:00:00. > :00:13.It is still not certain why the Malaysian Boeing 777 crashed in
:00:14. > :00:17.eastern Ukraine, killing the it 95 295 people from at least nine
:00:18. > :00:22.countries. We piece together what happened tonight, and as Ukraine
:00:23. > :00:26.accuse terrorists military seperatist we assess who had the
:00:27. > :00:31.capability to bring down the airliner and what the military
:00:32. > :00:35.implications might be. As the crash prompts talks over a truce whilst
:00:36. > :00:40.the incident is investigated, we report on how ever more powerful
:00:41. > :00:45.weaponry is being deployed in the conflict. Israel has launched a
:00:46. > :00:51.ground offensive against Gaza just after a ceasefire was implemented.
:00:52. > :00:55.We will talk to a former Palestinian official inside Gaza. We join
:00:56. > :00:59.President Clinton on a trip to India as he speaks exclusively to
:01:00. > :01:04.Newsnight about the idea of a second President Clinton in the family. I
:01:05. > :01:09.can tell you this all these suggestions that you know she feels
:01:10. > :01:13.entitled to it and all that, that is just not true. That is not true, we
:01:14. > :01:31.have been in too many races over the last almost 40 years now to believe
:01:32. > :01:38.in any such thing as a sure deal. Good evening Malaysian airlines
:01:39. > :01:42.flight MH17 crashed near the border in eastern Ukraine near the rebel
:01:43. > :01:46.held town of Shaktarsk. Six of the passengers were British, the vast
:01:47. > :01:51.majority were Dutch, the latest estimates say 154 of the 295 people
:01:52. > :01:55.on board came from there. Immediately Ukraine's Government and
:01:56. > :01:58.pro-Russian seperatists traded blame for the disaster, which US
:01:59. > :02:06.intelligence agencies suggest was caused by a missile.
:02:07. > :02:13.Hundreds dead, bodies and wreckage spread over a wide area. Most of the
:02:14. > :02:18.pictures are too traumatic to show. Broken pieces of the plane's wings
:02:19. > :02:28.are marked with blue and red paint, the colours of Malaysian airlines. I
:02:29. > :02:30.have just spoken with the Prime Minister of the Netherland and
:02:31. > :02:33.offered condolences on behalf of the Ukrainian people and asked Dutch
:02:34. > :02:36.experts to investigate this act of terrorism. I would like to draw your
:02:37. > :02:43.ascension to the fact that we are not calling it an accident or
:02:44. > :02:50.disaster but an act of terrorism. Malaysian allonlation airlines
:02:51. > :02:56.flight left Amsterdam today, Schipol is one of the busiest airports in
:02:57. > :03:02.the world. It flew east through Germany and Poland before the signal
:03:03. > :03:05.vanished, directly over disputed territory in eastern Ukraine. It
:03:06. > :03:09.should have continued on through Afghanistan and India towards Kuala
:03:10. > :03:12.Lumpur. In recent months seperatists are believed to have shot down a
:03:13. > :03:22.number of Ukrainian military jets over the region. Commercial airlines
:03:23. > :03:27.from British airlines -- British Airways to Lufthansa have said they
:03:28. > :03:32.will divert way from the area. The practice is you could carry on
:03:33. > :03:36.flying commercial aircraft over 35,000 feet over a conflict zone. It
:03:37. > :03:40.happened before in Iraq and in Afghanistan during those crises.
:03:41. > :03:45.Commercial aircraft traditionally would have been beyond the reach of
:03:46. > :03:50.whatever was going on the ground. Clearly with the incident today this
:03:51. > :03:54.may now change. This evening the air pays around Donetsk was closed to
:03:55. > :03:58.all commercial traffic. These pictures from a flight-tracking
:03:59. > :04:02.website showed commercial jets avoiding the whole region. Today's
:04:03. > :04:05.crash will prompt tough questions about why that route was being used
:04:06. > :04:11.at all, given the military tension in the country.
:04:12. > :04:13.Newsnight has seen a notice from the UK's Civil Aviation Authority
:04:14. > :04:19.released just last month warning airlines of a potentially hazardous
:04:20. > :04:23.situation over Ukrainian airspace, particularly Crimea to the south.
:04:24. > :04:27.Due, it says, to the potential misidentification of civil aircraft.
:04:28. > :04:33.Ukrainian officials were quick to blame Russian-backed seperatists for
:04:34. > :04:36.shooting down the airliner. The country's state Security Service
:04:37. > :04:40.posted what it said were telephone intercepts of the conversation
:04:41. > :04:43.between two Russian intelligence officers panicking when they
:04:44. > :04:48.realised the plane was a civilian airliner. The authenticity of these
:04:49. > :04:51.recordings cannot be confirmed and the rebels have strongly
:04:52. > :04:56.recordings cannot be confirmed and involvement in the crash. If a
:04:57. > :05:02.missile was to blame, then hitting an airliner at 33,000 feet will need
:05:03. > :05:06.expensive military-grade hardware. The Ukrainians claim a BUK
:05:07. > :05:09.anti-careful missile system like this one was used, it is accepted
:05:10. > :05:13.that Russia has supplied rebels with military equipment, but there is no
:05:14. > :05:16.solid proof of something this sophisticated, a launch similar to
:05:17. > :05:21.this was reported to have been seen this week near a rebel-held town. It
:05:22. > :05:25.would be a new level of capability for the seperatists in antiaircraft
:05:26. > :05:31.terms, it would have been supplied from Russia, the smaller man-powered
:05:32. > :05:37.systems we have seen in rebel hands in recent months are not capable of
:05:38. > :05:41.reaching an airliner at that altitude, it would be like the
:05:42. > :05:44.system of the BUK and externally supplied. At the crash site it is
:05:45. > :06:06.not clear who is responsible for what is a major disaster scene. The
:06:07. > :06:09.Malaysian Government has warrant it will investigate.
:06:10. > :06:17.You have just come from a press conference and we now know that of
:06:18. > :06:23.the 295, 154 pass engers were Dutch. This is a dreadful moment for the
:06:24. > :06:27.country. It really, in the report they were talking about a national
:06:28. > :06:30.strategy for Malaysia and certainly for the Netherlands, this evening
:06:31. > :06:34.here at the airport some of the relatives have been coming here. A
:06:35. > :06:39.few moments ago an airport bus with about 12 relatives of some of those
:06:40. > :06:42.on board drove past, we had seen others driving past earlier, this
:06:43. > :06:46.time round with 12 of them, blank expressions on their faces. It is
:06:47. > :06:49.just unimaginable the anguish that they are going through at the
:06:50. > :06:56.moment. At that press conference we are told 154 Dutch people on that
:06:57. > :06:59.plane, six British, 27 Australians, 23 Malaysians and a variety of
:07:00. > :07:02.others, French, Belgians and the like. The French Foreign Minister
:07:03. > :07:07.this evening has said that there must be an inquiry into this, rapid
:07:08. > :07:11.and urgent inquiry into this. But certainly with the Dutch Prime
:07:12. > :07:15.Minister returning from an earlier visit to Belgium, cutting short that
:07:16. > :07:18.visit and returning to the Hague this evening, we expect some more
:07:19. > :07:21.words from the Dutch Government either in the coming hours or
:07:22. > :07:24.certainly tomorrow. Was anything said about the investigation,
:07:25. > :07:30.particularly in relation to the black box, because there are stories
:07:31. > :07:35.not confirmed that seperatists in Donetsk have that black box? They
:07:36. > :07:43.weren't telling us anything that I heard about that here at Schipol.
:07:44. > :07:47.They did say that a team from Malaysian Airlines will shorting be
:07:48. > :07:51.on its way to Kiev to launch their own investigation, you would have to
:07:52. > :07:54.imagine that official also do all they could to get their hand on any
:07:55. > :07:56.information they could, especially the flight recorders.
:07:57. > :08:02.Thank you very much for joining us. With us now in the studio is Doug
:08:03. > :08:06.Richardson missiles and rockets engineering for the international
:08:07. > :08:09.defence review. First of all, we heard in that film there
:08:10. > :08:19.possibilities of a BUK weapon. Is that a kind of weapon that can hit a
:08:20. > :08:30.passenger Jetta height? , at that height? As soon as I heard I checked
:08:31. > :08:36.what level -- a jet, at that height? You can work it out, yes, they are
:08:37. > :08:38.heavily radared and traffic controlled network, they have a
:08:39. > :08:45.perfect coverage of what is going on, my suspicion moved to the medium
:08:46. > :08:49.range category. This weapon can it operate without separate radar? It
:08:50. > :08:52.can, normally it does, it is vehicle-mounted, a vehicle has a
:08:53. > :08:55.radar which is all around looking to get the tactical picture. There is a
:08:56. > :08:58.second vehicle, which is the command post, which receives that
:08:59. > :09:04.information, where the commander can decide if something is a threat, use
:09:05. > :09:08.his computers to plan interception and align the job to a missile
:09:09. > :09:11.launcher. The missile launcher then goes on target. But you know this
:09:12. > :09:16.idea that the commercial jets could fly above 33,000 feet, can this
:09:17. > :09:22.rocket launcher not hit targets higher than that? Yes indeed.
:09:23. > :09:25.20,000ms we believe, which is about 70,000 feet. It was no protection
:09:26. > :09:32.really to commercial jets to be flying at 33,000 feet? No. Who has
:09:33. > :09:37.the BUK? The Russians have the BUK, the Ukrainians have the BUK and we
:09:38. > :09:43.have certainly seen film and images of BUK hardware in the seperatist
:09:44. > :09:48.hands. So if all these different groups have it, do all these
:09:49. > :09:54.different groups have the expertise, or is there different levels of
:09:55. > :09:58.expertise, what I'm getting at here, this was a huge passenger JESHTHS
:09:59. > :10:03.would they have had any -- jet, would they have had any idea what
:10:04. > :10:07.they were aiming at? If they had a complete BUK system. The launcher
:10:08. > :10:11.can operate on its own, it has its own little radar in it, it just
:10:12. > :10:15.looks forward. I'm looking at you, I'm not ware of the cameras around
:10:16. > :10:23.here and what they are doing, it is like that. In autonomous mode it can
:10:24. > :10:29.look at what is in front of it and the local commander can decide what
:10:30. > :10:36.to engage. That sounds cavalier, they must have known commercial jets
:10:37. > :10:41.were in the skies? They would have had no way of telling which targets
:10:42. > :10:45.were commercial or military. Is there any way that any passenger jet
:10:46. > :10:52.would know of an impending take? No, no warning at all. Is there any way
:10:53. > :10:55.by looking at the fuselage when the investigators go, that they will
:10:56. > :10:59.know what it was hit by? I should think so, the distribution of
:11:00. > :11:04.schrapnal marks on the wreckage and the way it is broken up will give
:11:05. > :11:07.clues as to what sort of explosives and warhead was used. What do you
:11:08. > :11:10.think the Intelligence Services will be looking for when they piece this
:11:11. > :11:15.together? They will be trying to find out who gave the order to fire.
:11:16. > :11:22.Was it a single launcher operating autonomously, or was this given by a
:11:23. > :11:26.senior commander. What are the technical signs they can look for.
:11:27. > :11:31.Presumably if they find the rocket launcher on the ground, will they
:11:32. > :11:35.have any idea of the target and the trajectory from the launcher itself?
:11:36. > :11:38.They may have, but if there was any information recorded it could be
:11:39. > :11:47.deleted. It is extraordinary, if you think about the USS Finsend they
:11:48. > :11:51.shot down a passenger airliner in 1988, that was you would think the
:11:52. > :11:57.technology would move on? The BUK is an old system now. But the
:11:58. > :12:03.Ukrainian, the Russians and seperatists are still using it? Yes
:12:04. > :12:07.and many other people are using it. The Boeing 777 crash comes after a
:12:08. > :12:14.series of ground-to-air attacks in eastern Ukraine, one of which downed
:12:15. > :12:22.a Ukrainian fighter plane yesterday, Ukraine lay the responsibility at
:12:23. > :12:25.Russia's door for that, but they denied.
:12:26. > :12:33.Picking through the rubble after what pro-Russian rep cysts say was a
:12:34. > :12:36.Ukrainian -- seperatists say was a Ukrainian military crash. For this
:12:37. > :12:40.high stakes battle in the east, the Government has forced rebels out of
:12:41. > :12:44.former strongholds. It has all added to the misery of the people and
:12:45. > :12:49.according to outside observers the complexities and dangers of the
:12:50. > :12:54.conflict. There was a report where the plane went down. Recently we
:12:55. > :13:02.reported that there are as many as 100 armed groups with as many as
:13:03. > :13:05.4,000 men in their membership. That is a lot of groups controlling a
:13:06. > :13:11.relatively small part of the Ukraine. The rebels have been forced
:13:12. > :13:16.back to their heartland of Donetsk and Luhansk. The fear is the next
:13:17. > :13:19.phase of the conflict will be even deadlier urban warfare. The rebels
:13:20. > :13:22.are still claiming their own successes on the ground against
:13:23. > :13:26.Kiev's force, but the tables have been turned from the early days when
:13:27. > :13:29.the east seems to be spinning out of Kiev's control. That's adding to the
:13:30. > :13:34.pressure, not only on the rebels, but also on their friends across the
:13:35. > :13:37.border in Russia. Footage like this has added to growing western charges
:13:38. > :13:40.that Moscow is supplying heavy weapons and fighters.
:13:41. > :13:43.that Moscow is supplying heavy continues to deny. There have been
:13:44. > :13:45.two fact sheets published in recent days, one by
:13:46. > :13:48.two fact sheets published in recent ambassador to the EU, one by the
:13:49. > :13:53.state department in ambassador to the EU, one by the
:13:54. > :14:00.facts and figures, a lot of video, a lot of satellite pictures of things
:14:01. > :14:03.like tanks crossing the border, east to west from Russia to Ukraine.
:14:04. > :14:10.Those kinds of things you can spot. But of course smaller arms or even
:14:11. > :14:13.rockets no-one knows their exact provenance. But Russia has been
:14:14. > :14:18.pretty clearly supplying the rebels and supplying them with more in the
:14:19. > :14:24.last few weeks or so. Families have been fleeing the east's main cities,
:14:25. > :14:28.fearing a prolonged Government siege is more likely than a possible
:14:29. > :14:31.ceasefire. The thing that makes it extremely complicated for everybody
:14:32. > :14:35.is you have smaller rebel groups that aren't necessarily connected
:14:36. > :14:39.with the bigger ones. So for the longest time we said that the areas
:14:40. > :14:43.particularly challenging in a sense that larger rebel groups can make
:14:44. > :14:47.some kind of ceasefire agreement, but it is not necessarily honour bid
:14:48. > :14:58.the smaller groups. Rebels preparing to make their next stand in Donetsk,
:14:59. > :15:01.this on going crisis was the biggest post Cold War conflict in Europe. It
:15:02. > :15:05.is souring relations between the west and Russia. It will make the
:15:06. > :15:10.fall-out from the downing of the airliner hugely difficult to
:15:11. > :15:18.predict. I'm joined by my guest, the acting Ukrainian ambassador to the
:15:19. > :15:21.UK. Good evening. What do you have by way of evidence to call this an
:15:22. > :15:30.act of terrorism, which indeed your country has done? First of all let
:15:31. > :15:35.me start by joining my President to the expressions of sympathy to the
:15:36. > :15:40.victims of the act of terror. We feel it is an act of terror. Ukraine
:15:41. > :15:43.has a sophisticated system of air traffic control, we know all the
:15:44. > :15:50.information about the flight. Moreover, we don't have at the
:15:51. > :15:57.military in the National Guard right now the weapons as capable to shut
:15:58. > :16:02.down the airliner at such a high altitude. Interesting though,
:16:03. > :16:04.because Doug Richardson said a minute ago, you might have heard
:16:05. > :16:08.him, that actually the weapon that was most likely, if indeed this was
:16:09. > :16:14.a terrorist attack, to have shot down the Malaysian airliner was a
:16:15. > :16:19.BUK and that is held by the Russians, and Ukrainian forces and
:16:20. > :16:27.also bicepists in Donetsk. Do you actually have these ground-to-air
:16:28. > :16:33.missiles? We have in Ukraine, but not over the area of the conflict.
:16:34. > :16:38.Reportedly some of the BUK systems were taken by the seperatists while
:16:39. > :16:43.taking the control over the territory which is out of the
:16:44. > :16:47.Ukrainian power now. I know there are negotiations for a ceasefire,
:16:48. > :16:52.but all the debris and the dreadful crash screen is in eastern Ukraine
:16:53. > :16:56.which is in rebel hands just now. What chance do you think that the
:16:57. > :17:00.Ukrainian Government is going to be able to get into that area to do a
:17:01. > :17:06.thorough search and recover bodies and for families all over the world,
:17:07. > :17:10.they need to know that they are going to get their families back?
:17:11. > :17:17.First of all I would like to inform you that the President ordered to
:17:18. > :17:22.create the special investigation commission on the participation of
:17:23. > :17:28.the international experts, including from the Netherlands, Malaysia and
:17:29. > :17:33.the international civilian aviation organisations which is with the aim
:17:34. > :17:37.to ensure transparency and a fair investigation. I have the
:17:38. > :17:42.information, I have heard that the seperatists already found the black
:17:43. > :17:47.box, very speedy, very fast and they are intending to remove them to
:17:48. > :17:53.Russia under my information, this is very suspicious. Probably we will
:17:54. > :18:01.see the same situation as it was during the tragic event where the
:18:02. > :18:06.Polish President was killed in the crash. Just to be clear for our
:18:07. > :18:10.viewers, we haven't confirmation that the seperatists have got the
:18:11. > :18:13.black box, we are only hearing rumours of that, that is not
:18:14. > :18:19.confirmed. Are you going to ask for that black box if it is in their
:18:20. > :18:23.hands to come back to you? If we will have the control over that
:18:24. > :18:29.black box, of course we will act together with the international
:18:30. > :18:32.experts just tone sure the transparent procedures. Thank you
:18:33. > :18:49.very much. Well I'm joined now from -- to ensure the procedures. I'm
:18:50. > :18:53.joined by my guestsures. Thank you very much. Well I'm joined now
:18:54. > :19:01.What do you make of this? First of all I share the ambassador's view
:19:02. > :19:06.that it is the room for doubt is shrinking very rapidly. The plane
:19:07. > :19:10.was clearly shot down, the US Government has now stated that they
:19:11. > :19:15.saw the missile on the radar. It is clear that it came from, it is clear
:19:16. > :19:19.where it came from, from eastern Ukraine. The more important point is
:19:20. > :19:23.the only group of people who have been shooting down planes in Ukraine
:19:24. > :19:28.in recent days are the seperatists together with their Russian backers.
:19:29. > :19:33.The Ukrainian army is not shooting down planes because the seperatists
:19:34. > :19:36.aren't using planes. The only surface-to-air missiles in operation
:19:37. > :19:40.are coming from the seperatist regions, operated by the seperatist,
:19:41. > :19:45.together with the Russian experts who know how to use them. Can you
:19:46. > :19:49.come to you, the allegation will be that the seperatists in eastern
:19:50. > :19:56.Ukraine are getting their hardware from Russia, and now with these
:19:57. > :19:59.dreadful fatalities, surely there will be, if it is proved to be the
:20:00. > :20:06.case that it was the seperatists then the pressure will be on Russia,
:20:07. > :20:10.will be on Vladimir Putin? The fatalities are on a dreadful scale,
:20:11. > :20:14.that is really sinking in. I mean the percentage of Dutch people who
:20:15. > :20:18.were killed in this is greater than the percentage of Americans who were
:20:19. > :20:22.killed in 9/11. If this was an act of terror this is an act of terror
:20:23. > :20:27.on a really serious scale. It does point back to Russia and the
:20:28. > :20:31.Russians have been very quick to react they have already blamed the
:20:32. > :20:36.Ukrainian Government. That seems unlikely, it seems unlikely that any
:20:37. > :20:40.Government would be behind this. The weapons' systems seem most he likely
:20:41. > :20:43.to have brought about this disaster when in the hands of
:20:44. > :20:47.non-Governmental forces. That is the most likely scenario, and in
:20:48. > :20:53.addition to the arguments that you had an incomplete system who were
:20:54. > :20:56.not experienced and shooting down whatever they happened to see. This
:20:57. > :21:00.is the kind of thing that happens when you deliberately destroy
:21:01. > :21:04.authorities and allow arms to go across your own border in order to
:21:05. > :21:11.create chaos. What begins as a kind of political fantasy of Russia that
:21:12. > :21:17.has territories that will fall into line, now becomes an international
:21:18. > :21:21.catastrophe, it is the fantasy meeting reality as large numbers of
:21:22. > :21:26.people have been killed. This idea that it is dreadful catastrophe for
:21:27. > :21:29.295 families, but it is an international catastrophe, and
:21:30. > :21:33.Russia is denying any involvement in this. Tell me from where you are
:21:34. > :21:38.standing, what does it look like for Russia? It looks like very bad news
:21:39. > :21:42.for Russia, of course. The evidence is accumulating that their clients
:21:43. > :21:46.in eastern Ukraine were responsible for this. Inevitably it adds to the
:21:47. > :21:51.international pressures they find themselves under. Not only from the
:21:52. > :21:54.west, but from the nonaligned, whoa on the whole, so far, have remained
:21:55. > :21:59.on the fence with regard to this dispute. If the Russians are wise
:22:00. > :22:05.and they are on the whole pretty shrewd about this stuff, they will
:22:06. > :22:11.work quite hard to distance themselves from the seperatists in
:22:12. > :22:13.eastern Ukraine, and they will support investigations of the
:22:14. > :22:16.incident. They will try to make it clear they get their weapons from
:22:17. > :22:19.somewhere else. They will continue a process already under way, which is
:22:20. > :22:23.gradually letting those seperatists go, and let the Ukrainians reoccupy
:22:24. > :22:27.the east. So what do you think is going on in Moscow right now,
:22:28. > :22:31.tonight? I think there are probably some anxious conversations going on,
:22:32. > :22:35.and they will be looking for ways to minimise the damage and, as I say,
:22:36. > :22:39.to distance themselves from this catastrophe. Is that your analysis?
:22:40. > :22:43.I would disagree a little bit in that it looks like in the last few
:22:44. > :22:46.days the Russians have actually been stepping up their involvement with
:22:47. > :22:49.eastern Ukraine. There have been more weapons coming over the board e
:22:50. > :22:52.there is more evidence of Russian involvement. There were some
:22:53. > :22:56.Ukrainian military successes a couple of weeks ago, there has been
:22:57. > :23:00.a big Russian response recently. So far from pulling out of this or
:23:01. > :23:03.showing any signs of pulling out of it, they have been pushing the
:23:04. > :23:09.border more and more and pushing into it. The question is now whether
:23:10. > :23:14.this is a sufficient wake-up call to anger the west to finally, so we can
:23:15. > :23:18.finally drop the idea that this is some kind of local people, this is
:23:19. > :23:20.some kind of movement with legitimacy, and we can now
:23:21. > :23:26.understand it for what it is, which is a major Russian intervention into
:23:27. > :23:29.the affairs of its neighbours. A major Russian intervention which
:23:30. > :23:33.indeed the international community has stepped back from for a while,
:23:34. > :23:38.do they need to step up to the plate too? Russia has been very successful
:23:39. > :23:41.of playing the game of masking what it is doing, we are sort of
:23:42. > :23:46.involved, not really involved, some of our weapons are there, we don't
:23:47. > :23:51.know how they got there. Now it is time for the west to stop listening
:23:52. > :23:54.to this game and playing by this ridiculous Russian rhetoric and be
:23:55. > :23:57.clear of what is happening, this is an invasion. What do you think the
:23:58. > :24:01.international community should do now about the whole problem in
:24:02. > :24:09.eastern Ukraine, and the problem with dealing with Russia? In so far
:24:10. > :24:13.as this action is concerned, I agree with the ambassador, in principle,
:24:14. > :24:17.it would be good if Russia said now is the time for an international
:24:18. > :24:21.investigation, thus far, unfortunately, they have done
:24:22. > :24:24.exactly the opposite. They have asked Ukrainian authorities to give
:24:25. > :24:27.Russian authorities responsibility for the investigation. Which is
:24:28. > :24:31.exactly the opposite of what would normally happen in exactly the
:24:32. > :24:37.opposite of what should happen. This ought to be a turning point where we
:24:38. > :24:40.begin to destinge given the alternative reality that the Putin
:24:41. > :24:45.regime has been presenting to us. This is some kind of internal crisis
:24:46. > :24:49.and Ukrainian affair, that there is something wrong with the Ukrainian
:24:50. > :24:53.Government and Russia has historical rights. This is an alternative
:24:54. > :24:58.reality we have shown we can live with, but we ought not. I was going
:24:59. > :25:04.to say to the formeram bass do is that the problem -- former
:25:05. > :25:07.ambassador, is it that we in the international community have been
:25:08. > :25:17.sending the wrong signals and almost part of what is going on in eastern
:25:18. > :25:20.Ukraine? Well I don't think we have been very effective, but I don't
:25:21. > :25:23.think the things that we have done have actually been calculated to
:25:24. > :25:27.push the Russians in the right direction any way. To the extent we
:25:28. > :25:32.generate the impression in Russia that this is an east versus west
:25:33. > :25:37.conflict, it becomes much harder for Putin to back off. I accept Anne's
:25:38. > :25:42.point that the Russians have occasionally moved forward in
:25:43. > :25:44.backing the seperatists and then occasionally moved back. They have
:25:45. > :25:50.moved a long way barks they were at one point poised to invade and fight
:25:51. > :25:54.war in eastern Ukraine. Since then they have let the Ukrainian army
:25:55. > :25:59.gain traction and space in the area. The product of this event, this
:26:00. > :26:04.tragic event is I suspect that the Russians will feel constrained to
:26:05. > :26:10.move further in that direction. That is a good thing but at huge price. I
:26:11. > :26:15.wanted to turn the ambassador for the last world, what will Ukraine do
:26:16. > :26:19.and what do you want the rest of the world to do? We need the reaction of
:26:20. > :26:24.the European countries corporately to deal with this tragic event. We
:26:25. > :26:29.need assistance, it is clear enough for us that we are fighting with the
:26:30. > :26:32.military machine, the number three in the world rank. We are not the
:26:33. > :26:42.richest country of Europe, but we are living in the small European
:26:43. > :26:48.home where we together standing for our values.
:26:49. > :26:51.Israel has begun a ground offensive in Gaza with troops landing on the
:26:52. > :26:54.very beach where four Palestinian boys died yesterday. In a statement
:26:55. > :26:58.from Binyamin Netanyahu's office, the reason for the offensive was
:26:59. > :27:01.given as hitting the terror tunnels from Gaza into Israel. While Hamas
:27:02. > :27:05.warned tonight that the invasion will have dreadful consequences.
:27:06. > :27:14.Just before we came on air I spoke to our correspondent in Tel Aviv.
:27:15. > :27:18.Do you think there was an inevitability that the Israelis
:27:19. > :27:22.would launch a ground invasion, or did something happen today to make
:27:23. > :27:26.that? The Israelis say that they were all prepared for a ceasefire.
:27:27. > :27:34.That Egypt had brokered a deal and that Hamas rejected it. We have take
:27:35. > :27:37.that with a heavy pinch of salt. Neither Egypt for the Israelis are
:27:38. > :27:41.friends of Hamas. But the one thing that does seem to have tipped the
:27:42. > :27:44.balance in favour of a ground invasion was this attempted
:27:45. > :27:49.incursion, infiltration, if you like, by heavily armed Palestinian
:27:50. > :27:55.gunmen from Gaza this morning into Israeli territory. Their
:27:56. > :28:00.rocket-propelled grenades and they had automatic weapons. They were
:28:01. > :28:03.intending to target a kibbutz inside Israel proper. 13 gunmen tried to
:28:04. > :28:10.make it through. We were down in that area today and there was a huge
:28:11. > :28:16.military operation taking place on the Israeli side, lots of heavy
:28:17. > :28:23.armour and well-armed troops. So Israel it does seem that particular
:28:24. > :28:28.event has pushed Israel further. There are consequences to a ground
:28:29. > :28:35.incursion, we have already seen 230 civilian, Palestinian civilians
:28:36. > :28:49.killed through aerial bombardments and naval bombardments, . Gaza is
:28:50. > :28:55.highly prop populated and Hamas are known to put people as shields. Will
:28:56. > :29:00.Israel have Hamas under the thumb after all this? I spoke to a Israeli
:29:01. > :29:04.official a while a he said we are not looking for some kind of Band
:29:05. > :29:09.Aid solution here, we want something more than that. Israel is not intent
:29:10. > :29:17.on a temporary pause in stopping Hamas rockets. It wants to stop them
:29:18. > :29:21.permanently. Is it realistic? Probably not, Israel has to attempt
:29:22. > :29:27.that. You can't do it from air or sea, if you want to get to the
:29:28. > :29:30.supplies that Gaza has in its many thousands you need boots on the
:29:31. > :29:38.ground. When it comes to boots on the ground you start getting Israeli
:29:39. > :29:44.casualties. We are ten days in to Operation Protective Edge, as it was
:29:45. > :29:48.called. Only one dead Israeli but many Palestinians. That won't remain
:29:49. > :29:54.the case when Israeli troops are on the ground. We have seen when they
:29:55. > :29:59.made a small incursion a few days ago that they suffered casualties,
:30:00. > :30:04.only light ones but when you send in so many troops, and commanders deep
:30:05. > :30:09.on the beach in gas star, they will be backed up by troops on the
:30:10. > :30:15.ground. The likelihood for casualties on both sides increases
:30:16. > :30:19.dramatically. I spoke to my guest, a professor of political science in
:30:20. > :30:24.Gaza via Skype. After the efforts by Egypt and many
:30:25. > :30:30.other countries in the region to try to broker a ceasefire between Hamas
:30:31. > :30:35.and the Israelis and these efforts did not lead to our positive
:30:36. > :30:39.results, it was expected that the Israelis sooner or later would start
:30:40. > :30:44.a ground invasion against the Gaza strip. But I have to admit we didn't
:30:45. > :30:50.think it would happen tonight. We hope were hoping that there will be
:30:51. > :30:57.a new ceasefire within the coming 48 hours, it seems to me that the
:30:58. > :31:01.operations by Hamas operatives today in which Tony Blair team members of
:31:02. > :31:06.Hamas infiltrated from a tunnel inside Israel, that put more
:31:07. > :31:11.pressure on the Israeli army to try to invade limited areas of the Gaza
:31:12. > :31:17.strip to respond back against the infiltration of Hamas members.
:31:18. > :31:23.Do you think in fact this might finally put paid to Hamas's
:31:24. > :31:32.strength? It seems to me that Hamas is gaining some support for its be
:31:33. > :31:36.launching missiles against Israeli towns and villages. It will be too
:31:37. > :31:41.early to see what the Palestinian mood is. Let me say in my duty to
:31:42. > :31:49.Palestinians, that they are angry and tired of this repeated scenario,
:31:50. > :31:55.for the past six years this is war number three against the Gaza strip.
:31:56. > :32:01.Now I would imagine that the Palestinians are sick and tired of
:32:02. > :32:09.being subjected to an Israeli war and Israeli aggression. This is not
:32:10. > :32:14.the time to criticise Hamas, whether right or wrong. The Palestinians
:32:15. > :32:19.refrain at the moment to get beside Hamas. The majority are keeping
:32:20. > :32:30.silent to what is happening right now. But once this war is over I
:32:31. > :32:34.will be very definite that the Palestinians evaluate what they have
:32:35. > :32:40.gained and lost from this war. And that would be the time to see
:32:41. > :32:44.whether Hamas has gained or not. Isn't this a chance for the
:32:45. > :32:48.Palestinian Authority and Fatah to exert some kind of influence and
:32:49. > :32:57.control over Hamas. This is your last chance? A reconciliation
:32:58. > :33:01.agreement was reached on April 23rd three months ago, and a new
:33:02. > :33:07.Government was put into effect on June 2nd, with the approval of
:33:08. > :33:10.Hamas. It seems to me the Palestinian President, Abbas, is
:33:11. > :33:15.trying through his diplomatic means to convince Hamas to agree to a
:33:16. > :33:23.ceasefire with the Israelis, but he wasn't able to convince them Hamas
:33:24. > :33:30.is basically behaving as the de facto party here in the Gaza strip.
:33:31. > :33:35.They do not listen to either the President or Fatah. That might have
:33:36. > :33:42.even bigger ramification force the continuation of the unity Government
:33:43. > :33:45.between Hamas and Fatah. Once the war is over.
:33:46. > :33:54.Israel's ambassador to the UK is with me now. Was the decision to
:33:55. > :33:57.invade taken today as a result of the attempt and on incursion into
:33:58. > :34:01.invade taken today as a result of the kibbutz or what is the plan?
:34:02. > :34:07.This is a phased operation, even in the face of these 1,500 rockets
:34:08. > :34:13.fired on us, we wanted to give Hamas the chance not to escalate, we
:34:14. > :34:16.wanted to deescalate, that is why we accepted the Egyptian ceasefire
:34:17. > :34:22.proposal and a humanitarian window today. It was always going to be a
:34:23. > :34:28.humanitarian window and resumption of hostilities? Even in the face of
:34:29. > :34:31.it we saw no attempt for Hamas to escalate. The point of the
:34:32. > :34:37.escalation is not just in the missile, we have had 1,500 rockets
:34:38. > :34:42.and missiles this month. Also as you said a number of new lethal attacks
:34:43. > :34:46.including from the sea and these terror tunnels. Including the tunnel
:34:47. > :34:50.today. We are in a situation where you have had one fatality and the
:34:51. > :34:54.Palestinians have had nearly 300, most of which are civilians, and
:34:55. > :34:58.after the four boys yesterday we had three children on a roof feeding
:34:59. > :35:02.pigeons. This is not going to be pretty at all for the Israelis
:35:03. > :35:07.either when we grow on the ground. That is why we have tried to avoid
:35:08. > :35:14.it and not escalate it. In a situation where Hamas insists on
:35:15. > :35:22.that, and increasing the number of missiles. The civilian toll is
:35:23. > :35:25.tragic. Pickly our President apologised today for the tragic
:35:26. > :35:28.incident of the three boys. It is worth rembering today that just
:35:29. > :35:34.today we felt, as we have been pointing to, our stockpile of Hamas
:35:35. > :35:39.rockets inside a UN school. When you have that sort of situation... . You
:35:40. > :35:42.perhaps heard earlier in the programme the comment that this
:35:43. > :35:51.could never be actually won or lost from the air, it had to be a ground
:35:52. > :35:55.offensive if you were able to make a point. If you believe the
:35:56. > :36:00.Palestinians will put up people as human shields you will kill more
:36:01. > :36:07.civilians and cause fatalities. You were in there for eight years are
:36:08. > :36:10.you trying to wipe out Hamas? We have made the pledges clear, we have
:36:11. > :36:17.a situation where 5 million Israelis, more than 50% of our
:36:18. > :36:21.population, has to reach within bomb shelters because the Gaza strip
:36:22. > :36:24.doesn't stop firing missiles, if they don't stop we will have to. You
:36:25. > :36:32.know what the Palestinian people want is peace. Therefore what you of
:36:33. > :36:41.have have to do is negotiate for the majority of the people. We were
:36:42. > :36:44.trying hard to negotiate with the Palestinians, but Hamas is not
:36:45. > :36:50.interested in negotiating, they have made it clear, they have not problem
:36:51. > :36:53.with, they are not thinking about peace, they are thinking about how
:36:54. > :36:56.to destroy the state of Israel. All conflict has to be resolved by
:36:57. > :37:01.negotiation one way or another. You say Hamas is not interested in
:37:02. > :37:05.negotiating, would the Israelis negotiate with Hamas? The British
:37:06. > :37:08.Government won't. Either it is a terrorist organisation, here it is a
:37:09. > :37:13.terrorist organisation, here in Europe it is throughout the world.
:37:14. > :37:19.When will you leave the Gaza strip who will term when you leave? When
:37:20. > :37:29.we can in a way that security of our people. We pulled out 8,000 Israelis
:37:30. > :37:38.and dismandled every settlement and left the greenhouses for an
:37:39. > :37:42.agricultural culture. And Hamas came in and pulled everyone out. We will
:37:43. > :37:48.move out if we can ensure the security of our country.
:37:49. > :37:53.Once an American President always an American President, they keep their
:37:54. > :37:58.title for life. Bill Clinton hasn't been in the Oval Office for ten
:37:59. > :38:03.years. He talks about the deal he made with Hillary when she first ran
:38:04. > :38:08.for the Senate. He was speaking in India as he toured projects on food
:38:09. > :38:12.production, education and women's wealth supported by the Clinton
:38:13. > :38:16.foundation. She sat down and asked him how central the idea of equality
:38:17. > :38:26.is to his work? We have a very special emphasis on it. Not just
:38:27. > :38:31.women with HIV/AIDS or tuberculosis or Malaria, or the need to prevent
:38:32. > :38:35.mother-to-child transition. But the overall focus we had to have to
:38:36. > :38:47.empower women, which requires them to have access to good healthcare.
:38:48. > :38:52.We are really trying to meet with all these empowerment groups. It is
:38:53. > :38:56.an issue Hillary started calling "no ceilings". We want to be supportive
:38:57. > :39:00.of them and not do things that we think are good if they can be a part
:39:01. > :39:03.of what we are doing. We want to give them a chance to make the most
:39:04. > :39:09.of their lives. How do you do that in a country that institutionised
:39:10. > :39:14.inequality through the caste system that says some Indians are better
:39:15. > :39:23.than others Indians. You have to fight it and you have to do it, I
:39:24. > :39:31.think, in wherever possible specific concrete ways. Th don't raise all
:39:32. > :39:34.the cultural red flags. If you find something specific that is
:39:35. > :39:38.empowering for women and girls, then you can build on it and make it
:39:39. > :39:44.bigger and better. You are a globalist, you believe in the wider
:39:45. > :39:49.world here. Politically militarily, America now seems to be moving
:39:50. > :39:56.towards a noninterventionist position? Certainly on the military
:39:57. > :40:02.front, I think there are, there is probably a majority of our people
:40:03. > :40:13.who believe we made a mistake after 9/11 to jump into Iraq. Ooh And who
:40:14. > :40:16.have been frustrated by the inability to resolve the election in
:40:17. > :40:22.Afghanistan. Are you one of those people? My gut is we will resolve
:40:23. > :40:29.that and if they will ask the United States to stay involved. Because
:40:30. > :40:36.they have, there has really been a lot happen in Afghanistan. I think
:40:37. > :40:41.that probably that thing will fix itself up in the next few weeks. You
:40:42. > :40:49.say Afghanistan but don't mention Iraq? I don't know what will happen
:40:50. > :40:59.in Iraq yesterday. I think that based on what the Iraqi moderate
:41:00. > :41:03.Sunni do at the end of the gulf conflict they could probably play a
:41:04. > :41:06.very major role in holding the country together and in sharing
:41:07. > :41:16.responsibility for the future of the country. But Mr Mallon has
:41:17. > :41:20.-Al-Maliki has to be consistent on giving them equal partnership or
:41:21. > :41:27.leave office and given someone else a chance to do that. Is many part of
:41:28. > :41:34.the solution with America? Are -- is Iran part of the solution with
:41:35. > :41:42.America? They could be, it will be give if they -- difficult if they
:41:43. > :41:49.keep asking for amount of centre fewing and -- centre fuge more than
:41:50. > :41:53.anyone else. There is very little leadership coming from America right
:41:54. > :42:00.now? They west need leadership, is that what you said. Don't we? Yes,
:42:01. > :42:03.but we have to deal with the intervening event. We are now
:42:04. > :42:24.involved in a very intense set of negotiations with Iran. Over how
:42:25. > :42:34.much of their, of their centrefuges they are going to take adown. We
:42:35. > :42:41.need to have alliances in the Iran, Iraq and Syria area. In terms of
:42:42. > :42:44.Israel and Gaza. When you were President you were the mediate to
:42:45. > :42:53.very hands on, now there is no Egypt, there is no America there? I
:42:54. > :43:00.was, but we also remember we had a very different circumstance there.
:43:01. > :43:07.That is there was an operating majority in Israel under both Prime
:43:08. > :43:14.Minister Netenyahu and Mr Rabin before. And then Barak afterwards,
:43:15. > :43:18.to keep working with the Palestinians and keep trying to work
:43:19. > :43:25.things out. It was a lot easier to do it when the Government wants to
:43:26. > :43:29.do it. Let's talk a little clears to home, how transformative will it be
:43:30. > :43:33.to have a woman President in the White House? Do I think it would be
:43:34. > :43:41.a good thing. Do you think it would be transformative? Depending on what
:43:42. > :43:46.the President did. It would be at one level transformative just
:43:47. > :43:54.because we have never had a woman elected, so I think that would be a
:43:55. > :44:04.good thing, but if the President showed a remarkable gift for both
:44:05. > :44:08.strength and toughness and for leaving the door open constantly for
:44:09. > :44:14.negotiation. That would be a good thing, it would represent what most
:44:15. > :44:21.people think of. Almost archetypal women's strengths you know. He
:44:22. > :44:29.always says women had the responsibility gene so you can be
:44:30. > :44:34.strong but you also we're going to have to govern with a level of
:44:35. > :44:42.co-operation that we are not used to right now. Are you ready to go on
:44:43. > :44:48.the road for another two years, full slog? No, what I'm ready to do is
:44:49. > :44:53.whatever she wants me to do. I really do believe, I know a lot of
:44:54. > :44:59.people don't believe me when I say this. We have had great life. We
:45:00. > :45:10.love what we are doing now in this foundation. On the other hand if you
:45:11. > :45:14.are President you have the opportunity to do things no-one else
:45:15. > :45:18.does. But you have to really have a theory of the case, you have to have
:45:19. > :45:27.ideas, politics and work at it. And it is an exhausting thing. I have
:45:28. > :45:32.told Hillary repeatedly she would have to make this decision, if she
:45:33. > :45:37.wants my opinion I will give it to her. She wasn't asked for your
:45:38. > :45:42.opinion on whether she should run? Absolutely not. For the last 14
:45:43. > :45:51.years she has had more hands on political experience than I have.
:45:52. > :46:00.First time in our lives. When she ran the last time in 2008 people
:46:01. > :46:05.kept asking me what I think, I just said I think it is her time and she
:46:06. > :46:16.gets to decide and if I can help I will. But we were mashied a very
:46:17. > :46:20.long -- married a very long time when she was deferring to my
:46:21. > :46:26.political career and policy making. I told her when she got elected to
:46:27. > :46:30.the Senate in New York that she had given me 26 years. So I intended to
:46:31. > :46:35.give her 26 years. Whatever she wanted to do was fine with me. If
:46:36. > :46:41.shen't whatted to know my opinion I would tell her. But she had cart e
:46:42. > :46:46.blanche to make whatever decision she wanted to and tell me what I
:46:47. > :46:53.needed to do. I have honoured that. We have just past the half way mark
:46:54. > :47:00.and I have got to live another 12 years or so. So I guess I will have
:47:01. > :47:06.to be living to be 20 to be free at last. It is very important to us and
:47:07. > :47:09.I want her if she wants the job and she believes she can make a real
:47:10. > :47:14.difference and she has ideas to do it. I will be glad to help. I will
:47:15. > :47:20.do whatever I can. But I can tell you this, all these suggestions that
:47:21. > :47:26.she feels entitled to it, that is just not true. That is not true, we
:47:27. > :47:32.have been in too many races over the last 40 years now to believe in any
:47:33. > :47:48.such thing as a sew deal. Bill Clinton. That's all we have time for
:47:49. > :47:51.until tomorrow night, good night. Thunderstorms around as well, and
:47:52. > :47:55.during the day on Friday they will continue to move in order warts from
:47:56. > :47:59.North Wales over North West England into Northern Ireland and south-west
:48:00. > :48:00.Scotland. Heat and