:00:00. > :00:11.In an exclusive interview, the Chief Inspector of prisons tell us
:00:12. > :00:14.Newsnight that he's concerned about the steep increase in jail suicides.
:00:15. > :00:19.And the overall conditions in prisons. We are seeing a lot more
:00:20. > :00:21.prisons that aren't meeting an acceptable standard across a range
:00:22. > :00:26.of things that we look at. And I go to most of these inspections and I
:00:27. > :00:30.see with my own eyes a deterioration. I will be speaking to
:00:31. > :00:35.the man who runs our prisons in England and Wales. Newsnight exposes
:00:36. > :00:40.the organisations unwittingly advertising alongside Jihadi videos
:00:41. > :00:46.on-line, including Oxfam and the National Citizens Service, as a
:00:47. > :00:52.result they have both withdrawn their ads. When they strike tomorrow
:00:53. > :00:55.teachers reserve ire for Michael Gove's reform, he don't seem to like
:00:56. > :00:59.them either. There are a small group of people and tend to be
:01:00. > :01:02.ideolgically motivated opposed to what we are doing. There is an
:01:03. > :01:06.overwhelming majority of teachers doing the right thing. We will
:01:07. > :01:09.debate the strikes with the General Secretary of the NUT and cheerleader
:01:10. > :01:19.for Michael Gove's reforms who is opening his own free school.
:01:20. > :01:23.They once stood for all that was beautiful in the beautiful game,
:01:24. > :01:34.last night they fell to the uglyist of defeat, will Brazil ever get over
:01:35. > :01:39.the trauma. Good evening, the Chief Inspector of
:01:40. > :01:43.prisons in England and Wales has spoken exclusively to Newsnight and
:01:44. > :01:47.very frankly about his inspection findings. The deteriorating state of
:01:48. > :01:52.the prison climate, particularly over the last few months, increased
:01:53. > :01:55.suicide, more violence, self-harm, more overcrowding, more
:01:56. > :01:58.unpredictable regimes. He paints a picture of finding prisoners hiding
:01:59. > :02:02.in different bits of the jails, scared of the high levels of
:02:03. > :02:07.violence and calls for action. With the exclusive new research from the
:02:08. > :02:17.Howard League, our investigations correspondent reports.
:02:18. > :02:23.He had visible scars on his neck from the first time. The first time
:02:24. > :02:27.he did it he did it with shoelaces, and they were very deep, and any
:02:28. > :02:31.time he went out he used to ask me to put concealer on it to cover them
:02:32. > :02:35.up, because he didn't like people seeing them. You believe it would
:02:36. > :02:40.have been obvious to anyone? You couldn't miss them. It would have
:02:41. > :02:49.been obvious that he was someone who was a troubled individual and needed
:02:50. > :02:54.extra care? Definitely. Greg was 18, he was in prison for a second time,
:02:55. > :02:58.the first had been for threatening someone with a dumbbell handle, the
:02:59. > :03:03.second he was on remand after being found carrying a knife. Four weeks
:03:04. > :03:11.ago prison officers found him dead in his cell. Greg wasn't just
:03:12. > :03:15.naughty, I always thought he had some sort of mental health problem.
:03:16. > :03:19.If that was me and I was in that job I would have had him on suicide
:03:20. > :03:33.watch, given his previous history. How long had he been in the prison
:03:34. > :03:41.before he died? Two nights? What is going on behind the UK's prison
:03:42. > :03:45.walls? In an exclusive interview the Chief Inspector of Prisons has told
:03:46. > :03:49.Newsnight of his fears of a deep and worrying malaise. Understaffed and
:03:50. > :03:53.overpopulated campaigners fear our prisons are fast spiralling out of
:03:54. > :04:00.control. Some even say that recent cuts have cost prisoners' lives.
:04:01. > :04:05.Prison suicides hit a high of 96 in 2004, but started to fall again over
:04:06. > :04:12.the rest of the decade. Now they, as well as incidents of self-harm are
:04:13. > :04:18.on the rise again. In 2012 there were 60 suicides in 2013 there were
:04:19. > :04:22.74. Exclusive figures seen by Newsnight, compiled by the Howard
:04:23. > :04:26.League for Penal Reform show they are on course to rise again this
:04:27. > :04:30.year too. They show there were 42 suicides in the first six months of
:04:31. > :04:37.this year, that compares to 30 in the same period last year. This is
:04:38. > :04:44.beyond a crisis, this is prisons now in meltdown. I really worry about
:04:45. > :04:48.staff and prisoners over the summer and I worry about the consequences
:04:49. > :04:53.for the public because people will come out of prison so bitter, so
:04:54. > :04:59.angry, so frightened, so violent, that they will inflict that misery
:05:00. > :05:04.on the rest of us. For the Chief Inspector of Prisons it is not just
:05:05. > :05:10.about suicides. I think they are an indication of wider problems in the
:05:11. > :05:14.Prison Service, and indications of a system that is under growing
:05:15. > :05:17.pressure. It is not acceptable we have this rate of suicides in
:05:18. > :05:21.prison. You go to prisons all the way around the country, have you
:05:22. > :05:26.noticed any changes across the board over the last few months? Certainly
:05:27. > :05:32.if you look at, since the beginning of this year, our inspection
:05:33. > :05:36.findings have dropped significantly. We are seeing a lot more prisons
:05:37. > :05:39.that aren't now meeting an acceptable standard across the range
:05:40. > :05:45.of things we look at. And I go to most of these inspections and I see
:05:46. > :05:49.with my own eyes a deterioration. Tomorrow's report will show the
:05:50. > :05:56.number of prison officers has dropped from 27,000 in 2010 to
:05:57. > :06:04.19,000. A 30% cut. Take Wandsworth, four years ago it had 427 staff
:06:05. > :06:11.looking after 1,603 prisoners. As of last September it had 270 staff, the
:06:12. > :06:15.number of inmates now is almost identical. Ministers are now having
:06:16. > :06:20.to rehire staff to cover the gaps. Gaps that come as no surprise to
:06:21. > :06:24.prison governors. We were saying that we were heading for a shortage
:06:25. > :06:30.some time before the Prison Service reacted to it. I think that they
:06:31. > :06:38.were slow in starting the recruitment drive. This is Kevin
:06:39. > :06:43.Scarlet, he died in prison just over a year ago. A coroner has already
:06:44. > :06:49.been highly critical of Kevin's treatment in Wood Hill Prison. He
:06:50. > :06:53.said Kevin's risk of suicide was not properly assessed and he should have
:06:54. > :06:58.been allocated to a safer cell, Kevin too had previously attempted
:06:59. > :07:02.suicide. If he had been in a safer cell, closer to the wing officers,
:07:03. > :07:06.he would have been under more supervision with less ligature
:07:07. > :07:11.points, so he wouldn't have been able to tie up a ligature. Had you
:07:12. > :07:16.assumed that Kevin would be safe in prison? Yes, that is the assumption.
:07:17. > :07:21.At the end of the day the Ministry of Justice do have a duty of care to
:07:22. > :07:25.keep these prisoners safe, whether from themselves or other prisoners.
:07:26. > :07:30.There are processes in place to aid them in this. If they use the
:07:31. > :07:36.processes properly, I believe Kevin would still be here. Justice
:07:37. > :07:41.Secretary Chris Grayling is known for talking tough, he recently
:07:42. > :07:45.talked about a 10. 30 lights out for young offenders. While hardliners
:07:46. > :07:51.have public support, insiders say they risk creating unrest. They may
:07:52. > :07:56.whisper it but prison governors admit our jails are run on consent
:07:57. > :08:00.not coercion, they say 10% of inmates are never trouble, and
:08:01. > :08:04.another ten are always in trouble, and the rest they will play along if
:08:05. > :08:11.they think the regime is fair. If they don't, if you lose them, then
:08:12. > :08:14.our jails become ungovernable. So fewer political statements from the
:08:15. > :08:18.Justice Secretary would be welcomed by your members? Absolutely. I think
:08:19. > :08:27.it would be nice if statements were factual and neutral and not
:08:28. > :08:30.preorive. I don't know if that is an unrealistic wish. It would be really
:08:31. > :08:38.useful to have the politics taken out of prisons. While campaigners
:08:39. > :08:42.uses words to put their case, the Prison Service uses them to counter
:08:43. > :08:45.it. There is a danger that the Prison Service and the politicians
:08:46. > :08:50.in charge in a sense overanalyse the figures and actually miss what is
:08:51. > :08:54.under their noses on the wings, which sometimes I think people being
:08:55. > :08:58.held in deplorable conditions, who are suicidal, who don't have
:08:59. > :09:01.anything to do and who don't have anyone to talk to. So I think we
:09:02. > :09:09.need to concentrate on what's obvious in front of our noses and
:09:10. > :09:16.sort that. We had Amazing Grace, we sang that. Karen says she owes it to
:09:17. > :09:20.her son to prove his death was avoidable. For everyone involved in
:09:21. > :09:25.prisons there is no greater challenge, how to stop prisoners
:09:26. > :09:29.dying in our jails. Earlier I went to interview the man
:09:30. > :09:34.who runs prisons in England and Wales, the chief executive of the
:09:35. > :09:39.National Offender Management Service, Michael Spur. The Chief
:09:40. > :09:43.Inspector of Prisons has told Newsnight that he's very worried
:09:44. > :09:46.about the steep rise in prison suicides, are you? Of course I'm
:09:47. > :09:50.worried. Any increase in suicides has to be a worry, because that
:09:51. > :09:55.involves somebody's life and families and people losing their
:09:56. > :10:00.lives, that has got to be a worry. From 42 in June 2000 this year, from
:10:01. > :10:03.30 in the same period last year, it is almost half again. You say you
:10:04. > :10:09.are worried but what are you actually doing about it? We have
:10:10. > :10:12.reduced the level of suicides, that has been a really important and
:10:13. > :10:16.positive movement over the last ten years. We have now gone up again,
:10:17. > :10:22.and we are back to a let of suicides. A 50% increase in the last
:10:23. > :10:26.two years? We are back to 2007 levels. That is worrying. We have
:10:27. > :10:31.reinforced all the things we have done over recent years to bring the
:10:32. > :10:37.suicide rate down. It is complicated and doesn't lend itself to simple
:10:38. > :10:40.solutions. 215 deaths in custody last year, the highest number since
:10:41. > :10:44.2001 and you are trying to operate with fewer staff, it is like one
:10:45. > :10:48.hand tied behind your back? We are operating with fewer staff and 16
:10:49. > :10:52.fewer prisons and we have tight financial constraints as all aspects
:10:53. > :10:56.of the public sector have. The Chief Inspector of Prisons told Newsnight
:10:57. > :10:59.since the start of the year the inspection findings have dropped
:11:00. > :11:03.considerably, he sees with his own eyes a deterioration, so if you put
:11:04. > :11:07.together the Ministry of Justice's own data about violence, suicide and
:11:08. > :11:11.self-harm, with the overall inspection findings and he's clear
:11:12. > :11:15.the situation has deteriorated over the last few months and he says
:11:16. > :11:19.there needs to be action to address it. Why is this happening? Over the
:11:20. > :11:23.last six months we have studied with additional pressure, the population
:11:24. > :11:26.has gone up greater than anticipated. At the same time we
:11:27. > :11:29.have ended up with fewer staff than we need, actually. That is partly
:11:30. > :11:32.because there has been a greater turnover in the south-east because
:11:33. > :11:37.the economy has picked up. It is also because we have chosen to put
:11:38. > :11:42.700 posts back into prisons. We have taken action. We have taken action
:11:43. > :11:47.to recruit staff needily from August and former staff on temporary
:11:48. > :11:53.contracts and we are recruiting 1600 staff this year. So the Chief
:11:54. > :11:57.Inspector is right, there has been some deterioration, but have we
:11:58. > :12:01.taken action? Absolutely. Do you accept you should have fought harder
:12:02. > :12:05.not to be below that number, that you had budget cuts that were too
:12:06. > :12:09.deep? I don't accept that. I accept that events have happened which have
:12:10. > :12:13.meant that we have had to respond urgently to those events and we are
:12:14. > :12:16.responding by recruiting more staff. That is because we put the priority
:12:17. > :12:20.on safety and security and decently and we're not simply looking to
:12:21. > :12:26.drive savings out where we can put people can risk. How many prisoners
:12:27. > :12:33.are sharing cells designed for one prisoner? About 23% of the
:12:34. > :12:38.population are in crowded conditions sharing cells. So one in five
:12:39. > :12:45.prisoners is in a crowded cell? Yes. In 2014? I would like no crowding in
:12:46. > :12:48.prisons but we have had it as long as I have been in the Prison Service
:12:49. > :12:53.for 30 years. The crowding we have today is lower than for the last ten
:12:54. > :12:56.years. Of course I would like a position where we wouldn't have
:12:57. > :13:01.anyone in crowded cells, can we manage people in crowded cells,
:13:02. > :13:08.safely, yes. The Ministry of Justice budget cuts are going to be ?2. 4
:13:09. > :13:13.billion leading up to 2016, you are a major part of the Ministry of
:13:14. > :13:17.Justice, are you taking more budget cuts in the service next year? We
:13:18. > :13:21.are having to make over the Spending Review period about 25% budget
:13:22. > :13:26.reduction. That is across prisons, probation and my headquarters and we
:13:27. > :13:30.are on track to deliver that, but we are delivering it by ensuring that
:13:31. > :13:35.we're working differently by taking sensible action to reconfigure the
:13:36. > :13:41.estate, which means fewer prisons. You have 4,500 fewer prisoner places
:13:42. > :13:47.than you need at the moment, even with the two prises that are
:13:48. > :13:49.private? We have enough places for all the prisoners we have at the
:13:50. > :13:53.moment. You haven't if you have overcrowding? Crowding has been a
:13:54. > :13:57.feature of the system for 30 years plus. So it is acceptable? It is not
:13:58. > :14:01.acceptable, but to get rid of overcrowding would cost ?900
:14:02. > :14:05.million, which we do not have. We are retaining the level of
:14:06. > :14:09.overcrowding, that is not ideal. We are not expanding it, it is lower
:14:10. > :14:13.than in the last ten years and it is not ideal. But it is manageable as
:14:14. > :14:18.it has been in the system for many years. Of course I would like not to
:14:19. > :14:22.have that, but we don't have the ?900 million enabling us to get rid
:14:23. > :14:26.of it. We can't have a modern Prison Service? I would love the
:14:27. > :14:29.opportunity to have no overcrowding, realistically with the financial
:14:30. > :14:32.position the country is in, ?900 million to eradicate overcrowding,
:14:33. > :14:38.much as I would love to have it, isn't something that is realistic at
:14:39. > :14:42.the moment. Thank you very much. The two British Jihadis who
:14:43. > :14:46.yesterday admitted to preparing acts of terrorism were allegedly
:14:47. > :14:53.radicalised on-line. In Jihadi videos from ISIS and other extremist
:14:54. > :14:56.groups have become prime tools for radicalising Muslims. The companies
:14:57. > :15:00.that host the videos have to bear the costs which they recoup by
:15:01. > :15:05.selling adverts. Newsnight has found that charity and even Government ads
:15:06. > :15:11.have been running before some Jihadi video, not the sort of stuff that
:15:12. > :15:17.any advertisers would want to be associated with. Your summer needs
:15:18. > :15:20.all things NCS. Searching for something. How did these happy
:15:21. > :15:32.smiling faces in an advert for a good cause end up on the Internet
:15:33. > :15:39.next to this. Jihadi videos can be brutal. Shocking. Designed not just
:15:40. > :15:45.to attract support, but to help persuade young people to fight.
:15:46. > :15:51.Video uploaded from anywhere, whether the frontline or even from a
:15:52. > :15:56.radical preacher's phone. But look for them... And you will quickly
:15:57. > :16:00.find something else too. So that's the little tearse of some of the fun
:16:01. > :16:06.you could have with NCS, be sure to share your summer. We found adverts
:16:07. > :16:11.funded with tax-payers' cash popping up before these videos. There is one
:16:12. > :16:14.for the National Citizens Service, the coalition's modern-day
:16:15. > :16:20.equivalent of national service. It is meant to be improving for young
:16:21. > :16:27.people and society alike. And hardly sits comfortably next to these
:16:28. > :16:31.messages designed to promote Jihad. We also found adverts from charities
:16:32. > :16:38.like Oxfam, multinational companies, and even the BBC. All becoming
:16:39. > :16:43.unwitting on-line neighbours to extremists. Jihadis who upload the
:16:44. > :16:48.videos to the web could even be making money from them. Without the
:16:49. > :16:52.advertisers' knowledge their ads end up alongside in a sort of commercial
:16:53. > :16:59.accident. If I want to advertise on YouTube, I pay YouTube, they keep a
:17:00. > :17:03.large chunk of it and they give the rest to whoever the person who
:17:04. > :17:06.uploaded the video that the ads are being run against. If you think
:17:07. > :17:10.about how much content is being uploaded to YouTube, it is about 70
:17:11. > :17:14.hours every minute, or something crazy like that. Of course you can't
:17:15. > :17:17.police what is being advertised against every single video. On the
:17:18. > :17:23.other hand, you know, you could say it is incumbent upon YouTube to make
:17:24. > :17:27.sure that ads aren't being run against questionable, or next to
:17:28. > :17:33.questionable content. In response to what we want the Citizens Service
:17:34. > :17:38.suspended their account with YouTube temporarily, the ad has been removed
:17:39. > :17:43.from the video. Oxfam says it was not acceptable, their ad has been
:17:44. > :17:50.removed. The BBC says it will re-think its ad policy. Increasingly
:17:51. > :17:54.it is a way of spreading extremism on YouTube. One Jihadist we have
:17:55. > :18:01.spoken to says he considers on-line media half of Jihad. The unfortunate
:18:02. > :18:04.positions of these media side-by-side is clearly inadvertent,
:18:05. > :18:08.but social media and the funding from it does really matter. One
:18:09. > :18:14.British man, who has been making radical videos for years has told
:18:15. > :18:26.Newsnight, when it comes to Jihad your Samsung S5 is as important as
:18:27. > :18:30.your AK-46. 47. YouTube says they will remove video that is violate
:18:31. > :18:36.their policies. Another website told us they take action quickly and have
:18:37. > :18:41.taken one down as a result of our findings. Video content is important
:18:42. > :18:45.for Jihadist movements, it is emotive, and it be powerful for
:18:46. > :18:51.viewers watching it. On its own it is not really enough to radicalise a
:18:52. > :18:55.young man or young woman into violent action. But when it is mixed
:18:56. > :19:02.with other factors it can certainly facilitate or speed it up or
:19:03. > :19:06.encourage people to act. However effective the increasing ease and
:19:07. > :19:12.falling costs of technology are making it simpler and simpler for
:19:13. > :19:16.extremists to use dramatic videos as calls to arm, propaganda just for a
:19:17. > :19:21.matter of pennies. With more and more advertising run automatically,
:19:22. > :19:28.where images end up is increasingly decided by machine. Whatever content
:19:29. > :19:37.is posted, it is growing faster than we can keep up.
:19:38. > :19:41.Amongst the expectant million public sectors striking tomorrow over pay
:19:42. > :19:44.and tensions and jobs, will be teachers for whom there is an added
:19:45. > :19:49.furious protest against Michael Gove's signature education reforms
:19:50. > :19:52.which have delivered approval for 331 free schools so far in England
:19:53. > :19:55.and a new curriculum. With perfect timing, as the teachers are standing
:19:56. > :19:59.in the picket lines, the Education Secretary will be hosting a global
:20:00. > :20:03.summit in London for education reformers, ahead of it he wrote in
:20:04. > :20:08.today's Telegraph, seeming to suggest his reforms of equivalent
:20:09. > :20:15.magnitude to the Thatcher economic reforms in the 1980s.
:20:16. > :20:19.If Michael Gove can remain in his job until the next election, he will
:20:20. > :20:25.have become the longest-serving Education Secretary in modern times,
:20:26. > :20:30.but he has made enemies, enemies he calls "the blob". What has he done,
:20:31. > :20:37.his central idea, free school, are free of central local authority
:20:38. > :20:41.control, 174 are ready and 157 in the pipeline. 4,000 across England
:20:42. > :20:45.in total. That is a lot of new schools to monitor and Michael Gove
:20:46. > :20:49.has faced criticism for a lack of oversight. He's a fighter and he
:20:50. > :20:52.makes great claims. There are 24% of free schools inspected by Ofsted
:20:53. > :20:56.that are outstanding. That is compared with 20% of other schools
:20:57. > :20:59.inspected. This is a tricky comparison. There are so few free
:21:00. > :21:04.schools and lots of other schools are yet to be under the new regime.
:21:05. > :21:09.Many fights along the way. The teaching union, once again on strike
:21:10. > :21:14.tomorrow, many parents, authors, historians, former Labour allies
:21:15. > :21:18.like Sally Morgan, and the coalition partners he once courted. I caught
:21:19. > :21:22.up with Michael Gove as his conference got under way. I started
:21:23. > :21:25.by asking why have people come around the world to see just 300
:21:26. > :21:28.free schools. Free schools are one of the ways we are reforming
:21:29. > :21:32.education. Of course the success of free schools is one of the things
:21:33. > :21:34.that has attracted people. Free schools are twice as likely to be
:21:35. > :21:39.outstanding as other schools which have been inspected under the tough
:21:40. > :21:42.new Ofsted framework. What we have sought to do is create great new
:21:43. > :21:48.schools in areas that really need them. Now that the first 174 have
:21:49. > :21:51.been set up. Now there are another more than 100 in the pipeline,
:21:52. > :21:57.people can see that this is a success and I expect that after the
:21:58. > :22:00.election Conservative Education Secretary, whether me or someone
:22:01. > :22:03.else, will want massively to increase those numbers. How will you
:22:04. > :22:07.do that? One way in Sweden, which for you is the model, was profit
:22:08. > :22:12.making. Will that be part of how you scale up from what you are talking
:22:13. > :22:15.about, which is hundreds, to thousands? No. You are ruling that
:22:16. > :22:18.out? Yes. I don't believe you need profit. I asked a number of
:22:19. > :22:24.reformers across the globe, do you think that it would make a big
:22:25. > :22:28.difference? Uniformly from left-to-right, from governor Jed
:22:29. > :22:31.Bush to others in the United States who have pioneered education reform.
:22:32. > :22:35.To people in Europe who also admire what we are doing, they say it is
:22:36. > :22:46.not necessary. The profit motive becomes as it were a way of on
:22:47. > :22:50.opposition to change. We need to significantly increase the number of
:22:51. > :22:53.schools that enjoy the autonomy that academy chains can bring but also
:22:54. > :22:56.the support they bring. That is likely to be in the next manifesto
:22:57. > :23:01.for you to get from hundreds to thousands? We want to increase the
:23:02. > :23:04.number of free schools, that will be in the manifesto, also in the
:23:05. > :23:09.manifesto will be a scale of ambition, specifically in
:23:10. > :23:13.encouraging more primary schools to become academies as well. One of the
:23:14. > :23:17.big success stories of reform in the past 12 months has been the way in
:23:18. > :23:22.which primary schools that were once considered to be basically beyond
:23:23. > :23:27.redemption have been transformed. You are minded that every school
:23:28. > :23:30.should be part of an academy chain? That is the direction we want to
:23:31. > :23:34.move. I don't want to be prescriptive. But you can tell
:23:35. > :23:37.viewers tonight if there is a Tory Government or part of a Government
:23:38. > :23:44.there will be thousands and thousands more academy chains? If
:23:45. > :23:46.there are, if there is a Conservative Secretary of State for
:23:47. > :23:50.Education after the next election me or someone else we will ensure that
:23:51. > :23:54.many, many more primary schools benefit from academy status. The
:23:55. > :23:58.Prime Minister at PMQs talked about the next manifesto, he said there
:23:59. > :24:00.would be some kind of new strike legislation, you know the
:24:01. > :24:04.legislation better than anyone in the country. You must have a feeling
:24:05. > :24:09.about what would be a good level to put the threshold at? I don't.
:24:10. > :24:14.Because I think it is important that we make some judgments about what
:24:15. > :24:19.the right threshold would be. And it is also important that we consider
:24:20. > :24:25.one or two other things that might involve folks saying for example
:24:26. > :24:28.saying there needs to be thresholds in schools. Which schools are you
:24:29. > :24:32.referring to? One of the ideas discussed in the past is you need to
:24:33. > :24:35.have a majority within a particular work place, within a particular
:24:36. > :24:39.school and local authority area or within for example a particular
:24:40. > :24:43.academy chain before industrial action can be taken. I think it is
:24:44. > :24:47.important that we have a debate and discussion about how we can ensure
:24:48. > :24:51.that children are protected from what is essentially politically
:24:52. > :24:56.motivated industrial reaction. 16% of teachers support you, how did you
:24:57. > :25:02.end up losing so many of them? I'm not sure how accurate that poll is.
:25:03. > :25:07.Do you think it is more accurate, how many would you say support you?
:25:08. > :25:11.I couldn't put a finger on it. What is your impression of how many, you
:25:12. > :25:16.walk into a room of teachers, hopefully representative, what is it
:25:17. > :25:21.half the room, a third of the room or 16 of the room? What is striking
:25:22. > :25:24.while I can't put an absolute number on it, what I can tell you is
:25:25. > :25:28.outstanding teachers and outstanding head teachers are, I find,
:25:29. > :25:32.overwhelmingly in favour of what we are doing. It is the bad ones that
:25:33. > :25:35.don't get it? Yes. Why do you think you haven't been able to persuade
:25:36. > :25:39.those joining the strikes tomorrow? They are a minority. It is important
:25:40. > :25:45.to stress as the Prime Minister did today, that the ballot, which
:25:46. > :25:49.legitimises this strike is two years old, and the turnout which validated
:25:50. > :25:56.that ballot was small. There are lots of people as members of trades
:25:57. > :25:59.unions will support the fact it is a legally constituted ballot, but I
:26:00. > :26:04.absolutely think this strike is damaging, that the NUT leadership
:26:05. > :26:06.has a responsibility to engage in talks to improve children's
:26:07. > :26:11.education rather than industrial action which actually holds children
:26:12. > :26:16.back. Do we work hard as a nation, countries in the tables above us,
:26:17. > :26:21.the South Koreans just work and read 18 hours day? I think it is
:26:22. > :26:25.important, yes, to encourage hard work at school. I think it is also
:26:26. > :26:29.important to balance that with all the other things we want, as a
:26:30. > :26:35.father, we want our children to do, playing football and having funs.
:26:36. > :26:39.However, I think it is the case that as a country we don't read enough.
:26:40. > :26:45.Adults are not reading enough in this country? I think all of us
:26:46. > :26:50.should read more. I think that it is great to see that I think the
:26:51. > :26:58.numbers of books being bought, both e-books and physical volumes is at
:26:59. > :27:08.an all-time high. They are not being finished? If Thomas Piquit, he's
:27:09. > :27:14.book it is not being finished. How many do you read a year? 30 or 40.
:27:15. > :27:21.Do you tot it up? I try to keep a note. Gladstone did that didn't he?
:27:22. > :27:24.That is all we have in common. Joining me now is the General
:27:25. > :27:27.Secretary of the National Union of Teachers who has called a strike
:27:28. > :27:33.tomorrow, and the executive principle of an academy in Leeds,
:27:34. > :27:35.who plans to open his first free school in September. First of all
:27:36. > :27:39.you are striking tomorrow on the basis of a ballot from two years ago
:27:40. > :27:47.in which only 27% of teachers took part? Where is the democracy in
:27:48. > :27:55.that? The fact is it is perfectly legitimate as Michael Gove said,
:27:56. > :28:00.ballot. We voted for at thises continued action with no end state.
:28:01. > :28:04.27% of teachers took part? The turnout we have had subsequent to
:28:05. > :28:10.that has been higher. Let me tell you about turnout. The rules that
:28:11. > :28:14.govern how a blot for industrial action has to be done. It has to be
:28:15. > :28:18.a fully posted ballot to every member. If the they wanted to
:28:19. > :28:22.improve the ballot turnout, they could change the legislation and say
:28:23. > :28:26.people could vote on-line or at their work place or any manner of
:28:27. > :28:31.different kinds of ways. Do you believe it should be a statute of
:28:32. > :28:35.limitations on strikes, as David Cameron today said he wanted to see?
:28:36. > :28:38.I don't think that is important, it is important to get it across and
:28:39. > :28:44.have a highest turnout. The statute of limb takes I don't understand
:28:45. > :28:49.what -- limitations he's talking about I don't know. We would like to
:28:50. > :28:51.see strike action only taken in extreme circumstances, that is not
:28:52. > :28:56.represented here. You listen to teachers who have essentially lost,
:28:57. > :29:01.what, 15% of their pay since the coalition came in, the pension
:29:02. > :29:06.rights are changed. They have a legitimate grievance, they are not
:29:07. > :29:11.valued in society are they? I don't see that at all, I see teachers
:29:12. > :29:14.proud of what they are achieving and making enormous contributions to the
:29:15. > :29:18.world children come from. And this reform programme, changing the lives
:29:19. > :29:21.of children from the most disadvantaged backgrounds in our
:29:22. > :29:24.country. On strike action, you have the members in your school they are
:29:25. > :29:31.members of a union? I am too. Of course. On the question of whether
:29:32. > :29:35.or not teachers should be backing the reforms, you heard Michael Gove
:29:36. > :29:38.say there, first of all there is a minority that ideolgically are
:29:39. > :29:43.driven, and are actually not very good, they don't support us, and the
:29:44. > :29:47.majority do support us. Do you accept that actually as a teacher,
:29:48. > :29:50.holding out for reforms for teachers which are not necessarily best for
:29:51. > :29:59.children, then you are seen as reactionary? What our policies in
:30:00. > :30:02.the NUT are we think are best for children. There is no contention
:30:03. > :30:07.about being concerned about the fact that your pension has lost value and
:30:08. > :30:11.your pay has lost 15% and wanting to do the best by children. Very many
:30:12. > :30:14.teachers hold both those views at the same time. When the Government
:30:15. > :30:19.is unprepared to talk about policy changes at all, then we are forced
:30:20. > :30:25.eventually to take strike action about it. Are you not concerned that
:30:26. > :30:28.disadvantaged children, so far, statistically, are less likely to go
:30:29. > :30:33.to free schools? I think having been someone who has applied and gone
:30:34. > :30:36.through the free schools programme, somebody an applicant for, that I
:30:37. > :30:39.understand how rigorous the process of assessment for free schools is.
:30:40. > :30:42.We are opening the first free school in September, and we have another
:30:43. > :30:47.one to follow in the following September. I can assure you in the
:30:48. > :30:50.application process the rigorous assessment on what imfact we will
:30:51. > :30:55.have on disadvantaged children is very deep in that process. Our
:30:56. > :30:59.schools opening will be almost entirely focussed on narrowing the
:31:00. > :31:04.gap in performance which is such a problem nationally. When you have
:31:05. > :31:12.said in defending the status quo that 36% of pupils free school meals
:31:13. > :31:16.achieve five good GCSEs. That is not a good statistic at all? No, the
:31:17. > :31:22.fact is the way you improve things is by things like the London
:31:23. > :31:27.Challenge. London used to be the worst performing region in the
:31:28. > :31:29.country, there was a peer school-to-school improvement system,
:31:30. > :31:33.we are now the best performing region in the country. There are
:31:34. > :31:36.much better ways of improving things than by floating schools off and
:31:37. > :31:41.changing their governance structure. What you need to do is focus on
:31:42. > :31:44.every school being a good school and having a local authority help you is
:31:45. > :31:48.the best way to do that. Do you accept the local authorities have a
:31:49. > :31:51.strong role to play in some schools? In some schools, certainly. There is
:31:52. > :31:56.nothing in the policy development that contradicts that. You heard
:31:57. > :32:00.Michael Gove say that if a Conservative Government returned he
:32:01. > :32:04.would want to see thousands of academies and free schools? I
:32:05. > :32:07.haven't been always a fan of the reform programme, but I recognise
:32:08. > :32:10.and I'm prepared to engage in disinterested and impartial
:32:11. > :32:14.assessment of the impact of the reform programme. On that view the
:32:15. > :32:19.free school programme, the use of excellent head teachers to change
:32:20. > :32:21.what is taking place in underperforming schools, and the
:32:22. > :32:25.subjects preparing young people for the challenges of the future.
:32:26. > :32:28.Whatever everyone says there is clear evidence that is changing the
:32:29. > :32:32.deal for young people today. Look at how many children, how many actual
:32:33. > :32:35.pupils there are in the number of free schools that have been deemed
:32:36. > :32:38.to be outstanding and good. The fact is, it is not the same as the
:32:39. > :32:44.proportion of schools that are being deemed to be outstanding and good.
:32:45. > :32:48.There are good schools everywhere. I'm not saying every free school is
:32:49. > :32:51.a bad school, I'm saying it is not the right system. If free schools
:32:52. > :32:55.can get more poorer children to the best universities is that good? If
:32:56. > :32:58.that were to be shown to the case we would have to look at it, but the
:32:59. > :33:02.fact is that is not what is happening. I would love Christine to
:33:03. > :33:08.come to our school and see that in action. Will you take up the
:33:09. > :33:12.invitation? People of academies and free schools always say that and I
:33:13. > :33:16.will always come if they invite me. Over the last few years the monthly
:33:17. > :33:18.wage statistics from the office of national statistics have taken on a
:33:19. > :33:22.new importance. Politicians all use numbers to argue about who is best
:33:23. > :33:26.placed to help lard working families, whilst the Bank of England
:33:27. > :33:30.watches them closely, looking for clues as to when to raise interest
:33:31. > :33:34.rates. But a new report out tomorrow from the Resolution Foundation
:33:35. > :33:38.think-tank, given to our economics correspondent suggests the numbers
:33:39. > :33:43.shouldn'ted be taken at face value. What has happened, what is going on?
:33:44. > :33:47.This is a very interesting report from the Resolution Foundation, out
:33:48. > :33:52.tomorrow. It casts a had you light on the wages figures on -- a new
:33:53. > :33:58.light on the wages figures. We know since the end of 2009 prices have
:33:59. > :34:02.been rising faster than wages. What economists call real wages have been
:34:03. > :34:05.falling and a squeeze on incomes. In the last few months there is
:34:06. > :34:09.optimistic signs that is turning around and the squeeze is coming to
:34:10. > :34:12.an end. These monthly figures completely exclude the
:34:13. > :34:16.self-employed. Does that matter? It matters quite a lot. It matters more
:34:17. > :34:19.than it used to. There has been a big rise in self-employment in
:34:20. > :34:23.recent years. In fact if you go back to the start of 2008 when the
:34:24. > :34:28.recession began, compared to now. We have a million more people in work
:34:29. > :34:31.today, six years on. We have an increase of 700,000 in
:34:32. > :34:36.self-employment. That is seven out of ten of net new jobs. It is one in
:34:37. > :34:40.four people, one in seven people in the UK are now self-employed. Does
:34:41. > :34:44.adding them into the figures change things radically? It is actually
:34:45. > :34:47.quite a big change. If we have a look at the official figures for the
:34:48. > :34:53.last few years. If we look at the height of the squeeze on incomes,
:34:54. > :34:59.2009-2012, you see overall real wages, wages after prices fell by
:35:00. > :35:05.almost 5 pest. If you look at -- 5%. If you look at the resolution
:35:06. > :35:11.figures those figures get big e it goes from 5 per cent to 8%. That is
:35:12. > :35:14.because the self-employed are more directly exposed to what is
:35:15. > :35:19.happening in the economy. When things are bad they take a bigger
:35:20. > :35:24.hit. But, when things are going well, they do much better. So it
:35:25. > :35:28.looks like this ONS measure we talk about, it is you understating the
:35:29. > :35:33.extent of the fall over the past few years, but it will now probably
:35:34. > :35:38.understate the rise in the coming years. Does this change anything in
:35:39. > :35:43.the sense that if these figures are a lot better, does that put pressure
:35:44. > :35:50.on Mark Carney, as far as interest rates are concerned? This is for
:35:51. > :35:53.people who are not concerned with geeks like we are. The Bank of
:35:54. > :35:58.England are looking at data at the moment, they are saying it is an
:35:59. > :36:03.indicator how much spare capacity there is, and if those figures are
:36:04. > :36:06.wrong that is a problem. There is the politics, Labour have been
:36:07. > :36:10.arguing that ordinary people are not benefitting from the economic
:36:11. > :36:14.recovery. The Government is rebutting that, this is ammunition
:36:15. > :36:20.in their battle. It matters if they are wrong. In 2012 we were told a
:36:21. > :36:26.double-dip recession and argy bargy about it, and a year later we are
:36:27. > :36:31.told there was no dip. Tonight in the second World Cup
:36:32. > :36:37.semifinal it is still 0-0 extra time, we will bring you the final
:36:38. > :36:43.score. But Brazilians are naturally fixated on the rout last night, when
:36:44. > :36:55.Germany seemed to mock Brazil with five goals in 30 minutes. Brazil's
:36:56. > :36:59.SKOECH, -- coach, Scolari, said he knew what it was to feel shame.
:37:00. > :37:03.It is the spiritual home of football, for years Brazil has
:37:04. > :37:10.enjoyed success on the world stage and dazzled crowds to boot. This
:37:11. > :37:19.World Cup was meant to represent an outward-looking confident country
:37:20. > :37:27.with a triumphant football team and an allegory for Brazil's arrival on
:37:28. > :37:33.the stage of power. Stunned crowds across Brazil, not quite sure
:37:34. > :37:37.whether to be angry or tearful. Today the inquest began with
:37:38. > :37:42.newspapers calling it a tragedy, a humiliation. And on the streets of
:37:43. > :37:46.Rio it was not hard to get a good deal on a replica shirt. It was not
:37:47. > :37:51.just the defeat but the manner of the defeat that has left a scar on
:37:52. > :37:56.the nation's psyche. The big question now is Brazil's national
:37:57. > :38:03.identity shattered and such a big part of that identity has been so
:38:04. > :38:07.uncermoniously wrecked. Never game like this, utter humiliation for the
:38:08. > :38:17.Brazilians. With me now to discuss the impact of that defeat on the
:38:18. > :38:22.national psyche is my guest. And my other guest, whose book details the
:38:23. > :38:30.history of the American team through six famous defeats and at the Brazil
:38:31. > :38:33.team training camp. After last night's drama tonight's game is
:38:34. > :38:35.shockingly dull. It is more interesting to listen to you,
:38:36. > :38:39.because you have just come out of the press conference. What is the
:38:40. > :38:46.mood in there, is there a lot of self-flagellation. ? Well I didn't
:38:47. > :38:50.like the timing, I wasn't hoping to expand the book so early. That
:38:51. > :38:54.happened, it was a shocking result, I don't think this will be as tragic
:38:55. > :38:58.as 1950 because the country has pulled off a fantastic World Cup,
:38:59. > :39:04.people should focus on that. There are no excuses for what happened on
:39:05. > :39:08.the pitch. This being a nation of football lovers, there would be a
:39:09. > :39:12.massive scar for the next few decades, the foreseeable future. How
:39:13. > :39:17.do you think this will be responded to, not just in 24 hours but over
:39:18. > :39:21.the coming days, because football was the great glue in Brazil that
:39:22. > :39:27.papered over a lot of really big problems? Yes, if you have a look at
:39:28. > :39:32.1950, that is the moment that Brazil tried to crystallise its identity,
:39:33. > :39:38.it didn't happen when it lost to Uraguy. So there was a lot of naval
:39:39. > :39:41.gazing and searching, psychologically, about what it meant
:39:42. > :39:49.to be Brazilian. It has since created its own identity, but
:39:50. > :39:54.tethered itself to a sport it is not good at any more. As far as you are
:39:55. > :40:02.concerned this is the come up pence, because it was -- comupence. Most of
:40:03. > :40:07.the country were behind the team. It is a brand at this stage, selling
:40:08. > :40:10.beer or soda in a sense that everyone's second-favourite team is
:40:11. > :40:24.Brazil and even the Brazilians believe it. When it got its come up
:40:25. > :40:28.uppenc it was not a surprise, just the manner. Do you think it is
:40:29. > :40:38.cosmetic now. Actually the hard graft to make a brilliant football
:40:39. > :40:41.team doesn't exist? It is part of the national identity and a huge
:40:42. > :40:44.thing. But it is not the end of the world. I like the fact that some
:40:45. > :40:48.people are looking at it and thinking maybe this is a time where
:40:49. > :40:52.we start thinking we are defined by football. Maybe we are not the best
:40:53. > :40:56.in the world any more. Maybe things can change. The Brazilian game is
:40:57. > :41:03.rigged with corruption and mismanagement. We know that even
:41:04. > :41:07.though this didn't cost as much as people said, there will be stadium
:41:08. > :41:13.that is are white elephants. Perhaps there will be changes for the game
:41:14. > :41:17.and the people.. It is a massive means of social mobility here. We
:41:18. > :41:21.are coming on to the Olympics, but dealing with tonight's game what do
:41:22. > :41:27.Brazilians want. Do they want to see a European final. Do they want to
:41:28. > :41:33.see Argentina in. They think of each other very differently? Between 1946
:41:34. > :41:38.and 956 they didn't meet in a competitive match. There is always a
:41:39. > :41:44.rivalry between the two. Brazil doesn't want messy lifting the World
:41:45. > :41:49.Cup trough -- Messi lifting the World Cup trophy. It would grind the
:41:50. > :41:53.faces into the dust? What Argentina will want to do is win the World Cup
:41:54. > :41:58.there. That has been the plan all along. To win in the Maracana on
:41:59. > :42:05.Sunday. Here we have a Brazil, one of the BRIC countries, supposedly on
:42:06. > :42:11.the rise, economically. But of course, before we had all the
:42:12. > :42:14.developments for the World Cup, with the riots leading up to the
:42:15. > :42:17.elections in October. Is there something about Brazil that is very
:42:18. > :42:22.troubled at the moment? Yes, I think it was there before. I think as the
:42:23. > :42:26.World Cup is basically papered over the cracks, so in a sense the World
:42:27. > :42:34.Cup, as the Olympics, is a holiday for the world. It take as vacation
:42:35. > :42:39.for a month, and everything is suspended as it were, and reality to
:42:40. > :42:45.the foreon Monday again. We have the idea, do you think there can be any
:42:46. > :42:54.hope carrying them over to the Olympic spirit keeping the Brazilian
:42:55. > :42:59.people feeling optimistic. It will be fantastic opportunity for Brazil
:43:00. > :43:12.to showcase itself. Not the myth of the dancing ladies or theal bore al
:43:13. > :43:17.tambourines. A sporting event will not solve problems but will trigger
:43:18. > :43:22.a wave that might do something. I think it would be massive comedown,
:43:23. > :43:25.and it has started already thanks to the Germans, but it is a good
:43:26. > :43:28.opportunity for Brazilians to showcase themselves and the country
:43:29. > :43:31.as people. That can't be underestimated. Thank you very much.
:43:32. > :43:36.Just to let you know that actually at half time in extra time it is
:43:37. > :43:42.still 0-0. Before we go a word about last night's programme. During a
:43:43. > :43:50.live item about party whips former Tory whip kneel Hamilton referred to
:43:51. > :43:58.a former MP, now dead, who said and been known to engage in wrong
:43:59. > :44:03.behaviour, he was referred to as the wrong MP, Mr Rogers is not the
:44:04. > :44:09.person known to engage in outrageous behaviour, we apologise to him
:44:10. > :44:40.unreservedly for the embarrassment caused. Now the front pages:
:44:41. > :44:46.We have a story from the Sun? From the political editor, he's reporting
:44:47. > :44:50.that the so called snoopers charter, the idea that Security Services
:44:51. > :44:52.wanted more powers to be able to look at everybody's internet
:44:53. > :44:56.activity over the past year, that was blocked because the Liberal
:44:57. > :45:00.Democrats didn't like it. The Sun is reporting that actually that is now
:45:01. > :45:03.going to go ahead, a deal has been cut, and Downing Street refusing to
:45:04. > :45:09.confirm it, saying it is a national security issue. My sources are
:45:10. > :45:17.saying there will be a meeting tomorrow at 8.00am. They have said
:45:18. > :45:21.it will be only serious crimes and high-level terrorism issues but not
:45:22. > :45:26.blanket. That is all we have for you tonight, we leave you with beautiful
:45:27. > :45:32.thoughts, beautiful images. Here is the work of a Dutch physicist, who
:45:33. > :45:42.combines nature photography and X-ray technology. Good night.