:00:12. > :00:18.dropped by Syria as the country's future looks more bleak, was our
:00:19. > :00:22.past involvement in 2003 a mistake. In retrospect yeah, I'm not seeking
:00:23. > :00:25.to evade or avoid my responsibilities for having made
:00:26. > :00:31.that decision. The Foreign Secretary at the time tell uses us we -- tells
:00:32. > :00:39.us we got it wrong. We are live in Baghdad.. The Iraqi Prime Minister
:00:40. > :00:44.tells us he welcomes the Syrian air strikes as he struggles to hold it
:00:45. > :00:47.together. What have the license fee and this posh house in the country
:00:48. > :00:54.got in common. More than you might think. The decades of Jimmy Savile's
:00:55. > :00:58.de-Paris Match vow are revealed in an official inquiry. We will ask how
:00:59. > :01:09.he was able to get away with it for so long. Growing up I was a soccer
:01:10. > :01:12.fan, I'm enjoying being an American. They may have lost to Germany but
:01:13. > :01:25.they have done better than England. Is it time to get behind America's
:01:26. > :01:29.bid for World Cup glory. ?TRANSMIT The Iraqi Prime Minister said thank
:01:30. > :01:35.you for bombs that dropped on his country today, such is the dessprat
:01:36. > :01:38.state of affairs that he welcomed President Assad's Syrian plane that
:01:39. > :01:43.is struck on insurgents on Iraq's borders, and he has ordered his own
:01:44. > :01:47.fighter planes to help from Russia. But when the Foreign Secretary,
:01:48. > :01:50.William Hague, met with Nouri Al-Maliki today, he urged him and
:01:51. > :02:01.leaders from every part of Iraq, Sunni and Shia, to unite to stop a
:02:02. > :02:07.descent into chaos. William Hague said Iraq faced an existential
:02:08. > :02:11.threat, and he said there could only be a political solution to this
:02:12. > :02:14.crisis. We heard similar words earlier this week from John Kerry.
:02:15. > :02:17.We have heard words from Iraqi politician, including the Prime
:02:18. > :02:21.Minister, about forming an inclozeive new Government. But if
:02:22. > :02:24.you look at what's happening on the ground, those words feel very much
:02:25. > :02:28.like just that. Hollow words. If you look at Iraqi television at the
:02:29. > :02:34.moment, hours and hours of footage of young men, volunteering to join
:02:35. > :02:40.militias, brandishing guns, going off to fight. If you speak to
:02:41. > :02:44.Sunnis, many say they feel frozen out of stake in this country and in
:02:45. > :02:48.the places where ISIS is in control, many in the north and west, many
:02:49. > :02:53.Sunnis are supporting that group rather than their own Government.
:02:54. > :02:57.Clashes and skirmishes are still going on, mainly again in the north
:02:58. > :03:01.and west, which is quite some way away from where I am in Baghdad.
:03:02. > :03:15.Perhaps because of that distance in the capital itself there is a sense
:03:16. > :03:21.of uneasy calm. In a city used to everyday violence a sudden spell of
:03:22. > :03:23.calm is not necessarily good news. In Baghdad these past few weeks
:03:24. > :03:31.there have been fewer bombings than usual. But Iraq is struggling to
:03:32. > :03:39.hold itself together and the capital feels like an uncertain place.
:03:40. > :03:44.Baghdad feels weirdly quiet, the streets look almost deserted
:03:45. > :03:47.compared to what they usually are, that is because many people are
:03:48. > :03:51.leaving town. Some have gone up north to fight against ISIS, but
:03:52. > :03:56.others have been telling us that they are leaving town simply because
:03:57. > :04:01.they are scared to stay. The region's geopolitical alliances are
:04:02. > :04:06.morphing. On Tuesday, an air strike just inside Iraq's borders was
:04:07. > :04:10.attributed to the Syrian air force. Until recently Iraq accused Syria of
:04:11. > :04:14.stoking unrest in the desert heartland that straddles the two
:04:15. > :04:24.countries. Now that area has become an embryonic kalafat, led by ISIS.
:04:25. > :04:29.In an interview today, Nouri Al-Maliki said he and President
:04:30. > :04:34.Assad, both leading Shia Government, share a common enemy. TRANSLATION:
:04:35. > :04:37.Syrian jets struck an area inside the Syrian side of the border. There
:04:38. > :04:41.was no co-ordination involved, but we welcome this action. We actually
:04:42. > :04:47.welcome any Syrian strike against ISIS because this group targets both
:04:48. > :04:54.Iraq and Syria. So we welcome any Syrian strike against ISIS as we
:04:55. > :05:02.welcome any Iraqi strike against ISIS. This bakery in a predominantly
:05:03. > :05:08.Sunni district of Baghdad, prides itself on the fact it employs people
:05:09. > :05:13.across the sectarian divide. Some Sunni workers have taken fright,
:05:14. > :05:19.preferring to return to areas with ISIS rather than take their chances
:05:20. > :05:22.in Baghdad. TRANSLATION: People are detained every day, if a group of
:05:23. > :05:28.young guys is walking on the streets, they will be arrested. The
:05:29. > :05:32.security forces treat them badly, pushing and beating them. He says
:05:33. > :05:45.years of what he sees as devisive rule by Nouri Al-Maliki's Government
:05:46. > :05:49.is to blame for the current crisis. TRANSLATION: All this is happening
:05:50. > :05:54.because of the behaviour of the security force, people are treated
:05:55. > :06:01.unjustly, thousands are in prison and it keeps on happening. This
:06:02. > :06:04.sense of fear and alienation has been key to the success of ISIS,
:06:05. > :06:09.without the support of local Sunni tribes they would struggle to hold
:06:10. > :06:13.the territory they have captured, and their rapid advance towards
:06:14. > :06:22.Baghdad has prompted a show of force from the Shia community.
:06:23. > :06:29.Militia groups have been attracting thousands of new recruits. In Sadr
:06:30. > :06:37.City on Saturday the army was on parade. Followers of the cleric Sadr
:06:38. > :06:40.say they will only protect religionious shrines. Others have
:06:41. > :06:43.been directly involved in fighting againsties circumstance some receive
:06:44. > :06:52.support from Iran, not all support the Mall mal-Government. -- Nouri
:06:53. > :06:55.Al-Maliki's Government. TRANSLATION: We have our own leader, we don't
:06:56. > :07:04.follow anyone else, our leader is clear in what he says, if he says
:07:05. > :07:10.march we march, we are under the command of Al-Sadr. ISIS is a
:07:11. > :07:16.regional and international problem, Saudi rainia and Qatar and other
:07:17. > :07:22.occupying forces have allowed this group to enter Iraq through Syria.
:07:23. > :07:30.There is an air of unreality about the playground on the banks of the
:07:31. > :07:34.Tigris. Most of the children will be born after the invasion, memories of
:07:35. > :07:39.the sectarian Civil War that followed are still Treasury. The
:07:40. > :07:43.return of the militias is making many uneasy. ISIS is carving out an
:07:44. > :07:51.empire, its power now stretches all the way from the banks of the river
:07:52. > :07:55.Tig risks s in Iraq, west to the -- Tigris in Iraq and west. It is not
:07:56. > :08:01.clear how long it will hold this vast swathe of territory, but it is
:08:02. > :08:05.changing the geopolitical calculus. Clearly the Iraqi military needs
:08:06. > :08:08.help to defeat ISIS, the militias are part of the strategy, so is
:08:09. > :08:13.Iran, the west is still trying to figure out what to do. Meanwhile the
:08:14. > :08:21.frontiers of the Middle East are shifting and Iraq lies right across
:08:22. > :08:27.the fault line. 28 hospitals, five decade, victims
:08:28. > :08:33.of five years old and 75, the numbers speak for themselves,
:08:34. > :08:37.revealing the span and horror of the TV presenter Jimmy Savile's less
:08:38. > :08:42.public activities. A report into just one element of his behaviour,
:08:43. > :08:45.how he connived to gain access to abuse patients in the NHS was
:08:46. > :08:54.published today. You may find some of this report distressing.
:08:55. > :08:58.Decades of access to hundreds of vulnerable patients. Jimmy Savile's
:08:59. > :09:05.obsession with hospitals started in his home town of Leeds. Jane was 16
:09:06. > :09:09.when she was sent to Leeds General for tests, she was taken by the star
:09:10. > :09:15.to buy sweets, the next day he asked to see her again in the back of the
:09:16. > :09:19.hospital. It didn't drag me in, he pulled me in, he gently got hold of
:09:20. > :09:26.me, pulled me in and immediately started to kiss me. With this
:09:27. > :09:32.tongue, at the same time his hands, his left hand went on to my right
:09:33. > :09:38.thigh. I got hold of my hand and he then started to masterbate himself
:09:39. > :09:41.with my hand. I was trying to make some sense, there were three nurses
:09:42. > :09:46.on the ward when I got there, and I said you know, they looked at me and
:09:47. > :09:50.I said you never guess what's just happened and I got as far as Jimmy
:09:51. > :09:54.and they laughed and I never got a chance to say much more than that.
:09:55. > :09:58.Savile worked at the hospital radio station and then in the infirmary
:09:59. > :10:04.itself, as a porter, a fundraiser, a volunteer. He could often be found
:10:05. > :10:09.alone at night, sitting patients' beds, talking to staff. The abuse
:10:10. > :10:14.was widespread. Investigators in Leeds found 60 cases over 50 years,
:10:15. > :10:19.including three of rape. The victims were between five and 75. A
:10:20. > :10:23.ten-year-old boy was sexually assaulted while he waited on a
:10:24. > :10:26.trolley for an X-ray. Teenagers recovering from surgery were abused
:10:27. > :10:31.in their beds and there was even talk of an obsession with dead
:10:32. > :10:35.bodies. The allegations about his behaviour in the mortuary are
:10:36. > :10:41.incredibly harrowing and disturbing. What we do know is that his interest
:10:42. > :10:47.in the dead was pretty unwholesome and that the controls around access
:10:48. > :10:55.to the mortuary, up to the early 1980s were not robust. So many
:10:56. > :11:02.people say how come a showbiz punter is doing a job like this at the
:11:03. > :11:06.world number one mental hospital. By the 1980s Savile was closely
:11:07. > :11:11.connected to a very different type of hospital, Broadmoor in Berkshire
:11:12. > :11:15.housed 250 of the most disturbed psychiatric patients in the country.
:11:16. > :11:18.He started visiting in the late 1960, eventually he had his own room
:11:19. > :11:23.and was even put in charge of a task force to reform the hospital. We
:11:24. > :11:27.know now that Jimmy Savile was given his own set of keys and the run of
:11:28. > :11:31.the hospital grounds here. How then did a television star, with no
:11:32. > :11:38.medical background end up in such a position of power over so many
:11:39. > :11:43.vulnerable patients? In the early 1980s Naomi Stanley was a
:11:44. > :11:46.psychiatric nurse in Cambridge, over the period of months she gained the
:11:47. > :11:51.trust of a young patients transferred from Broadmoor, she
:11:52. > :11:54.claimed she had been raped by Savile on multiple occasions, when she
:11:55. > :11:59.tried to pass on the allegations, she claims she was ignored. Intense
:12:00. > :12:05.annoyance and irritation like I had really spoken out of turn and they
:12:06. > :12:13.looked to the male staff to get me into check. The nursing officer said
:12:14. > :12:18.to me if you ever, ever speak like that again in any kind of meeting,
:12:19. > :12:22.particularly with people who have come from outside you know you are
:12:23. > :12:29.going to be disciplined or you are going to get sacked. Today's report
:12:30. > :12:33.found 11 allegations of sexual abuse by Savile at Broadmoor, six involve
:12:34. > :12:37.patients, two staff and three children visiting. The authors say
:12:38. > :12:40.the real numbers could be far higher, given the chaotic number and
:12:41. > :12:44.vulnerable nature of the people inside. It also raises serious
:12:45. > :12:51.questions about the man running the hospital for most of the 1990s. Alan
:12:52. > :12:55.Frainey was brought into Broadmoor on the recommendation of Jimmy
:12:56. > :12:57.Savile himself. He held a mid-level position at Leeds General Hospital
:12:58. > :13:05.where he met the star and went running with him. Back then Ray
:13:06. > :13:09.Roden was the senior civil servant responsible for secure hospitals,
:13:10. > :13:13.now retired to Spain, he claims he was shocked ZAF had so much freedom
:13:14. > :13:22.and question -- Savile had so much freedom and questioned Frainey about
:13:23. > :13:26.it. When I questioned him about it I was told I failed to understand how
:13:27. > :13:30.valuable the involvement was from this high-profile celebrity. I
:13:31. > :13:34.argued it felt some what voyeuristic to me. What I didn't know at that
:13:35. > :13:38.time is he had a set of keys to the damn makes had I known I would have
:13:39. > :13:42.gone ballistic. You have been named in the report. Yes I know that and I
:13:43. > :13:47.have had advice from the Department of Health to make no comment. He was
:13:48. > :13:48.not willing to talk to the BBC today. But in statement to Newsnight
:13:49. > :14:16.this evening he said: Broadmoor, Leeds Hospital and the
:14:17. > :14:21.Health Secretary all apologised to Savile's victim today. Many say
:14:22. > :14:25.lessons still nod to be learned. We need to be more open and transparent
:14:26. > :14:29.as to what goes on within the walls of places like Broadmoor, and if
:14:30. > :14:32.there are serious allegations from patients, they should be taken
:14:33. > :14:36.seriously, because we now know that the women who would not have been
:14:37. > :14:45.believed should have been believed. They have been proven right. In
:14:46. > :14:48.2011, Jimmy Savile's body was carried past Leeds General Infirmary
:14:49. > :14:51.on the way to the City's Cathedral, thousands lined that route, three
:14:52. > :14:56.years later his fall from grace is complete. Some of his victims, at
:14:57. > :15:01.least, have finally had their say. With us now are Dr Peter Jefferies,
:15:02. > :15:09.who was an independent inspector of Broadmoor during the 80s and Esther
:15:10. > :15:14.Rantzen. The appalling nature of his behaviour is not a shock to u what
:15:15. > :15:18.is shocking today is the scale of it and the places he was involved in.
:15:19. > :15:27.The list here of more than 20 hospital, Broadmoor, Leeds, St
:15:28. > :15:31.Catherine's, Dewsbury and District, the list goes on? The nature of his
:15:32. > :15:34.crimes is still a shock. Reading what he did to vulnerable people,
:15:35. > :15:40.whatever their age, particularly the very young, and disturbed, and with
:15:41. > :15:47.mental health issues is just revolting. It is a measure of his
:15:48. > :15:54.status, his role within society at that stage. He was a sort of clown
:15:55. > :15:57.saint. He managed some how to manipulate us all to believing that
:15:58. > :16:04.he was funny, entertaining and doing an awful lot of good. And that mask
:16:05. > :16:09.was impenetrable. I met the man half-a-dozen times, I never felt I
:16:10. > :16:15.knew him, there was always a very strange creation, he created this
:16:16. > :16:20.personality. But I didn't actually see behind it the depraved, sadistic
:16:21. > :16:25.paedophile we now know existed. These were the most vulnerable
:16:26. > :16:30.people in the most vulnerable positions. Dr Jefferies two of the
:16:31. > :16:33.most astonishing cases in Leeds, and the complete absurdity of what
:16:34. > :16:38.happened at Broadmoor. You were acting as an independent inspector
:16:39. > :16:41.during that period, going in and out every six weeks. You were there and
:16:42. > :16:47.part of it, how on earth was he allowed to have that kind of access
:16:48. > :16:51.to that kind of place? I don't know how he was allowed access, but it
:16:52. > :16:57.was in an era, it was a closed institution. There were abuses of
:16:58. > :17:02.patients by the existing staff and doctors in some case, patients were
:17:03. > :17:06.not being treated with consent, not being complied with the law. And
:17:07. > :17:11.reports by the inspectorate that I was part of regularly, in writing to
:17:12. > :17:16.the hospital and the Department of Health were ignored. For years. But
:17:17. > :17:26.who thought that part of the solution would be to get a BBC DJ
:17:27. > :17:29.with no medical qualification or background to help sort it out. Who
:17:30. > :17:33.thought that was a good idea? The report today both confirms the
:17:34. > :17:38.closed institutional problem but also draws attention to the senior
:17:39. > :17:43.civil servants who suggested Savile's name both to be on the
:17:44. > :17:47.board initially and then to be part of the task force. If you were one
:17:48. > :17:49.of the people inspecting it, surely there should have been some
:17:50. > :17:56.discussion or monitoring of who was coming in and out? The access issue
:17:57. > :18:02.was unbelievable and the report today confirms the totally
:18:03. > :18:06.unsatisfactory nature, but to give Savile responsibility for management
:18:07. > :18:12.of the hospital, someone who had no previous experience and skills, is
:18:13. > :18:17.unbelievable and it meant that apart from his abuse of vulnerable people,
:18:18. > :18:22.it was no way to sort out the problems of institutions that needed
:18:23. > :18:27.sorting. Could you believe what happened at Broadmoor? The other
:18:28. > :18:31.terrible thing is that none of these allegations, none of them, were put
:18:32. > :18:35.to him during his lifetime. He didn't have to face any of these
:18:36. > :18:39.extraordinary tragic stories. But people did try to raise the alarm,
:18:40. > :18:43.as we heard in that film? The trouble is that under our current
:18:44. > :18:47.judicial system, what happens is that you have the evidence of the
:18:48. > :18:52.victims, or the survivor, and then you have got this adversarial
:18:53. > :18:56.system, whereby the defence tries to undermine, confuse, make nonsense of
:18:57. > :19:00.the allegations, and that means if you have got someone with mental
:19:01. > :19:04.health issues, or you have got a very young child, or you have got a
:19:05. > :19:10.child in a children's home, the police will look at that or the
:19:11. > :19:14.investigators look at that and think they haven't got a chance in hell of
:19:15. > :19:18.having their story believed by a jury and it never gets any further.
:19:19. > :19:22.That still happens. Witnesses are still being put up against
:19:23. > :19:26.cross-examination designed to undermine their credibility in an
:19:27. > :19:30.adversarial system that still makes it very, very difficult to bring
:19:31. > :19:33.cases. One group that represents abuse victims believes it could
:19:34. > :19:40.still happen today. Briefly to both of you, do you think it could still
:19:41. > :19:43.happen today? I think we are aware now that being a celebrity is not
:19:44. > :19:47.the same as being a saint. I personally would be quite sorry if
:19:48. > :19:51.stars weren't able to have access, for example, to terminally ill
:19:52. > :19:55.children in a ward for whom it means a lot. Although I have been to
:19:56. > :19:59.hospitals and hospice, never alone, it is never a one-to-one thing, it
:20:00. > :20:03.never happens behind closed doors and nobody has ever given me the
:20:04. > :20:09.key, thank the Lord. Do you believe in the kinds of settings that this
:20:10. > :20:12.kind of access can happen again? I don't think this kind of access
:20:13. > :20:15.could happen again. Individual access and abuse of vulnerable
:20:16. > :20:19.children, adults and mentally ill children will continue, and we need
:20:20. > :20:24.inspection regimes and management that challenges it and prevents it.
:20:25. > :20:27.Very briefly do you think currently have the regimes and are they strong
:20:28. > :20:32.enough? They are stronger than they were, not yet strong enough.
:20:33. > :20:37.Now, EastEnders, Radio 3, Newsnight, of course, website, natural history
:20:38. > :20:40.programmes and even the Great British Bake Off, if you are into
:20:41. > :20:47.that sort of thing. There is a very long list of what your ?15. 50
:20:48. > :20:49.license fee pays for, what might surprise you is also on that list.
:20:50. > :20:53.An information monitoring service that does work for the Government
:20:54. > :20:57.Intelligence Service, including providing information that most BBC
:20:58. > :21:02.journalists cannot see. BBC Monitoring has existed for decades,
:21:03. > :21:06.but last year the Government stopped paying for it, leaving to you pick
:21:07. > :21:16.up the bill, and now Newsnight has learned BBC bosses fear that is
:21:17. > :21:23.compromising the corporation's independence.
:21:24. > :21:29.It is perhaps the BBC's grandest outpost. Staff here just outside
:21:30. > :21:34.Reading monitor the broadcasts of foreign radio stations. They also
:21:35. > :21:39.translate and analyse printed media and on-line material from around the
:21:40. > :21:44.world. The vast majority of that material is available to all BBC
:21:45. > :21:51.journalist, I have used it myself for many years. This is one of the
:21:52. > :21:55.BBC's least known locations, buried deep in the Berkshire countryside,
:21:56. > :22:02.it looks like a magnificent country home, but you don't have to wander
:22:03. > :22:06.very far in the grounds here in the parkland that surrounds the house to
:22:07. > :22:17.realise that there is something less stately and less gentile going on.
:22:18. > :22:24.An ancient mansion in a Pastoral session. With its landscaped acres,
:22:25. > :22:32.a worldwide listening post. It has been going on for decades. The
:22:33. > :22:36.Soviet Union by its action in illegally invading... . The
:22:37. > :22:43.Government used to pay for all this, but last year BBC's Monitoring ?28
:22:44. > :22:49.million budget switched to license fee funding.
:22:50. > :22:55.But there is still a close relationship with Government. An
:22:56. > :22:59.official document defining the functions of the building describes
:23:00. > :23:02.some Government ministries and intelligence agencies as key
:23:03. > :23:09.customers of BBC Monitoring. The Government still funds some work at
:23:10. > :23:16.the building, such as monitoring Jihadi websites and forums, and the
:23:17. > :23:22.Government can commission and pay staff to produce material for them.
:23:23. > :23:25.Some of BBC Monitoring's output is marked "for official use only, not
:23:26. > :23:30.for broadcast". It raises the question why is a part of the BBC,
:23:31. > :23:35.some of whose staff are vetted by the Government, doing work for the
:23:36. > :23:40.intelligence agencies? This Government is trying to divest
:23:41. > :23:46.itself of a whole number of functions, if Cavan if they are
:23:47. > :23:49.going to do this on behalf of the Government let's throw open the
:23:50. > :23:55.windows and understand what they are doing, why they are doing it and
:23:56. > :24:00.what impact it has on the BBC's core purpose of public service
:24:01. > :24:04.broadcasting? Now Newsnight has learned that at the highest levels
:24:05. > :24:08.of the BBC there is concern about whether some of the work being done
:24:09. > :24:12.is unsuitable for a public broadcaster. I understand that as
:24:13. > :24:17.part of the charter renewal process, the corporation is seeking to hand
:24:18. > :24:21.over responsibility for the parts of monitoring that are what one source
:24:22. > :24:30.described as inappropriate for the BBC. BBC monitoring insists it only
:24:31. > :24:33.uses publicly available so called open sources, and that it is not
:24:34. > :24:39.gathering intelligence. It says it does look at some password-protected
:24:40. > :24:45.Jihadi forum, but only on occasions when the password protection has
:24:46. > :24:50.been lifted. . Internal e-mails obtained by Newsnight shed light on
:24:51. > :24:58.the relationship between BBC Monitoring and the Government. This
:24:59. > :25:02.is an e-mail from someone described as the MoD account manager. It shows
:25:03. > :25:08.the sort of information that BBC Monitoring is being asked to find.
:25:09. > :25:10.In this case material on a money transfer network believed to be
:25:11. > :25:16.involved in funding and supplying weapons to the Taliban. And this is
:25:17. > :25:18.how the BBC press office explained monitoring's relationship with the
:25:19. > :25:41.intelligence agencies. The BBC has also told Newsnight that
:25:42. > :25:45.the customers, including the Government and intelligence
:25:46. > :25:50.agencies, not only commission work, but also control whether the
:25:51. > :25:56.material they pay for is shared with BBC News journalists, and if so,
:25:57. > :26:00.which ones. The BBC says that while most of Monitoring's material is
:26:01. > :26:06.distributed widely within the BBC, some of the reports it produce, such
:26:07. > :26:11.as those on Jihadi websites can be seen by only a handful of designated
:26:12. > :26:15.journalists. A small number of reports commissioned by clients are
:26:16. > :26:22.not available to any BBC News journalists. A former BBC executive,
:26:23. > :26:26.who had responsibility for BBC Monitoring says such restrictions on
:26:27. > :26:32.the circulation of material produced by BBC staff are unacceptable. When
:26:33. > :26:36.what you are doing is to provide material to Government sources only,
:26:37. > :26:41.and not to anybody else, then I think that you are deviating from
:26:42. > :26:44.the principles of journalism. I think that is very, very worrying.
:26:45. > :26:49.It is not only worrying, actually, it is extremely dangerous, and I
:26:50. > :26:54.think it should not be done and is not consistent with the principles
:26:55. > :26:58.of BBC journalism and certainly the BBC's world standing in integrity.
:26:59. > :27:02.There are lots of restrictions on movements around this building,
:27:03. > :27:07.downstairs there are BBC staff working in operational areas where
:27:08. > :27:13.we have been told we can film, but I can't be filmed in those areas. And
:27:14. > :27:17.then there is the activity upstairs. There, there are Americans working
:27:18. > :27:22.for an organisation called the Open Source Centre, some of whose staff
:27:23. > :27:32.is recruited by the CIA, and that area is totally off limits. The
:27:33. > :27:36.reciprocal relationship with the Americans goes right back to the
:27:37. > :27:40.Second World War. It has been a sort of open secret. The Americans gather
:27:41. > :27:44.open source material from some parts of the world, and the BBC covers
:27:45. > :27:50.other parts. They then share most of the material. But with BBC
:27:51. > :27:56.Monitoring, now license fee-funded, the partnership with the Americans
:27:57. > :28:04.looks increasing an axe nestic. As for the -- anachronistic. As for the
:28:05. > :28:10.American material it is more tightly controlled than the BBC documents.
:28:11. > :28:14.While I'm told it may be able to get original documents it can't
:28:15. > :28:18.guarantee doing so. It would seem to make sense some of the activities
:28:19. > :28:23.done here to be done by the Government, such as GCHQ, but at the
:28:24. > :28:27.moment it remains the case that some of the material produced here by BBC
:28:28. > :28:32.staff can be seen by Government officials and not seen by
:28:33. > :28:40.journalists in the rest of the BBC. Earlier I spoke to the BBC's
:28:41. > :28:44.director of strategy and digital. We have, and it is a well established
:28:45. > :28:47.tradition in the country that the BBC is independent of Government. It
:28:48. > :28:51.was you that said that, that's vital isn't it? It is absolutely vital we
:28:52. > :28:56.remain independent from Government and we try to protect that the whole
:28:57. > :29:01.time. What we saw in the report was evidence that BBC staff have
:29:02. > :29:04.effectively been acting as sub--contractors for the
:29:05. > :29:10.intelligence agencies. How can that be appropriate, how can that match
:29:11. > :29:12.up at all with that aspiration, that dedication to independence? Let's
:29:13. > :29:17.look at the facts of what they are doing. This is all publicly
:29:18. > :29:20.available information, we declare exactly the fact we are doing it
:29:21. > :29:24.with the intelligence agencies and a range of other people, with the big
:29:25. > :29:27.global news agencies, some of our best universities, companies, and
:29:28. > :29:30.what we are doing is going through publicly available information and
:29:31. > :29:33.providing a cuttings and analysis service. Why does the Government
:29:34. > :29:38.then restrict some of the information to a tiny handful of BBC
:29:39. > :29:42.journalists, if it is all just out there any way? The vast majority of
:29:43. > :29:47.the information is just directly available, Newsnight uses it a lot
:29:48. > :29:50.of the time. They were uncouraged as part of the last license fee deal to
:29:51. > :29:53.go and get more commercial revenue. You are one of the people
:29:54. > :29:57.commissioning a report, you could have said we won't shape any of.
:29:58. > :30:01.That we have tried to find an arrangement so all the insight is
:30:02. > :30:05.available to BBC journalism, and it is, to the audiences watching this
:30:06. > :30:07.evening. If you could see the questions they were asking, that
:30:08. > :30:11.might undermine their ability. Some of it is not available, you admit
:30:12. > :30:15.that? All the insight and information is available, the
:30:16. > :30:18.questions aren't always. If Panorama were pursuing a story you wouldn't
:30:19. > :30:22.know the questions they are asking, that is exactly what we do, so they
:30:23. > :30:26.ask and get these commercial reports. So it is the reports that
:30:27. > :30:32.are not available. It is not just the questions, not all of the
:30:33. > :30:37.reports that are produced there are made available? The information on
:30:38. > :30:40.the inside is all available for BBC journalists. Not the reports? We are
:30:41. > :30:44.looking at that, charter is coming up, we are setting up a working
:30:45. > :30:46.group for the Trust with Monitoring to go through all of these things.
:30:47. > :30:52.There are issues in the report that can all be looked at. What this
:30:53. > :30:57.suggests though is at very senior levels of the BBC there is a view
:30:58. > :31:01.that up until now it has been OK for the Government to decide which BBC
:31:02. > :31:04.journalists get to see information that has been commission bid the
:31:05. > :31:11.intelligence agencies and with links to the CIA, and in some cases to
:31:12. > :31:14.decade that no BBC journalists are allowed to see any of that
:31:15. > :31:18.information at all, and that's OK? The new management can team came in
:31:19. > :31:22.and we asked ourselves a lot of questions, that is why we looked at
:31:23. > :31:26.this last year. There is very good answers, as your report showed, to
:31:27. > :31:30.the vast majority of the questions. If anything needs to change in the
:31:31. > :31:34.charter review and in the short-term we are happy to look at it. As
:31:35. > :31:38.things stand now, to be clear, you believe that all of the information
:31:39. > :31:43.should be shared with any staff that want to see it? As things stand, if
:31:44. > :31:48.I wanted to see information from a Jihadi website, for example, that
:31:49. > :31:50.was gathered from Monitoring, as a BBC journalist I wouldn't be
:31:51. > :31:55.allowed? It is a point of default. It is a point of principle? The
:31:56. > :32:00.insight and analysis is all available to the BBC journalists.
:32:01. > :32:05.When people commission a report they can say that you can't share the
:32:06. > :32:10.insight. But it is you can see it and you can't see the questions. You
:32:11. > :32:15.we could work on a commission basis and make it available for all. We
:32:16. > :32:19.are looking at putting more on the website. What do you think license
:32:20. > :32:22.fee payers watching right now, having clicked on the website today
:32:23. > :32:28.and listened to the radio through the day what do you think they would
:32:29. > :32:32.think of some of their ?145. 50 being used to fund an organisation
:32:33. > :32:37.that has associations with the CIA? So, I would say to them, look at our
:32:38. > :32:41.Syria coverage, amazing coverage, which has been vitally informed by
:32:42. > :32:45.the work of BBC Monitoring. We wouldn't be able to do it without
:32:46. > :32:49.them. We couldn't afford to do this if it was just for BBC News, we
:32:50. > :32:55.wouldn't be able to do this. What about some of the evidence we saw in
:32:56. > :32:58.that film, the request for specific information about a Jihadi network,
:32:59. > :33:02.that is not exactly the kind of thing that you get just from looking
:33:03. > :33:05.up on the web what was on the newspaper yesterday, looking at
:33:06. > :33:08.cuttings, it is not the same thing? That is exactly the kind of
:33:09. > :33:12.information that has been vital in our serial reporting n Iraq, ISIS,
:33:13. > :33:17.Ukraine. There is a real benefit. Was it available to every single BBC
:33:18. > :33:21.journalist? All the insight is available to the BBC journalists and
:33:22. > :33:26.making a difference to audiences day in day out. We are happy to have a
:33:27. > :33:30.look at this in the next period up to charter review, to see if we can
:33:31. > :33:33.make it more transparent, and throw the windows open even more. Should
:33:34. > :33:37.it be part of the conversation that the BBC just stops doing this kind
:33:38. > :33:40.of work for the Government all together, wouldn't that be better?
:33:41. > :33:45.This is an historic accident that we have done this. But actually you get
:33:46. > :33:49.a huge amount of value as a BBC journalist and audience from the
:33:50. > :33:53.fact it is here. You can change the arrangement. Now it is paid for by
:33:54. > :33:56.the license fee? Could you change the arrangements but you could lose
:33:57. > :34:02.the ability to monitor all the sources. Would it be OK if it is
:34:03. > :34:05.fine for the Intelligence Services to request, commission reports from
:34:06. > :34:09.the BBC, would it be OK for them to commission a report from Newsnight,
:34:10. > :34:13.from other parts of the BBC for the Today Programme, that is the kind of
:34:14. > :34:17.relationship you are talking about and defending? This is all put out
:34:18. > :34:21.on the BBC Trust website and put under clear rules and they provide
:34:22. > :34:27.that to a wide range of people, to news agencies, businesses,
:34:28. > :34:31.newspapers. We are happy to look at widing reening that. -- widening
:34:32. > :34:36.that. You were the Culture Secretary for quite some time, when you were
:34:37. > :34:41.Culture Secretary, would you have been happy for the funding of
:34:42. > :34:47.Monitoring to move from the Government into the license fee, so
:34:48. > :34:50.that our viewers, radio listener, website users, were paying for this
:34:51. > :34:54.kind of work to take place. Would you have been happy with that? I'm
:34:55. > :34:57.not the Culture Secretary any more, I work for the BBC, a deal was done
:34:58. > :35:02.for five years for the charter period, we won't renege on that. We
:35:03. > :35:05.will work with Government to look at how BBC Monitoring can thrive in the
:35:06. > :35:09.future and what the right arrangements are for the next
:35:10. > :35:13.charter period. Now, what happens if you vow to fight something to the
:35:14. > :35:17.end, then it ends badly. David Cameron is probably about to find
:35:18. > :35:21.out. When the candidate he demorse becomes, as expected, the new
:35:22. > :35:26.President of the European Commission. That is despite his
:35:27. > :35:48.objections. And concerns over Jean-Claude Juncker's drinking
:35:49. > :35:51.splashed on the front page of tomorrow's Telegraphof tomorrow's
:35:52. > :35:57.Telegraph. It does looks a if he's going to hit defeat. This time he
:35:58. > :36:02.doesn't have a veto, this will be subject to majority voting and the
:36:03. > :36:08.cards are stacked against him. Only a change of heart by Germany or a
:36:09. > :36:14.decision by France, if you like, to remove a prohibition on Christine
:36:15. > :36:18.LaGarde stepping in to Jean-Claude Juncker's place could change this.
:36:19. > :36:21.Both things look unlikely, it does seem the UK will find itself alone
:36:22. > :36:27.when the leaders convene tomorrow. Thank you. Earlier I spoke to Jack
:36:28. > :36:31.Straw, the former Foreign Secretary, and no stranger to these sorts of
:36:32. > :36:36.deals. I put it to him that David Cameron is perfectly entitled to try
:36:37. > :36:41.to block Juncker? He's well within his rights and indeed Ed Miliband
:36:42. > :36:47.and Douglas Alexander have said on behalf of the Labour Party they
:36:48. > :36:51.don't think that Juncker is the aproper rate candidate --
:36:52. > :36:56.appropriate candidate. My criticism of David Cameron is not about that,
:36:57. > :37:00.but his dreadful tactics. He has gone about this in a way that was
:37:01. > :37:04.almost calculated to ensure he was going to lose, although I'm sure he
:37:05. > :37:13.wanted to win. Particularly by going as a former, very distinguished and
:37:14. > :37:17.very guileful British diplomat John Kerr has comment tated today, he
:37:18. > :37:22.went for the man and not the ball. And that's fine if nobody noticeds,
:37:23. > :37:27.but if they do it is -- notices, but if they do it is dreadful. David
:37:28. > :37:30.Cameron has tried to make the case in public, and right across the
:37:31. > :37:35.public the European elections suggested very heavily this is what
:37:36. > :37:40.publics across the continent wanted. Is it right to make the case so
:37:41. > :37:45.publicly? It is right to make the case, but it is what you want out of
:37:46. > :37:51.it. People criticise Tony Blair, but I have seen him operating when we
:37:52. > :38:01.correctly decided that the Prime Minister of Belgium was ppropriate
:38:02. > :38:07.as a federalist, and almost nowhere Governments conjured up Barroso and
:38:08. > :38:11.he has been relatively successful. But the back channels and doing it
:38:12. > :38:15.behind closed doors is not very democratic. Isn't that the problem
:38:16. > :38:19.the EU, people think it is completely remote? It is remote, it
:38:20. > :38:26.is just the way of the world. The issue here was not whether Mr
:38:27. > :38:32.Juncker was more or less better than the alternative candidates, but what
:38:33. > :38:35.he stood for, his set of values and record. That is what Mr Cameron
:38:36. > :38:40.should have talked about, the fact that we need a different leader in
:38:41. > :38:44.Europe to make the change that everybody is saying we need. In a
:38:45. > :38:50.nutshell, less Europe, but better Europe. I think everybody believes
:38:51. > :38:53.that we are not going to get it from Jean-Claude Juncker. Juncker will be
:38:54. > :38:59.the next European Commission President? I'm pretty convinced he
:39:00. > :39:04.will. The truth is Mr Cameron could have come away from this summit with
:39:05. > :39:09.a success, or be on the road to success, instead he has come back
:39:10. > :39:12.with a failure. Talking about persuasion, you were the man who on
:39:13. > :39:19.the behalf of the UK made the case at the UN for the war in Iraq. Now
:39:20. > :39:23.you see the turmoil of recent week, Syria bombing the borders today, do
:39:24. > :39:28.you feel any responsibility for that? Of course I feel a sense of
:39:29. > :39:33.responsibility. I feel a sense of responsibility every day and I think
:39:34. > :39:37.anybody would. Those huge events in 2003, the invasion, has had some
:39:38. > :39:41.effect. What we don't know what effect that has had, nor do we know
:39:42. > :39:44.what would have happened in Iraq except that I think it would have
:39:45. > :39:50.been pretty awful, had we not removed Saddam. And the frustration
:39:51. > :39:54.is that after the surge, the American-led surge in 2006/7, there
:39:55. > :40:00.was a period of relative stability, a real opportunity to bring the Shia
:40:01. > :40:03.and the Sunni and the Kurds together for a period. It looked as though
:40:04. > :40:08.that could be achieved, but sadly it has gone the other way. Do you agree
:40:09. > :40:12.with Tony Blair that there should be targeted and effective, his phrase,
:40:13. > :40:17.intervention in Iraq, western intervention? I don't think I take
:40:18. > :40:25.that view in quite the terms that Tony talks about it. I'm much more
:40:26. > :40:28.sceptical about the value of, for example, drone attacks. They might
:40:29. > :40:33.work, and it is a matter for the Iraqi Government, principally. But
:40:34. > :40:39.in Afghanistan drone attacks have not been as forensic as people were
:40:40. > :40:44.suggesting and you often end up with a lot of innocent people being
:40:45. > :40:48.killed. Peter Mandelson told Newsnight last week that going into
:40:49. > :40:53.Iraq was a mistake, honestly made but still a mistake, is your
:40:54. > :40:56.reflection like that? I put it slightly differently, I have
:40:57. > :41:03.explained why I made the decisions I made, for which I take full
:41:04. > :41:08.responsibility. They were right at the time, but had we known then what
:41:09. > :41:12.we know subsequently, which was for the whole basis of the military
:41:13. > :41:15.action, which was the threat from weapons of mass destruction, was not
:41:16. > :41:19.well founded. There would have been no case whatever for entering into
:41:20. > :41:26.the war. So it was a mistake? In retrospect, yes. What I'm also
:41:27. > :41:34.seeking to do is not evade or avoid my responsibility, having made that
:41:35. > :41:43.decision at the time. Take a look at this, an American President watching
:41:44. > :41:49.the football on TV on air force 1. Air Force One. America didn't beat
:41:50. > :41:52.Germany tonight, no doubt Obama was devastated, but they are through to
:41:53. > :41:56.the next round of the World Cup, unlike others I won't mention.
:41:57. > :42:02.Joining us now from Florida is Rodney Mash, the former England
:42:03. > :42:18.striker who left in the 1970s to ploy his trade there. And we have
:42:19. > :42:22.Mark Fisher not so keen. You were there when football was virtually
:42:23. > :42:27.discovered, and it is catching on now today? Today America was mental,
:42:28. > :42:31.every television story news was about America, it has just got
:42:32. > :42:36.bigger and bigger and bigger. It is, at the moment, at least, it is the
:42:37. > :42:41.biggest thing in town. Mark, the biggest thing in down? I don't know
:42:42. > :42:45.where Rodney is tonight, but I can say that it is certainly not the
:42:46. > :42:50.biggest thing throughout the United States. I was talking to people in
:42:51. > :42:54.Kansas, Nebraska and Colorado, they had no idea this was going on. Do
:42:55. > :42:57.you think you have seen over time actually people starting to see
:42:58. > :43:02.soccer as being a more popular sport. More people watch the
:43:03. > :43:14.Portugal match than the NBA final last week? That's right. But talking
:43:15. > :43:17.about Kansas and Nebraska I don't think anybody cares what happens in
:43:18. > :43:20.those states any way. As far as soccer in America is concerned, Mark
:43:21. > :43:25.is completely wrong when he said that, I will tell you why. After the
:43:26. > :43:32.England Portugal game, the New York Times first four pages of the sports
:43:33. > :43:36.section, the first full four pages were all USA soccer. It is enormous
:43:37. > :43:43.here now. Is it just the Washington Post that is missing out then?
:43:44. > :43:48.Rodney is hitting it right on the head. The Washington Post is
:43:49. > :43:51.covering the heck out of this as is the New York Times, this is very
:43:52. > :43:54.much an elite play in the United States. This is the elite trying to
:43:55. > :43:59.force down the throats of the Americans a game, it is the same
:44:00. > :44:03.people who have been yappering on about the metric system for decades
:44:04. > :44:08.and telling us for half a century that soccer was about to happen in
:44:09. > :44:12.the United States. None of it is true, there is an elite people
:44:13. > :44:17.interested and there is a cachet, and you see it in the New York
:44:18. > :44:21.Times. Forestieri many it remains a dull, boring sport and doesn't hold
:44:22. > :44:25.a candle to the sports we have. It is unclear why the rest of the world
:44:26. > :44:28.wants the United States to become a soccer country, we have sports of
:44:29. > :44:34.our own, every country should have. It is not a sleight against soccer
:44:35. > :44:39.it is just not a sport for American Americans, it is not a sport that
:44:40. > :44:43.fits in with our way of life. If you say football is dull and boring to
:44:44. > :44:48.watch, if you go to an American football or baseball match it goes
:44:49. > :44:51.on for hours. It is either freezing in the world in the winter or
:44:52. > :44:55.sunburn in the summer, surely 90 minutes of fast-paced World Cup
:44:56. > :45:00.action is a bit more interesting than that? Well, Americans tend to
:45:01. > :45:04.watch sports on television and anyone would admit that soccer is
:45:05. > :45:08.not a television sport, the field is too wide, it is very difficult to
:45:09. > :45:13.see the players in any detail. You don't form a bond or identity with
:45:14. > :45:16.the personalities on the field. And the ball is on television tiny, it
:45:17. > :45:22.is very difficult to follow on television and it is continuous
:45:23. > :45:27.action which violate a basic rule of American sport, we just have
:45:28. > :45:32.frequent bathroom breaks and frequent breaks to get a cold one.
:45:33. > :45:36.You have a good sense of humour and it may mean that your entire career
:45:37. > :45:42.to get America to love soccer has failed? Let me make a comparison to
:45:43. > :45:48.American sports and soccer, he just said that the pitch is too big, and
:45:49. > :45:54.the field is too big and the ball is too small. Mark have you ever tried
:45:55. > :45:58.to watch ice hockey on television. You can play for four hours and not
:45:59. > :46:03.see the puck, the puck is this big you can't see it, it travels at 100
:46:04. > :46:07.miles an hour and you can't see the puck, and you watch it for four
:46:08. > :46:10.hours, are you kidding me. Do you think the World Cup is actually a
:46:11. > :46:14.moment where Americans will take football to their hearts, genuinely,
:46:15. > :46:22.or is it just the surprise that they have got through to the next round?
:46:23. > :46:26.I have seen over the 25/30 years, since I have been here, the growth
:46:27. > :46:30.of the sport. There are so many young kids playing. Millions and
:46:31. > :46:34.millions of kids. The women's league is big, the women's national team is
:46:35. > :46:38.fantastic, there is a lot of girls playing. There is a lot of kids
:46:39. > :46:43.playing, it is getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And God forbid,
:46:44. > :46:47.listen to me, if the United States should wind the World Cup you will
:46:48. > :46:51.go mad. We must leave it there I'm afraid. Just before we go, America
:46:52. > :46:54.may have lost tonight, but they are going through, and fans will have
:46:55. > :47:01.been cheered to find out about the arrival in Brazil of their team's
:47:02. > :47:08.new secret weapon. Allegedly Will Ferrell introduced himself yesterday
:47:09. > :47:22.at USA fan HQ I'm honoured to be playing tomorrow. I'm not going to
:47:23. > :47:34.lie to you, I'm not in the best shape. If the game gets close I will
:47:35. > :47:42.bite, I bite the opponent! I'm going to bite every player if I have to.
:47:43. > :47:52.A chilly night across Scotland, a fresh start here. Elsewhere a warmer
:47:53. > :47:56.night, not as cold in the morning, but a grey start for England Wales
:47:57. > :48:00.and Northern Ireland. We are keeping our eye on clumps of heavy,
:48:01. > :48:02.potentially thundery downpours developing particularly