:00:00. > :00:11.The British Government has said tonight that the growing weight of
:00:12. > :00:15.evidence suggests that the Malaysian flight was bound by a surface-to-air
:00:16. > :00:20.missile fired by seperatists in Ukraine. And President Obama pointed
:00:21. > :00:24.the finger at Vladimir Putin for training and arming them, he's not
:00:25. > :00:29.alone. Tonight we are in Washington, Malaysia and Ukraine.
:00:30. > :00:32.Here in Kiev senior military officials have poured scorn on the
:00:33. > :00:37.idea that the aeroplane could have been brought down by the rebels
:00:38. > :00:40.alone. Like a horseman trying to drive a Formula One racing car is
:00:41. > :00:45.how one officer described it. Why were the people who died ever
:00:46. > :00:49.put in the firing line when aviation authorities, the Russians and even
:00:50. > :00:52.amateur experts all knew planes had been previously shot down in the
:00:53. > :00:58.same area. When I looked on Tuesday morning, when I wrote my blog post,
:00:59. > :01:03.by then the Russian aircrafts were bypassing the eastern Ukrainian part
:01:04. > :01:11.and were flying around the Russian borders, so they were giving this
:01:12. > :01:16.area a wide berth. Here in Kuala Lumpur the Government is adamant is
:01:17. > :01:19.played by the book. The route and altitude was signed off at the
:01:20. > :01:22.highest international level, the airline insists it is not to blame.
:01:23. > :01:34.We hear from a former US Secretary of State of defence and former
:01:35. > :01:39.foreign and Defence Secretary. Good evening. 298 lives, more than half
:01:40. > :01:43.of them Dutch, 80 of them children, and amongst the dead ten Britons.
:01:44. > :01:55.There is a growing conviction on both sides of the Atlantic about
:01:56. > :01:59.where the blame lies. The Foreign Office is helping the repatriation
:02:00. > :02:06.of those killed, without a ceasefire where the plane was bounce downed,
:02:07. > :02:13.how hard is it for the air accident investigators to begin their work.
:02:14. > :02:18.The OSCE, was the first to get the investigators in today. Even though
:02:19. > :02:22.they did get access, under the auspices of the Ukrainian rebels.
:02:23. > :02:30.They said they were very circumscribed in what they could do.
:02:31. > :02:33.We were only there if the for an hour an-and-a-half, they said one of
:02:34. > :02:37.the fighters was aggressive and violent, one firing in the air. I
:02:38. > :02:40.have spoken to Dutch colleagues in touch with their side, they want to
:02:41. > :02:43.send investigators in as well because of the large number of Dutch
:02:44. > :02:47.people who lost their lives. They say they are very worried for their
:02:48. > :02:52.safety, that is their prime concern. Now the other difficulty with this
:02:53. > :02:55.investigation is of course jurisdiction, nobody agrees who has
:02:56. > :02:58.jurisdiction over this investigation. It should be an
:02:59. > :03:02.international one, but led by the country in which the crash occurred.
:03:03. > :03:06.But in fact there are worries that things like the black box and data
:03:07. > :03:10.recorders may have already been removed may already been in Russia,
:03:11. > :03:14.so some people are worried about data and evidence contamination. Now
:03:15. > :03:18.that said, there is already such a lot of evidence out there that many
:03:19. > :03:22.experts agree that it shouldn't take too long to get a pretty clear
:03:23. > :03:26.picture of what happened here and when that does become clear this
:03:27. > :03:30.could become a game changer for this conflict. We're about to show you
:03:31. > :03:35.the report we have compiled here this afternoon and I should say that
:03:36. > :03:40.some viewers may find some of the images, especially towards the end,
:03:41. > :03:43.distressing. Outside the Dutch embassy in Kiev
:03:44. > :03:48.they are grieving as if for their own.
:03:49. > :03:51.But these aren't relatives of the nearly 200 Dutch national who is
:03:52. > :03:57.lost their lives yesterday. These are Ukrainians. For weeks we have
:03:58. > :04:00.shed our tears over our own dead, the Ukraine President said today, we
:04:01. > :04:10.have tears left for the innocent victims of this crime. Today Ukraine
:04:11. > :04:13.mourns with you. Monitors from the OSCE reached the crash site this
:04:14. > :04:17.afternoon, they said rebel forces tried to hinder them in their
:04:18. > :04:21.investigations. MH17 was brought down by a missile, this much we
:04:22. > :04:25.know. But there are still many unanswered questions, who fired the
:04:26. > :04:32.rocket and where did the launcher come from? Kiev says this unverified
:04:33. > :04:36.footage shows a Soviet or Russian BUK surveys-to-air missile system on
:04:37. > :04:40.the move near the crash site missing two missiles. Here is a similar
:04:41. > :04:46.model on display on Red Square in Moscow. But the Ukrainian military
:04:47. > :04:51.uses the BUK system too, at the end of June rebels bragged they captured
:04:52. > :04:56.a BUK launcher when they overran a military base in eastern Ukraine. At
:04:57. > :05:01.around the same time as the Malaysian passenger jet crashed a
:05:02. > :05:06.rebel leader claimed on social media to have downed a military transport
:05:07. > :05:13.plane, after news of the passenger jet broke the post was deleted. So
:05:14. > :05:17.did the rebels shoot down the plane thinking it was a Ukrainian military
:05:18. > :05:23.aircraft, and if so, did they get help from Russia? At meetings of the
:05:24. > :05:27.military top brass, behind closed doors, I'm told they admit they
:05:28. > :05:31.can't be certain whether this rocket launcher was brought across the
:05:32. > :05:34.border from Russia or captured by rebels here in Ukraine. But they do
:05:35. > :05:38.believe that whoever fired the missile must have had help from the
:05:39. > :05:43.Russian side, especially in targeting. The idea that this plane
:05:44. > :05:48.was brought down by a bunch of Cossacks, one senior officer said,
:05:49. > :05:55.driving a Formula One car. This driving a Formula One car. This
:05:56. > :05:59.general was deputy chief of Ukraine's defence staff until 2010
:06:00. > :06:03.and an expert on rocket technology. He is convinced that the rebels
:06:04. > :06:08.couldn't have acted alone. TRANSLATION: They don't have the
:06:09. > :06:12.specialists, so they are using the Crimean template. Russian military
:06:13. > :06:15.service personnel without identification marks on their
:06:16. > :06:22.uniforms come in alongside the rebels, the whole thing is prepared
:06:23. > :06:26.by a Russian team. In Moscow President Putin denied any Russian
:06:27. > :06:32.involvement and laid the blame for the crash squarely at Kiev's door.
:06:33. > :06:35.TRANSLATION: I express my condolences on behalf of the Russian
:06:36. > :06:39.federation, I want to underline that this tragedy would not have happened
:06:40. > :06:44.if this land was at peace or at least combat operations had not been
:06:45. > :06:47.resumed. It is obvious that the state on whose territory this
:06:48. > :06:52.happened bears the responsibility for this. But in Washington,
:06:53. > :06:57.intelligence analysts say the downing of MH17 follows a disturbing
:06:58. > :07:04.pattern. We also know that this is not the first time a plane has been
:07:05. > :07:08.shot down in eastern Ukraine. Over the last several weeks
:07:09. > :07:13.Russian-backed seperatists have shot down a Ukrainian transport plane and
:07:14. > :07:17.helicopter, and they claimed responsibility for a Ukrainian
:07:18. > :07:21.fighter jet. Moreover we know these seperatists have received a steady
:07:22. > :07:27.flow of support from Russia. This includes arms and training. It
:07:28. > :07:33.includes heavy weapons, and it includes antiaircraft weapons. On
:07:34. > :07:42.Independence Square in Kiev, the barricades are still there, months
:07:43. > :07:45.after the old President was toppled but Ukrainians come here, not only
:07:46. > :07:51.to pay their respects to those who died fighting in their revolution.
:07:52. > :07:55.This woman's homemade poster needs no translation. Like many in this
:07:56. > :07:59.city, she sees Russia as the aggressive and believes Europe and
:08:00. > :08:04.America are letting him get away with it. TRANSLATION: You can fight
:08:05. > :08:10.Putin, she says, but you have to want to fight. This is where it all
:08:11. > :08:12.began, here on Independence Square, first here at the barricades with
:08:13. > :08:16.peaceful protests, first here at the barricades with
:08:17. > :08:22.dead bodies lying right here on the streets, and sniper fire whizzing up
:08:23. > :08:26.and down over these cobble stones. Now the fighting may have moved east
:08:27. > :08:35.now but as you can see Ukraine is still very much unfinished business.
:08:36. > :08:38.Today in the eastern side of Luhansk, shelling left more dead
:08:39. > :08:42.bodies in the streets. The fighting has been going on for months now,
:08:43. > :08:47.misery at home but largely ignored abroad. With the search for the
:08:48. > :08:51.bodies of the passengers of MH17, for the men, women and children who
:08:52. > :08:55.were shot down over the fields of eastern Ukraine, has propelled this
:08:56. > :08:59.conflict back to the forefront of the international agenda. Once the
:09:00. > :09:08.facts of this strategy become clearer, Russia and the west may be
:09:09. > :09:12.forced to deal with the problem. To discuss this I'm joined now by
:09:13. > :09:17.the former American deputy Defence Secretary, who is in Washington, and
:09:18. > :09:23.in the studio we have the former foreign secretary, Sir Malcolm
:09:24. > :09:26.Rifkind and the bureau chief of the Dutch radio station.
:09:27. > :09:30.First of all, do you think there is any real doubt now that Vladimir
:09:31. > :09:35.Putin's hands are all over this? Look, let me put it this way, if you
:09:36. > :09:41.give your car keys to a drunken teenager and he goes and kills a, it
:09:42. > :09:45.seems to me you are responsible and that is what you intended, it is
:09:46. > :09:53.more than just training and arming, it is incitement, and this whole
:09:54. > :09:58.tragedy and it is a tragedy, yet another chapter that began when
:09:59. > :10:02.Putin decided on Russian nationalism over Crimea, totally groundlessly, I
:10:03. > :10:05.think it is because he wants to divert attention from the corruption
:10:06. > :10:09.of his own regime in Moscow. Now that Downing Street has firmed up
:10:10. > :10:13.its position on this, is there any real doubt? There is, but obviously
:10:14. > :10:16.the independent inquiry has to do its job and come to its own
:10:17. > :10:21.conclusion. It is not just a question as to whether the actual
:10:22. > :10:26.attack on the aircraft came from the rebels in eastern Ukraine. There
:10:27. > :10:31.will thenk be a secondary question and a more important one, who was it
:10:32. > :10:37.controlling the missile launchers, was it the Ukrainian rebels or
:10:38. > :10:41.Russian Special Forces. You heard there it was like putting a guy who
:10:42. > :10:45.rides a horse in charge of a Formula One car? That was the question about
:10:46. > :10:48.whether getting advice and help from Russia. I'm not making the
:10:49. > :10:52.allegation, I don't know, we know there are large numbers of so called
:10:53. > :10:55.Russia volunteer who is are soldiers not wearing uniforms. They could
:10:56. > :10:59.have been actually controlling the missile launchers themselves rather
:11:00. > :11:04.than simply training the rebels. If that is bound to be the case, found
:11:05. > :11:09.to be the case, the consequences of that are what? Putin has to actually
:11:10. > :11:13.own up as to the fact that there are large numbers of Russian citizens
:11:14. > :11:18.I'm talking about, from the Russian federation who are actually fighting
:11:19. > :11:21.with the seperatists. There are Chechens but also from other parts
:11:22. > :11:25.of Russia. That actually makes the whole issue far more dangerous and
:11:26. > :11:31.disturbing even than it would otherwise have been. This is
:11:32. > :11:37.Vladimir Putin's strategy gone completely wrong isn't it? I'm not
:11:38. > :11:43.so sure. I would like to step back a bit and go back to the assumption
:11:44. > :11:48.that Russia's hands are all over this. This is what in fact President
:11:49. > :11:54.Obama said just a few hours before, he said all the evidence shows that
:11:55. > :11:58.way, that Russia is to blame. And then, let's conduct an
:11:59. > :12:03.investigation. Now it is like saying that Mr So-and-so is as guilty as
:12:04. > :12:14.sin and let's have an investigation after this. Does that be how the
:12:15. > :12:18.British system works. The seperatists were all too happy to
:12:19. > :12:22.owning up to downing a transport plane or a fighter jet or
:12:23. > :12:27.helicopter? There is so much conflicting evidence, allegations
:12:28. > :12:32.concoctions and conjectures are flying about, I wouldn't put my
:12:33. > :12:39.trust in that. I would trust an objective, impartial investigation.
:12:40. > :12:42.What do you say to point thaw can't -- that you can't have an
:12:43. > :12:47.investigation if you have prejudged it? As Mr Rifkind said there are
:12:48. > :12:51.Russian troops all over yarn Ukraine, so called volunteers, some
:12:52. > :12:56.of the called Chechens are the same Chechens that were helping Moscow
:12:57. > :13:00.carry out its genocide in Chechnya. Putin should remove the Russian
:13:01. > :13:04.troops from Ukraine and stop sending weapons in. You don't need an
:13:05. > :13:15.investigation to know that activity has to stop. He should stop inciting
:13:16. > :13:22.Russian separatism throughout the area. Why does Vladimir Putin feel
:13:23. > :13:30.he can act with impunity, is it because there is not enough been
:13:31. > :13:35.doing post-Crimea to show its opposition? Europe has been SLOES.
:13:36. > :13:39.Everyone is a-- slowest. Everyone is afraid. I just said Putin is pouring
:13:40. > :13:46.gasoline on the fire and everyone else is afraid to pour some as well.
:13:47. > :13:52.The key to ending this adventure of Putin's is to make sure it will be
:13:53. > :14:00.defeated and not by British or American troops, not by Poles but
:14:01. > :14:07.Ukrainians, they have shown enormous will to fight for their integrity
:14:08. > :14:12.and territory. That was negated by Cameron, Obama a few years ago. We
:14:13. > :14:17.have serious sanctions imposed by America on the bank, defence firms,
:14:18. > :14:21.energy companie Don't exaggerate, they are minor banks and they don't
:14:22. > :14:27.affect much. Is that the problem, there hasn't been any fortitude or
:14:28. > :14:31.backbone by Europe or America? There has been a very timid response. If
:14:32. > :14:35.you think about Crimea, a whole province of Ukraine, annexed by
:14:36. > :14:40.Putin some months ago, and the only reaction was some visa restrictions
:14:41. > :14:44.and asset freezes on a couple of dozen Russians. Putin does have an
:14:45. > :14:47.Achilles heel, it is its Russian economy. If you
:14:48. > :14:48.Achilles heel, it is its Russian example how the Iranians have been
:14:49. > :14:52.brought to example how the Iranians have been
:14:53. > :14:57.nuclear programme by-election financial and banking sanction,
:14:58. > :15:00.Russia is not Iran. We have seen how the Russian stop exchange
:15:01. > :15:03.dramatically falls every time there is a threat of serious financial
:15:04. > :15:16.sanctions. Are you embarrassed by the lack of activity by Europe? Yes,
:15:17. > :15:21.absolutely. We could have done more, Putin is an opportunist, and if the
:15:22. > :15:25.west reacts in a timid way to the annexation of Crimea, it is not
:15:26. > :15:29.surprising he has been testing to see how much further he can go. Did
:15:30. > :15:33.David Cameron take his eye off the ball, was there not enough firm
:15:34. > :15:36.leadership? There is evidence that Cameron was trying to get more
:15:37. > :15:46.agreement than proved possible in the European Union, I hope that is
:15:47. > :15:50.the case. Will it be sanctions and the Russian economy be the only
:15:51. > :15:54.thing to pull Vladimir Putin away from this? If you are looking for
:15:55. > :15:58.anything from me you are knocking at the wrong door. I want to go back to
:15:59. > :16:02.the issue of Crimea, London and Washington have decided the fate of
:16:03. > :16:08.Crimea, there are two million residents of Crimea, don't they have
:16:09. > :16:13.a say. But Crimea was part of a sovereign country? Excuse me it is a
:16:14. > :16:18.very complicated issue, and we have to go back into history to resolve
:16:19. > :16:23.that. Forgive me, when Ukraine agreed to give up its nuclear
:16:24. > :16:27.weapons, as part of that agreement Russia recognised the existing
:16:28. > :16:31.borders of Ukraine, including Crimea, that has been a very
:16:32. > :16:36.dangerous thing for that now to have been abandoned. What do you think
:16:37. > :16:41.Vladimir Putin's next move will be? We are in a situation now where will
:16:42. > :16:50.the relations between the west and Vladimir Putin ever recover from
:16:51. > :16:55.this. What must he do next. I don't know I don't know what his next move
:16:56. > :16:59.will be, I hope he has gotten a taste of how things have gotten out
:17:00. > :17:02.of hand and it is reinforced by world action, not just the US and
:17:03. > :17:07.Europe, although they need to be leading this. But you know 100
:17:08. > :17:10.people heading to the international AIDS conference in Melbourne have
:17:11. > :17:15.been ruthlessly murdered in this incident. Again he's playing with
:17:16. > :17:18.fire, the fire can burn a lot of people and a lot of people need to
:17:19. > :17:25.send a message to him to back off. I don't know whether he will back off,
:17:26. > :17:29.but he must. If I may, yes it is a terrible tragedy that 300 innocent
:17:30. > :17:34.people completely having nothing to do with Ukraine at all perished in
:17:35. > :17:40.such a manner, I mean it is plausible that it was an accident,
:17:41. > :17:45.but should we forget about the 500 people that perished in Ukraine
:17:46. > :17:48.because of the military action by Ukrainian Government. We are moving
:17:49. > :17:55.off from this, we need to nail this one point that there are BUK
:17:56. > :17:58.antiaircraft launchers in Ukraine, in eastern Ukraine and they have
:17:59. > :18:06.been put there by the Russians? We don't know that. The Ukrainian army
:18:07. > :18:10.has those same BUK. Not in eastern Ukraine? According to the Russian
:18:11. > :18:14.defence ministrier there are and they were moved there in the past
:18:15. > :18:17.few days. Is there any way that Vladimir Putin can back down from
:18:18. > :18:22.this? I think he must be very worried now, up until now this has
:18:23. > :18:29.been a dispute purely involving America and Europeans, because of
:18:30. > :18:33.the destruction of the Malaysian airliner, this is a humanitarian
:18:34. > :18:36.disaster not just happening in a far away country, this is something
:18:37. > :18:43.which the whole world will be very angry about. Putin has to do
:18:44. > :18:53.something to assuage that. There may be increasing certainty about who
:18:54. > :18:59.certain traited the a-- certain perpetrated the atrocity. But should
:19:00. > :19:04.the plane will be flying over a warzone. There was a public warning
:19:05. > :19:11.that the Russian Government had been training pro--Russian separatists to
:19:12. > :19:15.have an antiaircraft capability, the use was on the west side. Add to
:19:16. > :19:20.that the fact that two Ukrainian planes, one a small transport plane,
:19:21. > :19:25.two a military plane were downed this week, should the Malaysian
:19:26. > :19:31.plane have taken another route. We are in Kuala Lumpur.
:19:32. > :19:35.I suppose if the last Malaysian Airlines strategy here four months
:19:36. > :19:38.ago was about disbelief, incomprehension, nagging doubt that
:19:39. > :19:45.the Government here might have done more. This time round in Kuala
:19:46. > :19:49.Lumpur it is different, the sense that the grief is shared around the
:19:50. > :19:52.world, and a sense that finger of blame is not pointing at them. A
:19:53. > :19:58.Government spokesman told me earlier that the route that flight MH17 and
:19:59. > :20:06.the altitude it was at were signed off at the very highest level by the
:20:07. > :20:11.international civil aviation de on Authority. They feel vindicated it
:20:12. > :20:15.was not to -- the Civil Aviation Authority, they feel vindicated it
:20:16. > :20:18.was not to blame. A curious picture is emerging, we know that Ukrainian
:20:19. > :20:22.authorities warned that airspace was dangerous, back on Monday night,
:20:23. > :20:28.when a Ukrainian transport plane was shot down. We know they put in place
:20:29. > :20:33.minimum attitude requirements of 32,000 feet. MH17 cleared those, but
:20:34. > :20:37.only just cleared them at 33,000. So questions tonight of why the
:20:38. > :20:42.airspace wasn't shut down completely when they knew the situation there
:20:43. > :20:45.to be so fraught. Questions as the unspeakable pain of what happened on
:20:46. > :21:02.Thursday is only just starting to hit home.
:21:03. > :21:07.Who would have thought these images would be so scrutinised and so
:21:08. > :21:12.filled with pain. The last moments of the passengers who three hours
:21:13. > :21:16.later would become British victims of an act of terror as bizarre as it
:21:17. > :21:19.is brutal. The names of some of those who died emerged today and
:21:20. > :21:25.their reasons for travel. The students heading off for a gap year,
:21:26. > :21:29.two Newcastle United fans on the way to watch them on a pre-seen tour.
:21:30. > :21:34.One father learning of his son's death from the club's own website.
:21:35. > :21:40.The AIDS activist joining colleagues for a key summit in Melbourne. Here
:21:41. > :21:45.at Malaysia's Kuala Lumpur Airport a sense of disbelief that lightning
:21:46. > :21:49.can strike twice, but less anger in the grief as the country more
:21:50. > :21:54.confidently points the finger of blame elsewhere. I'm told by a
:21:55. > :21:59.Malaysian Government spokesman that some three hours before flight MH17
:22:00. > :22:04.took off they sent their flight plan for approval as is customary. The
:22:05. > :22:08.plan and altitude was signed off by the Civil Aviation Authority, the
:22:09. > :22:10.international body that is in control of these things. The
:22:11. > :22:14.significance of that, says the airline, is crucial. It means the
:22:15. > :22:22.tragedy itself was not of their making. ? So the questions now turn
:22:23. > :22:28.to those who deemed the space safe. MH17 took off just after midday, by
:22:29. > :22:33.2. 15 GMT air traffic control had lost contact. Authorities, it seems,
:22:34. > :22:39.knew there was danger. On Monday Ukraine imposed a ban of flights
:22:40. > :22:43.below 32,000, MH17 had cleared the required altitude, but only by 1,000
:22:44. > :22:48.feet, it was flying at 33,000. And you have to think if they knew a
:22:49. > :22:54.rocket launcher in the area could reach 70,000 feet why wasn't the
:22:55. > :22:59.airspace banned all together. The responsibility for deciding the
:23:00. > :23:05.availability for the space used by aircraft is entirely that of each
:23:06. > :23:09.country and state. That is well established principle under the
:23:10. > :23:14.international civil aviation organisation rules and procedures.
:23:15. > :23:19.Since last Monday the 14th of July that exclusion zone, if you wish,
:23:20. > :23:24.that flights were not allowed to operate, was extended vertically fr
:23:25. > :23:29.ground up to and including 32,000 feet. Then there is the blogger who
:23:30. > :23:33.predicted it all, simply by following what was to him an evident
:23:34. > :23:38.and emerging pattern. When I looked on Tuesday morning and I wrote my
:23:39. > :23:43.blog post, by then the Russian aircrafts were bypassing the eastern
:23:44. > :23:48.Ukrainian part and were flying around the Russian broaders, so they
:23:49. > :23:58.were giving -- borders, so they were giving the area a wide berth. If it
:23:59. > :24:02.was obvious to me it should be obvious to airlines that this is
:24:03. > :24:09.getting into harm's way. There is people here with unpredictable
:24:10. > :24:13.behaviours who are in charge of sophisticated and powerful weapons
:24:14. > :24:17.systems. The analysis will not stop here, there will be claims and
:24:18. > :24:25.counter claims, blame and counter blame, and surely a change to flight
:24:26. > :24:30.procedure here on. But as the world becomes experts in the aviation
:24:31. > :24:36.flight back a single plane took, on the ground a tragedy whose scope is
:24:37. > :24:43.only beginning to unfold, many nations mourn their own dead and
:24:44. > :24:44.look to the inexplicable. As we start to get more information about
:24:45. > :24:50.what happened to start to get more information about
:24:51. > :24:56.MH17, questions are asked about why flights were able to fly over
:24:57. > :24:59.conflict areas like the Ukraine. We speak to our guest now. The
:25:00. > :25:03.Malaysians say they were doing it by the book, if they were following
:25:04. > :25:08.what they were told to do, why were they blown out of the sky? Yeah,
:25:09. > :25:14.that is a jolly good question. You know the point about this is that
:25:15. > :25:21.this is a l-worn, a well-trodden path that the aircraft do use. The
:25:22. > :25:28.shortest possible route between European airports and those airports
:25:29. > :25:35.in south-east Asia. Because of that and because of the longevity, I
:25:36. > :25:41.suppose, of the Malaysian Airlines flight in question, it had been
:25:42. > :25:44.tracking backwards and forwards across that bit of the sky for an
:25:45. > :25:50.awful long time. I suppose they felt safe to do so. If I could just bring
:25:51. > :25:54.in another couple of points, one, the Ukrainians themselves had warned
:25:55. > :25:58.there were problems and fly above 32,000, that really wasn't
:25:59. > :26:02.sufficient, we knew from the NATO Supreme Allied Commander in Europe
:26:03. > :26:08.as early as late June that there was activity, there was training for
:26:09. > :26:11.antiaircraft missile activity on the eastern side of the border, but used
:26:12. > :26:14.on the western side of the border, why did that information either not
:26:15. > :26:18.get to the authorities or get to the authorities and the authorities
:26:19. > :26:24.didn't pay any attention to it? Whose ultimate responsibility is it
:26:25. > :26:29.to decide who flies where? I guess the ultimate responsibility comes
:26:30. > :26:35.down to the international civil aviation organisation. They are the
:26:36. > :26:39.organisation that signed this entire airspace for the whole of Ukraine,
:26:40. > :26:45.including the eastern part as safe to fly in. But do they listen, but
:26:46. > :26:51.do they take into account things like NATO public warnings. Things
:26:52. > :26:55.like analysis of what's going on the ground, secret reports and so forth.
:26:56. > :27:01.How could they possibly miss this? How could they, indeed. You know,
:27:02. > :27:05.one would hope that the various safety authorities around the world
:27:06. > :27:09.do take notice of the information that's being fed to them. But
:27:10. > :27:13.evidently not in this case. I'm interested, because you are an
:27:14. > :27:18.expert, somebody will have to pay for this part of the problem, you
:27:19. > :27:21.know, in that 90 seconds, around about that, there was a Singapore
:27:22. > :27:26.flight, there was a Malaysian Airlines other flight, there was a
:27:27. > :27:34.Thai Airlines flight, it could be one of any number of flights,
:27:35. > :27:39.areofloat we understand -- Areoflot stopped flying we understand. Who
:27:40. > :27:43.has failed in their duty to stop civilian aircraft flying in this
:27:44. > :27:49.area? The answer is that it could be anyone of a number of alphabet soup
:27:50. > :27:57.of organisations that has failed in their duty of care, if you will to
:27:58. > :28:01.protect passengers who are flying in international flight. That is going
:28:02. > :28:08.to be the subject of some deep soul searching as we go forward to
:28:09. > :28:14.determine who is directly at fault in all of this tragic tragic
:28:15. > :28:19.accident. We have only got time for one short question, we know that the
:28:20. > :28:23.crash investigators have been limited to what they can do in the
:28:24. > :28:27.site. What is the key thing to look for on the site. The most important
:28:28. > :28:31.thing is the retrieval of the bodies, what will they look at to
:28:32. > :28:35.point them to what missile it was and who it belong today? Once the
:28:36. > :28:40.retrieval of the bodies has taken place, of course then evidently they
:28:41. > :28:45.are going to be looking for the two black boxes, and beyond that they
:28:46. > :28:51.will be examining the fuselage with a fine tooth comb and looking for
:28:52. > :28:57.the tell tale signs of explosives. With that they may well get an
:28:58. > :29:05.indication as to precisely what type of missile brought the aircraft out
:29:06. > :29:09.of the sky. When the Conservative manifesto for the general election
:29:10. > :29:11.is published it is likely to feature tough promises on immigration, but
:29:12. > :29:15.is fear of immigration different from the reality. Newsnight has been
:29:16. > :29:19.leaked a new Home Office report that will bear that out. But the report
:29:20. > :29:23.into the impact of immigration has been blocked and delayed because of
:29:24. > :29:29.a row between ministers over whether it paints too Rosie a picture of
:29:30. > :29:33.immigration. -- rosy a picture of immigration. There is a
:29:34. > :29:41.demonstration of a largely positive affect for business in Britain. This
:29:42. > :29:45.is our exclusive report. This was the week the Tories got
:29:46. > :29:51.tough on Europe. First a reshuffle, then a dig at the European Court of
:29:52. > :29:55.Human Rights. All red meat to the euro-sceptics, but there is a report
:29:56. > :29:59.lurking in Whitehall they will find harder to swallow. Newsnight has
:30:00. > :30:03.been leaked a confidential document which has been causing some people
:30:04. > :30:07.here at the Home Office to have kittens. It has been fought over,
:30:08. > :30:11.word by word, line by line, for the best part of a year. It should have
:30:12. > :30:18.been published months ago, why hasn't it? Because it is regarded as
:30:19. > :30:22.too pro-European. The report pulls together evidence from dozens of
:30:23. > :30:28.groups and businesses about immigration from the EU. The good
:30:29. > :30:31.and the bad. And some of it makes startling reading. The majority of
:30:32. > :30:35.EU nationals come here to work, there is no evidence that access to
:30:36. > :30:43.benefits was a significant factor in migration. European immigrants are
:30:44. > :30:47.less intense users of the social security system than UK nationals.
:30:48. > :30:52.Little hard evidence regarding problems in community cohesion as a
:30:53. > :30:56.result of EU migration. The affects are viewed as largely -- the effects
:30:57. > :31:02.are viewed as largely positive, providing a wide range of skilled
:31:03. > :31:08.labour and opportunities for workers. This report leaked has a
:31:09. > :31:14.broad support? It doesn't surprise me, there are lots of studies that
:31:15. > :31:18.show we benefit from free movement. UCL did a study to show we were
:31:19. > :31:23.billions better off, and new companies set up by migrants who
:31:24. > :31:26.employ a lot of people here. And Britons been fit from free movement
:31:27. > :31:31.to live in France, pain or wherever else. Some areas have been affected
:31:32. > :31:36.more than others by our open borders. Ealing in west London is
:31:37. > :31:38.one of them. On a boiling hot day, we asked shoppers if they were
:31:39. > :31:54.getting hot under the They come here and get the best job
:31:55. > :31:59.and go back and live a luxury life. I'm the son of an immigrant, I come
:32:00. > :32:03.from an Irish family, Britain is an immigrant-friendly country, I think.
:32:04. > :32:08.We have an inflation of eastern Europeans, especially in west London
:32:09. > :32:12.actually, and it overkilled on work flow with everybody else. For me
:32:13. > :32:19.Europe it means that people can go everywhere, for me it is a good
:32:20. > :32:24.thing. This morning I was in Paris and now I'm here, for me it is
:32:25. > :32:28.really good. The report is not one-way traffic by any means. It
:32:29. > :32:34.highlights concerns about the impact on lowly-paid British workers and on
:32:35. > :32:36.certain communities. But of the 60-odd contributors to the report,
:32:37. > :32:41.most of the negative comments come from three think-tanks,
:32:42. > :32:48.Migrationwatch, Open Europe, and Demos. The problem with complete
:32:49. > :32:52.freedom of movement is not so much the freedom of movement, it is the
:32:53. > :32:57.fact that we have this principle of nondiscrimination, which means that
:32:58. > :33:00.you have to treat all European Union citizens effectively as if they are
:33:01. > :33:03.British citizens, that is what people don't understand. Not just in
:33:04. > :33:06.Britain but throughout the European Union.
:33:07. > :33:11.Newsnight has been told the Home Office vetoed the first draft, and
:33:12. > :33:15.rewrote it. This version horrified Liberal Democrats and they insisted
:33:16. > :33:20.civil servants hammer out the final text. That was completed months ago.
:33:21. > :33:24.Unfortunately this is something that has happened time and time again,
:33:25. > :33:27.when there are studies which the Home Office has done which say the
:33:28. > :33:30.opposite of what the Home Secretary would like them to say, there is a
:33:31. > :33:33.tendency of them not coming out promptly I can understand why for
:33:34. > :33:36.political reasons the Conservatives didn't want the facts to come out
:33:37. > :33:40.before the European election, but we should make our policies based on
:33:41. > :33:44.the fact that reports like this should come out promptly. This
:33:45. > :33:48.review has stoked the debate, and it isn't even out yet. After months of
:33:49. > :33:56.sitting on the shelf, the Home Office now says the report will be
:33:57. > :33:59.published shortly. I spoke to the Business Secretary,
:34:00. > :34:02.Vince Cable earlier today, I asked him how he explained the fact that
:34:03. > :34:07.this report hadn't come out yet, even though there was a copy ready
:34:08. > :34:11.in December? There was a disagreement in Government as to how
:34:12. > :34:15.to do this, there was a draft that came through the Home Office that
:34:16. > :34:28.was frankly rather one-sided. We disagreed with the content and I
:34:29. > :34:31.thought it was propagandaist, we went back to the drawing board and
:34:32. > :34:36.it now acknowledges there are some problems with the free movement and
:34:37. > :34:40.impact on service, many of the studies quoted show it is economic
:34:41. > :34:45.benefit to the UK. Were you intimately involved in, as it were,
:34:46. > :34:49.the reversioning of it? I was involved. And indeed there was a lot
:34:50. > :34:54.of working across Government to make sure that what emerged reflected the
:34:55. > :34:57.different views of people within the Government across the coalition and
:34:58. > :35:02.different ministers. I think what has emerged is a balanced and
:35:03. > :35:08.sensible product. But, you are actually supporting a Government
:35:09. > :35:12.that is actively, as it were, trying to say that there are problems with
:35:13. > :35:17.immigration? This is about free movement within the, it is not about
:35:18. > :35:21.the wide -- within the European Union, it is not about the wider
:35:22. > :35:26.implication, there are different views about it. You don't see the
:35:27. > :35:31.irony in colluding and shoring up legislation that goes entirely
:35:32. > :35:35.against your own argument? It is not a collusion, we have to compromise
:35:36. > :35:39.so we can function. Immigration is a difficult area where there are very
:35:40. > :35:42.different views in Government. Ranging from people who would want a
:35:43. > :35:47.complete clampdown ranging to others with a much more open and liberal
:35:48. > :35:53.approach. My job within Government is to argue the business case and
:35:54. > :36:00.also nor -- for universities and higher education. All the evidence
:36:01. > :36:03.we have is the contribution immigrants make is positive, and we
:36:04. > :36:09.have won that argument. The Liberal Democrats are not without a locust
:36:10. > :36:12.in this debate in an area that presumably you wouldn't agree with,
:36:13. > :36:17.which was when Nick Clegg brought up the idea of migrant bonds. It was
:36:18. > :36:21.dropped, it is not happening. Do you regret the fact it was even brought
:36:22. > :36:26.up? There is no harm in raising ideas. It was tested out and felt
:36:27. > :36:31.not to be a good idea and we're not sur suing it, I'm pleased with that
:36:32. > :36:35.because it has raised a reaction in countries where we want more
:36:36. > :36:41.visitors. How comfortable can you be, being within a coalition whose
:36:42. > :36:46.mood music is one of problems with immigration, problems for
:36:47. > :36:48.communities, and so forth, in a sense you where standing
:36:49. > :36:54.shoulder-to-shoulder with other members of this Government who put
:36:55. > :36:59.an entirely different spin on this? The coalition is a buys-like
:37:00. > :37:02.relationship to provide stable Government and deal with the
:37:03. > :37:06.financial crisis. That is why we got into it and it works well on that
:37:07. > :37:10.level. When you take about mood music this is the public mood music,
:37:11. > :37:15.there is anxiety from the general public, that is where we start from.
:37:16. > :37:19.It is a perfectly legitimate objective of both sides to reassure
:37:20. > :37:23.the public that migration is properly under control. I sign up
:37:24. > :37:27.for that. Statement, given my job and also as a Liberal Democrat in
:37:28. > :37:30.Government, I want to argue the case for the single market within the
:37:31. > :37:35.European Union which is beneficial to the UK. It is true, of course,
:37:36. > :37:38.that you have taken a very particular stand on immigration for
:37:39. > :37:42.a long time. That has been your watchword. But on the whole question
:37:43. > :37:46.of something like the spare room subsidy, right from the beginning
:37:47. > :37:50.you know you supported the idea of the spare room subsidy, but right
:37:51. > :37:54.from the beginning Ed Miliband was saying this was vicious, and it has
:37:55. > :37:59.taken a report to come out before the Liberal Democrats will stand up
:38:00. > :38:03.and say now we don't believe in it. On that particular one the issue was
:38:04. > :38:06.not so much about the principle but how it was applied in an environment
:38:07. > :38:11.where there simply wasn't a great deal of scope for people to downsize
:38:12. > :38:14.rooms and it required the emergence of hard evidence. At the last party
:38:15. > :38:20.conference the Liberal Democrats made it very clear as a party we did
:38:21. > :38:26.not agree with the way the spare room subsidy was working. This isn't
:38:27. > :38:31.something that has happened forth week, we have been clear for -- this
:38:32. > :38:35.week, we have been clear we have been believing in that for a long
:38:36. > :39:03.time and how we want to do it. Time for the front pages.
:39:04. > :39:09.That's it from us, we leave you with a few of the amazing photographs,
:39:10. > :39:12.amateur and professional of the lightning storms that kept half the
:39:13. > :39:13.country awake last night. We hope you sleep better tonight. Good
:39:14. > :40:05.night. Hello, more thunderstorms
:40:06. > :40:09.congression the UK, more vie -- crossing the UK. It will be a stormy
:40:10. > :40:11.Saturday as well, heavy downpours