:00:09. > :00:11.demands to know what exactly is going on between the Education
:00:12. > :00:17.Secretary and the Home Secretary. At the same time s had minions say that
:00:18. > :00:23.efforts to fight Muslim extremism are co-ordinated and effective. Now
:00:24. > :00:27.Newsnight has been told how when the Home Office cut funding for an
:00:28. > :00:33.anti-extremist organisation, Michael Gove's department stepped in to help
:00:34. > :00:37.the organisation out. Some senior civil servants at the Home Office
:00:38. > :00:41.says the Department for Education has been running what they call a
:00:42. > :00:46.parallel security policy. The chairman of that group is here. The
:00:47. > :00:57.Taliban's media studies department turns a prisoner trade into a
:00:58. > :01:05.marketing opportunity. And Kevin spacey considers his future. I'm
:01:06. > :01:08.never going to leave, I not get on plane and BEEP off, I will always be
:01:09. > :01:12.part of the country. The photographer who caught this moment
:01:13. > :01:22.tells us the story behind the picture.
:01:23. > :01:25.There is no, repeat, no feud at the top of the Government. The chairman
:01:26. > :01:29.of the Conservative Party tells us so, as does the Downing Street
:01:30. > :01:34.propaganda machine. So the testy exchanges between the Home Secretary
:01:35. > :01:39.and the Education Secretary, about Muslim extremism, signify nothing
:01:40. > :01:43.beyond a difference of emphasis? Michael Gove thinks Theresa May is
:01:44. > :01:49.an excellent Home Secretary, it must be true, an unnamed person close to
:01:50. > :01:53.him said it! But beneath all this froth is a very serious issue.
:01:54. > :01:58.Before we talk about it we have this report. My Lords and members of the
:01:59. > :02:05.House of Commons. This was supposed to be the story of the day. The
:02:06. > :02:11.Queen's Speech. But instead, the main political event is centered on
:02:12. > :02:15.schools in a mainly Pakistani neighbourhood in Birmingham. That is
:02:16. > :02:18.because Theresa May, the Home Secretary, last night sent a rather
:02:19. > :02:23.aggressive letter to the Department for Education about radicalism and
:02:24. > :02:27.extremism in schools. And, in doing so, she turned some local
:02:28. > :02:32.difficulties in Birmingham into a national problem for Michael Gove,
:02:33. > :02:39.the Education Secretary. And his outriders, in turn, have thrown some
:02:40. > :02:44.barbes at Miss May. This is also a skirmish in a long turf war on
:02:45. > :02:50.terror policy. Newsnight can exclusively reveal one key chapter
:02:51. > :02:55.in that story. In 2011 the Quilliam Foundation, a counter extremism
:02:56. > :02:59.think-tank close to Mr Gove, appealed to the Home Office for
:03:00. > :03:04.?150,000, saying it needed it to stay hope, the Home Office refused.
:03:05. > :03:09.The principle we want to uphold is Quilliam should be free to
:03:10. > :03:13.contribute to the wider debate, but not depend on Government fund to go
:03:14. > :03:18.do so. Some Government officials feel the tough decision was
:03:19. > :03:22.undermined a few weeks later when the Department for Education decided
:03:23. > :03:25.to give the think-tank ?150,000. Some senior officials at the Home
:03:26. > :03:29.Office said the Department for Education has been running what they
:03:30. > :03:34.call a "parallel security policy". The fact the fight has been going on
:03:35. > :03:39.for so long explains the vitriol on display this week. Next week Ofsted,
:03:40. > :03:44.the education inspectorate is expected to put five Birmingham
:03:45. > :03:47.schools into special measure, the culmination of a wave of inspections
:03:48. > :03:51.across the city, Folauing on from the publication of the so called
:03:52. > :03:56.Trojan horse documents. A letter, now proved to be a forgery, setting
:03:57. > :04:01.out details of a plot by Muslim hardliners to take over schools all
:04:02. > :04:06.across the city. Fears of a broader conspiracy have dissolved. But Miss
:04:07. > :04:11.May has turned the heat up Mr Michael Gove, in her letter,
:04:12. > :04:19.referring to concerns about extremism she wrote:
:04:20. > :04:25.Is that critque fair. Much will concern this school Park View. It
:04:26. > :04:31.was blocked from opening a free school by the Department for
:04:32. > :04:35.Education on security grounds. But it wasn't intervened on, nor was it
:04:36. > :04:39.stopped taking over another two state schools. Still we do not know
:04:40. > :04:45.precisely what intelligence officials actually had. Michael Gove
:04:46. > :04:49.is a pretty unlikely person to be accused of being soft on extremism.
:04:50. > :04:53.Over the past few years he and Miss May have been locked in an argument
:04:54. > :04:58.about this issue, and it is him who is usually cast as the hardliner. In
:04:59. > :05:05.fact in 2006 he wrote a book about this issue, in a chapter headed "the
:05:06. > :05:09.Trojan horse", he wrote "in the struggle against extremism, the
:05:10. > :05:12.British state has not only dealt effectively with those openly
:05:13. > :05:22.committed to Jihad, it has also failed to tackle the underlying
:05:23. > :05:26.idealistic currents that favour extremism". Youngsters can be
:05:27. > :05:31.brainwashed at a young age and be taught to dislike and dehumanise
:05:32. > :05:35.others. This may not teach somebody to become a terrorist or Jihadi, but
:05:36. > :05:40.from there to going and committing a terrorist act is a very, very short
:05:41. > :05:44.step. It has the potential to drive somebody towards an action in a much
:05:45. > :05:53.more efficient manner for the recruiters. Miss May and her allies
:05:54. > :05:56.want the focus to be on more explicitly violent extremism. One of
:05:57. > :06:02.the things Michael Gove apparently said is we shouldn't be fighting the
:06:03. > :06:06.crocodiles on the edge of the swamp but drain the swamp. That is a very
:06:07. > :06:10.black and white approach, and you may find there are a whole bunch of
:06:11. > :06:14.animals in the swamp you are forcing to choose to be for origins you. If
:06:15. > :06:17.you force them into that position you may be uncomfortable with the
:06:18. > :06:21.numbers lining up on the opposite side. Then you have made your
:06:22. > :06:25.position worse not better. The Prime Minister is now intervening in this
:06:26. > :06:29.extraordinary spat. But not before one important piece of damage has
:06:30. > :06:33.been done to the Tories. Miss May has given Labour a hand. Her letter
:06:34. > :06:37.says that the allegations relating to schools in Birmingham raise
:06:38. > :06:42.serious questions about the quality of school governance and oversight.
:06:43. > :06:45.That is rather help offul to the opposition which claims that the
:06:46. > :06:53.coalition has weakened school supervision. Playground tiffes can
:06:54. > :06:57.do some real damage to political parties.
:06:58. > :07:00.We have the chairman of the Quilliam Foundation, and a Lib Dem
:07:01. > :07:04.parliamentary candidate. With us too is the founder and chairman of
:07:05. > :07:10.trustees of a private Muslim school in Leicester. Is it possible
:07:11. > :07:14.gentleman to define what extremism is? I think essentially generally it
:07:15. > :07:18.is the desire to impose one's opinion on anyone else. Within the
:07:19. > :07:23.Muslim context we have to accept there is such a thing as extremism,
:07:24. > :07:29.we are calling it Islamism, and that can be defined as the desire to
:07:30. > :07:33.impose interpretation of Islam over society by law. How does it manifest
:07:34. > :07:38.itself? The desire to impose Islam over society by law according to
:07:39. > :07:44.one's interpretation can impose itself in cases like Sudan this
:07:45. > :07:48.month, where a lady was sentence for blasphemy. In this country?
:07:49. > :07:52.Segregation, in public institutions, Sharia patrols walking around in
:07:53. > :07:58.what they have labelled "Muslim areas", it can define itself in all
:07:59. > :08:02.sorts of honour killings and FGM. People interpreting the religion, no
:08:03. > :08:05.sir the religion itself, it is extreme interpretation of the
:08:06. > :08:10.religion. Would you accept that interpretation of extremism? It is
:08:11. > :08:13.important fact you mentioned. The definition has never been said by
:08:14. > :08:16.the Government and it is very flexible. That causes problems by
:08:17. > :08:21.schools, on the one hand we are told to fight and prevent extremism, but
:08:22. > :08:25.we are not told what it is. I think you would find that most Muslims
:08:26. > :08:28.within the community are anti-extremist as well. They don't
:08:29. > :08:32.see what they do as being extremism? Do you think the Government is
:08:33. > :08:40.getting it wrong? I think they are using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
:08:41. > :08:44.This reaction and response to what is an anonymous letter and denounced
:08:45. > :08:48.as a fake by most people. To come in like this with anti-Tory and counter
:08:49. > :08:52.terrorism. Everything that the Muslims are doing these days,
:08:53. > :08:56.including education, is seen through the lens of antiterrorism and
:08:57. > :09:00.security. We have to accept in our communities there is a challenge
:09:01. > :09:04.that we face that, yes, the vast majority of Muslims aren't violent,
:09:05. > :09:08.but we do have to deal with that vocal minority who have come to
:09:09. > :09:14.dominate the discourse of our communities, who promote, for
:09:15. > :09:19.example, in an ideal state they want homosexuals to be killed, they
:09:20. > :09:22.promote adulters to be stoned to death and call for the amputation of
:09:23. > :09:25.the hand of the thief. And they believe in these things in principle
:09:26. > :09:29.and are calling them. They build the mood music to which suicide bombers
:09:30. > :09:33.dance. There is a reason why we currently have about 400 British
:09:34. > :09:37.born and raised citizens fighting for groups far more extreme than
:09:38. > :09:40.Al-Qaeda in Syria. It is not an easy thing to leave your country. That is
:09:41. > :09:43.another thing, the British Government nearly went to fight in
:09:44. > :09:49.Syria, but the point is none of this... But they didn't join a group
:09:50. > :09:53.more extreme than Al-Qaeda, they are beheading people. None of this is
:09:54. > :09:56.taught in schools. I'm confident that none of this is taught in
:09:57. > :09:59.schools. It comes from wider community, it comes from other
:10:00. > :10:07.influences, but in schools I have yet to meet, in 30 years of working
:10:08. > :10:11.in education in Muslim schools and with majority museum schools. Would
:10:12. > :10:15.you like to live in a Sharia state? It depends where it is. You wouldn't
:10:16. > :10:19.like this country to become a Sharia state? I don't think it would. Would
:10:20. > :10:26.you like it to be? Obviously I would like to live under Sharia. In that
:10:27. > :10:31.you would condone stoning of adulteresses? Not really, it is a
:10:32. > :10:37.far bigger issue than that. You can't pick and choose bits and bobs
:10:38. > :10:44.of the Sharia, it is a broad issue, the social strata and circumstances
:10:45. > :10:49.have to be in place. What is the Sharia model for stoning to death.
:10:50. > :10:53.If the stoning conditions were met is that something in principle we
:10:54. > :10:57.should condone. It is not being taught in schools. Have you evidence
:10:58. > :11:01.it is taught in schools? I have been personally called by teachers. We
:11:02. > :11:05.have to wait until the Ofsted report comes out. The allegations are
:11:06. > :11:08.allegations. Is there any evidence this is being taught in schools?
:11:09. > :11:12.Evidence from the teachers who have called Quilliam directly. I don't
:11:13. > :11:17.want to conclude from that evidence, evidence doesn't mean conclusions it
:11:18. > :11:21.is evidence. We are not talking specific schools? Let's wait for the
:11:22. > :11:25.Ofsted report, we have to recognise that extremism among Muslims and the
:11:26. > :11:29.far right is a challenge, they feed into each other, it is a challenge
:11:30. > :11:33.we have to confront. If we can't sit on Newsnight and openly say in
:11:34. > :11:37.principle we don't condone the chopping of hands and stoning of at
:11:38. > :11:41.dolters, if Sharia conditions are met anywhere in the world we have a
:11:42. > :11:47.problem, I wouldn't condone that in principle. But you do condemn the
:11:48. > :11:51.amputation of hands? If it is not according to a due process of law,
:11:52. > :11:55.in any situation, in way. If it is by due processes it is OK to stone
:11:56. > :11:59.people to death? These things are not taught in schools. I have worked
:12:00. > :12:03.in schools. If by due process is it OK to stone people to death by due
:12:04. > :12:06.process. This is not taught in schools, that is what we are here to
:12:07. > :12:10.discuss. You say you have evidence that some extreme views are being
:12:11. > :12:15.taught. That is not a conclusion. I understand that. Is there any
:12:16. > :12:21.evidence that promoting extreme views in schools actually leads to
:12:22. > :12:25.extreme action later of the kind you have already alluded to once? We
:12:26. > :12:30.have got to treat this debate like racism, it is a no brainer if racism
:12:31. > :12:35.spreads in society violent racism can merge east merge from it. We can
:12:36. > :12:39.try to test it scientifically, but most people accept racism spreading
:12:40. > :12:47.in society, even not to violence is bad thing. Likewise with homophobia,
:12:48. > :12:51.if extremist racism and homophobia in a museum context, if these ideas
:12:52. > :12:55.spread through society like stoning people to death. It can't help
:12:56. > :12:58.social cohesion. That is fair point? We are looking at in schools this
:12:59. > :13:02.doesn't happen. This comes from the Internet and all sorts of things.
:13:03. > :13:06.You heard him say that he has had letters from teachers, the
:13:07. > :13:10.Government is worried enough to be mounting investigations? We were
:13:11. > :13:15.talking just earlier about disgruntled people, people who lose
:13:16. > :13:21.their jobs for some sort of reason they can bring vexation and
:13:22. > :13:24.complaints against schools. Schools are there to educate the children to
:13:25. > :13:29.get good exam results, the schools in Birmingham. You can't vouch for
:13:30. > :13:34.every school in the country more than anyone else can? The schools in
:13:35. > :13:37.Birmingham, the focus of the investigation have gone to
:13:38. > :13:42.outstanding and have got outstanding exam results. I have a son who is
:13:43. > :13:47.13. Let me talk, you have had your chance. I'm pleading you for the
:13:48. > :13:51.sake of my son who is 13, in a museum-only son, I have no choice
:13:52. > :13:55.over because I don't live with him. If his teacher is unable to condemn
:13:56. > :14:00.stoning in principle or chopping off the hand, I worry about the future
:14:01. > :14:04.for my son. You are right to worry. Come out and talk about liberal
:14:05. > :14:06.values. You are right to worry, these things have no place in
:14:07. > :14:11.school, because children don't understand these things. You know as
:14:12. > :14:16.well as I do that it is a very, very complex issue, it is not black and
:14:17. > :14:19.white. That is where Crispin Blunt mentioned this morning when things
:14:20. > :14:22.are put in black and white situations those in the grey area
:14:23. > :14:25.could be pushed towards the black area and the dark arts, we have to
:14:26. > :14:32.be very airflow about that. Thank you very much. The Yeoman of the
:14:33. > :14:36.guard, military bands, a guilded coach, it was the State Opening of
:14:37. > :14:41.Parliament again this morning. In her invisible gilded shackles the
:14:42. > :14:45.Queen recited how the coalition Government keeps itself occupied
:14:46. > :14:49.until we get the chance to decide if we are sick of the sight of them.
:14:50. > :15:06.Here are the highlights. All of them! My Lords, pray be seated.
:15:07. > :15:09.Coalition's last stand! My Government's legislative programme
:15:10. > :15:17.will continue to deliver on its long-term plan to build a stronger
:15:18. > :15:21.economy and a fairer society. So, fair to say it wasn't one of the
:15:22. > :15:26.most exciting Queen's Speeches of all time. We're here to explain. I
:15:27. > :15:29.think probably the most unexpected thing that happened was one of the
:15:30. > :15:33.page boys to the Queen, who was eight years old fainted as she went
:15:34. > :15:37.on and on and on. That is not to say it was empty, as some of its
:15:38. > :15:40.crickets would have it. There were pretty decent proposals on pension,
:15:41. > :15:44.things about childcare that the Government has talked about already,
:15:45. > :15:47.privately Government sources admit there was nothing new in this. That
:15:48. > :15:54.has given them and us a problem today. Because the debate ended up
:15:55. > :15:57.the warm-up which we are well into, the general election. The Tories
:15:58. > :16:01.saying you can't trust Labour with the economy, and the Labour Party
:16:02. > :16:06.saying the Tories don't care about ordinary families and the Lib Dems
:16:07. > :16:08.grinning and bearing it. The next Queen's Speech is after the
:16:09. > :16:12.election? That may be the more important one. We don't know what
:16:13. > :16:15.that will be. We do know it is likely to be a coalition Government,
:16:16. > :16:19.if you believe some of the polls. And what we have discovered is
:16:20. > :16:24.actually some very senior people in the Lib Dem party and in the Labour
:16:25. > :16:27.Party have already been having some cosy tete-a-tetes, including
:16:28. > :16:30.discussing some of their shared concerns, particularly on Europe.
:16:31. > :16:36.Now there was a dinner that we found out about in April, with four
:16:37. > :16:40.members of the Clegg and Miliband inner circle, including Nick Clegg's
:16:41. > :16:46.Chief of Staff and Lord Adonis from Labour, one of the people who led
:16:47. > :16:50.the failed attempt to have a Labour-Lib Dem coalition in 2010.
:16:51. > :16:54.They say, members of the group say it was an informal catch-up between
:16:55. > :16:57.old friends. They it was an informal catch-up between
:16:58. > :16:59.discussed Europe as a shared issue, I understand they did absolutely
:17:00. > :17:03.discuss a wider range of issues. I understand they did absolutely
:17:04. > :17:06.really interestingly, when I have been talking to people about this, a
:17:07. > :17:11.very senior Labour source said to me there are all sorts of contacts
:17:12. > :17:17.going on all the time. Some of them through vain, Vince Cable, and also
:17:18. > :17:21.conversations going on between Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg himself. Up
:17:22. > :17:26.until now those two parties have tried very hard to keep these kinds
:17:27. > :17:28.of contacts under wraps, as we hurtle towards the general election,
:17:29. > :17:33.on both sides that will become harder and harder. In the meantime
:17:34. > :17:36.this spat at the top of the Tory Party between Theresa May and
:17:37. > :17:40.Michael Gove, what's happening on that? There is a very serious issue
:17:41. > :17:43.of substance, there is an awful lot of politicking going on here too, it
:17:44. > :17:48.is getting very bitter. David Cameron has summoned the facts in
:17:49. > :17:51.this, trying to crack heads together, in terms of who said what
:17:52. > :17:56.to who when and who is the one who has been stirring the pot, it has
:17:57. > :17:59.become a very bitter row between Theresa May and Michael Gove, who
:18:00. > :18:05.frankly have never got on with each other at all. But the context that
:18:06. > :18:09.we had to see this in is whether or not it sound fair the politics are
:18:10. > :18:12.also, just a couple of weeks ago Theresa May gave a speech that was
:18:13. > :18:19.lauded by people right across the Tory Party. Her potential chances of
:18:20. > :18:22.becoming a lead, should David Cameron exit after the general
:18:23. > :18:25.election have gone up in the last couple of weeks. That is part of
:18:26. > :18:29.what is at play here. She feels strong enough to take the
:18:30. > :18:35.extraordinary step of releasing a letter to the public, containing
:18:36. > :18:37.very damaging criticisms about a rival's department. This isn't
:18:38. > :18:41.something that happened in private. This letter was put into the public
:18:42. > :18:45.domain, which shows you really that she's willing to give a pretty
:18:46. > :18:49.public dressing down to one of her colleagues. David Cameron is not
:18:50. > :18:52.amused. This is what's on the front pages of the papers tomorrow. Not
:18:53. > :18:56.those proposals in the Queen's Speech, although there are the odd
:18:57. > :19:02.couple of photographs of the little page boy who fainted after what he
:19:03. > :19:05.heard the Queen say. Poor kid. Good outfit though! Whoever has the
:19:06. > :19:09.public relations account for the Taliban played a bit of a blinder
:19:10. > :19:12.today, after getting the United States to bane done its trumpeted
:19:13. > :19:17.refusal to negotiate with terrorists, then to get five of its
:19:18. > :19:21.most senior figures released in exchange for one American soldier,
:19:22. > :19:26.it is now released its own video of how the handover happened. In the
:19:27. > :19:30.United States, while there is continuing joy at the family
:19:31. > :19:37.reunification, there is unease about what's happened, and it seems to be
:19:38. > :19:42.growing. On Saturday, somewhere in host province in Afghanistan and
:19:43. > :19:45.overseen by a dozen Taliban affiliated soldiers, Sergeant
:19:46. > :19:50.Bergdahl's five-year captivity came to an end. While being handed over,
:19:51. > :19:55.a Taliban commander can be heard telling the American soldiers not to
:19:56. > :20:00.return to Afghanistan. Warning that if they do, they will be killed.
:20:01. > :20:05.They boast that the Americans were too frightened to remain, and they
:20:06. > :20:10.talked during the handover. President Obama has been sorely
:20:11. > :20:14.criticised for the terms of the handover by Republicans in
:20:15. > :20:20.Washington. Does putting these Taliban fighters back into the
:20:21. > :20:24.fight, endanger the west's security? Even Hillary Clinton, the former
:20:25. > :20:31.Secretary of State, has refused to say that she would have made the
:20:32. > :20:35.same deal. In trading one slowly Sergeant for five senior commanders
:20:36. > :20:41.the Taliban clearly feel they have scored a victory. One American is
:20:42. > :20:50.now free, but could some future President rue the day this deal was
:20:51. > :20:55.done. The author and journalist Charles Glass was himself held
:20:56. > :21:00.hostage by Islamic militants in the 1980s in Lebanon. And the Lieutenant
:21:01. > :21:04.was a counter intelligence officer for 30 years and served in
:21:05. > :21:08.Afghanistan in our Washington studio. What do you make of the
:21:09. > :21:12.Taliban video? It is clearly in their interests to put as good a
:21:13. > :21:16.spin for their side as they can. It was interesting though that they
:21:17. > :21:21.said to him, don't come back, or you will be killed. When the spin from
:21:22. > :21:26.Washington was that he had gone over to them and had Stockholm syndrome
:21:27. > :21:30.and was taking their side. If they were going to kill him it doesn't
:21:31. > :21:37.seem as if that was the case. What did you make of it? I think the
:21:38. > :21:41.Taliban today is not the Taliban that was there in 2001 when we
:21:42. > :21:45.invaded. They are a sophisticated organisation that understands social
:21:46. > :21:50.media and manipulating messages. There is an American reporter from
:21:51. > :21:54.major network that said publicly on national American TV that the
:21:55. > :21:57.Taliban is more co-operative than the White House. This was from a
:21:58. > :22:02.friendly network to the President. The Taliban is trying to get the
:22:03. > :22:06.most out of this event, they are, and as you in your introduction you
:22:07. > :22:10.are talking about the fact they are getting back five very senior
:22:11. > :22:16.commanders, for one individual who essentially left our side under
:22:17. > :22:20.question questionable circumstances. The Taliban is reaping the benefit
:22:21. > :22:27.of how they played this. Do you read it as a Taliban gain? It is a gain
:22:28. > :22:31.for Bowe Bergdahl, he gets to go free, as a former hostage there is
:22:32. > :22:35.nothing better than those first steps of freedom. The second,
:22:36. > :22:39.President Obama initially had a bit of a propaganda victory having done
:22:40. > :22:44.the trade-off saying he wouldn't leave anyone behind. That seems to
:22:45. > :22:47.have back fired on him because of the approbium attached to the
:22:48. > :22:52.exchange and he didn't inform Congress about it. The Republicans
:22:53. > :22:55.criticising him most severely knows that the Regan administration did
:22:56. > :23:00.the same with the hostages in Lebanon. The Iran scandal was all
:23:01. > :23:04.about selling Iran weapons, giving Iran weapons in exchange for
:23:05. > :23:13.hostages in Lebanon against American rule. Do you have Anwar site that
:23:14. > :23:21.this -- an Anxiety this will come back and haunt American Presidents,
:23:22. > :23:24.Lieutenant? I'm Tony too, sorry. The issue here for the American
:23:25. > :23:30.Presidents in the future, they have to consider how that plays out. The
:23:31. > :23:34.Iran issue was about material not individuals. In this case based on
:23:35. > :23:38.my own direct knowledge there were other options on the table. Not only
:23:39. > :23:43.military option that is related to finding a way to leverage other
:23:44. > :23:48.folks to get Bergdahl back. He was held by the network in Pakistan.
:23:49. > :23:52.That is very critical to the ecautious which has -- equation,
:23:53. > :23:57.which hasn't been fully explored by anyone in that point in time. Go on
:23:58. > :24:04.about the principle, the principle of doing deals with terrorists and
:24:05. > :24:08.swapping prisoners? In the case of the Taliban there is a real issue by
:24:09. > :24:13.these individuals, let's remember in Afghanistan there has always been a
:24:14. > :24:16.retrenchment and allowing the Taliban to be reintegrated into
:24:17. > :24:20.society. We have been allowing them to go back into society. With that
:24:21. > :24:26.said it is these five individuals who were captured under the original
:24:27. > :24:32.authorisation to military force, and these five individuals had direct
:24:33. > :24:36.links to the Al-Qaeda folks who conducted the 9/11 attacks. That is
:24:37. > :24:39.what the problem is with members of Congress and staff. I was over on
:24:40. > :24:43.the hill talking to them yesterday and today, there are real issues
:24:44. > :24:46.regarding these five more than other elements of the Taliban already
:24:47. > :24:53.released. Do you think then there was a miscalculation of what the
:24:54. > :24:59.effect of the exchange would be? Absolutely. I have been monitoring
:25:00. > :25:04.this from day one, literally, and the issue regarding Bergdahl is
:25:05. > :25:07.becoming clear, that he was not a pristine individual, there are
:25:08. > :25:10.issues about how he left his post. That has become a very hard pill for
:25:11. > :25:14.the American public and military to swallow. On top of that the
:25:15. > :25:17.violation of law. All the lawyers I spoke to said there was a clear
:25:18. > :25:20.violation by the President to allow the Taliban to go without
:25:21. > :25:28.consultations to Congress, and most importantly, when you look at the
:25:29. > :25:34.overall President press sent set by the President, will -- precedent set
:25:35. > :25:38.about gaining leverage with hostages. What do you think the
:25:39. > :25:43.legacy of the transaction will be? If the United States leaves
:25:44. > :25:47.Afghanistan then its soldiers won't be vulnerable to being captured by
:25:48. > :25:50.the Taliban or anyone else, perhaps in future wars,
:25:51. > :25:54.the Taliban or anyone else, perhaps war are always taken by both sides
:25:55. > :25:57.in war. It is nothing new, and prisoner exchanges are nothing new.
:25:58. > :26:02.This is something that is occurring just before the withdrawal of combat
:26:03. > :26:06.troops from Afghanistan, and in that context it looks different, doesn't
:26:07. > :26:09.it? Not if you think of Vietnam. Remember the first thing that
:26:10. > :26:16.happened as American troops pulled out, was the American prisoners came
:26:17. > :26:20.back too. That was a defeat? At that time it wasn't being sold as a
:26:21. > :26:28.defeat. And this time it isn't sold as a defeat either. In both cases it
:26:29. > :26:33.probably is a defeat. Time to hear from Kevin Spacey, not only is he
:26:34. > :26:38.one of the most famous actors in the world, but almost at the end of the
:26:39. > :26:46.time as Artistic Director at the Old Vic. In the House of Cards he place
:26:47. > :26:51.a snake making his way in American politics, is nothing like his real
:26:52. > :26:55.incarnation, as some sort of demigod, but also an actor revered
:26:56. > :27:02.for his devotion to British drama. We met him earlier today, be warned
:27:03. > :27:07.he likes the odd Anglo-Saxonism. Here is the head of that ignoble
:27:08. > :27:15.traitor, the dangerous and unsuspected Hastings. It is not
:27:16. > :27:22.every day Newsnight is in the presence of Hollywood royalty. So
:27:23. > :27:26.dear I loved the man (laughter) It is the Queen's Speech this morning.
:27:27. > :27:36.It was all a bit of a nightmare getting here. But we're here. Kevin
:27:37. > :27:40.Spacey has a film to promote, a behind the scenes documentary of
:27:41. > :27:46.taking his production of Richard II I around the world. What do you
:27:47. > :27:50.think the state of British theatre is now? There is lots of places
:27:51. > :27:55.where there is tremendous growth, really interesting ideas, really,
:27:56. > :27:59.you know, even if shows don't work the ideas behind shows, why people
:28:00. > :28:05.are trying to work on certain issues and tackle certain kinds of theatre
:28:06. > :28:08.is very exciting. I think it is in an incredibly healthy place. It is
:28:09. > :28:12.exciting to be a part of it. Will you be sad to leave? I'm never going
:28:13. > :28:16.to leave, it is not like I'm going to get on a plane and lock off. I
:28:17. > :28:20.will always be a part of this country and always have a place in
:28:21. > :28:28.London, and it is a huge part of my life. Back in the 90s when he won an
:28:29. > :28:31.Oscar for American Beauty, you might have thought Spacey would have opted
:28:32. > :28:36.for Hollywood more than anything else. It is the oddest thing, I feel
:28:37. > :28:41.like I'm in a coma for 20 years and just now waking up. Instead he chose
:28:42. > :28:45.a ten-year stint running London's Old Vic theatre. I was at a point in
:28:46. > :28:49.my life where I didn't want to pursue the same dream, and everyone
:28:50. > :28:53.wanted me to pursue the same dream because that is what people are
:28:54. > :28:59.supposed to do. I was like I did it, I had this unbelievable run of
:29:00. > :29:02.making movies and films that I'm unbelievably grateful. Some will
:29:03. > :29:06.stand the test of time, and others will thankfully be forgotten. My job
:29:07. > :29:12.is to clear the pipes and keep the sludge moving. Now he's better known
:29:13. > :29:17.on the small green for the American political -- screen for the American
:29:18. > :29:22.political drama House of Cards, a stand-out on Netflix. Why do you
:29:23. > :29:27.think the best writing at the moment is on TV? Because movies stopped
:29:28. > :29:35.making drama. What do you mean? The ground dried up. Somewhere at the
:29:36. > :29:40.end, right into the 2000, the motion picture studios for the most part
:29:41. > :29:47.started to focus on comic book characters, and that is what they
:29:48. > :29:51.are driven by. And real, incredible, brilliantly written, directed, acted
:29:52. > :29:55.character drama moved to a very fertile ground which, is television.
:29:56. > :29:59.Because creative people will go where they can work. And where they
:30:00. > :30:05.can create. It hasn't surprised me at all. With a third series in the
:30:06. > :30:13.pipeline, the work on House of Cards, where Spacey's Democrat,
:30:14. > :30:21.constantly moves for power in Washington, while teasing the
:30:22. > :30:29.audience. I pity him. If the West Wing is an idealised look at
:30:30. > :30:33.politicians and House of Cards is the other side, which is closer to
:30:34. > :30:38.the truth? We are closer to the truth. I make a joke now and make it
:30:39. > :30:45.sound like President Clinton said it and he didn't, but I like pretending
:30:46. > :30:52.he did. What do they do on the House of Cardses, 99% is true, and the 1%
:30:53. > :30:58.wrong is you could never get an education bill get passed that fast.
:30:59. > :31:02.Some have said it is cynical a other politicians have said it is closer
:31:03. > :31:06.than you would like to imagine. Does that depress you? Yes. It doesn't
:31:07. > :31:10.depress me because you know in the sense that wow that is shocking
:31:11. > :31:13.news, it depresses me because it makes me think that people don't
:31:14. > :31:18.want to go into public service because what is the point. And
:31:19. > :31:22.public service is an unbelievably important thing. People say to me
:31:23. > :31:31.would you run for politics and office, I'm like, are you kidding
:31:32. > :31:35.mement I like to get things done. Despite the programme's cynicism
:31:36. > :31:45.about the political cynicism, we know President Obama likes it. I
:31:46. > :31:51.wish things were that ruthless! Has Obama disappointed you? No. I think
:31:52. > :31:57.it is incredibly difficult to get anything done when people who are
:31:58. > :32:00.basically in control of the house of representatives have made a
:32:01. > :32:04.declaration that they will stop everything you wanted to try to
:32:05. > :32:08.achieve. You know you can only play ball if everyone is playing
:32:09. > :32:13.together. It doesn't surprise me. Do you think Frank Underwood have any
:32:14. > :32:17.advice for him? He would kill a lot of them! When you finish at the Old
:32:18. > :32:21.Vic, what else, back to shoe salesman, stand-up? I don't know
:32:22. > :32:25.what's next, that is one of the most exciting things. Obviously I'm
:32:26. > :32:30.enjoying House of Cards and that may continue beyond a third season. I
:32:31. > :32:36.don't know. That is actually thrilling not knowing. It is
:32:37. > :32:40.thrilling. Don't know yet. Now the 25th anniversary of the most
:32:41. > :32:43.notorious demonstration of the brutality of the Chinese state
:32:44. > :32:49.passed today in Beijing with hardly a mum merit. That was because the --
:32:50. > :32:58.mummur, that is because the police and associated thugs saw to it there
:32:59. > :33:01.was no more than a mummur. Thousands of pro-democracy were demonstrators
:33:02. > :33:09.were killed and the Government maintain it was no more than a few
:33:10. > :33:16.hundred. One photo remains the great image of the uprising. Tank Man
:33:17. > :33:21.depicts a man holding his shopping bags confronting an immpossibly
:33:22. > :33:29.menacing row of armoured vehicles. The photographer was Jeff Widener.
:33:30. > :33:34.This is his story. I got there a week before the crackdown, and it
:33:35. > :33:37.was a very lively event, almost a carnival atmosphere. You had
:33:38. > :33:42.children dancing and people were singing. Even policemen were singing
:33:43. > :33:46.together with the protestors. It was well organised and I think everybody
:33:47. > :33:51.knew this couldn't keep going on forever. I didn't think it was going
:33:52. > :33:54.on forever. We were all sort of wondering what the Chinese
:33:55. > :33:58.Government was going to do to the protesters. One picture that I
:33:59. > :34:03.photographed of a woman being caught in the middle of many soldiers near
:34:04. > :34:12.the Great Hall of the People in my mind is where it started. The
:34:13. > :34:16.evening of June #rd was the time when things started heating up and
:34:17. > :34:20.so all the protesters started bringing steel barricades and
:34:21. > :34:24.putting them in the middle of the street to block the advances of the
:34:25. > :34:28.soldiers who might come that night. I was talking to my reporter and
:34:29. > :34:32.then we heard this noise of metal crashing on the ground. And we're
:34:33. > :34:37.all thinking what's going on. What's happening. Then this armoured
:34:38. > :34:42.personnel carrier comes around the corner so fast there is sparks
:34:43. > :34:45.coming off the threads, everyone is running and screaming and I jumped
:34:46. > :34:50.into the ivy, I had to pull myself up and go running after this
:34:51. > :34:55.armoured car and I wanted to run in the opposite directionment when I
:34:56. > :35:03.got there my battery power and my flash was almost zero, I could take
:35:04. > :35:07.one picture every 60 seconds. So imagine on one of the largest
:35:08. > :35:10.stories in the 20th century and you can only take one picture every
:35:11. > :35:17.minute and all hell is breaking loose. One man was on the ground on
:35:18. > :35:22.fire, rolling around, another man was helping him, and I'm going come
:35:23. > :35:26.on, come on, come on, and the flash would not recycle, and I'm waiting
:35:27. > :35:32.what seemed to be an eternity, I lifted it to my eye and the minute I
:35:33. > :35:36.lifted it me-to-my eye, I look down and blood is all over me I had a
:35:37. > :35:41.massive concussion from a brick, from a protestor. I looked at the
:35:42. > :35:46.back of the armoured car on fire and this is now getting very close to
:35:47. > :35:49.midnight, and then out came a soldier to surrender, he has his
:35:50. > :35:53.hands up in the air and I still remember that pristine look of his
:35:54. > :35:56.uniform, how pressed it was, as clear as day in my mind, I
:35:57. > :36:00.remembered so clearly, and the mob looked at him for a second, and then
:36:01. > :36:05.they slowly moved in and they had pipes and weapons of all kind, and
:36:06. > :36:10.they started beating on him. And I looked at that and I couldn't take a
:36:11. > :36:14.picture. And I thought to myself, I'm going to lose the Pulitzer
:36:15. > :36:27.Prize, and then I thought I should be ashamed for thinking something
:36:28. > :36:31.like that because he's about to die. I was not staying Tebay engining
:36:32. > :36:36.Hotel, but the Beijing Hotel was the location closest to the Tiananmen
:36:37. > :36:40.Square. This is where journalists were going to try to get some kind
:36:41. > :36:45.of an idea about what was going on. And everybody was scared. I have
:36:46. > :36:49.never been so scared of all the assignments I have never been so
:36:50. > :36:54.scared as this story. Fortunately I managed to get to the Beijing hotel.
:36:55. > :36:59.And we made it to the roof. I went out to the balcony, and I kept
:37:00. > :37:03.looking at the bullet hole over my head. There was one bullet hole it
:37:04. > :37:08.kept reminding me I could easily get picked off by a sniper, it was very
:37:09. > :37:12.unsettling to be leaning over a balcony and trying to shoot over a
:37:13. > :37:18.wall. The man walks out in the middle of the street with his
:37:19. > :37:23.shopping bag and I told Kirk he's screwing up my composition, and he's
:37:24. > :37:26.saying they will shoot him. I'm focussing for the man to be shot,
:37:27. > :37:30.I'm waiting and waiting, I know it is going to happen, I'm waiting and
:37:31. > :37:37.focussing and nothing happens. And then I'm thinking this picture is
:37:38. > :37:41.too far away, it is too far away, I'm looking at the bed and thinking
:37:42. > :37:56.do I take a gamble and get the teleconverter. I gamble and I put it
:37:57. > :37:59.on the lens I go 1-2-3 (click) I wonder what happened to him like
:38:00. > :38:03.anyone, the big question is, it is shocking after a quarter of a
:38:04. > :38:07.century, not only do we not know where he is or his relative, you
:38:08. > :38:09.would think a relative would come forward and what happened to the
:38:10. > :38:13.tank crew, what happened to the driver, what happened to the crew,
:38:14. > :38:17.they disappeared off the face of the planet. Those guys have lives. They
:38:18. > :38:21.have got families, where are they? Where is everybody? It is like the
:38:22. > :38:29.twilight zone, they just disappeared. Speaking to us from
:38:30. > :38:32.Taiwan is the Tiananmen Square protest leader. With me here in the
:38:33. > :38:40.studio is the economist and lecturer at the LSE, and the author of When
:38:41. > :38:48.China Rules The World, Martin Jakes. Can we come to you in Taiwan first.
:38:49. > :38:58.You intervened and spoke to the premier, what do you think you
:38:59. > :39:02.achieved in that protest? Any protest has the same logic, you
:39:03. > :39:06.apply pressure and hope your opponent or Government can maybe
:39:07. > :39:12.come up to make the right choice. And then in this case the Chinese
:39:13. > :39:18.Communist Party have failed to do that. They chose the most unlike but
:39:19. > :39:24.actually the worst of all the options. And then when the meeting,
:39:25. > :39:28.when we were summoned to the Great Hall of the People to meet with one
:39:29. > :39:32.of the leaders, we don't know home, and then he came to meet with us,
:39:33. > :39:37.and I thought we are meeting the premier. Maybe this is the moment we
:39:38. > :39:41.can make that pressure work, you know, finally the pressure brought
:39:42. > :39:45.the supreme leaders, so we can tell them what we really want. What we
:39:46. > :39:49.wanted was dialogue, and hopefully from that dialogue something can
:39:50. > :39:54.emerge, something like freedom of expression and then maybe freedom of
:39:55. > :39:59.assembly. And then he gave us this monolougue and then there were going
:40:00. > :40:04.on and gone, and he's saying he's late. I thought, wow, OK, premier
:40:05. > :40:10.being a gentleman, but then he immediately turned that to us, and
:40:11. > :40:15.said because he's late for 20 minutes because Beijing is in such
:40:16. > :40:22.chaos, then he blamed the students for the chaos. So the monologue
:40:23. > :40:27.going on, the TV cameras are shooting, we don't know if it is
:40:28. > :40:30.live broadcasting, but we know this doesn't look good, this is not what
:40:31. > :40:35.we hoped for, this is not the dialogue we are asking for. So with
:40:36. > :40:40.a brief exchange with the students sitting next to me, and then we
:40:41. > :40:46.decided to interrupt him. And I did it. So I think that will at least
:40:47. > :40:50.show the people in front of the TV a clear message that we are not here
:40:51. > :40:55.to be talked down at. We're here to give the Government a lecture. So we
:40:56. > :40:59.told, I told the premier that yes, you are late, but you are not 20
:41:00. > :41:07.minutes late, we called upon you a month ago. You are a month late. So
:41:08. > :41:12.I guess he' never prepared for being electured by a 21-year-old. So he
:41:13. > :41:16.was stung, and that has been broadcast nationwide that evening.
:41:17. > :41:28.Do you think you achieved anything in this protest? It is a big
:41:29. > :41:35.question, we all know the result of that, bloodshed in China. But if the
:41:36. > :41:39.20th century, to be recorded, I'm sure, antifascism, and the
:41:40. > :41:43.anticommunist aggression will be the two major campaigns to record, and
:41:44. > :41:49.then China, the Chinese students, we took on the streets, basically
:41:50. > :41:54.started the decisive battle of the second campaign, and then that
:41:55. > :41:58.campaign has reached victory in Eastern Europe, in Soviet European,
:41:59. > :42:04.did we achieve that? I think in part, yes, we contributed to that.
:42:05. > :42:08.But unfortunately we are left out, although in the last 25 years the
:42:09. > :42:15.Chinese Government have to give in to some of the demands we made.
:42:16. > :42:20.Never really what we wanted. But we are, yes. How live an issue is this,
:42:21. > :42:27.if the events of Tiananmen Square, so long ago, how live an issue is it
:42:28. > :42:32.still in China? Today it is you know, it is not a topic that
:42:33. > :42:39.everyone discusses in society. We don't really talk about it we don't
:42:40. > :42:45.feel t but I think what is important is the tremendous economic
:42:46. > :42:50.development did to an extent dwarf the event itself. What about the
:42:51. > :42:54.claim that the Chinese Government acted as it did that it suppressed
:42:55. > :42:58.the protest and made it possible for the Chinese economy to boom along in
:42:59. > :43:07.the way it has done since, is that true? I think that instability,
:43:08. > :43:14.major instability is an enemy of economic development, particularly
:43:15. > :43:21.for a developing country. Not just in China and what you can think of.
:43:22. > :43:24.The problem for the leader of China then was unity was fundamental in
:43:25. > :43:28.his view for economic development. The reason in way things got
:43:29. > :43:33.completely out of control in the way they did, is the leadership became
:43:34. > :43:39.divided and eventually it let to this tragedy, it was a tragedy that
:43:40. > :43:44.so many people died. But what is fascinating is within extremely
:43:45. > :43:49.short space of time, historically speaking, the country began to
:43:50. > :43:54.resume its very rapid growth. Are the two things connected?
:43:55. > :43:58.Absolutely, stability is critical. The fact is China lifted 800 million
:43:59. > :44:01.people out of poverty. That is also a fundamental human right. And we
:44:02. > :44:05.could not have achieved it without stability. You can query about the
:44:06. > :44:15.measures and the means by which we got there, but stability,
:44:16. > :44:21.absolutely. It comes from democracy, communism has been the major factor
:44:22. > :44:30.for Chinese instability. What do you, as a matter of interest, what
:44:31. > :44:33.do you do now? What do you do now? I'm a determined activist, I'm a
:44:34. > :44:40.determined dissident. What do you do for a living? Just like other fellow
:44:41. > :44:44.dissidents in China, for a living, of course being a dissident doesn't
:44:45. > :44:52.put the bread on the table, I'm an investment banker! I think QEDeh!
:44:53. > :44:57.That is the point isn't it? Was it really, would it really have been
:44:58. > :45:00.impossible for China to have married economic freedom with political
:45:01. > :45:03.freedom do you think? It is really easy to talk about the counter
:45:04. > :45:09.faction, we don't know what would have happened, but what I think
:45:10. > :45:15.against gets not emphasised enough is the major improvement of the last
:45:16. > :45:19.20 years, and democratic elements have been introduced in society, we
:45:20. > :45:24.see through the microblogs and the Government responding more to
:45:25. > :45:28.people's demands. Why is it is not a live issue, this was a very, very
:45:29. > :45:34.powerfully emotional story, that went right around the world of
:45:35. > :45:39.people trying to demand freedom and being, and having their protests
:45:40. > :45:43.suppressed? Why is it not resonating in China? Clearly it was an
:45:44. > :45:51.important moment, but in terms of China as a whole, I think in the
:45:52. > :45:56.west we probably greatly exaggerated its significance. It wasn't a
:45:57. > :46:00.China-wide movement that drew in large numbers of people. The
:46:01. > :46:05.extraordinary thing if you look back now, 1989, how did we interpret
:46:06. > :46:09.1989, Tiananmen Square first, Folaued by the fall of the Berlin
:46:10. > :46:16.wall and the collapse of the Soviet Union, the end of communism, that is
:46:17. > :46:20.how we interpret it in the west. We were right about the Soviet Union
:46:21. > :46:26.and Eastern Europe but wrong about China. What happened was very
:46:27. > :46:31.quickly China's growth was resumed and the Chinese Communist Party has
:46:32. > :46:36.presided over the greatest economic transformation in history. History,
:46:37. > :46:44.the world does not look the same now as it did then. In China, that
:46:45. > :46:49.image, t photograph, Tank Man, the young man stopping the prosession of
:46:50. > :46:55.tanks, is that known or resonated in China? Plenty of people, a lot of
:46:56. > :46:59.people are travelling abroad, students are educated abroad and see
:47:00. > :47:03.this picture, while it is officially not present. The knowledge of that
:47:04. > :47:07.existence of that photo is very much in the society. Thank you all very
:47:08. > :47:09.much. That's unfortunately all we are allowed to have time for