:00:10. > :00:14.exclusively to the man who secured convictions for the murder of
:00:15. > :00:16.Stephen Lawrence, he says senior interference stopped him
:00:17. > :00:21.investigating child abuse allegations in the 1990s after he
:00:22. > :00:27.named the suspects. I was informed that was inappropriate and that in
:00:28. > :00:33.fact I would be moved from my post. That information included
:00:34. > :00:38.politicians' names? Yeah, correct. Former detective Clive Driscoll also
:00:39. > :00:43.shares fresh revelation about how the inquiry into Stephen Lawrence's
:00:44. > :00:48.murder looked from the inside. Stephen's friend Dwyane Brooks is
:00:49. > :00:53.here. The longest walk in politics, Michael Gove goes into Number Ten as
:00:54. > :01:00.Education Secretary and comes out as something rather more junior. Why?
:01:01. > :01:04.What happens when you send an artist to Helmand? I wish on reflection
:01:05. > :01:08.that I hadn't gone to Helmand, sending an artist to a warzone is a
:01:09. > :01:20.complex moral and ethical responsibility. Making work under
:01:21. > :01:25.those conditions is life-changing. Good evening. It took 18 years after
:01:26. > :01:30.his death before two of his killers were put behind bars. But tonight,
:01:31. > :01:34.the detective who built the case against Stephen Lawrence's killers
:01:35. > :01:39.has told Newsnight that inside the Met some people never wanted a
:01:40. > :01:43.successful prosecution. Speaking exclusively to Newsnight for the
:01:44. > :01:47.first time since he retired Clive Driscoll says he believes there were
:01:48. > :01:52.disruption tactics during his inquiry. He also claims that when he
:01:53. > :01:57.was investigating child abuse that took place in the 1980s he was moved
:01:58. > :02:02.from his post when he revealed suspect he is wanted to investigate
:02:03. > :02:16.including politicians. Here is his story.
:02:17. > :02:22.Getting to the truth few criminal cases have done more to test that
:02:23. > :02:27.promise than Stephen Lawrence's murder. When truth was be a secured
:02:28. > :02:36.by mistakes and fear, trust in the police fell away. Crimes they just
:02:37. > :02:41.could not or would not resolve. The detective who convicted Lawrence's
:02:42. > :02:49.killers is now ready to reveal how obstacles were put in the way of his
:02:50. > :02:56.investigations. Some people did not want a successful prosecution.
:02:57. > :03:02.Tonight I tells us how in that case and his inquiry into child abuse in
:03:03. > :03:08.1980s Lambeth, barriers, even politics, appeared. At the time I
:03:09. > :03:16.just felt that it was all too uncomfortable to a lot of people. In
:03:17. > :03:23.these most contentious of cases has truth been a victim too?
:03:24. > :03:28.Clive Driscoll worked for the Met for more than three decades until
:03:29. > :03:32.just a few weeks ago, his detective work led finally to the successful
:03:33. > :03:38.convictions of Stephen Lawrence's killers. What he describes as his
:03:39. > :03:42.for that politically-charged case was perhaps just as contentious. At
:03:43. > :03:46.that time the detective's involvement had a very different
:03:47. > :03:50.autooutcome. In 1998 he worked in child protection and was moved to
:03:51. > :03:54.investigate allegations of child abuse in children's homes in Lambeth
:03:55. > :04:00.in south London, alleged to have taken place in the 1980s. But his
:04:01. > :04:06.lines of inquiry quickly proved just too awkward. There was a mistrust on
:04:07. > :04:10.both sides. It appeared that certainly that people didn't trust
:04:11. > :04:14.the Metropolitan Police Service and I think the Metropolitan Police
:04:15. > :04:17.Service possibly didn't trust some of the people it was working with. A
:04:18. > :04:20.bit like young Stephen's investigation, I never felt there
:04:21. > :04:24.was wall of silence, but whenever people spoke to you and shared their
:04:25. > :04:29.fears and their story about what they had seen, it was almost on a
:04:30. > :04:33.proviso that they wouldn't make a statement and that they would be
:04:34. > :04:37.scared if you released who those people were that were talking for
:04:38. > :04:42.fear of reprisals. It was a very, very difficult climate for people to
:04:43. > :04:46.come forward in. But, very bravely, in my opinion, they did come
:04:47. > :04:52.forward, and I passed the names on that had been passed to me as
:04:53. > :04:57.potential suspects. When he revealed those names, including politicians
:04:58. > :05:02.at a case meeting he was taken off the investigation and subjected to a
:05:03. > :05:07.disciplinary. After discussing internally with the Metropolitan
:05:08. > :05:10.Police Service whether or not I should release certain information
:05:11. > :05:19.to Lambeth Council, which I hadn't done up until then, it was agreed by
:05:20. > :05:28.my senior management team that That is That is what -- that is what I
:05:29. > :05:33.should do. And I disclosed suspects' names and I was informed that was
:05:34. > :05:37.inappropriate and I would be moved from my post. That information
:05:38. > :05:40.included politicians' names as potential suspects? There was
:05:41. > :05:45.actually a mix. There were certainly some of the names of people that
:05:46. > :05:49.were locally working, some people that were, if you like, working
:05:50. > :05:55.nationally, but there was quite a mix really, because of, it appeared
:05:56. > :06:00.that it was connected to other boroughs and other movements around
:06:01. > :06:04.the country. To be clear, when you say a mix, you mean some local
:06:05. > :06:09.political figures? Yeah, correct. And MPs? That's correct, yeah. Do
:06:10. > :06:12.you fear that you were stopped from investigating those claims because
:06:13. > :06:19.you suspected more than one politician of being involved in
:06:20. > :06:25.child abuse? At the time I just felt that it was all too uncomfortable to
:06:26. > :06:28.a lot of people. After Clive Driscoll moved, investigations
:06:29. > :06:32.continued to look at more than 20 children's homes and are still on
:06:33. > :06:35.going. There have been several convictions, the Met is now looking
:06:36. > :06:39.into his claims concerning his removal from the investigation and
:06:40. > :06:46.have called him to a meeting in Scotland Yard this week. Stephen ran
:06:47. > :06:51.crossing the road and he ran and eventually died up on the right-hand
:06:52. > :06:54.side of the road there. That experience made Clive Driscoll more
:06:55. > :06:58.determined to pursue the truth, ultimately in the Lawrence case,
:06:59. > :07:02.equally controversial. The Met's initial flawed attempts to find his
:07:03. > :07:06.killers in the weeks that followed his death got nowhere. We are in a
:07:07. > :07:10.position today where we have an opportunity to learn and we have an
:07:11. > :07:15.opportunity to maybe put right some of the wrongs that have come out in
:07:16. > :07:20.recent times. There was no doubt that there were mistakes made in
:07:21. > :07:24.this decision. There was much debate about whether those mistakes were
:07:25. > :07:28.corruption mistakes or incompetent mistakes. Prosecutors then didn't
:07:29. > :07:33.find enough evidence to charge anyone the family's own private
:07:34. > :07:38.attempts to prosecute collapsed. Despite in 1999 a major inquiry,
:07:39. > :07:44.where suspects had to give evidence, and the first investigation was
:07:45. > :07:50.found to be flawed, in 2004 again the CPS ruled out another trial. In
:07:51. > :07:55.your view were most of the mistakes down to competence, or was there
:07:56. > :07:59.something more sinister? The difference betwe incompetence and
:08:00. > :08:01.corruption is a bit like a bad tackle in football. The person who
:08:02. > :08:06.knows is the person who made the tackle. I can be incompetent all day
:08:07. > :08:12.long if you want. What was your sense? My sense was I couldn't work
:08:13. > :08:17.certain things out. There was certain incidents and inquires that
:08:18. > :08:20.didn't appear to be progressed. There were certain parts of the
:08:21. > :08:27.investigation that really didn't make any sense to me at all. But I
:08:28. > :08:32.never investigated whether that was corruption or incompetence. In 2005
:08:33. > :08:37.the Government changed the law. It was now possible to try suspects for
:08:38. > :08:41.the same crime twice. Clive Driscoll was put in charge, after years of
:08:42. > :08:48.disappointment he first had to persuade the Lawrences and the key
:08:49. > :08:56.witness, Stephen's friend, Dwayne Brooks to trust and confide in him.
:08:57. > :09:00.It is your deeply-held belief that there were people at senior levels
:09:01. > :09:04.in the Met that were almost hoping this investigation would fail. You
:09:05. > :09:08.felt that pressure? There were certainly people in senior levels in
:09:09. > :09:12.the Met that weren't enthusiastic about the investigation, I certainly
:09:13. > :09:16.felt that. You know, as I have said before, it is a very serious
:09:17. > :09:21.allegation to make and I don't have evidence that I could present to any
:09:22. > :09:27.tribunal for that. It is certainly what I felt was that people in
:09:28. > :09:31.places I would have expected to have had the enthusiasm didn't. And you
:09:32. > :09:37.were so concerned about that you even made that complaint to senior
:09:38. > :09:43.officers? I actually did send an e-mail to senior officers explaining
:09:44. > :09:47.that I felt that it could be seen, if somebody came behind and actually
:09:48. > :09:52.looked at what was going on, I think they would probably see it as a
:09:53. > :10:00.disruption tactic. So yes, I did put that in writing. David Norris and
:10:01. > :10:04.Gary Dobson were convicted of murder. But still the handling of
:10:05. > :10:10.the original case continued to challenge the Met's reputation. This
:10:11. > :10:17.year an independent review found failures and reasonable grounds to
:10:18. > :10:21.suspect corruption. That inquiry asked the met for full disclosure,
:10:22. > :10:26.even then Clive Driscoll says there were discussions about handing
:10:27. > :10:35.everything over. Including a document on covert recording of key
:10:36. > :10:40.witness Dwyane Brooks. He have been told of incidents where senior
:10:41. > :10:44.officers were accused of holding back documents? That's correct. I
:10:45. > :10:47.would urge them to think about that and think about it and I would urge
:10:48. > :10:50.them to think about it was the Home Secretary and the Home Secretary and
:10:51. > :10:54.the mayor have every right to know what we are doing. You know that
:10:55. > :11:00.very senior officers discussed holding back some documents with
:11:01. > :11:04.lawyers? You could call it a culture, it could be just a mind set
:11:05. > :11:08.that you have to defend the Metropolitan Police. That is the
:11:09. > :11:11.only reason you have a lawyer there, to defend, well you don't have to
:11:12. > :11:14.defend the Metropolitan Police Service, if the Home Secretary or
:11:15. > :11:22.the mayor ask for something, well you give it to them. But one bad
:11:23. > :11:25.decision around disclosure undoes the remarkable work that police
:11:26. > :11:33.officers do up and down the country. And for me, just be open and honest,
:11:34. > :11:37.warts and all. The Met told us no relevant material was intentionally
:11:38. > :11:45.withheld, their policy was to be open and transparent, and they are
:11:46. > :11:48.still committed to continuing the Lawrence investigation. Doreen
:11:49. > :11:52.Lawrence still speaks to Clive Driscoll most days. She has little
:11:53. > :11:57.contact with the rest of the Met. He says the relationship is as bad as
:11:58. > :12:03.just after Stephen's death. Although he believes there could yet be more
:12:04. > :12:08.convictions. If you were the Lawrence family would you trust the
:12:09. > :12:12.Met? If I was the Lawrence family, no I probably wouldn't. How do you
:12:13. > :12:18.feel about that given the years of hard work, effort, struggle almost,
:12:19. > :12:22.first of all to win their trust, and then to finally prosecute the case?
:12:23. > :12:29.I actually feel desperately sorry for them. I think that they have
:12:30. > :12:33.lost their son, let's never forget, that they lost a much-loved son, it
:12:34. > :12:41.is almost like reliving the trauma of that. For Driscoll the priority
:12:42. > :12:46.for the police past and present must now be complete and total openness,
:12:47. > :12:54.after the Lawrence case tore trust away, suspicions is the only path to
:12:55. > :12:56.go. Before you said you weren't sure if it was incompetence or corruption
:12:57. > :13:03.in the early investigation. What does corruption look like? A
:13:04. > :13:07.question I have asked myself many times, what is corruption? Is it
:13:08. > :13:11.going behind a pub somewhere and getting an envelope of ?50 notes, or
:13:12. > :13:16.is corruption that you don't go down a certain path, you don't follow a
:13:17. > :13:20.certain inquiry and therefore you make someone very happy that you
:13:21. > :13:25.haven't followed that inquiry, therefore your next promotion is
:13:26. > :13:29.easier for you, your CV looks a bit more glamorous. By the time you
:13:30. > :13:33.finish your career and at the end of your pension you could have earned
:13:34. > :13:39.considerably more than what you would ever stuff in an envelope, so
:13:40. > :13:44.what is corruption? My concern is that the result for the grieving
:13:45. > :13:50.family or the victim or for justice is exactly the same, is that justice
:13:51. > :13:53.has been thwarted, and that can't happen at any cost, because the
:13:54. > :14:02.reality is that is the rule of law, it is part of our freedom. Dwyane
:14:03. > :14:04.Brooks who we saw in the film is with us tonight. Thank you very much
:14:05. > :14:07.for coming in. You would be forgiven, with everything that
:14:08. > :14:11.happened with the Met for not trusting them at all, what was it
:14:12. > :14:18.about Clive Driscoll when he took over the case that was different?
:14:19. > :14:24.Clive just comes across as a very honest person, down to earth, south
:14:25. > :14:29.London person. Bit of Cockney, every now and again in his language. For
:14:30. > :14:34.me he was just completely different from all the other officers that I
:14:35. > :14:45.had dealt with. I gave him a chance. He said to me, Duwayno I can crack
:14:46. > :14:52.this case! I thought let's give him a go. Did you believe him? No, I
:14:53. > :14:56.didn't believe him. But he made a tremendous amount of effort to
:14:57. > :15:04.convince me that it could be done. I had no other choice but to trust
:15:05. > :15:09.him. And Clive and his team came through. When he did come through
:15:10. > :15:17.and there were successful convictions in the end, what were
:15:18. > :15:21.your feelings and the Lawrence family's feelings about this? I felt
:15:22. > :15:25.that the Met should have come out and said well done Clive and Peter
:15:26. > :15:32.and members of the team, well done. You have done something that nobody
:15:33. > :15:36.else thought was possible, but it didn't happen. I'm still baffled as
:15:37. > :15:41.to why senior members of the Metropolitan Police haven't come out
:15:42. > :15:45.and said thank you to Clive and his team. Why do you think that might
:15:46. > :15:49.be? We have seen from the clip why it could be. Because there were
:15:50. > :15:56.senior officers in the Met who just did not want there to be a
:15:57. > :16:01.conviction in this case. You felt that too? Along the way, yes, up
:16:02. > :16:10.until Clive got involved. Once life was involved the communication we
:16:11. > :16:13.had was constant he kept kept me up-to-date about the issues and what
:16:14. > :16:16.had was constant he kept kept me he needed to do. For me it was just
:16:17. > :16:19.a matter of time. As we saw we had two convictions. The Met would say
:16:20. > :16:22.they were always committed to the investigation, they were always
:16:23. > :16:29.committed to trying to get convictions, but now Clive has
:16:30. > :16:32.retired, just a matter of weeks ago, do you believe there is still a
:16:33. > :16:36.prospect of there being more convictions in the case? Without
:16:37. > :16:42.Clive leading a team, no. I don't think it is possible. All the work
:16:43. > :16:47.that Clive and his team have done over the past seven, eight years, it
:16:48. > :16:52.will all be lost. It is all going to be lost? I don't think the officers
:16:53. > :16:55.who have taken over now are in the same league as Clive and his
:16:56. > :16:58.previous team, I don't think they have got the leadership or
:16:59. > :17:00.communication skills. On communication, do you talk to them?
:17:01. > :17:08.Would you talk to them? I communication, do you talk to them?
:17:09. > :17:15.spoken to any of the new team at the moment. When I speak
:17:16. > :17:22.spoken to any of the new team at the see everybody who was involved
:17:23. > :17:27.convicted. Would I be able to trustn them, I don't know. Why not? Because
:17:28. > :17:36.the way Clive would have been treated, is not how I would expect
:17:37. > :17:42.the Metropolitan Police to trust a person who has got a conviction when
:17:43. > :17:46.anybody else could. Clive is leaving for retirement and in perfectly
:17:47. > :17:50.reasonable conditions and nothing improper has gone in any way. Do you
:17:51. > :17:54.feel you would ever have been able to trust the force again, without
:17:55. > :17:57.him you have said you wouldn't? In relation to the Lawrence case it
:17:58. > :18:00.would be difficult for me to trust officers coming in now, because of
:18:01. > :18:03.the way Clive has been treated. But if we were talking about the
:18:04. > :18:08.Metropolitan Police on the whole, well of course I trust them. We have
:18:09. > :18:12.thousands and thousands of rank and file officers that do a great job
:18:13. > :18:16.day in and day out and they protect us all in this fabulous city. In the
:18:17. > :18:19.Lawrence case it is a bit different from generally the Metropolitan
:18:20. > :18:23.Police who I do support, who I do trust. What do you feel about
:18:24. > :18:28.documents, including those relating to you being bugged during those
:18:29. > :18:33.early days of the inquiry. How do you feel about those being withheld,
:18:34. > :18:36.the Met says absolutely not intentionally, what do you feel
:18:37. > :18:42.about that? Saddened, but I'm not surprised. But it is astonishing
:18:43. > :18:48.that the Home Secretary can order an inquiry, order the Met to disclose
:18:49. > :18:51.all relevant information and the Met take legal advice and do the
:18:52. > :18:54.opposite. So we have heard in that piece that the Met say they are
:18:55. > :19:00.open, they want to be transparent, fine, let's be transparent. Publish
:19:01. > :19:05.the legal advice tomorrow. Let's see how transparent the Met really are.
:19:06. > :19:08.The Met says it is still committed to this investigation, they have
:19:09. > :19:13.still got resources on it, they have got that new team they talked about,
:19:14. > :19:18.do you believe they are committed to it? You are not talking to them yet?
:19:19. > :19:23.I haven't seen any evidence of that. So at the moment in time I don't
:19:24. > :19:26.believe so. The only evidence I have seen around this investigation is
:19:27. > :19:31.the way they have treated Clive Driscoll and his team, a team that
:19:32. > :19:37.secured a conviction that we all believed wasn't possible. Briefly,
:19:38. > :19:43.how often, how much do you still think about what happened all those
:19:44. > :19:47.years ago? It will stay with me forever. It was a night that I
:19:48. > :19:51.wished didn't happen. If I had the chance to turn back time of course,
:19:52. > :19:55.I would turn back time and make different decisions on that night,
:19:56. > :20:00.but it has happened, we have to move on, we have to be successful. To
:20:01. > :20:04.show that even though you do have bad times in your life you can move
:20:05. > :20:10.on and be successful, so I have been trying to do that. But also the
:20:11. > :20:14.message needs to go out to other victims of crime that even though
:20:15. > :20:19.things may be hard, at the end of the day justice is still possible.
:20:20. > :20:23.Thank you very much for coming in and talking to us tonight.
:20:24. > :20:27.Reshuffles are the equivalent of tacking up a couple of new pictures
:20:28. > :20:31.on the walls of the Cabinet Room. Others moving a couple of shares an.
:20:32. > :20:34.This time well there has been proper heavy lifting. David Cameron has
:20:35. > :20:40.striped two of his biggest and brightest names of the full comfort
:20:41. > :20:48.of a full season cabinet, he's a modest number of women into the
:20:49. > :20:54.room, sent a relative unknown into Europe to represent our interests,
:20:55. > :20:57.and finally put one of his most devisive colleagues in charge of,
:20:58. > :21:02.wait for it, team work. You may wonder what the Government will do
:21:03. > :21:06.differently, very much? It took eight hours to carry out, eight
:21:07. > :21:11.hours you don't have, so here is Newsnight's eight things you need to
:21:12. > :21:15.know about the reshuffle. # Every day I'm shuffling
:21:16. > :21:19.So first thing this morning one of those oldies explained David
:21:20. > :21:23.Cameron's strategy. He doesn't have many reshuffles which is a very good
:21:24. > :21:27.thing. And then he wants a reshuffle which gives a Government which looks
:21:28. > :21:33.like the sort of Government he wants in the next parliament. Who does
:21:34. > :21:37.that mean in practice. Chances are if you are male, pale and a
:21:38. > :21:40.middle-aged Tory minister then yesterday afternoon you were asked
:21:41. > :21:43.to David Cameron's private study in parliament over there and asked if
:21:44. > :21:47.you want to retire. If you didn't want to retire you would have been
:21:48. > :21:50.retired in time for Newsnight last night when we got a slew of
:21:51. > :21:53.resignations from the Government. This morning Newsnight was up with
:21:54. > :21:58.the lark to find out who the lucky ones are, including the chap who has
:21:59. > :22:01.walked behind me, the new Welsh Secretary. The guys who walk through
:22:02. > :22:09.the door today are who the Tory Party think are the face of modern
:22:10. > :22:16.Britain. Average outgoing age 48, in coming 32. He wasn't lucky, the
:22:17. > :22:20.biggest jobs went to men, Philip Hammond, Foreign Secretary. The
:22:21. > :22:25.number of women attending cabinet today nearly doubled from five to
:22:26. > :22:28.eight, new roles for women in education and environment. But we
:22:29. > :22:32.have been told it would rain women in this reshuffle and in the end it
:22:33. > :22:35.was more of a light shower. No female Defence Secretary for
:22:36. > :22:40.instance, Esther McVey had been tipped for a full blown cabinet
:22:41. > :22:46.post, in the end she said stayed in her current job and got added
:22:47. > :22:50.permission to attend cabinet. Stow stow Tina Stowell is the leader of
:22:51. > :22:53.the Lords, but not a full blown cabinet minister, strange. David
:22:54. > :22:57.Cameron once criticised people, to put it mildly, for tweeting too
:22:58. > :23:02.much, but today every appointment came on Twitter. One tweet shocked
:23:03. > :23:05.everyone. The news that all of us here are digesting is that Michael
:23:06. > :23:09.Gove is being moved from his position as Education Secretary to
:23:10. > :23:14.become Chief Whip, which is something that nobody expected.
:23:15. > :23:19.After 30 years of friendship the Prime Minister removed Michael Gove
:23:20. > :23:25.from his job and vocation. That's fantastic, this is the very hungry
:23:26. > :23:29.catterpillar. Cameron's pollsters decided he was too unpopular with
:23:30. > :23:34.teachers, and the zeal that landed the Cameron Government its radical
:23:35. > :23:37.chick was now a problem. As whip's central to the next campaign, but
:23:38. > :23:43.colleagues told Newsnight he feels very bruised. Spin was also a winner
:23:44. > :23:48.today, Esther McVey, William Hague, Michael Gove and Grant Shapps, who
:23:49. > :23:51.stays as chairman, these people are all in jobs not purely frontline
:23:52. > :23:55.politics, but communicating the Tory vision. I'm flattered to be asked by
:23:56. > :24:00.the Prime Minister to be at the heart of his team, deciding on the
:24:01. > :24:03.people, the ideas and the policies shaping not just the next nine
:24:04. > :24:05.months but we hope the next Conservative Government. The Prime
:24:06. > :24:09.Minister has asked me to make sure we have the team in place and the
:24:10. > :24:13.ideas in place to ensure that the long-term economic plan, which is
:24:14. > :24:16.now at last generating economic growth can benefit everyone in the
:24:17. > :24:21.country. This reshuffle didn't really have a bias, the cabinet did
:24:22. > :24:25.lose big right-wing hitters, but the wider Government saw many on the
:24:26. > :24:31.right promoted. Instead the Tories seem to be pressing pause on all of
:24:32. > :24:36.policy. Today we learned Lord Hill is the Prime Minister's choice to be
:24:37. > :24:40.our EU Commissioner. Nigel Farage was quick to ask Lord who? But there
:24:41. > :24:46.was substantial movement today on Europe. We have a more euro-sceptic
:24:47. > :24:50.cabinet on that sending a signal both to voters here at home but also
:24:51. > :24:55.to Europe that Cameron is serious now, this is getting real it is also
:24:56. > :24:59.laying the ground work for the big renegotiation that is meant to take
:25:00. > :25:07.place ahead of that potential 2017 referendum. The Chancellor's
:25:08. > :25:10.tentacles tightened their grip on Government. George Osborne's former
:25:11. > :25:15.aide Clare Perry, pretending to be a train, she went to transport, one of
:25:16. > :25:18.many promoted, all potentially readying George Osborne for a
:25:19. > :25:22.leadership bit in 2018. That is a long time away. Tonight David
:25:23. > :25:26.Cameron's last reshuffle before the 2015 election is done, and the great
:25:27. > :25:32.offices of Whitehall have become glorified election campaign
:25:33. > :25:36.headquarters. Our political editor is with us now, Allegra what does
:25:37. > :25:39.this all mean the Government will actually do differently in the next
:25:40. > :25:42.ten months? I don't think they are going to do very much in the next
:25:43. > :25:46.ten months. They will look different, so we have this massive
:25:47. > :25:50.change of people coming on programmes like our's. So they will
:25:51. > :25:53.look given. Different. There will be a lot of manifesto pledge, we will
:25:54. > :25:57.get what they would like to do the other side of a general election. In
:25:58. > :26:02.terms of what they will actually do, it won't be very much. Michael Gove
:26:03. > :26:06.has been embarrassingly nothing at all, for no reason the change. What
:26:07. > :26:10.really happened there? Michael Gove is still in a team with colleagues,
:26:11. > :26:15.he's still David Cameron's friend of 30 years and George Osborne's friend
:26:16. > :26:19.of a long time, but what actually happened we believe he was happy to
:26:20. > :26:24.go to it because he wanted to pull together, but the idea that this
:26:25. > :26:28.radical idealogue, whatever you want to call him, was happy to be moved,
:26:29. > :26:31.is far fetched, I know from colleagues he feels bruised this
:26:32. > :26:34.evening. What we will be look to go see in the next couple of days is
:26:35. > :26:40.quite whether he manages to keep a lid on it. It would be a first in
:26:41. > :26:44.politics, somebody happy to be demoted. Descriptions of Michael
:26:45. > :26:48.Gove range very far and wide, as Education Secretary he will be
:26:49. > :26:52.thanked by generations to come for his radical reforms. A demented
:26:53. > :26:57.Dalek trying to change the teaching profession, or a charming bully who
:26:58. > :27:01.lost out for overstepping the mark too many times. Whatever you think,
:27:02. > :27:13.and he's still Chief Whip, he has never committed the ultimate faux
:27:14. > :27:16.pas, being dull! Will his reforms really last?
:27:17. > :27:19.The teaching unions don't always reflect the views of their members,
:27:20. > :27:25.but when it came to Michael Gove, the former Education Secretary, they
:27:26. > :27:29.did. In general teachers wanted rid of him, and today they got their
:27:30. > :27:38.wish. He's not even a Secretary of State any more. A lot of teachers
:27:39. > :27:45.have been celebrating today. So this reshuffle will be seen as wane for
:27:46. > :27:54.the educationalists who oppose Mr Gove's reform, often bbed "the
:27:55. > :27:58.blob". Should they be celebrating? Let's see what he Z his first move
:27:59. > :28:02.was the introduction of converter academies, more than half of
:28:03. > :28:05.secondary schools took part in the programme. It meant for those
:28:06. > :28:08.schools instead of being funded by and overseen by local authorities,
:28:09. > :28:11.they were instead directly answerable to the Department for
:28:12. > :28:16.Education. They also got a lot more freedom over their teachers' pay and
:28:17. > :28:20.the curriculum, that gave them the ability to depart from national
:28:21. > :28:24.norms when it came to hiring and what they chose to teach.
:28:25. > :28:29.The second of his big policies was the introduction of so called free
:28:30. > :28:34.school, he introduced a presumption that new schools should be opened by
:28:35. > :28:37.private groups, rather than by local authorities. The idea was that
:28:38. > :28:42.rather than having the same old people running schools, you will get
:28:43. > :28:49.dynamism and choice and competition by allowing new providers into the
:28:50. > :28:54.schools' market place. Michael Gove also tried to reform what was being
:28:55. > :28:58.taught inside schools, he tweaked the cirriculum to put more emphasis
:28:59. > :29:03.on knowledge and less on skills. He changed the structure of exams so
:29:04. > :29:08.there was less course work and more so called linear exams, that is old
:29:09. > :29:11.fashioned exams at the end of the course. Many of the ideas are long
:29:12. > :29:15.in the tooth. For the last four years in education it has been a
:29:16. > :29:21.period of enormous change, many of the changes are changes that are
:29:22. > :29:25.really accelrate rating change -- accelerating change and processes
:29:26. > :29:29.already in place, especially new types of schools, academies,
:29:30. > :29:34.converters and free schools, moving power to schools. Not only did Mr
:29:35. > :29:37.Gove's opponents fail to stop the reform which is have weakened local
:29:38. > :29:42.authorities and union, but they have been losing for decades. One novelty
:29:43. > :29:47.is in his hurry Mr Gove accrued a lot of power to the Department for
:29:48. > :29:52.Education. Perhaps the contradictions, public and private,
:29:53. > :29:55.have become overwhelming. Public in terms of preaching that there should
:29:56. > :30:00.be complete autonomy for schools, and then imposing from the
:30:01. > :30:04.department and other agencies absolute direction from the centre
:30:05. > :30:10.personally, because when you talk to him in private he's both charming
:30:11. > :30:16.and prepared to listen. But in public he appears beligerant and
:30:17. > :30:21.unprepared to listen. It seems that the oversight of schools will change
:30:22. > :30:30.in the coming years, but there is no support for less school autonomy,
:30:31. > :30:34.and high-content curriculums are current teaching fashion. A recent
:30:35. > :30:37.poll found he was the Tory politician most disliked by members
:30:38. > :30:41.of the public. Perhaps his approach to people who disagree with him is
:30:42. > :30:46.something to do with it. What I can tell you is that outstanding
:30:47. > :30:51.teachers and outstanding head teachers are I find overwhelmily in
:30:52. > :30:56.favour of what we are doing. It is the bad ones that don't get it? Yes.
:30:57. > :31:02.Maybe he needs to learn that even if you are winning against the blob,
:31:03. > :31:06.you didn't do everything alone. We did invite the Government's new
:31:07. > :31:12.Chief Whip and the man David Cameron says has an enhanced role doing
:31:13. > :31:16.broadcast interviews, to come on Newsnight again, for a broadcast
:31:17. > :31:20.interview tonight, he was unavailable, nor was any other
:31:21. > :31:25.Conservative cabinet minister able to come on. Rather than leave the
:31:26. > :31:30.chair empty, fortunately Labour's Shadow educational secretary is
:31:31. > :31:34.here. Were you shocked that your opposite number was out? I got the
:31:35. > :31:39.sense that the Education Secretary had rather run out of road in recent
:31:40. > :31:41.months. What we saw was David Cameron realising what pupils and
:31:42. > :31:45.parents and teachers have realised is that Government education policy
:31:46. > :31:50.is damaging school standard. So whether it was unqualified teachers,
:31:51. > :31:55.whether it was taking money from the schools' budget for free schools.
:31:56. > :31:59.Whether it was downgrading technical and vocational skills, all of this
:32:00. > :32:02.was affecting the Government popularity and finally the Prime
:32:03. > :32:08.Minister acted. It was really his very public spat with Theresa May
:32:09. > :32:13.and politicking around Take That got rid of him? That played a part, but
:32:14. > :32:16.also what we need to realise tonight and my message tonight is the
:32:17. > :32:22.architect might have gone but the ideology remains n terms of an
:32:23. > :32:26.atomised schools system, and focus on unqualified teachers the
:32:27. > :32:29.classroom. All of these things remain Government policy even with
:32:30. > :32:35.Michael Gove moving on. Most of them in their origin were actually new
:32:36. > :32:39.Labour ideas? The academy programme was a new Labour programme, school
:32:40. > :32:43.autonomy was a new Labour programme. When Michael Gove built on those
:32:44. > :32:48.issues in the early years was fine. We are only in year four? You saw in
:32:49. > :32:52.the last interview, maybe it is what happens to a Secretary of State, but
:32:53. > :32:57.he became more ideolgical and antagonistic and more devisive, we
:32:58. > :33:00.didn't take the teaching profession with him. If you want real
:33:01. > :33:05.sustainable change over time, the people delivering that in the
:33:06. > :33:09.classroom are the teachers f you antagonise them so much you won't be
:33:10. > :33:14.able to make the changes you want, whether knowledge-rich curriculum or
:33:15. > :33:16.linear exams or the other elements. For teachers and parents watching up
:33:17. > :33:20.and down the country, it is really about the changes he wanted to make,
:33:21. > :33:26.not whether or not he wound people up with how he made them. You said
:33:27. > :33:31.yourself in certain situations his reforms build rather successfully on
:33:32. > :33:36.Labour Party policy? I think there is now a growing consensus about the
:33:37. > :33:39.need for autonomous schools, strong leadership. Where we differ from the
:33:40. > :33:44.Government is we think schools should be co-operating, challenging
:33:45. > :33:47.and partnering each other. We have a Government that likes to think of
:33:48. > :33:50.schools in isolation. We saw the results of that law in Birmingham FA
:33:51. > :33:55.want to think about a symbol of results of that law in Birmingham FA
:33:56. > :34:01.atomised, fragmented education system, you have to look at
:34:02. > :34:04.atomised, fragmented education events in Birmingham. The big
:34:05. > :34:06.principles and the reasons why some people might think about choosing
:34:07. > :34:09.Labour rather than voting Conservative, is because they didn't
:34:10. > :34:15.like the sound of what Michael Gove was doing. In fact, you would not
:34:16. > :34:19.get rid of existing free schools, you support performance-related pay
:34:20. > :34:25.that is one of the things so contentious with the unions. On the
:34:26. > :34:31.big principles you agree? The biggest difference between us is we
:34:32. > :34:35.know that the most important element in a young person's education is the
:34:36. > :34:38.quality of teaching. In this Government we have focus on
:34:39. > :34:42.relentless structural reform, as if changing the name of a school to a
:34:43. > :34:46.free school or academy does the job, it doesn't. The most important
:34:47. > :34:49.element is improving the teaching and leadership in the school. That
:34:50. > :34:52.is a big policy difference. This Government has let more and more
:34:53. > :34:57.unqualified teachers into our classrooms. It has downgraded the
:34:58. > :35:01.teaching profession and the best education systems around the world
:35:02. > :35:05.has have qualified masters level teachers. You know the vast majority
:35:06. > :35:09.of teachers in classm radios right now, in new schools as a product of
:35:10. > :35:12.Michael Gove's reforms are still qualified teachers, and the
:35:13. > :35:16.important point for our viewers and parents around the country tonight,
:35:17. > :35:20.would you not get rid of existing free schools and you support
:35:21. > :35:23.performance-related pay, the things that Michael Gove had such trouble
:35:24. > :35:27.convincing the teaching profession of, and you wouldn't get rid of
:35:28. > :35:31.either of those things? We are not interested in simply change for
:35:32. > :35:37.change's sake. We see a lot of grandstanding and party politicking.
:35:38. > :35:42.We will keep the reforms that are sensible, we won't throw things up
:35:43. > :35:47.in terms of curriculum. We will focus crucially on the forgotten 50%
:35:48. > :35:50.of young people who want to pursue technical and vocational pathways.
:35:51. > :35:53.We will focus on teacher quality and rebuild local oversight and
:35:54. > :35:57.accountability. Thank you very much for coming in. To discuss the events
:35:58. > :36:03.of the day, not just Michael Gove's departure is my guest, a columnist
:36:04. > :36:08.for the Times and the Guardian are both here. Thank you for coming in.
:36:09. > :36:11.You made it your stock and trade to know what is really going on in the
:36:12. > :36:15.Conservative minds. What really happened with Michael Gove, was he
:36:16. > :36:19.shoved out uncermoniously, he's going around saying he's pleased
:36:20. > :36:23.with his new job, are we to believe him? He didn't want to go and leave
:36:24. > :36:27.this position. But the Conservative Party has admired what Michael Gove
:36:28. > :36:32.has tried to do. He has been perhaps one of the great education reformers
:36:33. > :36:37.of the in the post-war years. He has tried to tackle the fact that the
:36:38. > :36:40.British taxpayer puts more and more money into education and hasn't been
:36:41. > :36:45.keeping one the rest of the world. His reforms matter. Sometimes the
:36:46. > :36:49.person building the house or invents the product is not the best person
:36:50. > :36:52.to sell that product. And Linton Crosby, the Australian adviser to
:36:53. > :36:55.the Prime Minister saw the opinion polls and this was not a popular
:36:56. > :36:59.Education Secretary. If you are going to win an election you can't
:37:00. > :37:05.have an Education Secretary that seems to be antagonising, not just
:37:06. > :37:12.teachers but parents as well. The mums in particular, the women who
:37:13. > :37:17.haven't always supported the Conservative Party. And Nicky Morgan
:37:18. > :37:21.is the David Cameron choice not to unwind the Michael Gove reforms but
:37:22. > :37:26.to sell them. Does Nicky Morgan believe in the reform, some unkindly
:37:27. > :37:29.have suggested she doesn't believe in very much, smart, efficient and
:37:30. > :37:34.pragmatic, can you tell us what she believes in? I think she's someone
:37:35. > :37:38.who on the gay marriage issue she took a different position, she
:37:39. > :37:41.opposed it and stood up to David Cameron, she wasn't just someone who
:37:42. > :37:46.agrees with what the Prime Minister wants. She as an independent
:37:47. > :37:53.thinker, but crucially will Gove's reforms survive? Look at the junior
:37:54. > :37:56.ministers, Nick Gibb and others they are people who believe in reforms,
:37:57. > :38:06.there is no great retreat. Polly what do you make of it? Jo I think
:38:07. > :38:09.it is worth pausing for a moment for observers and commentators to think
:38:10. > :38:13.how hellish political life is. You get to the top of the tree and get
:38:14. > :38:16.stuck into something you care about passionately and suddenly you are
:38:17. > :38:21.yanked out and gone forever. It happened to Andrew Lansley. It is a
:38:22. > :38:26.better business. Is this you showing sympathy for Michael Gove? Yes, I
:38:27. > :38:30.feel sympathy for politicians, I think sometimes as comment it aors
:38:31. > :38:36.-- commentators, we say what we think about them, they come and go.
:38:37. > :38:41.It is a rough, rough trade, in that sense I feel sorry for him. He said
:38:42. > :38:45.it was a great wrench. On the other hand I think, as Tim was suggesting
:38:46. > :38:51.i think he really had to go. Here is man who will pick a fight with
:38:52. > :38:57.himself if you put him in an empty room. Partly because he was a
:38:58. > :39:04.commentator at one time. Part of his job is to debate. He sees everything
:39:05. > :39:08.in ideolgical terms, whatever the debate he is on one side and you are
:39:09. > :39:12.on the other. He doesn't bring anyone along with him. What else
:39:13. > :39:15.does the reshuffle bring, do you think this will fundamentally
:39:16. > :39:19.reshape what the Government looks like and what the Conservative looks
:39:20. > :39:22.like in the public mind or not really? Not radically, I think there
:39:23. > :39:25.is two things that matter, the Conservative Party has moved in a
:39:26. > :39:29.euro-sceptic direction, we have a Foreign Secretary who is prepared to
:39:30. > :39:32.countenance leaving the European Union. That is new. This is another
:39:33. > :39:37.ratchet to the Conservative Party moving in that way. The euro-sceptic
:39:38. > :39:42.move is huge, if you think who we have lost, we have lost the
:39:43. > :39:47.moderate, sensible wise heads, we have lost Keneth Clarke, Dominic
:39:48. > :39:50.Grieve, Damien Green, the people who understand why Europe works and why
:39:51. > :39:55.it matters to us. Instead we have a lot of much more abrasive, young
:39:56. > :39:59.people who have been chosen by Conservative Parties who are deeply
:40:00. > :40:05.euro-sceptic. This is a real shift towards Euro-scepticism. It may be
:40:06. > :40:08.euro-sceptic for the Guardian but not the population. The Conservative
:40:09. > :40:12.Party is in touch more with the public than it has ever been. I
:40:13. > :40:15.don't think so, because when people are asked what they care about
:40:16. > :40:20.Europe is right down the list? But they care about immigration and
:40:21. > :40:25.issues that can only be solved. David Cameron was right saying we
:40:26. > :40:29.mustn't bang on about it, we are in danger of having both sides banging
:40:30. > :40:34.on. You said there was one other thing we should take note of?
:40:35. > :40:39.Everyone is looking at the coming together from women in the party,
:40:40. > :40:43.but it is Tories from a more modest background, it is the son of a
:40:44. > :40:46.milkman, or the son of a single mother. That is the big problem, not
:40:47. > :40:54.the gender problem, it is the sense that the Tories are the party of the
:40:55. > :40:58.rich. It is only two more women and 2011 figures, it looks pretty much
:40:59. > :41:07.the same, I doubt if it will make a huge amount of presentation or
:41:08. > :41:12.difference. Poetry or paintings, the work of war artists can bring light
:41:13. > :41:17.to the gloryies and horrors of war. When the grand exhibition halls of
:41:18. > :41:21.the imperial war museum open in a couple of days after a major
:41:22. > :41:32.renovation, with the stories of the first and Second World Wars, we will
:41:33. > :41:35.be joined by a new tail, the British artist documenting the life of the
:41:36. > :41:40.modern military. As an artist I work at the
:41:41. > :41:45.intersection of art and documentary, engaging with working communities
:41:46. > :41:48.facing difficult circumstances. I'm interested in exploring the social
:41:49. > :41:53.function of art and asking one central question. How can films and
:41:54. > :42:06.photographs impact upon the real world? In 2010 I was awarded a
:42:07. > :42:12.two-month commission to work as a war artist in Helmand, Afghanistan.
:42:13. > :42:17.It was commissioned by imperial war museum, and First Sight an arts
:42:18. > :42:21.organisation. I was hosted by 16 air afault brigade, the largest in the
:42:22. > :42:27.British Army, otherwise known as the Paras. It had never really occurred
:42:28. > :42:30.to me to take work in the warzone before. It was inexperience that
:42:31. > :42:38.changed my life in a very profound way. When the invitation to go to
:42:39. > :42:42.Afghanistan came, it suddenly seemed relevant to my life and my
:42:43. > :42:47.grandfather's life, I became very curious. My grandfather was captain
:42:48. > :42:55.of a ship during World War II. He came back from four years at sea
:42:56. > :43:00.suffering from what I now recognise as PTSD. After the war he took a lot
:43:01. > :43:05.of amateur photographs, his perspective on life seemed to be
:43:06. > :43:09.about lens. When I decided to make the commission, I wanted to move
:43:10. > :43:14.away from the conventions of ne coverage that made us immune to feel
:43:15. > :43:18.anything new about what is happening in Afghanistan.
:43:19. > :43:25.In preparation to go to Helmand I attended a three-day course, a death
:43:26. > :43:29.by power point, which retrospectively left me cold
:43:30. > :43:34.thinking about living in a warzone. It became apparent, unlike previous
:43:35. > :43:37.projects that allowed me an extraordinary collaboration with
:43:38. > :43:44.local communities, it would not be possible in Helmand. The work talks
:43:45. > :43:48.about this unspanable gulf. My desire to make work that gave the
:43:49. > :43:54.locals a voice was frustrated on every level. This piece, Bolan
:43:55. > :43:59.Market was filmed in an area previously part of Taliban-occupied
:44:00. > :44:03.territory. It began to flourish under ISIS force, but there is a
:44:04. > :44:07.complex relationship between the local population and the British
:44:08. > :44:10.soldiers. I asked if I could get out of the tank and film. We were told
:44:11. > :44:13.by the command I would be killed orchid napped within 20 minutes.
:44:14. > :44:20.Whilst some of the locals are apparently untroubled by our
:44:21. > :44:24.prosession, others are obviously feeling disturbed or angered by the
:44:25. > :44:28.presence of the camera or tank. Which for some might be seeing a
:44:29. > :44:33.spaceship land in Corby. I left the film mute in an attempt to
:44:34. > :44:56.communicate the feel Iing had about being trapped in silent nightmare.
:44:57. > :45:04.Before I left for Afghanistan I made backdrops for my work, based upon
:45:05. > :45:08.images from previous conflicts. I chose paintings and photographs that
:45:09. > :45:12.have a strong resonance or emotional charge, and make a blunt telescopic
:45:13. > :45:16.connection between the past and what is happening today. How many times
:45:17. > :45:23.have the Brits gone to war in Afghanistan, and has it ever worked
:45:24. > :45:27.out well, for anyone In Helmand the patrols would last two or three
:45:28. > :45:33.hours and often frightening, I was shot at. On one occasion there was a
:45:34. > :45:39.massive explosion after two soldiers stepped on an improvised explosive
:45:40. > :45:43.device, one lost his legs and the other blinded. During my time in
:45:44. > :45:49.Helmand the soldiers were closing limbs every day, but these injuries
:45:50. > :45:53.go largely unreported. The experience was profoundly affecting.
:45:54. > :45:57.At first when I returned to the UK I felt invincible, everything to do
:45:58. > :46:02.with life here seemed banal and meaningless, e-mails, supermarkets,
:46:03. > :46:08.paying bills. I felt I no longer had any re connection to who I was
:46:09. > :46:13.before I went to hell moneyed, and I have had -- Helmand, and I have had
:46:14. > :46:18.to remain embedded and carry the work alone until the public dissell
:46:19. > :46:25.nation three years later. I think validation of one's work, be it as
:46:26. > :46:30.an artist or photo correspondent is healthy for readjustment to healthy
:46:31. > :46:36.civilian life. I wish on reflection I hadn't gone to Helmand, sending an
:46:37. > :46:39.artist is a compolitician and moral responsibility. Making people work
:46:40. > :46:43.under those conditions is life-changing. It is removed from
:46:44. > :46:49.the pristine experience of viewing art in a museum, or the academic
:46:50. > :46:52.experience of curating an exhibition. Aside from the military,
:46:53. > :46:59.so few of us know what it really means to be involved in a tour of
:47:00. > :47:06.duty. I was niave in my imagining of it and so were those who sent me.
:47:07. > :47:10.That's it for tonight, we leave you with the German World Cup team as
:47:11. > :47:14.they brought that trophy back to Berlin today to an incredible
:47:15. > :47:22.reception. They are probably still singing now at the Brandenburg
:47:23. > :47:27.Gates, they were found chant ago few English fans favourites, what is the
:47:28. > :47:37.opposite of schadenfreude?! Good night.
:47:38. > :47:44.# It's coming home, it's coming home # It's coming,
:47:45. > :47:49.# Football's coming home # It's coming home
:47:50. > :47:56.# Football's coming home # It's coming home
:47:57. > :48:03.# Football's coming home # It's coming home, it's coming home
:48:04. > :48:08.# It's coming football's coming home.
:48:09. > :48:14.# Three lions on a shirt # Jewels
:48:15. > :48:26.#30 years of hurt Early risers in Northern Ireland
:48:27. > :48:27.some