:00:00. > :00:10.They are young British and fighting for ISIS, who is persuading
:00:11. > :00:19.teenagers from Coventry to fly to Syria and persue Jihad? We ask their
:00:20. > :00:23.parents. TRANSLATION: The Iman of the mosque who lives in our area,
:00:24. > :00:26.organised classes for them after evening prayers, he encouraged them
:00:27. > :00:30.and sent them down this road. The F-word is flying in Polish, we hear
:00:31. > :00:38.what Poland's Foreign Minister thinks of our PM's Europe policy. He
:00:39. > :00:43.BEEPed up, he's not interested, because he believes the stupid
:00:44. > :00:49.propaganda. She was the Afrikaans racist who went to become Nelson
:00:50. > :00:56.Mandela's most trusted confident, she went to see him with stem ma
:00:57. > :01:06.and... Jeremy Clarkson. When he came in he said Mr Mandela have you had a
:01:07. > :01:11.lap dance, a person of that age doesn't know what that is. Good
:01:12. > :01:14.evening, they borrowed money, removed their passports and headed
:01:15. > :01:17.off to find Jihad. Three young teenagers, friends from Coventry
:01:18. > :01:23.have been lured to Syria to fight for ISIS. The boys never told their
:01:24. > :01:28.parents, one father tells us his son was brainwashed by the local Imam.
:01:29. > :01:33.They are believed to be amongst 500 Britons who have joined the conflict
:01:34. > :01:37.in Syria. MI5 tells us the security threat they pose on their return
:01:38. > :01:44.will be a top priority. What makes a kid studying computer science give
:01:45. > :01:52.it all up to risk his life. This film is from BBC Afghan. Three young
:01:53. > :01:57.teenagers, friends from Coventry, they all left home and are now in
:01:58. > :02:07.Syria. Apparently lured in by the militant group ISIS. Their families
:02:08. > :02:17.are in shock. The father of one of the boys, 18-year-old Ali, who is of
:02:18. > :02:22.Afghan origin spoke to us exclusively. He said Ali was
:02:23. > :02:26.planning to study computer science, and last February he asked for his
:02:27. > :02:33.passport. He told his parents it was for university paperwork. He also
:02:34. > :02:37.borrowed ?1,000 for one -- from one of his brothers, saying it was for a
:02:38. > :02:41.computer. In fact it was for a plane ticket. Ali hadn't admitted it to
:02:42. > :03:06.his family, but his father believes he has joined ISIS.
:03:07. > :03:27.What is your biggest fear of what might happen to Ali now he's in
:03:28. > :03:54.Syria? At least two of the three teenagers
:03:55. > :03:59.went to this small local mosque. Their parents believe that it was an
:04:00. > :04:03.Imam here who encouraged their sons to go to Syria. We have just been to
:04:04. > :04:06.the mosque to speak to the Imam, he refused to give us an interview, but
:04:07. > :04:11.he completely denies these allegations. Ali and his two friends
:04:12. > :04:15.set out from Coventry travelling to Birmingham where they then flew to
:04:16. > :04:23.Frankfurt and from there to Turkey. They are now believed to be in
:04:24. > :04:28.Syria, near the city of Aleppo. The police were informed of their
:04:29. > :04:31.absence just after they flew out. It was too late. The father of one of
:04:32. > :04:36.the other teenagers who travelled with Ali told me that family members
:04:37. > :04:42.went to the Turkish Syrian border in the hope of finding the boys. Rashid
:04:43. > :04:47.hasn't told his family much about his activities in Syria, but they
:04:48. > :04:51.are worried he has joined ISIS. They tried to bring him back if possible
:04:52. > :04:59.they would find him somewhere in Turkey or somewhere. But they didn't
:05:00. > :05:03.find him. After 15 or 16 days. They came back, empty handed. That must
:05:04. > :05:10.have been very difficult for you? Yeah, it is also dangerous to go
:05:11. > :05:17.there. And I don't know, maybe the border is dangerous to be there, but
:05:18. > :05:20.any way we went to them. Because my family, my background is not
:05:21. > :05:24.extremist, we don't like them, we hate them. I don't know what
:05:25. > :05:27.happened to him, maybe somebody worked with him. Maybe somebody
:05:28. > :05:37.brainwashed him. Because he was not like that. So who are these three
:05:38. > :05:41.teenagers? Rashid was studying business, recently he became more
:05:42. > :05:43.religious and grew a beard and attending prayers in the mosque
:05:44. > :05:49.regularly. That didn't worry his family. At one time Ali tried to get
:05:50. > :05:56.into modelling, but things changed and he became more religious. The
:05:57. > :06:01.third teenager, Mohammed appeared a normal youngster and then started
:06:02. > :06:05.expressing strong views about Syria, and apparently last month he tweeted
:06:06. > :06:08.saying he had joined ISIS. The three young men are said to be among 500
:06:09. > :06:12.Britons who have joined the conflict in Syria during the last three
:06:13. > :06:16.years. MI5 says the possible threat from those returning is their number
:06:17. > :06:23.one fright priority. But tracking all of them down after they come to
:06:24. > :06:26.the UK will be a difficult task. The families of those boys feel helpless
:06:27. > :06:32.and say it is up to the Government to secure their return. The one hope
:06:33. > :06:38.is the Government. The Government and media has to help us bring them
:06:39. > :06:41.back. That's it. I can't do, as a person, an individual person, I
:06:42. > :07:00.can't do nothing. They are united by grief and say they just want their
:07:01. > :07:02.sons back. If you could speak to Ali now, what
:07:03. > :07:40.would you tell him? That was Ali's father. He believes
:07:41. > :07:45.his son is now fighting Jihad. We're joined by our guests from The Muslim
:07:46. > :07:52.Council of Britain, Lord Carlyle the former reviewer of terrorism in
:07:53. > :07:56.Britain. And a former extremist and expert on radicalisation.
:07:57. > :08:00.I wanted to start with you, these families think their sons have been
:08:01. > :08:05.radicalised by an Imam from the local mosque. What would be your
:08:06. > :08:13.response to that? I think if we have evidence of this then our police and
:08:14. > :08:19.our Security Services have to take action against this individual. I
:08:20. > :08:24.believe that this is a very complex area, I don't believe one single
:08:25. > :08:28.speech can turn someone. The footage showed concern about the young boys
:08:29. > :08:31.growing beards, all my sons, those who are of that age have beards, I
:08:32. > :08:35.have a very long beard. I think we need to be very, very careful and
:08:36. > :08:39.sensitive about how we tackle the whole issue. But this is not about
:08:40. > :08:44.beards and this is not coming from outside, this is the parents who are
:08:45. > :08:47.saying that over a course of months they believe the messages that were
:08:48. > :08:51.coming out from one individual in one mosque was influencing their
:08:52. > :08:55.sons to the point where they took off to fight for their lives? Indeed
:08:56. > :09:01.it is not about beards that is what I'm saying, we don't trivialise this
:09:02. > :09:05.into discussions about beards. These are teenagers, let's look at maybe
:09:06. > :09:09.Shiraz can tell us more about this, what life have these teenagers seen.
:09:10. > :09:13.They have grown up through a decade of wars and fighting on the back of
:09:14. > :09:18.an illegal war in Iraq, the wars in Afghanistan. They have grown through
:09:19. > :09:20.measures of security and county councillor terrorism which are
:09:21. > :09:26.unprecedented. They have gone through a period of demonisation in
:09:27. > :09:30.the media, every single day their faith and their... Does that sound
:09:31. > :09:33.right to you, is that what is at root here, we are going back to the
:09:34. > :09:39.war in Iraq or is this now about a much more localised fight within
:09:40. > :09:44.Iran, within Syria? I agree it is an incredibly complex problem, we have
:09:45. > :09:49.to avoid demonising young Muslim men, particularly as 99. 9%
:09:50. > :09:53.recurring of Muslims in this country are totally opposed to this kind of
:09:54. > :09:57.action. And indeed I think the authorities would confirm that the
:09:58. > :10:01.closest and most important partners in detecting people who might become
:10:02. > :10:05.terrorists and deradicalising them are the Muslim community themselves.
:10:06. > :10:11.Mothers, wives, sisters, do not want their husbands, brothers, sons to
:10:12. > :10:16.become Jihadists and run the risk of being killed in a Civil War. But we
:10:17. > :10:23.have to have a more structured approach to it. The Prevent Policy,
:10:24. > :10:28.that part of counter terrorism focussed on antiradicalisation is
:10:29. > :10:31.working extremely well in some place, Middlesborough, and to a
:10:32. > :10:34.great extent Birmingham, despite recent education problems. But there
:10:35. > :10:37.are other places it is barely functioning at all. And we need to
:10:38. > :10:41.ensure that the funding that the Home Office provides is used to best
:10:42. > :10:46.advantage, and not, by the way, by the police. Is that really right
:10:47. > :10:50.then, it comes down to funding, it comes down to sort of the
:10:51. > :10:54.localisation of places where Prevent is working and it isn't. You know
:10:55. > :10:58.what it is like to have been extremist. Is it that easily
:10:59. > :11:01.stopped? I think the issue now with Prevent and these types of
:11:02. > :11:06.programmes is they were very much focussed in the past to dealing with
:11:07. > :11:10.a kind of civilisational conflict, the idea that the west was at war in
:11:11. > :11:14.Islam, so Prevent was trying to suck out some of the heat and tension
:11:15. > :11:19.people felt around those issues. That narrative is completely
:11:20. > :11:21.changed, this is where I would disagree with the Sheikh. People
:11:22. > :11:26.talking about the conflict in Syria and the conflict in Iraq are not
:11:27. > :11:30.being motivated by the same narratives of the past, they are
:11:31. > :11:32.being motivated now by a sectarian conflict, where they believe they
:11:33. > :11:41.have the opportunity to go in and affect change on the ground and
:11:42. > :11:46.establish a Khalafit. Are there British fighters in Iraq? Not that
:11:47. > :11:50.we know. I was speaking to a British member of ISIS, he says there are no
:11:51. > :11:54.Brits as yet that have crossed over. This is their group, this is their
:11:55. > :11:59.organisation, they are waiting for their Marching orders. -- marching
:12:00. > :12:03.orders. Do you believe it has to come from within the mosques or the
:12:04. > :12:08.Muslim communities or is it work for the police or the legislation? In
:12:09. > :12:12.the past we have seen preachers who have operated, who have radicalised
:12:13. > :12:14.people and sort of inspired them to do things. What is slightly
:12:15. > :12:19.different now about the Syrian conflict is the use of social media.
:12:20. > :12:23.That is the single most important recruitment driver at the moment. In
:12:24. > :12:27.the past what you would have is you would get an Al-Qaeda video that
:12:28. > :12:32.would be union low-directional, and tell people to do things. Now you
:12:33. > :12:35.have hundreds of fighters on the ground giving a live feed on what is
:12:36. > :12:39.happening and they engage in conversation. We see young people
:12:40. > :12:42.reaching out to them saying you are in Syria, just like me, how can I be
:12:43. > :12:45.part of this. It is the individual people who have become empowered to
:12:46. > :12:50.become recruiters in their own right. We have all seen the viral
:12:51. > :12:57.videos preaching hate, I guess the question is where are the viral
:12:58. > :13:02.videos that don't preach hate. Are the voices loud enough saying this
:13:03. > :13:06.is a dumb thing to do? Absolutely, we can't dismiss the fertile ground
:13:07. > :13:09.that is present in the decade or two in which these young people have
:13:10. > :13:14.grown up, which has allowed them to sow the seeds of that anger and
:13:15. > :13:16.hatred. What we need to say is The Muslim Council of Britain is very,
:13:17. > :13:21.very clear with the position of Islam and as British Muslims that
:13:22. > :13:25.this is wrong. To go and involve ourselves in conflict abroad doesn't
:13:26. > :13:29.serve anybody any good. The way you can help the people of Iraq, to help
:13:30. > :13:33.the people of Syria is to remain in this country. Do you think that
:13:34. > :13:37.voice is being heard? No I don't. We do hear it from The Muslim Council
:13:38. > :13:41.of Britain? I don't, I think the counter narrative is weak, if there
:13:42. > :13:44.is a weakness in the Prevent Policy, it is that it does not build a
:13:45. > :13:51.sufficient counter narrative. There is a weakness which I would urge
:13:52. > :13:54.very respectfully upon the Sheikh is that the Muslim communities are
:13:55. > :14:00.dominated by rather older men and there are plenty of young leaders
:14:01. > :14:03.out there, young men and women, brilliant in the professions and
:14:04. > :14:06.business, who would be like to be given the leadership of that
:14:07. > :14:09.community and would be able to present a more convincing counter
:14:10. > :14:12.narrative than we are receiving at the moment. At the end of the day,
:14:13. > :14:19.what we are doing is not only trying to prevent people taking part in
:14:20. > :14:22.heretical, violent extremism, religiously heretical violent
:14:23. > :14:28.extremism, but we are trying to do our duty of protecting it our own
:14:29. > :14:32.country and citizens from violence. But the state cannot tell young
:14:33. > :14:37.Muslim men how to interpret their own religion, it has to come from
:14:38. > :14:41.the newer members and the invigorated members, presumably you
:14:42. > :14:45.agree with that? The state has no business in the interpretation and
:14:46. > :14:48.practice of religion, where I would support the suggestion about the
:14:49. > :14:51.counter narrative is let's strengthen it. Let's work
:14:52. > :14:55.collectively together. If we put this problem at the doors of Imams
:14:56. > :15:01.and mosques and say that is your problem and you deal with it, we
:15:02. > :15:06.won't see any success. Let's see in Coventry we have seen it. Let us
:15:07. > :15:09.work together, collectively, Government agencies, Muslim
:15:10. > :15:13.communities, Imams and wider society. These boys are not Muslim
:15:14. > :15:17.boys, they are British boys, these are our boys who have gone away. It
:15:18. > :15:22.feels like we have been this sort of narrative chat for ten years, a
:15:23. > :15:26.decade almost, and yet it doesn't, it hasn't stopped the next round of
:15:27. > :15:35.fighters going to ISIS? No it wasn't. What we're seeing is the
:15:36. > :15:45.debate has morphed unfortunately. The discourse has shied into the
:15:46. > :15:51.intra-Muslim. The strength of feeling hasn't changed? It has
:15:52. > :15:55.morphed into a new stage. Before the state was talking about what it was
:15:56. > :15:59.doing, and telling Muslims its policies weren't weighted against
:16:00. > :16:02.them for example. Now you have this very dynamic internal situation in
:16:03. > :16:07.Syria and Iraq that we don't really have a stake in, the Government has
:16:08. > :16:11.to find smarter ways. One thing is could do is highlight the fact of
:16:12. > :16:14.all the British deaths in Syria, only one came from a fighter
:16:15. > :16:18.fighting against the regime, all the rest game from the infighting. They
:16:19. > :16:23.are going through to fight in gangs against one another, they are not
:16:24. > :16:28.fighting the regime. . Thank you for coming in.
:16:29. > :16:32.This was the day the three jeers journalists imprisoned in the Cairo
:16:33. > :16:36.jail for six months expected to walk free. Instead they were met with
:16:37. > :16:41.seven-year prison sentences, one longer, a stark reminder of the
:16:42. > :16:47.incomprehensible Egyptian legal system and its attempts to censor
:16:48. > :16:57.press freedom. They were charged with attempting to oust the Muslim
:16:58. > :17:04.Brotherhood. Jeers has called the sentences outrageously, Al-Jazeera
:17:05. > :17:08.has called the sentences outrageous. They expected to be freed through
:17:09. > :17:13.lack of evidence. When the sentences were read out the court erupted.
:17:14. > :17:19.Peter Greste punched the bars in frustration, the families received
:17:20. > :17:24.the news dumb founded in their homes. Peter Greste and five other
:17:25. > :17:32.defendants present, my God, my God, sorry. That's crazy. The charges
:17:33. > :17:36.against them are helping a terrorist group in spreading false news,
:17:37. > :17:39.spurious charges, their news organisation claimed, politically
:17:40. > :17:43.and economically motivated. The British PM and the US Secretary of
:17:44. > :17:50.State have been quick to condemn the verdicts and their sentences.
:17:51. > :17:56.It is a chilling and draconian sentence. You know it is deeply
:17:57. > :18:01.disturbing to see in the midst of Egypt's transition. It simply cannot
:18:02. > :18:06.stand if Egypt is going to be able to move forward in the way that
:18:07. > :18:10.Egypt needs to move forward. What is still unclear is how quickly an
:18:11. > :18:14.appeal process can begin and whether the international voices of
:18:15. > :18:20.condemnation are prepared to add actions to their words. A little
:18:21. > :18:24.while ago I spoke to Peter Greste's brother, Michael, who was in court
:18:25. > :18:27.today. What did you go through when you
:18:28. > :18:32.heard that verdict being handed down? I was just stunned, to begin
:18:33. > :18:38.with. I couldn't believe what I just heard, I still have difficulty in
:18:39. > :18:41.comprehending it all. It is just a totally baffling and utterly
:18:42. > :18:45.disappointing and deflating decision. And you had to make the
:18:46. > :18:51.phone call to your parents back home. Yeah, there was a very tough
:18:52. > :18:55.call to make. Obviously my parents are extremely distressed and upset
:18:56. > :19:01.by the decision as well. But we will have to pick ourselves up and
:19:02. > :19:06.continue to fight. What do you think Peter's response will be to this
:19:07. > :19:10.now? Look it is very hard to say, quite often we go into the prison
:19:11. > :19:14.after a court appearance and what seems like a bit of a setback and
:19:15. > :19:21.think that we have to go and pick him up, but only to find that he's
:19:22. > :19:25.the one who is ending up picking us up. He's extremely strong in
:19:26. > :19:30.character and very resolved. Can you describe the conditions he's in at
:19:31. > :19:35.the moment, how is he living? They are quite depressing, he shares a
:19:36. > :19:39.cell with his two other colleagues. The cell is three by four metres in
:19:40. > :19:44.area. There is a very small opening in the door to their cell and then
:19:45. > :19:49.there's another very small window which is very high up on the wall.
:19:50. > :19:52.They don't receive any direct sunlight at this time of year. And
:19:53. > :19:58.they are locked away in that cell for 23 hours of the day. That's six
:19:59. > :20:03.days a week, and on Friday they are locked away for the whole day. So
:20:04. > :20:07.they are permitted reading material and newspapers but any other form of
:20:08. > :20:12.entertainment is refused. I tried to take a deck of cards in with me on a
:20:13. > :20:20.visit and that was just handed straight back to me and refused. The
:20:21. > :20:24.boys tried to fashion a rudimentry homemade sort of back gammon board
:20:25. > :20:29.but that was taken off them. Extremely hard and oppressive
:20:30. > :20:35.conditions. Do you think that US money is able to open doors now. We
:20:36. > :20:38.know some $700 million have come in through security and military
:20:39. > :20:44.assistance, is this the route that you think Egypt will take to release
:20:45. > :20:51.them? It is very difficult to identify, but obviously you know if
:20:52. > :21:00.they have any form of diplomatic pressure and encouragement to you
:21:01. > :21:06.know produce a just and fair result is to be commended and encouraged.
:21:07. > :21:11.We don't have any control over those decisions, but certainly diplomacy
:21:12. > :21:17.is another avenue that we would strongly you know appreciate and
:21:18. > :21:23.condone. Do you feel that the international community has been as
:21:24. > :21:26.supportive as they can over this? It is difficult to assess, but I
:21:27. > :21:37.certainly think after today's decision there has been a very
:21:38. > :21:41.strong and huge backlash from the international community and that is
:21:42. > :21:43.encouraging signs. What is your final message to the Egyptian
:21:44. > :21:47.Government tonight? I would like them to think about and have a look
:21:48. > :21:52.at the decision that has been made and if they are truly on the path to
:21:53. > :21:57.democracy then they will review the decision and overturn it. And you
:21:58. > :22:04.know free these journalist who is are completely innocent and have no
:22:05. > :22:11.guilt whatsoever towards the charges that they faced. Thank you very
:22:12. > :22:26.much, thank you. I'm joined now from Doha by the British journalist from
:22:27. > :22:30.all mal areas year a, Al-Jazeera. I wonder if this has made you think
:22:31. > :22:36.twice about reporting as a journalist? Not at all. I have been
:22:37. > :22:41.a reporter for 25 years, 12 of those with Channel 4 News in the UK. And
:22:42. > :22:44.you know it is kind of what I always wanted to do for a living and I
:22:45. > :22:51.probably will die still doing this job. This is a horrendous setback
:22:52. > :22:59.for all of us involved in this. For all of Al Jazeera now, who are
:23:00. > :23:02.looking to the guys in prison and wondering how they can pick
:23:03. > :23:09.themselves up and stay positive and keep fighting this decision by the
:23:10. > :23:13.Egyptian and to get them out. And we are not going to stop being
:23:14. > :23:16.journalists, we may not be able to report from Cairo, but we will
:23:17. > :23:19.certainly try to report what is going on in Egypt still. One of the
:23:20. > :23:29.most insidious responses to something like this is often
:23:30. > :23:33.self-censorship, I wonder inside Al Jazeera, there has been a change or
:23:34. > :23:39.shift, is there in the way you are reporting news or willing to report
:23:40. > :23:44.news? Not at all. I mean most of my colleagues here are English, a lot
:23:45. > :23:51.of them I would say are former BBC journalists, former ITN, former ABC,
:23:52. > :23:55.NBC journalists. We all come from different backgrounds from much of
:23:56. > :24:07.the western media. And we all, we come toal jazz AlJazeera with
:24:08. > :24:11.different attitude, we won't censor ourselves, we work in countries all
:24:12. > :24:15.over the world and have different bureaus all over the world. A lot of
:24:16. > :24:20.the time we are facing different environments. I covered the whole
:24:21. > :24:27.Libyan revolution, and had been in and out of Syria in a lot of years
:24:28. > :24:31.in different conflict zones we don't self-censorship our selves in that
:24:32. > :24:36.respect and never will. Michael hinted today the intnational
:24:37. > :24:40.community had rallied but possibly not enough beforehand. I wonder if
:24:41. > :24:47.you felt that there wasn't enough strength of feeling before today
:24:48. > :24:51.happened for your colleagues? No, I wouldn't say that, I have been all
:24:52. > :24:55.over, trying to keep this campaign going, I have been to DC to talk to
:24:56. > :24:59.the state department, I have been in the UK Foreign Office, we have been
:25:00. > :25:02.talking to all the different media channels across the world. They have
:25:03. > :25:07.done everything they can think of to try to put pressure on the Egyptian
:25:08. > :25:11.Government. The one thing possibly I would say is we all started to
:25:12. > :25:19.believe the best was going to happen today. From when the Al Jazeera
:25:20. > :25:25.Arabic journalist was released last week after being on hunger strike,
:25:26. > :25:28.we thought maybe Egypt's tide had turned, he hadn't charges against
:25:29. > :25:32.him and the authorities released him. Maybe they were recognising the
:25:33. > :25:39.guys that we had in prison here would also be released because all
:25:40. > :25:43.they were doing is their jobs as. We know there is six days to appeal,
:25:44. > :25:48.many thanks for that. She had a ring side seat throughout
:25:49. > :25:58.the presidential lifetime of one of the world's greatest statesmen ever
:25:59. > :26:01.Zelda L e Grange became his most trusted confidant, a self-confessed
:26:02. > :26:09.racist who voted in favour of apartheid. She described Mandela's
:26:10. > :26:15.views on schtum had a, Thatcher and Jeremy Clarkson, I asked her how her
:26:16. > :26:19.views had changed. I was a racist and happily lived apartheid and
:26:20. > :26:24.happily did so up to the age of 23. Because it was completely acceptable
:26:25. > :26:28.in my environment to live apartheid. Was there ever a voice in your head
:26:29. > :26:32.at that time questioning what you had been brought up to believe? Up
:26:33. > :26:38.to the age of 23 nothing, not one single question. I voted against the
:26:39. > :26:46.abolishment of apartheid in our last referendum in South Africa, that's
:26:47. > :26:51.how strongly I felt to protect the white supremacy in South Africa.
:26:52. > :26:55.Fast forward and you were working in the administrative department of the
:26:56. > :27:01.President's office. You met him and you had an urge to apologise? Yes,
:27:02. > :27:07.it is the strangest feeling and set of emotions that you can experience,
:27:08. > :27:16.suddenly the man I feared my entire life, that I thought was my enemy
:27:17. > :27:20.extends a hand to me, and speaks to me in my home language. I have to
:27:21. > :27:24.ask him to repeat himself because I was so shocked I didn't realise he
:27:25. > :27:28.was speaking to me in Afrikaans, my own language. Immediately you go
:27:29. > :27:32.into shock. Then I could see he was visibly old, I could see the
:27:33. > :27:36.kindness in his eyes and the sincerity of his smile. I was just
:27:37. > :27:43.overcome by emotion, I was crying, I was really full on sobbing. You feel
:27:44. > :27:47.sonsable responsible and I wanted to apologise immediately. Why didn't
:27:48. > :27:50.you? First of all he didn't give me a chance, he was asking too many
:27:51. > :27:55.questions. Secondly he could see that I was crying, so I think that
:27:56. > :28:00.may have been an indication to him that I felt sorry, you know. I felt
:28:01. > :28:06.I had remorse. Do you think there was a guilt element as well, do you
:28:07. > :28:11.think that was why? From my side or his side, from my side. I think at
:28:12. > :28:16.first definitely but after a while it was really I poured my heart and
:28:17. > :28:19.soul into supporting this man. Not because I felt guilty but really
:28:20. > :28:23.because I started adoring him, because he was really interested in
:28:24. > :28:28.me, he gave me the opportunity of a lifetime. So you have to reciprocate
:28:29. > :28:33.and I did so with loyalty. It sounds like you were a bit in love with
:28:34. > :28:39.him? As a grandfather figure, almost, maybe, yes. I was never
:28:40. > :28:43.blind to his mistakes. We had difficult times. You know having
:28:44. > :28:47.different opinions about things. He knew I was very niave, I was stupid
:28:48. > :28:53.and young, and not schooled really for that job. But he kind of took me
:28:54. > :29:05.and moulded me. You were important to him, as an Afrikaner. It was
:29:06. > :29:08.important to show the world he was representative of all minority
:29:09. > :29:14.groups even those who represented the apartheid Government. He didn't
:29:15. > :29:19.only allay fears with the Afrikaneres and the people who
:29:20. > :29:23.represented those people but the rest of the world. Once in office
:29:24. > :29:27.the world stateman there was a steady stream of celebrities who
:29:28. > :29:35.would come paying homage, whatever, what did you make of the way people
:29:36. > :29:39.treated him, and the questions they asked. You were a fly-on-the-wall?
:29:40. > :29:43.He had a special way of attracting a particular kind of person. And he
:29:44. > :29:47.became friends with certain people over the years, from the
:29:48. > :29:54.celebrities, and the heads of state. Because of certain qualities in
:29:55. > :30:01.those mostly respect. You also relate to people and you judge
:30:02. > :30:05.people based on how they treat him. If it was respectful I liked people
:30:06. > :30:12.who were respectful towards him. And if it wasn't. You cite the Jeremy
:30:13. > :30:16.Clarkson moment? I think maybe that was just a clash of personalities
:30:17. > :30:21.maybe. And Jeremy not understanding what to expect of a person of over
:30:22. > :30:26.90 years old. Talk us through what happened, I have only heard a very
:30:27. > :30:31.sketchy explanation for what happened, but you can tell? First of
:30:32. > :30:35.all when Jeremy walked in he said oh Mr Mandela have you ever had a lap
:30:36. > :30:40.dance. Now a person of that age doesn't really know what a lap dance
:30:41. > :30:46.is, I don't know if people over 90 know what lap dance is, but I didn't
:30:47. > :30:50.expect him to know and he appeared confused Mr Mandela and he looked at
:30:51. > :30:54.me expecting me to rescue him in a way and I felt sorry for him of
:30:55. > :31:00.course. I said to him no you don't have to answer that. What was Mr
:31:01. > :31:06.Mandela's sense of where South Africa was heading after him z he
:31:07. > :31:14.talk to you about the rule of Mbeki or stem ma? -- Zuma. He withdrew
:31:15. > :31:18.from politics, and he wasn't as involved as he wanted to be. He
:31:19. > :31:22.wanted to focus more on his family in his free time. He wasn't
:31:23. > :31:27.interested in politics any longer. Not interested or disappointed? I
:31:28. > :31:31.think he felt he did his duty and he couldn't do anything else. The one
:31:32. > :31:38.thing he couldn't stand was dishonesty, and South Africa has a
:31:39. > :31:42.problem right now with corruption. If Mr Mandela was in power and there
:31:43. > :31:48.was corruption, he would deal with it immediately. The implication that
:31:49. > :31:53.those that came after him didn't live up to that? They need to go
:31:54. > :32:00.back to what people sacrificed their lives for. This is my opinion, this
:32:01. > :32:03.is what Nelson Mandela, these people they sacrificed their lives for the
:32:04. > :32:11.freedom of South Africans. We need to go back to those ideals. Thank
:32:12. > :32:15.you. The F-word in Polish is something a few more of us may be
:32:16. > :32:20.familiar with tonight. It was used extensively by their Foreign
:32:21. > :32:24.Minister to describe David Cameron's incompetence in Europe. He didn't,
:32:25. > :32:28.needless to say realise his conversation with his former Finance
:32:29. > :32:32.Minister was being recorded, but the content, now released to a Polish
:32:33. > :32:38.magazine about previous negotiations some months back are still pretty
:32:39. > :32:43.devastating. David Cameron has this evening tweeted of a full and frank
:32:44. > :32:46.conversation on the commission President. But there is a growing
:32:47. > :32:50.sense in many quarters that the Polish minister could well be on the
:32:51. > :33:00.money. I warn you if you speak Polish the following report contains
:33:01. > :33:04.the original audio. Oxford man, Bullingdon Club member, a
:33:05. > :33:09.distinguished minister who, until at least recently has been favourite to
:33:10. > :33:13.succeed Baroness Ashton as Europe's Foreign Policy Chief. But in truth,
:33:14. > :33:19.he's never been a fan of David Cameron's Europe policy. It is
:33:20. > :33:26.difficult to lead a club which you are considering whether to stay in
:33:27. > :33:30.or leave. So, yes, in that since you have weakened your hand. Now comes
:33:31. > :33:36.something much harder to hear for the British Government. Bugged
:33:37. > :33:42.conversations between Mr Sikorski and former Finance Minister, leaked
:33:43. > :33:46.to a Polish news magazine, who have shared some of the material with
:33:47. > :33:52.Newsnight. The polls give Mr Cameron both verbals -- the Poles give Mr
:33:53. > :33:56.Cameron both verbal barrels. TRANSLATION: He thinks he can go,
:33:57. > :34:04.renegotiate and come back, no Polish Government can agree with that, only
:34:05. > :34:09.in exchange for a mountain of gold. TRANSLATION: It is thought through
:34:10. > :34:12.move his incompetence in European affairs, remember he locked up the
:34:13. > :34:15.fiscal part, he locked it up, simple as that, because he's not
:34:16. > :34:18.interested, because he doesn't get it because he believes in this
:34:19. > :34:25.stupid prop beganed DACHLT he stupidly tries to manipulate the
:34:26. > :34:36.system. Tonight he condemned the leak as a crime. Demned
:34:37. > :34:42.TRANSLATION: The Government was attacked by an organised criminal
:34:43. > :34:45.group, we hope to gain the identity of the group members and first of
:34:46. > :34:49.all their leaders. And that they will be identified and obviously
:34:50. > :34:54.punished. But for the Prime Minister who played host today to outgoing
:34:55. > :34:57.President of the European Council, the leaks could be highly
:34:58. > :35:03.embarrassing showing that other Europeans think he is attempting to
:35:04. > :35:07.change Europe before a referendum will fail. But for the Prime
:35:08. > :35:10.Minister, who played host today to the outgoing President of the
:35:11. > :35:14.European Council, the leaks could be highly embarrassing. Showing that
:35:15. > :35:26.other Europeans think his attempts to change Europe before holding a
:35:27. > :35:28.referendum will fail. TRANSLATION: I think paradoxically you know what
:35:29. > :35:32.the consequences will be for us. TRANSLATION: Yes. TRANSLATION: Not
:35:33. > :35:38.particularly good for us, generally bad for us, because we want Great
:35:39. > :35:44.Britain to stay in. I think that it will be like this, he will lose this
:35:45. > :35:49.election, Great Britain leaves. The leak comes at a perilous moment for
:35:50. > :35:53.the Prime Minister, whose unsuccessful attempt to block the
:35:54. > :35:55.candidacy of Jean-Claude Juncker as the next President of the European
:35:56. > :35:59.Commission is causing tensions with Germany. The Polish tape scandal
:36:00. > :36:06.comes at a particularly difficult time for Mr Cameron's Europe policy.
:36:07. > :36:10.Germany is hardening its support for Mr Juncker. We have been told that
:36:11. > :36:16.the Germans would regard any attempt by Britain to block his appointment
:36:17. > :36:22.as a betrayal of rules agreed by all European countries seven years ago
:36:23. > :36:27.with the Lisbon Treaty. The risks for Mr Cameron now are many, for
:36:28. > :36:32.having invested so much prestige in stopping Mr Juncker, if he fails it
:36:33. > :36:38.will empower the euro-sceptics. And those who share the private view of
:36:39. > :36:43.his abilities expressed by the Polish Foreign Minister.
:36:44. > :36:50.With me I have the chairman of Business for New Europe. And Peter
:36:51. > :36:57.Liley, touted as a possible choice for the UK commissioner. . When you
:36:58. > :37:04.have one of Cameron's mates talking like this, you kind of wonder who
:37:05. > :37:07.needs enemies? He seemed to be in a rather foul-mouthed and thoughtless
:37:08. > :37:12.mood, it brought discredit on him and absolutely no discredit to the
:37:13. > :37:18.Prime Minister. Except what he was saying was "incompetence". He used
:37:19. > :37:23.lots of foul words and some other insults. But they discredit him by
:37:24. > :37:27.the very use. What he did say more rationally when he got on to that is
:37:28. > :37:30.it was not in Poland's interest that Britain should leave Europe. I take
:37:31. > :37:35.it from that they will be prepared to make concessions to work hard, to
:37:36. > :37:42.keep us in, and I hope they do. Leave the obscenities aside and he
:37:43. > :37:48.was talking about Cameron losing the next election, being driven by
:37:49. > :37:50.stupid propaganda. He used the word "election", everything clearly
:37:51. > :37:54.referring to the referendum. He talked about the problems with the
:37:55. > :37:58.fiscal pact. Here is somebody who clearly does not believe's on the
:37:59. > :38:02.right trajectory with what he's fighting for, whether or not he used
:38:03. > :38:07.swear words? He also said it would not be in Poland's interest that
:38:08. > :38:09.Britain leaves. I heard that. That I think means that we have a strong
:38:10. > :38:14.position. It is not in anyone's interest in Europe that we leave. If
:38:15. > :38:17.they want to keep us in, then they should reach accommodations. That is
:38:18. > :38:21.how Europe ought to work. It shouldn't be take it or leave it,
:38:22. > :38:25.let's ignore Britain's interest and everything. When all three parties
:38:26. > :38:30.in Britain take the same view of Mr Juncker, and the manner in which he
:38:31. > :38:33.is being foisted upon us, it is unwise, I would have thought, for
:38:34. > :38:37.our friends and colleagues in Europe to ignore are. Just because you are
:38:38. > :38:42.isolated doesn't mean you are wrong? No it doesn't, to be fair to the
:38:43. > :38:45.Prime Minister there is no question that Angela Merkel was on his side
:38:46. > :38:49.at the beginning of this. She faces a backlash from her own MPs in
:38:50. > :38:52.parliament who were absolutely adamant that Juncker should be, and
:38:53. > :39:00.she folded and went with them. Of course it is a salutary warning that
:39:01. > :39:05.we can't put all our eggs in the German basket, we have to build out
:39:06. > :39:09.and build consensus. He should have chosen different language or broken
:39:10. > :39:14.with her? You can't completely rely on one person, however even if it is
:39:15. > :39:17.the most powerful person in Europe to get what you want. You have to
:39:18. > :39:22.build allies right across. Which is precisely what I was trying to do. I
:39:23. > :39:27.think that the Polish President said that was right, Britain is couching
:39:28. > :39:31.its policies in terms of pan-European, not just in terms of
:39:32. > :39:35.concessions, if we do that we will be sorely disappointed. Shouldn't he
:39:36. > :39:39.have stuck his neck out, wasn't there a more diplomatic way of doing
:39:40. > :39:43.this than clearly holding a position he has now lost? You don't win
:39:44. > :39:48.anything. I had to negotiate for ten years with colleagues in Europe, we
:39:49. > :39:51.never won if we didn't put our view forcefully and courteously and
:39:52. > :39:56.winning as many allies across the world which is David Cameron is
:39:57. > :40:00.doing. Are you suggesting every time you are not certain you could win
:40:01. > :40:04.you should give in without a fight. You shouldn't give in, but you have
:40:05. > :40:07.to realise you have lost this one, there is no point in having a vote
:40:08. > :40:11.and finding you are just with Oban in Hungary, a pretty illiberal
:40:12. > :40:15.country as it is. You don't want to be with that regime. You want to
:40:16. > :40:18.fight for the reform agenda right now and try to get serious
:40:19. > :40:21.concessions in terms of reform, rather than fighting an old battle
:40:22. > :40:25.that has been lost. I guess the deal you will be looking at is one
:40:26. > :40:28.possibly that will save face for Cameron, a good commissioner
:40:29. > :40:32.position, do you know who is in the ring for that. Can I ask you whether
:40:33. > :40:37.you have put your name into the ring or whether you would accept the job?
:40:38. > :40:41.It is not up to me to put my name in the rin if I was offered it I would
:40:42. > :40:45.accept it. Have you talked to anyone about it? I have talk to to people
:40:46. > :40:48.but I haven't -- talked to people but I haven't been offered it and
:40:49. > :40:52.they haven't come and talked to me. From the top end of Government? No,
:40:53. > :40:56.so I probably won't be it. But it is a terribly important job, it is
:40:57. > :41:01.important that we have someone with the right qualifications, who is not
:41:02. > :41:08.going to go native as soon as they get the job and starting working for
:41:09. > :41:15.a federal Europe but for the sort of Europe that Britain wants. And
:41:16. > :41:19.someone who puts arguments cogently and forcefully within a democracy.
:41:20. > :41:21.Do you think the barricades are up against whoever takes on that role,
:41:22. > :41:29.do you think there is negotiation to be done. What can they win in that
:41:30. > :41:35.role? I talk to ambassadors to a country quite close to us, he said
:41:36. > :41:38.unfortunately we don't do consolation prizes in this game. It
:41:39. > :41:41.will be tough. What I would add to what Peter said, you need somebody
:41:42. > :41:44.with those qualities but who is actually willing to make allies and
:41:45. > :41:47.actually fight for the corner in terms of fighting for what's
:41:48. > :41:51.possible and not just fighting battles that look good back here,
:41:52. > :42:04.but actually are achievable in Europe. Thank you both very much.
:42:05. > :42:08.The second most highly paid athlete in the world has shown her rise on
:42:09. > :42:14.the tennis stage. She graced Centre Court earlier today, in her only
:42:15. > :42:19.television interslew she talked -- interview, she talked ahead of
:42:20. > :42:23.Wimbledon. The most successful tennis player in Asian history.
:42:24. > :42:33.She's the face of the Chinese game. Today she began her Wimbledon
:42:34. > :42:35.campaign. She is fresh from winning the Australian Open, the second
:42:36. > :42:39.Grand Slam of her career. The world number two may have passed you by,
:42:40. > :42:45.but she's huge in China. Thanks to the TV close-ups so is her husband.
:42:46. > :42:50.My husband is famous in China! She may like to repeat a joke but she's
:42:51. > :42:56.witty for a sports star. I think I have to tell the truth. My husband
:42:57. > :43:04.is more famous than me, no really, every time if I was working ing or
:43:05. > :43:15.walking with my friend, nobody sees me, if I was walking with him they
:43:16. > :43:21.are like this is Li Na's husband! Li Na is the second-highest female paid
:43:22. > :43:24.athlete in the world, thanks to a string of endorsements from
:43:25. > :43:30.companies who see her as their ticket to the increasingly lucrative
:43:31. > :43:34.Chinese market. Such is our power she's the only player with a Nike
:43:35. > :43:38.deal who can wear other sponsors on her clothes. She has helped
:43:39. > :43:41.transform the Chinese tennis scene too, when she started out hardly
:43:42. > :43:47.anybody played, now 15 million people do. The all England lawn
:43:48. > :43:50.tennis club is hoping to use this Wimbledon tournament to lure more of
:43:51. > :43:54.China's wealthy middle-class to a sport that is still not as popular
:43:55. > :44:00.as ping pong. How many people are playing in China? A lot. Only in
:44:01. > :44:04.Beijing, one city they have over 3,000 tennis courts. But always
:44:05. > :44:08.fully booked, if you want to play you have to book in before. Is it a
:44:09. > :44:12.massive transformation. Your parents I think when you started and the
:44:13. > :44:18.coach said she should play tennis, they hadn't even heard of it? They
:44:19. > :44:23.had never heard about tennis, what is tennis? Turns out tennis was the
:44:24. > :44:30.game that brought Li Na $23 million so far, but it cost her. In brutal
:44:31. > :44:38.state-run sports schools with constantly blistered palms because
:44:39. > :44:44.there was no child-sized racquets, and knees, aged 14 she was not told
:44:45. > :44:49.of her father's death for several days because she was playing a
:44:50. > :44:53.tournament. She was also injected with steroids. You were never
:44:54. > :44:59.praised you were always playing when you look back what do you see? If I
:45:00. > :45:04.look back I think bravo for young Li Na because you never gave up, you
:45:05. > :45:09.just continued to do that, so that is why make me famous right now. And
:45:10. > :45:15.yet it was a bad experience at the time? This is life, you cannot have
:45:16. > :45:21.the nice day like every day. The young Li Na was repeatedly called
:45:22. > :45:25.stupid and pig by one coach. When she coached me in ten years she
:45:26. > :45:32.never said I was good. She never praised you. So I was feeling a
:45:33. > :45:36.little bit hurt in my heart. That is why after I think last year or the
:45:37. > :45:45.year before I was coming back, talked to her again and I say hey,
:45:46. > :45:50.look you hurt me when I was young. Can I ask, there was a video doing
:45:51. > :45:54.the rounds from a 2001 national championship, did you see that where
:45:55. > :45:59.you got, it looked like you were being slapped by the person giving
:46:00. > :46:06.the medal? I think this is making a joke, it was not a slap. It wasn't a
:46:07. > :46:11.slap? No. That video of her winning only bronze went viral in China
:46:12. > :46:15.where she has 23 million followers on the Twitter equivalent. She's
:46:16. > :46:20.criticised at home for not appearing grateful enough to the Chinese
:46:21. > :46:24.state. She was cautious when I asked her was she free about writing
:46:25. > :46:29.anything on social media. Before I put anything on I have to think is
:46:30. > :46:39.this right or not. I worry if I send the wrong message, the people will
:46:40. > :46:42.wrongly use it. The right news is at 32 she's playing her best tennis in
:46:43. > :46:46.a career that has mirrored the changes in China. The tennis scene
:46:47. > :46:51.has liberalised economically like the country and she no longer has to
:46:52. > :46:56.give 65% of her earning to the state. If she does win Wimbledon she
:46:57. > :47:04.still has to hand over a tenth to the tennis federation back home.
:47:05. > :47:11.That's all we have time for. Good night from all of us here.