:00:00. > :00:10.The leaders of the European Union are meeting tonight in the aftermath
:00:11. > :00:15.of an election which saw many of their citizens blow the institution
:00:16. > :00:24.a resounding raspberry. But are they listening? Well, you would like to
:00:25. > :00:31.think so, but there are signs tonight that plenty want to carry on
:00:32. > :00:36.regardless. Popular capitalism is a crusade, a crusade to franchise the
:00:37. > :00:40.many in the economic life of Britain. Oh yes? Does capitalism
:00:41. > :00:44.have to be like this? Is there another way, way to find of creating
:00:45. > :00:50.an inclusive capitalism? The boss of John Lewis believes so.
:00:51. > :00:55.Got a million to invest? Why not buy Tracey Emin's bed? We will talk to
:00:56. > :01:03.her about the nuttiness of the art market and whether she has got any
:01:04. > :01:05.better at making the bed. And Justin Rowlatt joins the
:01:06. > :01:08.Brazilian forces taking measures to try protecting indigenous peoples
:01:09. > :01:21.from the predations of the modern world. The officers decide there is
:01:22. > :01:28.only one thing for it. She is going to burn it down.
:01:29. > :01:36.Oh dear, what do we do now? It would have been a delight to see the 28
:01:37. > :01:38.elected leaders of the European Union and their associated
:01:39. > :01:41.functionaries gathered beneath a banner like that tonight, when they
:01:42. > :01:46.met for their free dinner in Brussel, to discuss what the
:01:47. > :01:50.weekend's elections mean. David Cameron said they meant that people
:01:51. > :01:54.felt the EU was "too big, too bossy, too interfering", which seems pretty
:01:55. > :01:58.accurate. But these are the very people who made it big, bossy and
:01:59. > :02:07.interfering, and what are they going to do about it now? Mark Urban is in
:02:08. > :02:12.Brussels. Do you think the implications of the
:02:13. > :02:18.vote have sunk in? Well, the thing is, different implications are
:02:19. > :02:23.sinking in indifferent international members. For the UK and France it is
:02:24. > :02:27.very clear what happened, there was an earthquake of right-wing US
:02:28. > :02:32.scepticism. In Spain and Greece, it was clear what happened, it was a
:02:33. > :02:36.left-wing rejection of authority that rocked the system, of
:02:37. > :02:41.austerity, I beg your pardon. In countries like Italy and the
:02:42. > :02:44.Netherlands, there was a far lesser turnout for Eurosceptic parties than
:02:45. > :02:51.some of the incumbents had feared even a couple of months ago. Instead
:02:52. > :02:53.of having an awkward squad in the European Parliament of up to 200
:02:54. > :03:00.Eurosceptics, as someone suggesting that polls might, if they came true,
:03:01. > :03:04.deliver, by this point would be considerably less. What's more, you
:03:05. > :03:10.have this different national awkward squads, some on the far left, summer
:03:11. > :03:14.fascist, who will find it hard to agree about anything. Instead of a
:03:15. > :03:18.coherent Eurosceptic block, I think we are looking at a much harder
:03:19. > :03:23.Parliament to manage, but one which some people think because of that
:03:24. > :03:29.can still be managed. Is there really a sensible business as usual
:03:30. > :03:34.there? I think because of that feeling, that perhaps even this can
:03:35. > :03:37.be got through, there are extraordinary things going on here.
:03:38. > :03:43.These are the things which normally happen after European election. You
:03:44. > :03:48.get an election of a new chairman of commission, the civil service, the
:03:49. > :03:50.real Eurocrats that people on the right in the UK like to excoriate.
:03:51. > :03:54.That happens with a lot of close right in the UK like to excoriate.
:03:55. > :03:58.door meetings. The person who ends up taking over
:03:59. > :04:00.door meetings. The person who ends current favourite is a Luxembourg
:04:01. > :04:04.politician, is not some who was elected on Sunday, it is someone who
:04:05. > :04:10.is chosen in these backroom meetings and we are told that these can
:04:11. > :04:11.expect to go on for several weeks, while the
:04:12. > :04:13.expect to go on for several weeks, parliamentary caucuses haggle over
:04:14. > :04:22.who should parliamentary caucuses haggle over
:04:23. > :04:28.attempt to get some serious change between the relationship between
:04:29. > :04:31.this country and Europe? He is trying to exert influence including
:04:32. > :04:35.over the choice of who runs the European Commission next. He had his
:04:36. > :04:39.loose alliance of parties including the Dutch, the Swedes and the Danes,
:04:40. > :04:43.who were working with him to try and open up some of these areas and say
:04:44. > :04:49.that member countries should be able to take more of their so-called
:04:50. > :04:53.competencies or powers, if you like. We see for example, the Dutch, not
:04:54. > :04:58.under the same pressure from Euro sceptics as they thought they might
:04:59. > :05:01.be, in these elections, will they still be so keen on that? One thing
:05:02. > :05:04.is the shore, Mr Cameron still still be so keen on that? One thing
:05:05. > :05:08.the backing of the Swedish Prime Minister.
:05:09. > :05:14.I think the situation in the United Kingdom is one of the most important
:05:15. > :05:18.to attend two for the coming five-year period. For Sweden it is
:05:19. > :05:22.of the utmost importance that Britain stays inside the European
:05:23. > :05:24.Union and we also take into account the situation we
:05:25. > :05:34.mandate for the incoming commission. Britain where we now formulate a
:05:35. > :05:35.Now, in pushing that case, Mr Cameron, the
:05:36. > :05:45.have to convince a disparate and disunited Europe
:05:46. > :05:47.have to convince a disparate and when they will find it so
:05:48. > :05:50.have to convince a disparate and gain consensus. That is the mountain
:05:51. > :05:57.that David Cameron has declined. Thanks, Mark.
:05:58. > :06:01.One thing the Eurosceptic voters do have in common is they do not seem
:06:02. > :06:13.to like the EU as it is. What are the chances of reform? Chris Cook
:06:14. > :06:18.reports. Where should the EU go next? The
:06:19. > :06:23.weekend's European Parliament election results may be focusing
:06:24. > :06:28.some minds. Eurosceptics did very well. Ministers now have
:06:29. > :06:28.some minds. Eurosceptics did very big post-election decision. Who
:06:29. > :06:35.should lead the Commission, the executive of the
:06:36. > :06:39.EU? But what chance is there David Cameron getting his way, pushing
:06:40. > :06:44.through his plans for reform and renegotiation? We need an approach
:06:45. > :06:49.that recognises that Europe should concentrate on what matters, and
:06:50. > :06:50.growth and jobs and not try to do so much. We need an approach that
:06:51. > :06:54.recognises that much. We need an approach that
:06:55. > :06:58.big, too much. We need an approach that
:06:59. > :07:03.David Cameron is keen to block the favourite to be European Commission
:07:04. > :07:11.President, this man, Jean-Claude Junker. But is because Britain --
:07:12. > :07:16.David Cameron wants to be negotiate Britain's terms. On one hand David
:07:17. > :07:23.Cameron wants to see a European union which does less, a slimmed
:07:24. > :07:27.down European Union. On the other hand, you have shone Claude Junker,
:07:28. > :07:32.the frontrunner for European Commission president who wants to
:07:33. > :07:37.see more centralisation and more Brussels. Reform of any kind will be
:07:38. > :07:42.tough. There is not a consensus of what Europe should be. An EU poll
:07:43. > :07:47.from last year found that while more than 70% of people in Luxembourg,
:07:48. > :07:52.Malta and Germany consider themselves to be EU citizens, the
:07:53. > :07:56.equivalent number was only 40% in Greece and the UK. There is also
:07:57. > :08:01.great variation in what people worry about. I think there are 28 kinds of
:08:02. > :08:07.unhappiness and that is what these elections tell us. There are groups
:08:08. > :08:11.of the unhappy. There is British and Danish unhappiness, North European
:08:12. > :08:15.liberals outside the euro zone. There are the Germans who are
:08:16. > :08:20.unhappy because they feel they have to pay for these profligate
:08:21. > :08:25.southerners. And most of all, there are the debtor countries in the euro
:08:26. > :08:32.zone who feel unhappy because of these austerity policies imposed on
:08:33. > :08:42.them. That number is borne out by the polls. The number of citizens
:08:43. > :08:47.who are pro EU has fallen. This has strengthened the case for reform in
:08:48. > :08:51.the EU. They do not strengthen the case for Cameron's renegotiation.
:08:52. > :08:56.Everyone now sees we have to inform the EU to make it deliver better,
:08:57. > :09:00.deliver jobs, deliver more economic growth, meet these discontents,
:09:01. > :09:07.across the whole European continent. Renegotiate not --
:09:08. > :09:11.renegotiation on your hand, means delivering specific shopping list
:09:12. > :09:19.for Britain for Cameron's backbenchers and UKIP voters. The
:09:20. > :09:22.sooner we leave, the better. But more Eurosceptics in the European
:09:23. > :09:28.Parliament might actually strengthen Cameron's hand. These elections
:09:29. > :09:38.which have seen a record number of anti-EU parties will I think serve
:09:39. > :09:43.as a wake-up call. If we do not go for reform, eventually, voters might
:09:44. > :09:49.throw the baby out with the bath water and go for the anti-EU
:09:50. > :09:56.parties. If it is not Cameron, it is the pen and that is a strong
:09:57. > :10:01.argument. Keep an eye out on who the new European Commission president
:10:02. > :10:09.is. It is a first hint about whether the EU is going to he'd David
:10:10. > :10:11.Cameron's call for reform. Joining me now is Sir Malcolm
:10:12. > :10:15.Rifkind, the former Foreign Secretary and from Brussels Ska
:10:16. > :10:17.Keller, the leader of the Greens in the European Parliament and
:10:18. > :10:26.candidate for European Commission president.
:10:27. > :10:30.Let me start with you, Sir Malcolm. Do you think these elections
:10:31. > :10:34.strengthen or weaken David Cameron's negotiations issue? In the
:10:35. > :10:39.short term it is quite a blow to have Nigel Farage do so well. But
:10:40. > :10:44.the more I think about it, in a curious way, it may make his job
:10:45. > :10:49.easier. The single most important thing I have heard in the last 24
:10:50. > :10:53.hours has been for President Hollande of France. His reaction was
:10:54. > :10:57.the European Union will have to withdraw from certain things it
:10:58. > :11:02.needn't be doing in the first place. Today, he repeated that. If he is
:11:03. > :11:08.serious, if France now believes that has to be less involvement in the
:11:09. > :11:14.European Union in matters which are not crucial, that are done uniformly
:11:15. > :11:20.throughout Europe, that a huge ally for the United Kingdom. We know that
:11:21. > :11:24.Angela Merkel is very anxious that the United Kingdom should be
:11:25. > :11:29.accommodated in some way. I do not want to overdo it but that has to be
:11:30. > :11:32.a serious possibility that for different reasons, the three major
:11:33. > :11:38.countries recognise the need for some change. It is a problem because
:11:39. > :11:44.we do not know what David Cameron is after. It would be quite foolish for
:11:45. > :11:47.him to spell that out at the moment. The negotiation cannot begin and be
:11:48. > :11:52.completed by our general election. You cannot start a negotiation when
:11:53. > :11:57.the people you are negotiating with no it is not certain you will even
:11:58. > :12:02.be in government a year from now. There is nothing to stop you doing
:12:03. > :12:07.that. This is an international negotiation. It is not an internal
:12:08. > :12:11.British matter. If you were to succeed, neither Britain nor any
:12:12. > :12:15.other country will reveal its bottom line prematurely. That is not the
:12:16. > :12:23.way you conduct an international mugger station. I am not asking you
:12:24. > :12:31.to tell us, but do you know what he is likely to try? I can guess. The
:12:32. > :12:35.crucial point is what my Conservative colleagues have to
:12:36. > :12:39.recognise, or indeed anyone who supports a renegotiation, is any
:12:40. > :12:41.negotiation at the end of the day involves compromise. The most
:12:42. > :12:47.successful negotiation does not mean one side gets 100% and everyone else
:12:48. > :12:50.gets nothing. The key will be to identify things that make a real
:12:51. > :12:55.difference to the United Kingdom, like getting rid of the working time
:12:56. > :12:58.directive, protecting London as a European financial centre, and a
:12:59. > :13:02.range of issues of that kind which will benefit the United Kingdom
:13:03. > :13:06.without other countries that have to agree to that having to explain to
:13:07. > :13:11.their electors why some real harm has been done to their interests. It
:13:12. > :13:16.can be done but it requires deft diplomatic skills.
:13:17. > :13:19.Cigar Keller, these election results are pretty wholesale repudiation of
:13:20. > :13:33.your idea of your -- we have had a great success. When
:13:34. > :13:39.you look at the Tories, they have not had a great success. Cameron is
:13:40. > :13:46.not at all clear of what he means with reform. You cannot say reform
:13:47. > :13:51.this, reform that. You have to be clear what should be reformed in
:13:52. > :14:00.which way because these elections, like all elections, you have to pick
:14:01. > :14:11.your cards on the top of the table. Top of the pile in the UK's UKIP and
:14:12. > :14:14.in France it is Front National. We've seen Euro-sceptic countries
:14:15. > :14:19.also in the Netherlands. Euro-sceptic parties are not the
:14:20. > :14:21.only ones who've been winning in some countries, even though
:14:22. > :14:27.unfortunately not everybody seems to have noticed that there is a broad
:14:28. > :14:30.array and rage of parties. We've seen very different election
:14:31. > :14:36.results. The Greens have been doing very well. That's for a reason. We
:14:37. > :14:43.are obviously advocating for reform but we say what sort of reform we
:14:44. > :14:48.want, what sort of Europe we want, what jobs we are aiming for, where
:14:49. > :14:54.to put more investments in green energy, things that have benefitted
:14:55. > :14:58.the UK and would benefit the UK even more if it were to be done. We are
:14:59. > :15:01.not just coming empty slogans. But isn't it the case that in these
:15:02. > :15:06.circumstances it would be a brave man or woman who would say the
:15:07. > :15:12.chances of a renegotiation of the relationship between member states
:15:13. > :15:16.are higher now? Isn't it much more likely that the European Union will
:15:17. > :15:23.say what we have we hold and we'll stay where we are for now, thank you
:15:24. > :15:26.very much? We have a European Parliament with different political
:15:27. > :15:31.parties. They have had all their chances in the campaign to say which
:15:32. > :15:35.Europe they want and to campaign for their ideas. I do think we still
:15:36. > :15:40.have plurality in this Parliament, that's good, but if you want to say
:15:41. > :15:44.you want to renegotiate a contract you have to say which direction it
:15:45. > :15:49.should go and make that clear. We can only negotiate if it is clear
:15:50. > :15:52.what each side wants. Sir Malcolm Rifkind, you are going to need to
:15:53. > :15:58.give people in this country, in order to head off what's clearly a
:15:59. > :16:04.big upswell of opinion, a pretty clear idea of the direction of
:16:05. > :16:07.travel at least. Absolutely right. The fundamental objective, and it is
:16:08. > :16:12.not just the United Kingdom but Sweden, Denmark, the Dutch have
:16:13. > :16:16.themselves said the days of ever closer union are behind us. It looks
:16:17. > :16:22.as though it may be France as well. We are talking of a sizeable bloc,
:16:23. > :16:26.including two of the three largest countries in the European Union
:16:27. > :16:29.talking the language of reform. That means a crucial necessity of showing
:16:30. > :16:34.that the European Union is only about doing the things jointly which
:16:35. > :16:39.have to be done jointly. Each member state is a democratic country. There
:16:40. > :16:43.is no need for the kind of interference in a whole range of
:16:44. > :16:46.social policy, employment policy, economic policy that can better be
:16:47. > :16:50.done by national Governments directly answerable to their own
:16:51. > :16:55.electorate. Sir Malcolm Rifkind and Ska Keller, thank you both.
:16:56. > :16:59.Has there ever been a time when capitalism hasn't been said by
:17:00. > :17:01.someone or other to be in crisis? But now it's not just Marxists
:17:02. > :17:04.predicting its inevitable collapse, but ardent capitalists themselves
:17:05. > :17:08.worrying about whether there might be some other way of running the
:17:09. > :17:11.thing. Today, a constellation of big-heads - Bill Clinton, Christine
:17:12. > :17:15.Largarde of the IMF, even Prince Charles - wrung their hands and gave
:17:16. > :17:18.us the benefit of their ideas on something called inclusive
:17:19. > :17:21.capitalism, which they hope may be a way of arresting what seems to be a
:17:22. > :17:30.constantly widening gap between rich and poor. The Governor of the Bank
:17:31. > :17:33.of England was there too, warning tonight of the dangers of what he
:17:34. > :17:35.called "unchecked market fundamentalism". Here's Katie
:17:36. > :18:04.Razzall. Has capitalism ever been less
:18:05. > :18:06.popular, as discontent spreads, financial crisis and a rise in
:18:07. > :18:09.inequality have been grist financial crisis and a rise in
:18:10. > :18:14.mill for those who argue that the free market as we know it has had
:18:15. > :18:19.its day. This kind of social unrest in part
:18:20. > :18:24.explains the inclusive capitalism conference in London today. Bill
:18:25. > :18:27.Clinton, Prince Charles, the Bank of England Governor and the head of the
:18:28. > :18:34.IMF all talking about why capitalism needs to be renewed. Their audience
:18:35. > :18:38.- investors who hold a third of the world's assets, $30 trillion worth.
:18:39. > :18:43.The numbers are striking. If you take the 85 wealthiest people in the
:18:44. > :18:47.world, they can all fit in a double-decker bus, right? They have
:18:48. > :18:52.more amongst themselves than half the population of the world. The
:18:53. > :18:58.poorest half of course. But that's 3. 5 billion people. Not that those
:18:59. > :19:02.85 people would ever likely travel by double-decker bus, but in the
:19:03. > :19:06.City of London today capitalism was under scrutiny by the capitalists.
:19:07. > :19:09.People have fought for years to define it for their political ends.
:19:10. > :19:14.On paper, this definition of an economic system which uses wealth to
:19:15. > :19:18.produce goods sounds fairly anodyne, but when trust is lost, it is a
:19:19. > :19:23.wake-up call, as the conference heard today. Bank bail-outs,
:19:24. > :19:26.unemployment and recession have all contributed to a sense of them and
:19:27. > :19:31.us. British politicians have tried to tap in to the popular belief that
:19:32. > :19:36.capitalism needs rewiring. I call for a new popular capitalism. Are
:19:37. > :19:42.you on the side of the wealth creators or the estate strippers?
:19:43. > :19:47.The producers or the predators? Not everyone accepts premise of today's
:19:48. > :19:51.conference - that capitalism needs some work. You create the sense that
:19:52. > :19:54.where the wealth have gone wrong recently it is something to do with
:19:55. > :19:58.the economic system. I don't believe capitalism has broken down. I think
:19:59. > :20:02.these things are driven by some of the events of the financial crisis
:20:03. > :20:08.and what's happened since. By and large those can be characterised of
:20:09. > :20:13.failures of regulation not market processes. But making capitalism
:20:14. > :20:19.more inclusive was the agenda, taking in as opposed to excluding or
:20:20. > :20:24.leaving out. I was only too pleased to go over and arrange for him to
:20:25. > :20:27.open his first account. The world's moved on since the days of the
:20:28. > :20:33.trusty bank manager who knew your name. But the excesses of the
:20:34. > :20:39.banking industry were under fire today. Reforms have been too slow,
:20:40. > :20:45.said Christine Lagarde, in part because the sector has fought them.
:20:46. > :20:50.Within the last few hours Mark Carney gave his critique of
:20:51. > :20:54.capitalism. After he said his number one priority is addressing the issue
:20:55. > :20:58.of banks that are too big to fail. Six years after Lehman Brothers we
:20:59. > :21:02.are still talking about it. It is not that it is low on the priority
:21:03. > :21:07.list. It is that at the top of the priority list and authorities are
:21:08. > :21:12.truly working to ensure, as much as possible, that that has happened. So
:21:13. > :21:17.why are the bank Governor and some of the world's biggests so
:21:18. > :21:21.interested in inclusive capitalism? Perhaps because they know that
:21:22. > :21:24.inequality can lead to instability, anathema to capitalism. And the last
:21:25. > :21:28.thing they want is another banking crash.
:21:29. > :21:31.Joining me now are Sir Charlie Mayfield, chairman of the John Lewis
:21:32. > :21:38.Partnership, and Zanny Minton Beddoes, economics editor of The
:21:39. > :21:43.Economist. Is this way of conducting capital inch, do you think,
:21:44. > :21:49.sustainable? Which way of capitalism? The non-inclusive? I
:21:50. > :21:54.think by definition not. I don't think it's in crisis. There wasn't a
:21:55. > :22:02.sense of immediate crisis at this gathering today, a huge gathering of
:22:03. > :22:06.some $30 trillion... There were loads of wealthy people there. There
:22:07. > :22:11.were. I think a powerful one is that it is no long they are the rising
:22:12. > :22:14.tide is raising all boats. The rise in inequality means that people at
:22:15. > :22:17.the top are doing incredibly well and lots of people further down are
:22:18. > :22:22.not. To the the traditional idea that when an economy grew and there
:22:23. > :22:27.was growth, that no longer is so much the case. But capitalism,
:22:28. > :22:33.hasn't it Sir Charlie Mayfield, always depended on inequality? So
:22:34. > :22:36.there was a recognition today that capital capitalism doesn't mean
:22:37. > :22:41.equality. That some inequality is inevitable. And indeed necessary.
:22:42. > :22:45.But there can also be a point you reach when it is excessive and the
:22:46. > :22:53.point that was made repeatedly today is a lot of people are feeling that
:22:54. > :22:57.it has got no a stage where income and equality has reached levels that
:22:58. > :23:01.are concerning. I do think that's a worry. Another feature is that
:23:02. > :23:05.technology is changing the way the job market is working. On the one
:23:06. > :23:09.hand there are some people doing very well as a result of technology.
:23:10. > :23:13.They are able to do a lot more than before and be paid more for it. But
:23:14. > :23:17.there are middle order jobs that used to be good paying jobs which
:23:18. > :23:21.have been replaced by technology. The risk is we are seeing a
:23:22. > :23:25.workplace that's changing shape. People talk about the hollowing out
:23:26. > :23:29.of the workplace. Those two things together I think create a situation
:23:30. > :23:35.which is worrying. And needs to be addressed. And they are related. One
:23:36. > :23:39.of the reasons that the inequality is widening is because of the change
:23:40. > :23:44.in technology, which is rewarding people with the skills to useta
:23:45. > :23:50.technology. The mid-skilled level jobs are being automated away. I
:23:51. > :23:54.think the challenge is, how do you equip people with the skills that
:23:55. > :23:59.they need to rots per in this fast-changing environment? That's
:24:00. > :24:03.where Sir Charlie is doing lots of interesting stuff. Do you think
:24:04. > :24:08.about education, do you think about training? Can waffle about
:24:09. > :24:13.inclusiveness but there are concrete issues to be addressed. There is a
:24:14. > :24:16.lot of waffle. What would inclusive capitalism look like in a way that
:24:17. > :24:24.we can recognise as different. My definition is that the rising tide,
:24:25. > :24:28.that prosperity raises all boats. It doesn't mean absolutely equality,
:24:29. > :24:33.you need some inequality, but workers gaining as well as
:24:34. > :24:37.shareholders, and everyone is improving somewhat. What is the John
:24:38. > :24:42.Lewis mod Snell That's different to a lot of other businesses in a sense
:24:43. > :24:45.that we are owner by people in the business. So you don't have
:24:46. > :24:49.shareholders? We have shareholders but they work in the business.
:24:50. > :24:52.90,000 people in the business own the company. The interesting thing
:24:53. > :24:57.about the partnership is it was founded less than 100 years ago, but
:24:58. > :25:01.as a response to perceived inequality of capitalism.
:25:02. > :25:04.Essentially it was saying let's have labour employing capital rather than
:25:05. > :25:11.the other way around. But that isn't a model you can apply everywhere is
:25:12. > :25:14.it? No, I do think there is an opportunity for employee ownership,
:25:15. > :25:18.and perhaps more than that for different forms of ownership to play
:25:19. > :25:23.a bigger part in our economy. We've become very focused on the PLC,
:25:24. > :25:28.which will always be I'm sure the predominant form, but not the only
:25:29. > :25:32.one. The way it has worked in most market economies like ours in the
:25:33. > :25:38.past has been that business does what it does, and Government does
:25:39. > :25:44.what it can to aten wait some of the consequences of these disparities.
:25:45. > :25:47.And there was a long term view that business is business and government
:25:48. > :25:51.is government. To a degree that's right. A lot of what's going on now
:25:52. > :25:53.is thinking about what should government be doing differently? It
:25:54. > :25:57.is not government be doing differently? It
:25:58. > :26:03.government is better, far from it. And what should business be doing
:26:04. > :26:08.differently? This advir tore, if you wanted a concrete definition of
:26:09. > :26:10.inclusive capitalism, he called it CEO, the conduct of business,
:26:11. > :26:16.education and training and ownership. I think education and
:26:17. > :26:19.training is central. We've got this unbelievably faction-changing world.
:26:20. > :26:22.It is changing as dramatically as it was in the first Industrial
:26:23. > :26:26.Revolution. And yet we have no radical change do our education
:26:27. > :26:33.system. We haven't radically rethought training. We have a
:26:34. > :26:39.generation of skills that they need to succeed. What would you like
:26:40. > :26:42.Government to do? First of all, we should acknowledge from today is
:26:43. > :26:48.that was business people coming together. There were no serving
:26:49. > :26:51.politician there is at all. That's a recognition by business people that
:26:52. > :26:56.business needs to play a bigger part. What I would like to see from
:26:57. > :27:01.Government is on the one hand in principle the Government can play a
:27:02. > :27:06.bigger role of acting as convenor. There are ways it can engage with
:27:07. > :27:12.business people and others to solve these big challenges. An example of
:27:13. > :27:16.that would be education. You've seen over the last ten or 15 years most
:27:17. > :27:20.successful businesses have completely re-engineered the way
:27:21. > :27:25.they operate. You are seeing now that working lifetimes are going to
:27:26. > :27:31.be at least 20% longer and the innovation cycle is turn turning
:27:32. > :27:39.longer than than before. And yet we still take the view that education
:27:40. > :27:43.takes place between 5 and 21. I want a greater Porosity between the world
:27:44. > :27:46.of business and education. There are lots of opportunities for that to
:27:47. > :27:51.happen at lots of different levels. Thank you both very much indeed.
:27:52. > :27:54.The hundreds of girls kidnapped in Nigeria are no closer to rescue
:27:55. > :27:58.tonight. The Nigerian Army claimed this morning it knew where they are,
:27:59. > :28:02.and just wasn't recovering them because of the risk a liberation
:28:03. > :28:06.mission would pose to them. But tonight the BBC has discovered this
:28:07. > :28:09.may be a long way from the truth. Boko Haram, the organisation which
:28:10. > :28:12.wants to impose a medieval Islamic caliphate in Nigeria and which
:28:13. > :28:19.seized them, meanwhile continues its murderous campaign, with more
:28:20. > :28:22.attacks today. A body count by the Reuters news agency reckons that
:28:23. > :28:27.almost 500 people have been killed since the girls were abducted. The
:28:28. > :28:35.BBC's security correspondent, Frank Gardner, is here. Do they have any
:28:36. > :28:40.idea where these girls are? Only very roughly, Jeremy. Everybody I've
:28:41. > :28:47.spoken to says they don't have the precise location. Let's look at the
:28:48. > :28:51.map. There's Nigeria, there's Abuja the capital, the girls were taken
:28:52. > :28:57.from Chibok in the north-east corner. They've been taken it is
:28:58. > :29:02.believed to the north of there to a forest. That's an area twice the
:29:03. > :29:06.size of Rwanda, 16 times size of London. So saying they know where
:29:07. > :29:11.the girls are is a bit of a moveable fierce. They've been sending drones
:29:12. > :29:17.over, satellite planes and spy planes. The girls have been split up
:29:18. > :29:21.into groups. Some are being held under ground in caves. A hostage
:29:22. > :29:25.rescue would be suicidal and result in a blood bath, which is why the
:29:26. > :29:36.Nigerian military is saying, rightly, that's not on the cards for
:29:37. > :29:41.now. Have there been any attempts that negotiations? You have the
:29:42. > :29:47.president, Goodluck Jonathan saying we are not going to accede to their
:29:48. > :29:51.demands, but we have heard they came very close to deal which got
:29:52. > :29:57.scuppered at the last minute that they were going to release 50 of the
:29:58. > :30:03.girls which is a start, in exchange for 100 Boko Haram amp is in is.
:30:04. > :30:14.That got scuppered. We learnt tonight there was a DVD that proves
:30:15. > :30:20.the girls are live. If that is true and there is no way of corroborating
:30:21. > :30:24.it, that is extremely important. The fundamental principles of kidnap and
:30:25. > :30:28.ransom negotiations are, you establish proof of life, are the
:30:29. > :30:32.girls alive and well, and proof of ownership. Are the people you are
:30:33. > :30:37.talking to the people holding them? If you have got that, you have the
:30:38. > :30:43.basis of negotiation. That is the only way the girls will get out of
:30:44. > :30:48.there alive. Thank you. And so to bed.
:30:49. > :30:54.Few artworks have divided opinion as drastically as Tracey Emin's My
:30:55. > :30:59.Bed, made or rather un-made 16 years ago in her Waterloo council flat. Of
:31:00. > :31:06.course, it is just a bed and a grubby one at that. But it also
:31:07. > :31:10.expresses a state of mind and expresses the life of Warman who has
:31:11. > :31:15.made her personal history the stuff of her art. It is a period piece,
:31:16. > :31:23.one of the most celebrated examples of a time when the and font terrible
:31:24. > :31:28.of the Young British artists could scandalised by ideas. Charles
:31:29. > :31:32.Saatchi, who made so much of the art scene, is willing to part with it if
:31:33. > :31:36.you should happen to have a few hundred thousand pounds burning a
:31:37. > :31:42.hole in your pocket. Tracey Emin is here now. It was a good few years
:31:43. > :31:49.ago you made that bed or produced that piece. 16 years ago, a long
:31:50. > :31:54.time. What does it mean to you now? This morning I was installing it.
:31:55. > :31:59.What is shocking is everything from the bed is kept in little tiny
:32:00. > :32:03.plastic bags and it is all out on a chess table and it is like a frenzy
:32:04. > :32:09.lab. As I am opening everything it is half like a crime scene and half
:32:10. > :32:13.like a diary. Nearly everything I am touching is 1 million miles away
:32:14. > :32:17.from me now. It is like a time capsule of my life really. I found
:32:18. > :32:22.it a really sad thing to see that bed. It was a bed occupied by
:32:23. > :32:28.someone, and I think you were unhappy at the time, when two? I was
:32:29. > :32:36.very unhappy but also, that period of my life, was highs and lows. So
:32:37. > :32:42.when you see the bed, how odd that it is preserved, such a mess is
:32:43. > :32:47.preserved so precisely. It is funny. As an artist, when you're young and
:32:48. > :32:50.unknown, there is no way you ever thinking your heart that it will
:32:51. > :32:56.stay around forever or for a long time. And especially something like
:32:57. > :33:01.the bed which is so serial, it is throwaway things, things which
:33:02. > :33:04.should still not be existing. When I first the bed in Japan, this is
:33:05. > :33:10.something most people don't know, the Japanese customs people would
:33:11. > :33:17.not allow it in to Tokyo or the airport. We had to prove that I was
:33:18. > :33:21.an artist, that I was alive, that was the other thing. They wanted to
:33:22. > :33:25.know if I was still alive. I think it was Nixon wrote at the Tate and
:33:26. > :33:31.the British Council had to send letters saying I was a living artist
:33:32. > :33:37.in Britain -- Nick Sirota. Why did they not wanted in? I did not have
:33:38. > :33:47.time for transport and I had all of the stuff around the bed inside the
:33:48. > :33:49.suitcases. All the old condom 's and fag ends? Yes, all in bags but
:33:50. > :33:57.inside the suitcases so they were going to destroy the suitcases. Of
:33:58. > :34:00.course it was a great call celebre, and various people got very hot
:34:01. > :34:06.under the collar screaming this is not art. What did you think when you
:34:07. > :34:11.heard that? I just screamed louder and said, yes it is, it is my art.
:34:12. > :34:14.With being an artist, if you have true conviction about what you're
:34:15. > :34:18.doing and you are doing it for the right reasons, no one can take that
:34:19. > :34:22.away from you. I proved that with the bed, just the testimony of time,
:34:23. > :34:27.the fact that it is still here, it has become more iconic, it is more
:34:28. > :34:31.seminal, it has more presents now than it did then. Then people
:34:32. > :34:37.thought I was a silly young thing doing a shocking piece of art. When
:34:38. > :34:40.you actually see it now, like this morning, I'm not saying you saw my
:34:41. > :34:47.bed this morning or anything like that, or anyone else for that
:34:48. > :34:53.matter! But the bed, it looks very sweet and almost harmless in a way.
:34:54. > :34:57.Now it is definitely middle-aged. It is middle-aged and it needs to be
:34:58. > :35:02.somewhere where it is preserved. Does it remind you of a part of your
:35:03. > :35:07.life which is very distant. Guess, you can say that again. When I was
:35:08. > :35:10.going through that different thing, there are condoms, contraceptive
:35:11. > :35:15.pills, cigarettes, vodka, tiny underwear, all of those things which
:35:16. > :35:20.are to do with being a girl and coming through some kind of
:35:21. > :35:24.transition, going through something, some cathartic state. I
:35:25. > :35:35.do not live like that any more. Now you wear enormous knickers expat
:35:36. > :35:40.this bed is now worth a fortune. Isn't that odd? Some people think it
:35:41. > :35:44.is probably a joke that it is worth that much and some people probably
:35:45. > :35:49.think it is worth more. It depends what our perception of art is, what
:35:50. > :35:53.is important, what our values are. The bed I think is iconic, it is
:35:54. > :35:59.seminal and it did make a splash in art history. I do not know how long
:36:00. > :36:05.for but at the moment it is still there. How much did Charles Saatchi
:36:06. > :36:11.by four? 150,000. Now it is being talked about as going for a million.
:36:12. > :36:18.You will not see any of that increase presumably? No. What you
:36:19. > :36:23.feel? I am quite philosophical about my work being sold on. Charles has
:36:24. > :36:28.looked after it. I know he adored it. If he does sell it, all of that
:36:29. > :36:32.money will be used to buy more art and create an educational programme
:36:33. > :36:36.and I think that is a useful thing. I think that is really positive. I
:36:37. > :36:41.have always had the attitude that if someone buys my art, they might
:36:42. > :36:45.literally only to resell it, but I will always own the idea and the
:36:46. > :36:48.essence of it and it truly is mine. No one can ever take that away from
:36:49. > :36:53.me. That is why I am on the programme tonight talking to you and
:36:54. > :36:57.talking about my bed. Tracey Emin, thank you very much. Thank you.
:36:58. > :36:58.talking about my bed. Tracey Emin, The World Cup begins in just over a
:36:59. > :37:01.fortnight, much to The World Cup begins in just over a
:37:02. > :37:04.various parts of the population of Brazil, who think grotesque amounts
:37:05. > :37:08.have been spent on the preparations. The government sees the competition
:37:09. > :37:15.as a way to celebrate its great economic growth. The flip side of
:37:16. > :37:18.all of that, is all the stories of destruction in the Amazon rainforest
:37:19. > :37:21.and the obliteration of the ways of life of indigenous people living
:37:22. > :37:24.there. As Justin Rowlatt has discovered, this is a problem the
:37:25. > :37:30.government knows it needs to be seen to be tackling.
:37:31. > :37:31.government knows it needs to be seen We are flying over the edge of the
:37:32. > :37:32.Amazon. We are flying over the edge of the
:37:33. > :38:01.spotted an illegal sawmill. The team is led by Officer
:38:02. > :38:05.Gonsalves. This raid is part of huge operation including the Brazilian
:38:06. > :38:18.army, air force and military police. It is a first in the history of
:38:19. > :38:23.Brazil. It is called operation Awa and stopping illegal logging is part
:38:24. > :38:29.of it. The key objective is to save an entire tribe, the Awa. The agents
:38:30. > :38:36.find some incriminating evidence, the account books. Look at this.
:38:37. > :38:44.They have got the total value, 4700 Riaus and there is a fee here, 202
:38:45. > :38:50.pay the police. This year, Brazil is hosting the World Cup. In 2016, it
:38:51. > :38:54.will stage the Olympics. These events have helped drive a building
:38:55. > :39:00.boom creating a massive demand for timber. They have made the forest
:39:01. > :39:05.reserves of the indigenous people like the Awa, even more attractive
:39:06. > :39:16.to loggers. The offices decided there is only one thing for it.
:39:17. > :39:46.An officer from Brazil's indigenous peoples Department is taking me into
:39:47. > :40:01.the Awa's reserve. The Awa live in the last islands of
:40:02. > :40:05.forest left in this region. They may be near to the edge of the jungle
:40:06. > :40:13.but they are one of the most isolated communities on earth. Many
:40:14. > :40:17.Awa grew up without any outside contact -- contact with the outside
:40:18. > :40:24.world. Many small groups still live completely separately. He says they
:40:25. > :40:33.are in an area now where they know there are uncontacted people. There
:40:34. > :40:38.may be 40 or 50 people here. There is a spider web of tracks in the
:40:39. > :40:42.forest. They know the loggers are here as well. The loggers are
:40:43. > :40:48.rapidly destroying the remaining forest, putting the 350 or so Awa in
:40:49. > :40:55.such peril that they have been described as the most endangered
:40:56. > :41:07.tribe on the planet. I first met the tribe four years ago. Last time I
:41:08. > :41:12.was here, they took me on a hunt. I am not going to dress like that!
:41:13. > :41:17.They are one of the few hunter gatherer tribes left in the Amazon.
:41:18. > :41:20.With so much of the forest gone, the hunt leader wanted to show me how
:41:21. > :41:37.hard it is to find food. I am back to find out how the Awa
:41:38. > :41:47.are getting on. It is amazing to come back. I never thought I would,
:41:48. > :41:55.actually. Hello, I remember you. Do you remember me? We came here
:41:56. > :42:00.before. For years and, if anything, the Awa's plight has only deepened.
:42:01. > :42:07.They tell me these days you can sometimes hear loggers chainsaws
:42:08. > :42:12.from the village. Many of the adults here grew up in uncontacted
:42:13. > :42:18.communities. They say they have been fleeing the loggers ever since they
:42:19. > :42:21.were children and with good reason. This man says loggers have been
:42:22. > :42:45.known to kill indigenous people when they encounter them in the forest.
:42:46. > :42:50.Not only do loggers destroy habitats, they open up the forest
:42:51. > :42:58.with tracks bringing in settlers who clear the land. That is why this
:42:59. > :43:08.operation has to be on such a large scale.
:43:09. > :43:21.They have to evict the 400 farming families who illegally occupy the
:43:22. > :43:25.Awa's land. All of these people will be moved out of the town and they
:43:26. > :43:29.have come here to ask how their preparations are going, whether they
:43:30. > :43:33.need help with transport, and the idea is these guys will be given
:43:34. > :43:40.another plot of land somewhere else in Brazil where they can farm. Some
:43:41. > :43:41.families have been here for 18 years. Naturally, they are sad to
:43:42. > :43:44.leave.