:00:13. > :00:14.bearing the bodies of the survivors of flight MH17 and the black box
:00:15. > :00:24.will be handed to investigators. where Russian separatist are
:00:25. > :00:27.creating chaos. The They are saying they are not terrorists, and
:00:28. > :00:33.peaceful people are dying. We will hear from the Russianle garage all
:00:34. > :00:37.sander Levadev. The Prime Minister says Europe must confront Vladimir
:00:38. > :00:41.Putin. If he doesn't change his approach to Ukraine in this way,
:00:42. > :00:49.then Europe and the west must fundamentally change our approach to
:00:50. > :00:54.Russia. Despite his insistence that the UK has stopped selling weapons
:00:55. > :01:01.to Russia, Newsnight have found some weapons are still for sale. We have
:01:02. > :01:08.found that British arms dealers are licensed to sell to Russia.
:01:09. > :01:12.Is our passion for on-demand TV killing the middle brow shows we
:01:13. > :01:16.used to like. I almost pity him. The proms have come to Newsnight, we
:01:17. > :01:39.begin our own special season. Good evening, the UN Security
:01:40. > :01:43.Council has tonight unanimously adopted a resolution calling for
:01:44. > :01:47.investigators to be given safe and unrestricted access to the site
:01:48. > :01:52.where flight MH17 crashed in eastern Ukraine. So, Russia voted in favour.
:01:53. > :01:57.Will the separatist rebels, thought to be behind this shooting down of
:01:58. > :02:01.the plane genuinely agree to a safe? Today the train carrying many of the
:02:02. > :02:06.dead headed out, where they will be handed over to the Dutch shorts, and
:02:07. > :02:09.there is still chaos and danger near the crash site and nearby Donetsk,
:02:10. > :02:19.where there have been violent clashes today. We're there. It is
:02:20. > :02:26.after midnight in Donetsk, a curfew is in force and a number of armed
:02:27. > :02:29.men with guns have appeared at an impromptu checkpoint behind me. From
:02:30. > :02:34.around the morning we saw heavy shelling inbetween the raily station
:02:35. > :02:38.and the airport, between apparently u-- railway station and the airport.
:02:39. > :02:42.Apparently between Ukrainian forces and the rebels. This carried on
:02:43. > :02:45.throughout the day, I have been hearing the thumps of shells and
:02:46. > :02:49.mortars into the evening. I have to say it has gone quiet a little bit
:02:50. > :02:52.in the last few hours. This happened on day when lots of other things
:02:53. > :02:56.were happening. We have just seen chaotic scenes of a hotel here in
:02:57. > :02:59.Donetsk, with negotiations between Malaysian officials and the rebels
:03:00. > :03:04.over possession of the black boxes, the flight data recorders from that
:03:05. > :03:08.flight. They are, I understand, at the moment still in the possession
:03:09. > :03:12.of the rebels, but negotiations were under way to hand them over. As you
:03:13. > :03:17.said, the train carrying nearly all of the bodies from that flight now
:03:18. > :03:20.finally on the move back towards Ukrainian-held territory. Again we
:03:21. > :03:26.are not quite sure when it might get there. So a very, very busy day on
:03:27. > :03:30.the day that the UN called for safe access to these experts and safe was
:03:31. > :03:34.far from what it was. In the report that we have compiled for you today,
:03:35. > :03:40.you will see some images that some viewers may find distressing.
:03:41. > :03:46.It is four days since the crash, international experts have arrived,
:03:47. > :03:49.and are investigating. But this is still warzone.
:03:50. > :03:55.This morning at least one more civilian would fall victim to this
:03:56. > :04:06.vicious conflict. We're on our way to the crash site when our driver
:04:07. > :04:08.gets a panicked phone call. This is his 13-year-old daughter on the
:04:09. > :04:13.phone and crying and saying the house has just been bombed. We head
:04:14. > :04:23.back into town. Nervous rebels have sealed off the area around the
:04:24. > :04:31.railway station. Suddenly shots ring out. There is some shooting going on
:04:32. > :04:36.now. Not quite clear what's happening, but there is some very
:04:37. > :04:43.agitated men on the road there. Some of them with guns. Around the back
:04:44. > :04:49.of the station the rebels have taken up position. We can hear t faint
:04:50. > :04:52.thud of mortars or shells landing, there is battle going on somewhere
:04:53. > :05:00.between here and the airport, which is held by Government forces. He
:05:01. > :05:09.says we are not terrorists dying but peaceful people dying. You can hear
:05:10. > :05:13.more shelling going on now. Just around the corn certificate a block
:05:14. > :05:16.of flats, several rockets have hitter, residents tell us,
:05:17. > :05:21.shattering windows. Then we see the crater, the first victim, a woman,
:05:22. > :05:26.she looks to be in her 40s or early 50s, she must have been crossing the
:05:27. > :05:30.yard when the rocket struck. This is as are relation block, we don't know
:05:31. > :05:34.where -- residential block, we don't know where the rockets or shells
:05:35. > :05:38.came from, but these people are civilian, we can hear the shelling
:05:39. > :05:42.going on periodically as we speak. Over the weekend emergency service
:05:43. > :05:47.workers, under the direction of armed rebels, began collecting
:05:48. > :05:50.bodies from the crash site in the fields east of Donetsk. In the
:05:51. > :05:55.summer heat, they say, they had no choice, they couldn't wait for the
:05:56. > :06:00.international inspectors to arrive. But the west has accused them of
:06:01. > :06:09.tampering with the evidence. What exactly are they trying to hide
:06:10. > :06:15.Barack Obama asked today. This 77-year-old woman saw the plane come
:06:16. > :06:19.out of the sky. It narrowly missed obliterating her village when one of
:06:20. > :06:24.the wings lands metres from her home. There was a huge explosion
:06:25. > :06:28.when it fell, and she thought they were bombing them. She lived through
:06:29. > :06:35.the Second World War, but she has never seen anything like this.
:06:36. > :06:39.Mostly eyewitnesses give us few firm clues about what actually happened.
:06:40. > :06:41.Some say they saw fighter jets in the sky, just before the Boeing
:06:42. > :06:46.crashed, imflying that perhaps the rare liner was brought down by the
:06:47. > :06:50.Ukrainian air force. The Ukrainians say this is utter nonsense, the
:06:51. > :06:54.country's head of counter intelligence told us he knew the
:06:55. > :06:59.rebels had got their hands on a powerful Russian missile system,
:07:00. > :07:08.known as Buk, three days before MH17 was shot down. The first information
:07:09. > :07:15.that we got was July 14th, the first intelligence we possessed about the
:07:16. > :07:18.BukM one missile launchers going directly to Ukraine, but we couldn't
:07:19. > :07:25.confirm that information. From Russia? Yes. The terrorists when
:07:26. > :07:32.they find out the remains of the plane and the bodies, the terrorists
:07:33. > :07:36.tried to hide the Buk, all the Buk M 1s that were on the territory in
:07:37. > :07:45.Ukraine. Early in the morning July 18, two Buk M1s trespass illegally
:07:46. > :07:50.again on the Russian border going back to Russia. Two hours later at
:07:51. > :07:55.4.00am one more missile launcher went to Russia. So to your knowledge
:07:56. > :07:59.there are now at the moment in the hands of the rebels or the
:08:00. > :08:00.there are now at the moment in the mercenaries as you call them, there
:08:01. > :08:04.are no such missile systems in their are no such missile systems in their
:08:05. > :08:09.hands? I can't tell they have none. We know three of them went back to
:08:10. > :08:15.Russia. But they might have more? Probably, Russia provides weapons to
:08:16. > :08:18.the rebels on the territory of Ukraine, it is no a Civil War. It is
:08:19. > :08:22.not the rebels, these are mercenaries and terrorists. Are your
:08:23. > :08:28.allies in the west doing enough to support Ukraine? Yes. There is
:08:29. > :08:31.nothing more they can do? They can do more, but they support Ukraine,
:08:32. > :08:35.definitely. In the field of intelligence you are getting the
:08:36. > :08:43.support you need? To some extent. Not quite? Not quite. What more
:08:44. > :08:49.would you like? More intelligence. If indeed pro-Russian rebels with
:08:50. > :08:54.help from Moscow shot down MH17, then why? A possible answer is to be
:08:55. > :09:03.found here in the small town not far from the crash site. Last week a
:09:04. > :09:04.local rebel commander told me the Ukrainian air force bombed this
:09:05. > :09:08.residential block. It was early in Ukrainian air force bombed this
:09:09. > :09:18.the morning, people were at home, some maybe in the bathroom or having
:09:19. > :09:22.their breakfast. 11 people died. TRANSLATION: The air force use
:09:23. > :09:25.civilian aircraft as cover, it is their tactic, they have only just
:09:26. > :09:31.stopped flying over the area, before the crash they did it all the time.
:09:32. > :09:35.He says the rebels don't possess a missile capable of reaching such a
:09:36. > :09:41.height, if they did he says... TRANSLATION: If we knew they weren't
:09:42. > :09:45.civilian we would shoot them. The mystery of how MH17 dropped out of
:09:46. > :09:52.the sky remains locked in claim and counter claim. The investigators now
:09:53. > :09:59.begin their work in earnest, the stakes could hardly be higher.
:10:00. > :10:05.I spoke a little earlier tonight to the Russian oligarch who owns the
:10:06. > :10:09.independent Evening Standard newspapers and the Independent
:10:10. > :10:12.Newspaper, as well as a newspaper in Russia. I asked him how dangerous he
:10:13. > :10:26.considered the current situation to be? It has been compared already by
:10:27. > :10:29.the media to the issues in 1914 that triggered the First World War. And
:10:30. > :10:36.the Prime Minister of Russia compared it to the beginnings of the
:10:37. > :10:41.80s, I think the beginning of the 80s both sides Russia and the west
:10:42. > :10:47.contained each other. The last real war dated back to 1956 in Hungary.
:10:48. > :10:51.If some of the estimates are right, then the loss of life, the
:10:52. > :10:56.casualties in the Ukraine has already counted in thousands rather
:10:57. > :11:03.than hundreds. What should happen next? I think for the time being
:11:04. > :11:05.both sides should probably put aside mutual recriminations and think what
:11:06. > :11:11.can be done to dissolve the situation. I doubt anybody in
:11:12. > :11:15.Moscow, in Washington, Europe or the Ukraine would have any doubts that
:11:16. > :11:20.the situation is so serious, it couldn't be more serious than it is.
:11:21. > :11:23.So we probably are standing at the brink of more hostilities, but for
:11:24. > :11:30.example if western sanctions really are transferred into sectoral and
:11:31. > :11:34.technological break on technology transfer to Russia, and clearly
:11:35. > :11:37.Russia is much more dependant on foreign technology than the Soviet
:11:38. > :11:42.Union used to be. If Europe stopped over a period of say two years to
:11:43. > :11:45.import Russian raw materials there will be a big price to pay for
:11:46. > :11:50.Russia, but also for Europe, and also for the United States. But we
:11:51. > :11:55.know that America has imposed tough sanctions, tomorrow European leaders
:11:56. > :11:59.will meet and be asked to impose tough sanctions. Is it time for
:12:00. > :12:04.tough sanctions on Russia, on Vladimir Putin? I would rather
:12:05. > :12:08.suggest visa versa, for at least some period of time. Because the
:12:09. > :12:12.more sanctions that are being put against Russia the more Russia would
:12:13. > :12:17.probably defend itself in its own way. It is not a right solution.
:12:18. > :12:22.Until recently the sanctions were more lip service, which is putting a
:12:23. > :12:25.threat and expecting that Russia would accommodate anybody. I think
:12:26. > :12:28.it is the wrong approach. Both sides, for some time, until they
:12:29. > :12:32.really understand that they have failed to find a solution and
:12:33. > :12:35.compromise should really put the sanctions and mutual threats and
:12:36. > :12:39.recriminations and other hostile actions on the side, on the shelf.
:12:40. > :12:44.Doesn't Vladimir Putin have to understand that the actions that he
:12:45. > :12:47.has taken in eastern Ukraine are unacceptable and surely the only
:12:48. > :12:51.reason you are saying that sanctions don't work and aren't visible is
:12:52. > :12:55.that you are a -- advisable is that you are a wealthy businessman who
:12:56. > :13:02.still has interests in Russia? Let's put it this way, if you carry on
:13:03. > :13:06.discussions in such a way that Vladimir Putin is responsible for
:13:07. > :13:11.all of that I don't think we can reach any solution at all. So we
:13:12. > :13:14.should probably both sides should accept a completely different
:13:15. > :13:18.attitude. At least for some time the terms should be made. Probably the
:13:19. > :13:23.Kremlin should appoint somebody very influential, but non-hawkish to try
:13:24. > :13:27.to deal with it and Europe and the United States should also try to
:13:28. > :13:31.accommodate Russia the way Russia would like to be seen in the process
:13:32. > :13:38.of negotiations, rather than cornering it. Because the more both
:13:39. > :13:44.sides come up with anomosities the less chances we have -- anomosities
:13:45. > :13:49.the less solutions there will be. Are you saying that we could
:13:50. > :13:54.sleepwalk into war, is that what you are saying, there is a possibility?
:13:55. > :14:03.Of the more building up into much more serious conflict? Yeah, yeah,
:14:04. > :14:07.yeah. If we are right that both sides the separatist and the
:14:08. > :14:11.Ukrainian army and the civilians have lost 10,000 lives, it is war
:14:12. > :14:14.already. If it goes further on I wonder if that can be stopped by
:14:15. > :14:20.anybody of becoming a bigger conflict. Under certain
:14:21. > :14:25.circumstance, I mean I wouldn't probably exclude any events being
:14:26. > :14:31.evolved. For example certain troops crossing certain borders, why not,
:14:32. > :14:34.it is possible, it depends what is going to happen, this is what
:14:35. > :14:42.happened before and this is what it led to, to millions of lives being
:14:43. > :14:46.lost without any reason. Addressing the Commons today ahead
:14:47. > :14:50.of tomorrow's meeting of European leaders, David Cameron said Russia
:14:51. > :14:54.cannot expect access to European markets and capital while it fuels a
:14:55. > :14:58.conflict in Ukraine, and called for future military sales to Russia from
:14:59. > :15:03.any country in Europe to stop. The PM said that we have already stopped
:15:04. > :15:07.such sales from Britain, but, Newsnight has learned that almost
:15:08. > :15:11.300 licenses remain in place permitting the sales of item,
:15:12. > :15:15.including sniper rifles and body armour. The Government says those
:15:16. > :15:20.exports are OK because the weapons are not for military use. But
:15:21. > :15:27.crickets say controls must be tight -- critics say controls must be
:15:28. > :15:31.tightened up. Not since the Cold War have relations between Russia and
:15:32. > :15:37.the west been so strained. The problem for the west is this man,
:15:38. > :15:44.President Putin. Long before the outrage of the downing of flight
:15:45. > :15:50.MH17, the UK had prided itself in leading international condemnation
:15:51. > :15:55.of Mr Putin's Russia. In March the UK announced a ban on any exports of
:15:56. > :16:00.UK equipment to Moscow. The UK with immediate effect will suspend all
:16:01. > :16:05.application licenses and procession of licenses for direct export to
:16:06. > :16:08.Russia for military and dual use items destined for units of the
:16:09. > :16:13.Russian Armed Forces or other state agencies, which could be or are
:16:14. > :16:19.being deployed against Ukraine. It sounds watertight. But Newsnight has
:16:20. > :16:24.discovered this list. It details how Britain is still exporting equipment
:16:25. > :16:30.worth ?132 million, that in the wrong hands could be used for
:16:31. > :16:36.military purposes. Newsnight can reveal 34 witnesses worth nearly ?40
:16:37. > :16:41.million were suspended or revoked, but another 297 licenses are still
:16:42. > :16:45.life. This is for so called dual use equipment that could have a military
:16:46. > :16:49.or commercial purpose. The list refers to Assault Rifles, body
:16:50. > :16:53.armour and sniper rifles. So, could this end up in their hands? No. The
:16:54. > :16:57.UK Government says this end up in their hands? No. The
:16:58. > :17:05.solely for business use. There is one license that stands out, it
:17:06. > :17:10.includes, among other things... Components or air-launched rockets,
:17:11. > :17:13.components or air-to-air missile, components for surface-to-air
:17:14. > :17:18.missile, components for aircraft canons, components orator paedos. It
:17:19. > :17:26.might sound like a line from a novel, but the Government insists
:17:27. > :17:30.this material is not that use, it is meant for the repairs to the
:17:31. > :17:37.Brazilian Navy. Confused? You won't be alone. MPs are too. In the light
:17:38. > :17:45.of what Mr Putin and Russia have been doing it seems extraordinary we
:17:46. > :17:50.should going on selling to them these things. It is time to stop all
:17:51. > :17:53.licenses for military equipment or dual use equipment to Russia. Once
:17:54. > :17:57.you make that equipment available you have absolutely no control over
:17:58. > :18:01.what it is used, or where it goes, and for all we know, some of that
:18:02. > :18:03.what it is used, or where it goes, equipment might have finished up in
:18:04. > :18:10.the hands of the dissidents or might do so in future. Last week's
:18:11. > :18:13.Farnborough Air Show was a show base for weapons manufacturers, but
:18:14. > :18:17.Newsnight understands a Parliamentary Committee will raise
:18:18. > :18:22.fresh concerns about the trade this Wednesday. Their report will urge
:18:23. > :18:25.ministers to explain, in detail, why Britain is selling military
:18:26. > :18:30.equipment to Russia, which is on a Foreign Office list of human rights
:18:31. > :18:35.abusers. We are relying on trust really? We are relying on trust and
:18:36. > :18:38.trust with dictators, we are relying on Government that is abuse human
:18:39. > :18:41.rights on a daily basis, not the sort of Government West should be
:18:42. > :18:45.doing business with. The Government insist it has never exported
:18:46. > :18:53.missiles or missile parts to the Russian military, and has suspended
:18:54. > :18:58.all licenses for equipment that could be used against the Ukraine.
:18:59. > :19:04.It says the UK aims to operate one of the most robust arms control
:19:05. > :19:09.systems in the world. Joining me now a Russian specialist and fellow at
:19:10. > :19:13.St Anthony's College, and from Washington a former permanent
:19:14. > :19:16.representative to NATO. We're also joined by our economics
:19:17. > :19:21.correspondent, who has been looking at the economicisms available for
:19:22. > :19:32.hitting Putin where it hurts. First of all, what could Europe agree to
:19:33. > :19:41.do tomorrow that will hit Russia tomorrow. They could copy US
:19:42. > :19:49.sanctions, they have banned several large important Russian companies
:19:50. > :19:53.from getting loans in the US. It has an impact and on the perceived
:19:54. > :20:00.investment in Russia. The US is different to the UK in terms of
:20:01. > :20:03.business ties and direct trade, it is more integrated into the Russian
:20:04. > :20:07.economy. Europe has the potential to inflict a lot more economic pain on
:20:08. > :20:12.Russia, but the other side of that it is more painful for Europe to
:20:13. > :20:17.take these sorts of steps. But one investor I was talking to today said
:20:18. > :20:21.many people have the risks wrong. They are perreceiving the risks that
:20:22. > :20:27.Europe puts in place tough sanctions and Russia responds and it hits the
:20:28. > :20:32.European economy. He says the bigger risk is Europe doesn't put the
:20:33. > :20:36.sanctions in, and Russia thinks it has immunity to carry on behaving
:20:37. > :20:43.the way it is. Without sanctions there would be no break on Putin's
:20:44. > :20:46.behaviour? Sanctions are actually resorted to when you don't know what
:20:47. > :20:50.else to do. We are at that point now. How to leverage Putin to
:20:51. > :20:55.deliver on what he said this morning he would do, hold him to his word.
:20:56. > :21:00.He said he would make sure there was a tough investigation and he said he
:21:01. > :21:04.would bring the separatist to the table. So sanctions, but carefully
:21:05. > :21:08.calibrated sanctions might be the way to make it credible as a threat
:21:09. > :21:12.to make him do what he says he will do. Would you accept that the
:21:13. > :21:18.American sanctions put in place quickly might be something that
:21:19. > :21:20.means they actually voted at the UN Security Council for full
:21:21. > :21:23.investigation. It might be those sanctions are working already?
:21:24. > :21:27.Difficult to say. I think they had an interest in showing that they are
:21:28. > :21:29.co-operative in terms of international organisations and
:21:30. > :21:34.international law. So we want to hold them to their own words really.
:21:35. > :21:39.Do you take Duncan's analysis that it is actually tougher in a way for
:21:40. > :21:42.Europe to impose sanctions the same way that America does, because it is
:21:43. > :21:48.going to hit Europe where it won't hit America? Well I take his
:21:49. > :21:51.analysis in both piece which, is yes there is going to be a greater
:21:52. > :21:55.impact on Europe than there is on the United States from the same set
:21:56. > :21:59.of sanction, but also that the impact of Europe on not doing that
:22:00. > :22:07.is also greater than putting in place the sanctions. I think that we
:22:08. > :22:13.have had six months now of Russia fermenting in the Ukraine, they have
:22:14. > :22:17.seen the arms and others across the border and if not provide them
:22:18. > :22:21.directly there are lots of reports of Russian Intelligence Services
:22:22. > :22:24.being in Ukraine already. Putin is not paying attention to our doing
:22:25. > :22:27.nothing. It is important to step forward with tougher sanctions to
:22:28. > :22:36.give the Russians a reason to try to negotiate back from that again. But,
:22:37. > :22:41.of course, for example take Ross Rosnef, 20% is owned by BP, there is
:22:42. > :22:47.a feeling that Europe will not move in the direction that America wants
:22:48. > :22:55.it to move, what is the impact of that? Putin has disregarded the
:22:56. > :22:59.western pleas to stop supporting the violence, he has sent signals to
:23:00. > :23:02.cool temperatures saying we will co-operate with the investigation,
:23:03. > :23:07.we don't have full control over these rebels, we will do our part.
:23:08. > :23:10.In the hopes that Tuesday's meeting of the EU foreign ministers blows
:23:11. > :23:14.past without any significant steps. And meanwhile he will then see that
:23:15. > :23:17.the west is not serious about putting in place any measure that is
:23:18. > :23:22.will hit Russia and therefore continue on the lines of
:23:23. > :23:26.destablising Ukraine and trying to cement Russian influence over these
:23:27. > :23:30.territories. As he has been doing already. We kind of take Crimea as
:23:31. > :23:38.just a matter of fact now, we don't even think about the fact that
:23:39. > :23:41.Crimea might be an infringement on a sovereign state. Isn't there a
:23:42. > :23:45.danger if we don't back up the American sanctions that Putin will
:23:46. > :23:50.feel he can stay in eastern Ukraine? The danger is if sanctions become a
:23:51. > :23:54.strategy of themselves without being hooked into a programme, a road map
:23:55. > :23:59.if you want, of a political kind they will not be effective. You
:24:00. > :24:03.think he wants way out? He wants a way out a political solution to the
:24:04. > :24:06.problem, and he wants to do it around the table with him at the
:24:07. > :24:10.table as well as Ukraine and the EU. Thank you very much indeed.
:24:11. > :24:13.Barack Obama has sent his Secretary of State, John Kerry, to Egypt
:24:14. > :24:17.tonight to try to achieve the UN Security Council call for an
:24:18. > :24:21.immediate cessation of hostilities between Israel and Hamas. Today's
:24:22. > :24:24.violence brought the number of Palestinians killed to more than 500
:24:25. > :24:27.according to Palestinian official, but Israel has said that seven of
:24:28. > :24:33.its soldiers have been killed in the past 24 hours, bringing the number
:24:34. > :24:36.of Israeli military dead to 25, along with two Israeli civilians who
:24:37. > :24:41.have also died since the ground invasion. A few moments ago I spoke
:24:42. > :24:45.to our international correspondent in Gaza City.
:24:46. > :24:50.Today across the Gaza strip was a day pretty much like every other day
:24:51. > :24:59.since the military escalation began two weeks ago. Despite what Israel
:25:00. > :25:04.has strategic objective, it wants the rockets fired into Israel and
:25:05. > :25:08.destroy the infrastructure of Hamas, but today civilians are paying a
:25:09. > :25:11.heavy price. We went today to a hospital not targeted at a time of
:25:12. > :25:19.war, doctors were killed and patients killed in their bed when
:25:20. > :25:22.tank shells slammed right into the intensive care unit at one of the
:25:23. > :25:28.main hospitals. A building collapsed in central Gaza tonight, at least 11
:25:29. > :25:31.people are dead. That is why there are urgent calls for a cease-fire.
:25:32. > :25:38.Every would-be mediator you could imagine is in the region. Ban
:25:39. > :25:42.Ki-Moon, Secretary of State, John Kerry has arrived in Cairo. Look
:25:43. > :25:46.across this region and what a troubled region t all the crises,
:25:47. > :25:48.all the taut lines go through Gaza such that when Secretary Kerry sits
:25:49. > :25:52.down to do his work, such that when Secretary Kerry sits
:25:53. > :25:55.take some time, he first has to establish who is doing what?
:25:56. > :26:00.take some time, he first has to about all the mediators from Doha to
:26:01. > :26:05.Istanbul, to Cairo to Washington, none of them have the sway to bring
:26:06. > :26:11.this crisis to an end, who has the most power and who is talking to
:26:12. > :26:16.who? It is a very complicated situation, and all the while the
:26:17. > :26:24.military situation gets worse and so does the humanitarian crisis year.
:26:25. > :26:32.-- here. What are both sides of the conflict. This film contains some
:26:33. > :26:37.distressing it images. Amid the rubble and ever-mounting death toll
:26:38. > :26:45.that is the Gaza conflict, a small snapshot of life endured by its
:26:46. > :26:49.inhabitants. The boy in the green T-shirt has been shot in the hand by
:26:50. > :27:00.a sniper. They discuss how to save them, but then more shots and he
:27:01. > :27:03.dies. The dead toll amongst Gaza's population has been horrific, over
:27:04. > :27:08.500 in recent days. Mostly civilians. If anything casualties
:27:09. > :27:16.have intensified there since Israeli forces advanced into Gaza on
:27:17. > :27:20.Thursday. And yet still Hamas militants keep firing their rockets
:27:21. > :27:23.at Israel, targeting civilian, ignoring calls for a cease-fire.
:27:24. > :27:31.This one was intercepted by an Israeli missile, but over 2,000 have
:27:32. > :27:37.been launched so far. TRANSLATION: We can't go back to the silent death
:27:38. > :27:41.of the blockade, Gaza has decided to end the blockade by its blood and
:27:42. > :27:48.courage, this unjust siege must be lifted. And Israel too is taking
:27:49. > :27:53.casualties, not as many, with 27 to date, all but two of them soldiers.
:27:54. > :27:56.Enough to shock the small country, but so far this military operation
:27:57. > :28:04.appears to have the nation's support. Calls by world leaders for
:28:05. > :28:10.it to stop are not being heeded. The violence must stop, it must stop
:28:11. > :28:18.now. All sides must provide the necessary space to aid the victims
:28:19. > :28:24.and wounded. Gaza is one of the most densely populated pieces of land in
:28:25. > :28:28.the world, almost two million people crammed into 140 square miles. Hence
:28:29. > :28:31.the very high rate of casualties amongst civilian, it is largely
:28:32. > :28:35.blockaded from the outside world. Within the teeming back streets,
:28:36. > :28:40.Hamas still has thousands of rockets, some of them capable of
:28:41. > :28:43.reaching as far as Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. What is upsetting the
:28:44. > :28:46.Israelis are the tunnels, some of them are used for storing weapons,
:28:47. > :28:51.others for tunnelling under the border, to allow Palestinian
:28:52. > :28:55.militants to raid inside Israel. We understand with tens of tunnels that
:28:56. > :28:58.are possibly there, and with the 16 that we have already found, it can
:28:59. > :29:02.take some time. We have the patience to deal with it, we have the man
:29:03. > :29:06.power to deal with it. We have the expertise to deal with it. We have
:29:07. > :29:13.exploded and detonated five of those tunnels today. Israeli troops are
:29:14. > :29:21.locating more of Hamas's secret tunnels every day now. They set
:29:22. > :29:26.charges and blow them up. This is what they came into Gaza to do, at a
:29:27. > :29:32.heavy cost for both sides. But unless Israel plans on permanently
:29:33. > :29:39.reoccupying Gaza, the militants may just dig new ones when the Israelis
:29:40. > :29:42.leave. There is a mounting flurry of diplomatic shuttling between
:29:43. > :29:46.capitals to get the fighting stopped. It now has to be our focus
:29:47. > :29:49.and the focus of the international community to bring about a
:29:50. > :29:54.cease-fire that ends the fighting, and that can stop the deaths of
:29:55. > :29:59.innocent civilians. The US Secretary of State has been lending his
:30:00. > :30:05.weight, so far with limited effec Neither side yet feels it has
:30:06. > :30:08.achieved its objectives. Hamas rejected the cease-fire proposal
:30:09. > :30:12.from Egypt last week, it is pushing for a permanent lifting of the
:30:13. > :30:16.blockade from Gaza. But Hamas is a relatively weakened, isolated force,
:30:17. > :30:21.it has lost a lot of friends and allies around the region, notably
:30:22. > :30:24.Syria and the previous Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. So now it will
:30:25. > :30:28.be looking a way out of this conflict. The Egyptians are not in a
:30:29. > :30:34.strong position to mediate with Hamas because they are seen as part
:30:35. > :30:39.of the problem rather than part of the solution. The Qataris have a
:30:40. > :30:44.potential and the Turk have a potential. But the elephant in the
:30:45. > :30:48.room is Iran, who is supplying Hamas with the arms. This is the worst
:30:49. > :30:53.bout of fighting between Israel and the Palestinian militants of Hamas
:30:54. > :30:57.in five years. Even if and when a cease-fire is agreed, it will only
:30:58. > :31:04.be just that, a cease-fire. Not a lasting peace deal. That prospect
:31:05. > :31:10.now seems further away than ever. Now we can speak to the Deputy
:31:11. > :31:13.Speaker in the Knesset, and a member of Israel's Labour Party. He's in
:31:14. > :31:20.Jerusalem. Here in the studio with me is the Israeli author and
:31:21. > :31:28.academic. First of all, the history of the conflict between Israel and
:31:29. > :31:34.Hamas is that nobody wins. Yet you and it appears the majority of the
:31:35. > :31:37.Israeli people back the ground invasion? It is not natural in the
:31:38. > :31:41.Israeli opposition of the Labour Party to support, to give back
:31:42. > :31:45.support to Prime Minister Netenyahu, but we are supporting him on the
:31:46. > :31:48.ground invasion to Gaza on this whole operation, because Israel came
:31:49. > :31:54.to a point when we don't have a choice. We have a brutal, very, very
:31:55. > :31:58.bad terror organisation that we have to deal with, that shooting
:31:59. > :32:03.thousands of rockets on women and children on the south of Israel and
:32:04. > :32:07.to Tel Aviv and even north of Tel Aviv, and the Israelis deserve to
:32:08. > :32:10.have blue skies free of rockets as any other country in the world. This
:32:11. > :32:14.is why we in the Labour Party, the entire Knesset members, I think,
:32:15. > :32:19.support the Prime Minister, support the IDF, our soldiers, they were
:32:20. > :32:23.killed just night, that going in on an mission to save the lives of the
:32:24. > :32:26.Israeli people, because this is the reality we are having, this is the
:32:27. > :32:30.reality we are having since the establishment of Israel. We are
:32:31. > :32:35.living on our sword with no other chance. If I may a one thing. I just
:32:36. > :32:38.want to bring in our guest here. It is understandable, surely, for
:32:39. > :32:42.Israelis that they want to remove the threat, they want to remove the
:32:43. > :32:47.threat apart from anything else of the tunnels that seem to pop up in
:32:48. > :32:55.kibbutz, and the middle of people's gardens, complete insecurity? This
:32:56. > :32:59.is not understandable to me. Because the conflict between Israel and the
:33:00. > :33:03.Palestinians is at its core a political conflict. There is no
:33:04. > :33:08.military solution to this conflict. So no amount of military force by
:33:09. > :33:13.Israel is going to resolve the conflict. The Israelis tried again
:33:14. > :33:20.and again, it has launched a full scale assault on Gaza in 2008/09,
:33:21. > :33:25.then there was another round of violence in 2012 which ended with a
:33:26. > :33:31.cease-fire. And there is another round of violence. So both sides
:33:32. > :33:36.accuse the other of initiating the violence. The chain of action and
:33:37. > :33:42.reaction is endless. But the underlying calls, the context for
:33:43. > :33:51.the violence is Israeli colonialism and the Israeli occupation of
:33:52. > :33:54.Palestinian territories. So do you see any merit in saying there is an
:33:55. > :34:02.occupation that has to be ended now, that is the only way to end this
:34:03. > :34:07.conflict? By the way I agree that an all-military solution will not bring
:34:08. > :34:10.an end to Hamas. We have to combine both military and diplomatic steps
:34:11. > :34:14.in order to fight with Hamas. But you talked about these tunnel, I'm
:34:15. > :34:23.asking you, hundreds of millions of dollars worth of invested in Gaza by
:34:24. > :34:26.Israel withdrawn from Gaza. 00,000 tonnes of cement was used to build
:34:27. > :34:32.the tunnels instead of building schools and hospitals and buildings
:34:33. > :34:36.for affordable housing in Gaza in order to make Gaza the next Brighton
:34:37. > :34:38.Beach or Monaco, order to make Gaza the next Brighton
:34:39. > :34:43.organisation does not want peace with Israel. There is no equivalence
:34:44. > :34:45.in death, every death is a tragedy. But if you look at this, there is
:34:46. > :34:49.more, But if you look at this, there is
:34:50. > :34:53.authorities, there is more than 500 Palestinians killed, each death
:34:54. > :34:57.regrettable, the same way that each death of an Israeli soldier and
:34:58. > :35:02.civilians are regrettable. If the head of the UN says there has been
:35:03. > :35:06.atrocities, atrocious action does anybody actually listen to Ban
:35:07. > :35:10.Ki-Moon? You know this claim is making me furious, because it is
:35:11. > :35:15.like Israel has to apologise that we don't have as many casualties like
:35:16. > :35:20.the Palestinians, or like Hamas that uses civilians as human shields. In
:35:21. > :35:24.the Middle East, in the crazy zoo of the neighbourhood. Of the Middle
:35:25. > :35:33.East if you are not strong, if Israel is not strong we would not
:35:34. > :35:39.exist. Do you accept that? No I don't. Israel is the
:35:40. > :35:43.fourth-strongest military power in the world. The Palestinians are a
:35:44. > :35:49.negligible threat. They don't pose any threat to Israel's basic
:35:50. > :35:55.security. What is fundamental to this conflict is the asymmetry of
:35:56. > :36:00.power between the two sides. So the Palestinians are the weak party, the
:36:01. > :36:05.vulnerable party, and the trouble with Israel is that it has so much
:36:06. > :36:16.military power and it uses this all the time. Ever since Israel, ever
:36:17. > :36:20.since the occupation began in 1967 Israel has shunned meaningful
:36:21. > :36:25.negotiations with the Palestinians. But if Hamas wants to obliterate
:36:26. > :36:30.Israel, what is Israel to do, if that is Hamas's stated aim, what on
:36:31. > :36:37.earth is Israel to do? Hamas has a terrible charter but it has a group
:36:38. > :36:40.of pragmatic military, pragmatic political leaders who have been
:36:41. > :36:45.moving towards moderation all the time. Is it possible that actually
:36:46. > :36:49.Israel will have to talk to Hamas, Hamas says it doesn't want to talk
:36:50. > :36:55.to Israel, do you think Israel should try to talk to Hamas? Yes,
:36:56. > :37:02.Israel will happily talk to Hamas if they will make a shift and do what
:37:03. > :37:07.the choice was two decades ago, that a military solution is not the
:37:08. > :37:10.solution. Israel not like Hamas or the Palestinians, proved before that
:37:11. > :37:16.when they have partners for peace and are reminded that both Egypt and
:37:17. > :37:18.Jordan were much worse of enemies to Israel than Hamas or the
:37:19. > :37:23.Palestinians, so we are talking to them and giving away territories and
:37:24. > :37:27.we are giving away natural infrastructure, resources, water and
:37:28. > :37:31.if Israel doesn't have something, if natural resources water and
:37:32. > :37:39.territory, which we gave only in order to have peace, so Hamas has to
:37:40. > :37:42.do what others do, and to say we are not fighting and making these
:37:43. > :37:45.struggles through terror, we are talking with the other side and if
:37:46. > :37:50.they will want to make a dialogue with us we will be more than happy
:37:51. > :37:53.to get to the two-state solution, that is the only solution for us. We
:37:54. > :37:55.could continue this debate for loaning time, thank you very much
:37:56. > :38:04.for joining us tonight. Who hasn't heard of Kevin Spay's
:38:05. > :38:08.series of House of Cards, it is a revolution in the broadcasting world
:38:09. > :38:14.changing how TV is consumed and commissioned. Companies like Amazon
:38:15. > :38:18.and Netflix offer TV on demand, no scheduler to tell us what to watch
:38:19. > :38:23.and when to watch it. Because this TV is consumed via the Internet,
:38:24. > :38:36.they are able to harness huge amount of data to tailor content to us.
:38:37. > :38:39.This new way is it just about technology?
:38:40. > :38:46.This is how TV used to work. The A-team have been moved to 6.00,
:38:47. > :38:52.quick schedule an episode of Blankity Blank. TV schedules were
:38:53. > :38:55.planned with military air, commissioners would decide what we
:38:56. > :39:03.would watch and controllers when we got to watch it. But now streaming
:39:04. > :39:07.services like Netflix and Amazon instant video allow viewers to be
:39:08. > :39:10.their own channel controllers. Behind the scenes TV is changing
:39:11. > :39:15.fast, both in the way it is consumed and the way it is commissioned. It
:39:16. > :39:19.gets me to bounce out of day every day to realise I'm at the centre of
:39:20. > :39:23.a revolution, how people are consuming their entertainment at
:39:24. > :39:29.home. Content is still king of TV land, that hasn't changed. House of
:39:30. > :39:33.Cards would be landmark television in any age, but there shall we say,
:39:34. > :39:38.a new Chief Whip in town, driving us towards that content. I almost pity
:39:39. > :39:44.him, he didn't choose to be put on my planet. Leading this revolution
:39:45. > :39:50.is Netflix, based here in Calafornia. They started renting out
:39:51. > :39:54.DVDs through the post and now streaming shows to 50 million
:39:55. > :39:58.customers in more than 40 countries. We were given rare access to their
:39:59. > :40:13.development team. We have a few minutes and that's it. People will
:40:14. > :40:16.give the produce and they have to choose or they will leave. There is
:40:17. > :40:21.positive spin on the challenges faced, the problem isn't people
:40:22. > :40:24.finding too much that they want to watch, or anything, it is a
:40:25. > :40:28.particular challenge in the UK where the Netflix catalogue is thinner
:40:29. > :40:32.than in the US. Nevertheless, it is his job to make sure that every
:40:33. > :40:36.subscriber finds something that grabs them within a few minutes of
:40:37. > :40:40.looking. When you have internet TV, you basically have a direct
:40:41. > :40:46.relationship with the use e you don't throw something -- user, you
:40:47. > :40:51.don't throw something out to the airways and you leave it out there
:40:52. > :40:56.and hope that journals at home, you know what they watched and what time
:40:57. > :41:00.they watched it, the velocity they went from one episode to the next,
:41:01. > :41:06.or if it is a film did they watch the whole thing or punt on it after
:41:07. > :41:11.five minutes. We know what you say you like and what you actually like.
:41:12. > :41:16.We in theed your grant is a violent reveining thriller fan. To process
:41:17. > :41:22.the data coming from the audience, Netflix needs to gather similar
:41:23. > :41:27.information about the show or film. How violent, romantic, funny is it,
:41:28. > :41:34.are there guns or drugs in it, is the ending happy or sat? Male
:41:35. > :41:39.nudity, female nudity, sex, drugs, drinking, smoking. This is the fun
:41:40. > :41:46.stuff. Greg reckons he has pretty much the best job in the world. He's
:41:47. > :41:52.one of 40 Netflix taggers, he watches the show and fills in dozens
:41:53. > :41:58.of data fields about it. Have you watched Newsnight, we have squirm
:41:59. > :42:02.factors! Tagging is not a cricket. I'm not reviewing any of these. Also
:42:03. > :42:10.it is not even about referring good movies or bad to you, you might love
:42:11. > :42:13.bad movies, we will try to match those to you. It is about getting
:42:14. > :42:19.you movies you like. There is no subjectivity there. Like you know,
:42:20. > :42:25.if I hate a movie there is nothing I can do to keep it away from you. If
:42:26. > :42:30.it sounds like your cup of tea, Netflix is now advertising for the
:42:31. > :42:39.first tagger in the UK. No truesers flying through the air? No. The
:42:40. > :42:45.English language doesn't travel across them water so smoothly. I
:42:46. > :42:49.blame Oscar Wilde, if you take a tag like "witty", that is used in the US
:42:50. > :42:53.differently than in the UK. The UK you guys just have a higher barks I
:42:54. > :42:57.blame that on Shakespeare, it is a different use of the word, so
:42:58. > :43:01.someone with those kinds of sensitivites on how you are tagging
:43:02. > :43:04.and labelling titles from a language perspective and having the
:43:05. > :43:26.perspective of someone who is a Brit, that is important to us. It is
:43:27. > :43:30.all three of you, come here, give me a kiss... . It is not just Netflix
:43:31. > :43:35.changing the way TV is made, there are plenty of other companies too.
:43:36. > :43:38.We are at the paramount lot in Hollywood, where they have been
:43:39. > :43:45.making generations of TV programmes. I think it is safe to say nothing
:43:46. > :43:49.quite like this. This is Josh I was telling you about, single and
:43:50. > :43:54.gorgeous. This is Transparent, a comedy family drama produced by
:43:55. > :43:58.Amazon instant video, the pilot was one of ten shows Amazon offered to
:43:59. > :44:03.subscribers who were then asked to pick what they wanted to see more
:44:04. > :44:08.of, Transparent was a clear winner. This was crowdsourced commissioning,
:44:09. > :44:13.the creator, Jill Soloway has a string of writing credits, including
:44:14. > :44:17.Six Feet Under, she says this way of creating TV is a big improvement. We
:44:18. > :44:22.have so little of the typical network interference you would
:44:23. > :44:25.normally see. Normally there would be 15-20 people on the set giving
:44:26. > :44:28.notes on every performance and really giving notes that are related
:44:29. > :44:33.to their fear of what might not work. I think in the old way people
:44:34. > :44:38.would come up with ideas, and the television networks would then take
:44:39. > :44:42.those ideas and bring them to people who sold toilet paper and asked the
:44:43. > :44:48.people who sold toilet paper if they would like to put their toilet paper
:44:49. > :44:55.commercials on to this content. They were making content that they hoped
:44:56. > :44:59.big brands would want to align themselves with. I need to talk to
:45:00. > :45:03.you about something, there is a big change going on. But shows like
:45:04. > :45:07.Transparent are different in another way too. Dealing as it does with the
:45:08. > :45:12.struggles of transgender man coming out to his family, it isn't to
:45:13. > :45:16.everyone's taste, but the on-demand model gives it permission to be
:45:17. > :45:19.hated by most people, as long as some people really love it. In the
:45:20. > :45:24.past channel executives would pursue a mass audience, aiming for a show
:45:25. > :45:30.that lots of people thought was quite good. Today that's useless, in
:45:31. > :45:34.an on-demand environment, no-one will demand that show, that show
:45:35. > :45:38.will go to zero. So you have to look to the passionate audience that
:45:39. > :45:43.usually comes from an artist with a vision. For some one who is like
:45:44. > :45:51.that, you know, it is hard for me to tell them how to create a better
:45:52. > :45:55.expression of their vision. We are still in the very early days of this
:45:56. > :45:58.TV revolution, but it is clear already where it is going. The TV
:45:59. > :46:04.companies will gather and harness as much data as we're comfortable with,
:46:05. > :46:08.in order to tailor content to us. Society in the long run, not this
:46:09. > :46:13.particular year, maybe not next year, but generation over
:46:14. > :46:18.generation, society will get more comfortable with sharing more
:46:19. > :46:22.information at a certain place because that is where t world is
:46:23. > :46:25.going. The world is going towards the information is out there then it
:46:26. > :46:28.can be leveraged to make a better and better experience for people to
:46:29. > :46:34.put the right content in front of them at the right time. Your TV is
:46:35. > :46:39.no longer an idiot box, it is getting smarter all the time. As
:46:40. > :46:43.ever, with the tantalising temptations of the information age,
:46:44. > :46:46.there is a Faustian element to the bargain, revealing more information
:46:47. > :46:54.about ourselves, supply more data, in return for more of the TV we want
:46:55. > :46:59.to watch. That is just about it for tonight. Proms fans will know that
:47:00. > :47:02.we are on day four of 58 and we are getting in on the act too. Every
:47:03. > :47:06.Friday until September we will be bringing you a different preview
:47:07. > :47:13.here on Newsnight. And to throw ahead to our special proms season,
:47:14. > :47:16.here is Alison Ballsom, performing the trumpet concerto with piano
:47:17. > :48:46.accompaniment.