:00:00. > :00:12.Hello from New York, the Iraq Government's frantic appeal to the
:00:13. > :00:16.United States for military help against the Islamist guerrillas who
:00:17. > :00:19.captured two of the country's key cities is formally under
:00:20. > :00:23.consideration by the White House. But the former Secretary of State,
:00:24. > :00:29.Hillary Clinton, says the only reasonable answer at this stage is a
:00:30. > :00:36.resounding no. No, I agree with the White House's resection and
:00:37. > :00:43.reluctance to do the kind of military activities that the Mall
:00:44. > :00:47.Government is requesting, namely fighter aircraft. We hear from
:00:48. > :00:52.Hillary Clinton why Putin is dangerous and why Scotland ought to
:00:53. > :00:55.stay in the union and whether women would run the world better than men,
:00:56. > :00:59.and of course, on whether she will run for the White House herself.
:01:00. > :01:04.How would America have been different if you had beaten Obama to
:01:05. > :01:16.the White House? (Laughs) I don't know. And we will never know. You
:01:17. > :01:20.must care? We will never know Jeremy. We will talk about America's
:01:21. > :01:24.place in the world with two people who should be concerned, and we will
:01:25. > :01:35.talk about the Prime Minister of free Iraq.
:01:36. > :01:41.# Ain't no valley low enough # Ain't no river wide enough
:01:42. > :01:46.She just put down the book she was reading and walked the entire length
:01:47. > :01:51.of the law library and said. If you are going to keep looking at me and
:01:52. > :01:59.me looking back, we better know each other. I'm not some little woman
:02:00. > :02:06.standing by her man like Tammy Wynette. I could have fulfilled my
:02:07. > :02:09.profession which I entered before my husband was in public life. I have
:02:10. > :02:14.so many opportunities from this country, I just don't want to see us
:02:15. > :02:27.fall backwards. I endorse him and throw my full support behind him.
:02:28. > :02:35.The United States has conducted an operation that killed Osama Bin
:02:36. > :02:38.Laden, the leader of Al-Qaeda. Wait you want me to tell you what my
:02:39. > :02:50.husband thinks, he's not the Secretary of State, I am. Now, until
:02:51. > :02:55.last year the latest crisis in Iraq would have been another problem for
:02:56. > :02:59.the Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama took office
:03:00. > :03:03.promising to end the war on Iraq, well he has certainly withdrawn
:03:04. > :03:07.plenty of US troops, but the war in Iraq has suddenly got a whole lot
:03:08. > :03:11.worse, the threat from radical Islam may have been greatly exaggerated
:03:12. > :03:15.when George W Bush invaded there, but it is real enough right now. In
:03:16. > :03:20.the last few days radical Islamists have taken two important cities. I
:03:21. > :03:26.have been to see Hillary Clinton, who has just written her account as
:03:27. > :03:30.time as America's top diplomat. Mrs Clinton, the Government of Iraq is
:03:31. > :03:34.said to be appealing to the United States for help in fighting the
:03:35. > :03:40.problem that it has got with Islamic insurgents. Should military help be
:03:41. > :03:47.given? Not at this time, no. I agree with the White House's rejection and
:03:48. > :03:53.reluctance to do the kind of military activities that the Mall
:03:54. > :04:03.Government is requesting, namely fighter aircraft to provide close
:04:04. > :04:11.support for -- Almeria Government to provide fighter aircraft to vied to
:04:12. > :04:17.provide the support. Nouri Al-Maliki has to show he's prepared to do the
:04:18. > :04:23.job. The army which hasn't been able to hold territory had an injection
:04:24. > :04:27.of discipline, something the United States has been trying to help with,
:04:28. > :04:31.Nouri Al-Maliki has to be prepared to demonstrate unequiffly that he's
:04:32. > :04:34.a leader for all Iraqis not a sectarian slice of the country. But
:04:35. > :04:39.the White House is saying no option is ruled out? That's what they
:04:40. > :04:43.should say, because part of what they are trying to do. You think
:04:44. > :04:49.they should rule some things out? At this time, yes. Because the
:04:50. > :04:53.conditions precedent have not been accepted or set by Nouri Al-Maliki.
:04:54. > :04:58.What the White House is doing is making it very clear to him what
:04:59. > :05:01.they would have to say, and not that they would necessarily provide the
:05:02. > :05:04.kind of support he is asking for, but the sort of the support that the
:05:05. > :05:07.United States believes would be appropriate. But it would be
:05:08. > :05:11.inappropriate to send in ground forces of any kind? Yes, that is not
:05:12. > :05:15.going to happen. Never, under any circumstances? I never say never,
:05:16. > :05:19.because one doesn't know the world is so unpredictable. But certainly
:05:20. > :05:25.not in any foreseeable future that I'm aware of. When you look at what
:05:26. > :05:29.is happening in Iraq do you feel guilty supporting the invasion? I
:05:30. > :05:33.made a mistake giving the Bush administration the authority I voted
:05:34. > :05:38.for. It was not used as I expected it to be used and the entire
:05:39. > :05:43.implementation strategy was flawed. So, yes, I made a mistake, and I
:05:44. > :05:48.deeply regret the consequences. That country wasn't broken before the
:05:49. > :05:54.invasion? It was a broken country, even though it had a dictator. Who
:05:55. > :05:58.held it together? Hoi who by force and brutally would keep it together.
:05:59. > :06:03.He had invaded Kuwait and gassed the Kurds. He was no shining example of
:06:04. > :06:07.sovereignty and territorial integrity. Nobody suggests he was a
:06:08. > :06:12.nice guy. He was worse than not a nice guy. But that is not the
:06:13. > :06:16.debate. The debate now is it was done, the invasion occurred, he was
:06:17. > :06:20.deposed, the Iraqi people were given a chance to chart a different
:06:21. > :06:23.course, some of them have done quite well, the Kurds in the north have
:06:24. > :06:29.done extremely well. But the Government that came in through the
:06:30. > :06:32.elections, which were deemed internationally acceptable has not
:06:33. > :06:36.done what it needed to do to try to unify the country, bring Sunni and
:06:37. > :06:41.Shi'ite alike, bring the different factions within together. Compare
:06:42. > :06:44.Iraq, where there was intervention, with Syria where there was no
:06:45. > :06:48.intervention? Just shows you how hard it is to make these choice,
:06:49. > :06:54.which is why I'm calling the book Hard Choices, because I did advocate
:06:55. > :07:01.for limited but focussed action in Syria to try to vet, train and equip
:07:02. > :07:05.moderate opponents of Assad. And you were overruled by the President? I
:07:06. > :07:11.was overruled, in part because of the lessons from Iraq. It is hard to
:07:12. > :07:16.get a little bit pregnant, so to speak, in being involved in these
:07:17. > :07:19.countries' internal conflicts, but I did think there was a potential
:07:20. > :07:26.role. Now of course, what I say in the book was a wicked problem has
:07:27. > :07:31.become even wickedier. How much was the decision not to get involved in
:07:32. > :07:34.Syria influenced by the fact that the British parliament held that
:07:35. > :07:40.surprising vote not to have any military intervention? I'm sure that
:07:41. > :07:44.influenced it, because that vote was some days prior to the President
:07:45. > :07:48.having to make a final decision, and it was, there was a series of votes
:07:49. > :07:53.as I recall what happened in the British parliament. The individual
:07:54. > :07:56.votes were defeated, but if you had added up all the votes for
:07:57. > :08:00.everything that would have been a positive, you could have gotten to
:08:01. > :08:05.that, but for all kinds of reasons and I don't pretend to understand
:08:06. > :08:08.the intricacies of British politics or parliamentary procedure, it was a
:08:09. > :08:11.defeat for the idea that there should be intervention. And that
:08:12. > :08:16.influenced the American decision not to intervene? I believe it did. I
:08:17. > :08:20.was out of office by then, but it is my understanding that it certainly
:08:21. > :08:26.was taken into account. Can we talk a little about Russia. You famously
:08:27. > :08:30.pressed the "reset" button, are you embarrassed now by that gesture? No,
:08:31. > :08:34.I thought it was a brilliant stroke, which in retrospect appears even
:08:35. > :08:38.more so, look at what we accomplished, between the Russian
:08:39. > :08:43.invasion of Georgia in August 2008, which of course torpedoed relations
:08:44. > :08:50.between the United States and Russia for good reason. We come into office
:08:51. > :08:53.and for that period of time if you will, Medvedev is President and
:08:54. > :08:58.Putin is Prime Minister. There were jobs we wanted to get done. We
:08:59. > :09:02.wanted to get Russia on board with tough sanctions against Iran. We
:09:03. > :09:06.wanted to have a new start treaty and limit nuclear weapons. We wanted
:09:07. > :09:10.their help in transiting across their huge country to get things
:09:11. > :09:14.into Afghanistan. We got all that done. Putin comes back, look where
:09:15. > :09:20.we are now. He invaded another country. So yes, while we had that
:09:21. > :09:25.moment we seized it, we used it and succeeded. Do you think Putin is a
:09:26. > :09:30.dangerous man? He can be. Is he a man who exploits weakness? I think
:09:31. > :09:40.he acts out of his perceived weakness of Russia. I believe his
:09:41. > :09:44.goal is to reassert Russian power, he would be perfectly happy if t
:09:45. > :09:48.Soviet Union could be reconstituted, but he's enough of a realist to know
:09:49. > :09:54.that is not going to happen. He wants to in so far as possible
:09:55. > :10:00.control Soviet Republics in central Asia and intimidate those in Europe.
:10:01. > :10:05.Like any person, of course, with a view that's what power should be
:10:06. > :10:10.used for, if he sees weakness or disorder, because I think he was as
:10:11. > :10:14.affected by what he perceived as disorder in Ukraine than by
:10:15. > :10:21.weakness, he acted in large measure because of what happens happening in
:10:22. > :10:25.Maiden Square, of course he will explore the boundaries as far as he
:10:26. > :10:29.can. You made some strong comments about Ukraine, but you would concede
:10:30. > :10:33.that Ukraine is within Russia's sphere of influence? Of course I
:10:34. > :10:36.would not. You wouldn't? There can't be spheres of influence in today's
:10:37. > :10:42.world, particularly post World War ll. Not even the case of Cuba and
:10:43. > :10:47.the United States? They are clearly not in our sphere of influence. I
:10:48. > :10:51.talk about that in the book, let's end the embargo and go back with
:10:52. > :10:54.them. Russia wants a sphere of influence, that is what this is all
:10:55. > :10:58.about, Georgia don't you dare choose as a sovereign nation that you
:10:59. > :11:02.wouldn't to look toward Europe. He has legitimate concerns doesn't he?
:11:03. > :11:07.No he does not, think of the energy he is using to plot and compeer
:11:08. > :11:12.against the freedom that -- conspire against the freedom the people have
:11:13. > :11:15.gained because of the fall of the Soviet Union. Russia could be a
:11:16. > :11:20.truly great country, not a bullying country, not totally dependant on
:11:21. > :11:24.oil and gas and using it to intimidate its neighbours but he has
:11:25. > :11:27.made a different voice choice, and it is regrettable for Russia. Every
:11:28. > :11:32.country has vital interests doesn't it? Absolutely. Isn't the security
:11:33. > :11:42.of Ukraine a vital interest for Russia? No it is not. I mean Ukraine
:11:43. > :11:46.is a customer for Gazprom, Ukraine has Russian ethnic, Russian
:11:47. > :11:51.speakers, so there are cultural connections, but Ukraine became an
:11:52. > :11:55.independent country. Of course Russia can try to partner with
:11:56. > :11:59.Ukraine, but Russia should not feel that it can give orders to Ukraine,
:12:00. > :12:03.and if Ukraine doesn't abide by those orders it can take aggressive
:12:04. > :12:09.action. That is not acceptable. When you were running American foreign
:12:10. > :12:12.policy, you must have thought what are America's vital interests here,
:12:13. > :12:17.and you must have thought about something else. Now at the time the
:12:18. > :12:22.British were the imperial power in the world someone like Palmerston
:12:23. > :12:25.could have given you a one-sentence definition about what the British
:12:26. > :12:29.Empire was about. What is America about in the world now? We are
:12:30. > :12:32.certainly not about an empire, we never have been about an empire, it
:12:33. > :12:36.is one of the very important differences that sets us apart. We
:12:37. > :12:41.do take military action as you know, and then we go back home. But what
:12:42. > :12:47.we are about is promoting our values, absolutely. I believe there
:12:48. > :12:50.should be a contest of values. If Russia believes its system is better
:12:51. > :12:54.than the west's, that Ukraine should not be part of the European Union,
:12:55. > :12:59.getting to make choices for itself, let the people of Ukraine hear both
:13:00. > :13:03.sides, and figure out what they want to do, not have it imposed. I hope
:13:04. > :13:07.what we can return to is that kind of debate about the future in the
:13:08. > :13:13.21st century. The United States will certainly be a vigorous proponent of
:13:14. > :13:20.what we believe and want to see happen. How would you summarise what
:13:21. > :13:23.the vital interests and values are? It starts with security, number one
:13:24. > :13:27.for any Government, we need to protect our people and friends and
:13:28. > :13:31.partners and allies around the world. Secondly we have to promote
:13:32. > :13:36.global prosperity and a rules-based order that needs to be updated to
:13:37. > :13:40.fit the modern conditions in the global economy, to promote
:13:41. > :13:44.broad-based inclusive prosperity. Thirdly, we want to promote and
:13:45. > :13:49.protect human rights, we think that is part of our DNA, our mission. So
:13:50. > :13:52.when you look at our promotion of our values, our pursuit of our
:13:53. > :13:56.interests, and the protection of our security, we have to all the time
:13:57. > :14:00.try to figure out which is first, which is second and which is third
:14:01. > :14:04.in every situation. You say in the book that there was a shift of
:14:05. > :14:11.emphasis in American foreign policy, you are less preoccupied with what
:14:12. > :14:15.Rumsfeld called "the old Europe", you are less preoccupied with the
:14:16. > :14:19.transatlantic relationships and alliances and more preoccupied with
:14:20. > :14:23.things going on in Asia and other parts of the world. Does that mean
:14:24. > :14:27.that Europe is less important to you now than it used to be? No, I try to
:14:28. > :14:32.make very clear in the book that I thought we needed to renew and
:14:33. > :14:38.rebuild the important alliances that we have in Europe. Europe are our
:14:39. > :14:43.partners of first resort. This is where we really live, however, when
:14:44. > :14:47.I became Secretary of State I quickly learned that Asia thought
:14:48. > :14:51.the Bush administration had totally neglected it. And we have vital
:14:52. > :14:56.interests there. We have defence treaties, we have promised to defend
:14:57. > :14:59.people. So it wasn't moving away from, it was pivoting towards
:15:00. > :15:04.without losing the importance, because I went to Asian in February,
:15:05. > :15:08.Europe in March and made the case from the very beginning. What about
:15:09. > :15:13.the boring old cliche about the "special relationship" is that worth
:15:14. > :15:17.anything nowadays? It is worth everything to me and our country,
:15:18. > :15:20.I'm a big anglophile when it comes to special relationship, and partly
:15:21. > :15:24.because I think we see the world very simply. I worked with two
:15:25. > :15:31.foreign secretaries, one Labour, one Tory, I had so much in common with
:15:32. > :15:36.both Ed Miliband David Miliband and William Hague. We can talk about
:15:37. > :15:39.things in an easy fashion, despite political differences between them
:15:40. > :15:45.and our own country, there was a base of understanding that is so
:15:46. > :15:52.understanding. And comforting. Do you think the United States will be
:15:53. > :15:58.enhanced or diminished in their relationship with the UK if we hold
:15:59. > :16:01.a referendum on Europe. You are drawing me into dangerous waters.
:16:02. > :16:04.You are clever enough to deal with it? That is a political decision at
:16:05. > :16:09.the very core of it. Europe needs Britain, in my opinion. I think
:16:10. > :16:12.Britain brings a perspective and experience that is very important to
:16:13. > :16:19.Europe, especially post-economic crisis. So Britain will have to
:16:20. > :16:22.decide if they agree with that. And what about whether Scotland is
:16:23. > :16:28.intergrel to Britain? I would hate to have you lose Scotland. I got an
:16:29. > :16:32.honourary degree from St Andrews. You are perfectly happy to interfere
:16:33. > :16:37.in British politics on the question of the union, why not other matters?
:16:38. > :16:41.I hope that it doesn't happen. I don't have a vote in Scotland, I
:16:42. > :16:45.would hope it doesn't happen. Why? Because it just seems like. They are
:16:46. > :16:51.entitled to their freedom as much as Ukraine? Well if there had been a
:16:52. > :16:55.real referendum as opposed to a rump and intimidating event. It will be a
:16:56. > :16:58.proper referendum? It will be because there is legal process
:16:59. > :17:02.associated with it, we will see what the people of Scotland decide. You
:17:03. > :17:07.know I would think it would be a loss for both sides, again I don't
:17:08. > :17:09.have a vote. Can I ask you about your personal ambitions, you say in
:17:10. > :17:14.the book you have not decided whether you are going to run for the
:17:15. > :17:21.cy. Other factors are going to decide it for you what are the other
:17:22. > :17:24.factors? They are both personal and political, I mean personally I'm
:17:25. > :17:28.about to be a grandmother in the fall. I'm very excited about that. I
:17:29. > :17:32.want to relish the experience, I don't want to be passing through it
:17:33. > :17:37.and looking forward, I want to be right in the middle of it. A
:17:38. > :17:41.presidential campaign, if one decides to do it is 24/7,
:17:42. > :17:44.all-consuming, I'm not ready for that. The most important thing as I
:17:45. > :17:49.say in the end of the book is not the questions, will you run? Or can
:17:50. > :17:54.you win? What is your vision for America and can you lead it there?
:17:55. > :17:58.We are going through one of our periodic, political mess, lots of
:17:59. > :18:04.dysfunction, lots of finger-pointing, inability to reach
:18:05. > :18:08.consensus and compromise. I want to be sure as I evaluate this decision
:18:09. > :18:12.going forward that you know I, number one know where I want to lead
:18:13. > :18:16.the country, and number two that I think I can make that happen. You
:18:17. > :18:20.know that? I don't. You know what you can offer the country? I know in
:18:21. > :18:23.general terms and I haven't said exactly what is my economic policy,
:18:24. > :18:26.we are having a hard time creating jobs what are we actually going to
:18:27. > :18:29.do about it and how can I put together the political coalition,
:18:30. > :18:33.and unlikely partners to achieve that, I haven't done any of that
:18:34. > :18:36.work. I have been focussed on writing the book and talking about
:18:37. > :18:39.the foreign policy and national security issues. How would America
:18:40. > :18:45.have been different if you had beaten Obama to the White House!
:18:46. > :18:50.(Laughs) I don't know. And we will never know. You must care. Whether
:18:51. > :18:55.you know is not quite the same as whether you care? I stopped caring,
:18:56. > :18:58.when I lost and he won that was the end for me, I ended up actually
:18:59. > :19:02.working for him. Do you think that is good for America, was it good for
:19:03. > :19:06.America? Of course it was, are you kidding, absolutely. It was so
:19:07. > :19:09.fortunate for me after the hard, long intense campaign that I got to
:19:10. > :19:13.support somebody with whom I had so much in common, even though we had
:19:14. > :19:20.differences, we agreed on much more than we disagreed on. I don't
:19:21. > :19:23.rummate -- ruminate, I'm not sitting around and thinking about what might
:19:24. > :19:27.have been, that is not my thought process. He won, I pledged my
:19:28. > :19:31.support, I helped him in every way that I could, and he asked me to be
:19:32. > :19:37.Secretary of State. It is a very unusual path, but one that I have
:19:38. > :19:42.quite enjoyed. We are roughly the same sort of age. Oh good, you are
:19:43. > :19:47.so young! Exactly, we are both past that great water mark, and I just
:19:48. > :19:50.wonder why on earth anybody would want to go back into the White
:19:51. > :19:56.House, given your experience of the torrid time you had there last time?
:19:57. > :19:59.We got a lot done, I'm proud of what happened in the country and proud of
:20:00. > :20:02.what President Obama has done. If you take the eight years of Bill
:20:03. > :20:07.Clinton and Barack Obama, and you compare it to the eight years of
:20:08. > :20:13.Regan, the eight years of Bush, the country was so much better off with
:20:14. > :20:17.progressive energetic democratic Presidents, the economy was
:20:18. > :20:21.stronger, our fiscal house was much better ordered. We are starting to
:20:22. > :20:25.get healthcare, something you all take for granted. We did positive
:20:26. > :20:29.things for the American people in those years. All the intrusion into
:20:30. > :20:34.your personal life? I mean there is hardly anything left! It will make
:20:35. > :20:42.for pretty boring reading if it continues! So that hasn't put you
:20:43. > :20:46.off? No, no. It hasn't. In part because I have a pretty good idea
:20:47. > :20:50.that this is a contact sport, as we say, politics in the United States
:20:51. > :20:57.at the moment in our history is very rough and tumble because there are
:20:58. > :21:01.big stakes. Unfortunately people sometimes engage in unsavoury,
:21:02. > :21:05.negative name calling and the like. That is part of it, I understand
:21:06. > :21:10.that. If you are not tough enough to get into that arena then truly you
:21:11. > :21:14.should not even put your toe in, because it is quite a gauntlet. You
:21:15. > :21:19.can hit me for asking you this? I may! Do you think you would ever
:21:20. > :21:23.have become Secretary of State had you not been Mrs Clinton?
:21:24. > :21:27.Absolutely. Yeah, I think that question ended when I ran for the
:21:28. > :21:33.Senate. When I ran for the Senate and I ran first against a very
:21:34. > :21:38.dominant figure, then mayor Guliani, then I ran against a young
:21:39. > :21:42.Congressman with a lot more money rushing into his campaign. The fact
:21:43. > :21:47.that the people of New York elected me ended that debate. I'm very
:21:48. > :21:52.grateful that I learned a lot and I continue to learn from my husband's
:21:53. > :21:57.political acumen and decision-making. I think what caused
:21:58. > :22:00.the President, President Obama to ask me to be Secretary of State was
:22:01. > :22:05.actually that campaign, because until you go through that sort of
:22:06. > :22:07.ordeal and you know how hard it is for the other person, you don't know
:22:08. > :22:10.what they are really made of, and the President told me, I watched you
:22:11. > :22:13.under the most difficult circumstances and you are the person
:22:14. > :22:16.I want to represent our country while I'm dealing with the economic
:22:17. > :22:20.mess. I asked the question because while I'm dealing with the economic
:22:21. > :22:22.there is a deficit of women at a high level in politics. I would be
:22:23. > :22:25.very interested high level in politics. I would be
:22:26. > :22:31.response to this, which is do you think women at the highest levels of
:22:32. > :22:37.politics behave differently to men? I think that many do, I'm not going
:22:38. > :22:40.to over-generalise and say all do. It is my experience working with
:22:41. > :22:47.women heads of state and Government that on issues affecting family
:22:48. > :22:52.life, children's well being, women's opportunities, there is a much
:22:53. > :22:57.greater immediate recognition of the importance of those issues. Now that
:22:58. > :23:00.again I say as a generalisation, and not all fit into that category. When
:23:01. > :23:05.I sit down and talk with the President of Brazil, or the
:23:06. > :23:13.President of Chile or the President of a country in Asia whether it be
:23:14. > :23:17.Mrs Bhutto before ousted or assassinated or anything else, the
:23:18. > :23:22.conversation about some of these social issues is very much embedded
:23:23. > :23:24.in the political discourse, and an awareness of how hard a lot of the
:23:25. > :23:28.decision making is for awareness of how hard a lot of the
:23:29. > :23:35.today in many parts of the world. Hillary Clinton, thank you. Thank
:23:36. > :23:39.you Jeremy. So where stands America in the world, Obama is being
:23:40. > :23:49.increasingly criticised for not doing much in foreign affairs. Let's
:23:50. > :23:55.see what the political columnists with me, let's see what they make of
:23:56. > :24:01.it. Let's start with Iraq, she was pretty unambiguous, but a high-risk
:24:02. > :24:04.game? She seemed frighteningly jolly throughout the whole interview, she
:24:05. > :24:12.laughed an awful lot, didn't she. It was a tight laugh. But, her position
:24:13. > :24:17.on Iraq is kind of surprising since she has been an interventionist at
:24:18. > :24:23.almost every turn in the past. What do you deduce from that? That she's
:24:24. > :24:29.running for President. That was going to be my next question? Let me
:24:30. > :24:33.ask you what did you make of her position on Iraq? It is clear she's
:24:34. > :24:37.running for President, she had a vote that she cast several years ago
:24:38. > :24:41.that put her at odds with a lot of folks in her own party and I think
:24:42. > :24:45.she's doing everything she can to protect her left flank and avoid a
:24:46. > :24:49.substantial primary. But I think it is very clear from that interview
:24:50. > :24:54.that she's running for President. You seem pretty certain, both of
:24:55. > :24:59.you? Not 100% certain, you can't be in American politics, and no matter
:25:00. > :25:05.what she said to you, I know that public life has taken a real toll on
:25:06. > :25:10.her at times. You know when she was out stumping for her healthcare plan
:25:11. > :25:14.in 1994 there was a day in Seattle where people were cursing her and
:25:15. > :25:20.spitting on her and it took a while for her to recover from that. What
:25:21. > :25:24.sort of a candidate is she going to make if she does run for President,
:25:25. > :25:28.what do you think Katie? I think the unique thing about Hillary Clinton
:25:29. > :25:32.is that she is just a political animal to her core. I think you know
:25:33. > :25:37.from the first time that Bill Clinton ran for office back in
:25:38. > :25:40.Arkansas, you know, politics has really driven the decisions that
:25:41. > :25:46.they have made as a family and the decisions that she has made. I think
:25:47. > :25:49.she always saw herself with a political career post-White House,
:25:50. > :25:52.and was very calculated in all of the decision that is she made. I
:25:53. > :25:58.don't think we have seen anything that's come out of this book that
:25:59. > :26:01.indicates that this is any kind of real biography or real tell-all of
:26:02. > :26:05.her time as Secretary of State. It is very clearly an opportunity to
:26:06. > :26:09.start a campaign before a campaign starts. Somebody said to me earlier
:26:10. > :26:13.is it was an attempt to explain to the American people where she has
:26:14. > :26:18.been for the last few years? Right since Americans do not follow
:26:19. > :26:24.foreign policy at all, unfortunately. But it seems to me
:26:25. > :26:29.that she has, she's on a very clear path here, and there are an awful
:26:30. > :26:35.lot of things that she doesn't write about in the book. And there has
:26:36. > :26:41.been an awful lot of scrubbing going on here. But I think that she would
:26:42. > :26:46.be a good candidate, not as good as her husband who was the best I have
:26:47. > :26:52.ever seen. I think that she will face a challenge from the left-wing
:26:53. > :26:56.of the Democratic party, especially on her positions towards Wall Street
:26:57. > :27:02.which have become very controversial because of her husband's positions
:27:03. > :27:08.towards Wall Street. Do you think, given that elections are all about,
:27:09. > :27:12.or usually, providing it is not a second term selection, they are
:27:13. > :27:16.about changes of direction. She represents continuity, doesn't she?
:27:17. > :27:21.She sure does represent continuity, and I think if you look at her
:27:22. > :27:25.policy positions, she's a whole lot more like Barack Obama than she is
:27:26. > :27:30.like Bill Clinton, you know Bill Clinton comes from a small town in
:27:31. > :27:35.Arkansas, kind of a country boy, he really understood how to connect
:27:36. > :27:38.with real people. I share Joe's view that he was a brilliant politician
:27:39. > :27:43.and knew how to connect with working people. I think coming out of the
:27:44. > :27:47.gate with this book tour, you know she's had some real stumbles in
:27:48. > :27:53.conveying herself as somebody that left the White House broke and she's
:27:54. > :27:57.going to be a very different kind of politician than her husband was. I
:27:58. > :28:02.think we will see her continue the policies of the Obama administration
:28:03. > :28:09.as we saw in the interview. He had a few gafes too, I seem to recall.
:28:10. > :28:14.Different kinds. That is the biggest problem she face, historically it
:28:15. > :28:20.has been pretty tough for politicians to essentially run for a
:28:21. > :28:25.third term after they have, George HW Bush did a pretty good job of it,
:28:26. > :28:31.but Ronald Regan was phenomenally popular, and even Bush got into some
:28:32. > :28:38.trouble, he said he wanted a kinder, gentler nation, and Nancy Regan said
:28:39. > :28:43."kinder and gentler than what"? What about this question of America's
:28:44. > :28:49.standing in the world, you hear people say a lot that because Obama
:28:50. > :28:53.is low-profile in foreign affairs that some how the country is
:28:54. > :28:57.diminished. Is that a widespread view? I think there is certainly a
:28:58. > :29:01.widespread view among the American people that our place in the world
:29:02. > :29:05.has been some what diminished, I think certainly with the rise of
:29:06. > :29:10.Putin, and I was very surprised to see her so whole heartedly embrace
:29:11. > :29:14.this reset strategy as a brilliant move. I don't think that is where
:29:15. > :29:17.the American people will see it. I don't think that foreign policy is
:29:18. > :29:21.something that drives the American vote. But I do think that the
:29:22. > :29:28.American people feel like we are weaker than we were. I disagree, I
:29:29. > :29:34.think that our standing in the world is certainly higher now than it was
:29:35. > :29:40.when George W Bush, who didn't know the difference between a Sunni and a
:29:41. > :29:44.Shi'ite invaded Iraq. That wasn't the question, it was is that how the
:29:45. > :29:48.American people view it? I do think the American people are really sick,
:29:49. > :29:53.including most of the Republicans I meet in the country, are really sick
:29:54. > :30:00.of us going in and imposing our will in places that were... He has a
:30:01. > :30:05.short-term problem in Iraq, if that is taken over by a bunch of Islamist
:30:06. > :30:08.nutcases? It isn't going to be, for the same reason we shouldn't have
:30:09. > :30:21.gone in the first makes because Iraq is not a country. It is three
:30:22. > :30:26.different satraps from the out Monday Otteman empire. The problem
:30:27. > :30:30.is all the straight borders you Brits drew years ago. There is a
:30:31. > :30:34.time you have to stop blaming your great, great, great-grand parents?
:30:35. > :30:37.It is not me, it is the people who live in the area who want to
:30:38. > :30:43.determine where their countries are, and they don't go with the straight
:30:44. > :30:47.line borders. Is this a huge problem? Huge over the next 30
:30:48. > :30:51.years. Of course it is going to be a big problem, the American people I
:30:52. > :30:55.feel regardless of what the tactical solution is in Iraq today, the
:30:56. > :30:58.American people want to view our country as strong. They take a lot
:30:59. > :31:02.of pride in that. I don't think what has happened in Russia in the last
:31:03. > :31:05.several years has been viewed as something that has been taking a
:31:06. > :31:08.strong position against Russia. Thank you very much indeed. That is
:31:09. > :31:10.it from New York, let's return to the story of Iraq and join Kirsty in
:31:11. > :31:17.London. So President the story of Iraq and join Kirsty in
:31:18. > :31:22.indicated that the US is prepared to take military action to prevent
:31:23. > :31:27.Jihadists gaining a foothold in Iraq, not ruling anything out.
:31:28. > :31:31.Judging by the relenties advance of Isis on Baghdad, after securing
:31:32. > :31:36.broad swathes of Iraq, the country is already in danger of fracturing.
:31:37. > :31:44.A warning this film contains images that some viewers may find
:31:45. > :31:50.disturbing. So Isis consolidates his hold on
:31:51. > :31:56.Mosul, it has issued religious edicts, insisting on five prayers a
:31:57. > :32:00.day and Islamic modesty, and it is pressing its fighters south towards
:32:01. > :32:05.Baghdad. The Government's response? There have been air attacks on Mosul
:32:06. > :32:09.and Tikrit, precisely the type of tactic that alienated so many Sunnis
:32:10. > :32:13.in the first place. But is the Sunni community solid, or could more
:32:14. > :32:19.moderate leaders be lured away from Isis. One of the generals who helped
:32:20. > :32:22.split the Sunni insurgency against the coalition thinks it could be
:32:23. > :32:29.done again. One of the most significant things that happened in
:32:30. > :32:35.2006 and 2007 is certainly large numbers of the tribal elders
:32:36. > :32:41.particularly in western Iraq got thoroughly disenchanted with what
:32:42. > :32:45.Al-Qaeda is doing. One the risks that Isis runs at the present time
:32:46. > :32:48.is creating exactly the same effect amongst some of the more
:32:49. > :32:52.conservative parts of the Sunni population. There are also secular
:32:53. > :32:56.moderate Sunni who don't want to be any part of this. By no stretch of
:32:57. > :33:02.the imagination can it possibly be said that Isis speaks for the Sunni
:33:03. > :33:09.community. Al-Qaeda in the land of two rivers, Iraq started when
:33:10. > :33:12.Jordanian Jihadist swore allegance to Osama Bin Laden. As he gained
:33:13. > :33:17.followers through spectacular attacks and beheadings, he became
:33:18. > :33:22.make's top target in Iraq. After they killed him, the Jihadists
:33:23. > :33:28.regrouped and in September 2006 relaunched themselves as the Islamic
:33:29. > :33:31.State of Iraq. But their fortunes waned, Sunni tribes were turned
:33:32. > :33:40.against them, coalition Special Forces killed and captured
:33:41. > :33:43.thousands. One of those detainees, Al-Bagdadi, released when the
:33:44. > :33:47.Americans withdrew, emerged as a powerful figure in the Syrian Civil
:33:48. > :33:55.War. In April last year he formed the Islamic State of Iraq and
:33:56. > :34:04.AlSham, meaning Syria, Isis. He takes names like Al-Husani, which
:34:05. > :34:08.aims to say he's descended from the Prophet Mohammed's family. He calls
:34:09. > :34:14.himself names that says he's from the same Arab tribe as the prophet
:34:15. > :34:20.comes from. There is no doubt he's projecting himself as the legitimate
:34:21. > :34:26.successor to those from early Islam. Couched in 14th century language,
:34:27. > :34:31.Isis has brought 14th century justice to the Syrian town it has
:34:32. > :34:36.controlled for months. There has been crucifixions and beheadings,
:34:37. > :34:43.churches descrated. What is so woeful about the Mall malfailure is
:34:44. > :34:52.it has disregarded key aspects of the successful coalition approach.
:34:53. > :34:58.Some of the mill ligses hired 60,000 Sunni insurge -- back in 2008 when
:34:59. > :35:02.we filmed them, members predicted that the Shia led Government would
:35:03. > :35:11.get rid of them as soon as the Americans had gone. That is exactly
:35:12. > :35:15.what happened. Back in Dura this spring, we were told that what was
:35:16. > :35:20.once an awakening force of 1500 policing the district had now shrunk
:35:21. > :35:26.to one dozen. In its place Government police mostly Shia
:35:27. > :35:31.outsiders. The defence of Baghdad could now depend on Shia militias
:35:32. > :35:38.with Iranian support. While in the north Kurdish fighters have assumed
:35:39. > :35:42.control of the city of Kirkuk. That growing sectarianism makes it all
:35:43. > :35:48.the heard to lure Sunni support away from the Jihadists again. The
:35:49. > :35:56.insurgency as a whole is a lot more dominated by Isis than back in the
:35:57. > :35:59.days of the Iraq War. I mean Al-Qaeda in Iraq in the Islamic
:36:00. > :36:05.state of Iraq were important, but I think there was a lot more variety
:36:06. > :36:10.in terms of the insurgent groups and their strains. Where as this time
:36:11. > :36:15.I'm a lot more sceptical. I would apply the same analysis to Syria,
:36:16. > :36:20.where really we have seen the anti-Isis rebel movements, they have
:36:21. > :36:26.really failed to roll back them in any meaningful manner. We see Isis
:36:27. > :36:40.making gains in south eastern Syria. Isis is strong then and survival for
:36:41. > :36:45.the Mall -- the Mall mal-Government could have been feeding the most
:36:46. > :36:51.formidable foes. Joining me from his home in Kingston
:36:52. > :36:56.upon Thames is former Iraqi Prime Minister. Good evening. First of
:36:57. > :37:01.all, you are just back from Baghdad. Is there a real feeling there that
:37:02. > :37:12.you are facing the break up of the country? This is a possibility. I
:37:13. > :37:18.hope it will be a remote possibility of the Iraqis don't pull together
:37:19. > :37:26.and form a unity Government. To get out of the current mess. Otherwise
:37:27. > :37:30.my fear is that potentially the danger does exist on dividing the
:37:31. > :37:34.country. Is this the worst you have seen in 30 years of Iraqi politics,
:37:35. > :37:40.the worst in terms of holding the country together? Definitely it is
:37:41. > :37:46.worse. It is quite dangerous. We have been losing around a thousand
:37:47. > :37:53.Iraqis per month for the last year or so. Killed by terrorist groups.
:37:54. > :38:02.Unfortunately the Government was not able to control this, definitely the
:38:03. > :38:06.political process itself is not an inclusive political process it is
:38:07. > :38:11.being built on sectarian levels and sectarian drives. This has been
:38:12. > :38:16.quite painful to the country. So when you hear that President Obama
:38:17. > :38:20.does not rule out military intervention, not boots on the
:38:21. > :38:29.ground, but military intervention, does that fill you with hope or more
:38:30. > :38:36.concern? I'm more concerned, I think this would add fuel to the fire,
:38:37. > :38:40.unfortunately. I know that the United States has lost its
:38:41. > :38:44.capabilities in Iraq, and indeed in the Middle East, the greater Middle
:38:45. > :38:51.East. We know that there is no clarity in the policy where the
:38:52. > :38:56.American policy is heading with regards to the east. We know the
:38:57. > :39:05.peace process is being stagnant now between the Arabs and the Israelis.
:39:06. > :39:13.Afghanistan, North Africa, Horn of Africa, Syria. There is an increase
:39:14. > :39:17.activities of Al-Qaeda and indeed now it is in Iraq also. To stop this
:39:18. > :39:25.regional conflict, because it is as you say a regional conflict, if
:39:26. > :39:27.there was to be a pull together of Iraq itself, Hillary Clinton says
:39:28. > :39:33.Nouri Al-Maliki has to be more incluesive, something that you agree
:39:34. > :39:36.with. We heard that Lieutenant curl national Robert Fry saying that
:39:37. > :39:41.actually the Sunnis themselves need to be divided off because of course
:39:42. > :39:45.not all Sunnis are part of any kind of extremist grouping. How do you
:39:46. > :39:52.reconcile, do you have a role to play, are you going back? I'm going
:39:53. > :40:00.back in two days time. Tomorrow I'm going back. The problem of Sunnis
:40:01. > :40:04.and Shias is an oversimplification. Never existed in Iraq this problem
:40:05. > :40:10.before. Yes there are pockets, definitely, who do behave in a
:40:11. > :40:16.sectarian way, but by and large the Iraqi people rejected and never
:40:17. > :40:21.thought of along the sectarian lines. What we have is a fight
:40:22. > :40:24.between extremism and moderation. Throughout the greater Middle East,
:40:25. > :40:28.not only in Iraq. And unfortunately there are people within the Sunni
:40:29. > :40:36.block who are extremists and likewise in the Shia group also we
:40:37. > :40:42.have extremism. Likewise on the Kurdish component we have extremism.
:40:43. > :40:47.We have likewise moderation and I think this conflict is widespread
:40:48. > :40:52.throughout the greater Middle East and I believe that when the
:40:53. > :41:00.Americans invaded Iraq, unfortunately they dismandled the
:41:01. > :41:03.state of Iraq, not -- dismantled the state of Iraq, not just Saddam
:41:04. > :41:06.Hussein, the whole state. They wanted to create a new state but
:41:07. > :41:14.they failed to do so because they had no post-conflict policy. Thank
:41:15. > :41:19.you very much for joining us. Brazil opened the World Cup with a
:41:20. > :41:23.hard-fought 1 victory over Croatia, despite the excitement and
:41:24. > :41:29.razzmatazz, there is persistent signs of protest which came to
:41:30. > :41:33.police firing tear bullets and teargas and not extinguishing it.
:41:34. > :41:38.Hours before the tournament kicked off, demonstrators tried to march as
:41:39. > :41:46.close to the arena as possible. Among the protesters is a protestor
:41:47. > :41:54.whose anger at the World Cup has been channelled into her YouTube
:41:55. > :42:01.video I'm Not Going to the World Cup. This is flavour of her film
:42:02. > :42:05.seen by four million people. Some think the World Cup is the incentive
:42:06. > :42:09.for the country to get better. So we will be paying taxes all these years
:42:10. > :42:12.for what? What country needs an incentive to take care of its
:42:13. > :42:15.people. Suddenly there is all this money to build stadiums and the
:42:16. > :42:19.population is led to believe that the World Cup is just the change
:42:20. > :42:22.there needed for their lives to get better. But the truth is that most
:42:23. > :42:28.of the money that comes from the games in the stadiums goes straight
:42:29. > :42:42.to FIFA and we don't even see it. I'm joined now by Carla. That hard
:42:43. > :42:46.fought victory does it bring any bit of excitement from you, do you think
:42:47. > :42:52.it will diminish the protests? Hi there, it actually doesn't bring me
:42:53. > :42:55.any excitement. I think all that I have been through with the veto and
:42:56. > :42:59.everything it is hard to separate the protests from the games, even
:43:00. > :43:03.though the game is a good thing. In my thing it is hard to separate, I
:43:04. > :43:09.can't do it any more. I didn't actually watch the game. Now in
:43:10. > :43:12.terms of protests I think, I don't think it is a matter of the result
:43:13. > :43:18.of the game, but the repression that is going on right now, it is
:43:19. > :43:23.carrying people, it is scaring people, I was there today, was
:43:24. > :43:29.insanely violent. They were putting children at risk, older people, all
:43:30. > :43:34.sorts of people. People that were not even trying to march or do
:43:35. > :43:39.anything. There were two protests, one was the Metro, people from the
:43:40. > :43:42.Metr they were protesting and then there were the people protesting the
:43:43. > :43:46.World Cup specifically. At some point the protests were combined.
:43:47. > :43:53.The police were repressing the first one, the World Cup protest, the
:43:54. > :43:57.other one was completely just staying in a certain area. But the
:43:58. > :44:07.police didn't want the protests to even start. It was insanely violent
:44:08. > :44:11.and... The President, I mean, there is a lot of military hardware out
:44:12. > :44:18.there, there is helicopters, there is friget, a lot of military
:44:19. > :44:22.activity. But presumably the last thing Brazil wants is to be seen to
:44:23. > :44:28.be heavihanded when so many people from the outside world are there. So
:44:29. > :44:32.do you think, one, there will be a harder crackdown, or do you think
:44:33. > :44:51.more people will be out on the streets as a result of anger at the
:44:52. > :44:54.crackdown today as a result of anger at the crackdown today. We didn't
:44:55. > :44:57.know how it was going to develop, and a lot of people got upset at the
:44:58. > :45:01.repression, there is no doubt they will go to the streets again. It is
:45:02. > :45:06.scary, very scary, because compared to the force the police has, the
:45:07. > :45:09.protest is small. It is not a well prepared police, they don't have the
:45:10. > :45:14.intelligence to deal with the protests the right way, so they end
:45:15. > :45:19.up involving people there protesting peacefully. It is really funny that
:45:20. > :45:23.after the protests I went near the stadium to get some images because
:45:24. > :45:28.I'm shooting a documentary, and when I get there there was the march for
:45:29. > :45:34.Jesus Saves, they were there with their signs and that seemed to be
:45:35. > :45:38.OK. Now the other protests couldn't there, I don't see why. A lot of
:45:39. > :45:41.people will be upset and they may come back to the streets, it is very
:45:42. > :45:47.hard to predict. It was scary, I have a friend who was helping with
:45:48. > :45:52.first aid for the people who were hurt and more than 35 people were
:45:53. > :45:56.hurt, two went to the hospital. But is there not an element of hope,
:45:57. > :46:00.from your point of view, that so many people from other parts of the
:46:01. > :46:05.world are in Brazil, and they are seeing the favelas and the poverty,
:46:06. > :46:13.thank in a sense might jolt Brazil into action? I hope so. Yes. I do
:46:14. > :46:18.hope so, but my fear is that people will forget all of this with the
:46:19. > :46:23.game. I hope they don't. And I think the game is still important, despite
:46:24. > :46:28.disagreeing the way it was made, the way they organised it, but I just
:46:29. > :46:32.hope people don't forget the rest. So they can watch the games, yes, of
:46:33. > :46:37.course, and I think they have the right to, but my fear is they will
:46:38. > :46:40.forget the rest. I have to stop you there, thank you very much for
:46:41. > :46:49.joining us. That is all we have time for tonight, from me and Jeremy in
:46:50. > :47:00.A day of contrast today and tomorrow, lots of shine across
:47:01. > :47:04.England and Wales to start the day. Patchy cloud into the afternoon, it
:47:05. > :47:07.will be warm again. Further north rain around, particularly through
:47:08. > :47:12.the morning, a wet start to the day. In the afternoon the rain becomes
:47:13. > :47:14.light and patchy, not much left over in Northern Ireland through the
:47:15. > :47:20.middle of the afternoon. Temperatures 16, 17. The rain easing
:47:21. > :47:21.off from the north and west of Scotland. Keeping it pretty damp for