. > :04:53.the Spanish Civil War and is broken. There is lethal infighting
:04:54. > :04:59.and the aim is as much about Al-Qaeda's desire to create original
:05:00. > :05:02.state and toppling Assad. It seems the jury considered that was indeed
:05:03. > :05:08.Mashudur Choudhury's true motivation.
:05:09. > :05:11.Well I'm joined by Abdullah Anas - a veteran of the Afghan-Soviet war,
:05:12. > :05:16.who used to count Osama bin Laden as his friend, but distanced himself
:05:17. > :05:19.from Al-Qaeda completely. And also Asim Qureshi from the campaign group
:05:20. > :05:22.CAGE which works on behalf of those accused of terrorist offences, and
:05:23. > :05:31.Raffaello Pantucci from the Royal United Services Institute. Let's
:05:32. > :05:35.turn to this comparison that was raised at the end of that report.
:05:36. > :05:41.People from this country went and fought in the Spanish 44 and many
:05:42. > :05:45.people felt rather fondly and proudly towards them. -- Spanish
:05:46. > :05:50.Civil War. People have gone off and fought with the Israeli defence
:05:51. > :05:54.forces. In what respect is this particular offence of going to Syria
:05:55. > :06:00.and acute missa which deserves being sent to jail for? The difference is
:06:01. > :06:03.the battlefield you're going to participate in and the groups you
:06:04. > :06:09.are going to fight alongside. When you are looking like groups like
:06:10. > :06:13.ISIS, or the Al-Qaeda connected groups on the ground, they have
:06:14. > :06:17.espoused a desire to attack the West. So you are not going to join a
:06:18. > :06:21.group that is just participating in a civil war against regime, they are
:06:22. > :06:27.group that has history on trying to attack the West. So had these young
:06:28. > :06:33.men gone to fight for Assad, that would have been all right? That is a
:06:34. > :06:37.fair point, and the debate there is I think the law as it stands says it
:06:38. > :06:40.is not permissible to go and that is not permissible to go and put a
:06:41. > :06:46.spate infighting in this Civil War. This particular Civil War? In terms
:06:47. > :06:49.of legislation are people going to join the Assad side, I don't think
:06:50. > :06:58.that has happened so we don't have... But we don't know, of
:06:59. > :07:02.course. We don't know. Is this young men
:07:03. > :07:05.course. We don't know. Is this young others? I don't think so. I
:07:06. > :07:06.course. We don't know. Is this young there is a certain feeling among
:07:07. > :07:10.young Muslim men in the there is a certain feeling among
:07:11. > :07:14.they want to go out and help. Some of them are attracted to groups like
:07:15. > :07:18.ISIS, and despite warnings that are given by different community leaders
:07:19. > :07:23.across the country, they are going out there to join them. But I think
:07:24. > :07:29.the vast majority, there isn't a single voice here in the UK that is
:07:30. > :07:33.encouraging them to go out there. But it is, though, is many of them
:07:34. > :07:37.are looking at the conflict and they have a desire to assist. You have to
:07:38. > :07:42.separate the ethics from the pragmatism of the situation. Most of
:07:43. > :07:46.the Muslims in the UK will say there is nothing unethical about wanting
:07:47. > :07:49.to go out and defend somebody or defend the people that are being
:07:50. > :07:58.killed, massacres, but what we are saying is that, if that's the most
:07:59. > :08:02.pragmatic thing to do? Do you try to prevent them, discourage them? I
:08:03. > :08:07.don't have access to prevent them, discourage them? I
:08:08. > :08:11.community in that way. You are originally Algerian and you fought
:08:12. > :08:19.in Afghanistan. What was it that drew you to Afghanistan from a long
:08:20. > :08:25.distance away? I think what drew me to Afghanistan will continue drawing
:08:26. > :08:31.the new generations hereafter. When you have that intention of being
:08:32. > :08:41.Shaheed, or being a major hit, this will never finish, this didn't start
:08:42. > :08:48.with me in 1983, and will never stop with my son. So we're not coming
:08:49. > :08:57.here to comment about the intentions. The intentions, I think
:08:58. > :09:03.it is a positive intention. You see your brother or women or children
:09:04. > :09:10.being killed in Syria or in Afghanistan, so your religion, your
:09:11. > :09:17.face, forces you to be positive and to be positive here, to help. --
:09:18. > :09:25.your faith. So we're not here to comment about the intention, we are
:09:26. > :09:36.here, I am here, to give my opinion about the actions. So the action, I
:09:37. > :09:49.think, is not a matter of saying how Al or a RAM. It is deeper than that.
:09:50. > :09:55.I don't know if I can explain it, it is whether going to Syria now in the
:09:56. > :10:04.circumstances is harmful or beneficial. What is your view on
:10:05. > :10:15.that? It's harmful. As a form in which a Dean, -- mujahedin, as we
:10:16. > :10:20.started this idea. What is the difference? You felt it was
:10:21. > :10:23.legitimate, it was all right, to go to Afghanistan to fight, but you
:10:24. > :10:31.think it is a bad idea to go to Syria to fight, why? The intention
:10:32. > :10:36.is still not bad. The circumstances now, it's not the same
:10:37. > :10:43.circumstances. Why? In my opinion, I am sure there is no time to explain
:10:44. > :10:50.it deeply now, that is why maybe I wrote my biography, in order to
:10:51. > :10:56.answer all these questions and confusion in the mind. I have to
:10:57. > :11:05.find a good publisher now! But what the difference between Syria and
:11:06. > :11:12.Afghanistan? I will send children to Syria -- never send boys to fight in
:11:13. > :11:20.Syria. But there are many obstacles there. If you had heard me with the
:11:21. > :11:26.people we followed three days ago, after the split happened with
:11:27. > :11:31.Al-Qaeda, they announced that they had an agreement with the Iranians
:11:32. > :11:41.intelligence not to have any operation in Iran. So this makes me
:11:42. > :11:46.more careful to advise my son or two any young Muslim, to go there,
:11:47. > :11:53.because if you are not in between the hands of the intelligence, you
:11:54. > :12:02.are in the hands... That is why the attention is fine, the action is
:12:03. > :12:05.harmful -- the intention is fine. The concern of government in framing
:12:06. > :12:10.the law is the protection of its own citizens, of the country. Is there
:12:11. > :12:19.concrete evidence that young men going off to take part in this sort
:12:20. > :12:24.of war , the Syrian Civil War, possibly, actually are a risk to
:12:25. > :12:27.this country? I would say look at history, and if we look at every
:12:28. > :12:32.battlefield that has shaped like this, where you have groups on the
:12:33. > :12:37.ground that spies a jihadi rhetoric, they have all produced some sort of
:12:38. > :12:48.terrorist threat back home in the West. -- espoused. But they don't
:12:49. > :12:52.support that. If you look at all the actual plot that took place in the
:12:53. > :12:57.UK, where there was a plot in the centre, 66 individuals involved,
:12:58. > :13:01.crossed 12 different plots, and in that circumstance, the one thing we
:13:02. > :13:06.saw was that hardly any of them had had training in a conflict zone
:13:07. > :13:16.previously, to then deciding to do this action. A lot of them went
:13:17. > :13:26.abroad... But you had Abdullah came back... You look at Somalia... This
:13:27. > :13:29.is the point I'm trying to make. But they go abroad because of their
:13:30. > :13:33.foreign policy grievance. In all of those cases, it is not that they had
:13:34. > :13:37.gone to a conflict zone and then, because of that, had established a
:13:38. > :13:42.certain mentality. They became disenfranchised from the society,
:13:43. > :13:49.then they went abroad and then they came back. In every single one of
:13:50. > :13:52.those cases... But the net result is they come back to try and launch an
:13:53. > :13:59.attack. When we look at Syria, it would be very surprising... If you
:14:00. > :14:06.look at the proportion that comeback in turn up as terrorists, in the
:14:07. > :14:10.West, they do produce... But not everyone who's going out to Syria
:14:11. > :14:14.will come back as a terrorist threat. Amongst that number, it is
:14:15. > :14:21.likely, and we are already seeing some evidence of plotting. The point
:14:22. > :14:27.is purely about the numbers, which is that we don't see any of the same
:14:28. > :14:31.numbers of people going off to Iraq and Afghanistan post-9/11 we do with
:14:32. > :14:36.Syria. The reason we do with Syria is because Muslims in the UK, like
:14:37. > :14:40.with Libya, which was completely permissible, according to this
:14:41. > :14:43.government, they were going there for that purpose, they are going
:14:44. > :14:49.there because they don't feel any conflict between being British and
:14:50. > :14:53.wanting to go out and fight. There are problems with groups like ISIS,
:14:54. > :15:02.but these people are going up there with good intentions, and what we
:15:03. > :15:06.need to do is to help them. They are participating a battle that is
:15:07. > :15:11.confusing. It is shocking you see them going to fight, they might go
:15:12. > :15:24.with intentions to fight for the regime or against it. But people are
:15:25. > :15:27.dying out there. Thanks very much. Amme, we're going to explore why so
:15:28. > :15:32.many people seem to be preparing to vote for UKIP in the elections laetr
:15:33. > :15:35.this week. But this disenchantment with regular politicians is spread
:15:36. > :15:38.right across Europe, as more and more people become fed up with the
:15:39. > :15:42.EU. In Italy, for example, the governing party is being pressed by
:15:43. > :15:45.a party led by Beppe Grillo, a comedian, who rejects all EU budget
:15:46. > :15:49.rules and promises a referendum on whether his country should stay in
:15:50. > :15:57.the euro. The party of Silvio Berlusconi, who so recently was
:15:58. > :16:01.Prime Minister, is running third. Of course, he has had other things to
:16:02. > :16:04.think about - charges of fraud, of sex with underage prostitutes, and
:16:05. > :16:16.so on. I went to see him at his villa outside Milan. This interview
:16:17. > :16:24.contains strong language. There will never be a United States of Europe?
:16:25. > :16:33.TRANSLATION: No, that was a dream that will never come true. Today's
:16:34. > :16:41.EU is different from the dreams of its founding fathers. The EU has a
:16:42. > :16:51.very invalid and Steve can policy. And a very imbalanced tax policy. --
:16:52. > :16:57.imbalanced foreign policy. When we had a meeting with the heads of
:16:58. > :17:04.state, I propose to have just one president. I suggested Tony Blair.
:17:05. > :17:11.He was charismatic. George Bush, a good friend of mine. He rang me up.
:17:12. > :17:17.He asked me who to speak to in order to understand the European position
:17:18. > :17:28.in Iraq. I told him to try to contact everybody. I am very
:17:29. > :17:31.concerned, very concerned about what the European Union is doing and its
:17:32. > :17:38.behaviour towards the Russian Federation with this absurd
:17:39. > :17:43.sanctions that the UN and USA are imposing on people they think are
:17:44. > :17:48.close to Vladimir Putin. They are putting distance between our
:17:49. > :17:57.countries, and this could mean that Russia returns to the isolation of
:17:58. > :18:03.the Cold War. The euro was always a political project. In your
:18:04. > :18:14.judgement, is Europe growing apart, or is it continuing to grow closer?
:18:15. > :18:19.We need to radically change the situation in Europe. For example,
:18:20. > :18:25.the fact that the UK is not in the Eurozone and we are is a disaster.
:18:26. > :18:29.We need radical changes, otherwise the economic situation will force us
:18:30. > :18:39.and other European countries to abandon the euro and go back to
:18:40. > :18:43.national currencies. The European Central Bank is supposed to fight
:18:44. > :18:50.inflation. It needs to be a central bank, like the Federal Reserve, like
:18:51. > :19:05.the Bank of England, the bank of Japan. What does it need to do?
:19:06. > :19:09.First, it needs to guarantee the debt of the euro countries and
:19:10. > :19:10.secondly to print money when needed for those countries who cannot pay
:19:11. > :19:30.their debts. Have you got a particular problem
:19:31. > :19:39.with Angela Merkel? Did you call her an unfuckable lardarse? No I have
:19:40. > :19:46.never had any problems with Angela Merkel. In 20 years of politics, I
:19:47. > :19:55.have never insulted anyone. This has been made up by somebody who wanted
:19:56. > :20:01.to turn Angela against me. I was not an easy person to deal with and I
:20:02. > :20:06.was quite tough. I had the courage to propose some of the proposals
:20:07. > :20:12.made by Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy. The time you jumped out
:20:13. > :20:21.from behind a monument and went cuckoo, to Angela Merkel, that was a
:20:22. > :20:25.joke? She enjoyed it. I explained why I did the cuckoo thing. Days
:20:26. > :20:44.earlier I went to Saint Petersburg to visit Putin. Putin, he hid behind
:20:45. > :20:55.the pillar and went, cuckoo, to me, from behind. Merkel and I were on
:20:56. > :21:05.good terms. I thought of what he had done and I basically hid behind the
:21:06. > :21:16.monument and did the same thing. It was funny. This only matters
:21:17. > :21:22.because, at this level of European politics, personal relationships are
:21:23. > :21:34.important. With Sarkozy, it is a different matter. He feared my
:21:35. > :21:39.friendship with Gadaffi Woodstock Libya supplying oil and gas. He
:21:40. > :21:52.moved first to attack Libya and I think it was a big mistake. In your
:21:53. > :21:58.analysis, what is wrong with Italian politics, you have had three prime
:21:59. > :22:08.ministers in the past year. Everything? Italy is no longer a
:22:09. > :22:15.democracy. In the past 20 years we have had four examples of coup
:22:16. > :22:27.d'etats. We have had three successive governments that would
:22:28. > :22:33.not directly elected recently. The deadline for the European elections
:22:34. > :22:38.is looming. We faced two major threats. The first is the remaining
:22:39. > :22:46.risk of a left-wing government and the other, you have probably heard
:22:47. > :22:56.of him, is from Mr Beppe Grillo. He is a real danger to Italy and I are
:22:57. > :23:01.very concerned. His behaviour reminds me of some of the most
:23:02. > :23:12.bloody and dangerous characters in history. He has many things in
:23:13. > :23:21.common with Robespierre, Stalin and Pol Pot. So he is not to be taken
:23:22. > :23:26.lightly. It is unfortunate that as far as the rest of the world is
:23:27. > :23:32.concerned, the reputation you have is about your private life. It is
:23:33. > :23:43.about corruption and unpaid taxes and parties. What do you think about
:23:44. > :23:49.that? Since I entered politics, I have been involved in 57 trials. I
:23:50. > :24:08.have never had to deal with judges previously. 46 of the cases were
:24:09. > :24:21.dismissed. I am dealing with ours -- others concerning my assets. It
:24:22. > :24:26.takes up a lot of my time. For 20 years, I have spent every weekend
:24:27. > :24:36.and each Monday afternoon with lawyers, to prepare the 2700
:24:37. > :24:50.hearings held against me and my team will -- team. 2700 is a record, a
:24:51. > :24:59.world record. And the lies invented about me have given me a bad
:25:00. > :25:18.reputation abroad. Italians know very well that none of the facts are
:25:19. > :25:37.true. The bunga bunga accusations were the most amazing things,
:25:38. > :25:42.ridiculous. They manipulated reality. Luckily, I am a strong
:25:43. > :25:47.person and I was able to take it. I want to go down in history as the
:25:48. > :25:52.father of a country and as my legacy, a Conservative Central right
:25:53. > :25:53.government to protect Italy from a potential dictator like Beppe
:25:54. > :26:14.Grillo. The United States and China are busy
:26:15. > :26:16.throwing names at each other after Washington accused five named
:26:17. > :26:25.Chinese officers of hacking into American nuclear, metal and solar
:26:26. > :26:27.firms to steal trade secrets. In the general manner of accusations of
:26:28. > :26:31.espionage, there was much outrage, just as there used to be theatrical
:26:32. > :26:34.horror at the discovery that spies existed. But the targets demonstrate
:26:35. > :26:38.the extent to which international competition is increasingly about
:26:39. > :26:48.firewalls as much as firearms. David Grossman reports.
:26:49. > :26:52.Five named People's Liberation Army officers charged by the American
:26:53. > :26:58.authorities with 31 counts of cyber-espionage. They are part of a
:26:59. > :27:03.group known as a Pty, advance persistent threat group one. The US
:27:04. > :27:08.government is convinced it is a Chinese state operation. This
:27:09. > :27:12.administration will not tolerate actions by any nation that seeks to
:27:13. > :27:20.sabotage American companies and undermine the integrity of fair
:27:21. > :27:25.competition. Although the US authorities only made charges in
:27:26. > :27:30.relation to activities against five US companies, Newsnight has learned
:27:31. > :27:33.the same group of Chinese state military hackers has also targeted
:27:34. > :27:46.eight British companies using the same tactics. It is an explosive
:27:47. > :27:54.allegation. The FBI in investigation was prompted by this report, written
:27:55. > :27:59.by a security specialists. They gave us a briefing on how the attacks
:28:00. > :28:03.worked. We were told the potential damage to British companies is
:28:04. > :28:09.virtually limitless. We have seen attacks focus on the most critical
:28:10. > :28:13.parts of organisations. Unlike traditional cyber crime, something
:28:14. > :28:18.that was an annoyance, you could lose a huge tender. If it is a
:28:19. > :28:23.closed bid. If somebody knows how much you have bid, if they bid ?1
:28:24. > :28:28.less, they will potentially win the business. It has a commercial impact
:28:29. > :28:37.and potential to be catastrophic. What do we know about the hackers?
:28:38. > :28:52.According to the group, they are commonly known as Unit 61398. This
:28:53. > :28:55.is the building it is said the attacks came from. The Chinese
:28:56. > :29:03.government reacted with angry denials. TRANSLATION: The United
:29:04. > :29:08.States deliberately made up facts coming using the excuse of the
:29:09. > :29:13.so-called stealing of secrets online to indict five Chinese military
:29:14. > :29:17.officials. This has violated the basic principles of international
:29:18. > :29:31.relations and damaged Chinese US cooperation and mutual trust. Here
:29:32. > :29:38.is an actor installing something onto the server. This is voted off a
:29:39. > :29:43.cyber attack happening. We spoke to one of the original report's authors
:29:44. > :29:49.about how certain she was the Chinese government are behind this
:29:50. > :29:52.activity. We did a lot of research, looking at the attacker
:29:53. > :29:58.infrastructure, doing research on personas involved in hacking, and
:29:59. > :30:03.taking advantage of operational security practices to link this back
:30:04. > :30:07.to a specific location in Shanghai. We did research and noticed that
:30:08. > :30:13.some telecommunications equipment they were using was given to them
:30:14. > :30:19.from the Chinese government. It was a combination of variables that led
:30:20. > :30:24.us to the conclusion. As to what happens now, it seems inconceivable
:30:25. > :30:31.the five named army officers will ever face any legal process in the
:30:32. > :30:37.United States. This is, as a source said, using the law as a tool of
:30:38. > :30:40.diplomacy. The question is whether Britain will follow the United
:30:41. > :30:45.States down this road in defence of British companies that have been
:30:46. > :30:51.attacked. We asked the National crime agency
:30:52. > :30:54.if they were aware of persistent attacks on British agencies and what
:30:55. > :30:58.they intend to do about them. They told us it wasn't a question for
:30:59. > :31:02.them but referred us to the Cabinet Office. They would only say that
:31:03. > :31:07.this country faced attacks from a range of sources including several
:31:08. > :31:11.established a capable states, but didn't name China.
:31:12. > :31:13.The chief executive of the Football League and author of various
:31:14. > :31:16.potty-mouthed sexist emails, Richard Scudamore, isn't going to have any
:31:17. > :31:19.action taken against him by the sport's governing body. They say
:31:20. > :31:22.they've no authority to do anything. The eruption of apologies testifies
:31:23. > :31:33.to the huge embarrassment felt in the sport. There is more to come.
:31:34. > :31:38.Laura Kuenssberg is here. It's a pretty unsavoury episode. In case
:31:39. > :31:42.you about your fingers in your ears, what has happened is a temporary PA
:31:43. > :31:46.leaked a series of e-mails that he had written containing some pretty
:31:47. > :31:50.grisly sexist language to a Sunday newspaper. He has given a full
:31:51. > :31:54.apology but there have been plenty of calls for him to go, including
:31:55. > :32:02.the Prime Minister, more or less hinting at that. But the FA has said
:32:03. > :32:06.there is nothing they can do, and the PA who leads the e-mails says
:32:07. > :32:10.the investigation didn't even ask her for her account of what went on.
:32:11. > :32:17.The other thing is, football isn't just about the game, it's about
:32:18. > :32:24.business too. And you have something on that? Right now, the premiership
:32:25. > :32:28.is sponsored by Barclays in a deal worth tens and tens of millions of
:32:29. > :32:36.pounds. Right now I am being told that they have expressed privately,
:32:37. > :32:39.horror and disappointment over what has happened. What is interesting is
:32:40. > :32:43.they had suggested to me that even before this erupted, they had
:32:44. > :32:48.decided that when this sponsorship deal comes up with the Premier
:32:49. > :32:53.League, they will not want to renew the deal. That's not just because
:32:54. > :32:56.the newest Chief Executive doesn't like football, although I am told
:32:57. > :33:03.but is also the case, but because he feels that football and the Premier
:33:04. > :33:09.League doesn't match up as a brand with the cultural clean-up that he
:33:10. > :33:15.is trying to achieve at Barclays. So this is a banker thinking that there
:33:16. > :33:21.are institutions held in low esteem than banking? ! That may be
:33:22. > :33:27.surprising to some viewers. But please say no decisions have been
:33:28. > :33:30.taken, there is no truth in this suggestion, but one source at one of
:33:31. > :33:35.the clubs says that is indeed what everybody expects, that when the
:33:36. > :33:39.deal is up, Barclays will walk away. So we find ourselves in a
:33:40. > :33:44.pretty bizarre play-off for reputation, where bankers are trying
:33:45. > :33:51.to disassociate themselves from footballers! Curiouser and
:33:52. > :33:54.curiouser. The day after
:33:55. > :33:57.curiouser. day. In England we can choose not
:33:58. > :34:00.only who we want to represent us in the European parliament, but, much
:34:01. > :34:04.closer to home, many of the people who will control local councils. In
:34:05. > :34:07.some northern towns, the result has been a foregone conclusion since
:34:08. > :34:09.Methuselah was a lad. Rotherham in South Yorkshire, for example, has 57
:34:10. > :34:13.Labour councillors, handful of conservatives and one UKIP seat.
:34:14. > :34:15.This year Nigel Farage's party has been blanketing the town with
:34:16. > :34:22.posters, chasing the blue-collar vote. Now, the orthodox view is that
:34:23. > :34:24.UKIP poses its biggest threat to the Conservatives. That may no longer be
:34:25. > :34:46.true. Labour has always been in Rotherham,
:34:47. > :34:53.as long as I can remember. My grandparents, my parents, they have
:34:54. > :35:04.all voted Labour. But times change. I think it's time for a change.
:35:05. > :35:15.This centre has been called the UKIP centre. I am not UKIP and they know
:35:16. > :35:22.that. So I went discussing UKIP because I don't care who gets in,
:35:23. > :35:29.they are all the same. My brothers, my sisters, we were all Labour, they
:35:30. > :35:38.will still go Labour now immaterial of what is happening. What do you
:35:39. > :35:45.think they are offering you, Labour? They are not offering me much. This
:35:46. > :35:49.is a safe labour ward for generations. Then last year, UKIP
:35:50. > :35:54.won its first ever seat on the council. The party has been taking
:35:55. > :36:00.its message out to blue-collar workers, angry with mainstream
:36:01. > :36:05.politics. The main policies I am voting UKIP for its because I think
:36:06. > :36:10.we should come out of Europe and I think we should curb immigration.
:36:11. > :36:16.They will never stop it now, because they will be closing the door when
:36:17. > :36:27.it has all happened. Why do you feel so negative about immigration? It's
:36:28. > :36:30.like our working lads. They work, they get immigration in, they will
:36:31. > :36:38.work for Britain's so it's not fair on our lads. If I'm honest, I never
:36:39. > :36:42.used to be racist, never. But this government, in the things it's
:36:43. > :36:48.doing, is making me racist. And I think it's not just me, it's
:36:49. > :36:52.thousands of other people, it's making as semi-racist, if you know
:36:53. > :36:57.what I mean. They are letting immigrants in and giving them
:36:58. > :37:03.everything. We would like the old brother Ron back. One in 20
:37:04. > :37:07.residents of rubber room was born outside the UK, a number that has
:37:08. > :37:16.doubled in a decade. It still a long way below the national average. A
:37:17. > :37:24.bustling Asian market has just opened, held once a week in the town
:37:25. > :37:30.centre. I believe this is my country, even my children tell me,
:37:31. > :37:36.this is our country. And if I say that after 42 years I'm still
:37:37. > :37:42.Pakistani, I am lying to myself. Muhammad came to Rotherham from
:37:43. > :37:46.Kashmir. He worked most of his life in the steelworks. In your time in
:37:47. > :37:52.this country, how have you traditionally voted? Which party
:37:53. > :37:57.would you vote for? Most time, we voted for Labour but we have voted
:37:58. > :38:03.for conservatives as well. What has the Labour Party offered you? I
:38:04. > :38:08.don't know much about the politics, but the way we think about the
:38:09. > :38:13.Labour Party, they provided jobs, and we needed jobs. This is how we
:38:14. > :38:20.think and we supported them previously. That is what I'm saying.
:38:21. > :38:28.But today, times are different. I don't think this way, our children
:38:29. > :38:32.don't think this way. On the outskirts of Rotherham, the old
:38:33. > :38:38.colliery is being shut down. The last of its kind in South Yorkshire,
:38:39. > :38:46.heavy industry has declined and so has the strength of labour's core
:38:47. > :38:54.vote. Up towards the pit... Have you always been a Labour voter? Apart
:38:55. > :38:57.from last year won a budget UKIP, that was a protest vote. When there
:38:58. > :39:05.is an election, I will always vote Labour. All the way through your
:39:06. > :39:14.life? What has the Labour Party meant to you? I am working class, it
:39:15. > :39:23.has meant everything. I've can't put it into words. But it has changed
:39:24. > :39:33.over the last 30 years, politics. It has got worse, not better. All this
:39:34. > :39:36.being in Europe and stuff like that. It is the general discontent with
:39:37. > :39:42.the establishment which UKIP has been trying to tap into. A study
:39:43. > :39:46.this year found 40% of voters who describe themselves as working class
:39:47. > :39:52.saving now have no representation in politics. The only thing we have
:39:53. > :39:57.gone wrong as we have allowed mass immigration... The only place that
:39:58. > :40:05.people want to come is Britain, because we have got the best welfare
:40:06. > :40:11.system in Europe. Switzerland and Norway aren't in that they are doing
:40:12. > :40:19.very well. Do you think the Labour Party still represents you? Not like
:40:20. > :40:25.in the 40s and 50s. Dennis Skinner and Tony Benn, they were real Labour
:40:26. > :40:28.men, not like what we have got now. Well the men at the miners welfare
:40:29. > :40:35.may feel disillusioned, they still say they will vote Labour this week.
:40:36. > :40:42.A younger generation might not feel those ties so strongly. All be so
:40:43. > :40:47.loyal at the ballot box. I will vote for UKIP. They shouldn't let
:40:48. > :40:53.foreigners into the country when we couldn't even look after our own. I
:40:54. > :40:56.have been working since the age of 14 and my tax sometimes goes to the
:40:57. > :41:05.wrong things and I think they need to look at that to go to the right
:41:06. > :41:10.sort of things. Do you feel as a voter, is it time for a change?
:41:11. > :41:14.Definitely. They have not done anything in my eyes for them to stay
:41:15. > :41:18.in, I think it is time for a change, see what other people can bring to
:41:19. > :41:21.the table, see if they can change things in the amount of time they
:41:22. > :41:24.have got and if they can do something to help this town come
:41:25. > :41:30.back to the way it is supposed to be. Enough warning signs, then, for
:41:31. > :41:34.Ed Miliband. There is little doubt that UKIP will take some votes from
:41:35. > :41:39.later this week, the real question is how many and whether it can hold
:41:40. > :41:46.onto them next year the election that matters the most. Labour's
:41:47. > :41:50.Shadow Communities Secretary is here. Do you understand why some
:41:51. > :41:58.previous Labour voters now support UKIP? I do, because the world has
:41:59. > :42:01.changed for some people, old industries have gone. There is a
:42:02. > :42:07.group of people who feel the world is more insecure, the old deal that
:42:08. > :42:10.you worked hard, you got on, your children can look forward to a
:42:11. > :42:13.better life, people are not social about that because of a changing
:42:14. > :42:18.world, what is happening in the environment, people being able to
:42:19. > :42:25.afford rent, a place to buy, pensions... The question is what is
:42:26. > :42:29.going to provide the solution? What is going to help? I would simply say
:42:30. > :42:33.about Nigel Farage that is the answer to every problem that we face
:42:34. > :42:40.is to say get out of Europe. That isn't the answer to any of them.
:42:41. > :42:44.Nonetheless, people are clearly profoundly disenchanted, not all
:42:45. > :42:48.people, but many people, profoundly disenchanted with what your party
:42:49. > :42:55.has two offer. You saw it in the way they spoke fondly about Dennis
:42:56. > :42:59.Skinner and your dad. They think, a lot of these people, that the party
:43:00. > :43:08.has been taken over by a bunch of professional politicians. What is
:43:09. > :43:14.politics about? Why do I do this job? Why is Ed Miliband the leader
:43:15. > :43:21.of the party? It is because we want to make a difference. We want to use
:43:22. > :43:26.the opportunity as elected representatives to deal with the
:43:27. > :43:31.problems. Somebody mentioned on the film wages, why did Ed Miliband talk
:43:32. > :43:36.this week about a stronger minimum wage. Labour brought Latin, dealing
:43:37. > :43:41.with the exploitation of the past. We listen and think about the
:43:42. > :43:47.problems people face. The people are not listening, are they? It will be
:43:48. > :43:51.a close fight in the election next year and also a tight fight in this
:43:52. > :43:57.one. You have to stand up for what you believe in and say to people if
:43:58. > :44:01.you are privately renting, spending 41% of your income on rent in this
:44:02. > :44:06.country, we have said we think people should have longer term
:44:07. > :44:11.tenancies. You are a family with children about to start school. What
:44:12. > :44:15.good is that if in 12 months the landlord does not renew the tendency
:44:16. > :44:22.or you are not sure about the rent gumming up. People worry about
:44:23. > :44:26.energy bills. Ed Miliband said it was not good enough to say you
:44:27. > :44:30.cannot do anything about the free market. You have mentioned Ed
:44:31. > :44:40.Miliband four times, is he a man of the people, as much as Nigel
:44:41. > :44:44.Farage? I think Ed Miliband is. I have travelled with him. People feel
:44:45. > :44:51.he is approachable and they talk to him. The test of a politician is
:44:52. > :44:58.have you listened, have you got policies that will make a difference
:44:59. > :45:02.to people's lives? We have a job to get across to people the policies we
:45:03. > :45:08.are arguing for so they are heard by voters. The disenchantment you heard
:45:09. > :45:11.in that piece suggest you are saddled with a leader who is more
:45:12. > :45:17.interested in ideas rather than people. I do not agree. If you are
:45:18. > :45:23.going to help people you need policies that will make a
:45:24. > :45:30.difference. Take the insecurity over zero-hours contracts. How can you
:45:31. > :45:35.possibly save... How can you get a mortgage on a zero hours contract?
:45:36. > :45:39.Ed Miliband said we need to deal with the worst aspects of them
:45:40. > :45:44.because the story is for a group of people the world appears to have
:45:45. > :45:50.moved on and left them behind. They feel insecure. The job of Labour
:45:51. > :45:55.politics is to show we understand that and to put forward policies to
:45:56. > :45:58.provide help. Last time you said it was a protest vote and you were
:45:59. > :46:08.listening and you were going to change. I assume you have listened.
:46:09. > :46:13.They are not believing you. It is a struggle, it is an argument and
:46:14. > :46:19.debate about what future the country will have. For the moment, Nigel
:46:20. > :46:23.Farage appears to get a certain amount of support and he is very
:46:24. > :46:30.charming in his own way, although he leads an unappetising party. In the
:46:31. > :46:35.end, his other policies, such as a flat tax rate, which would increase
:46:36. > :46:39.taxes the people we saw in the film, making us pay to see the GP,
:46:40. > :46:46.getting out of Europe, which would be bad the jobs. None of those
:46:47. > :46:51.policies are going to help the people you were talking to in that
:46:52. > :46:55.film. I think that in time, if we make the case, get across what
:46:56. > :47:03.Labour wants to do to make a difference, that is how you win
:47:04. > :47:07.support. Thanks. I will show you one front page, the Daily Mail, saying
:47:08. > :47:12.Prince Charles, I am not sure where he said this, it is not clear, but
:47:13. > :47:18.Prince Charles has apparently compare to Vladimir Putin to Hitler.
:47:19. > :47:22.A withering verdict on the actions of the Russian president in Ukraine,
:47:23. > :47:31.according to the Daily Mail. I only have the front page and presumably
:47:32. > :47:35.the sources inside. Time to say good night. Although
:47:36. > :47:47.members of Led Zeppelin may not sleep too well. The estate of one
:47:48. > :47:51.Randy California, a musician who played at the same time as them in
:47:52. > :47:54.the late 1960s, and who died in poverty, is suing for copyright
:47:55. > :47:57.infringement. It is claimed that Stairway To Heaven, which has
:47:58. > :48:00.grossed more than half a billion dollars since 1971, sounds rather
:48:01. > :48:04.too much like Mr California's rather less well-known guitar instrumental,
:48:05. > :48:10.called Taurus. We'll let you decide the merits of the claim. Here's his
:48:11. > :48:13.track, with a bit of Robert Plant vocal added on top.
:48:14. > :48:57.Good night. For a lot of places it should be
:48:58. > :49:00.fine and dry