:00:07. > :00:09.secretary, William Hague, announces he is to step down, who will take
:00:10. > :00:14.his place, as David Cameron reshuffles the rest of his cabinet,
:00:15. > :00:19.ten men lose their jobs. Is this a new era at Westminster. Our
:00:20. > :00:25.political editor is here to answer that. And this: The motion has been
:00:26. > :00:28.carried in all three houses. The Church of England finally votes to
:00:29. > :00:34.allow women to become bishop, what has changed? We will talk live to
:00:35. > :00:41.the Archbishop of Canterbury. And how did middle-class white boy
:00:42. > :00:48.Ed Sheeran get named the most important man in black and urban
:00:49. > :00:53.music, his collaborator is here to explain.
:00:54. > :00:56.Good evening, it was not a good night to be man in cabinet, it was
:00:57. > :01:06.not a good night to be middle-aged in cabinet. The prime ministerial
:01:07. > :01:10.Prime Minister's purge was deep and interesting. The man removing
:01:11. > :01:12.himself from office, the Foreign Secretary, William Hague, will be
:01:13. > :01:16.stepping down with immediate effect, but staying on as Leader of the
:01:17. > :01:19.House, and helping to one run the election campaign. Ten men of
:01:20. > :01:24.cabinet level or just below have been fired, making way, you have to
:01:25. > :01:27.assume for more women, or possibly for politicians with different
:01:28. > :01:31.leanings. Our political editor is here to make some sense of this.
:01:32. > :01:34.What do you make into this? This is the team David Cameron wants to go
:01:35. > :01:40.into the next election with. These are the people that will be on sets
:01:41. > :01:51.likes ours. What tomorrow will announce is many, many more women,
:01:52. > :01:53.think about Francois Holland, he's Government, and David Cameron said a
:01:54. > :02:03.third of the Government would be women. And one of the women brought
:02:04. > :02:06.in was born in 1972, a massive theme of youth over necessarily
:02:07. > :02:09.experience. And aside from gender, what other themes do you think in
:02:10. > :02:15.terms of their political leanings? I think gender and youth will actually
:02:16. > :02:18.mask quite a lot of mosaic shuffling on ideology. We understand this
:02:19. > :02:21.evening that there is a lot of unhappiness on the right of the
:02:22. > :02:24.party over what we understand is the departure of Owen Patterson, the
:02:25. > :02:29.Environment Secretary, people at the very highest levels of the party
:02:30. > :02:33.feel with his departure the right isn't adequately enough looked
:02:34. > :02:37.after. That said, we also understand the Attorney General is depart, he
:02:38. > :02:41.was seen to be a massive protector of the ECHR, the Tories have always
:02:42. > :02:45.wanted to move on that as a way of showing they would be hard on
:02:46. > :02:50.Europe. So it is a difficult picture to read. But there is unhappiness
:02:51. > :02:58.across quite a vast swathe of the party. One name that doesn't fit any
:02:59. > :03:04.part of the party, Bob Purslow. It is thought that the head of the home
:03:05. > :03:09.Civil Service, Bob Curslow, a mature gentleman who is off. This is
:03:10. > :03:12.because of massive rows with politicians about his eagerness to
:03:13. > :03:16.reform the Civil Service. We did something last week that showed the
:03:17. > :03:20.unhappiness, the fractiousness between the two sides, he's now off.
:03:21. > :03:26.Thought not to have performed well enough across Government. The
:03:27. > :03:30.biggest news possibly today is William Hague's departure. He will
:03:31. > :03:33.stay in Government, he will stay as leader, but he won't be Foreign
:03:34. > :03:40.Secretary. He will leave parliament next year. For lovers of his book,
:03:41. > :03:45.they won't mind, I'm sure he will write many more books. It is all
:03:46. > :03:50.right for some of you, half of you won't be here in 30 or 40 years
:03:51. > :03:53.time. And now in a reshuffle some 40 years on William Hague is also off.
:03:54. > :04:01.He's leaving the Foreign Office tonight and parliament next year.
:04:02. > :04:09.First becoming an MP in 1989 he rose to John Major's cabinet and by 1997
:04:10. > :04:13.was leader himself. Much derided for turning up at the Notting Hill
:04:14. > :04:18.Carnival, it was actually an early attempt at Tory modernisation that
:04:19. > :04:24.didn't work. Hardline on Europe and immigration, his offer fell on deaf
:04:25. > :04:28.ears and he resigned as story leader after the 2001 election. I have
:04:29. > :04:36.decided to step down as leader of the Conservative Party. He went on
:04:37. > :04:40.to write political biographies, enormously successful. His
:04:41. > :04:43.reappearance lent the new Tory leader credibility. In the decade
:04:44. > :04:47.since, along with George Osborne, he has been a steady part of the big
:04:48. > :04:51.three on the top of the Tory Party. As Foreign Secretary, insiders say
:04:52. > :04:55.William Hague's attitude towards Europe softened as the rest of his
:04:56. > :04:58.party's attitude hardened. With three possible years of
:04:59. > :05:04.renegotiation with Europe, the Foreign Secretary may not have been
:05:05. > :05:08.his cup of tea. The ayes to the right 272, the nos to the left 285.
:05:09. > :05:12.Parliament's rejection of military action in Syria last September is
:05:13. > :05:18.said to have rocked him, blindsiding the whole of the Prime Minister's
:05:19. > :05:21.foreign policy team. Now William Hague ditches warzones around the
:05:22. > :05:27.world for the general election battleground. He remains the deputy
:05:28. > :05:30.to the next election, and on to the hostile environment if you are a
:05:31. > :05:33.Tory, the north of England. Soon William Hague will leave parliament,
:05:34. > :05:38.probably for a life penning paperback, he has been working on a
:05:39. > :05:52.history of foreign secretaries, and now has another chapter to write.
:05:53. > :05:56.I'm joined by my guests now. Danny Finklestein. Danny this probably
:05:57. > :06:01.didn't come as a surprise to you, I'm guessing, you have worked very
:06:02. > :06:05.closely, what was in his mind? In the period between being leader of
:06:06. > :06:09.the Conservative Party and coming back as shadow Foreign Secretary, he
:06:10. > :06:13.really enjoyed himself doing things like amazing to his friends,
:06:14. > :06:17.learning to play the piano, and writing his political biographies.
:06:18. > :06:21.He was quite reluctant as returning, he saw it as his duty and also he
:06:22. > :06:25.was unfulfilled because he hadn't had the senior office. They really
:06:26. > :06:29.didn't want him to go. But he was insistent on it. I think it is just
:06:30. > :06:34.about having a life. It is as simple as that. He has reached 53 years
:06:35. > :06:38.old, and he wants to do other things with his life. He's not really going
:06:39. > :06:41.to have a life, he will still be Leader of the House, and still going
:06:42. > :06:46.to be part of the campaign? So you know for a year and then he will go
:06:47. > :06:49.off and you know and leave parliament and then he will begin
:06:50. > :06:54.with the various things that he was doing. I'm sure a book will be part
:06:55. > :06:58.of it. I don't know what his expect plans are, I think the most
:06:59. > :07:00.important thing for a Foreign Secretary, he was going around the
:07:01. > :07:04.world, he didn't spend much time in the country. He didn't see his
:07:05. > :07:08.friends, his family, you know it was a period that was quite hard, his
:07:09. > :07:11.mother died, for example, I think he probably just wants a bit more of a
:07:12. > :07:16.life. And he has done the big things. He is not going to be Prime
:07:17. > :07:18.Minister, I think he thinks. He has been Foreign Secretary, it is time
:07:19. > :07:22.to do something else. There was speculation it might be Theresa May
:07:23. > :07:26.going into that role or a woman, we have just had it confirmed it is
:07:27. > :07:31.Philip Hammond. What should we read into who is coming in? I think we
:07:32. > :07:35.are expecting to see more women being promoted, but you can't move a
:07:36. > :07:38.woman from a very low rank in the Government all wait to Foreign
:07:39. > :07:41.Secretary. It is one of the great offices of state. So you need one
:07:42. > :07:45.with a great deal of experience and Philip Hammond does answer that. He
:07:46. > :07:52.is a trouble shooter, I guess. In terms of Hague's tenure as Foreign
:07:53. > :07:56.Secretary, do we think of it as a success? Has he made a good fist of
:07:57. > :07:58.it? I don't think there is a huge Hague legacy as Foreign Secretary.
:07:59. > :08:04.He did a lot of good for him. He shook off the image you saw there as
:08:05. > :08:09.a 16-year-old nerd and the baseball hat at Nottingham carnival, and did
:08:10. > :08:14.become statesman-like in his own persona. I don't think people can
:08:15. > :08:18.point to a Hague doctrine or huge achievement as Foreign Secretary. He
:08:19. > :08:21.had a great vision of Britain as the great trading nation and there is
:08:22. > :08:24.some controversy over it, with British embassies around the world
:08:25. > :08:27.having receptions for the Queen's birthday being sponsored, but the
:08:28. > :08:30.planes flying off filled with businessmen. That was the vision and
:08:31. > :08:35.then it was really knocked off by the Arab Spring and the war in
:08:36. > :08:38.Libya. He got into trouble with that, we remember the whole
:08:39. > :08:43.situation with Libya where he didn't manage to rescue the
:08:44. > :08:44.I think he had in. There was a chaotic start. That was then
:08:45. > :08:48.overcome by events and chaotic start. That was then
:08:49. > :08:54.appearance any way of military success. But behind the scenes I'm
:08:55. > :08:59.told with Michael Gove, he was very gung ho for that, and really
:09:00. > :09:05.self-avowed neo-Conservative, William Hague had much more adopted
:09:06. > :09:09.the different view of the world. It was Michael Gove in the inner
:09:10. > :09:12.councils more than William Hague, and people have gone saying for the
:09:13. > :09:20.last few months he had checked out and gone native in the Foreign
:09:21. > :09:25.Office. He's not an idea lowing, d idealogue, he has grassroots link,
:09:26. > :09:28.which David Cameron will miss. But he will have it for the next nine
:09:29. > :09:35.months, he will miss it afterwards. He's not an idealogue, there is a
:09:36. > :09:39.strong streak of pragmatisim about him. Philip Hammond's appointment,
:09:40. > :09:44.if that is who becomes Foreign Secretary is interesting. He is, I
:09:45. > :09:49.think, more euro-sceptic th William Hague, possibly less reliably an
:09:50. > :09:53.ally of the Chancellor and the Prime Minister. He's more his own person
:09:54. > :09:59.than William Hague who was much part of the team. So he's less reliable
:10:00. > :10:02.how he will come out. It is an interesting I think introduction to
:10:03. > :10:07.any negotiations that take place in Europe if they win. He comes from
:10:08. > :10:12.harder line. We will see right and left coming in here, what do you
:10:13. > :10:15.think, Allegra was mentioning the European Court of Human Rights, if
:10:16. > :10:19.you look at the swathe of men all going out they were all advocates?
:10:20. > :10:22.Yes, and I suppose moving William Hague, there was a suspicion he had
:10:23. > :10:26.gone native at the Foreign Office and I bumped into a senior
:10:27. > :10:30.euro-sceptic earlier in parliament when rumours that Owen Patterson had
:10:31. > :10:34.been sacked for circulating. He was furious saying we don't have one of
:10:35. > :10:39.us in the higher ranks of Government any more. Who is that? Someone in a
:10:40. > :10:43.euro-sceptics' point of view who hasn't gone native or taking the
:10:44. > :10:47.Whitehall mandarin line on Europe. If you listen to William Hague's
:10:48. > :10:50.speeches on Europe at the Conservative Party Conferences he
:10:51. > :10:53.was no long ermine mallist, he talked about using Europe to tackle
:10:54. > :10:58.climate change, which a lot of politicians may agree but
:10:59. > :11:03.euro-sceptic didn't. He was elected leader in 1997 as the euro-sceptic
:11:04. > :11:08.candidate, part of Europe but not run by Europe, but in the end he's
:11:09. > :11:12.seen as the Foreign Office man and not euro-sceptic enough. It is not
:11:13. > :11:17.quite enough, that last sentence is correct. There is a move among
:11:18. > :11:19.euro-sceptics, there are more euro-sceptics in favour of leaving.
:11:20. > :11:22.And William Hague's position has never been that. He has been in
:11:23. > :11:27.favour of being in Europe but not run by Europe. That red meat
:11:28. > :11:33.position was not enough for the Tory Party today. This awful phrase,
:11:34. > :11:37."pale, steal, male", there is the whole catalogue of the middle-aged
:11:38. > :11:41.man leaving? It is generational. Look at the people who left. They
:11:42. > :11:46.were worried that David Cameron was stepping over them to be leader.
:11:47. > :11:49.Many supported David Davis, for generational leaders, for the reason
:11:50. > :11:52.this reshuffle would happen one day. At the end of the parliament when
:11:53. > :11:55.you haven't reshuffled and you have a five-year parliament, people will
:11:56. > :12:01.think what will I do with the next five years. David Willett has
:12:02. > :12:05.decided if he doesn't want to be an MP for the next five years I can't
:12:06. > :12:09.stay in the reshuffle, he has gone of his on volition. That has
:12:10. > :12:14.happened to a few people. But it is generational as well as anything
:12:15. > :12:17.else. Are the young and female there, I don't know why I'm asking
:12:18. > :12:22.you, that is unfair, I happened to catch your eye? There are impressive
:12:23. > :12:27.female Tory MPs, Cameron is lucky, he knows he has to promote women,
:12:28. > :12:32.and he can look to the backbenches and see good prospects. The good
:12:33. > :12:36.news about people he could be promoting, such as Priti Patel, they
:12:37. > :12:39.are not just good women but robust euro-sceptics. If they are looking
:12:40. > :12:42.for someone to satisfy the euro-sceptics you have those on the
:12:43. > :12:48.backbenches as well. That is the interesting, you will get hardcore
:12:49. > :12:53.Thatcherites and euro-sceptics. Mr Fox is coming back? It will please
:12:54. > :12:57.those about Owen Patterson? Not all of them, some are unhappy about him
:12:58. > :13:02.coming back. It is a taint and he left under a big cloud and that is a
:13:03. > :13:07.Di Canio of worms. I was talking about diversity, it is not just
:13:08. > :13:10.about gender, Sajid Javid and Priti Patel. This is good for a
:13:11. > :13:16.Conservative Party want to go stay in tough with Britain. The left will
:13:17. > :13:20.say it is window dressing. Will the voter notice? Most people don't know
:13:21. > :13:23.who the people are, they don't therefore care whether they move
:13:24. > :13:27.from one position to another. I think it does matter of course the
:13:28. > :13:30.balance of women and men for example that matters. And generational
:13:31. > :13:33.matters. But the most important thing is where will it leave the
:13:34. > :13:36.Government, therefore you have to analyse Philip Hammond's promotion
:13:37. > :13:40.in substantive terms, what difference will it actually make to
:13:41. > :13:45.policy. I think there definitely will be a shift from William Hague.
:13:46. > :13:48.If you mention the European Court of Human Rights, you have people who
:13:49. > :13:53.would have been custodians and protectors of that Keneth Clarke,
:13:54. > :13:57.Damien Greening, they are now out, you wonder if that is preparing a
:13:58. > :13:59.manifesto promise to scrap Britain's involvement in the European
:14:00. > :14:02.convention and scrap the Human Rights Act and bring something else
:14:03. > :14:09.in its place. Thank you very much for coming in.
:14:10. > :14:12.4. 29pm, history was made, the three houses of the Anglican bishops,
:14:13. > :14:16.Clergy and Laity, all vote today allow women to become bishops, a
:14:17. > :14:22.perfect Church of England moment. A radical ground-breaking move greeted
:14:23. > :14:27.by the synod in the halls a gentle clap befitting of a Sunday afternoon
:14:28. > :14:30.cricket team. It is not the first time it was put to the vote but the
:14:31. > :14:34.first time it was one. The big question, what has changed within
:14:35. > :14:37.the church, its leadership and society. What happens to those who
:14:38. > :14:41.fundamentally disagree with such a month. We speak live to the
:14:42. > :14:48.Archbishop of Canterbury in a moment. On my first Sunday service
:14:49. > :14:53.in the parish, which is a parish with a tradition of saying "father"
:14:54. > :14:57.i toad in front of them in -- I stood in front of them in my robes
:14:58. > :15:03.and I said it is clearly obvious I'm not father. For Reverend Rose, the
:15:04. > :15:07.decision on bishops has been far too long in the making. It is 22 years
:15:08. > :15:12.since women were allowed to become priests. Back then Reverend Rose was
:15:13. > :15:16.there campaigning. I went to one of these sign-maker places and got them
:15:17. > :15:22.to make the sign up for me. When they asked me what are you putting
:15:23. > :15:26.on it I wrote there and then, "women beautifully and wonderfully made in
:15:27. > :15:29.the image of God". Today they were made equal in the Church of England
:15:30. > :15:34.too. Cheers everybody. Women will be welcomed into the top ranks. And the
:15:35. > :15:42.momentous vote got the bishops up for a boogie.
:15:43. > :15:50.# We are dancing in the light of God # We are dancing in the light of God
:15:51. > :15:54.I'm not sure whether it is John servicing the alarm... Far away from
:15:55. > :15:57.the General Synod, one of the favourites to become the first
:15:58. > :16:01.female bishop was busy getting on with the mundaneties of life as a
:16:02. > :16:06.parish priest. What else have you put in? Loo, I'm
:16:07. > :16:15.really excited. You have to see the loos. I will be known as the vicar
:16:16. > :16:19.who put in first class loos claim! We spent the day with a vicar who
:16:20. > :16:22.knows what matters? I'm exceptionally proud of the toilets
:16:23. > :16:28.that we have put in, exceptionally proud. Nice. Would a male priest
:16:29. > :16:33.have thought about putting in the loos? Ha ha. I will be upset because
:16:34. > :16:37.I don't think it is the way that the church should move, I think that it
:16:38. > :16:42.disadvantages us in so many ways. As the synod debated an issue that has
:16:43. > :16:50.divided Anglicans for decades, we invited an opponent of the
:16:51. > :16:54.ordination of women to meet Rose and a parishioner. You don't support the
:16:55. > :16:58.women bishops? No. You think as a woman I can come to you as a bishop
:16:59. > :17:02.and you could help me more than a woman could? Not at all. Because I
:17:03. > :17:06.think at the heart of being a bishop isn't all of the day-to-day things
:17:07. > :17:09.that people do, it is about being that focus for unity. You were
:17:10. > :17:12.talking about women in ministry, I want to see women in ministry, I
:17:13. > :17:16.don't think you have to put a collar around your neck to put a woman in
:17:17. > :17:21.ministry. You see yourselves asset apart in this holy order that nobody
:17:22. > :17:25.else in particular, a woman, can ever be a part of because of our
:17:26. > :17:28.gender. I don't think that I'm set apart in a way that makes me better
:17:29. > :17:34.than anybody else in the church. I think that I have a particular role
:17:35. > :17:37.in the church, which is to celebrate the sacraments as a priest, I don't
:17:38. > :17:40.think that is any more or less important than somebody being the
:17:41. > :17:42.chair of a charity in the church, or chair of the PCC or
:17:43. > :17:43.chair of a charity in the church, or why have we decided that the priest
:17:44. > :17:47.is the why have we decided that the priest
:17:48. > :17:50.anyone else. Well I certainly don't think so, but what I certainly
:17:51. > :17:55.believe is that I also have been called to celebrate the sacrament,
:17:56. > :18:01.and because of my gender, for such a long time, the church caught up with
:18:02. > :18:05.the tradition and th cultural practices have actually said women
:18:06. > :18:10.can't and we bought into that for such a long time. I have to say you
:18:11. > :18:13.are not at a disadvantage if you are not ordained, I don't believe that
:18:14. > :18:16.because I have a collar around my neck I'm more important than other
:18:17. > :18:20.people in the church, than lay people. But you are perceived as
:18:21. > :18:24.more important and as the most important in this church? That is
:18:25. > :18:28.why I think the focus should have been correcting the clericalism of
:18:29. > :18:32.the church. As her colleagues prepared to take the historic vote,
:18:33. > :18:37.we accompanied Reverend Rose to her other job. She's Speaker's Chaplain
:18:38. > :18:40.in the House of Commons, it is a role that comes with its own
:18:41. > :18:45.dresser. I certainly have no ambition or desire to be a bishop.
:18:46. > :18:49.My greatest ambition was actually to meet Desmond Tutu and Nelson
:18:50. > :18:55.Mandela, I have achieved my ambition in the church. I have had my great
:18:56. > :19:00.experience, Lord, now let that servant depart in peace! The motion
:19:01. > :19:04.has been carried in all three houses. Today's vote means someone,
:19:05. > :19:08.if not Reverend Rose will be first, England could get a female bishop by
:19:09. > :19:14.the end of the year. I feel like singing the song that they sang when
:19:15. > :19:22.Barack Obama was "change gonna come... It has been a long time
:19:23. > :19:27.coming. I think this is a moment for the church to look at and say now
:19:28. > :19:36.let's get on with it. Let's get on with it. Joining us now from York
:19:37. > :19:39.the Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welsby. Thank you very much indeed
:19:40. > :19:45.for joining us this evening. What do you think changed to allow the vote
:19:46. > :19:50.to go through? I think quite a lot of things changed. There was a real
:19:51. > :19:54.sense of gentleness and grace in the way it worked over the last few
:19:55. > :19:58.months. There has been much more listening to each other, much more
:19:59. > :20:04.conversation. Much more graciousness, much more willingness
:20:05. > :20:07.to treat each other in a human way. That's been a major cultural change
:20:08. > :20:11.in the way the church has worked. Do you think this will be
:20:12. > :20:20.transformative to the church as a whole? Yes, I do. I think it will be
:20:21. > :20:24.transformative, I think there is two particular aspects to that. I'm
:20:25. > :20:28.delighted personally that we are going to ordain women as bishops.
:20:29. > :20:32.That is something I have been looking forward to very, very much.
:20:33. > :20:36.And it is hugely exciting. But at the same time I'm aware that there
:20:37. > :20:40.are a lot of people who will be struggling with this. And I think
:20:41. > :20:44.you have one of them on your programme a few moments ago. The two
:20:45. > :20:50.changes, one we have made the decision to do it, but the second is
:20:51. > :20:55.that the way we're going to do it is to hold everyone together. To treat
:20:56. > :20:58.people as family not as party groups in which you chuck out the people
:20:59. > :21:03.you disagree with. It is the opposite. To enable, we're committed
:21:04. > :21:06.to enabling everyone to flourish, that is really important. Let me ask
:21:07. > :21:10.you, when you were putting forward the arguments, you said the general
:21:11. > :21:13.public would find it incomprehensible that we can't have
:21:14. > :21:16.women bishops. It is interesting you talk about the general public. I'm
:21:17. > :21:21.wondering if you think that the church is influenced by societal
:21:22. > :21:32.norms then. If society changes the church must? That is two questions.
:21:33. > :21:36.It is a very good question. I think to some degree all churches are
:21:37. > :21:39.always influenced by the culture in which they live. Because everyone
:21:40. > :21:42.who comes to the church is part of that culture. But it was very
:21:43. > :21:47.interesting to me today, listening to the very long debate, that it was
:21:48. > :21:50.essentially about theology, more than about culture. That argument
:21:51. > :21:57.was not one that came forward very strongly, it was a question of what
:21:58. > :22:02.is right before God in obedience to yes suss Christ -- obedience to
:22:03. > :22:06.Jesus Christ, loving one each other and the society we live. Of course
:22:07. > :22:10.we are influenced by society, but it was a theologically-based decision.
:22:11. > :22:15.If you use some of those phrases "loving one another" and "loving the
:22:16. > :22:20.society in which we live", we know it has taken 25 years to get to
:22:21. > :22:25.women priests. Will it be OK for a gay bishop to engage in a regular
:22:26. > :22:32.active sex life in 25 years or sooner, using those same arguments
:22:33. > :22:37.you just put forward? Today has been about the ordination of women to the
:22:38. > :22:42.Church of England. We are starting conversations which are going to be
:22:43. > :22:45.guided conversations over the issues of sexuality and I'm really not
:22:46. > :22:49.going to get into that, because it would be pre-empting the decisions.
:22:50. > :22:56.But it feels like you would support that on a personal level, would you?
:22:57. > :23:00.As I say I'm not going to get into it. I think we have a long way to go
:23:01. > :23:06.as part of the guided conversations and no predetermined outcome and I'm
:23:07. > :23:12.just quietly delighting in what's happened today in the affirmation of
:23:13. > :23:15.women across the country and the Church of England and in the fact
:23:16. > :23:19.that the church has come together so well. I think a lot of people will
:23:20. > :23:23.have sympathy with your position on this, which you said was you know
:23:24. > :23:29.confused in its own way. When you are guiding those conversations how
:23:30. > :23:35.are you guiding them. I think you once said the church has not been
:23:36. > :23:39.good at dealing with homophobia, we have empolice Italy and even
:23:40. > :23:46.supported homophobia that demands repentance. Are we to read n I
:23:47. > :23:53.understand -- empolice Italy and even supported homophobia. Is today
:23:54. > :23:56.about modernising the church, where are you guiding those conversations
:23:57. > :24:01.and I understand today is about women bishops? The conversations are
:24:02. > :24:07.guided, I'm glad to say, not by me, but by the House of bishops and all
:24:08. > :24:10.those in the church. It is something where we are learning to treat each
:24:11. > :24:13.other better than we did. You ask the change, the biggest change in
:24:14. > :24:17.the last 20 months has been the way we treat each other, and the way we
:24:18. > :24:21.are learning to treat people we disagree with. As we go forward with
:24:22. > :24:26.the discussion on sexuality, it is that quality of discussion of love
:24:27. > :24:32.and affection for one another that will be absolutely crucial. Of
:24:33. > :24:35.course it is difficult, life is difficult, there is no point in
:24:36. > :24:38.pretending otherwise, there is disagreements. It is wonderful when
:24:39. > :24:45.you get to an evening like this and there is a decision being taken and
:24:46. > :24:49.you can delight not just in the decision, but in the fact that it
:24:50. > :24:53.has been done well and then face the challenge as we go forward of other
:24:54. > :24:58.decisions, discussions we have to have. But also the huge challenge of
:24:59. > :25:03.delivering what we have promised this evening. And above all of
:25:04. > :25:08.delivering the church in its ministry in the world. The bishops
:25:09. > :25:14.are deeply deeply committed to that. When people look to the church for
:25:15. > :25:18.leadership, on the other issues that surround them, for example not gay
:25:19. > :25:24.Clergy but gay marriage, is that somewhere that you feel you are
:25:25. > :25:31.arriving at too? That you could see gay marriages being a positive way
:25:32. > :25:35.to live life? Well, as I have said, a couple of times so fashion and we
:25:36. > :25:40.can go round and round that circle, this evening is really about what's
:25:41. > :25:46.been going on today and I don't want to begin to pre-empt those
:25:47. > :25:49.discussions. Lord Carey said this weekend on the question of right to
:25:50. > :25:53.die and assisted dying that he thought we were in danger of putting
:25:54. > :25:59.doctrine before compassion, and I wonder if you feel that sometimes,
:26:00. > :26:05.again going back to what society is looking for in the norms, whether
:26:06. > :26:10.the church feels held back by those dogmas and doctrines when you
:26:11. > :26:24.yourself have said it is agonising to watch in pain die? It is actually
:26:25. > :26:28.Lord Carey is entitled to speak. It is a major debate going on. He has
:26:29. > :26:31.helped turn that into a much higher profile debate and that is a very,
:26:32. > :26:36.very good thing. Because this is a hugely important question for many
:26:37. > :26:39.of us. And like myself in my own personal experience, as well as my
:26:40. > :26:45.experience as a priest, like loads of friends, we have all got, you
:26:46. > :26:50.have probably got, that we have all had this experience of dealing with
:26:51. > :26:54.people who are, who have the most severe illness and near the end of
:26:55. > :26:59.their life. This isn't a question of doctrine, it is a question of
:27:00. > :27:05.compassion. Lord Carey said it was compassion for the particular person
:27:06. > :27:11.dying, all our Pastoral experience and all the church's Pastoral
:27:12. > :27:16.experience of compassion for people in terrible circumstances is that
:27:17. > :27:22.there is such a risk, such a huge risk of mistreatment, of
:27:23. > :27:26.manipulation, that we are very, very cautious about approaches to
:27:27. > :27:30.assisted dying. It has to be a proper debate. We have to work
:27:31. > :27:37.through the evidence and the issues, but as I wrote over the weekend in
:27:38. > :27:40.one paper, that this is not a difference between one group of
:27:41. > :27:42.people with a hardline of doctrine and another group of people who are
:27:43. > :27:47.saying we have to be compassionate. It is actually saying how we are
:27:48. > :27:51.compassionate and for what it is worth I think that the way he has
:27:52. > :27:57.described compassion is written far too narrowly and with a lack of
:27:58. > :28:00.appreciation for the risk and dangers to people who would be put
:28:01. > :28:05.under pressure if the law changed. That's why we are so against it. You
:28:06. > :28:14.think it would lead to a lot of people dying before they needed to?
:28:15. > :28:18.I think what it leads to is manipulation. I was a parish priest,
:28:19. > :28:26.a curate and a parish priest for ten years and was taking 70 funerals a
:28:27. > :28:30.year average at least. There were some where the families were
:28:31. > :28:33.wonderful and marvellous and others which were pretty grim and others
:28:34. > :28:40.where you were conscious that there was a level of difficulty going on
:28:41. > :28:44.if someone is very ill and they are often going to be depressed, they
:28:45. > :28:48.are often going to be in pain. And they say to their family I'm sure
:28:49. > :28:55.I'm a bit of a burden. You can say of course not, we love you, we value
:28:56. > :29:01.you, we want to care for you, or you can say well we can manage and you
:29:02. > :29:07.can do it in such a way that it creates a sense that the person
:29:08. > :29:14.really feels that the right thing to do is to seek to die. I'm afraid it
:29:15. > :29:18.is a harsh reality, not everyone is nice, not every family is
:29:19. > :29:21.compassionate. And people struggling with terminal illness, with very
:29:22. > :29:27.painful illness with the appalling cases. We have seen and heard about
:29:28. > :29:32.that recently that we have all had to deal with as priest, and often in
:29:33. > :29:36.our own families. I was talking to a bishop the other day who was saying
:29:37. > :29:39.it would have put him under so much pressure. It is very good indeed to
:29:40. > :29:48.talk to you, thank you very much indeed.
:29:49. > :29:52.The Government has talked a big game on tackling tax avoidance in recent
:29:53. > :29:55.years, putting more money into tax inspectors and making big rule
:29:56. > :30:02.changes. Tomorrow is a big development. We are here to explain.
:30:03. > :30:07.Chris tell us what is happening? It is good to see where women are
:30:08. > :30:12.firing out their biggest antitax weapon. They will list a thousand
:30:13. > :30:15.tax avoidance schemes which tens of thousands of members, and those
:30:16. > :30:21.members will be subject to a new thing called the accelerated payment
:30:22. > :30:24.notice. It used to be a case of what HMRC thought was a dodgy tax
:30:25. > :30:28.arrangement, they could take it to court and get the tax back. Under
:30:29. > :30:31.the new process, the accelerated payment process, what happens is
:30:32. > :30:34.they say you are in a dodgy tax scheme what will happen is you will
:30:35. > :30:37.pay us the money and then you can take us to court to get the
:30:38. > :30:42.difference back. So what it does is makes investing in what might be a
:30:43. > :30:46.slightly shady tax avoidance scheme a much nastier proposition. I guess
:30:47. > :30:52.the sort of big political question on all of this is how it will play
:30:53. > :30:58.out. To the extend to which this is a measure that hits very rich famous
:30:59. > :31:01.people possibly, people who don't like comedians we don't think are
:31:02. > :31:05.funny. Nobody will mind. The problem will be when you get tens of
:31:06. > :31:08.thousands of people in your net, you will get some innocent people in
:31:09. > :31:12.there, there are people who have been mis-sold investments in what
:31:13. > :31:17.are effectively tax avoidance products, not really clocking what
:31:18. > :31:21.they were. We came across one in a Newsnight investigation, where
:31:22. > :31:26.people who were hopelessly inadequate to take on the risk we
:31:27. > :31:31.were taking were taking them on. The real challenge for HMRC is how it
:31:32. > :31:35.affects people who shouldn't have been doing it for lots of reasons
:31:36. > :31:40.while making sure it gets money back and it is fair from the richest. We
:31:41. > :31:44.will know more tomorrow. You will. The mother of a vulnerable teenager,
:31:45. > :31:47.who took her own life, after she was arrested, has told this programme
:31:48. > :31:53.her daughter may still be alive if the law had been changed. . As
:31:54. > :31:58.things stand 17-year-olds can be held in police cells overnight as
:31:59. > :32:02.adults, despite a High Court ruling saying they should be given the same
:32:03. > :32:05.rights as children. The families of three teenagers who died shortly
:32:06. > :32:12.after leaving custody have written to the Home Secretary today
:32:13. > :32:16.criticising what they say are the false promises made after the
:32:17. > :32:21.judgment last year. Some of this report may be upsetting. She was
:32:22. > :32:28.talented confident and loving, that was the main thing. She was
:32:29. > :32:34.fun-loving, adventurous, outgoing, beautiful, I just miss her so much.
:32:35. > :32:40.Six months ago Martina's daughter took her own life. She had suffered
:32:41. > :32:44.from depression since the age of 12. Missing lessons, spending time in
:32:45. > :32:49.hospital. She was extremely vulnerable as a 17-year-old. She had
:32:50. > :32:54.a history of self-harm, she had a history of depression, she actually
:32:55. > :33:00.spent some time in hospital with mental health issues. So in terms of
:33:01. > :33:05.vulnerability she was an incredibly vulnerable young girl. On a Saturday
:33:06. > :33:09.afternoon before Christmas, she was arrested at a flat with a small
:33:10. > :33:15.amount of cannabis. She was brought to the police station in Ashton, one
:33:16. > :33:19.of the largest in Manchester. If she had been 16 years old she would have
:33:20. > :33:23.been interviewed here and then sent to a secure children's home, or
:33:24. > :33:29.another form of local authority care. Instead, as a 17-year-old she
:33:30. > :33:32.was treated as an adult, and held in a police cell for three days and two
:33:33. > :33:39.nights, waiting for her court appearance. That, say campaigners,
:33:40. > :33:43.was a clear breach of human rights law, which should treat all
:33:44. > :33:47.under-18s as children. The difference between a police cell and
:33:48. > :33:52.local authority secure accommodation is huge, there are trained staff in
:33:53. > :33:56.local authority places, social workers, people who can care for the
:33:57. > :34:00.welfare of a vulnerable person who would take that person to court and
:34:01. > :34:06.look after their well being. The job of the police is really to detain
:34:07. > :34:12.and prevent phoning. Those children do need that protection. Exactly
:34:13. > :34:16.what happened in that cell we do not know. Greater Manchester Police say
:34:17. > :34:20.they can't comment while an investigation is on going. But as
:34:21. > :34:24.with other forces they are not currently allowed to transfer
:34:25. > :34:29.17-year-olds to local authority care. After a weekend locked up she
:34:30. > :34:34.was taken to court and bailed, her parents say they were not told she
:34:35. > :34:40.had been released. A day later she was found dead. Hanged in a friend's
:34:41. > :34:43.back garden. I don't think she would have coped with it. I don't think
:34:44. > :34:47.she would have coped and that's why we have come to the outcome that we
:34:48. > :34:53.have come to today. I think she would have been distraught. I think
:34:54. > :34:56.that the head banging and the hair pulling would have been the only way
:34:57. > :35:01.she thought she could deal with it. She should have got help while she
:35:02. > :35:05.was in the police station. She shouldn't have been released without
:35:06. > :35:14.contacting anybody. And the whole thing is a total disgrace. It is
:35:15. > :35:19.wrong. It is wrong. It is just destroyed us. It has destroyed me as
:35:20. > :35:27.a mother and the whole family. Totally devastated by the loss of
:35:28. > :35:35.Kesia. It is a total shock, even though we knew she had problems. It
:35:36. > :35:37.is just, I mean you can't describe the pain and the heartbreak that we
:35:38. > :35:48.felt and that we're still feeling. the pain and the heartbreak that we
:35:49. > :35:54.There are no words. Kesia is one of a number of 17-year-olds, all from
:35:55. > :36:02.Manchester to die recently in very similar circumstances. In 2011
:36:03. > :36:07.former head boy Eddie Thornbur killed himself after being caught
:36:08. > :36:13.with 50p worth of Dan business. A year later Joe shot himself on the
:36:14. > :36:16.family firm, two nights earlier he was held overnight for
:36:17. > :36:18.drink-driving. The families of both boys were at the High Court last
:36:19. > :36:22.year when the judge ruled the Government was breaking the law by
:36:23. > :36:26.treating them as adults, as a result the Home Office did make some
:36:27. > :36:30.limited changes. Parents are now informed if a 17-year-old is
:36:31. > :36:34.detained by the police. But crucially, wider reform, including
:36:35. > :36:38.rules on when a cell should be used were put off until an internal
:36:39. > :36:44.review can be completed. That still hasn't happened. Today the families
:36:45. > :36:49.of all three teenagers sent a letter to Theresa May demanding she finish
:36:50. > :36:55.the work she started. They paid lip service to the court. They did
:36:56. > :36:59.absolutely the bare minimum, which to me is not right. You can't
:37:00. > :37:04.understand really why they wouldn't change t you are talking about our
:37:05. > :37:09.17-year-old children. You know, it is this sort of element of well when
:37:10. > :37:16.we're ready. Well it is already going to be too late for three
:37:17. > :37:20.children. The Home Office said this evening it will carefully consider
:37:21. > :37:25.the letter, and respond in due course. Three teenagers are dead,
:37:26. > :37:35.nothing can bring them back, but for the families involved this is still
:37:36. > :37:42.a fight very much worth having. He is white with red hair, crudely
:37:43. > :37:46.put, but today the singer Ed Sheeran was named the most important act in
:37:47. > :37:49.black and urban music but the power list calling itself the leading
:37:50. > :37:54.black music radio station, the list itself in which three of the top
:37:55. > :38:04.four acts are white has been criticised as the saddest list in
:38:05. > :38:11.human history by Wily. Has the English music scene gone backwards
:38:12. > :38:17.or changed in how it sees music and colour.
:38:18. > :38:27.Let's see where your favourites came in the One Extra Power List.
:38:28. > :38:51.Rudamental number one, banker's son Sam Smith at four, Tine Tempa at 3
:38:52. > :38:59.and then Ed Sheeran at three. He's already so big that he has his own
:39:00. > :39:05.body double. 23-year-old Sheeran from Yorkshire has written for One
:39:06. > :39:11.Direction and tailor Swift, and collaborating here with Pharrell
:39:12. > :39:18.here. But not everyone is satisfied that
:39:19. > :39:23.One Extra has come correct with its poll, take Wiley, he has had this to
:39:24. > :39:29.say on social media. I have never been influenced by a white artist to
:39:30. > :39:34.make black music, #never. We have been bumped, not taking anything
:39:35. > :39:37.away from Ed, he's sick, but black artists in England are getting
:39:38. > :39:43.bumped. It was very controversial, it is no surprise to me, but always
:39:44. > :39:48.the case in this country it is white artists who have dominated coming to
:39:49. > :39:51.black music. It seems to be a more palatable version and more
:39:52. > :40:03.acceptable version of the music in this country. Let's refresh our
:40:04. > :40:07.memory about One Extra's mission statement. The remit is to play the
:40:08. > :40:14.best in contemporary black music with a strong emphasis on live music
:40:15. > :40:18.and supporting new UK artists. I can't understand how a radio station
:40:19. > :40:22.promoting black music playing black music and urban music had a list
:40:23. > :40:25.that didn't resemble the people that largely create that music and
:40:26. > :40:28.culture. It was a state of confusion. That is not to say that
:40:29. > :40:31.anybody on the list didn't deserve to be there because of their talent.
:40:32. > :40:41.But we have to think about how we title the list and what we are
:40:42. > :40:45.actually trying to promote. 1 Xtra presenter Twin B helped to compile
:40:46. > :40:48.the station's powerlist. One thing we are not about is race, it is
:40:49. > :40:56.about supporting music that fits what we do. The DJs have a big part
:40:57. > :41:00.on what gets played on air. And Ed Sheeran has been championed across
:41:01. > :41:03.the station from the beginning of his career. Do you need to rebrand
:41:04. > :41:07.the statement and get away from the idea that it is a contemporary black
:41:08. > :41:11.station? More people to need to listen to it to understand what we
:41:12. > :41:19.do and understand the landscape of music as well. There is an award for
:41:20. > :41:26.you, it is 1 Xtra Powerlist, number one Ed Sheeran So Sheeran is the the
:41:27. > :41:32.first recipient of the bauble, perhaps they should call it the one
:41:33. > :41:39.sie. My guest has collaberated with Ed
:41:40. > :41:42.Sheeran and the chief music critic of the Guardian is with us. We are
:41:43. > :41:49.not questioning talent. But when you hear the grime artist Wily say --
:41:50. > :41:55.Wiley say this is the saddest music list in history, can you hear what
:41:56. > :41:59.he's getting to? I hear it but it is changed and interpreted wrongly. The
:42:00. > :42:03.list was a power list, they never said a blacklist or urban list. They
:42:04. > :42:08.said a power list. From my experience Ed was championed by 1
:42:09. > :42:12.Xtra first, he is influenced by black music. He himself wouldn't say
:42:13. > :42:17.he's influenced to it, but influenced by it. Which as well as
:42:18. > :42:23.every other music. Are you happy with him being the number one on the
:42:24. > :42:27.list of you know most important act in black and urban music, that
:42:28. > :42:32.sounds crazy doesn't it? It is beyond colour, this is art. And you
:42:33. > :42:39.can't segregate it like that. He's the one person that I know that can
:42:40. > :42:45.work with tailor Swift to -- Taylor Swift to Rick Ross, one is white and
:42:46. > :42:50.one black, and it is beyond that. There is something in that, that we
:42:51. > :42:55.have transcended the discussion of what colour music is and just gone
:42:56. > :43:00.with who it is? You would think we would have got past the idea that
:43:01. > :43:08.something is black and white music, it is an unfortunate list because 1
:43:09. > :43:12.Xtra brands itself as a black and urban music, and urban is a
:43:13. > :43:16.euphamism for black. Will it mean anything other? The question is
:43:17. > :43:22.where is music now, music is without colour really. The popular music we
:43:23. > :43:26.listen to is blended across hip hop, urban music, club music, dance
:43:27. > :43:37.music, chart music. Everyone is listening to all this stuff and
:43:38. > :43:46.blended together. Where does Ed Sheeran sit in that? He siting
:43:47. > :43:50.across it, his hip hop and rhyming is black, and it does sit across the
:43:51. > :43:54.genres. If you are a young black artist looking for a niche station
:43:55. > :43:59.to support young black artists to be told that red is the blue black is
:44:00. > :44:03.fairly disappointing. Is it about class, when you look at Disclosure
:44:04. > :44:10.and Sam Smith, the son of a banker, is it not about colour but about...
:44:11. > :44:13.? Not at all, it is about music, Disclosure, house music, created by
:44:14. > :44:18.black guy, that is nothing to do with whether it is a white guy
:44:19. > :44:23.creating it, as long as you pay homage to where it was created and
:44:24. > :44:27.appreciate the music, I'm happy with polka dot people with stripes doing
:44:28. > :44:30.it. What about the station, is it about time to stop having a station
:44:31. > :44:35.that thinks about having about time to stop having a station
:44:36. > :44:38.that supports it? 1 Xtra supports black artists, me and many others,
:44:39. > :44:42.and Ed Sheeran did come from that, black artists, me and many others,
:44:43. > :44:45.the collaborations and EP, and people he has worked with. It is
:44:46. > :44:51.only the further stuff that has taken him further along, acoustic.
:44:52. > :44:57.Black artists do struggle, they are underrepresented in popular music in
:44:58. > :45:00.the major white countries of Britain and America, they need some
:45:01. > :45:06.infrastructure and support. That is what 1 Xtra was invented for. It is
:45:07. > :45:16.stuck with the fact that it wants to play music that people are listening
:45:17. > :45:27.to. If you look at the US Ed Sheeran and Sam Smith are number one and two
:45:28. > :45:33.in the charts. Iggy Ezelia is a white rapper from Australia, and
:45:34. > :45:38.generic, it is the Elvis syndrome, if we can find a white artist to do
:45:39. > :45:45.black music. She mimics an accent? She puts on an American accent, and
:45:46. > :45:51.she puts on the style that she is a white rapper. That is a big
:45:52. > :45:54.impetuous in the music industry. I believe the point when I sit down
:45:55. > :46:00.and say yes there should be a lot more support for black artists in
:46:01. > :46:05.general. However, I want to kind of, that is a whole other subject we can
:46:06. > :46:08.talk about for days. We will invite you next time. Thank you for coming
:46:09. > :46:15.in. That's it for tonight. We leave you with the Nobel Prize winning
:46:16. > :46:18.author and freedom campaigner Nadine Gordimer whose death was announced.
:46:19. > :46:24.She talk to Hardtalk programme and asked if she ever wished she had
:46:25. > :46:31.become a writer away from the backdrop of apartheid, here is her
:46:32. > :46:38.answer. I think people concentrate on the political aspects. But in my
:46:39. > :46:43.many books personal relations, which you have got nothing to do with
:46:44. > :46:49.politics or are influenced them, but they are there. To me writing,
:46:50. > :46:55.either mine or anyone else's, it is a discovery of life, it is an
:46:56. > :47:00.attempt to discover what human life is about. And if you live in a
:47:01. > :47:05.country where there is a lot of conflict, of course that will have a
:47:06. > :47:10.bearing upon it. But if you are a real writer you can make the death
:47:11. > :47:40.of a canary striking. We will see thicker cloud and patchy
:47:41. > :47:47.rain clearing away from the south-east corner, most dry, good
:47:48. > :47:52.sunny spells. A few isolated showers in Northern Ireland and Scotland,
:47:53. > :47:53.barely a handful, most avoiding it staying dry, a bit more