:00:00. > :00:12.The can he kidnapped Israeli teenagers are found dead, in a pit
:00:13. > :00:16.on the West Bank. Hamas is getting the blame. And if history is a
:00:17. > :00:20.guide, the Israeli response will be emotional, but could it also be
:00:21. > :00:29.disproportionate. We hear from the Israelis and Palestinians. Also
:00:30. > :00:33.tonight: # Your run own body
:00:34. > :00:37.# Let me run mine Another well-loved children's
:00:38. > :00:41.entertainer turns out to be a predatory hypocrite. Rofl Harris is
:00:42. > :00:46.found guilty of sexually assaulting children. We asked would we notice
:00:47. > :00:51.the same crimes today? The first UK TV interview with the
:00:52. > :00:57.western intelligence agent who says he infiltrated Al-Qaeda. If I made a
:00:58. > :01:01.mistake talking in my sleep or anything, I would have been exposed
:01:02. > :01:13.and I would have ended up being crucified.
:01:14. > :01:16.Hamas will pay, the Israeli Government is already promising
:01:17. > :01:20.fierce punishment for the deaths of three teenage Jewish settler, found
:01:21. > :01:26.dead, hidden under rocks in a field near Hebron in the West Bank. Let's
:01:27. > :01:30.go straight there tonight and get the latest from the Middle East
:01:31. > :01:35.correspondent. What is happening where you are? I'm close to the
:01:36. > :01:39.field where that grim discovery was made late this afternoon of the
:01:40. > :01:44.three dead Israeli teenagers. There was an Israeli search party that had
:01:45. > :01:50.been looking in this area, which is just outside of Hebron. Here we're
:01:51. > :01:54.only a ten-minute drive from that busy hitch hiking junction which is
:01:55. > :01:58.where the three young Israelis were last seen alive. It is thought they
:01:59. > :02:02.were trying to get a ride home for the weekend when they disappeared.
:02:03. > :02:06.Now the Israeli security cabinet is still meeting tonight to try to
:02:07. > :02:11.decide on its response to all of this. But already it has been made
:02:12. > :02:16.very clear Israel has said consistently that it believes Hamas
:02:17. > :02:20.was responsible for what happened to these teenagers. We have had those
:02:21. > :02:27.strong remarks from the Israeli Prime Minister saying Hamas is to
:02:28. > :02:32.blame, Hamas will pay. Now the Hamas spokesman in Gaza also told the BBC
:02:33. > :02:38.that any attempt to attack the Islamist group would, he said, open
:02:39. > :02:41.the gates of hell. And I should say the Israeli military operation to
:02:42. > :02:45.try to find these teenagers has really targeted Hamas as well over
:02:46. > :02:49.the past two-and-a-ha weeks. There have been more than 400 Palestinians
:02:50. > :02:54.who have been arrested, most of them are members of Hamas. And what
:02:55. > :03:02.evidence is there for that Israeli charge that Hamas is responsible?
:03:03. > :03:07.Well, interestingly the Hamas leader gave an interview last week, in
:03:08. > :03:11.which he said that Hamas had no information on the missing
:03:12. > :03:15.teenagers, although he did praise anyone who might have carried out
:03:16. > :03:21.their kidnapping. When we have put this question to the Israeli
:03:22. > :03:27.military he said this is the modus operandi of Hamas, they claim Hamas
:03:28. > :03:31.has tried to carry out abductions dozens of time in the West Bank over
:03:32. > :03:35.the past year. And a reminder that Hamas was responsible for the
:03:36. > :03:41.capture of the Israeli soldier held in Gaza for five years. But Hamas
:03:42. > :03:47.hasn't itself come out saying that it is responsible. There was also
:03:48. > :03:52.two main suspects that were named by the Israelis who had links to Hamas.
:03:53. > :03:58.Two men who came from the City of Hebron not far away. But all of this
:03:59. > :04:05.is so worrying for the Palestinian President, Mr Abbas, who just signed
:04:06. > :04:10.two months ago a new political agreement with his political rivals,
:04:11. > :04:13.and they went on to set up a new unity Government, and that new unity
:04:14. > :04:17.Government is very much under pressure tonight. As ever in this
:04:18. > :04:24.conflict it is one side's vitriolic word against the other, as we have
:04:25. > :04:27.seen Israel is intent on blaming ham marks Hamas have denied
:04:28. > :04:31.responsibility. The fear tonight is this appalling event for three
:04:32. > :04:36.families could become part of a wider tragedy for the region.
:04:37. > :04:40.The front page story that has gripped Israel. And now the news the
:04:41. > :04:46.country was dreading, the three missing boys are dead. Their bodies
:04:47. > :04:55.found under a pile of rocks in a field. 19-year-old Eyal and Naftali
:04:56. > :05:00.and Gilad, all 16, all teenage seminary students. The hunt for the
:05:01. > :05:04.boys became a nationwide obsession, triggering a frantic search by
:05:05. > :05:08.Israeli forces. One of the most intensive security operations for
:05:09. > :05:12.years. Troops combed the area near Hebron in the West Bank, where the
:05:13. > :05:17.boys went missing nearly three weeks ago. Sweep s also extended to
:05:18. > :05:21.Palestinian towns and villages across the West Bank. Leading to
:05:22. > :05:25.hundreds of arrests. Including members of the Hamas militant group,
:05:26. > :05:29.the reality Government said was responsible. And then, this evening
:05:30. > :05:36.the breakthrough, which led to the bodies being found. The vicinity is
:05:37. > :05:41.now being cordoned off as Israeli forensic teams and security forces
:05:42. > :05:43.look to discover exactly what happened.
:05:44. > :05:47.Unsurprisingly there has been shock and distress from many Israelis,
:05:48. > :05:53.already groups have gathered near the scene to pray and comfort each
:05:54. > :06:00.other. The Israeli Prime Minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, who already
:06:01. > :06:03.warned Hamas that a -- at a cabinet meeting today, he said the boys had
:06:04. > :06:09.been murdered in cold blood and Hamas would pay. Meanwhile the
:06:10. > :06:14.Palestinian President, Mr Abbas, who has already condemned the abductions
:06:15. > :06:19.today summoned an emergency meeting of his minister. He has been under
:06:20. > :06:23.pressure from Israel to end his recent reconciliation with Hamas,
:06:24. > :06:28.that pressure has now intensified. We believe there should be an
:06:29. > :06:32.unequivocal message to the Palestinian leadership, President
:06:33. > :06:36.Abbas, you formed a act with Hamas and we believe that pact has
:06:37. > :06:39.directly led to these Merced. By allowing Hamas to re-establish its
:06:40. > :06:43.presence on the West Bank you have allowed this attack top happen. We
:06:44. > :06:46.believe that all people who oppose terrorism and believe in peace
:06:47. > :06:51.should call upon the Palestinian leadership and President Abbas to
:06:52. > :06:57.break his pact with ham marks to annul the pact. Already tensions are
:06:58. > :07:00.escalating, here Israeli-Arabs protesting at the re-arrest of
:07:01. > :07:07.hundreds of Palestinians because of the abductions. The crowd was
:07:08. > :07:14.dispersed by Israeli riot police. In other incidents five Palestinians
:07:15. > :07:18.lost their lives. There has been new violence too between Israel and
:07:19. > :07:25.Hamas, this was Israeli retaliation for an earlier Hamas rocket attack
:07:26. > :07:31.from Gaza on an Israeli factory. Ham marks which rejects Israel eights
:07:32. > :07:34.accusations that it kidnapped the boys, tonight warned that any
:07:35. > :07:40.military response by Israel would open the gates of hell. It is all a
:07:41. > :07:45.far cry from the peace deal that John Kerry hoped to reach between
:07:46. > :07:49.the Israeli and Palestinian leaders. Tonight President Obama condemned
:07:50. > :07:53.the boys' murders, but above all urged restraint on all sides. At
:07:54. > :07:59.this fraught moment that may be more of a hope than a likelihood. The
:08:00. > :08:04.Israeli ambassador to the UK joins us, what evidence does the Israeli
:08:05. > :08:07.Government have for blaming Hamas? Well obviously we don't share all
:08:08. > :08:11.our evidence publicly, particularly when the search for the two
:08:12. > :08:18.perpetrators is still under way. But a number of things are in this
:08:19. > :08:21.tragic moment very clear. Hamas is an organisation which has been
:08:22. > :08:26.calling for kidnappings. We have seen that since the beginning of
:08:27. > :08:31.last year there were over 49 attempts, mercifully most of which
:08:32. > :08:37.were frustrated, almost all but one were frustrated. We had them talking
:08:38. > :08:40.about blessed are the hands of those who perpetrated this. That is not
:08:41. > :08:45.the only attempt this murderous organisation is making to kill
:08:46. > :08:50.Israelis. We have had in the last 24 hours 16 rockets fired from Gaza on
:08:51. > :08:53.towns and villages inside Israel. On this specific case, are you
:08:54. > :08:57.satisfied that there is concrete, direct evidence that this appalling
:08:58. > :09:02.murder, these appalling three murders were carried out by Hamas?
:09:03. > :09:05.The answer is yes, we are absolutely clear, that is the basis for the
:09:06. > :09:09.investigation so far. And that is the basis for our response. What
:09:10. > :09:13.will that response be, the language already from the Israeli Government
:09:14. > :09:17.tonight has been extremely strong, very incendiary, talking about
:09:18. > :09:23.punishment, talking about vengence? I don't think it is right to call it
:09:24. > :09:27.incendiary, you are talking about three teenagers on their way home to
:09:28. > :09:32.their parents and brutally murdered in cold blood. We have had over 200
:09:33. > :09:36.missiles fired from the Gaza strip since the beginning of this year. We
:09:37. > :09:40.are talking about an organisation that doesn't dream of peace, but
:09:41. > :09:44.dreams of the brutal murder of Israelis. We need to respond to that
:09:45. > :09:47.organisation in a language it understands. At the moment Israel is
:09:48. > :09:51.threatening the eradication of Hamas, to quote one of your
:09:52. > :09:55.ministers, does it not behove the Israeli Government to have a moment
:09:56. > :10:02.of calm so the death of these three teenagers does not turn into a much
:10:03. > :10:06.wider, much more significant conflagration, with more blood being
:10:07. > :10:11.spilled? As we are sitting here the Israeli security cabinet is
:10:12. > :10:15.deliberating yours correspondent described T we are aware of concerns
:10:16. > :10:19.of escalation and proportionality and so on. But we have to bear in
:10:20. > :10:23.mind that we are dealing with an adversary that doesn't bother itself
:10:24. > :10:26.with those calculation at all. There is no symmetry. This is an
:10:27. > :10:30.organisation that raises its children to praise and emulate
:10:31. > :10:34.suicide bombers, which is firing missiles as we speak, and which has
:10:35. > :10:38.been attempting repeatedly to kidnap and murder Israelis. So any response
:10:39. > :10:44.to this would be justified in your view? As I said we are the side of
:10:45. > :10:49.this equation where tragically we grapple with these issues. It would
:10:50. > :10:54.be far easier if there was more clarity on the Palestinian side.
:10:55. > :10:58.What is so frustrating is Abu Mazin, who presents himself as a partner
:10:59. > :11:03.for peace, seems to think you can sit down being partner of peace
:11:04. > :11:07.while at the same time embracing this Hamas, terrorist organisation.
:11:08. > :11:11.Joining us from the West Bank is the leader of the secular Palestinian
:11:12. > :11:15.national initiative party. Thank you for joining us. The reality
:11:16. > :11:24.Government is entitled to retaliate are they not? No they are not. First
:11:25. > :11:33.of all I think the main person responsible for the tragic that
:11:34. > :11:37.happened is Mr Netherton -- Binyamin Netanyahu himself. He's responsible
:11:38. > :11:42.for the tragic death of more than ten minutes so far who were killed
:11:43. > :11:48.by his army, including three children. I don't think... You are
:11:49. > :11:55.suggesting these young teenagers had it coming are you? Because they were
:11:56. > :11:58.somewhere geographically? They should not have been in illegal
:11:59. > :12:02.settlements which are considered illegal by international law and a
:12:03. > :12:05.violation of international law, that is what all countries of the world
:12:06. > :12:08.are saying. And Mr Binyamin Netanyahu should have protected them
:12:09. > :12:16.and not tending them to these places. More than that he's now.
:12:17. > :12:20.Retaliating and he wants to retaliate, without even bringing a
:12:21. > :12:27.single proof that any Palestinian was responsible for their deaths.
:12:28. > :12:35.There is very strange. Are you not suggesting that any settler is fair
:12:36. > :12:39.game. President Netenyahu didn't kill these people himself? I don't
:12:40. > :12:42.like anybody to be killed, but I'm saying no security or real peace
:12:43. > :12:46.will be available either to Palestinians or Israelis, unless the
:12:47. > :12:50.Israeli military occupation is ended. Unless the system of
:12:51. > :12:54.apartheid, discrimination, and oppression of the Palestinian
:12:55. > :12:59.people, during an occupation that has become the longest in modern
:13:00. > :13:04.history, for 47 years we have been oppressed. And unless this ends, the
:13:05. > :13:09.main cause of insecurity, the main cause of suffering, which is mostly
:13:10. > :13:15.on the Palestinian side is this Israeli military occupation. Mr
:13:16. > :13:18.Netenyahu has broken the peace process before, and undermined any
:13:19. > :13:23.possibility for a two-state solution. Now he's trying to use a
:13:24. > :13:29.tragic death to escalate a new war. Can you be sure that Hamas are not
:13:30. > :13:33.behind these three deaths, are you sure of that? What I'm sure about is
:13:34. > :13:40.that Hamas has said very clearly that they are not responsible for
:13:41. > :13:44.this. No Palestinian group has declared responsibility for it. I'm
:13:45. > :13:48.sure that the Israeli Government, Mr Netenyahu and the Israeli ambassador
:13:49. > :13:51.in London, could not provide up to this moment any single proof that
:13:52. > :13:57.any Palestinian was responsible for this. But at the end of the day, the
:13:58. > :14:00.overall cause of all suffering here is the continued military occupation
:14:01. > :14:04.of Palestinian territories and the lack of peace which Israel is
:14:05. > :14:09.responsible for. You brokered the deal with Hamas to put together this
:14:10. > :14:13.new Government, which is only weeks old. How will you be telling others
:14:14. > :14:17.to respond. Hamas is already saying tonight, they are talking about
:14:18. > :14:24.opening the "gates of hell" if there is retaliation from Israel, what
:14:25. > :14:28.will you be saying? I would say that Hamas can be approached to accept
:14:29. > :14:35.nonviolent resistance, and accept this as a form. And Hamas, in my
:14:36. > :14:39.opinion can be convinced to accept a two-state solution if Israel is
:14:40. > :14:42.ready to end the occupation and oppression of the Palestinian people
:14:43. > :14:46.and this apartheid, illegal system. For everybody's sake this is the
:14:47. > :14:50.best way forward. You know we have been conducting nonviolent, peaceful
:14:51. > :14:55.resistance, and the response we get from Israel is attacks and gun shots
:14:56. > :15:00.from the Israeli army which killed two very young boys, children,
:15:01. > :15:05.basically, who are 15, 16 years old, just before this incident happened.
:15:06. > :15:09.What I'm saying is there should be not double standard. All lives,
:15:10. > :15:14.Palestinian and Israelis are precious and should be observed
:15:15. > :15:17.through peace. Thank you very much. Rofl Harris
:15:18. > :15:26.said the most important thing for him was not to con public. But in
:15:27. > :15:32.fact his whole public persona was a fraud. He was a mildly irritating
:15:33. > :15:36.children's entertainment, but a man who used that status to abuse
:15:37. > :15:41.children over two decades. He was not, in the end, too famous or
:15:42. > :15:49.powerful to face justice. After years of silence his victims'
:15:50. > :15:57.stories were told and believed. An entertainer for 60 years. From
:15:58. > :16:04.children's programmes to prime time TV. From black and white to full
:16:05. > :16:09.colour. Today though Rofl Harris left court with that reputation in
:16:10. > :16:13.pieces. Guilty of a series of historic sex offence, one against a
:16:14. > :16:17.girl as young as seven. The victims in this case have suffered in
:16:18. > :16:21.silence for many years and have only recently found the courage to come
:16:22. > :16:26.forward. I would like to pay tribute to the bravery they displayed in
:16:27. > :16:31.coming to court and giving evidence. That bravery and determination has
:16:32. > :16:45.seen Rofl Harris brought to justice and held to account. 30 years ago
:16:46. > :16:52.Harrison Harris was already a veteran of Saturday night TV. I had
:16:53. > :16:55.a curious catch phrase I use at every available opportunity at that
:16:56. > :17:02.stage, I would say without thinking "I never touched her your honour"!
:17:03. > :17:06.The women central to the case said it was around this time she was
:17:07. > :17:16.first abused, on holiday, then at his home. By the early 1980s he had
:17:17. > :17:19.moved to the quiet village of Brae Berkshire, he was a family man and
:17:20. > :17:24.she a close friend of his young daughter. She told the court she was
:17:25. > :17:29.13 at the time, terrified and didn't feel she could say no. From behind
:17:30. > :17:33.the curtain she said how the abuse continued on and off for more than a
:17:34. > :17:38.decade. She said it turned her into an alcoholic. In 1997 Harris wrote
:17:39. > :17:42.this letter to her father, in it the star asks for forgiveness, saying
:17:43. > :17:46.they did had a relationship but it was consensual and didn't start
:17:47. > :17:52.until she was 18. Her family didn't believe him, nor did the jury. It
:17:53. > :17:55.was after watching the Queen's Jubilee Concert that the same woman
:17:56. > :18:04.felt she was strong enough to call the police. Saying she could never
:18:05. > :18:10.get away from that "bloody man". His arrest led to a wave of publicity
:18:11. > :18:14.and others came forward, one groped outside a community centre in
:18:15. > :18:18.Portsmouth when she was seven or eight years old. Another this
:18:19. > :18:22.celebrity sports event in Cambridge when she was 16, Harris denied
:18:23. > :18:27.visiting the city until this old footage was played in court. He put
:18:28. > :18:33.his hand on my thigh. Then there was Tonya Lee, the only one of the
:18:34. > :18:37.victims to wave her anonymity, after selling her story in Australia. She
:18:38. > :18:41.was 15 when she was sexually assaulted in a pub in East London. I
:18:42. > :18:46.wanted to scream but I didn't. I knew what he had done was wrong. I
:18:47. > :18:51.was embarrassed as well, and then I thought, I didn't want to tell
:18:52. > :18:54.anybody that he had touched me. The court heard from witnesses across
:18:55. > :18:58.the world with similar stories, from Darwin, from New Zealand, from
:18:59. > :19:03.Malta, one make-up lady said they had a nickname for him, "the
:19:04. > :19:11.octopus". Can I say how lovely you look. You smoothie. Harris's defence
:19:12. > :19:14.claimed he was just a touchy, feely sort of person, somebody who could
:19:15. > :19:23.be tactile and affectionate with men and women. In court old colleagues,
:19:24. > :19:27.like the director Dougie Squires stood up to say they hadn't seen
:19:28. > :19:33.anything inappropriate at work or anything that had crossed the line:
:19:34. > :19:36.The torture of being there for six weeks listening to some people who
:19:37. > :19:40.defended him and some people accusing him, which is right or
:19:41. > :19:48.wrong, and only he probably knows the truth. But the torture of it is
:19:49. > :19:55.a penalty in itself. That is the humility of being there is
:19:56. > :19:58.punishment in itself. What happens now, the punishment has been
:19:59. > :20:05.administered, if that is the right word. This is the most high-profile
:20:06. > :20:10.result yet for Operation Yewtree, the investigation set up after the
:20:11. > :20:15.Jimmy Savile's scandal. There no suggestion that the two offenders
:20:16. > :20:17.are connected. For years he did work closely with children and young
:20:18. > :20:23.people, even fronting a film highlighting the danger of child
:20:24. > :20:26.abuse. It is that sort of touching I want to talk about today, it helps
:20:27. > :20:32.you to understand the sort of touching that doesn't make you feel
:20:33. > :20:37.too good. Rofl Harris's wife, Alwen returned to the family home alone
:20:38. > :20:40.this evening, her husband's career over and his reputation damaged
:20:41. > :20:45.forever. Once again the questions will be asked. How did this happen
:20:46. > :20:51.so many times? For so long? Without the authorities, his employers or
:20:52. > :20:59.anyone else stopping it? With us now are the former Director of Public
:21:00. > :21:03.Prosecutions Kier Starmer, who was in charge at the CPS when they made
:21:04. > :21:09.the decision to prosecute Rofl Harris. And we have a representative
:21:10. > :21:13.from the NSPCC. It is almost impossible to believe some of that
:21:14. > :21:17.archive when you see T when you took the decision he is CPS, how
:21:18. > :21:20.confident were you that the charges would stick, given his public image
:21:21. > :21:25.and persona? I was confident in the decision, but his persona is very
:21:26. > :21:29.important. It is very difficult for victims of sexual abuse to come
:21:30. > :21:33.forward. In ordinary circumstances it is particularly difficult where
:21:34. > :21:37.there is a celebrity involved, because very often victims feel they
:21:38. > :21:41.are simply not going to be believed against someone such as Rofl Harris.
:21:42. > :21:46.It was exactly the same with Jimmy Savile, where very few victims did
:21:47. > :21:49.come forward in that case they felt they couldn't think Jimmy Savile on,
:21:50. > :21:54.or that they would be believed. That is a critical part of this whole
:21:55. > :21:58.case. What also about the difficulties of historic testimony,
:21:59. > :22:01.I mean we saw from this court case, for some of the people giving
:22:02. > :22:06.testimony they were reaching back 20, 30 years, that wasn't always
:22:07. > :22:10.straight forward. It was sometimes problematic? It is, it makes the
:22:11. > :22:17.cases much more difficult, but one thing very important in creating a
:22:18. > :22:22.better environment for people to come forward is to bust the myths,
:22:23. > :22:27.so people will come forward quickly if they have been abused. There is a
:22:28. > :22:32.myth, it was very long after the event before victims felt they could
:22:33. > :22:36.come forward. We have to recognise that is part of the way we respond
:22:37. > :22:43.to this sort of offending. It does create difficulties, but let as bust
:22:44. > :22:47.some of those myths. Operation Yewtree yielding results now for the
:22:48. > :22:52.authorities, it is an unusual spasam of prosecutions and an outpouring of
:22:53. > :22:57.looking back over the years. Do you think it will contribute to change
:22:58. > :23:03.for victims? It has already, not only with Operation Yewtree, but we
:23:04. > :23:08.have heard from the helpline service about a number of people who are not
:23:09. > :23:13.only reporting historical abuse but also what is happening now in our
:23:14. > :23:18.communities. I think there is a huge sea change both in public
:23:19. > :23:27.confidence, with police and CPS, and also with children Children's
:23:28. > :23:31.Services and being able to address these disturbing string of events
:23:32. > :23:34.occurring. I think it will encourage victims to come forward if they have
:23:35. > :23:38.concerns about what happened to them in the past by other people in
:23:39. > :23:44.authority. What kinds of numbers are you talking about, a surge of new
:23:45. > :23:47.reports coming forward? We have seen since Operation Yewtree started back
:23:48. > :23:53.in October. We are seeing on occasions a doubling or trebling of
:23:54. > :23:56.reports to our helpline service. There is a significant increase now
:23:57. > :24:02.in people coming forward and giving information about children at risk.
:24:03. > :24:04.Of course that is happening at a time when the prosecuting
:24:05. > :24:09.authorities and the police are having to do more with less
:24:10. > :24:13.resources, a doubling or trebling of people coming forward, can they cope
:24:14. > :24:16.with it? Yes they can, and there is resources to deal with it. One of
:24:17. > :24:22.the critical things that shouldn't be missed at the heart of this is
:24:23. > :24:25.anonymity. Very often victims find it difficult to come forward, but
:24:26. > :24:29.will come forward if they know there is another victim out there. Whilst
:24:30. > :24:33.everybody understands and sympathises with an innocent person
:24:34. > :24:39.who is wrongly charged with rape or some other offence, what this case
:24:40. > :24:42.shows is that anonymity would have served an injustice, because some of
:24:43. > :24:46.the victims would not have come forward. In fact, had there been
:24:47. > :24:54.anonymity, which some people argue for, which is until conviction, your
:24:55. > :24:57.headline tonight would be "it's Rofl Harris" because you wouldn't have
:24:58. > :25:01.known that until tonight. This goes to the heart of the very important
:25:02. > :25:04.debate about anonymity. We are still getting people coming forward and
:25:05. > :25:09.giving us information about Rofl Harris as well. Even tonight? I
:25:10. > :25:16.think it is really important that if we remove anonymity in some of these
:25:17. > :25:20.case, and it should be judged on a case-by-case basis, it gives you a
:25:21. > :25:22.greater degree of confidence for people to come forward and provide
:25:23. > :25:29.valuable information for the investigation. Very briefly, do you
:25:30. > :25:34.think there is a danger that with Operation Yewtree that such a huge
:25:35. > :25:37.phenomenon, is it a danger that we will focus on it so much that in the
:25:38. > :25:41.end we will think we have dealt with this problem and it is all in the
:25:42. > :25:45.past? No, what it does is remind organisations that what you have to
:25:46. > :25:48.have in place is very robust reporting procedures and also a
:25:49. > :25:52.culture that allows people to speak out. There has to be a cultural
:25:53. > :25:58.shift, we are in the foot hills, a huge amount to do, a step forward
:25:59. > :26:06.but let not anybody think we are where we need to be on this.
:26:07. > :26:10.If it were a Hollywood blockbuster you wouldn't believe it, a member of
:26:11. > :26:15.a biker gang becomes a Muslim and makes friends with some of the
:26:16. > :26:21.biggest extremist, then he last has a change of heart, and gets in touch
:26:22. > :26:25.with Security Services and infiltrates Al-Qaeda. It is a true
:26:26. > :26:38.story, but it doesn't have a happy ending.
:26:39. > :26:43.This is Morton Storm in 2005, the Danish extremist protesting in
:26:44. > :26:48.London. This is his image eight years later, his image pinned on the
:26:49. > :26:53.wall, extremists want to kill him for betraying Al-Qaeda. If I went to
:26:54. > :26:58.sleep and talked in my sleep I would have been exposed and ended up being
:26:59. > :27:02.crucified. His account of seven years under cover for western
:27:03. > :27:09.intelligence inside Al-Qaeda makes terrifying reading. He says Danish
:27:10. > :27:14.intelligence, MI5, MI 6 and the CIA were all happy to use his contacts
:27:15. > :27:21.for terrorists at the highest level. Especially in Yemen where he was a
:27:22. > :27:26.trusted contact of this man, once considered one of the most dangerous
:27:27. > :27:31.terrorists in the world. We have people from Mexico, America,
:27:32. > :27:36.Britain, when he came out of prison, that is why we became friends. In
:27:37. > :27:41.his first UK TV interview he started by telling me about his early
:27:42. > :27:47.troubled childhood in Denmarks, spells in prison, gangs and Islam.
:27:48. > :27:54.There was violence and conflict in your life, talk to me about that? I
:27:55. > :27:58.could see like many kids neglected by parents. I was kicked out of five
:27:59. > :28:04.schools when I was young. I couldn't sit still. But I went into this
:28:05. > :28:07.library and picked up the biography of the Prophet Mohammed and read the
:28:08. > :28:13.whole book in one day, that is something I never did before. It
:28:14. > :28:21.totally caught me and I was so convinced from the moment I was such
:28:22. > :28:25.a different person when I entered the library and when I left. While
:28:26. > :28:30.praying at Regent's Park in London, met a man who offered him help to
:28:31. > :28:36.travel to Yemen and study a fundamentalist version of Islam. I
:28:37. > :28:39.returned from Yemen with more hatred in me. You thought you were the
:28:40. > :28:47.chosen one and everyone else was wrong. In Luton and London he became
:28:48. > :28:52.a supporter of Omar Bakri Mohammed, excluded from London but never
:28:53. > :28:59.convicted. He started attending his meetings, fired up about injustices
:29:00. > :29:07.in the world, he saw it his duty to protect Muslim lands, Jihad. He's
:29:08. > :29:11.two tongued, and two faced, I was shocked when I later discovered how
:29:12. > :29:16.he had this split permity. He would have the public face but privately
:29:17. > :29:25.would he say that Jihad was permissible inside the UK? Yes he
:29:26. > :29:31.did. His fatwahs have made young people commit terrorism within
:29:32. > :29:35.Europe and outside Europe. In 2006 he hoped to travel to Somalia to
:29:36. > :29:40.help fight for an Islamic state. When he couldn't go it undermined
:29:41. > :29:47.his faith that his Jihad was ordained by God. He had a crisis of
:29:48. > :29:50.faith. I said goodbye to my family and didn't expect to come back. You
:29:51. > :29:56.thought this was your religious calling? That was it, it was my
:29:57. > :30:02.call. To fight Jihad and you were stopped. Absolutely. He decided to
:30:03. > :30:06.renounce Islam, privately, and use his contacts to work in the
:30:07. > :30:13.intelligence world. That is quite a radical thing to do. But I think my
:30:14. > :30:19.life has always been radical. I always lived in the extremes of life
:30:20. > :30:22.from eight years old, I knew I could be different and I knew the only
:30:23. > :30:27.people could be close to people like that is people like me. His contact
:30:28. > :30:34.list was priceless, he got to know the British shoe bomber Richard
:30:35. > :30:38.Reid, and the 9/11 accomplice. The man who recently became Britain's
:30:39. > :30:44.first suicide bomber in Syria, and the Yemeni-based American cleric.
:30:45. > :30:50.Dubbed the Bin Laden of the internet. He played key roles in the
:30:51. > :30:54.attack at the military base and two plots designed to bring down
:30:55. > :30:58.passenger planes. His extremist lectures and bomb-making
:30:59. > :31:05.instructions posted on-line were proving popular with Jihadis
:31:06. > :31:11.on-line. Morton was his friend and willing to help with the west. He
:31:12. > :31:18.offered to find him an English-speaking wife. I just want
:31:19. > :31:22.to tell you that right now I feel nervous... This is the woman he
:31:23. > :31:28.found and this is the private encrypted video she sent to him. She
:31:29. > :31:35.travelled to Yemen and married him, who was delighted. Her suitcase was
:31:36. > :31:39.bugged so he could be traced, arriving in Yemen she was told to
:31:40. > :31:46.leave all her luggage behind, so the American plan failed. The Americans
:31:47. > :31:52.were furious and angry, we did fall out. The methodology of working with
:31:53. > :31:58.this. And they didn't want to talk to me for six months. He was skilled
:31:59. > :32:03.by a drone strike in 20 11 and though the suitcase plan fails,
:32:04. > :32:09.Storm says it was his other work that traced him and the CIA owe him
:32:10. > :32:14.a big success fee they promised. Do you think the Americans still owe
:32:15. > :32:19.you $5 million. Yes of course they do. Why? Because I have done a lot
:32:20. > :32:25.of work for them, I carried out the mission that led them to the world's
:32:26. > :32:30.most wanted terrorist. Storm claims he even secretly recorded his CIA
:32:31. > :32:43.handler in an effort for recognition.
:32:44. > :32:51.Six months after Orlaki was killed, Storm was back under cover, trying
:32:52. > :32:57.to find other terrorists linked to Al-Qaeda. This time he says the CIA
:32:58. > :33:00.was willing to see him die, and he was warned off by another agent. I'm
:33:01. > :33:06.working for them but they are planning to kill you once the whole
:33:07. > :33:11.world will think you were a terrorist. We will west actually
:33:12. > :33:16.believe we are the God one, once we discover the other side of it, you
:33:17. > :33:22.get so deeply disappointed. The CIA declined to comment. We can't
:33:23. > :33:26.independently verify Storm's story, but there is supporting material. He
:33:27. > :33:35.says he's now in hiding in fear for his life.
:33:36. > :33:37.The size of your check book from -- chequebooks from your backers
:33:38. > :33:46.matters in politics. The parties need to be sure they have a supply
:33:47. > :33:51.of readyies. Labour can be confident of support from Unite, who announced
:33:52. > :33:55.its plans to help pay Labour's way today. But are they really convinced
:33:56. > :34:00.Ed Miliband is getting everything right? Not quite. I spoke to its
:34:01. > :34:08.leader a little earlier and asked what had changed to promted to's
:34:09. > :34:15.generosity. There has been some really interesting debates taking
:34:16. > :34:17.place in the party. John Cruddas and Anglia Eagle have been responsible
:34:18. > :34:21.for gathering thoughts from thousand of Labour Party memories, including
:34:22. > :34:28.trade unions. I think what's beginning to emerge is the
:34:29. > :34:33.likelihood of a positive, cohesive programme that offers hope to the
:34:34. > :34:38.British electorate. Today, your workers were voting to strike over
:34:39. > :34:42.pay. At the same time, Ed Balls was on a platform talking about
:34:43. > :34:47.restraining spending and he was talking about pulling down taxes for
:34:48. > :34:53.business and you know the Labour leadership is committed to
:34:54. > :34:58.restraining public pay. Ed Balls has said time and again it is no way we
:34:59. > :35:03.should be arguing for higher pay. How do those things square? The
:35:04. > :35:09.reality is we have always disagreed with Ed Balls about the question of
:35:10. > :35:13.public sector pay. Whilst leaders do have to have economic credibility,
:35:14. > :35:18.we understand that, it is about a balance and about making sure you
:35:19. > :35:30.have credibility with workers. Our members in have had 4,000 in real
:35:31. > :35:36.wages reduced and people can't put up with that any longer. So the
:35:37. > :35:40.argument is that we have to persuade both Eds, if you like that there is
:35:41. > :35:43.an alternative to the constant theme about restraint, restraint,
:35:44. > :35:49.restraint. If you were a member of your union
:35:50. > :35:55.who voted to strike today over pay being frozen or cut in some places,
:35:56. > :35:59.and you saw you promising to write cheques for millions of their money
:36:00. > :36:04.for a Labour leadership who won't increase their pay. Wouldn't you be
:36:05. > :36:09.confused about that I? That is why Ed has to demonstrate with key here
:36:10. > :36:14.issive package what new deal he will present to working people. He hasn't
:36:15. > :36:18.done that? Of course he hasn't, that is the process currently taking
:36:19. > :36:22.place, and we are urging them to do precisely that. You are right, I'm
:36:23. > :36:26.not going to my members and ask them to start voting for a political
:36:27. > :36:34.party that they don't see any different from this current
:36:35. > :36:38.disastrous Conservative Government we had. I'm confident we will see
:36:39. > :36:43.the programme that delivers and gives us hope. You don't sound that
:36:44. > :36:50.confident, only ten months tomorrow until the elections? Ten months is a
:36:51. > :36:54.long, long time in politics. Is sounds like you have -- it sounds
:36:55. > :36:59.like you have had assurances from the Labour leaderships? I have had
:37:00. > :37:03.no private assurances or private meetings. I'm confident about the
:37:04. > :37:08.debate taking place in the policy forums. You have promised a blank
:37:09. > :37:15.cheque with your members' money to a party you have just admitted has not
:37:16. > :37:19.yet even convinced you they are on the members' side? There is no blank
:37:20. > :37:25.cheque, the way we operate in my union, contrary to the media. Is our
:37:26. > :37:30.lay member executive will term what donations we give. Do you really
:37:31. > :37:38.feel the leadership is listening top radical ideas. Some -- to radicaled
:37:39. > :37:42.ideas -- radical ideas. Some think that they just get left. And there
:37:43. > :37:50.is a cynical idea that it is all about the press and local groups. I
:37:51. > :37:54.can understand the frustration, he and Angela Eagle are doing fantastic
:37:55. > :38:00.job. I see many of the policies that Ed has talked about, a million new
:38:01. > :38:05.homes, given hope of apprenticeships to our young people without jobs.
:38:06. > :38:09.Zero hour contracts being banned and increasing the minimum wage, there
:38:10. > :38:14.is a whole litany of policy, regional investment banks to invest
:38:15. > :38:20.in local communities. There is a whole litany ideas that need to be
:38:21. > :38:25.knitted together in a programme. And John Cruddas has been involved in
:38:26. > :38:30.that and I'm confident there is something we can come away with and
:38:31. > :38:35.take into the election. We are a long way away from the general
:38:36. > :38:40.election. You will see massive swings in public opinion over the
:38:41. > :38:43.next 6-9 months. When did you last have a proper
:38:44. > :38:52.conversation, yes, I'm talking to you, with your whatsapp? On your
:38:53. > :38:55.phone and tweak David Kelly on there.
:38:56. > :39:00.Experts say it is killing the art of discourse, many of us prefer to edit
:39:01. > :39:05.our thoughts in a text, rather than engage on the unpredictable
:39:06. > :39:13.face-to-face discussion. Enthusiasts for this endangered activity are
:39:14. > :39:16.hitting back, with etiquette classes and conversations between strangers.
:39:17. > :39:32.This is the unspeakable Steven Smith.
:39:33. > :39:44.Has there ever been so much chatter in human history. But is anybody
:39:45. > :39:49.actually saying anything? How has your day been, good? Would a moment
:39:50. > :39:52.of intimacy and warmth be too much to ask for? Did you see that
:39:53. > :39:57.incident the other day when that Suarez bit that geezer. Yeah,
:39:58. > :40:02.whatever, yeah? That was a liberty wasn't it, blimey. I don't know
:40:03. > :40:08.about you but I'm desperate to find meaning and contact in our howlingly
:40:09. > :40:12.lonely digital world. I picked that Jeremy Paxman up the other day, I
:40:13. > :40:19.would like to bite him on the shoulder! You have come a long way.
:40:20. > :40:25.Only a short cab ride, but worth it to talk to you and you.
:40:26. > :40:30.Face-to-face, just the two of us, with no electronic media or apps
:40:31. > :40:37.coming between us. It is all too rare these days.
:40:38. > :40:41.Very interesting, carry on. Noel Coward on seeing him in the role,
:40:42. > :40:51.he's just a bit too plummy for my taste. As host of Radio 4's Just A
:40:52. > :41:03.Minute, Nicholas Parsons has a front row seat for chat. But he for one
:41:04. > :41:11.isn't wedded to his mobile. And as for Dr Dre-style headphones, won't
:41:12. > :41:16.get him started. You look impeccable but maybe a pair of Di Canios when
:41:17. > :41:20.you are next at Lords? Ridiculous idea, you are creating good
:41:21. > :41:25.conversation, that is what this is about. I think you are, I'm trying
:41:26. > :41:28.to return the ball that's all? I'm responding to what you are saying
:41:29. > :41:36.because you said this programme would be about conversation. This is
:41:37. > :41:44.what it is, you SPEEBLG to somebody and stimulate their cerebral parts
:41:45. > :41:47.and come back with something and you respond. A lot of that is dying out
:41:48. > :41:53.because Millennium Dome don't do it enough. -- because people don't do
:41:54. > :41:57.it enough. Do you like conversation, researchers have been finding out
:41:58. > :42:01.what is going on with people who prefer to text and talk, when they
:42:02. > :42:10.can get a word out of them at all, of course? Not all new technology
:42:11. > :42:14.imhi bits conversation. When I have been doing my work and I ask people
:42:15. > :42:19.what is happening with conversation, they tell me that I tell you what is
:42:20. > :42:26.wrong, it takes place in real time and you can't control what you are
:42:27. > :42:30.going to say. What they mean by that is they would rather have control
:42:31. > :42:36.and be able to do their little side of the conversation when they, you
:42:37. > :42:41.know, when they are relaxed and they can edit. And also that they sort of
:42:42. > :42:53.want to broadcast their little side of the conversation.
:42:54. > :42:57.But all is not lost. Etiquette expert Diana is reviving the art of
:42:58. > :43:05.conversation, one afternoon tea at a time. Holding classes over
:43:06. > :43:10.sandwiches with their crusts cut of Sex for the bedroom, and religion
:43:11. > :43:14.that can be quite inflammatory, and most people don't want to know about
:43:15. > :43:21.the operations of our illnesses. That is helpful, what about mobile
:43:22. > :43:24.phones. They should always be off and out of sight during meals,
:43:25. > :43:29.meetings and parties. The person you are with is the person who is the
:43:30. > :43:32.most important. None of us are indispensable. And very few of us
:43:33. > :43:37.have to answer that text. And texting and talking is so rude, it
:43:38. > :43:47.is like me having conversation with you and completely different with
:43:48. > :43:56.you and it's like I'm ignore norring you. -- ignoring you. We are still
:43:57. > :44:01.animal, the magnetism, and the aura. If they are not concentrating on
:44:02. > :44:06.each other we are not giving that aura of magnetisim. We are wasting a
:44:07. > :44:11.huge opportunity of getting to know each other bear. There is no display
:44:12. > :44:18.in front of it, that is because the display is your smartphone. It is
:44:19. > :44:22.probably going too far to blame the loss of conversation on Click, the
:44:23. > :44:33.tech-fest. What have they to say about it? In speech please not 140.
:44:34. > :44:38.Technologies is changing conversation, if that is the geeks'
:44:39. > :44:42.fault then guilty as charged. Things move on. Continue living your life
:44:43. > :44:47.in a way that is comfortable for you. I'm not a fan of trying to
:44:48. > :44:50.force anyone into the next age. I'm conscious I will be a particular in
:44:51. > :44:55.the mud that doesn't like the way things are going either. Stick with
:44:56. > :45:02.what you are happy with and gradually things will change. Some
:45:03. > :45:12.people will become just so irritaly convenient that you will succumb to
:45:13. > :45:20.it. Do you know this person? I do. Do you know how? I don't know how.
:45:21. > :45:24.Speed dating, nothing so prosaic, they have the talking habit here in
:45:25. > :45:34.Oxford, strangers strike up conversations with one another from
:45:35. > :45:39.a menu of topics. What have you chosen to discuss, something on the
:45:40. > :45:45.menu? The things we are discussing at the moment, is it inevitable that
:45:46. > :45:52.new ideas should meet with resist sense. Back-Jackie was -- Jackie was
:45:53. > :45:58.saying that you force the ideas to prove themselves in that way. I love
:45:59. > :46:02.meeting somebody I met minutes ago and getting a sense from here about
:46:03. > :46:11.everything, from her personal background to her view of on
:46:12. > :46:19.politics. And society. How The Don who oversees the sessions said we
:46:20. > :46:23.need the "what conversation". It something very different from the
:46:24. > :46:30.old one. The old one was to pass the time, to show respect, to do what
:46:31. > :46:34.etiquette demanded, the new conversation has a different
:46:35. > :46:39.purpose, it is to discover who other people are. Do we really want to do
:46:40. > :46:43.that? You can't live in the world without knowing who other people
:46:44. > :46:50.are. This concealment makes interaction impossible. Our goal now
:46:51. > :46:58.is to discover who inhabits the world, individually, one by one. Do
:46:59. > :47:08.you know what if texting and apps are not to overwhelm us, then maybe
:47:09. > :47:14.this conversation may be the last blow for speech. Really? That is
:47:15. > :47:16.interesting. ! Civilised conversation tomorrow night. Until
:47:17. > :47:39.then good night. Plenty more dry, sunny weather to
:47:40. > :47:42.come over the next few days, temperatures above average. Looking
:47:43. > :47:44.at the forecast through the day on