:00:00. > :00:07.The Government and the Iraq inquiry have come to a deal
:00:08. > :00:09.which means the totality of what Tony Blair and George Bush
:00:10. > :00:13.said to each other in the lead-up to war will be forever secret.
:00:14. > :00:15.Instead, we will have gists and quotes
:00:16. > :00:21.Without the whole truth, will the inquiry be a sham?
:00:22. > :00:25.I'll be asking Tony Blair's friend Lord Falconer.
:00:26. > :00:28.UKIP won the Euro vote with a particular vision of England,
:00:29. > :00:38.and it's not one this man subscribes to.
:00:39. > :00:46.# Britain isn't cool, you know, it's really not that great.
:00:47. > :00:50.# It's not a proper country... Billy Bragg is here to argue
:00:51. > :00:53.with Peter Hitchens And as Brazil prepares to welcome
:00:54. > :00:58.the football fans to the World Cup, in shoring up the country's
:00:59. > :01:11.21-year dictatorship. TRANSLATION: I had effectively been
:01:12. > :01:15.disappeared, all the psychological pressure to destabilise me, I
:01:16. > :01:19.couldn't sleep, I did not know if it was day or night. It was day or
:01:20. > :01:24.night. Messing with someone's personality. -- it is a very
:01:25. > :01:27.powerful way of messing. Gists and quotes. That's what the
:01:28. > :01:32.Iraq Inquiry will be able to report of the communications
:01:33. > :01:33.and discussions between Tony Blair and George Bush
:01:34. > :01:37.in the run up to the Iraq War in a deal that has taken an age
:01:38. > :01:40.to hammer out. This may mean that the inquiry
:01:41. > :01:43.which Lord Chilcot said, in his opening statement,
:01:44. > :01:45.expected to report in 2010, But will it be of any use
:01:46. > :01:50.if the many conversations between the then British Prime
:01:51. > :01:53.Minister and the US president No, say the families of soldiers
:01:54. > :01:57.killed in action. I'll be talking to the former
:01:58. > :02:00.Lord Chancellor, Lord Falconer, Tony Blair's confidante
:02:01. > :02:17.then and now in a moment. No British document or British
:02:18. > :02:21.witness will be beyond the scope of the inquiry... No limits on what
:02:22. > :02:28.Chilcot could ask or to whom, but limits on how much we get to know.
:02:29. > :02:32.We may never see the promises Blair made to Bush on Iraq, we may never
:02:33. > :02:36.know what he committed to before asking Parliament or the public.
:02:37. > :02:41.More than ten years since the war began, five years since Sir John
:02:42. > :02:46.Chilcot's inquiry into what happened started, he has announced he will
:02:47. > :02:52.not be able to publish the full extent of crucial contacts between
:02:53. > :02:55.Blair and Bush. For some of the families of people killed, only
:02:56. > :03:00.getting part of the truth is not enough. We want to know the whole
:03:01. > :03:06.and the full reasons why we went into this very spurious war, which
:03:07. > :03:13.was after all a war of option, not necessity. So I want the full facts
:03:14. > :03:18.why my son died, not just the gist bid. The block on publishing
:03:19. > :03:21.documents is not just intelligence or military information, but Blair
:03:22. > :03:26.and Bushpolitically intimate communications, and one particular
:03:27. > :03:33.note written after a meeting between the two after a meeting at a ranch
:03:34. > :03:38.in Texas the year before the war. Blair's critics said he made a
:03:39. > :03:42.promise to go along with an invasion before he knew of it could be kept.
:03:43. > :03:46.I was saying, you can count on us, we will be with you, but these are
:03:47. > :03:52.the difficulties. As you see, the rest of the note is about all the
:03:53. > :03:57.issues and difficulties. So in a sense what I was saying to America
:03:58. > :04:01.is, look, and by the way this is how George Bush took it, I am absolutely
:04:02. > :04:05.sure, whatever the political heat, if I think this is the right thing
:04:06. > :04:10.to do, I am going to be with you. I am not going to back out because the
:04:11. > :04:14.going gets tough. After months of wrangling, the inquiry has announced
:04:15. > :04:19.it will publish what they describe as gists and quotes, requested from
:04:20. > :04:25.25 notes and more than 130 conversations between Mr Blair and
:04:26. > :04:30.President Bush. Potential gaps provided in the material have, they
:04:31. > :04:34.say, now been addressed, but some material has only been received very
:04:35. > :04:40.recently. There is also agreement to publish a small number of full
:04:41. > :04:44.extracts from Cabinet papers. The inquiry team has been able to say
:04:45. > :04:48.everything they have asked for, as well as hearing countless witnesses
:04:49. > :04:53.here, but government officials will have to agree precisely what is
:04:54. > :04:56.published. And nothing that suggests the views of President Bush will be
:04:57. > :05:01.revealed. Despite weeks and weeks of hearings, hours and hours of
:05:02. > :05:06.evidence, the final report was never going to be the full, pure,
:05:07. > :05:10.unadulterated truth. But this is so clearly a compromise between the
:05:11. > :05:15.inquiry and officials who are determined not to publish all,
:05:16. > :05:20.private correspondence of Tony Blair, and Americans reluctant to
:05:21. > :05:25.play ball. One source familiar to the process told me that it is as
:05:26. > :05:30.simple as the Americans saying no. If Tony Blair had some exchanges
:05:31. > :05:34.with George double you Bush, some of them should be in the public domain,
:05:35. > :05:39.but on the whole if you are now going to say to every world leader
:05:40. > :05:41.that any communication with the British Prime Minister is not
:05:42. > :05:46.confidential, they will stop talking to us. We may now say it was a
:05:47. > :05:51.terrible mistake, like the Afghanistan war, which still goes on
:05:52. > :05:56.as a terrible mistake, but at the time it was Tony Blair, it was me,
:05:57. > :06:00.Jack Straw, William Hague, David Cameron, taking that decision after
:06:01. > :06:04.lengthy debates, thinking about it and deciding that it was the right
:06:05. > :06:09.thing to do. There is no other truth. But for military families,
:06:10. > :06:14.without publishing the fullest version of events, what can this
:06:15. > :06:17.inquiry really achieve? I need to draw a line under this, and until I
:06:18. > :06:26.know the full truth, I cannot do that. And it will be an open sore
:06:27. > :06:31.until the day I die. Iraq is still grappling with the aftermath of war.
:06:32. > :06:36.11 killed yesterday, the level of violence is the highest in years.
:06:37. > :06:41.Our political legacy is still to be settled. But a less than explicitly
:06:42. > :06:44.complete version of events from the Chilcot inquiry may still leave room
:06:45. > :06:46.for both sides to choose their truths.
:06:47. > :06:48.A little earlier I was joined by Charlie Falconer,
:06:49. > :06:54.former Lord Chancellor and still close friend of Tony Blair.
:06:55. > :06:57.I started by asking him who the Iraq inquiry was for.
:06:58. > :06:59.It's for the public to see what happened
:07:00. > :07:03.in relation to decisions leading up to the Iraq
:07:04. > :07:07.and it's for the public to discover what the truth of the position is.
:07:08. > :07:09.I remember at the time of the discussion
:07:10. > :07:12.whether the inquiry would be public or private, you said very clearly
:07:13. > :07:16.that it needed to be public so the public would have confidence in it.
:07:17. > :07:20.Absolutely. Surely the idea that we will just have gists and quotes
:07:21. > :07:23.of the correspondence between Tony Blair and George Bush
:07:24. > :07:24.means that confidence will be undermined.
:07:25. > :07:29.because the inquiry have had all of the material for three years.
:07:30. > :07:33.They will be able to summarise what they've got, and what's more,
:07:34. > :07:37.in relation to the open hearings, remember when Tony Blair gave
:07:38. > :07:41.evidence in the inquiry, he referred to what most people regard,
:07:42. > :07:44.quite openly, with the consent of the inquiry,
:07:45. > :07:47.to the most sensitive parts of the correspondence.
:07:48. > :07:49.So I don't think there's any real sense
:07:50. > :07:52.that things have been kept from the public.
:07:53. > :07:54.Have you spoken to Tony Blair about this? Today, yes.
:07:55. > :08:01.Was he evincing the idea that it should be reported in full?
:08:02. > :08:04.Well, he's saying it's a matter for the Government
:08:05. > :08:09.and a matter for Chilcot and the Government to reach an agreement.
:08:10. > :08:11.He will accept any conclusion they have reached,
:08:12. > :08:14.he's not been consulted about the agreement they reached.
:08:15. > :08:18.He's expressed the view in the past that there should be
:08:19. > :08:20.some appropriate degree of confidentiality,
:08:21. > :08:23.which is obviously right, but in this instance,
:08:24. > :08:27.the question of what the inquiry can publish is a matter for them.
:08:28. > :08:31.But it's easy for Tony Blair to say he'll go along with the Government,
:08:32. > :08:36.that there's not going to be full disclosure.
:08:37. > :08:40.It's for the Government to make up their mind.
:08:41. > :08:43.They've got to balance the ongoing relationship
:08:44. > :08:47.with other heads of state against the openness of this inquiry.
:08:48. > :08:51.What is it in his correspondence? Have you seen it?
:08:52. > :08:56.I have, and I assume it's not the content of this correspondence,
:08:57. > :09:01.it is the fact of a British inquiry releasing information of this sort.
:09:02. > :09:05.Hang on, that means this Government is second guessing what might happen
:09:06. > :09:11.in the future, so therefore, at some sort about what the impact it might
:09:12. > :09:14.have an Anglo-American relations, people are not going to see the
:09:15. > :09:17.entirety of this correspondence, it is all supposition.
:09:18. > :09:21.They are going to know the substance of the correspondence,
:09:22. > :09:28.and they will have seen the critical parts quoted in the open hearings.
:09:29. > :09:32.You are repeating the idea that Tony Blair has made it clear that some of
:09:33. > :09:36.the most sensitive stuff has already come out in the public hearings,
:09:37. > :09:41.but if the public doesn't see the totality of the correspondence,
:09:42. > :09:45.it's fair to assume the public will be suspicious.
:09:46. > :09:47.Why should they trust politicians just now?
:09:48. > :09:51.Because in the past they feel they have not been able to.
:09:52. > :09:56.because it is not the politicians that will determine the gists.
:09:57. > :09:59.Chilcot and his fellow enquirers have had this correspondence...
:10:00. > :10:02.Actually, they've had it for three years, so they have had
:10:03. > :10:06.every opportunity to consider it, and they are independent.
:10:07. > :10:11.I don't think people think Chilcot and the other members
:10:12. > :10:15.of the inquiry are like politicians, they are independent people.
:10:16. > :10:19.But if they are independent people, you say the Government is making the
:10:20. > :10:23.decision the full correspondence should not be revealed.
:10:24. > :10:29.So Chilcott does not have a free hand in this, he's not independent.
:10:30. > :10:34.He would wish to release the whole lot, the Government have said,
:10:35. > :10:37.for reasons that they don't want to damage relations
:10:38. > :10:41.with America in the future, they have reached a compromise,
:10:42. > :10:44.and that was the compromise that has been made public this afternoon.
:10:45. > :10:48.So we are hidebound by the Americans, essentially.
:10:49. > :10:55.It is for us to decide, the Americans cannot make the decision,
:10:56. > :10:59.but a judgment has been made by the British Government,
:11:00. > :11:01.and Chilcot has reached an accommodation
:11:02. > :11:07.with the Government whereby they give us
:11:08. > :11:11.as much as they want in terms of gists.
:11:12. > :11:14.I am not sure it is an unsensible compromise.
:11:15. > :11:15.It is perfectly convenient for Tony Blair.
:11:16. > :11:19.either for Tony Blair or anybody else,
:11:20. > :11:22.because if the inquiry, which is independent, want to condemn him
:11:23. > :11:25.or anybody else, this agreement does not in any way prevent them
:11:26. > :11:28.from either condemning or approving or whatever conclusion they reach.
:11:29. > :11:32.What would you say to the families who are suspicious of all this?
:11:33. > :11:35.Who feel you have just said you saw nothing in that correspondence that
:11:36. > :11:38.you would feel would be damaging in any to Anglo-American relations?
:11:39. > :11:41.If it was up to you, you would reveal it.
:11:42. > :11:45.Why should the public have any confidence?
:11:46. > :11:51.Well, because they have got an independent inquiry
:11:52. > :11:53.with reputable people who are independent of the politicians
:11:54. > :11:56.who are going to make the judgments. Trust the inquiry.
:11:57. > :11:58.With a resolution to this issue, do you think
:11:59. > :12:04.I do, my judgment is there will be a report before the end of year.
:12:05. > :12:10.Lord Falconer, thank you very much.
:12:11. > :12:17.I am joined now by diplomatic editor Mark bourbon, first of all, Tony
:12:18. > :12:22.Blair now has nothing to fear, if he ever had. Well, I don't know. It's
:12:23. > :12:26.true to say I have been talking to contacts about what we can now
:12:27. > :12:30.expect, and what would be in these letters sent to people who were
:12:31. > :12:35.facing criticism from the inquiry. It is true, I am told, it will not
:12:36. > :12:39.be levelled at him as a charge that he manipulated the intelligence
:12:40. > :12:43.about weapons of mass destruction. Just like the foreign affairs
:12:44. > :12:46.committee, the intelligence and security committee, the happen
:12:47. > :12:50.inquiry, this one will not say that. But I am told that it will levelled
:12:51. > :12:56.charges of mismanagement against Tony Blair about the way he handled
:12:57. > :13:01.the politics and the way he was optimistic about what would happen
:13:02. > :13:07.in Iraq. But this is not just about Tony Blair, what are people saying
:13:08. > :13:11.about the report? I think it is inevitable, because of the emotions
:13:12. > :13:15.that Tony Blair is Vokes in people, for and against on this question,
:13:16. > :13:20.that it blocks out an awful lot of what the inquiry was meant to do,
:13:21. > :13:24.which was to look at how this very serious foreign policy step was
:13:25. > :13:29.taken, military step, intelligence, to analyse what was done wrong. Now
:13:30. > :13:33.I am hearing that dozens of people are going to get these letters. This
:13:34. > :13:40.includes not just politicians, Mr Blair and his cabinet members, but
:13:41. > :13:43.officials, intelligence people, senior armed forces officers, all
:13:44. > :13:48.facing criticisms. This is going to take a long time. The people who
:13:49. > :13:51.have been called to the inquiry or are reported on, what do they do
:13:52. > :13:59.with these letters? Is there an appeal? I believe they have a
:14:00. > :14:02.month, so there is a process, they have to put together the letters.
:14:03. > :14:07.This whole dispute has been about what they can quote from in
:14:08. > :14:13.justifying some of these criticisms that will be levelled. Could it mean
:14:14. > :14:16.the end of careers? A lot of these people are already out of government
:14:17. > :14:21.service or the military, or wherever they were at the time, it is 2003
:14:22. > :14:23.and the subsequent to that. They will get letters, they will have a
:14:24. > :14:27.chance to respond, and if the will get letters, they will have a
:14:28. > :14:29.chance to respond, and inquiry thinks that the response is
:14:30. > :14:33.justified, they might alter it, and it will go into the final report.
:14:34. > :14:38.People are saying that, before the end of the year that is realistic.
:14:39. > :14:42.If you want to be cool, you have to have Beats by Dr Dre on your ears,
:14:43. > :14:45.so Apple have taken it one step further today and have bought
:14:46. > :14:48.the whole company for $3 billion in their biggest acquisition ever.
:14:49. > :14:51.But distinctive and expensive as the headphones are, it's apparently
:14:52. > :14:54.the Beats' music streaming service, the biggest rival to Spotify,
:14:55. > :15:13.Here's Jim Reed with the story. A clever canny bet on the future or a
:15:14. > :15:16.sign of desperation? Apple's decision to either trendy
:15:17. > :15:19.electronics company Beats tells us something about where the whole
:15:20. > :15:24.entertainment industry might be heading. Its best-known products,
:15:25. > :15:37.range of fashion headphones, plastered with a giant logo. This
:15:38. > :15:45.pair of headphones. ?219.95. And by the way, they are really quite
:15:46. > :15:47.expensive. The deal will make multimillionaires of the founders,
:15:48. > :15:54.one of those the influential music executive Jimmy Ivy described the
:15:55. > :16:01.white headphones from Apple like sounding like mosquitoes. The Forbes
:16:02. > :16:06.list adjuster changed. It came out two weeks ago for them they need to
:16:07. > :16:09.update the Forbes list. The other, Dr Dre is seen getting into trouble
:16:10. > :16:18.boasting about the sale before it was signed off. The first
:16:19. > :16:24.billionaire in hip-hop. Many in the know say Beats's products seem to be
:16:25. > :16:31.lacking quality but they're not selling a device but lifestyle. Dr
:16:32. > :16:37.Dre has been in the game for 30 years. It's responsible for many
:16:38. > :16:42.rappers, and he's one of those people who mentors and changes the
:16:43. > :16:45.game constantly. Dr Dre says these are the best headphones to listen to
:16:46. > :16:51.music, people will take it seriously. Kids will take it
:16:52. > :16:55.seriously. He is the doctor. But this is clearly about more than just
:16:56. > :16:59.headphones and Alec tonics. It's about the future of the music
:17:00. > :17:05.industry itself. That electronic. Just like downloading has wiped out
:17:06. > :17:12.the record store, so new technology is threatening to take over in the
:17:13. > :17:15.same way. Apple's iTunes store still rules the market for online music
:17:16. > :17:21.but there are very worrying signs for the technology giant. Sales in
:17:22. > :17:26.the USA slumped by one quarter this year. Instead, younger customers are
:17:27. > :17:31.switching to a new breed of Internet streaming services where you pay a
:17:32. > :17:34.monthly subscription and listen to any track whenever you want on a
:17:35. > :17:40.phone or computer but you never own the music itself. It's very
:17:41. > :17:44.interesting because the notion that we no longer own any of our music,
:17:45. > :17:50.that there is no physical collection, too many of us, it seems
:17:51. > :17:53.extraordinary. We use to understand something about a person when it
:17:54. > :17:57.went into their house and saw what books and records they had and CDs.
:17:58. > :18:02.And you don't do that any more. Under this scenario, that all goes,
:18:03. > :18:08.and we are invisible except we are not big of that sort of identity
:18:09. > :18:11.shows up online. Beats runs one of the largest streaming services
:18:12. > :18:16.available in the USA but not yet in the UK for the instead of using
:18:17. > :18:23.computer algorithms it employs teams of human taste makers to music to
:18:24. > :18:27.listen to. But with just 250,000 paying subscribers, it is still much
:18:28. > :18:32.smaller than rivals like spot of five full cup with more than 10
:18:33. > :18:39.million worldwide. A dealer this size is attractive to Apple because
:18:40. > :18:44.it has such deep pockets full of the company had ?95 billion in cash just
:18:45. > :18:47.sitting in its account. These headphones have become a fashion
:18:48. > :18:51.statement and what's really interesting, I think, Apple is
:18:52. > :18:57.always managed to play both the culture side and the technology side
:18:58. > :19:01.and brought it together. It's understood the value and the power
:19:02. > :19:04.of that in the community and its strength is often been together
:19:05. > :19:08.technology to get out of the way in order for people to experience
:19:09. > :19:15.culture more directly. I think of this deal plays right into that. It
:19:16. > :19:19.might make sense on paper but this is still a gamble for the world 's
:19:20. > :19:23.biggest technology company. The success or failure of this deal
:19:24. > :19:25.could decide not just how Apple performs, but how the music industry
:19:26. > :19:28.looks in a decade 's time. UKIP's spectacular success
:19:29. > :19:31.in the European elections speaks to a certain view of the UK
:19:32. > :19:34.and its constituent parts, Nigel Farage has even offered to go
:19:35. > :19:37.head to head with the First minister In particular,
:19:38. > :19:40.UKIP represents an Englishness which, to the singer and campaigner
:19:41. > :19:43.Billy Bragg, is unimaginable. Here he is singing Take Down
:19:44. > :20:02.the Union Jack. UK. # It's really not cool that no.
:20:03. > :20:08.# It's not that great. # It's not a proper country. It doesn't even have
:20:09. > :20:11.a patron saint. # It's just an economic union. # It is past its
:20:12. > :20:16.sell by date. Well, I'm joined now by two very
:20:17. > :20:19.different types of Englishman. As is the author and Mail on Sunday
:20:20. > :20:26.columnist Peter Hitchens. You delivered a lecture tonight
:20:27. > :20:31.where you were talking about the notion of Englishness. Don't you
:20:32. > :20:34.think Britishness exists? It exists but is coming under attack from the
:20:35. > :20:41.idea of an independent Scotland or Devo Max Scotland. Before the
:20:42. > :20:44.independent referendum, the three main parties offer maximum
:20:45. > :20:50.devolution for Scotland. People in England are saying, why can't we
:20:51. > :20:55.have some of it? You would like to see a federal system? Personally, I
:20:56. > :21:02.would like to see assemblies in each of the English regions with the same
:21:03. > :21:05.powers as Scotland. The boat across Europe, particularly UKIP, it's a
:21:06. > :21:12.against globalisation and the way we deal with globalisation I believe is
:21:13. > :21:23.to have bringing localism to people. -- provoked. -- the vote. It's
:21:24. > :21:27.nothing to do with globalisation but with government. People living in
:21:28. > :21:31.its own country, running itself under laws which its own people are
:21:32. > :21:36.chosen. That's an entity which is not a country. It's dissolving as a
:21:37. > :21:39.country because so many people have been trying to dissolve it and
:21:40. > :21:43.there's strong pressure from the EU which likes country to be sliced up
:21:44. > :21:48.into regions and smaller parts before it swallows them up. That's
:21:49. > :21:52.what's behind the destruction of the union. The European Union's
:21:53. > :21:57.inability to tolerate other federations on its territory. The
:21:58. > :22:04.idea of England to you, is it something you are dear to? No, I've
:22:05. > :22:13.always tried to defend the idea of Britain -- you adhere to. The
:22:14. > :22:22.problem is that, because England has been under attack from within, for
:22:23. > :22:25.many people in Britain, who didn't wanted to continue, who wanted to
:22:26. > :22:30.dissolve it, they have used nationalism to do it. The problem
:22:31. > :22:36.for the English if they are not in the driving seat of these forces.
:22:37. > :22:41.The Scottish eye in the driving seat for devolution. The EU are in the
:22:42. > :22:45.driving seat for globalisation, so the British state, England is a
:22:46. > :22:49.country, written does another patron saint, football team, but England is
:22:50. > :22:56.a country which has allowed its identity to be wrapped in the union
:22:57. > :23:01.Jack since the glorious Revolution. We have got to pick up the threads
:23:02. > :23:07.of Englishness. You say for George and the Dragon? They are different
:23:08. > :23:10.traditions in England. If people see the flag of St George on the back of
:23:11. > :23:16.a white minivan, they are immediately taken opinion. You never
:23:17. > :23:24.say that with a Welsh flag or St Andrew? You have tried to reclaim
:23:25. > :23:33.Englishness? From home? From whom? There is an element within UKIP,
:23:34. > :23:38.little England. The other day factor English National party now. A lot of
:23:39. > :23:42.people in England are puzzled by the fact for some reason the other
:23:43. > :23:45.nations of the UK seem to want to tear themselves away and declare
:23:46. > :23:52.loyalty to somebody else. Scotland isn't going to be independent.
:23:53. > :23:54.Ireland will not be independent. Northern Ireland will not be
:23:55. > :23:59.independent when it leaves, they will be provinces of the EU. Instead
:24:00. > :24:04.of going to Brussels to London, they will go direct. It's barely possible
:24:05. > :24:10.for the UK to be a sovereign country any more. For these other ones do it
:24:11. > :24:20.is beyond. I don't understand how you can set the... -- set of their
:24:21. > :24:32.and demand self-determination cash set there. --
:24:33. > :24:40.I think Scotland has more in common with England. That's up to the
:24:41. > :24:46.people of Scotland to say not you. One of the reasons why Scotland is
:24:47. > :24:51.likely I think to leave totally or through Devo Max is because of the
:24:52. > :24:55.feebleness of the British response. Whole idea of unionism has lost all
:24:56. > :24:59.force because the main party which was most do defend it has become a
:25:00. > :25:05.European party. The Conservative Party ought to have been defending
:25:06. > :25:11.the union. And the Labour Party. How can you defend the British UK whilst
:25:12. > :25:16.simultaneously campaigning for the EU? They are viable entities. The
:25:17. > :25:22.Scots Apple for self-determination is a response to globalisation, the
:25:23. > :25:27.supranational capitalism which is manifested in the city of London.
:25:28. > :25:31.Are you suggesting people in Scotland are not for the idea of the
:25:32. > :25:36.European Union? Not at all. I'm suggesting there are no longer
:25:37. > :25:40.willing to allow the market to solve all the problems that society
:25:41. > :25:46.presents. There's that dogma we've had since the years of Thatcherism.
:25:47. > :25:50.It wasn't away by new Labour. You are mixing of two different things
:25:51. > :25:54.for the European Union imposes globalisation on the market and its
:25:55. > :25:58.members in a ruthless fashion. If you think Scotland will escape that
:25:59. > :26:04.by leaving the UK, you are by much mistaken. Let's be clear, it seems
:26:05. > :26:07.to me, what the people that want a separate Scotland are saying, they
:26:08. > :26:14.want it within the European Union. They may not get it. It is what is
:26:15. > :26:19.fundamentally made practically possible. Before then, only a token
:26:20. > :26:27.independence move would have been impossible which would have been a
:26:28. > :26:30.dependent... I totally disagree. The public has 100% independent and
:26:31. > :26:36.Scotland is just as viable as the Irish Republic. The Irish Republic
:26:37. > :26:41.didn't attain it until it joined Europe and broke away from Britain.
:26:42. > :26:46.That's when it became serious. Before that, it'd been a token
:26:47. > :26:52.independence. Let's look to the future, the idea of a regional
:26:53. > :26:59.assembly, a federalism, where England is reborn as a different
:27:00. > :27:04.entity. Once that starts, who knows? I could set myself up, by a large
:27:05. > :27:07.jumper and grow an enormous beard and become a Cornish nationalist and
:27:08. > :27:13.subsidies and money would flow towards me. All kinds of things will
:27:14. > :27:18.happen to England once the UK ceases to exists. All kinds of nationalism
:27:19. > :27:20.to become possible. All of them will ultimately be provinces of the EU
:27:21. > :27:26.and therefore not independent at all. It's a Morris dancing, it's not
:27:27. > :27:31.a real country, a real country is people living on its own territory
:27:32. > :27:35.making its own laws. That's not what any of these pledges will be. If
:27:36. > :27:42.Nigel Farage more in touch with England and you are? He's in touch
:27:43. > :27:49.with a certain type of England. A lot of people voted for him. People
:27:50. > :27:52.were voting for him, the discontent of globalisation. For many people,
:27:53. > :27:58.globalisation is intangible but the EU, it enforces globalisation, and
:27:59. > :28:03.gives Google the opportunity to talk out against it. We need to reform
:28:04. > :28:09.the EU so it becomes more less about national capitalism. It is not able
:28:10. > :28:15.to be reformed. Thank you both very much indeed. Billy Bragg will play
:28:16. > :28:18.as out tonight. You will have to do is find out what song he is playing.
:28:19. > :28:21.Brazil will soon be the centre of the football-loving world.
:28:22. > :28:23.A country famous for producing one of the best
:28:24. > :28:28.But what has been forgotten by many is that at the height
:28:29. > :28:30.of Pele's stellar career, Brazil was a military dictatorship.
:28:31. > :28:32.President Dilma Rouseff, who was herself imprisoned and tortured,
:28:33. > :28:36.set up a Truth Commission two years ago, and now that Commission has
:28:37. > :28:38.produced evidence that makes uncomfortable reading for Britain.
:28:39. > :29:03.The world's spotlight is on Brazil, football the popular obsession.
:29:04. > :29:06.But here there is now a new fascination with the past
:29:07. > :29:11.and the decades of military dictatorship.
:29:12. > :29:17.more about the forgotten, dark side of Brazil.
:29:18. > :29:31.democratically elected left-wing government in 1964.
:29:32. > :29:39.The fear was of Soviet expansion after Cuba's Communist revolution.
:29:40. > :29:46.There followed 21 years of dictatorship.
:29:47. > :29:49.We've found compelling evidence that Britain not only welcomed the regime
:29:50. > :29:56.but actively collaborated with the generals.
:29:57. > :29:59.Torture was the generals' main tool of repression.
:30:00. > :30:04.called the Young People's Popular Uprising.
:30:05. > :30:09.They're now tracking down the torturers and publicly shaming them.
:30:10. > :30:14.Hundreds died or disappeared during military rule.
:30:15. > :30:20.but many were young students, union leaders or journalists.
:30:21. > :30:26.were subjected to extreme physical violence before they were killed.
:30:27. > :30:29.But from the early 1970s, things changed.
:30:30. > :30:32.Survivors speak of a new form of psychological torture,
:30:33. > :30:39.a method that came to be called the English system.
:30:40. > :30:41.The hub of the regime's torture apparatus
:30:42. > :30:46.inside the headquarters of the military police.
:30:47. > :30:52.Alvaro Caldas was a journalist and member of a militant group.
:30:53. > :30:57.He was brought here, severely beaten and tortured with electric shocks.
:30:58. > :31:00.Three years later, he had given up politics,
:31:01. > :31:06.but still he was rearrested and brought back.
:31:07. > :31:10.TRANSLATION: I was in the same place,
:31:11. > :31:13.but I noticed there were marked differences.
:31:14. > :31:19.and the smell made me feel really sick.
:31:20. > :31:26.and there was this sound which alternated loud and soft.
:31:27. > :31:30.When I was questioned, I always had to wear a hood.
:31:31. > :31:36.All this psychological pressure to destabilise me.
:31:37. > :31:39.I couldn't sleep, I didn't know if it was day or night.
:31:40. > :31:44.It's a very powerful way of messing with someone's personality.
:31:45. > :31:54.If I had been there for two weeks or a month, I would have gone mad.
:31:55. > :31:58.This frail old man was once a notorious torturer.
:31:59. > :32:00.Colonel Paolo Malhaes came to give evidence
:32:01. > :32:09.unrepentant for his record of killing and mutilation of victims.
:32:10. > :32:32.the special cell in Rio was based on an idea learned in the UK.
:32:33. > :32:36.We found out that in a private conversation with the prosecutor,
:32:37. > :32:41.the Colonel had admitted he himself had been to Britain.
:32:42. > :32:47.was killed in a suspicious burglary at his home.
:32:48. > :32:50.Buried with him are the details of exactly what he learned.
:32:51. > :32:53.It's likely to have been the controversial stress techniques
:32:54. > :33:02.that the British trained agents of the Brazilian military?
:33:03. > :33:05.Well, we've come to see a man who actually interviewed many
:33:06. > :33:12.of the highest ranking generals while they were still alive.
:33:13. > :33:15.Are you convinced, from your interviews,
:33:16. > :33:21.that there was collaboration between the British and the Brazilian army?
:33:22. > :33:24.Definitely. Why would they mention this?
:33:25. > :33:28.Why were they looking abroad to learn how to interrogate people?
:33:29. > :33:33.My guess, based on what I've read, what I've heard,
:33:34. > :33:41.is that their simple brute techniques were not working.
:33:42. > :33:46.several generals told him they'd sent officers to London.
:33:47. > :33:49.One said, "The Americans teach, but the English are masters
:33:50. > :33:52.in teaching how to wrench confessions under pressure,
:33:53. > :33:55.by torture, in all ways. England is the model of democracy.
:33:56. > :34:00.They give courses for their friends."
:34:01. > :34:03.The head of the Rio Truth Commission is under pressure
:34:04. > :34:09.Brazilians have long known America paid for and taught repression.
:34:10. > :34:15.It's been a revelation here that Britain was also involved.
:34:16. > :34:22.to hear that a democracy which is so important,
:34:23. > :34:30.so established, so old, collaborated with the dictatorship.
:34:31. > :34:33.We then tracked down a former leader of a police death squad.
:34:34. > :34:38.He couldn't come to Rio because of threats to his life.
:34:39. > :34:42.It's alleged that Claudio Guerra killed up to 100 people.
:34:43. > :34:47.Now he's found God and works as a Christian pastor.
:34:48. > :34:56.who were teaching interrogation techniques in Brazil.
:34:57. > :34:59.TRANSLATION: I had contacts with two,
:35:00. > :35:08.The one in Rio stayed at the Copacabana Palace.
:35:09. > :35:13.How did you know they were English agents?
:35:14. > :35:23.Because we knew the American agents from the CIA.
:35:24. > :35:26.The Americans spoke Spanish, they were all Cubans.
:35:27. > :35:35.so you could tell they were not Americans.
:35:36. > :35:39.And when they were teaching, they said the techniques
:35:40. > :35:50.were used in Ireland and had given good results.
:35:51. > :35:53.Britain's interrogation methods were widely admired.
:35:54. > :35:56.It's known from documents in the national archives in Kew
:35:57. > :36:02.that they were also exported to allies.
:36:03. > :36:05.We've discovered evidence that Brazil was one of them.
:36:06. > :36:13.to Brazil adopting acceptable standards of interrogation
:36:14. > :36:15.of the kind permitted in Northern Ireland,
:36:16. > :36:18.or the commander of the first army in Rio describing
:36:19. > :36:23.the new techniques as taking a leaf out of the British book.
:36:24. > :36:27.Then we found this 1972 letter from the British ambassador,
:36:28. > :36:33.There is a reference to the adoption by the Brazilians
:36:34. > :36:35.of more sophisticated methods of interrogation.
:36:36. > :36:38."As you know, I think they have in the past
:36:39. > :36:42.been influenced by suggestions and advice emanating from us."
:36:43. > :36:46.In the confidential letter on torture...
:36:47. > :36:50.Sir Alan Munro was a diplomat in Brazil just afterwards.
:36:51. > :36:52.We showed him the ambassador's letter.
:36:53. > :36:57.He said he personally had no knowledge of British collaboration.
:36:58. > :37:01.If the Brazilians were looking at techniques, if you like,
:37:02. > :37:04.of interrogation used by British authorities,
:37:05. > :37:12.would have been the early years of the Troubles in Northern Ireland,
:37:13. > :37:15.well, this would have been undertaken, I would say,
:37:16. > :37:19.under some Brazilian initiative of inquiry.
:37:20. > :37:22.And to the extent that it might help to reduce
:37:23. > :37:28.the most brutal methods which had, in some cases, been employed,
:37:29. > :37:36.well then, it would be a step in the right direction.
:37:37. > :37:41.the idea that Britain helped train the torturers
:37:42. > :37:43.was not a step in the right direction.
:37:44. > :37:49.colluding with the oppressive regime,
:37:50. > :37:52.a regime which still hasn't faced justice.
:37:53. > :37:56.In a written response, the Foreign Office told us that it does
:37:57. > :38:00.not comment on the work or documents of previous administrations.
:38:01. > :38:02.Reading Ariana Huffington's CV is so exhausting
:38:03. > :38:06.I had to lie down in the Newsnight office for a few minutes.
:38:07. > :38:09.Chair, president and editor-in chief of the Huff Post Media Group,
:38:10. > :38:12.author of 14 books, she serves on several boards,
:38:13. > :38:19.including that of the main Spanish daily paper and its parent company,
:38:20. > :38:24.the Committee to Protect Journalists and so it goes on.
:38:25. > :38:26.But now she's admitted she's exhausted too
:38:27. > :38:32.your success isn't dependent on money and power,
:38:33. > :38:36.which for the vast massive majority of the population it probably isn't.
:38:37. > :38:46.Arianna Huffington, at the bases of gists and quotes, you are saying
:38:47. > :38:54.there has to be a third dimension to your life, well-being and so on. --
:38:55. > :39:01.Thrive. But isn't this for the rich and powerful? No, the message of the
:39:02. > :39:05.book is for everybody, whether you are struggling to put food on the
:39:06. > :39:08.table or at the top of the pyramid facing multiple demands on your
:39:09. > :39:11.time. Because it is all about tapping into inner strength and
:39:12. > :39:16.wisdom, where resilience comes from. The more challenging your life is,
:39:17. > :39:20.the more adversities you are facing, the more important it is to
:39:21. > :39:24.be connected with that strength. We see how many people are completely
:39:25. > :39:30.destroyed by losing a job, by adversity, by struggling. Because of
:39:31. > :39:34.money. But others are able to overcome their problems and
:39:35. > :39:40.transcend them, and there have been multiples that is done, very much
:39:41. > :39:44.about inner strength and resilience. -- multiple studies.
:39:45. > :39:49.This is when you fell down and took a knock on the head. I collapsed
:39:50. > :39:55.from exhaustion, and I saw how burn-out and stress are really there
:39:56. > :39:59.around one, in the lives of millions of people. Here in the United
:40:00. > :40:04.Kingdom, we see that stress is actually the primary cause of
:40:05. > :40:07.disease. That is why now there is this mindfulness meditation
:40:08. > :40:11.movement, even the Houses of Parliament, the Bank of England, it
:40:12. > :40:15.is just amazing how people are recognising the need for something
:40:16. > :40:21.different. Let's test this, the last time I saw you, you had a blackberry
:40:22. > :40:27.in your hand and something else, how many devices? I have four devices,
:40:28. > :40:32.but I sleep eight hours at night, I have many renewal times during the
:40:33. > :40:36.day. I meditate every day, and I'm not talking about not working hard,
:40:37. > :40:41.not achieving, not going for your dreams. I am talking about recovery
:40:42. > :40:46.time, renewal time, all the things ancient philosophers talked about.
:40:47. > :40:51.You have exponential growth with health post, is its do as I say or
:40:52. > :40:59.do as I do? Do you make sure that people do not work too late? We have
:41:00. > :41:04.e-mail rules, employees know that when they are off work, they are not
:41:05. > :41:11.expected to be on e-mail. Not tweeting? When a car off work, they
:41:12. > :41:18.are off work, period. Do you tweak as much as you used to? I tweaked
:41:19. > :41:24.for me, but I don't tweet while I am off. -- tweet. That is the key to
:41:25. > :41:31.everything I am saying. This is not some flaky Californian theory. This
:41:32. > :41:36.is based on science. In the book, there are 55 pages of scientific
:41:37. > :41:40.endnotes. If you are going to have any traction, you need to have big
:41:41. > :41:44.global companies buying into this, because otherwise people will not
:41:45. > :41:50.have the confidence to behave like that. There is a global shift
:41:51. > :41:53.happening, this is happening in 11 countries, and in every country
:41:54. > :41:57.different companies are doing different things. In Germany,
:41:58. > :42:05.Volkswagen gives employees phones which turn off automatically at 6pm.
:42:06. > :42:08.You say this goes for everybody, but it is particularly directed towards
:42:09. > :42:16.women. Two women have a harder time in public life? -- do. Jill
:42:17. > :42:20.Abrahamson, the first executive editor, female executive editor of
:42:21. > :42:26.the New York Times, fired up the two years. In your view, fired for a
:42:27. > :42:29.legitimate reason? Well, we don't know the full history of what
:42:30. > :42:35.happened, but the language that was used around the ousting of Jill
:42:36. > :42:40.Abrahamson would not have been used around the ousting of a man, you
:42:41. > :42:45.know. That she was abrasive, difficult, difficult in managing a
:42:46. > :42:49.newsroom. I think the language is very difficult when it is applied to
:42:50. > :42:53.men and when it is applied to women, and that is something we need to
:42:54. > :43:00.watch. At the same time, if we want more women in successful, top jobs,
:43:01. > :43:05.we need to change the workplace. Is that actually realistic? Absolutely!
:43:06. > :43:09.The top job presumably would be president of the United States, are
:43:10. > :43:12.you telling me that if Hillary Clinton ran and won, she would
:43:13. > :43:17.behave in any different way to Bill Clinton? Well, lots of ways she
:43:18. > :43:21.might, but in terms of her administration, come on! Bill
:43:22. > :43:27.Clinton is quoted in my book saying the most important mistakes I made
:43:28. > :43:31.in life was when I was tired. He did not specify the mistakes, but if you
:43:32. > :43:37.talk to people who served in his administration, they will tell you
:43:38. > :43:41.it was chaotic. His longest serving health and human services secretary
:43:42. > :43:45.told me that she had to sleep with her briefing books, because he would
:43:46. > :43:49.be calling at one in the morning to ask questions about Medicare. That
:43:50. > :43:54.is not necessary, that is not leadership. You do not need to run a
:43:55. > :44:00.White House or any kind of government in a way that is chaotic
:44:01. > :44:04.and based on the fight or flight. It is interesting, because the opposite
:44:05. > :44:07.of that, I remember hearing from somebody you had been at a dinner
:44:08. > :44:12.with George Bush, he used to eat at six o'clock at night and retired at
:44:13. > :44:17.nine o'clock at night, not much good it did him! No, absolutely, retiring
:44:18. > :44:22.early does not mean you are wise, but no question that we need to
:44:23. > :44:26.redefine what successes, and how you tap into the wisdom that produces
:44:27. > :44:31.good decisions. Look around, an enormous amount of leaders who are
:44:32. > :44:39.very smart and not at all wise. Should Hillary Clinton run? I mean,
:44:40. > :44:43.just as another woman talking about one woman, she should run if she can
:44:44. > :44:48.do it in a way that does not involve her stressing out, as she did, and
:44:49. > :44:54.collapse from exhaustion, getting a blood clot in her brain. , I mean,
:44:55. > :44:59.it is important in a way that does not produce such incredible stress.
:45:00. > :45:05.Breakfast at 7:30 tomorrow, get to bed! The Daily Mail, this shabby
:45:06. > :45:09.whitewash, families furious as the Cabinet Secretary cooks up a deal to
:45:10. > :45:17.keep letters and calls between Blair and Bush Sigrid. Kate Middleton
:45:18. > :45:25.there, grimacing as she tastes scotch. -- secret. SNP denies
:45:26. > :45:29.cover-up of the cost of separation. World outrage grows over women
:45:30. > :45:33.condemned to hang on for falling in love. The Guardian, new doubt over
:45:34. > :45:36.Scottish wealth, but the top picture is Andy Murray serving in the French
:45:37. > :45:39.Open, he won in three straight sets. We thought,
:45:40. > :45:41.as we had Billy Bragg here, we would make him sing
:45:42. > :45:45.for his supper. We take you back in time, more
:45:46. > :45:53.than 30 years, to A New England, # I was 21 years
:45:54. > :45:56.when I wrote this song # I'm 22 two now
:45:57. > :45:59.but I won't be for long # People ask
:46:00. > :46:02.when will you grow up to be a man? # But all the girls I loved
:46:03. > :46:04.at school # I loved you then
:46:05. > :46:10.as I love you still # I don't feel bad
:46:11. > :46:17.about letting you go # I just feel sad
:46:18. > :47:03.about letting you know Not wall-to-wall sunshine, the best
:47:04. > :47:05.sun will be around the coast, Fairweather cloud building up, a few
:47:06. > :47:06.showers