:00:24. > :00:26.act between privacy and security. It is not the sort of thing you can put
:00:27. > :00:31.through the House of Commons in a single day. You have to think about
:00:32. > :00:35.it carefully. As the conflagration burns in the Middle East, have we
:00:36. > :00:39.entered a dangerous new phase. I will be speaking to the Israeli
:00:40. > :00:49.intelligence minister. An old faster on the old masters, we
:00:50. > :00:54.talk sex, death, religion and art. Carravagio and Rembrandt, the first
:00:55. > :00:58.four film directors and dealing in the extraordinary business of
:00:59. > :01:06.artificial light and what is cinemas it is no more and no less the
:01:07. > :01:13.manipulation of artificial light. And... So long to the spirit of '68,
:01:14. > :01:21.why is it that generation Y is moving to the right.
:01:22. > :01:28.Good evening. When the Home Secretary Theresa May made a
:01:29. > :01:31.statement to the House today, outlining fast-track legislation to
:01:32. > :01:36.ensure police and Security Services can access mobile and internet data,
:01:37. > :01:39.she did so secure in the knowledge that she would square the
:01:40. > :01:45.opposition. Her Labour shadow, Yvette Cooper, and party leader, Ed
:01:46. > :01:49.Miliband, wrote to their party today saying they had been guided by their
:01:50. > :01:56.firm conviction that it was essential to ensure the safety of
:01:57. > :02:03.civilians and privacy protected. Not all politicians are so sanguine.
:02:04. > :02:09.2006 and a plot that caused chaos at airports across the world. You have
:02:10. > :02:13.nothing but to expect but floods of martyr operations, volcanos of anger
:02:14. > :02:17.and revenge erupting amongst your capital. In the end three men were
:02:18. > :02:21.convicted of trying to blow up planes with liquid bomb, plan
:02:22. > :02:28.uncovered after tapping into phone and internet records. From the
:02:29. > :02:31.killer of Rhys Jones to the men who groomed girls in Rochdale. The
:02:32. > :02:35.Government claims all could have gone free without the power to
:02:36. > :02:39.monitor electronic communications. David Cameron says it is a power
:02:40. > :02:46.that could disappear after a recent European ruling and an emergency law
:02:47. > :02:50.is now needed. We face real and credible threats to our security
:02:51. > :02:54.from serious organised crime, from the activity of paedophile, from the
:02:55. > :02:59.collapse of Syria, the growth of ISIS in Iraq, and Al-Shabab in East
:03:00. > :03:02.Africa, I'm simply not prepared to be a Prime Minister who has to
:03:03. > :03:06.address the people after a terrorist incident and explain I could have
:03:07. > :03:12.done more to prevent it. The police and other Government agencies made
:03:13. > :03:15.more than 500,000 requests for data from communications firms last year.
:03:16. > :03:19.This is so called met at that data, the raw information that shows who
:03:20. > :03:25.is contacting who, for how long and if on a mobile, where from. There
:03:26. > :03:29.were another 2,760 requests for interceptions, that would be the
:03:30. > :03:35.content of the actual phone call, e-mail or message. It is an
:03:36. > :03:39.essential source, I think, both countering terrorism and dealing
:03:40. > :03:42.with serious crime. Particularly for law enforcement, this is an
:03:43. > :03:46.essential tool. A lot of it is very basic, it is who called whom, when
:03:47. > :03:54.and where, basic communications data. It is really important that
:03:55. > :03:58.capability is maintained. In the aftermath of the Madrid and London
:03:59. > :04:02.bombings, a European directive was put in place, forcing companies to
:04:03. > :04:05.store customer data for up to 24 months and hand it over to the
:04:06. > :04:14.authorities when needed, for years that wasn't questioned. But the leak
:04:15. > :04:17.is from this man, Edward Snowden, changing the way companies and
:04:18. > :04:22.Governments feel about state surveillance. In April this year the
:04:23. > :04:26.European court of justice ruled that those firms no longer have an
:04:27. > :04:29.obligation to store that data. Privacy campaigners say they have
:04:30. > :04:34.already sent more than 1500 letters out, demanding that all personal
:04:35. > :04:38.information is immediately deleted. Without this legislation we face the
:04:39. > :04:42.very prospect of losing access to this data overnight. That appears to
:04:43. > :04:47.have caused a panic in Whitehall and the sudden realisation that the
:04:48. > :04:52.police and Security Sers could be on the backfoot. Today's emergency law
:04:53. > :04:56.will override that European ruling, effectively restoring the status
:04:57. > :05:00.quo. The new law is unusual for a number of reasons, the speed it will
:05:01. > :05:04.be on the books for one, it should complete all its parliamentary
:05:05. > :05:08.stages by next week and the way in which it has the backing of all
:05:09. > :05:13.three main parties before being debated. Long-term critics are
:05:14. > :05:18.suspicious, accusing the Government of a stitch-up. If there was a real
:05:19. > :05:21.emergency it would be on April 8th when the European Court actually
:05:22. > :05:25.made the ruling. Then you would have expected the Government to come to
:05:26. > :05:30.the House and say we need to have an emergency law, if that was
:05:31. > :05:34.necessary. They should have seen that coming. Instead, to rush it in,
:05:35. > :05:38.one-and-a-half weeks before we end the session. It doesn't seem
:05:39. > :05:44.sensible. Nick Clegg was at David Cameron's side today to support the
:05:45. > :05:50.measures. On paper at least the new bill has greater safeguard as new
:05:51. > :05:56.oversight board and promise of a review before the next election. We
:05:57. > :06:00.have inserted a poisoned pill into the legislation, we are not putting
:06:01. > :06:04.anything permanently on the statute book. The bigger question is what
:06:05. > :06:08.happens after the date. The PM made clear today he would like to go
:06:09. > :06:11.further, giving greater powers to the police and Security Services.
:06:12. > :06:15.Even those who have worked on the frontline need to be convinced that
:06:16. > :06:23.is really necessary. I think the act is pretty good. It is technology
:06:24. > :06:26.neutral, it has enabled the authorities to collect information
:06:27. > :06:32.which has saved lives and prevented crime. I'm not personally convinced
:06:33. > :06:38.that there is a huge new area that is needed. Since Snowden, there has
:06:39. > :06:41.been pressure on the state to roll back its ability to snoop.
:06:42. > :06:44.been pressure on the state to roll marks a new stage. An attempt to
:06:45. > :06:48.draw a line and set out why these powers are so necessary. Even the
:06:49. > :06:53.politicians admit that getting the balance right between security and
:06:54. > :06:58.privacy may take some time yet. Joining me now are the Justice
:06:59. > :07:03.Minister and Liberal Democrat MP, Simon Hughes, and the director of
:07:04. > :07:07.the Campaign Group Liberty. Simon Hughes, first of all, a massive
:07:08. > :07:10.climb-down for the Liberal Democrats and another example of throwing your
:07:11. > :07:15.principles to the wind to remain in the coalition? Completely not,
:07:16. > :07:20.because, it doesn't increase the powers of the state at all. It
:07:21. > :07:24.doesn't agree to the snoopers' charter which we have resisted and
:07:25. > :07:27.has not been agreed by the coalition, and although the Tories
:07:28. > :07:31.would like it we haven't agreed to it. It doesn't pick up some of the
:07:32. > :07:35.ideas that were advocated by the last Labour Government. Why is so
:07:36. > :07:38.last minute, what David Davis was saying is there has to be some kind
:07:39. > :07:43.of debate in this, you had three months? You asked me a question
:07:44. > :07:46.saying is it a big climb-down, I'm just saying not only is it not
:07:47. > :07:49.because it doesn't change the present law in terms of its impact,
:07:50. > :07:53.it also, as you heard Nick Clegg say, adds a huge amount of extra
:07:54. > :07:58.things. We have got guarantee, we have secured a guarantee that the
:07:59. > :08:03.big law, the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act will be
:08:04. > :08:08.reviewed before the general election. We have secured that this
:08:09. > :08:17.piece of temporary legislation has an end in 2016. Are these good
:08:18. > :08:22.things? No. You do accept the terror threat, the threat from criminal
:08:23. > :08:26.gangs is often on-line? I'm not going to have the nonsense I heard
:08:27. > :08:31.from my Prime Minister today about this emergency being caused by
:08:32. > :08:37.paedophiles and Jihadis. This court judgment that found the existing
:08:38. > :08:40.regime unlawful, a disproportionate blanket interference with
:08:41. > :08:44.everybody's privacy, criminal or not, this judgment came down on the
:08:45. > :08:47.8th of April this year. I have read the bill very carefully, it is a
:08:48. > :08:51.very short piece of enabling legislation that could have been
:08:52. > :08:54.introduced into parliament pretty much three months ago. What is the
:08:55. > :08:57.emergency? Why has it taken three months? Because they have been
:08:58. > :09:01.stitching up a little deal with the coalition and it seems with the
:09:02. > :09:05.opposition behind closed doors. They talk about committees of oversight,
:09:06. > :09:09.why can't parliament be the committee of oversight? It will be
:09:10. > :09:12.the committee of oversight. Parliament will have... Three days
:09:13. > :09:16.to do this. You have looked at the bill it is a short bill, you have
:09:17. > :09:21.conceded that. It took three months to draft. Let me deal with one point
:09:22. > :09:26.at a time, it doesn't extend the powers of the state at all. Reverse
:09:27. > :09:30.the judgment. It replaces via piece of legislation the secondary
:09:31. > :09:34.legislation that was in existence under the directive, it doesn't
:09:35. > :09:37.change or add to the law. Why so last minute? Because we were very
:09:38. > :09:41.careful that once the judgment of the European Court was given, we
:09:42. > :09:44.didn't want to get legislation wrong. Careful attention was given
:09:45. > :09:50.to make sure we had the minimal amount of legislation to replace T
:09:51. > :09:55.that is why this, and also for us, that many additional safeguards were
:09:56. > :09:58.put in place. You have utterly changed your position? Who has? That
:09:59. > :10:01.speech from the Deputy Prime Minister and Prime Minister today
:10:02. > :10:05.could have come from Tony Blair or Gordon Brown or any previous Prime
:10:06. > :10:09.Minister. It couldn't. You would have not supported this before the
:10:10. > :10:12.general election? It couldn't. Minister you would not have done.
:10:13. > :10:17.Because you heard what the safeguards are, they are a review of
:10:18. > :10:22.the substantive legislation, part of an interim review. 2016, why so
:10:23. > :10:26.late. There is a review of the main legislation, a new oversight board,
:10:27. > :10:30.a change in the Scrutiny Committee in parliament, a sunset clause which
:10:31. > :10:36.kills the bill, it doesn't enable it to be reviewed, there is a huge
:10:37. > :10:40.reduction... In two years time... . Let me, it is really important. You
:10:41. > :10:43.were against the whole communications data act? And it is
:10:44. > :10:47.gone, we have stopped it, the Tories want it and we have stopped it. The
:10:48. > :10:51.really important thing is this bill reduces the commitment we have got,
:10:52. > :10:58.reduces the number of authorities who ask for data. It doesn't. It is
:10:59. > :11:03.only such a short time since Lee Rigby and you said it was a kneejerk
:11:04. > :11:07.reaction, and now we have this last-minute legislation. It was not
:11:08. > :11:11.kneejerk reaction, if you it was you would have seen something brought to
:11:12. > :11:16.parliament the day after the judgment. In the same way you are
:11:17. > :11:20.attacking the idea that there is very little chance to have any
:11:21. > :11:23.oversight of this, in the same way there doesn't appear to be any
:11:24. > :11:26.public outrage, because the public believes, by and large, that the
:11:27. > :11:30.Government is doing what it can to keep people safe from terrorism,
:11:31. > :11:33.from paedophiles and from organised criminality, that is the duty of the
:11:34. > :11:38.Government? Absolutely. I agree that this kind of data can be really,
:11:39. > :11:41.really helpful and essential in all kinds of serious criminal
:11:42. > :11:45.investigations, I'm sure the court of justice agrees that too. But they
:11:46. > :11:49.found this blanket surveillance, this blanket reception and access to
:11:50. > :11:53.data, all those thousands and thousands of requests, they found
:11:54. > :11:57.that disproportionate, this bill creates no safeguards that ensure
:11:58. > :12:04.the regime is more targeted and we go back to being citizens and not
:12:05. > :12:06.all of us suspects. Which is why the very short legislation makes it
:12:07. > :12:11.clear that the Secretary of State will only have power to issue
:12:12. > :12:14.necessary and proportionate interception warrants. The whole
:12:15. > :12:19.proportion issue is very important. But if it is proportional and
:12:20. > :12:23.everything elsewhere are you making some -- why are you making such a
:12:24. > :12:27.fuss about the sunset clause. What will change two years down the line
:12:28. > :12:31.that will suddenly suggest you won't continue to support? There is a big
:12:32. > :12:35.debate about this issue, rightfully around the world. I will give you
:12:36. > :12:40.one example, I'm a member of parliament in the constituency where
:12:41. > :12:43.Damilola Taylor was killed. His killers were found because police
:12:44. > :12:46.were able to track the communication patterns on phones. I don't think
:12:47. > :12:50.there is any disagreement that we need to be able to track these data
:12:51. > :12:54.patterns. If that is the case, when the European Court says the legal
:12:55. > :12:59.infrastructure that you have is not valid what do we do? Do we stand
:13:00. > :13:03.back and do nothing? You haven't been targeting enough, you have been
:13:04. > :13:08.indiscriminate. Putting a holding operation in by law. A holding for
:13:09. > :13:14.two years? That is a long hold. There is plenty of time to look at
:13:15. > :13:17.what we want to do properly both in this parliament and after the
:13:18. > :13:21.election. You have an opposition to this, but what you don't know
:13:22. > :13:26.because you are not a technological expert is how quickly the technology
:13:27. > :13:29.is moving. We know by various things happening with airport surveillance
:13:30. > :13:33.that things are moving very quickly in technological terms. Presumably
:13:34. > :13:36.we have to do everything we can to cover the waterfront on this? The
:13:37. > :13:42.technology moves apace, but the law and politics has to keep up. Wait to
:13:43. > :13:45.keep up is not... That is what it thinks it is doing? This is giving a
:13:46. > :13:48.blank cheque to the executive to reverse court judgments. This is
:13:49. > :13:53.contempt. Let me finish. It doesn't change the law. It is contempt for
:13:54. > :13:57.the law because it doesn't reverse the court judgment or put in the
:13:58. > :13:59.safeguards that the court required to make it more targeted. It is
:14:00. > :14:03.contempt for parliament because they will pass it in three days next
:14:04. > :14:07.week. Contempt for parliament, three days? If this was a proposal to
:14:08. > :14:12.increase the powers of the state. You are reversing the court
:14:13. > :14:17.judgment. When a court judges... Are you reversing the court judgment? We
:14:18. > :14:20.are dealing with the fact that the regulations we have... Are you
:14:21. > :14:25.responding to the court judgment? Of course, you know that. The regular
:14:26. > :14:29.layses at the moment we have -- the regulations we have at the moment
:14:30. > :14:32.won't stand the test. Do we leave it to be legally tested and have no
:14:33. > :14:35.law? Of course not, we could be left with no legislation at all to make
:14:36. > :14:39.sure that the security authorities kept the data which we need to keep
:14:40. > :14:42.this country safe and parliament will be able to deal with it. Thank
:14:43. > :14:46.you very much indeed. We have long days of fighting ahead of us, these
:14:47. > :14:50.were the words of Israel's Defence Minister today as rocket attacks by
:14:51. > :14:55.both Israel and Gaza showed no signs of abating. Israel has struck around
:14:56. > :15:00.780 targets in which at least 78 Palestinians have been killed since
:15:01. > :15:06.Tuesday, while Palestinian militants in Gaza fired more than 4020 rockets
:15:07. > :15:11.towards Israel. The UN Security Council discussed the crisis and Ban
:15:12. > :15:14.Ki-Moon says that Gaza is on a knife-edge and called for bold,
:15:15. > :15:17.creative thinking to end the violence. Who has the power and
:15:18. > :15:22.influence to pull both sides back from another Israeli-Palestinian
:15:23. > :15:25.war. Here is our diplomatic editor, this film contains distressing
:15:26. > :15:35.images. M this film contains distressing
:15:36. > :15:42.there is mounting. More than 80 dead and 500 wounded since Israel stepped
:15:43. > :15:45.up attacks against Palestinian groups. They have been pounding
:15:46. > :15:49.homes, telling people to leave with a warning. Sometimes they call and
:15:50. > :15:54.warn you, sometimes they hit the house directly with no warning
:15:55. > :16:00.whatsoever. We have experienced this kind of things from Israeli
:16:01. > :16:04.warplanes in the past two days. But the easy targets were hit in the
:16:05. > :16:09.first few days, and, as in past onslaught, the scope for tragic
:16:10. > :16:15.errors is increasing. Several Palestinians killed watching a World
:16:16. > :16:19.Cup match in one place, extended families becoming casualties in
:16:20. > :16:27.another. But this exchange is different from past ones, for three
:16:28. > :16:34.reasons. Since the last exchange in 2012 the balance has altered. Hamas
:16:35. > :16:43.has acquired more missiles and some with longer range. Locally procuesed
:16:44. > :16:48.Kasam 4 rockets can reach 17kms. Even two years ago Hamas could hit
:16:49. > :16:56.Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, with Iranian missiles. Now it has another type,
:16:57. > :17:02.the M 3 O2, with a 160km range that takes in pretty much all of Israel's
:17:03. > :17:08.densely-populated coastal strip. Israel though has made the bigger
:17:09. > :17:14.stride, its Iron Dome Defence System is performing better, knocking down
:17:15. > :17:17.up to 90% of the in coming Palestinian missiles it is launched
:17:18. > :17:21.at. A nationwide early warning and shelter system means that so far no
:17:22. > :17:27.Israelis have been killed. And when it comes to striking back, sensors
:17:28. > :17:32.and reaction times have been built to the point where a response to
:17:33. > :17:37.rockets fired from Gaza can come in seconds. We are well instructed, we
:17:38. > :17:42.do lots of drills, and all people need to do when they hear the siren
:17:43. > :17:47.is to find the safest place around them, wait about ten minutes and
:17:48. > :17:52.move on with your life. So it is not a big deal. The second thing that
:17:53. > :17:58.has changed is Egypt. As a result of its volatile politics. When it was
:17:59. > :18:03.run by the Muslim Brotherhood, President Mohammed Morsi smuggling
:18:04. > :18:08.tunnels into Gaza proliferated and got big enough to take missiles
:18:09. > :18:12.through. But under the General, many tunnels have been shut and Gaza has
:18:13. > :18:16.been isolated. The Israelis have today released video of more of
:18:17. > :18:20.these underground routes being bombed. But while Egypt's change of
:18:21. > :18:24.Government might help Israel's security needs, it prevents Egypt
:18:25. > :18:33.from playing the same role they did two years ago in mediating an end to
:18:34. > :18:37.the fighting. Hamas still has ties with Qatar, where today its leader
:18:38. > :18:41.was trying to mobilise support. TRANSLATION: I say to the American
:18:42. > :18:44.Governments and the European countries, United Nationses and to
:18:45. > :18:49.the brother in our neighbouring states of the Arabs, why the
:18:50. > :18:56.Palestinian people supposed to be broken and surrender and die a slow
:18:57. > :19:01.death? Here is another different factor, Israel has now started an
:19:02. > :19:05.operation that could be hard to end. Hamas insists it will carry on
:19:06. > :19:09.hitting back, and since Egypt is loathe to negotiate with the
:19:10. > :19:15.Islamists, Israel has been left with the language of continued
:19:16. > :19:19.escalation. The best help that the terrorists could get, the Hamas
:19:20. > :19:22.movement could get is people that will explain to them that hitting
:19:23. > :19:25.Israel does not pavement anybody that wants to explain that to the
:19:26. > :19:31.Hamas movement is welcome to do that. Egypt, or anyone else in the
:19:32. > :19:40.world. But the way that we would explain is that if you hit Israel
:19:41. > :19:43.you will get hurt ten-times harder. The Palestinian Authority says than
:19:44. > :19:49.Israeli ground operation into Gaza is imminent. Israel won't confirm or
:19:50. > :19:54.deny that, but if the need not to be seen backing down sets the tanks
:19:55. > :19:58.rolling, it could be a tragedy in the making.
:19:59. > :20:01.Earlier this evening I spoke to Israel's minister of intelligence,
:20:02. > :20:06.strategic affairs and international relations. Yesterday he repeated his
:20:07. > :20:09.view that Israel needed to move into Gaza to eradicate Hamas. I began by
:20:10. > :20:17.asking him if he thought Israel would launch that attack imminently?
:20:18. > :20:22.Sooner other later we will have to go into Gaza to destroy the
:20:23. > :20:24.terrorist army built by ham marks and maybe to enable the Palestinian
:20:25. > :20:30.Authority to take control again of Gaza. If you went in as before, and
:20:31. > :20:35.let's go back to 2009, when you went in there, 1400 Palestinians died, 13
:20:36. > :20:40.Israelis died, that is a big disparity, but it does mean that
:20:41. > :20:45.Israelis, you have got to prepare for Israeli fatalities? Yeah, look,
:20:46. > :20:50.you describe the situation which is very complicated. But you know
:20:51. > :20:54.despite many differences there are some similarities to what is going
:20:55. > :20:59.on today in Iraq. The terrorist organisation, like Hamas or Al-Qaeda
:21:00. > :21:04.or ISIS, with fanatical Islamic ideology is taking over the
:21:05. > :21:09.territory, and again to attack other territories. But no Israelis have
:21:10. > :21:12.been killed already, and we know that a substantial number of
:21:13. > :21:16.Palestinians have been killed. Last night at a beach side cafe there was
:21:17. > :21:20.an air strike and nine Palestinians watching the World Cup were killed
:21:21. > :21:32.and 25 injured. How are they the enemy? It is very sad but you are
:21:33. > :21:37.right. Hamas is launching rockets at our citizens. These were civilian,
:21:38. > :21:45.you are accurate and can pinpoint your targets, how did you kill
:21:46. > :21:54.football supporters in a cafe? Most of the casualties are Hamas, most
:21:55. > :21:57.unfortunately when terrorists are shooting on our cities and towns we
:21:58. > :22:02.have to protect our people. One of the reasons that there are no
:22:03. > :22:07.casualties so far in Israel is because we managed to destroy
:22:08. > :22:12.several thousand rockets before they were launched at our cities. Ban
:22:13. > :22:16.Ki-Moon has called for bold, creative decisions, why not talk now
:22:17. > :22:26.to Fatah, why not even talk to Hamas? Hamas don't want to talk with
:22:27. > :22:32.us. Would you talk to them? Out of surprise one week ago, without any
:22:33. > :22:36.reason, suddenly launches of hundreds of rockets into Israel.
:22:37. > :22:40.Imagine that somebody would launch hundreds of rockets into Britain, in
:22:41. > :22:44.London or Liverpool, and people would have to go underground. People
:22:45. > :22:49.would have to go underground. Don't you have the opportunity to create a
:22:50. > :22:54.laing peace and as Binyamin Netanyahu says, a two-state solution
:22:55. > :22:58.now to avoid being drawn in and actually being vulnerable to the
:22:59. > :23:02.wider problems in the Middle East. The creative solution surely is
:23:03. > :23:07.finally to sit and you say Hamas won't talk to you, will you talk to
:23:08. > :23:10.Hamas? We are talking to the Palestinian Authority, Hamas took
:23:11. > :23:16.over from the Palestinian Authority, but you know what speaking about
:23:17. > :23:20.peace, let me remind you again, we left Gaza, we uprooted all the
:23:21. > :23:26.Jewish settlements in Gaza in order to promote peace. This happened nine
:23:27. > :23:31.years ago. The Palestinians promised publicly that once we would go out
:23:32. > :23:35.of Gaza there would be no hostility and rockets. 12,000 rockets were
:23:36. > :23:41.launched from Gaza on our citizens, this is not the way to promote
:23:42. > :23:44.peace, Gaza was supposed to be totally demilitarised, no rockets,
:23:45. > :23:52.no missiles, that's a commitment we got from the Palestinians, and now
:23:53. > :23:57.instead our people are under constant rocket fire every day,
:23:58. > :24:02.going underground into shelters, no democratic Government would tolerate
:24:03. > :24:07.such a situation and the Government of Israel is committed to defend
:24:08. > :24:11.itself, exactly like the Government of Britain or the Government of the
:24:12. > :24:17.United States or the Government of Italy and any other democratic
:24:18. > :24:26.state. Thank you very much. Is there no chance of a reprobement between
:24:27. > :24:34.the -- reproachment between the education workers and the Education
:24:35. > :24:38.Secretary. They marched today and with the sharp words of Michael Gove
:24:39. > :24:42.on Newsnight ringing in their ears. His blunt assessment of the teachers
:24:43. > :24:46.who don't back his reforms. What is striking, I find, is that while I
:24:47. > :24:53.can't put an absolute number on it, what I can tell you is that
:24:54. > :24:56.outstanding teachers and outstanding head teachers are, I find,
:24:57. > :25:03.overwhelmingly in favour. So it is the bad ones that don't get it? Yes.
:25:04. > :25:08.Joining me now is Shaun Worth from the think-tank Policy Exchange, and
:25:09. > :25:13.former adviser to David Cameron, and a teacher in a London comprehensive
:25:14. > :25:18.school and author. Shaun Worth the bad ones don't get it, only bad
:25:19. > :25:21.teachers out on strike today? It was one of the trade unions out on
:25:22. > :25:25.strike today. But if you look at what they were striking about, which
:25:26. > :25:29.was pay and performance. Let's talk about what Michael Gove was saying,
:25:30. > :25:33.the bad teachers don't get it? I don't know about bad or good
:25:34. > :25:38.teachers. The strike today was about pay, three-quarters of teachers
:25:39. > :25:41.support pay reform and performance related pavement you have some trade
:25:42. > :25:45.unions going out there and pretending there is massive
:25:46. > :25:49.controversy over pay reform. But most agree with what was going on.
:25:50. > :25:54.The teachers were out for a number of reasons, pay, pension, curriculum
:25:55. > :25:58.changes and free schools, it was a general upset at the direction of
:25:59. > :26:01.travel? What I would say about the politics of it, which is the root of
:26:02. > :26:05.it, if you look at Tony Blair, you know, going back to anyone that has
:26:06. > :26:09.reformed education, you know, you reform any of these big things run
:26:10. > :26:13.by trade unions, you have a stand-up fist fight with them, gloves off and
:26:14. > :26:18.that is tough. What he also said of course was the outstanding teachers
:26:19. > :26:24.and the outstanding head teachers back him? I totally disagree with
:26:25. > :26:27.this. Most teachers I encounter feel that Gove knows very little about
:26:28. > :26:36.education and that most of his policies are extremely misguided.
:26:37. > :26:39.The evidence is that things like going for academy schools and free
:26:40. > :26:44.school, performance-related pay doesn't work. This is from the
:26:45. > :26:46.Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development, that
:26:47. > :26:50.are saying that performance-related pay makes no significant difference
:26:51. > :26:54.to pupils' outcomes. What we need to do is focus on what really works,
:26:55. > :27:00.which is teachers co-operating, working together and supporting
:27:01. > :27:04.teachers, giving them fair pay and giving them a chance to improve life
:27:05. > :27:08.chances for individuals. Performance-related pay doesn't
:27:09. > :27:12.undermine teams, it just means the OECD evidence is completely to the
:27:13. > :27:17.contrary. It says some of the best education systems around the world
:27:18. > :27:21.are attracting the brightest talent and teachers because of
:27:22. > :27:25.performance-related pay. It is not about cash, it is about rewarding
:27:26. > :27:29.people and valuing people. I would agree it is not about cash it is
:27:30. > :27:32.about fair pay, and it is about encouraging teachers to co-operate
:27:33. > :27:37.together. I know in my school we had a kind of performance-related basis
:27:38. > :27:41.them in my school, until recently it didn't work, because it was very
:27:42. > :27:48.high stakes and people were in their own little individual sigh locals.
:27:49. > :27:52.We have got a new -- silos. Is Michael Gove not listening to the
:27:53. > :27:56.evidence? He is not listening to the evidence. He would say that actually
:27:57. > :28:00.the opposition is not necessarily what is happening in the classroom,
:28:01. > :28:05.he says that it is an ideolgical opposition? It isn't, it is about
:28:06. > :28:08.supporting what actually works. What works is when teachers co-operate,
:28:09. > :28:12.they come together and are paid decently and you have an
:28:13. > :28:17.evidence-based approach, like they have in perhaps New Zealand, where
:28:18. > :28:22.they fund research that actually enables teachers to do a better job.
:28:23. > :28:28.He has a duty obviously as Education Secretary, to do the best he can for
:28:29. > :28:33.the majority of the pupils, and there is mixed outcomes. Does he not
:28:34. > :28:37.need to take teachers with them? I'm a mild critic of his approach on
:28:38. > :28:42.some sort of boring technical policy issues but also communications one.
:28:43. > :28:46.Give me some boring then? Free schools and where you target them.
:28:47. > :28:49.And let's target them in poorer communities because you will get
:28:50. > :28:52.more political capital built up around that. What about
:28:53. > :28:57.communication? Probably the same point. You know going into education
:28:58. > :29:01.or health reform or any big public sector reform, you will have a
:29:02. > :29:04.massive fight with the trade unionist and elitist establishment.
:29:05. > :29:11.The way to win the political argument is to bring, not them with
:29:12. > :29:15.you, probably but the public. He He has demonised us, I have had
:29:16. > :29:19.Conservative, Conservative teachers complaining about him, he has
:29:20. > :29:23.striped us of our pay for the last four years. He has cut our pay,
:29:24. > :29:28.effectively, he has cut our pensions, I have had Tory teachers
:29:29. > :29:32.who loathe what he's doing. None of his policies have worked. None of
:29:33. > :29:36.them have worked. The academy system doesn't work. We know it doesn't
:29:37. > :29:41.improve standards. You have had automatic pay progressions for 20
:29:42. > :29:46.years. What works is fair pay, that is what teachers want. That is fair
:29:47. > :29:49.pay. We are moving into a situation where people should be rewarded for
:29:50. > :29:55.excellence, it is not a benchmark. We want a system that is fair, if
:29:56. > :30:05.you have a system that backs up bullies and secretive siloism in
:30:06. > :30:10.schools it won't work. That is what performance-related pay does. It is
:30:11. > :30:13.unequal to women. You said there was a problem with communecation, it is
:30:14. > :30:18.not going to get -- communication, it is not going to get any better,
:30:19. > :30:24.will it? I think it will, the trick the Tory Party missed was not
:30:25. > :30:28.putting it front and centre of the campaign from the start. It is the
:30:29. > :30:37.most socially progressive policy we have, it helps poorest kids most. It
:30:38. > :30:44.hasn't. It is not hard left it has been a disaster.
:30:45. > :30:51.Sex and art have been the centre of Mr Greenaway's problems, for example
:30:52. > :30:58.the Cook the Thief His wife and Her mother. His latest work explores sex
:30:59. > :31:06.and eroticim and religious hypocrisy with works involving increst and
:31:07. > :31:10.paedophilia taboos. The stories are staged in order to get a patron to
:31:11. > :31:16.cough up for a revolutionary new printing press. I met him in the
:31:17. > :31:21.National Gallery where it is being screened in front of the paper by
:31:22. > :31:32.the paint -- of a painting by the painter himself. Really it is a film
:31:33. > :31:37.about film making. Although he's a film make bitter repute, he really
:31:38. > :31:46.existed, it is transpossession the activities of a film maker to a
:31:47. > :31:56.print maker and he is me. In your film you choose difficult taboos,
:31:57. > :32:00.are you trying to shock or entertain or inform I would like to think I
:32:01. > :32:04.was honest enough to do all those things. Just to shock is not enough,
:32:05. > :32:15.it produces sharp, quick and unnecessary returns. How did you
:32:16. > :32:22.construct this, it is the most beautiful seas of tableau? I'm
:32:23. > :32:25.trained as a painter. An Italian journalist asked me about starting
:32:26. > :32:31.my career as a painter and now you are a film maker. My quick and
:32:32. > :32:34.factitious replay was saying that I was always disappointed that
:32:35. > :32:40.paintings didn't have soundtracks! This film has a constant soundtrack
:32:41. > :32:45.and you have talked about cinema being too wordy? I really want to
:32:46. > :32:50.make cinema that is cinema and not nothing else. You know we don't have
:32:51. > :32:53.an image-based cinema we have a text-based cinema, every film you
:32:54. > :32:58.have seen started life with text. I think we should prioritise the
:32:59. > :33:03.image, the image, the image. I strive to make well wrought images.
:33:04. > :33:15.The biblical creation of man and woman for painters, has always
:33:16. > :33:18.presented problems. You start with the ultimate text, the Bible?
:33:19. > :33:23.presented problems. You start with best seller of all time. Isn't that
:33:24. > :33:26.a nice irony. And all those ironies are perpetuated. There are lots of
:33:27. > :33:30.words on screen, but they are performing like images, it is Texas
:33:31. > :33:35.image, in the beginning was the word. Did you want this film to be
:33:36. > :33:40.erotic or was that just a by-product. I know you have railed
:33:41. > :33:43.against the idea that it is pornography? Have I, I constantly
:33:44. > :33:49.accuse in the dialogue of the painter being a pornographer, look,
:33:50. > :33:54.is that pornography or eroticim. What is the difference between two
:33:55. > :34:00.words. It is extreme piece of voyeurism, a woman totally displayed
:34:01. > :34:06.for our voyeuristic gaze. I'm not sure if it is just a male gaze, I'm
:34:07. > :34:10.sure women are just as interested in pornography as men, but there is a
:34:11. > :34:14.way that it is blatantly obvious what the intent is meant to be. You
:34:15. > :34:17.started as a painter and you have been making films, and in way you
:34:18. > :34:21.are disparaging about certain elements of cinemas do you want to
:34:22. > :34:28.be a painter again? Always, always, the painter in the film is me, full
:34:29. > :34:33.of personal quirks and tropes and attitudes and self-reflections. What
:34:34. > :34:39.kind of painter would you be? I grew up in the 60s, early David Hockney
:34:40. > :34:46.always excited me. The list could go on and on and on. I think the first
:34:47. > :34:54.four important film directors are Caravagio, Valasquez, here they are
:34:55. > :34:59.again, Caravagio, and Rembrandt, and Valasquez, they are dealing in the
:35:00. > :35:04.extraordinary business of artificial light, and what is cinema, no more
:35:05. > :35:08.or no less than the manipulation of artificial light. A little while ago
:35:09. > :35:13.you said when you reach the age of 80 you would kill yourself? I live
:35:14. > :35:17.in Holland where euthanasia is not a dirty word. I cannot think of
:35:18. > :35:33.anybody who has done anything really valuable after 80. Can you, tolls
:35:34. > :35:38.toy d toll -- Tostoy only died at 82 but didn't do anything useful. I
:35:39. > :35:46.think the old should move asides and let the enterprising young step
:35:47. > :35:49.forward. I'm a good Darwinian, I have four children and passed on the
:35:50. > :35:54.genetic material and I can't think of anything more important than
:35:55. > :35:57.procreation. I'm engaged with film making enterprising and exciting,
:35:58. > :36:14.but only filling in the time between now and death. Relaxed or
:36:15. > :36:31.entrepeneurial or lazy, generation Y have come of age. Our reporter is
:36:32. > :36:36.certainly in the demographic. When you think of political radical its,
:36:37. > :36:42.you probably don't think of -- radical, you probably don't think of
:36:43. > :36:44.generation Y, today's 18-30s, yet this generation might represent the
:36:45. > :36:47.biggest this generation might represent the
:36:48. > :36:51.the Second World War. A generation that redefines politics in our
:36:52. > :36:56.society in its own image just as the great post-war generation did 70
:36:57. > :36:59.years ago. We are not talking about technology tweeting or texting, we
:37:00. > :37:04.are talking about a revolution in how we are thinking. They might not
:37:05. > :37:09.know it, but if generation Y has a spiritual home then it is here, at
:37:10. > :37:13.the economist tower, the home of the magazine which for centuries
:37:14. > :37:20.espoused a form of political, social and economic liberalism, which is
:37:21. > :37:23.precisely where my generation is at. They held a lot of views that
:37:24. > :37:29.conventionally might be called right-wing, they are more likely to
:37:30. > :37:31.support privatisation, and more instinctively comfortable with
:37:32. > :37:34.business, and the role of the private sector, and less comfortable
:37:35. > :37:38.with the role of the monolithic welfare state. On social issues they
:37:39. > :37:44.are more conventionally left-wing, they are liberal on matters of
:37:45. > :37:46.sexual and racial and other forms of cultural identity. They are a
:37:47. > :37:51.mixture of both. But on economic matters they tend to the right. They
:37:52. > :37:53.are more individualistic than previous generations were at the
:37:54. > :37:59.same points in their lives. This is more than just an age effect as
:38:00. > :38:03.sociologists call it, it is a generational effect. Data from Ipsos
:38:04. > :38:07.mori confirms this view, for example, when asked whether taxes
:38:08. > :38:10.should go up to support increases in unemployment benefit, generation Y
:38:11. > :38:13.were the least likely to think they should. Their parents of the same
:38:14. > :38:22.age on the other hand were overwhelmingly in favour. Rather
:38:23. > :38:26.than relying on pollsters and journalists in London, Newsnight
:38:27. > :38:30.decided to test this in an unscientific way, going to a college
:38:31. > :38:35.in Nottinghamshire to talk to some of the younger members of the
:38:36. > :38:40.generation Y. Should jobseeker's allowance be time-limited? All of
:38:41. > :38:45.you think yes. Why? I think it gives people Anne sentive that if they
:38:46. > :38:51.have got a - -- an incentive, if they have a time limit they have to
:38:52. > :38:54.work especially hard to get a job, and we need that incentive in
:38:55. > :38:58.society now, too many people are relying on the benefits system to
:38:59. > :39:04.give what they need, it is tough love. It would encourage people to
:39:05. > :39:10.not spend essentially too much time or their entire lives, perhaps not
:39:11. > :39:14.contributing to society, and I feel there is a ticking timebomb
:39:15. > :39:23.situation perhaps motivating people to go and find a job. Even though
:39:24. > :39:27.some have described them as the jilted generation, they don't seem
:39:28. > :39:37.keen on robbing the rich to feed the young poor? Should the Government
:39:38. > :39:41.have inheritance tax? It is just legalised grave robbing. If a person
:39:42. > :39:45.their entire life has worked and tried to create something and they
:39:46. > :39:48.want to pass it on to the next generation, I don't think the
:39:49. > :39:51.Government should have any say or power in what happens to it. This
:39:52. > :39:54.group didn't want the state support, they saw it as their responsibility
:39:55. > :39:59.to get a jobs, thought they should pay their own tuition fees and
:40:00. > :40:03.generally want to be self-reliant. The question is why has this shift
:40:04. > :40:09.taken place. One man who thinks he knows the answer is Ryan Shorthouse,
:40:10. > :40:15.who from his own front room in London runs his think-tank Bright
:40:16. > :40:20.Blue, that lobbies for liberalism in the Conservative Party. I think it
:40:21. > :40:24.is generation DIY, do it yourself. There has been a huge rise in the
:40:25. > :40:32.number of young people who are self-played, a 55% -- self-employed,
:40:33. > :40:36.a 55% rise. A lot of people have adopted Thatcher's views, a belief
:40:37. > :40:40.in a small state and privatisation. Also political discourse is
:40:41. > :40:44.dominated by ambition, opportunity, they are words that are often put
:40:45. > :40:47.out there and have been adopted by both the Thatcher Government and the
:40:48. > :40:57.new Labour Government. I think young people have really swallowed that.
:40:58. > :41:01.Are we missing the bleeding obvious, this is the first generation to grow
:41:02. > :41:16.up with the Internet as an ever-present force in their lives.
:41:17. > :41:21.Brixton building here used to be John Major's father used to speak
:41:22. > :41:26.but now it is a trendy pub. We all grew up in the age of the internet
:41:27. > :41:31.which has given us a thirst for individualism and actually made us
:41:32. > :41:35.quite competitive, documenting our lives competitively on social media.
:41:36. > :41:40.With a social media generation and it is all me, me, me, that is kind
:41:41. > :41:48.of good if you can harness it into a positive thing. The rise of this new
:41:49. > :41:57.selfie generation poses huge questions, one of them is this, can
:41:58. > :42:03.those born in an era of collectism, the welfare state, the BBC, maybe
:42:04. > :42:10.the idea of a nation itself, survive the transition to my generation
:42:11. > :42:19.where the individual is king. My guests join me to discuss this.
:42:20. > :42:23.First of all, when Sarah was your age she was out on the streets
:42:24. > :42:27.campaigning, that doesn't happen any more, have all the battles been won
:42:28. > :42:32.or you just don't care? For me I look at the process that I have
:42:33. > :42:36.seen, those on the Iraq War and on student finance, they have been lost
:42:37. > :42:39.and I think young people are now thinking well we won't bother with
:42:40. > :42:43.that, we will just really power on and try to do well for ourselves. Do
:42:44. > :42:46.you think that is a healthy thing, do you think it is selfish? I don't
:42:47. > :42:50.think it is selfish, I think actually we can take a real
:42:51. > :42:53.positivity from that. I think self-responsibility is so important,
:42:54. > :42:58.especially with finance. People really need to be taking personal
:42:59. > :43:02.responsibility for their own finance. Rather than leaving it to
:43:03. > :43:06.some kind of collective responsibility? As we heard on the
:43:07. > :43:11.video they don't want to be falling back on the state. Do you think you
:43:12. > :43:15.did the heavy lifting? We did the heavy lifting on social issues, and
:43:16. > :43:19.we were very effective in doing it. And partly the irony we were
:43:20. > :43:24.effective in doing it is not just because there was a lot of us but
:43:25. > :43:28.because we grew up in a welfare state that made us more equal and
:43:29. > :43:32.made us good at protesting because we had the safety net. Do you
:43:33. > :43:36.recognise what generation Y seems to be, the kind of tenets of it now,
:43:37. > :43:41.are they attuned to your daughters, not in a negative way, but you have
:43:42. > :43:43.daughters, does it feel more individualistic or feel that
:43:44. > :43:48.actually they are out for something that is a different thing, they are
:43:49. > :43:52.not out for the general good? It feels like a generation under siege,
:43:53. > :43:57.and not a generation under siege from social issues but economic
:43:58. > :44:01.issues. Those economic issues are so big that it is very hard to know how
:44:02. > :44:05.they can protest against them. What you are saying is they are so
:44:06. > :44:09.desperate trying to get on to the jobs and housing ladder they haven't
:44:10. > :44:13.got time to even talk about mainstream broad politics? It is not
:44:14. > :44:17.even they haven't got time it is the issues are so big and when they go
:44:18. > :44:22.to the Government the Government's attitude is what can we do about it
:44:23. > :44:26.is too big for us. I agree with you, most of the people featured on the
:44:27. > :44:30.video have no idea of the economic reality of their situation. What
:44:31. > :44:35.they have been very exposed to are very negative conotations of people
:44:36. > :44:40.who are on benefits, programmes like Benefits Street, projecting quite...
:44:41. > :44:44.Does that mean they don't want to take part in the wider discourse in
:44:45. > :44:49.society, that they are too busy, selfies, on-line, blaming the
:44:50. > :44:52.baby-boomers for drinking the well try? This is a view of the
:44:53. > :44:56.generation that older generations have created actually. What the
:44:57. > :45:00.younger generation hasn't seen is a world that they have lived in
:45:01. > :45:03.without the welfare state and the NHS. If they did see that and
:45:04. > :45:07.experience that their views might change. It is interesting because we
:45:08. > :45:11.are now in a situation where you know there is different priorities
:45:12. > :45:15.for a generation Y, and there is an ageing population, and as Lewis
:45:16. > :45:21.said, institutions like the NHS and so forth, they are not invested in
:45:22. > :45:24.them. So what's going to happen when we're nearly shuffling off the
:45:25. > :45:29.mortal coil, will anyone be looking after us? What I suspect is there is
:45:30. > :45:32.one leftover social battle that the baby-boomers didn't fight and we
:45:33. > :45:37.have yet to win, which is the right to die. I would actually suggest
:45:38. > :45:41.that rather like your Peter Greenaway film, very few of us
:45:42. > :45:47.actually want to be infirm and badly cared for with dementia. We would
:45:48. > :45:51.actually like to make the final choice up until then. What we will
:45:52. > :45:55.do is help generation Y by deciding when and where we go, and as long as
:45:56. > :45:59.we sort out the inheritance tax, maybe we will hand on some money to
:46:00. > :46:03.help them. Would you like that or actually would you like to think
:46:04. > :46:08.that you have become more caring as you get older? It is not about lack
:46:09. > :46:12.of care. Looking after the older generation or do they have to
:46:13. > :46:16.literally get lost? I know pensions will get massively more expensive
:46:17. > :46:20.for the taxpayer in the state pension and also the private
:46:21. > :46:23.pensions that young people are receiving are absolute chicken feed
:46:24. > :46:28.compared to what older generations have had. We are seeing older
:46:29. > :46:31.generations retiring now and they are on the breadline. What will
:46:32. > :46:35.happen to us, that is what we need to think about. We have to know what
:46:36. > :46:40.we are attacking here, when generation Y talks so rudely about
:46:41. > :46:44.the welfare state and benefits scroungers, we have to ask serious
:46:45. > :46:47.questions, the welfare state didn't cause the recession we are in. You
:46:48. > :46:53.are concerned about pensions and welfare and why aren't you out there
:46:54. > :46:56.with placards? I'm making my career about writing about this and trying
:46:57. > :47:01.to get older generations to see exactly what's going on. And you are
:47:02. > :47:04.absolutely right, we managed to make protests work because we learned it
:47:05. > :47:08.from the cradle to the grave. They have failed with two very important
:47:09. > :47:12.protests so you can blame both political parties for that, Labour
:47:13. > :47:18.with the Ir War and this one. We will be discussing this for time to
:47:19. > :47:22.come. All we have time for tonight, good night.
:47:23. > :47:27.come. All we have time for tonight, good night.
:47:28. > :47:33.We saw 26 degrees in the sunshine, but also for eastern areas intense
:47:34. > :47:37.rain which will continue overnight, finally petering out through Friday
:47:38. > :47:42.morning. We think still some nasty conditions around for the rush hour,
:47:43. > :47:44.sea fog near the east coast, the odd patch of fog will clear, and a good
:47:45. > :47:45.deal