:00:07. > :00:10.the number of OAPs behind bars has doubled in ten years.
:00:11. > :00:12.Rolf Harris, sentenced today, fits the trend -
:00:13. > :00:14.four out of ten of them are sex offenders.
:00:15. > :00:23.Are the jails fit to cope, and does anyone care if they're not?
:00:24. > :00:31.Because I was older, I was perceived to be easy game, so until they got
:00:32. > :00:32.to know you, people would bundle you into your cell and half of your
:00:33. > :00:34.stuff was gone. As Palestinians gather
:00:35. > :00:36.to bury their murdered teenager Newsnight speaks exclusively
:00:37. > :00:47.to the Palestinian group Hamas. Will our new aircraft carrier
:00:48. > :00:49.save the realm? Or is it a truly massive
:00:50. > :00:54.waste of money? Just don't call it a boat, or this
:00:55. > :01:02.man will get very cross! Rolf Harris was given a custodial
:01:03. > :01:06.sentence today of nearly six years. No sooner had it been handed down
:01:07. > :01:09.than the Attorney General received complaints from the public
:01:10. > :01:12.that it was too lenient. The 84-year-old
:01:13. > :01:14.Australian entertainer may not be dwelling on statistics
:01:15. > :01:17.right now, but when he looks around his prison,
:01:18. > :01:20.he will find he's part of a growing trend -
:01:21. > :01:22.two in fact. Four out of ten men who are over
:01:23. > :01:26.60 are in prison for sex offences. And the number
:01:27. > :01:28.of prisoner pensioners Here's Jim Reed
:01:29. > :01:32.on a remarkable phenomenon 84 years old, he'll now serve
:01:33. > :01:50.a near six-year sentence. His victims will finally
:01:51. > :01:52.see some justice. But Harris is just
:01:53. > :01:54.the latest pensioner to be locked up
:01:55. > :01:56.for historic sex abuse. Along with Max Clifford
:01:57. > :01:58.and Stuart Hall, he's part of a wider
:01:59. > :02:00.and rarely reported trend. the fastest-growing category
:02:01. > :02:04.of prisoner is now the elderly. be placed on
:02:05. > :02:11.the vulnerable person unit, and probably in isolation
:02:12. > :02:13.in a cell on his own Andrew, now in his 60s,
:02:14. > :02:17.has just been released after serving four years
:02:18. > :02:21.for sexual assault on another adult. You can imagine him
:02:22. > :02:23.walking onto a wing and everybody singing his songs
:02:24. > :02:27.and shouting things at him. It can be very intimidating, because
:02:28. > :02:30.usually, when you're in your 50s and later, you've been in control
:02:31. > :02:34.of your life most of the time. From that moment on,
:02:35. > :02:38.you become a number. The prison population has not
:02:39. > :02:41.just grown over the last decade DNA evidence and the fresh
:02:42. > :02:46.investigation of historic crimes behind the changing demographics
:02:47. > :02:52.of our criminal justice system. The number of over-60s in prison
:02:53. > :02:56.has jumped 120% Last month, a 94-year-old was jailed
:02:57. > :03:08.for abusing a child in the 1970s. 42% of all older inmates
:03:09. > :03:11.are inside for sex offences, far higher than the wider
:03:12. > :03:15.prison population at 15%. Nobody will want to know you,
:03:16. > :03:18.you are the worst of the worst. If you knowingly associate
:03:19. > :03:21.with a high-profile sex offender, you'll be tarred
:03:22. > :03:23.with the same brush. Other prisoners will shun you
:03:24. > :03:27.or bully you. Did you have direct experience
:03:28. > :03:31.of bullying when you were inside? Because I was older, I was perceived
:03:32. > :03:36.to be more easy, easy game. people would bundle you
:03:37. > :03:40.into your cell and before you realised it
:03:41. > :03:43.half your stuff was gone. Do you report it and get labelled
:03:44. > :03:49.as a grass and get done again? Or just put up with it
:03:50. > :03:54.and try to get on? Longer sentences and
:03:55. > :03:57.an ageing population in general are also adding to the pressure
:03:58. > :04:02.on the prison system. on an older convict
:04:03. > :04:09.than the typical prisoner. have a chronic illness
:04:10. > :04:15.or disability. We could fill
:04:16. > :04:18.eight average size jails simply with prisoners
:04:19. > :04:22.who are over the age of 60. And of course the big problem
:04:23. > :04:24.for the Prison Service is that this demographic
:04:25. > :04:30.is going to become more pronounced, because the second-fastest
:04:31. > :04:32.group of people that we are locking up at the moment
:04:33. > :04:36.are aged between 50 and 59. So by every stretch
:04:37. > :04:40.of the imagination, this is a problem
:04:41. > :04:45.that is going to get worse. Pete was released last year
:04:46. > :04:48.after serving time for murder. Now in his late 70s, he says
:04:49. > :04:52.he's seen prisons age significantly Well, in my experience, there was
:04:53. > :04:59.a great element of resentment amongst quite a few prison officers
:05:00. > :05:02.when managing older prisoners. is quite different
:05:03. > :05:07.from that of younger prisoners. The younger ones are aggressive
:05:08. > :05:16.in-your-face, confrontational. The staff are more used to dealing
:05:17. > :05:22.with that kind of prisoner, A handful of prisons,
:05:23. > :05:25.like Norwich and Leyhill, Whatton near Nottingham
:05:26. > :05:33.has a dedicated end-of-life suite. But the steep staircases and
:05:34. > :05:36.narrow doors of Victorian buildings, were not built for wheelchairs
:05:37. > :05:39.or sticks, or for inmates with diabetes
:05:40. > :05:50.and dementia. I have no problem walking up to a
:05:51. > :05:52.60-year-old or a 70-year-old or a dear old who has committed a violent
:05:53. > :05:55.or sexual offence. is an institution which
:05:56. > :06:00.is designed for the young and cannot really cope
:06:01. > :06:03.with this type of demographic, which is why we have to keep asking
:06:04. > :06:06.the Ministry of Justice, when are they going to produce
:06:07. > :06:24.a national strategy pronounced, specialist geriatric
:06:25. > :06:27.centres cater for the old and dying. Former inmates who work with older
:06:28. > :06:31.prisoners say we need to be looking at the same thing in this country.
:06:32. > :06:36.do we have special prisons for older people, secure care homes
:06:37. > :06:38.If they are going to be given life sentences,
:06:39. > :06:44.The cost to the Prison Service is enormous,
:06:45. > :06:47.so with the longer sentence, there's a cost implication for them,
:06:48. > :06:50.not only whilst they're inside but when they come out.
:06:51. > :06:59.Rolf Harris is likely to be at least 87 by the time he's released.
:07:00. > :07:09.There will be no sympathy for him after the crimes he has committed.
:07:10. > :07:13.But he is just one of many. The prison population is getting older,
:07:14. > :07:16.and that has consequences for society as a whole.
:07:17. > :07:18.Murder was met with murder in the Middle East this week,
:07:19. > :07:21.Old Testament echoes of a truly biblical eye for an eye.
:07:22. > :07:23.Today, Palestinians buried their dead teenager -
:07:24. > :07:25.for the killing of three Israeli teenagers
:07:26. > :07:27.who were themselves buried three days earlier.
:07:28. > :07:30.Today Hamas was quoted as saying the organisation was ready
:07:31. > :07:32.to halt its rocket and mortar attacks on southern Israel
:07:33. > :07:34.if the Israeli military ceased its air raids on Gaza
:07:35. > :07:37.as part of a cease-fire deal brokered by Egyptian officials.
:07:38. > :07:39.We will ask Hamas about that in just a moment.
:07:40. > :07:41.First, our diplomatic editor, Mark Urban,
:07:42. > :07:43.has spent the past few days in the West Bank,
:07:44. > :07:44.where the Israeli teenagers were killed.
:07:45. > :07:48.We can talk to him now from Jerusalem.
:07:49. > :07:56.Mark, are the Israelis any closer to finding the killers?
:07:57. > :08:02.Well, we believe they are, but you know, the fact that this was a
:08:03. > :08:08.Jewish revenge murder, characterise it that way, if you like, of the
:08:09. > :08:13.teenager in Jerusalem, Mohammed Abu Khdair, is not officially confirmed
:08:14. > :08:16.by police here, and that is part of a strategy of slowly releasing the
:08:17. > :08:21.awful truth of what happened in order to minimise the into communal
:08:22. > :08:24.violence that results. So for example, details of horrific
:08:25. > :08:28.injuries to the boy were kept under wraps for a while, and the reason of
:08:29. > :08:33.his body was timed so that it would be after Friday prayers. --
:08:34. > :08:37.release. That was in order to try to reduce the level of violence that
:08:38. > :08:44.might result. Does the Israeli public support the way that Prime
:08:45. > :08:48.Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is dealing with this? Well, this
:08:49. > :08:51.management of this is all part of what the Prime Minister is thought
:08:52. > :08:54.to be doing in trying to keep a lid on the situation, and it is
:08:55. > :08:59.interesting - he is perceived by many as a centrist leader in this
:09:00. > :09:03.respect, shunning the cause of extreme nationalists for drastic,
:09:04. > :09:08.heavy military action against Gaza, against the West Bank. Now, of
:09:09. > :09:12.course, if are you Palestinian, you have a very different perspective on
:09:13. > :09:16.that, particularly in the area of Hebron, where three Israeli
:09:17. > :09:21.teenagers were kidnapped, and where they have been subject to intensive
:09:22. > :09:29.Israeli security operations. When the violence has moved on,
:09:30. > :09:34.families are left with the simple, inconsolable facts of their loss.
:09:35. > :09:40.Last month, in their hunt for three kidnapped teenagers, Israeli forces
:09:41. > :09:48.came to this town near Hebron, and in their food took the life of
:09:49. > :09:52.another teenager, a Palestinian -- their fruitless search. His mother
:09:53. > :09:58.does not believe that any Israeli boys were kidnapped, and she wants
:09:59. > :10:01.revenge. TRANSLATION: Its settlers were really kidnapped, and to me it
:10:02. > :10:06.is still a far-fetched idea, then let them see what I am going
:10:07. > :10:10.through. My heart burned, let them see how that feels, so they will
:10:11. > :10:16.know what it is like and how we suffer. 300 Palestinian sons dying
:10:17. > :10:20.for one Israeli son, why should a Jewish mother not go through what I
:10:21. > :10:24.am going through? They are the settlers, the ones who have taken
:10:25. > :10:31.our land. I wish my son had done the kidnapped.
:10:32. > :10:37.In Jerusalem, there is anger too at the murder of another Palestinian
:10:38. > :10:42.teenager. It is suspected it was a vigilante killing by Jewish
:10:43. > :10:47.extremists, and trying to contain this tit for tat of abductions,
:10:48. > :10:56.Israel's Prime Minister has insisted that if there is to be payback, the
:10:57. > :11:01.state alone should exact date. - it. The foremost right without which
:11:02. > :11:13.the others cannot exist is the right to live, and that is why we pursued
:11:14. > :11:18.the murderers of the three boys They denied them that basic right in
:11:19. > :11:25.such a cruel way. And that is why I unequivocally condemn the murder of
:11:26. > :11:30.a Palestinian youth in Jerusalem two days ago.
:11:31. > :11:36.In Hebron, where settlers and Palestinians live cheek by jowl the
:11:37. > :11:40.risk of further violence is obvious. For Israelis, continued operations
:11:41. > :11:47.aimed at finding the kidnappers or harming Hamas are a clear necessity.
:11:48. > :11:52.But they are full of risk. We were summoned to the Hebron neighbourhood
:11:53. > :11:56.where we were told Israeli troops had trashed the milk plant on
:11:57. > :12:03.Wednesday night. There we found a group of protesting orphans, a field
:12:04. > :12:08.day for the local media. The plant belongs to a religious charity set
:12:09. > :12:15.up to help the orphans. The Israelis have stripped out its equipment
:12:16. > :12:20.So why would they have carried off an entire milk production plant
:12:21. > :12:23.Well, Israelis don't have much regard for Palestinian opinion, they
:12:24. > :12:27.know they are already highly unpopular here, but perhaps they
:12:28. > :12:32.were hoping to impress domestic Israeli opinion, because this plant
:12:33. > :12:37.is largely owned by a religious charity which the Israelis say have
:12:38. > :12:44.been used to channel funds towards Hamas and other militant movements.
:12:45. > :12:50.So we asked the head of the charity whether he was a Hamas fundraiser.
:12:51. > :12:54.These allegations are false and there is no proof or reality to
:12:55. > :12:59.them. They are all completely contrary to the aims and mission of
:13:00. > :13:03.this organisation. Hamas uses this network to
:13:04. > :13:08.indoctrinate Palestinians... The Israeli response, he would say that,
:13:09. > :13:12.wouldn't he? They insisted steel Newsnight that the plant was run by
:13:13. > :13:16.Hamas activists and their move against it was part of a drive
:13:17. > :13:21.against the religious charities Even if that is right, imagine
:13:22. > :13:28.smashing up the milk plant would only embitter local opinion. But
:13:29. > :13:35.against an underground organisation like Hamas in the West Bank there
:13:36. > :13:40.are a few obvious targets. Hamas is not a building that can be destroyed
:13:41. > :13:46.by laser-guided missiles not a building that can be destroyed
:13:47. > :13:53.by laser-guided or by large army bulldozers. Hamas lives in the
:13:54. > :14:00.hearts of millions of people who reject the Israeli occupation. The
:14:01. > :14:05.Israeli security clamp-down around Hebron continues, and the
:14:06. > :14:11.Palestinian authority's security forces are left with little more to
:14:12. > :14:14.do than direct the traffic. So the mayor, part of the Fatah faction
:14:15. > :14:19.that supports dialogue, is left feeling humiliated and longing for
:14:20. > :14:22.the resumption of a meaningful peace process.
:14:23. > :14:27.I urge the international community and the United Nations,
:14:28. > :14:31.really to push hard to push hard on the Israeli government so that this
:14:32. > :14:34.issue can be taken seriously and we as Palestinians, as I said, we are
:14:35. > :14:41.The day and the Ramadan fast draw to an end
:14:42. > :14:47.These are difficult times here for the crankiness
:14:48. > :14:49.of abstinence combines with the resentment of Israelis
:14:50. > :14:57.I'm working to teach our youth how to react in an unviolent way.
:14:58. > :15:00.But what I do when big violence is happening from the other side?
:15:01. > :15:02.I can't tell them, please what are you doing.
:15:03. > :15:09.Both of us will be lose in the situation.
:15:10. > :15:16.Reaching no solution point is my nightmare.
:15:17. > :15:18.Somewhere around here those who kidnapped and
:15:19. > :15:21.murdered three Israeli teens could be hiding, as well as armed cells
:15:22. > :15:26.No western country doubts Israel's right to tackle this threat,
:15:27. > :15:28.but the operations of the past few weeks have brought
:15:29. > :15:52.That was Mark Urban in the West Bank. Osama Hamdan is the foreign
:15:53. > :15:58.affairs spokesman for Hamas based in Lebanon. Thank you for your time
:15:59. > :16:05.tonight on Newsnightment we heard a ceasefire has been declared with
:16:06. > :16:14.Egypt's help, is that right? Well, it's not confirmed yet. There is an
:16:15. > :16:17.Egyptian (inaudible) to do that The Israelis broke the last ceasefire.
:16:18. > :16:21.We are still waiting to have confirmation from the Egyptian side
:16:22. > :16:28.and some guarantees the Israelis will not attack after that. They
:16:29. > :16:33.haven't agreed a ceasefire yet then? Well, it's on the Israeli side. We
:16:34. > :16:36.are still waiting. Hamas has been blamed for the abduction of the
:16:37. > :16:45.Israeli teenagers we saw in Mark's film. Who do you believe was behind
:16:46. > :16:50.that abduction and murder? Well Hamas has declared clearly, from the
:16:51. > :16:57.highest level in Hamas, that we have no information about what exactly
:16:58. > :17:01.happened in the West Bank and what had happened with those Israelis.
:17:02. > :17:08.This is the fact, which everyone has to know. The Israeli side, until
:17:09. > :17:14.now, did not provide any (inaudible). The Israelis have used
:17:15. > :17:19.that story to arrest, kill, and arrest hundreds of Palestinians
:17:20. > :17:24.destroying houses, without any clue that the Palestinians are connected
:17:25. > :17:37.to that issue. And here we are seeing a new uprising for the
:17:38. > :17:42.(inaudible) inside Israel. What had happened, he was kidnapped, shot. He
:17:43. > :17:51.was forced to swallow gasoline then he was burnt alive to death. Let me
:17:52. > :17:57.take this step-by-step. Do you condemn, first of all, the murder of
:17:58. > :18:01.the teenager. We heard Netanyahu condemning the murder of the
:18:02. > :18:06.Palestinian boy. Do you condemn the murder of the Israelis? Netanyahu is
:18:07. > :18:10.occupying our lands. Netanyahu is occupying the Palestinian lands Do
:18:11. > :18:19.you condemn the murder of the teenage boys? In 2013. In 2013, 400
:18:20. > :18:23.attacks by the settlers were against the Palestinians in the West Bank.
:18:24. > :18:29.You don't condemn the murder of the boys. It's a simple question? Excuse
:18:30. > :18:32.me. It's not a fair question to ask Palestinians who are under
:18:33. > :18:37.occupation and being killed every day about their ideas towards the
:18:38. > :18:42.occupiers. It's - the fair question is, what about the occupation?
:18:43. > :18:45.No-one has the right to escape from the major problem. The problem is
:18:46. > :18:51.the occupation. I believe everyone has to condemn the occupation and
:18:52. > :18:56.push Israel to withdraw from the Palestinian lands and make pressure
:18:57. > :19:01.on Netanyahu not to sabotage and destroy the peace process and taking
:19:02. > :19:06.over the Palestinian lands. The Israeli Foreign Ministry said 1 200
:19:07. > :19:09.people have been killed in violence and terrorism since 2000. Clearly,
:19:10. > :19:17.there are deaths on both sides. Have you given up on a two-state solution
:19:18. > :19:22.now? I think Netanyahu is destroying the two-state solution - What about
:19:23. > :19:29.you? No-one can talk about two-state solution. I believe Abbas is
:19:30. > :19:33.insisting on the two-state solution he was supported by the
:19:34. > :19:40.organisations - You say "chance would you like to - Listen, and
:19:41. > :19:42.listen, well, I'd like to see a Palestinian independent sovereign
:19:43. > :19:45.state on Palestinian lands. I'm not in favour of talking about Israeli
:19:46. > :19:49.side. We are under occupation. You have to ask the Israelis whether
:19:50. > :19:52.they are ready to give up their occupation for the Palestinian lands
:19:53. > :19:56.or not? What do you mean, you are not in favour of talking about do
:19:57. > :20:05.you think that Israel should carry on existing as a state? Well, the
:20:06. > :20:09.fairer question is to ask about the Palestinian people and how they are
:20:10. > :20:15.suffering under the occupation. You can't ask the Palestinians who are
:20:16. > :20:19.being killed every day about their ideas about Israel. The major idea
:20:20. > :20:22.now is to resist the occupation and make an end for this occupation
:20:23. > :20:24.now is to resist the occupation and that is not happening, you
:20:25. > :20:25.now is to resist the occupation and the Palestinians any questions. The
:20:26. > :20:28.Palestinians are asking the questions about the international
:20:29. > :20:33.community. The position of the international community towards
:20:34. > :20:37.their cause. The Palestinians are asking about what does it mean, the
:20:38. > :20:42.international resolution, the international resolutions if it s
:20:43. > :20:45.not forcing the Israelis to withdraw from their hands and stopping the
:20:46. > :20:48.killing of the Palestinians. We will ask the same questions to the
:20:49. > :20:57.Israelis, as I'm sure you know. Thank you very much indeed.
:20:58. > :21:00.It seems slightly mean spirited - given the Royal turnout, the panoply
:21:01. > :21:06.and the ?6.2 billion price tag to point out that the new aircraft
:21:07. > :21:08.carrier will not be carrying any aircraft for some time.
:21:09. > :21:13.That's jobs in Scotland before a referendum, you understand.
:21:14. > :21:16.It's given the nation a sense of its naval pride once again, remind
:21:17. > :21:19.the world of our commitment to the defence industry and indeed defence.
:21:20. > :21:22.But returning, just for a minute, to the ?6.2 billion price tag, can
:21:23. > :21:28.Here's our policy editor, Chris Cook.
:21:29. > :21:37.The Second World War, the Falklands, the Balkans, the Gulf, Afghanistan.
:21:38. > :21:44.Scores of humanitarian efforts. Aircraft carriers are main stays of
:21:45. > :21:48.British sea power. Today, one Queen Elizabeth christened another. Le a
:21:49. > :21:54.new carrier was named in Rosyth the first of two on the production line.
:21:55. > :22:00.These ships are expensive, costing ?6 billion a pair. They do last a
:22:01. > :22:06.long time. NEWS REEL:
:22:07. > :22:11.I name this ship... The Queen named HMS Eagle back in 19 46. A ship that
:22:12. > :22:15.was commissioned by Churchill's wartime government and Britain has
:22:16. > :22:24.replaced its carriers only once since then. The new ship is expected
:22:25. > :22:29.to last in service into the 20 60s. The Queen Elizabeth, and its sister,
:22:30. > :22:34.the much less complete Prince of Wales, are vast. A deck area of two
:22:35. > :22:39.football pitches. It's not as big as the Chinese carrier, nor the US
:22:40. > :22:43.Super carriers. It's still huge It is also a bit of a moment for
:22:44. > :22:53.Britain, which is currently without an aircraft carrier that can field
:22:54. > :23:00.planes. There are questions over the effectiveness of the investment
:23:01. > :23:05.First, the the Queen Elizabeth won't be kited out until 2020. The
:23:06. > :23:10.Government has to decide whether to sell or mothball The Prince of
:23:11. > :23:16.Wales. Only 48 of the F35 planes it will fly off the ships are on order.
:23:17. > :23:21.More will come, but we don't know how many. If we get these ships
:23:22. > :23:28.kited out well, do we have the ships that we need to protect the
:23:29. > :23:34.carriers? The science, in terms of protecting a carrier, requires a
:23:35. > :23:46.force of between five and seven destroyers alone. A similar size
:23:47. > :23:50.number of frigates. Now, the UK only possesses 19 frigates and destroyers
:23:51. > :23:54.combined. They are probably isn t the number of ships that you require
:23:55. > :24:00.to protect this carrier if you don't want to associate some sort of risk
:24:01. > :24:04.with it. So if we don't spend money on the planes that make carriers
:24:05. > :24:12.into weapons, or the supporting ships that allow them to roam, might
:24:13. > :24:18.this be remembered as a national vanity project?
:24:19. > :24:20.Joining me now, Admiral Lord West, former First Sea Lord,
:24:21. > :24:23.and Professor Mary Kaldor, Professor of Global Governance, at LSE.
:24:24. > :24:33.Thank you for coming in. Lord West what is the point of this ship? We
:24:34. > :24:37.can deploy military power globally. We are still a global nation. We are
:24:38. > :24:41.the sixth richest country in the world. Our wealth depends on the
:24:42. > :24:42.fact we run global shipping from the UK.
:24:43. > :24:47.world. Our wealth depends on the fact we run global That is crucial
:24:48. > :24:49.to the wealth of the global village. Biggest European investor in most
:24:50. > :24:53.parts of the world. The stability of the globe is very, very important to
:24:54. > :24:59.us. It requires most of the Royal Navy to support it and protect it
:25:00. > :25:05.The young man speaking, I'm able to call him a "young man" got his
:25:06. > :25:11.figures wrong. You actually need - I have done it at sea. You need two
:25:12. > :25:15.type 45's with three or four ASW frigates or one or two nuclear
:25:16. > :25:21.submarines. We can provide that force. We have too few ships, we
:25:22. > :25:26.have had too many cuts for many years. Even when we did something,
:25:27. > :25:30.into Sierra Leone, it was with a ship half that size? That force we
:25:31. > :25:33.are talking about there is if you fight against someone like the
:25:34. > :25:36.Chinese. Is that what we have planned? We don't know what will
:25:37. > :25:39.happen. The great thing in the military you don't know what will
:25:40. > :25:43.happen. People will tell me - you will never have to fight anyone
:25:44. > :25:47.apart from the solve yets. I was sunk in the Falklands. None of us
:25:48. > :25:51.know what will happen. The military is to be ready for the unknown. It's
:25:52. > :25:55.about an important projection of our power and our place in the world as
:25:56. > :26:00.well as protecting against the unknown, isn't it sf Well, that is
:26:01. > :26:04.what it is meant to be about. I think our place in the world would
:26:05. > :26:11.be better assured if we could really play and continue to play an active
:26:12. > :26:16.role in all kinds of humanitarian crises, conflicts, natural disasters
:26:17. > :26:20.and the problem with this is that it so expensive. Everything is focussed
:26:21. > :26:26.on these two carriers, that we're having to cut everything that might
:26:27. > :26:28.be useful for these other purposes. The humanitarian argument,
:26:29. > :26:36.presumably, you would get rid of all spending on defence then, would you?
:26:37. > :26:42.I would get rid of spending on what I call "military technology" which
:26:43. > :26:48.the aircraft carrier. What does that mean in layman's terms? The aircraft
:26:49. > :26:52.carrier, the Eurofighter, Trident, which are - which become more and
:26:53. > :26:59.more expensive with every generation and less and less useful. They
:27:00. > :27:04.developed beyond the point of cost effectiveness. So much is focussed
:27:05. > :27:12.on them they become complex. They need more and more parts. Liable to
:27:13. > :27:16.break down and not to work. The everything else is squeezed. I think
:27:17. > :27:20.they are about what we used to call, during the Cold War, the military
:27:21. > :27:25.industrial complex. About a combination of the armed forces
:27:26. > :27:30.wanting to reassert their traditional roles and us wanting
:27:31. > :27:34.defence and industrial capacity to meet those roles. I think that is
:27:35. > :27:38.totally run. The carriers will run better than the old carriers. Things
:27:39. > :27:48.used to break down more than they do now. What is the capital cost per
:27:49. > :27:52.year, ?6 million. ?1 trillion the West have spent in aid in the Horn
:27:53. > :27:55.of Africa. The average wealth of each person has gone down. The only
:27:56. > :28:01.way to get to places to help them out, very often when there is a
:28:02. > :28:05.disaster is by sea in a ship. This carrier will be brilliant at that.
:28:06. > :28:11.That is an argument in favour of humanitarian usefulness. If you
:28:12. > :28:16.relinquish this and we became a less valuable partner in - We wouldn t.
:28:17. > :28:21.We are good at these things. We had to cut the army. You really need
:28:22. > :28:25.people. You need a mixture of civilian and military cape yablts.
:28:26. > :28:32.You need lower tech and a lot more of it. Transport capabilities. You
:28:33. > :28:39.can't swim to where these happens. You could take smaller boats? Ships
:28:40. > :28:43.please. The scale of the ship. It isn't, it's ?6 million a year, as a
:28:44. > :28:47.capital cost for this. ?6 million a year is nothing. What about the
:28:48. > :28:52.jobs? 10,000 jobs sustained on a project like that. Doesn't it wash
:28:53. > :28:57.its face with that number alone If you put the money into investment
:28:58. > :29:01.into energy efficiency or renewable energy, you would not only create
:29:02. > :29:06.the same number of jobs it would have a multiplier effect on growth.
:29:07. > :29:09.It would be much more effective at creating jobs. The military
:29:10. > :29:15.industrial complex operates - This is pie in the sky. This is pie in
:29:16. > :29:18.the sky. Perhaps fighting a war with the Chinese, wouldn't that be a
:29:19. > :29:23.cyber war? We don't know what will happen. You need to have equipment -
:29:24. > :29:28.in the military you need to plan for the unexpected. ?6 billion? ?6
:29:29. > :29:31.million over a year over 50 years is not a lot of money. We have run out.
:29:32. > :29:36.I'm sorry. Thank you very much indeed. That is it for tonight. We
:29:37. > :29:39.leave you with news of a psychology experiment at Harvard University
:29:40. > :29:44.which revealed that most men, and some women, would choose to give
:29:45. > :29:46.themselves painful electric shocks rather than being bored for 15
:29:47. > :30:17.minutes. At Newsnight we are rather than being bored for 15
:30:18. > :30:20.ara? No, lone rather than being bored for 15
:30:21. > :30:45.have been rain. he dbizzle eases, the cloud
:30:46. > :31:03.plandy of senny rpells rain. he dbizzle eases, the cloud
:31:04. > :31:10.showers for rain. he dbizzle eases, the cloud
:31:11. > :31:21.Isles, more disappointing here in