:00:00. > :00:13.The campaigning is done, polling stations closed, but who, if anyone
:00:14. > :00:17.did you choose? If we get what we like things will never be the same
:00:18. > :00:22.thing. Governments expect a drubbing in local and European election, but
:00:23. > :00:28.Westminster's trio might all be shamed by Nigel Farage's people's
:00:29. > :00:33.army. Can I ask you who you voted for? UKIP. Why? They are the best
:00:34. > :00:39.ones, simple as that. What is wrong with the other parties. Same old
:00:40. > :00:44.crap. Going underground, the BBC learns an official report will say
:00:45. > :00:55.there are billions of barrels of oil under England's southern green and
:00:56. > :00:59.pleasant land. But will the Shires accept fracking.
:01:00. > :01:05.If intervention is so easy in Libya, why is one of the original backers
:01:06. > :01:13.of the west's involvement in toppling Gadaffi, supporting another
:01:14. > :01:20.uprising, we will ask him live from Paris. Super-size me, McDonalds
:01:21. > :01:29.staff in America ask to super-size their wages. We ask is this the
:01:30. > :01:33.start of something big? Good evening. 32 minutes ago the doors
:01:34. > :01:37.closed, the ballot boxes were sealed, and now the race to count
:01:38. > :01:41.the votes is under way. And although a majority of voters will have
:01:42. > :01:46.chosen none of the above, by simply staying at home, the results of
:01:47. > :01:50.these European and local elections are the biggest clues we will get
:01:51. > :01:55.before the general election about which lucky individual will win the
:01:56. > :01:58.right to occupy Number Ten from next year.
:01:59. > :02:05.Governing parties, nearly always take a hammering half-term. If Ed
:02:06. > :02:10.Miliband can't make gains, packing up and going home might look like an
:02:11. > :02:14.option. It won't have escaped your notice that voters may have for the
:02:15. > :02:22.first time ever put UKIP at the top of their list. The party the Prime
:02:23. > :02:27.Minister once branded "fruitcakes, and loonies". We spent the day in
:02:28. > :02:40.Thanet in Kent, one you have UKIP's best bets.
:02:41. > :02:44.Welcome to Ramsgate in east Kent. Even as it votes in European
:02:45. > :02:49.elections, it feels a very long way from Brussels or Westminster. But
:02:50. > :02:53.seeing the anger here towards the old political parties is crucial for
:02:54. > :02:56.understanding changes in British politics.
:02:57. > :03:00.A disillusionment that is, in part, because of an idea from political
:03:01. > :03:08.science. An idea that's best understood by looking at how, well,
:03:09. > :03:14.ice-cream vans work near beaches. So imagine a beach with three ice-cream
:03:15. > :03:22.vans, each one third of the way along the beach. They would each get
:03:23. > :03:26.a third of the custom. It would make sense for the two at the end to
:03:27. > :03:33.drive to join the one in the middle, giving them a bigger market share
:03:34. > :03:38.each. The similar things happen in politics. That might help explain
:03:39. > :03:42.why lots of voters here feel that the old political parties are
:03:43. > :03:47.neither distinctive nor attractive. And one party seems to be the main
:03:48. > :03:53.beneficiary. I have been a member of UKIP for about a day to be fair. But
:03:54. > :03:57.they really resonate with me, and I was very anti-politics before they
:03:58. > :04:01.came along as well. So I had no interest in anything, because
:04:02. > :04:06.everything was the same. Can I ask who you voted for? UKIP. Can I ask
:04:07. > :04:12.why? They are the best ones. What is wrong with the other parties? Same
:04:13. > :04:20.old crap. Do you mind if I ask who you used to vote for? Labour. -- Ten
:04:21. > :04:26.people around the polling stations said UKIP. UKIP. I don't know what
:04:27. > :04:31.they have got against everyone else. UKIP, tell the others to go and
:04:32. > :04:39.stuff themselves! Not that the tide is entirely going UKIP's way. Green
:04:40. > :04:44.Party. Can I ask why? Because the I wasn't giving UKIP my vote and I'm
:04:45. > :04:49.fed up with the others and Green Party have a strong manifesto. We
:04:50. > :04:54.did meet voters for other parties, but we didn't see any of their
:04:55. > :04:55.activists. So keep an eye on Ramsgate. Nigel Farage might well
:04:56. > :05:01.run for Westminster from Ramsgate. Nigel Farage might well
:05:02. > :05:05.it is part of a fiercely fought European electoral region. If you
:05:06. > :05:08.only follow one constituency during this election I would recommend the
:05:09. > :05:12.south-east of England, not just because it is enormous, it stretches
:05:13. > :05:15.from Kent all the way up to Oxford, but also because it is going to be
:05:16. > :05:20.the scene of some serious political drama. Just how well has UKIP done
:05:21. > :05:27.and just how bad are things going to be for the Liberal Democrats.
:05:28. > :05:31.In this constituency back in 2009 the Tories won four seats. UKIP and
:05:32. > :05:39.the Liberal Democrats picked up two each, the greens and Labour one
:05:40. > :05:43.apiece. According to Newsnight analysis if things go well for the
:05:44. > :05:47.Tories they will hold three of these seats only losing one to UKIP. The
:05:48. > :05:51.Lib Dems will shed one seat and Labour will pick one up. If UKIP do
:05:52. > :05:58.better than expected you will see it here. They have around 30% chances
:05:59. > :06:03.of taking another Tory seat. If that happens UKIP will be on track to win
:06:04. > :06:06.the national vote share handsomely. That will overshadow Labour's
:06:07. > :06:13.expected gains and Lib Dem losses too. Still, don't read too much into
:06:14. > :06:17.today's election results. Past performance isn't always a good
:06:18. > :06:19.indicator of future performance. Next year at the general election
:06:20. > :06:23.the Lib Dems will have the benefit of some of their very small local
:06:24. > :06:29.strongholds and UKIP may struggle to keep a hold of some of its newer
:06:30. > :06:35.supporters. The same lesson applies to today's local elections too.
:06:36. > :06:42.Politics is perhaps more complicated than ice-cream. We will have to wait
:06:43. > :06:45.until Monday before the results of the European elections, but in less
:06:46. > :06:49.than an hour the results of the local elections will start coming
:06:50. > :06:56.in. And Emily our political editor will be watching them all from the
:06:57. > :06:59.BBC election hair election lair, where she is now? What's happening?
:07:00. > :07:04.After weeks of campaigning we where she is now? What's happening?
:07:05. > :07:08.finally slowly get the results in of the 161 councils in England, about
:07:09. > :07:11.finally slowly get the results in of 4,000 councillor, why are we looking
:07:12. > :07:12.finally slowly get the results in of so closely? Because of the points
:07:13. > :07:16.Chris was making. This is about direction of travel of all the
:07:17. > :07:17.parties in the lead-up, less than a year away to the general election.
:07:18. > :07:21.That is why there will be an year away to the general election.
:07:22. > :07:25.amount of scrutiny over these kinds of results. I have pulled up now the
:07:26. > :07:32.places that the Conservatives are defending end to, blue for the
:07:33. > :07:36.Tories. They have Swindon at the top, a majority of one, what does it
:07:37. > :07:40.mean, if you go inside it and look at the shape of it, they are in a
:07:41. > :07:46.race against Labour, if they lose one councillor it goes into no
:07:47. > :07:49.overall control. If Labour gain six councillors they will turn it red, a
:07:50. > :07:54.feather in the cap for Ed Miliband. Croydon, a similar story, a
:07:55. > :07:58.two-horse race, lots of demographic change in Croydon, more nonwhite
:07:59. > :08:01.British families here, perhaps Labour can take advantage of that
:08:02. > :08:04.and see that share of the vote coming through. Tamworth, quite an
:08:05. > :08:09.interesting one, this is somewhere we will be looking out for, a lot of
:08:10. > :08:12.parliamentary marginals in the west Midland, around Tamworth. What could
:08:13. > :08:17.happen here, Labour is fighting hard to gain three seats to end ten years
:08:18. > :08:22.of Tory rule. Those are the two main parties. Haven't mentioned the Lib
:08:23. > :08:25.Dems yet. Chris went into a lot of detail. You were in Kingston upon
:08:26. > :08:35.Thames there yesterday lawyer ruchings the picture there is --
:08:36. > :08:41.Laura, the picture is different there, the Lib Dems up against the
:08:42. > :08:44.Conservatives, Ed Davie may be worried his seat at parliamentary
:08:45. > :08:49.level next year. With all the fuss about UKIP, why haven't you got a
:08:50. > :08:55.giant purple button on the snazzy screen? There is no purple button
:08:56. > :08:58.that is because simply UKIP to date haven't gained an entire council. It
:08:59. > :09:03.was a point that Nigel Farage made to Jeremy on Monday, mathematically
:09:04. > :09:07.it is very hard for them to do so, almost impossible to do so outside
:09:08. > :09:12.London were they don't farewell. That doesn't mean they haven't been
:09:13. > :09:16.doing extraordinarily well in these sorts of elections to date. I will
:09:17. > :09:24.take you to Basildon in Essex, if we go inside there. This is somewhere
:09:25. > :09:27.where UKIP had 30% of the vote. They turned that into some seats on the
:09:28. > :09:37.coupity council. What will they do at Basildon council. We will look at
:09:38. > :09:42.that. And last the also the kind of place cities in the north, the big
:09:43. > :09:47.metropolitans, this is at the risk of sounding like Donald Rumsfeld, a
:09:48. > :09:51.known unknown. They are trying to stand in places where we don't know
:09:52. > :09:56.how well they will do and neither do they just yet.
:09:57. > :09:59.Plenty of numbers and hopefully some more big clues about what it all
:10:00. > :10:02.really means in the next 48 hours. Later in the programme we will
:10:03. > :10:08.debate what might be behind the prominence of that party, who needs
:10:09. > :10:13.a purple button? Before that the BBC has learned tonight that tomorrow
:10:14. > :10:18.the British geological society will confirm just how much oil and gas is
:10:19. > :10:24.waiting to be hydraulically fractured from under our feet. In
:10:25. > :10:30.the Weld, an area that includes thousands of acres of manicured Tory
:10:31. > :10:35.shires, in Sussex and Kent. It could be billions worth. But blasting it
:10:36. > :10:39.out from under the rocks is less than straight forward. Not least
:10:40. > :10:47.because it is hard to find that many people who want a hawed drawlic
:10:48. > :10:54.drilling -- high draw drawlic drilling -- hydrolic drill as their
:10:55. > :10:57.neighbour. In America it is very different, we have been to the
:10:58. > :11:07.fracking fields of the US and the heart of southern England.
:11:08. > :11:12.This is the Weld, a classic English landscape, you might not think of it
:11:13. > :11:25.as oil country. But between the villages of Cudford and Wisborough
:11:26. > :11:31.Green, there is a license to drill for exploratory oil in a local
:11:32. > :11:38.field. Before they can do anything they still need planning permission
:11:39. > :11:41.from West Sussex County Council. Right now the planning committee is
:11:42. > :11:45.deliberating over the decision, what they are only too keenly aware of is
:11:46. > :11:51.in Britain and particularly in parts of Britain like this, the opposition
:11:52. > :11:55.to gas exploration is passionate and intense.
:11:56. > :12:03.That's interesting, because in the US, where there is something like
:12:04. > :12:10.two million hydraulically fractured sites the atmosphere is different.
:12:11. > :12:16.Why is that? Last year I went to Louisiana in America's Deep South.
:12:17. > :12:20.This whole region is sitting on top of the shale rock, it is the gas
:12:21. > :12:27.from that shale that has made some of the farmers here millionaires
:12:28. > :12:38.overnight. Or as they are referred to here "shalionaires". There it is,
:12:39. > :12:46.it is $434,000. I don't think I have seen a figure as high as that? This
:12:47. > :12:53.man has made his fortune by selling drilling rights on his farm? We see
:12:54. > :12:59.something we want, we buy it. And he's not the only one, across the US
:13:00. > :13:04.the financial rewards for landowners are substantial. And the oil
:13:05. > :13:08.companies can pay for upgrades to local schools and roads. So the
:13:09. > :13:13.community can benefit. But also the country itself is large and sparsely
:13:14. > :13:20.populated, so the wells can disappear into the landscape. In
:13:21. > :13:25.England it is rural but densely populated as a village. Some of the
:13:26. > :13:32.local people have made their opposition to fracking clear. What
:13:33. > :13:37.is your expectation of what you will be confronted with? We will have
:13:38. > :13:40.four lorries an hour from the site into the village. It will disrupt
:13:41. > :13:45.the whole of the village lane. The another, the traffic, the
:13:46. > :13:49.disturbance to our wildlife and our environment. Would you put up with
:13:50. > :13:55.that? I don't think you would. I was keen to know whether money might
:13:56. > :14:01.make the difference? The guidelines are that a community gets 1% of
:14:02. > :14:06.revenue plus ?100,000? What price can you put on way of life. We have
:14:07. > :14:13.an idyllic village, so what price can you really put on that? We have
:14:14. > :14:18.probably all lost ?100,000 on the value of our houses at a stroke, so
:14:19. > :14:22.?100,000 to the village wouldn't even mend the road. I can imagine in
:14:23. > :14:27.some communities that amount of cash might be attractive? These things
:14:28. > :14:30.have a cost. If you are saying, you know, let's compensate against that,
:14:31. > :14:34.that means that they have a problem, they know there is a problem and
:14:35. > :14:39.they are going to try to buy you off. That is not the way we should
:14:40. > :14:46.work, that is bribery almost. So quite a contrast with what I found
:14:47. > :14:50.in America. Less than 20 miles down the road, there is a similar
:14:51. > :14:55.campaign opposing the local search for oil and gas, but not everyone is
:14:56. > :15:04.against it. I'm really interested to meet this one couple, the -- they
:15:05. > :15:11.are the one couple that have agreed to give permission for exploration
:15:12. > :15:19.on their land. They have agreed to speak to me. Carla was a parish
:15:20. > :15:24.councillor and her husband's family lived here for 200 years. They own
:15:25. > :15:28.170 acres of local land. You have done something surprising, you are a
:15:29. > :15:32.landowner who has allowed a company to have the application to drill
:15:33. > :15:37.underneath your land. Why did you do that? Because we thought there was
:15:38. > :15:42.no problem from our point of view to use our land for exploration and
:15:43. > :15:46.advancement. To find out what is there? To find out what is actually
:15:47. > :15:53.there. Because nobody knows for sure. So it was in the national
:15:54. > :15:57.interest to find it, because it is indigenous, it is here. We thought
:15:58. > :16:02.it would be of benefit to the community. So I guess the criticism
:16:03. > :16:06.that is often levelled at people like yourselves is you are in it for
:16:07. > :16:11.the money? I wish. We would be off to the bah Hama, never mind
:16:12. > :16:14.Australia if we were to have the money we were alleged to be get. It
:16:15. > :16:18.is a pleasant income, it is more than the market rate for letting
:16:19. > :16:22.agricultural land. So one of the things I find especially interesting
:16:23. > :16:27.is that you are actually kind of a pillar of the community, you are a
:16:28. > :16:36.central plank in the local parish community? No, were! Were! Before
:16:37. > :16:41.this happened we were the sort of household people go they will help
:16:42. > :16:48.us out. And we were always happy to. It has changed our lives forever. We
:16:49. > :16:53.hardly ever go out. I get to go to the supermarket, or the garden
:16:54. > :17:00.centre. Occasionally to the dentist. That's about it. I only spoke to
:17:01. > :17:03.them for an hour or so but Robin and Carla seem very different to the
:17:04. > :17:08.landowners I met in America, much more concerned about conservation
:17:09. > :17:11.and wider energy issues than money. But the situation in this village
:17:12. > :17:18.highlights another contrast between the UK and the US. Property law is
:17:19. > :17:23.different. American landowners can negotiate big pay-offs because they
:17:24. > :17:28.own what is beneath their land. That is not the case in the UK, where the
:17:29. > :17:33.Crown owns the gas and oil. And there is a further issue, fracking
:17:34. > :17:38.involves the neighbour's land too. The pipes snake out laterally away
:17:39. > :17:44.from the drilling site, underground for perhaps two miles. Is that Lyle?
:17:45. > :17:50.Ellen Stokes lectures in property law at Cardiff University. In a
:17:51. > :17:54.prospective drilling site a mile-and-a-half that way, they could
:17:55. > :17:57.come down and go laterally and end up underneath these people's
:17:58. > :18:01.sub-surface property. Are they allowed to do that? That would
:18:02. > :18:07.constitute an actionable trespass. We have a 2010 Supreme Court
:18:08. > :18:10.decision on this. That involved a diagonal drilling beneath somebody
:18:11. > :18:16.else's land for oil. In that case the court held that it did
:18:17. > :18:21.constitute an actionable trespass and ?1,000 in damage was awarded.
:18:22. > :18:26.Why so little? Because the landowner in that case hadn't suffered any
:18:27. > :18:31.consequences or physical loss and his use of the land wasn't disturbed
:18:32. > :18:36.or interfered with. Even without the multimillion dollar pay-offs in the
:18:37. > :18:40.US, could the lower level of money available here still be an
:18:41. > :18:49.incentive, particularly among the people of Fernhurst. We knocked on
:18:50. > :18:56.50 doors, given the sensitivity of the situation, even only a few would
:18:57. > :19:00.speak to us. I don't see why they have their backs up, I don't see
:19:01. > :19:07.long-term effects. I can see both sides of the argument, I can
:19:08. > :19:11.understand homeowners seeing how it can affect properties and just the
:19:12. > :19:13.general environment. A lot of the villagers have been saying about
:19:14. > :19:21.traffic coming through and all of that kind of thing. But there is the
:19:22. > :19:29.job prospects, maybe the revenue or whatever that it would bring in, so
:19:30. > :19:34.I'm kind of on the fence about it. Why is fracking more accepted in the
:19:35. > :19:39.US, it is less populated with big landowners and generous pay-offs,
:19:40. > :19:43.and better rewards for the local communities. Where as Britain is a
:19:44. > :19:48.land more densely populated, with different property laws, generating
:19:49. > :19:53.lower financial incentives. And far from embracing fracking, a recent
:19:54. > :19:58.poll conducted by YouGov suggests support in Britain is falling. You
:19:59. > :20:02.get the feeling something big will have to change before fracking takes
:20:03. > :20:09.off in the UK as it has in the States.
:20:10. > :20:14.With us are Andrew Austin, the chief executive of IGas, one of the
:20:15. > :20:19.companies who potentially hopes to make money out of fracking in this
:20:20. > :20:24.country. And Caroline Lucas the Green MP is with us this evening.
:20:25. > :20:26.Thank you, it looks like the Geological Survey will confirm there
:20:27. > :20:31.is potentionally billions of barrels of oil under the south-east of
:20:32. > :20:36.England. I know you haven't seen the details of the report, you must be
:20:37. > :20:43.delighted, a lot of potential there? We have known this across the
:20:44. > :20:47.country but particularly in terms of oil in the basin, the area that
:20:48. > :20:52.stretches from Winchester across to Gatwick up to the M 25 and down to
:20:53. > :20:58.the coast at Chichester. But there has been a lot of history of oil
:20:59. > :21:03.exploration in this area. We as a company produce oil and gas from
:21:04. > :21:07.around 20 sites across that area. Around 40 million barrels have been
:21:08. > :21:12.recovered to date across that area. You are already using conventional
:21:13. > :21:15.techniques to produce oil and gas in the south-east of England with
:21:16. > :21:19.people apparently hardly even noticing. Caroline Lucas, that
:21:20. > :21:23.doesn't sound so bad, what have you got to be afraid of? What no-one has
:21:24. > :21:27.talked about is the impact on climate change, it seems to be
:21:28. > :21:31.particularly perverse to be searching after yet more hard to
:21:32. > :21:37.reach fossil fuels when experts are telling us we need to leave 80% of
:21:38. > :21:40.known fossil fuels in the ground if we are to have any hope of
:21:41. > :21:48.preventing two degrees warming. We had the reports recently on climate
:21:49. > :21:51.change, saying the urge to shift energise is closer than ever. That
:21:52. > :21:56.is the direction we should be going in. There is a lot of urgency that
:21:57. > :22:00.millions of householders feel about getting their energy bills down.
:22:01. > :22:07.Businesses want their power costs to come down, in the US fracking has
:22:08. > :22:16.transformed that, gene plies prices falling through the floor. Lord
:22:17. > :22:20.Stern has called it baseless economic, here in the UK if we frack
:22:21. > :22:24.in the UK we don't use the gas or oil in the UK, it gets sold on
:22:25. > :22:27.European markets at the going price. That is different from the States,
:22:28. > :22:30.because it is a much bigger country and they are less locked into the
:22:31. > :22:36.bigger world market they use their own gas and oil as they frack it.
:22:37. > :22:39.Even the experts, even people in the forefront of the fracking ideology
:22:40. > :22:43.are saying, actually, it is not going to lead to higher prices. So
:22:44. > :22:51.if you want higher prices you need to go down the renewable route. What
:22:52. > :22:55.is the point? Let's try to separate out the two different issues that
:22:56. > :23:00.Caroline spoke about, she rightly spoke about both of them. Firstly in
:23:01. > :23:05.terms of climate change, if we are using renewables from my where, or
:23:06. > :23:10.oil and gas from anywhere we are better using it in a highly
:23:11. > :23:15.regulated market close to the place of consumption. So the cost of
:23:16. > :23:19.transporting oil and g in terms of the climate impact of doing that is
:23:20. > :23:23.very, very considerable. Secondly into that mix, if you are going to
:23:24. > :23:31.use any pots sill fuels you need to be using gas rather than coal goal
:23:32. > :23:41.is the enme in this occasion -- enemy in this occasion. I agree gas
:23:42. > :23:45.is better than coal but that is not the question we are confronting. The
:23:46. > :23:48.coal doesn't stay in the ground it gets sold somewhere else and the
:23:49. > :23:51.impact on climate is the same. We should be talking about the
:23:52. > :23:57.difference between a greener energy future, based on renewable energise,
:23:58. > :24:01.and energy efficiency, lots of jobs, lower fuel bills. It is right now
:24:02. > :24:05.people's bills are very high, right now we have to confront the issues
:24:06. > :24:10.and renewables only 4% in this country, don't we need the mix? Can
:24:11. > :24:15.I answer that one, it feels such an ironically that exactly that time
:24:16. > :24:20.when on shore wind is about to become more comparable with fossil
:24:21. > :24:26.fuels in terms of cost, at exactly that time the Government is issuing
:24:27. > :24:31.a moratorium on wind energy, because the main companies are terrified
:24:32. > :24:35.that it will take their place. Isn't it true that for all the reasons
:24:36. > :24:38.discussed in the film it is not going to happen here. People don't
:24:39. > :24:43.want it? There are different issues into this mix. I completely agree
:24:44. > :24:47.with Caroline in terms of the importance of climate change
:24:48. > :24:53.targets. The two degree target is imperative. Prior to this I was
:24:54. > :24:58.involved in the renewable industry, I ran a solar panel manufacturing
:24:59. > :25:02.industry in the United States. A built solar farms. I completely
:25:03. > :25:07.understand and embrace that agenda. If, however, into that mix, in the
:25:08. > :25:11.same way as has happened in the United States. Gas has sur planted
:25:12. > :25:16.coal. You will still need gas in the mix. If you are going to use gas at
:25:17. > :25:23.all you are better using it domestically. In terms of the price
:25:24. > :25:26.argument raised here. Two or he three shale gas sites across the
:25:27. > :25:30.country will not bring down the price of gas for retail consumer. If
:25:31. > :25:34.we have a material shale gas industry in this country, by which I
:25:35. > :25:40.mean around 100 sites across the country, a fraction of the space
:25:41. > :25:43.used for other particular land uses, including renewable energise, then
:25:44. > :25:48.we will start to get to a point where we can have a downward effect
:25:49. > :25:52.on prices. Until we have a material industry that won't happen. But the
:25:53. > :25:56.climate change gains in the meantime are more important. If you have a
:25:57. > :26:06.material industry based on shale you won't get your emissions down. We
:26:07. > :26:09.are out of time on a complicated issue, we look
:26:10. > :26:13.it turns out. It all seemed so easy, the west may
:26:14. > :26:19.never have put boots on the ground, but our finger prints were all over
:26:20. > :26:23.the overthrew of Colonel Gadaffi in 2011, David Cameron even joined his
:26:24. > :26:28.political friend, Nicolas Sarkozy, to take the applause of Libyan
:26:29. > :26:33.crowds. It was relatively quick, if not painless, but not a terrible war
:26:34. > :26:37.that dragged on for years. Maybe not for the west. In the last week
:26:38. > :26:44.around 80 people have been killed and one of Gadaffi's former generals
:26:45. > :26:48.leading an armed uprising says he will fight not talk. After his
:26:49. > :27:01.soldiers attacked the national parliament. The toppling of Muammar
:27:02. > :27:07.Gaddafi was billed by backers as a new type of arm's length
:27:08. > :27:11.intervention. Today I authorised the Armed Forces of the United States to
:27:12. > :27:18.begin a limited military action in Libya. America and its allies acted
:27:19. > :27:30.as the rebel air force, but no boots on the ground. But having empowered
:27:31. > :27:36.the revolutionary brigades, the west is now watching as they tear the
:27:37. > :27:38.country apart. Rival militias are lining up behind a general on one
:27:39. > :27:44.side and on the lining up behind a general on one
:27:45. > :27:47.Islamist-dominated parliament. On Sunday the general's supporters
:27:48. > :27:49.tried to disperse parliament, the National Congress. Even now it is
:27:50. > :27:58.scattered, but one National Congress. Even now it is
:27:59. > :28:03.this evening told us what happened. TRANSLATION: At 6. 30, after the
:28:04. > :28:07.parliament ended its session, and there were just a few of us in the
:28:08. > :28:13.chamber, a big group of armed vehicles arrived, with automatic
:28:14. > :28:17.weapons mounted on top. They started firing indiscriminately, nah a very
:28:18. > :28:21.fast way, then they started breaking into the building and going into the
:28:22. > :28:26.rooms inside. And they were looking for members of the Congress. 20
:28:27. > :28:29.civil servants and one member of the Congress were arrested.
:28:30. > :28:35.When we filmed the first anniversary of the revolution, we watched a the
:28:36. > :28:39.different rebel brigades take over the event. It was time to show off
:28:40. > :28:45.the heavy weaponry and face down rival units. They had refused to
:28:46. > :28:50.disband, and while attempts to form a regular army faltered, the
:28:51. > :28:55.brigade's power actually grew. There is no political settlement yet in
:28:56. > :29:00.Libya between the key tribes and other political forces, until there
:29:01. > :29:03.is a political settlement. Until the transition makes real progress and
:29:04. > :29:07.in two-and-a-half years it has made almost no progress. There isn't
:29:08. > :29:15.really be an effort to build up the regular forces. Serious attempts at
:29:16. > :29:19.demobilising Libya's militias were postponed until after new elections
:29:20. > :29:23.in June 2012. Far from resolving the country's problems, that vote set
:29:24. > :29:28.the scene for further conflict, between east and west, Islamists and
:29:29. > :29:33.secularists. In October 2013 the Prime Minister was briefly kidnapped
:29:34. > :29:39.by one of the armed groups. An ominous sign that gun law was taking
:29:40. > :29:43.over. Militias in the east tried to seize oil exports from September
:29:44. > :29:49.2013 on wards, refusing to recognise the Trippick Government. These same
:29:50. > :29:53.-- Tripoli Government, these same groups back the general. He has
:29:54. > :29:57.quickly built up power over the recent months. The head of the air
:29:58. > :30:04.force was dismissed for providing support to Haftar in April. Very
:30:05. > :30:08.quickly a lot of support has come from a number of quarters for him.
:30:09. > :30:16.There are suspicions, he has been back from overseas. The Dubai-based
:30:17. > :30:21.outlet has been extremely positive in reporting of him. We met the
:30:22. > :30:26.general during the revolution and interviewed him in Gaza. He had
:30:27. > :30:33.rumoured die Thais to the CIA, and during the war he was getting
:30:34. > :30:40.British and French help. Are you receiving practical help whether
:30:41. > :30:50.communications and weapons. We are still waiting. Now we have new
:30:51. > :30:55.reports that he has a new master. TRANSLATION: We believe he's
:30:56. > :30:59.supported by a number of Arab and non-Arab countries in many forms and
:31:00. > :31:03.shapes. We believe they are being sent weapons and jamming devices, we
:31:04. > :31:14.have intelligence that the equipment is reaching the forces in western
:31:15. > :31:19.Libya. Western intervention might have disposed of Gadaffi, but all
:31:20. > :31:23.sorts of forces, regional, tribunal and religious have filled the
:31:24. > :31:28.vacuum. The question is will they destroy a country where westerners
:31:29. > :31:36.still have major economic interests. One of France's most celebrated
:31:37. > :31:44.philosophers, and the man credited in 2011 with persuading Sarkeesian
:31:45. > :31:50.to -- Nicolas Sarkozy to recognise the rebel leaders which ultimately
:31:51. > :31:56.led to the intervention. Do you think Libya is a better place now
:31:57. > :32:01.that Colonel Gadaffi has been toppled. Since before then there was
:32:02. > :32:07.chaos on the ground? I think it is a better place, yes, of course. I'm
:32:08. > :32:14.not sure you can imagine how terrible and horrid was the
:32:15. > :32:21.dictatorship of Gadaffi. It was one of the worst of the last 40, 50
:32:22. > :32:28.years. For sure it is, it was good to topple him. It was right to
:32:29. > :32:34.topple him. It is true that it is not a valley of hundred, but who can
:32:35. > :32:42.give lessons to the Libyan people? Surely not us French? You say it is
:32:43. > :32:47.not of value of honey, but in fact 100 people have been killed since
:32:48. > :32:50.last Friday. There are kidnappings, militia's roaming the place, there
:32:51. > :32:57.have been three Prime Ministers since march and you are suggesting
:32:58. > :33:01.supporting another uprising. Do you know how many people are killed in
:33:02. > :33:07.Syria since three years because there was no intervention, because
:33:08. > :33:14.we did let Bashar Al-Assad commit his bloodbath. This is the real
:33:15. > :33:21.comparison. Of course that 80 people are dead yesterday, Thursday, it is
:33:22. > :33:25.heart-breaking and 80 sons of Libya, a camp of 17th of February, who I
:33:26. > :33:32.know so much killed, this is horrible. The real comparison is how
:33:33. > :33:36.many in Syria because of the nonintervention. What would have
:33:37. > :33:39.happened in Libya without intervention would probably have
:33:40. > :33:43.been the same as what is happening today in Syria.
:33:44. > :33:49.You are now as I understand it supporting the general, so are you
:33:50. > :33:54.just going to keep supporting other uprisings until you get the kind of
:33:55. > :33:58.Government you want? No, no, I don't support anybody, I support the
:33:59. > :34:05.Libyan people. I think that the Libyan people, citizens of the
:34:06. > :34:12.country, of Tripoli and other cities, paid such a high price for
:34:13. > :34:16.their freedom, and for toppling the dictator, that today they deserve
:34:17. > :34:24.peace. They deserve not to be killed, neither by the Islamists,
:34:25. > :34:29.nor by the general. The Libyan people have paid the price, now he
:34:30. > :34:34.deserves piece and freedom. That is what I think. Now what I think also
:34:35. > :34:40.is that if you see the French Revolution, for example, it took
:34:41. > :34:49.time and it took general Bonaparte to achieve finally democracy and
:34:50. > :34:52.freedom. So this is the terrible and tragic course of nearly all
:34:53. > :34:59.revolutions, this is what is happening in Libya and we Europeans
:35:00. > :35:08.we have not the right to give them lessons of good behaviour. It is
:35:09. > :35:12.never like this. You briefly did think you had the right to suggest
:35:13. > :35:16.to your friend, Nicolas Sarkozy, that France and Britain should
:35:17. > :35:20.intervene? I not only thought that France and Britain should intervene,
:35:21. > :35:28.I thought that the intervention should and had to go till the
:35:29. > :35:35.toppling of the dictator. Till the moments the Libyan people could be
:35:36. > :35:43.responsible for its own destiny. Nobody can deprive a people from its
:35:44. > :35:49.own destiny. All people of the world have the right to the side of their
:35:50. > :35:54.future, to decide on their future. It takes time and takes a terrible
:35:55. > :35:59.moment which the one that the Libyan people are facing. It is like this,
:36:00. > :36:11.all over the world, and I would hope that the forces of reason and peace
:36:12. > :36:15.would prevail in my dear Libya. McDonalds workers have probably
:36:16. > :36:19.always wanted to super-size their wage that is come withic that
:36:20. > :36:24.McJobs, it appears they have had enough of their meagre portions, at
:36:25. > :36:31.the food chain's Annual General Meeting shareholders approved the
:36:32. > :36:34.$9. 5 million pay packet. Outside at least 100 staff were arrested as
:36:35. > :36:45.they gathered to demand better wages. Right now some staff are paid
:36:46. > :36:54.not more than the cost of a big -- big Mac Meal per hour. For a second
:36:55. > :36:59.day fast food workers in Chicago marched, these cleaners, cooks and
:37:00. > :37:07.till staff had a simple message for their bosses over the road.
:37:08. > :37:12.till staff had a simple message for McDonalds' employees in the US earn
:37:13. > :37:16.as little as ?5 an hour, or $8. They want at least $15. Fuelling a
:37:17. > :37:22.national debate about pay and equality, when many Americans are
:37:23. > :37:28.struggling to make ends meet. In the hall opposite the McDonald's chief
:37:29. > :37:36.executive had his $#. 5 million pay packet approved with barely a
:37:37. > :37:41.whisker, 94% of shareholders voted with him. It is an outrage, I stood
:37:42. > :37:44.with the fast food workers this morning, who understand they have to
:37:45. > :37:49.keep pressing the organisation to respond to their demand. While they
:37:50. > :37:52.confirm the pay right for the CEO, there has been no response
:37:53. > :37:56.whatsoever to the fact that people are working harder and harder. This
:37:57. > :38:04.corporation is earning record profits, it makes different
:38:05. > :38:07.decisions around the globe. Mary Kay was one of a hundred arrested
:38:08. > :38:10.yesterday at another march to was one of a hundred arrested
:38:11. > :38:16.corporate headquarters. Since the recession has ended lower-wage jobs
:38:17. > :38:24.have grown three-times faster than jobs that pay that $15 mark.
:38:25. > :38:27.McDonald's won't reveal what it is paying the average employee other
:38:28. > :38:33.than it meets minimum wage requirements. America's national
:38:34. > :38:42.minimum wage is $7. 25 an hour, and has been since 2009. President Obama
:38:43. > :38:47.wants to raise it to $10. 10, a move blocked from Congress, still a long
:38:48. > :38:54.way for the dollar 15 an hour the workers are marching for. This is
:38:55. > :39:00.not just a fast food phenomenon, last week all over this there were
:39:01. > :39:07.protests about low pay and working conditions. Populist pushes for a
:39:08. > :39:11.higher wage floor. Whether the US or Switzerland or Germany in its own
:39:12. > :39:15.way, you are seeing mature economies, affluent societies where
:39:16. > :39:19.a large swathe of working people have missed out you see on economic
:39:20. > :39:23.growth before the crisis and have done badly since then. You are
:39:24. > :39:27.thinking trade unions of looking for a way to be relevant to the whole
:39:28. > :39:30.debate on pay and the minimum wage is what they are latching on to.
:39:31. > :39:39.That is part of the reason you are seeing the upsurge in radicalism.
:39:40. > :39:41.McDonald's insists it pay as competitive amount, giving
:39:42. > :39:45.youngsters the chance to move up. Many on the right of the debate
:39:46. > :39:49.claim a significant hike in the minimum wage will cost jobs. I have
:39:50. > :39:53.a huge amount of people who want to raise the minimum wage, they have
:39:54. > :39:58.the right idea what the problem is. The problem is low pay, the wrong
:39:59. > :40:02.idea is the solution they have. Raising the minimum wage creating
:40:03. > :40:06.unemployment and over the long-term reducing the rate on new jobs
:40:07. > :40:12.created. I think unemployment is reducing the rate on new jobs
:40:13. > :40:18.worst evil here. For workers surviving on $8 an hour it might not
:40:19. > :40:22.mean much. Protestors in the US have made headlines this week, whether
:40:23. > :40:30.the executives and politicians are really listening is another matter.
:40:31. > :40:33.Whatever the exact results of the local and European elections held
:40:34. > :40:37.today, one thing is for certain, UKIP has dominated the lead-up to
:40:38. > :40:41.voting. What is less certain is why. Why does the apparent pop all right
:40:42. > :40:46.of the party, what does it say about modern Britain and the issues that
:40:47. > :40:52.matter to the Great British public. I'm joined by the author Bonnie
:40:53. > :40:57.Greer, the chief political commentator in the Telegraph and
:40:58. > :41:02.Independent columnist. Why do you think this has happened this time
:41:03. > :41:09.round? It says something very profound about our politics. For the
:41:10. > :41:15.last ten years we have had all these ernest groups, Helena Kennedy and
:41:16. > :41:18.others saying why are the British people apathetic about politics.
:41:19. > :41:25.Actually the answer has been, which is beyond all these grand and the
:41:26. > :41:29.good is that she and the politicians are apathetic about the British
:41:30. > :41:34.people. They have tried to deny politicalies course to the British
:41:35. > :41:38.people, we have been in a post democratic political environment. If
:41:39. > :41:42.you go back 20 years any discussion of public spending suggesting it
:41:43. > :41:46.might fall or will stay the same was treated by the BBC which has been
:41:47. > :41:50.one of the greatest criminals in all of this as some form of crime
:41:51. > :41:54.against humanity. If you try to discuss immigration, which you
:41:55. > :42:00.weren't allowed to do on the BBC, that would be regarded, I'm sorry it
:42:01. > :42:05.has been acknowledged even by your boss. They are shaking their heads.
:42:06. > :42:12.Any discussion about immigration was treated as a form of racism. Any
:42:13. > :42:18.discussion about Europe was treated as a form of zenophobia, in other
:42:19. > :42:23.words public debate was there. At the same time there was a conspiracy
:42:24. > :42:28.between the three main parties to deprive access to democracy, to the
:42:29. > :42:32.vast majority of voters. The point there I believe Pete certificate
:42:33. > :42:36.trying to make. Thank you for telling what I'm saying. There is
:42:37. > :42:38.something wrong with people not being interested in them and the
:42:39. > :42:42.elite rather than the other way around? This has gone far enough,
:42:43. > :42:46.this has been the Tory of the elections and will continue -- the
:42:47. > :42:49.story of the elections and will continue to be next year. I think
:42:50. > :42:53.there are too many people in this country who got the idea that all
:42:54. > :42:57.their own personal obsessions and I'm not talking about the truly
:42:58. > :43:00.dispossessed, the people truly suffering in all the restructuring
:43:01. > :43:06.that has happened. I'm talking about people who think if I can't get my
:43:07. > :43:12.way, all politicians are crap. I mean am I allowed to say that. You
:43:13. > :43:17.just said it let's not worry about it? Apologies, this idea that
:43:18. > :43:23.democracy has to sustain all my prejudices and what each of us wants
:43:24. > :43:26.is the problem. Has that changed Bonnie, this is a different swathe
:43:27. > :43:32.and level of support for this kind of party this time round, it is new
:43:33. > :43:39.isn't it? It is the UK's tea party moment, the United States got it in
:43:40. > :43:44.2007. As a result, and Peter is right to a tiny extent, of a kind of
:43:45. > :43:49.consensus. That's in the media, that's in the political class, and
:43:50. > :43:54.so you have this other group that gets born in the shadows, and all it
:43:55. > :44:00.needs is a kick-start and this has happened here. This is the United
:44:01. > :44:05.Kingdom's tea heart. And it has all the -- tea party. It has all the
:44:06. > :44:08.hallmarks of it. What is wrong with that? There is nothing wrong. It as
:44:09. > :44:14.movement, it is not a political party. This party is a flag of
:44:15. > :44:19.convience for a lot of people who are deeply ditties gruntled about
:44:20. > :44:24.probe -- deeply disgruntled about progress. It is true going back to
:44:25. > :44:36.what was said about the BBC. Let's not talk too much about the BBC? My
:44:37. > :44:39.point is that the politics has become home midgeised, and within
:44:40. > :44:44.that are various groups on the right and far right taking advantage. I
:44:45. > :44:50.would like to go back to Peter first? I think something horrible
:44:51. > :44:54.happened to British politics, Labour, Liberal Democrats and the
:44:55. > :44:59.Tories were captured by the modernising movement, which met a
:45:00. > :45:03.group of experts, this man Axel Rod, worshipped by my colleagues in the
:45:04. > :45:08.lobby is an example. They don't come from activists, they are experts.
:45:09. > :45:14.What they decided was that 95% of British voters didn't matter. If you
:45:15. > :45:19.voted in a safe seat, if you were a Glasgow ship worker who was out of a
:45:20. > :45:26.job in Glasgow that was a safe Labour seat. Excuse me if you were a
:45:27. > :45:30.Lieutenant Colonel in Tonbrige wells you didn't cut it. If you were a
:45:31. > :45:34.swing voters in a marginal seat constructed around you. Politicians
:45:35. > :45:41.have always been there? This has always been there. That is the
:45:42. > :45:46.revolt. Of the 95%. I do not recognise the country the politics
:45:47. > :45:50.that Peter is decribing, I think what changed was the Internet, the
:45:51. > :45:56.idea that we could complain about and feel dissatisfied about almost
:45:57. > :46:01.everything. Now, I think we do have an enviable democracy, and you know,
:46:02. > :46:06.I hate it that the entire political system is being dumbed down by
:46:07. > :46:11.people like him and creating this mess. To end this, we are in a new
:46:12. > :46:15.age, they are an age of technology, we are moving faster than our
:46:16. > :46:20.political establishment, faster than the journalist, and they, who
:46:21. > :46:23.actually are the ones who have consolidated politics, need to wake
:46:24. > :46:27.up to what people are saying on the left, right and centre, and people
:46:28. > :46:33.who have no political point at all. It is moving faster than they
:46:34. > :46:37.understand. Perhaps none of us can understand what is happening in the
:46:38. > :46:40.country Except he's wrong! That's enough. You can follow all the
:46:41. > :46:46.election excitement throughout much of the night on BBC One and the BBC
:46:47. > :46:50.News channel. While it might not translate into high turnout, these
:46:51. > :46:55.campaigns certainly have not been dull this time round we can safely
:46:56. > :47:02.say that. One event didn't quite work out as planned. That was UKIP's
:47:03. > :47:08.attempt at a corn carnival in Croydon. It was to demonstrate the
:47:09. > :47:11.multicultural credential, but the steel band decided to pick up their
:47:12. > :47:16.instruments when they found out who asked them to play. We thought it
:47:17. > :47:26.was such a shame to get politics in the way of music, here on the
:47:27. > :47:29.results day eve here they are, the endurance steel orchestra with their
:47:30. > :47:42.version of Daft Punk Get lucky. Good evening, it was going to be
:47:43. > :47:46.Wales and more western parts of England that get the heaviest of the
:47:47. > :47:54.rain tomorrow morning. Further north I
:47:55. > :48:07.Northern Ireland in the afternoon might struggle to get into double
:48:08. > :48:08.Northern Ireland in the afternoon figures where... . (steel band)