:00:07. > :00:09.Many of the bodies from the Malaysian airline plane crash
:00:10. > :00:14.are on their way home, the recovered black boxes are heading to the UK
:00:15. > :00:18.for analysis but are investigators any nearer to knowing what exactly
:00:19. > :00:26.Was the Kremlin behind the death of Alexander Litvinenko?
:00:27. > :00:30.Seven years after his murder, the Government has finally agreed to
:00:31. > :00:41.This is a very grave allegation that has to be examined. We have to get
:00:42. > :00:45.to the bottom of it. If the price of it is some of the material being
:00:46. > :00:51.examine bed hind closed doorsI for one would accept that. We speak to
:00:52. > :00:56.Marina Litvinenko. Obscuring the faces of the dead. Is this an act of
:00:57. > :00:59.respect by broadcasters or has television no right to censor what
:01:00. > :01:03.we see of war? And, after a disastrous England
:01:04. > :01:07.World Cup performance, does football's governing body need to
:01:08. > :01:17.take some of the blame? I'll ask Greg Dyke, the chair of the FA.
:01:18. > :01:21.The bodies of many of the passengers on flight MH 17 are
:01:22. > :01:25.finally on their way home, six days after their plane was attacked.
:01:26. > :01:29.There are reported to be the remains of 282 people on the train now in
:01:30. > :01:35.There is to be a service of farewell in the Ukranian town at
:01:36. > :01:40.9am tomorrow before the first flight takes off for Eindhoven airport.
:01:41. > :01:44.Tomorrow is a day of national mourning in the Netherlands.
:01:45. > :01:56.Gabriel Gatehouse was at the crash site todayIt's taken seven years of
:01:57. > :02:03.We hear there's been a statement from the US State Department. What
:02:04. > :02:06.does its contain? Officials briefing journalists anonymously in
:02:07. > :02:10.Washington said they could find no evidence of direct Russian
:02:11. > :02:15.involvement in the downing of MH 16 17. They said they still thought it
:02:16. > :02:18.was likely to have been brought down by a surface-to-air missile in
:02:19. > :02:22.rebel-controlled territory inside Ukraine. They said they thought that
:02:23. > :02:27.Russia had created the conditions for the downing of the plane by
:02:28. > :02:33.arming the separatists, but they stopped short of saying that Russia
:02:34. > :02:35.armed them with this book surface-to-air missile system. No
:02:36. > :02:38.direct evidence of direct involvement. Those that believe
:02:39. > :02:44.Russia was involved, and there are many, will say that absence of
:02:45. > :02:48.evidence, the rebels themselves maintain they had nothing to do with
:02:49. > :02:54.it and further more didn't have the capability to bring down a plane at
:02:55. > :02:57.this height. We know Malaysian officials joined other
:02:58. > :03:01.investigators, there was tooing and froing with the rebels. What was
:03:02. > :03:04.happening? There were three Malaysian aviation
:03:05. > :03:08.experts on the site for the first time today, as opposed to forensic
:03:09. > :03:13.experts who'd been examining the bodies. They didn't say anything,
:03:14. > :03:16.but the OSCE, the European security organisation that's been here from
:03:17. > :03:22.the start accused people of tampering with the evidence, of
:03:23. > :03:27.taking a saw to some parts of the wreckage and started sawing it up. I
:03:28. > :03:31.didn't see that, but we saw what seemed to be a crucial bit of
:03:32. > :03:36.evidence, part of the fuse Raj - we can see some of the pictures we
:03:37. > :03:44.filmed today - it's the left hand part of the cockpit, what appears to
:03:45. > :03:49.be extensive shrapnel marks -- fuselage. Experts on these matters,
:03:50. > :03:54.military aviation experts say these marks are consistent with the kind
:03:55. > :03:57.of supersonic surface-to-air missile that they believe brought down this
:03:58. > :04:02.plane. We saw this bit of fuselage propped up by the side of a village
:04:03. > :04:06.lane that had been put there by a ten-year-old boy all these days
:04:07. > :04:12.after the crash left totally unattended what appears to be a
:04:13. > :04:17.crucial piece of evidence. There's dividing opinion about the bodies
:04:18. > :04:25.being put on the train and taken to Eindhoven. What do you know about
:04:26. > :04:33.that? It's said that they collected 282 out of the bodies. Dutch
:04:34. > :04:39.officials said today they thought the number was closer to 200. They
:04:40. > :04:44.are going to have to two back, and, as they put it, negotiate with the
:04:45. > :04:50.rebels. We have seen on Sunday, Monday and indeed today, that they
:04:51. > :04:53.are still pulling bodies from the wreckage. This leaves so much more
:04:54. > :04:57.uncertainty for the families back home, many of them, of course, in
:04:58. > :05:02.Holland, as you said, the first 50 of those will be flying from Ukraine
:05:03. > :05:06.back to Holland, but many of the relatives still no clearer as to
:05:07. > :05:07.whether their loved ones are on that flight or not.
:05:08. > :05:23.Thank you very much. Michael Bociurkiw, you have spent
:05:24. > :05:27.the last few days at the crash site. Can you tell us what you know of the
:05:28. > :05:32.tampering of some parts of the fuselage by rebels and where they
:05:33. > :05:35.actually -- and were they actually confronted when they began to do
:05:36. > :05:40.that? Good evening. Well, first of all, we
:05:41. > :05:43.have spent the past five days at the crash sites. We were the first
:05:44. > :05:48.International Organisation there on the scene. Of course. And secondly,
:05:49. > :05:52.if I may, I would like to correct the correspondent's tape in saying
:05:53. > :05:55.that we did not accuse anyone of tampering with the evidence from the
:05:56. > :06:00.crash site. We have said from day one to especially today when we were
:06:01. > :06:05.with the Malaysian experts is that we have noticed quite marked changes
:06:06. > :06:09.to some of the crash impact areas of which there are about eight. For
:06:10. > :06:15.example, Gabriel referred to that big piece of fuselage. Really the
:06:16. > :06:21.most burnt area of the crash site. That has been moved. Also, the
:06:22. > :06:27.really, really tough area to locate is where the cockpit came down and
:06:28. > :06:31.pancaked basically. We observed two days ago, uniformed men, emergency
:06:32. > :06:35.services uniformed men hacking away with the powered saw into the
:06:36. > :06:39.fuselage. We can't draw any conclusions from that, but whether
:06:40. > :06:42.they were looking for more human remains or not, we are not quite
:06:43. > :06:47.sure. How tough is this site in the sense
:06:48. > :06:55.that if anything's moved, does it make your job much more difficult to
:06:56. > :07:03.ascertain what actually happened? It does. I mean, we are there to
:07:04. > :07:06.establish the facts and to report on them and to facilitate dialogue
:07:07. > :07:10.also. What we have been doing all along is photographing the site
:07:11. > :07:15.day-by-day by day. So by now, we probably have about 1,000 images,
:07:16. > :07:19.and we'll be providing that to the authorities and to the Malaysians,
:07:20. > :07:23.so they'll be able to tell how much this site has changed. If I could
:07:24. > :07:29.add, I mean today there was almost an eerie quietness in the whole
:07:30. > :07:33.crash area. All the emergency rescue effort had disappeared, tents that
:07:34. > :07:38.were used to process the site have all gone, so it was basically us,
:07:39. > :07:42.our small security detail and about 17 journalists. The word
:07:43. > :07:48.extraordinary comes to mind really. But it's also a site, I understand,
:07:49. > :07:57.where there will still be remains. What do you know of that?
:07:58. > :08:03.Yes. In fact, today, we shared with our 57 states that we Didak chillily
:08:04. > :08:07.spot human remains and in some very obvious areas at the side of the
:08:08. > :08:12.roadway. I can also said that when we went again to the site where the
:08:13. > :08:21.cockpit came down, the Malaysian experts noted that although they
:08:22. > :08:26.couldn't see human remains, the own characteristics were there. We
:08:27. > :08:32.believe the amount of human remains left, it's quite substantial and it
:08:33. > :08:37.requires a massive search effort, it seems, to detect and collect all of
:08:38. > :08:42.them. Do you think that for the people that have been there - there
:08:43. > :08:47.are two different things there - there is an insecurity at the site,
:08:48. > :08:51.physically. What impact has it had? A number of rescue workers, local
:08:52. > :08:57.miners who helped, people like yourselves, what impact has it had
:08:58. > :09:04.on you all in being there? Well, thank you for asking that. I
:09:05. > :09:08.mean, we are Monitoring Mission of 275 monitors now from 40 different
:09:09. > :09:11.countries and many from very hardened missions from the past,
:09:12. > :09:16.many of us have worked emergencies, but I think most of us agree this is
:09:17. > :09:20.like nothing else we have seen in terms of the extraordinary nature of
:09:21. > :09:24.not having an act of rescue and recovery effort. Most importantly,
:09:25. > :09:28.from the moment we arrived there, not detecting any security
:09:29. > :09:34.perimeter. Also, just quickly, it is an act of conflict area. In fact,
:09:35. > :09:38.just behind me, I can hear heavy weaponry explosions going off here
:09:39. > :09:41.in Donetsk, it's a very insecure fluid area.
:09:42. > :09:44.Michael Bociurkiw, thank you so much for joining us.
:09:45. > :09:49.I will be speaking to a Dutch MEP later in the programme about how
:09:50. > :09:52.their nation prepares for the victims of flight MH17 to return
:09:53. > :09:56.home. It's taken seven years of pressure
:09:57. > :09:59.by Alexander Litvinenko's widow Marina and her supporters, but
:10:00. > :10:04.finally, there is to be a public inquiry into her husband's death.
:10:05. > :10:08.She believes he was working for MI6 and was murdered in London on orders
:10:09. > :10:13.from the Kremlin, something Russia denies. The decision is a complete
:10:14. > :10:19.volte fast by the Government now acting with certain knowledge that
:10:20. > :10:22.Vladimir Putin will be angered by the inquiry. Before the Home
:10:23. > :10:26.Secretary Theresa May dragged her heels refusing to grant the inquiry
:10:27. > :10:28.partly she admitted because of the impact on international relations.
:10:29. > :10:36.Today, that doesn't seem to be an issue any more.
:10:37. > :10:42.I do this, not against, not Russia, not England. I do this for justice.
:10:43. > :10:46.I do this for truth. Today, nearly eight years after her husband,
:10:47. > :10:50.Alexander Litvinenko east death, Marina, won a victory in the battle
:10:51. > :10:52.to discover how he died in circumstances that he explained on
:10:53. > :11:16.his death bed like this. The former KGB agent who turned into
:11:17. > :11:20.a fierce critic of the Kremlin said the Russian state organised the
:11:21. > :11:23.slipping of polonium into his tea at London's Mill enyum Hotel. That's
:11:24. > :11:28.never been proved. The Government's now announced a public inquiry which
:11:29. > :11:34.may do so. The key issue that will be examined
:11:35. > :11:40.by this public inquiry is the culpability of the Russian state.
:11:41. > :11:43.Apart from the suspects that remain named who were responsible for the
:11:44. > :11:48.murder of Alexander Litvinenko, it is important to find out what state
:11:49. > :11:52.agents acted in perpetrating the crime. How best to investigate crime
:11:53. > :11:58.has been the subject of a long legal wrangle. In June last year, the
:11:59. > :12:01.coroner in the Litvinenko inquest said a public inquiry would be the
:12:02. > :12:03.best way to look at all the evidence, including sensitive
:12:04. > :12:08.material relating to national security.
:12:09. > :12:12.In July, the Government said no. It insisted an inquest excluding such
:12:13. > :12:16.material would be adequate. In February, the High Court backed
:12:17. > :12:20.Marina Litvinenko's challenge to that decision. Today, on the last
:12:21. > :12:25.day of Parliament before the recess, the Government gave way for reasons
:12:26. > :12:28.that appear political, though that's officially denied.
:12:29. > :12:32.The Government said last year that fear of affecting Russian relations
:12:33. > :12:36.was one factor in its refusal to hold a public inquiry into
:12:37. > :12:39.Litvinenko's death. Now it seems that's no longer such a
:12:40. > :12:44.consideration. Today's decision may have nothing to do with the downing
:12:45. > :12:47.of the Malaysian airliner but it reflects a hardening in Britain's
:12:48. > :12:50.attitude towards Russia since the beginning of the Ukraine crisis.
:12:51. > :12:54.Those who're already seen the evidence in the Litvinenko case have
:12:55. > :13:00.no doubt what will be revealed. We obviously - considered all of the
:13:01. > :13:05.evidence very carefully indeed and, as far as I was considered, having
:13:06. > :13:10.done that, this case bore all the hallmarks of a state execution on
:13:11. > :13:15.the streets of our capital City and all the indications were, from the
:13:16. > :13:20.evidence I saw, that Russian state actors were involved in this murder.
:13:21. > :13:25.Russia's very unlikely to cooperate with the inquiry. It's refused to
:13:26. > :13:28.extradite Andrei Lugovoi, now a Russian politician, whom Britain
:13:29. > :13:32.wants to try for Alexander Litvinenko's murder. So the inquiry
:13:33. > :13:35.will rely principally on British information, including about the
:13:36. > :13:39.source of the radioactive polonium that killed him.
:13:40. > :13:43.Whatever evidence links the suspects who met Alexander Litvinenko in this
:13:44. > :13:48.hotel, with the Kremlin, will be provided by British intelligence and
:13:49. > :13:53.will be heard in closed session. If it convinces the judge, he may end
:13:54. > :13:56.up in effect branding Russia as a state sponsor of nuclear terrorism.
:13:57. > :14:00.That would bring Mr Putin's standing in the world to a new low. If the
:14:01. > :14:03.inquiry accepts the evidence and declares that to be the case, this
:14:04. > :14:09.is going to be very significant. It's going to obviously impact very
:14:10. > :14:14.profoundly on the UK's relations with Russia but it's also going to I
:14:15. > :14:17.think impact pretty deeply on the way the world views the Russian
:14:18. > :14:22.state. All the secrets about Litvinenko,
:14:23. > :14:25.including his exact relationship with British intelligence may still
:14:26. > :14:28.not be revealed in the inquiry, but much of the truth does now seem
:14:29. > :14:34.likely to emerge whatever the political fallout.
:14:35. > :14:38.Joining joining me now is Alexander Litvinenko's widow, Marina.
:14:39. > :14:44.Marina, did you ever think that you would finally get a public inquiry?
:14:45. > :14:50.Actually, yes. I did feel it. It's helped me to be, not calm, but to
:14:51. > :14:55.believe that one day I'd have justice. It's took quite a long time
:14:56. > :14:59.to wait for, almost one year from the first time, last July, when
:15:00. > :15:03.Theresa May just decline the rightful public inquiry. It was
:15:04. > :15:09.quite difficult period for all of us. Then suddenly the decision was
:15:10. > :15:15.changed? Yes. I would say it was expected but it was suddenly and
:15:16. > :15:19.particularly in this time when it's everything's strong, talking about
:15:20. > :15:24.Ukraine and Russia. Do you think that Vladimir Putin
:15:25. > :15:31.will be angered by the decision to hold an inquiry? I can't charge him
:15:32. > :15:35.personal, but I believe this decision will be very hard for
:15:36. > :15:41.somebody in Russia. You think that you know who did this
:15:42. > :15:47.to your husband? I can't say who exactly but it would be much easier
:15:48. > :15:52.to know after this public inquiry. But no matter that the public
:15:53. > :15:57.inquiry does identify the perpetrators of this crime, a public
:15:58. > :16:05.inquiry is not going to put anyone behind bars is it? No. Any trial
:16:06. > :16:10.that we have can't put anybody for trial personal because not Lugovoi,
:16:11. > :16:17.not named suspects. They are in Russia and it's not possible to get
:16:18. > :16:21.them to trial to London. It's only evidence what we have and the
:16:22. > :16:26.investigation what was done by Scotland Yard finally it will be
:16:27. > :16:30.came to public opinion and after this, people will certainly know
:16:31. > :16:35.about what happened. Of course, as you say, there's no question at the
:16:36. > :16:39.moment, I imagine, of any form of extradition no matter what the
:16:40. > :16:44.public inquiry finds, so therefore, for you, is it enough, do you think,
:16:45. > :16:48.to have a very clear idea of who killed your husband and leave it at
:16:49. > :16:52.that? I'm wondering what you think the public inquiry will achieve
:16:53. > :16:58.beyond that? I started the inquest after five years of Sasha's death.
:16:59. > :17:05.It's took me five years to go to this kind of persecution, I would
:17:06. > :17:11.say, because no other trial I can get result suspects and then this
:17:12. > :17:16.inquest started to be slow and slow and slow because evidence where
:17:17. > :17:21.finally somebody could see something very strong. The poisoning of your
:17:22. > :17:24.husband was quite blatant an obvious, wasn't it? What do you
:17:25. > :17:34.think the purpose of it was in terms of who was the message for? It's
:17:35. > :17:40.difficult again to discuss because using polonium, it's just absolutely
:17:41. > :17:45.irresponsible. People just gives this order to kill my husband
:17:46. > :17:51.without any even decision what polonium harmful, not just for one
:17:52. > :18:02.person. I would say many people in London. How many people as well. Do
:18:03. > :18:07.you think though, you say you were contaminated too and that was not on
:18:08. > :18:11.purpose. But I've talked to you about this a while ago before and
:18:12. > :18:18.you were uncertain. Do you feel possibly that your own life is in
:18:19. > :18:27.danger daily in London? What I'm in a position to solve is to have this
:18:28. > :18:32.case done anyway, trial or inquest or public inquiry because any truth
:18:33. > :18:39.in the end we will have. We will have some evidence or some verdict,
:18:40. > :18:46.who is behind this crime. It helps people to be sure. It might not
:18:47. > :18:50.happen again without this. Lump feel safe though? -- will you ever feel
:18:51. > :18:56.safe though? I would say yes. Thank you very much for joining us.
:18:57. > :19:00.Returning to our earlier story, in the Netherlands today, Prime
:19:01. > :19:03.Minister Mark Rutte warned that attitudes towards Russia had changed
:19:04. > :19:11.fundamentally since the disaster. Anna Holligan reports.
:19:12. > :19:16.A serene, stable nation, caught up in somebody else's conflict.
:19:17. > :19:22.This shrine growing every day now marks the spot at departures III,
:19:23. > :19:26.the point from which the dead departed.
:19:27. > :19:30.This started with just a couple of bouquets on Thursday evening and, as
:19:31. > :19:36.more and more people heard about the disaster, just look at the scale of
:19:37. > :19:39.this shrine now. Schipol is an international hub airport. Hundreds
:19:40. > :19:43.of passengers pass through these doors every day and many have been
:19:44. > :19:47.stopping off here to pay their respects to the passengers who were
:19:48. > :19:51.on board that flight, passengers just like them, many going on
:19:52. > :20:00.holiday. If you have a look down here, you can see international
:20:01. > :20:05.nature of the tributes. Beyond the pockets of personal
:20:06. > :20:08.sadness, there is a widely held public sentiment that Dutch
:20:09. > :20:12.officials are being too soft. Earlier, the Prime Minister, Mark
:20:13. > :20:17.Rutte, took a harder line against Russia.
:20:18. > :20:22.TRANSLATION: In our view, something has changed fundamentally there
:20:23. > :20:25.since Thursday. According to the Netherlands, all options are on the
:20:26. > :20:30.table, economic, financial and political. Our priority is to get
:20:31. > :20:35.the people back and the best possible independent investigation
:20:36. > :20:42.and justice. The Netherlands is a calm, reserved
:20:43. > :20:46.country, but a front-page image has moved emotions from shock and
:20:47. > :20:55.sadness to fury and frustration, combined with disbelief.
:20:56. > :21:00.Since Thursday, I've been thinking, how horrible it must have been. The
:21:01. > :21:07.final moments of their lives when they knew the plane was going down.
:21:08. > :21:17.Did they lock hands with their loved ones? Did they hold their children
:21:18. > :21:23.close to their hearts? Did they look each other in the eyes, one final
:21:24. > :21:29.time, in a wordless goodbye? We will never know.
:21:30. > :21:38.Many here in this serene stable nation feels as though they've been
:21:39. > :21:45.dragged into someone else's war. The church is going to hold a vigil at 8
:21:46. > :21:51.o'clock. We are in sadness. After that, there'll be a request for
:21:52. > :21:55.retaliation. There were quite a lot of Amsterdam people on the plane. We
:21:56. > :22:00.are a small community so almost everybody in our surroundings are
:22:01. > :22:04.affected by this, by the crash. So I feel that an entire city is grieving
:22:05. > :22:09.about this. Tomorrow, the bodies will be flown
:22:10. > :22:14.into Eindhoven. Families will wait alongside the Dutch King and Queen.
:22:15. > :22:20.None of them will know whether the coffins will contain their
:22:21. > :22:23.relatives. The list of names of the 193 missing Dutch victims was
:22:24. > :22:30.published in the papers this morning. Some of the remains still
:22:31. > :22:36.lie in eastern Ukraine. At this Dutch military facility just
:22:37. > :22:41.outside Hilversum, they have been making preparations for the arrival
:22:42. > :22:44.of the remains. Soon, the eyes of the internationally affected
:22:45. > :22:48.community will be on this place over the coming days, weeks, perhaps
:22:49. > :22:53.months. The bodies of those passengers will be driven through
:22:54. > :22:59.these gates to be identified by forensics before they can finally be
:23:00. > :23:03.reunited with their families. Tomorrow has been declared a
:23:04. > :23:10.national day of mourning. The first in the Netherlands since 1962 when
:23:11. > :23:16.the Queen died. This is a small nation, one that isn't accustomed to
:23:17. > :23:20.such immense misery. Anna Holligan. Marietje Schaake is a
:23:21. > :23:23.Dutch member of the European Parliament and a member of the
:23:24. > :23:28.committee on Foreign Affairs, as well as a committee of international
:23:29. > :23:32.trade and she is in Brussels. Marietje Schaake, do you think there
:23:33. > :23:35.is any relief for people in the Netherlands for knowing that some of
:23:36. > :23:41.the bodies will be repatriated tomorrow?
:23:42. > :23:44.Well, after all the intense sorrow of the loss of so many innocent
:23:45. > :23:48.people, particularly so many children after the downing of this
:23:49. > :23:53.plane, of course people want to have an opportunity to say a dignified
:23:54. > :24:00.goodbye to their loved ones. But I find it hard to understand how
:24:01. > :24:04.people can find peace of mind after seeing tampering with the site of
:24:05. > :24:09.the downing of the plane, looting of the site and personal belongings of
:24:10. > :24:14.the innocent victims. It's actually appalling that this has happened and
:24:15. > :24:17.I believe that there is a very deep mix of grief and anger in the
:24:18. > :24:22.Netherlands that will last for a very long time. Now, in Anna
:24:23. > :24:25.Holligan's report there, we heard from a young man who said that the
:24:26. > :24:29.country was in mourning but there was a feeling that there would need
:24:30. > :24:34.to be some retaliation. I was wondering if there is a terrible
:24:35. > :24:37.feeling of impotence in the country when, exactly what you are saying,
:24:38. > :24:43.at the fact that you have no control of what is happening in eastern
:24:44. > :24:47.Ukraine? That is why we asked firmly, our Government does and we
:24:48. > :24:52.have today in the European Parliament, for European support for
:24:53. > :24:56.an international inquiry at the crash site and with all the evidence
:24:57. > :25:01.that is available and unrestricted access to the site. Again, it is
:25:02. > :25:03.disgraceful that it took a UN Security Council resolution
:25:04. > :25:07.disgraceful that it took a UN sure that that process started
:25:08. > :25:13.moving. So all those who have any influence over the people who're at
:25:14. > :25:17.and around the site must provide their cooperation to uncover every
:25:18. > :25:21.detail on this horrible downing of the plane so that we can find out
:25:22. > :25:26.what exactly happened and that we can talk about how to find justice,
:25:27. > :25:31.not only for the victims and the immediate loved ones of those
:25:32. > :25:36.innocent victims, but also for the acquiring of justice for the Dutch,
:25:37. > :25:42.for all the other ones who've fallen. This is a disaster, a
:25:43. > :25:46.catastrophe that has impacted many, many countries. We've received
:25:47. > :25:52.condolences and messages of sympathy from all over the world, and our
:25:53. > :25:55.priority is to seek justice and to bring those responsible and their
:25:56. > :26:07.enablers, to accountability. Finally. Today, European Foreign
:26:08. > :26:12.Ministers agreed to step up the existing sanctions they placed on
:26:13. > :26:16.Russia. What signal does this give to Vladimir Putin? Would you have
:26:17. > :26:21.liked to see tougher sanctions today? The perspective of new
:26:22. > :26:26.sanctions still has to be agreed on and what is essential now is that
:26:27. > :26:30.Europe stands unite and makes a clear desession on whether it seeks
:26:31. > :26:34.to continue with trade as if it's business as usual with energy
:26:35. > :26:40.relations as if it's business as usual or whether we'll finally come
:26:41. > :26:43.Taggart and take a tough stance for fundamental values, for
:26:44. > :26:47.international justice, which has not only been challenged through this
:26:48. > :26:51.terrible downing of the aeroplane, but has been challenged in a number
:26:52. > :26:56.of incidents over the past couple of months, and it's very, very
:26:57. > :27:00.important that we reassess our stance towards the Kremlin and
:27:01. > :27:03.towards events that are happening in our eastern neighbourhood and I
:27:04. > :27:07.believe it's essential that Europe acts as a strong leader in this
:27:08. > :27:11.world and the challenges that we are seeing after the downing of the
:27:12. > :27:17.plane in the context of the annexation of Crimea of the unrest
:27:18. > :27:22.in the eastern Ukraine, but also of broader questions of international
:27:23. > :27:25.relations, merit a strong response from Europe, and I think we have to
:27:26. > :27:28.focus on that all together. Thank you very much. Even more urgently
:27:29. > :27:34.than we did before. Thank you very much.
:27:35. > :27:41.Now, tonight, a number of airlines, including Delta, Air Canada, Air
:27:42. > :27:43.France, Lufthansa and KLM, have suspended flights to an
:27:44. > :27:47.international airport in response to a rocket strike that landed a mile
:27:48. > :27:53.from the airport today. There was no let-up in the fighting that's
:27:54. > :27:57.claimed more than 600 lives. 100 of them, according to Gazan officials
:27:58. > :28:01.are children. John Kerry and Ban Ki-Moon are
:28:02. > :28:05.engaged in rounds of talks in Israel and Egypt and tomorrow, Ban Ki-Moon
:28:06. > :28:09.heads for the West Bank. So far, there is no sign of a ceasefire,
:28:10. > :28:13.only perhaps the possibility of a humanitarian truce lasting several
:28:14. > :28:24.days to get aid to the Palestinian territory.
:28:25. > :28:28.I'm joined by the UN Special Envoy for the Palestinian conflict
:28:29. > :28:33.negotiations and also the former US Ambassador to Israel.
:28:34. > :28:38.You left just three weeks ago and when you left, you said you were
:28:39. > :28:46.battered by the whole situation. Did you simply give up?
:28:47. > :28:53.No, we didn't give up. We reached a point where the parties themselves
:28:54. > :28:56.gave up. The Israelis suspended the negotiations because the
:28:57. > :29:02.Palestinians had decided to reconcile with Hamas which is not
:29:03. > :29:07.interested in negotiations. There wasn't anything more that we could
:29:08. > :29:11.do. For nine months, we negotiated intensively at the highest levels
:29:12. > :29:16.with the Secretary of State heavily involved. I think he made 16 trips
:29:17. > :29:19.to the region in that process, so giving up was not words in our
:29:20. > :29:24.vocabulary. But if you thought it was hopeless three weeks ago, what
:29:25. > :29:31.do you think of it now? Do you think the Israelis were right to start
:29:32. > :29:38.this offensive in Gaza? They didn't start the offensive.
:29:39. > :29:43.Take the offensive into Gaza, sorry? With the ground invasion and air
:29:44. > :29:51.power as well? Yes, the offensive was started by
:29:52. > :29:58.Hamas rockets into Israeli cities, but the situation obviously is
:29:59. > :30:03.horrific and it grows worse by the day. It's the opposite of
:30:04. > :30:07.peace-making. It's all about war-making at the moment. The only
:30:08. > :30:13.hope in this horrendous situation is that both sides will come to
:30:14. > :30:17.understand what Secretary Kerry was telling them from the outset of our
:30:18. > :30:22.efforts to try to Makepeace which was that the status quo is
:30:23. > :30:31.unsustainable and that chronic conflict is not a way... Well, you
:30:32. > :30:34.talk about chronic conflict. The figures are 600 dead on the
:30:35. > :30:39.Palestinian side, more than 30 dead on the Israeli side. But let's look
:30:40. > :30:45.at the UN figures. Of the Palestinians who've died, the UN
:30:46. > :30:50.says 75% are civilian, 25 from one family, 100 children, two hospitals.
:30:51. > :30:59.Is that disproportionate? You know, I'm not here to make
:31:00. > :31:08.judgments about these kinds of things. I think it's an horrendous
:31:09. > :31:12.situation that civilian casualties have happened, the casualties are
:31:13. > :31:16.terrible and I wish that they were not happening, I also wish Hamas
:31:17. > :31:21.wouldn't use civilians as their shields and hide their rockets. But
:31:22. > :31:26.the French Foreign Minister's called it a massacre and the opposition
:31:27. > :31:31.leader Ed Miliband in Washington said that Israel was wrong to go
:31:32. > :31:38.into Gaza? Gaza. Do you think that Israel should have held back this
:31:39. > :31:46.time? Look, I don't know what you want from me, I'm not here to make
:31:47. > :31:50.judgments on either side. But you are here as a man who knows the area
:31:51. > :31:57.well, you have been negotiating. Let me finish my answer, please. I think
:31:58. > :32:04.that again, if you look at the record, there were several attempts
:32:05. > :32:09.at ceasefires. I do not believe that Prime Minister Netanyahu was a man
:32:10. > :32:15.who wanted to go into Gaza on the ground. He was seeking ways to
:32:16. > :32:19.achieve calm before that. But the rocketing of Israeli cities and the
:32:20. > :32:23.attacks through the tunnels were such that it got to the point that
:32:24. > :32:29.he couldn't get a ceasefire so he decided to move in and try to
:32:30. > :32:36.destroy the tunnels. You know, this is the nature of war that both sides
:32:37. > :32:42.are engaged in, in a process that leads to escalation. But is it going
:32:43. > :32:46.to make Israel for targeted? It's just not an acceptable situation.
:32:47. > :32:50.That's why we have to try to get a ceasefire as soon as possible.
:32:51. > :32:55.But, is it going to make Israel more secure? Right now, Israel looks
:32:56. > :33:01.isolated by virtue of the fact that the very few flights if any go into
:33:02. > :33:06.the airport. Is Israel going to be more secure by making more enemies
:33:07. > :33:10.of Palestinians? Well, clearly, the only way to ensure lasting security
:33:11. > :33:19.is to try to get peace. That's what we were trying to do, but I think
:33:20. > :33:24.that you need to answer the question - if you think there's a better way
:33:25. > :33:28.to stop the rockets from being fired in Israeli civilian populations,
:33:29. > :33:33.then responding with force, go for it. We have been trying to get a
:33:34. > :33:37.ceasefire. I don't know what it is exactly that should be done.
:33:38. > :33:41.Obviously, civilians, casualties should be avoided to maximum effect
:33:42. > :33:45.possible. The question is, how do you get a ceasefire. The answer to
:33:46. > :33:50.the question is, how do you stop Hamas from firing rockets? Thank you
:33:51. > :33:54.very much. Well, the conflict in Gaza and the
:33:55. > :33:59.high number of civilian casualties has thrown into sharp ways the way
:34:00. > :34:03.broadcasters deal with images of the dead. Newsnight and other BBC News
:34:04. > :34:06.and current affairs programmes covering war zones often warn before
:34:07. > :34:10.showing the films that viewers might find some images contained in the
:34:11. > :34:15.report distressing. But is it more or less upsetting to obscure the
:34:16. > :34:19.faces of the dead as we do? The veteran war reporter Robert Fisk
:34:20. > :34:22.writing this knell independent on Sunday this weekend joined the
:34:23. > :34:36.critics who say broadcasters may be guilty of sanitising the horror of
:34:37. > :34:41.war. Here is Katie Razzall's report. This contains some disturbing
:34:42. > :34:47.images. An iconic picture of the Vietnam War. It might have looked
:34:48. > :34:52.less powerful or brutal elsewhere. Brutal images too disturbing for us
:34:53. > :34:57.to show. Blobbing the faces of the dead is censorship of war says
:34:58. > :35:02.Robert Fisk. Censorship by coward who is avoid death on TV more and
:35:03. > :35:05.more. The broadcasting code sets rules television companies must
:35:06. > :35:08.comply with. Before the watershed, it says children must also be
:35:09. > :35:14.protected from material that is unsuitable for them. Broadcaster can
:35:15. > :35:20.be severely fined for any harm or offence caused. After 9 o'clock,
:35:21. > :35:23.offensive images including violence, humiliation, distress and violation
:35:24. > :35:30.of human dignity can be justified by the context.
:35:31. > :35:39.Robert Fisk concentrates on Gaza and argues that by making a child's face
:35:40. > :35:46.blobbed out, it kills them a second time.
:35:47. > :35:50.Joining us to discuss this is the President of the Royal Television
:35:51. > :35:57.Society and a defence editor at the Times newspaper, Debra Haines.
:35:58. > :36:05.Peter, who are we obscuring the faces and bodies for? Television is
:36:06. > :36:11.a very pervasive medium and it's heavily regulated compared to other
:36:12. > :36:14.media. We have heard about the censorship. If you are turning on a
:36:15. > :36:18.documentary about deaths in the Middle East you would know that what
:36:19. > :36:23.was about. But you would turn on the news and know that war zones and
:36:24. > :36:27.conflicts would be being covered? But you wouldn't know on any given
:36:28. > :36:31.night. The 9 o'clock watershed is a critical part. We are protecting the
:36:32. > :36:35.sensibilities of the viewers, but we should term the whole story after 9
:36:36. > :36:41.o'clock. Before 9lock, it's a different story. Surely Peter has a
:36:42. > :36:47.point about protecting viewers? I disagree. I really think that by
:36:48. > :36:51.sanitising the reality of war, we are not giving the true story to
:36:52. > :36:57.people back home. People need to know that if someone's being shot by
:36:58. > :37:01.a high velocity bullet, it causes real damage. Do you believe though
:37:02. > :37:06.that there should be a line or there should be more censorship of what is
:37:07. > :37:10.shown of conflict? I think there is no point displaying gratuitous
:37:11. > :37:15.violence for the sake of it. So I think that newspapers, for example,
:37:16. > :37:21.take a slightly bolder line in that way and are able to do it in a
:37:22. > :37:26.responsible way that doesn't protect people's sensibility. The whole
:37:27. > :37:31.media is changing, isn't it, because with smartphones and so forth,
:37:32. > :37:35.people are seeing the impacts of conflict, seeing people dying on the
:37:36. > :37:40.ground. However, doesn't it make the broadcasters look very out of touch
:37:41. > :37:45.with the times in which we live? Paradoxically, the fact that you can
:37:46. > :37:50.see any of this stuff, YouTube could be described as... Well... YouTube
:37:51. > :37:53.could be described as a long snuff movie but it's the very fact that
:37:54. > :37:57.this stuff is available, shot on mobile phones and so widely
:37:58. > :38:01.available that points up that television is a different role, has
:38:02. > :38:05.a different role to play. But it's sending to the world some of the
:38:06. > :38:10.things happening. But do you know something, I'm not necessarily
:38:11. > :38:12.against you about your high velocity bullet point, I don't need to see
:38:13. > :38:17.every detail to understand people have died. That is true, isn't it,
:38:18. > :38:22.that you talk about gratuitous, but actually, if a reporter is doing his
:38:23. > :38:30.or her job well, they explain what is happening with a certain
:38:31. > :38:34.coralling of the images? Absolutely and I'm not talking about them
:38:35. > :38:38.talking about every last drop of blood on the floor, but to protect
:38:39. > :38:43.people, the face of an innocent child that's died as a blob isn't
:38:44. > :38:48.protecting sensibilities, it's masking the reality of war. The BBC
:38:49. > :38:52.has got it right before 9 o'clock but I would side with you to the
:38:53. > :38:59.extent that I think after 9 o'clock Newsnight could be more realistic
:39:00. > :39:04.and more detailed. Do you think that you have to have a new set of rules?
:39:05. > :39:08.There has to be, as it were, a reality check? Well, I think we are
:39:09. > :39:12.being challenged even by this, as you make the point, the footage that
:39:13. > :39:17.is available shot on every mobile phone. I think after 9 o'clock, I
:39:18. > :39:21.think at the moment television is tending to apply the same rules and
:39:22. > :39:25.ignoring the watershed. I think we could be more honest and real after
:39:26. > :39:31.9 o'clock but television's got it right before 9 o'clock. It's
:39:32. > :39:36.interesting because we are used to horrific violence in movies. We are
:39:37. > :39:42.becoming detan sized to violence anyway? Were to an extent, but the
:39:43. > :39:46.reality of war would help people realise that war is not a good thing
:39:47. > :39:53.and it might lessen war. The care with which you show that footage is
:39:54. > :39:59.less effective. Thank you very much. Greg Dyke is undoubtably the most
:40:00. > :40:03.straight-talking chairman in Football Association -- the Football
:40:04. > :40:08.Association has ever had. He told the committee his forthright opinion
:40:09. > :40:13.of FIFA, describing the congress like something out of North Korea.
:40:14. > :40:17.But he hasn't told the world what he made of England's performance in the
:40:18. > :40:19.World Cup and whether that throat-cutting gesture he made at
:40:20. > :40:23.the draw when the group was announced meant that he knew they
:40:24. > :40:28.were heading phone an early fall. He joins me now. Good evening. First of
:40:29. > :40:38.all, at the Select Committee today. If corruption proved, will England
:40:39. > :40:43.pull out? No. Well, we are all waiting to see Mr Garcia's report.
:40:44. > :40:48.When we see Mr Garcia's report, we'll know what level of, if there
:40:49. > :40:52.was any corruption and what level there was, we at that stage I think
:40:53. > :40:59.if there is evidence of corruption would ask for a revote.
:41:00. > :41:03.But in the absence of a revote, you wouldn't pull England out, you would
:41:04. > :41:09.two? I don't think there's any point in pulling England out. I told the
:41:10. > :41:13.Select Committee, I've resigned from things before and it's not a good
:41:14. > :41:20.idea really. Yeah, we all wish you were still at the BBC! Do you think
:41:21. > :41:24.it's proper to go to Russia in 2018? It's early to say that. You think
:41:25. > :41:30.there might be an issue? You can't look at it in this week because it's
:41:31. > :41:35.such a dramatic event this week. Can you imagine Vladimir Putin at the
:41:36. > :41:40.opening ceremony? As I say, it's too early to know that. In the end, that
:41:41. > :41:46.decision will be taken by FIFA. Let's have a bit of lacking back now
:41:47. > :41:51.and deal with the World Cup. It was England's worst performance in more
:41:52. > :41:55.than 50 years. That's not true. Were you embarrassed? That's not true.
:41:56. > :41:59.Once we got there, we always knew it you embarrassed? That's not true.
:42:00. > :42:06.would be a tough group. Said from the beginning, the throat-cutting.
:42:07. > :42:11.So you were toast at the draw? No, but it was difficult. We didn't want
:42:12. > :42:15.to play in Manuas and didn't want to play the Italians because it gave us
:42:16. > :42:19.a very hard group. That is an excuse. Come on? ! You asked me
:42:20. > :42:23.about the throat-cutting, I'm telling you. But can you imagine
:42:24. > :42:27.that actually, England's regarded as one of the finest footballing
:42:28. > :42:31.nations. Wasn't it humiliating what happened to England? No. It was
:42:32. > :42:37.disappointing, it wasn't humiliating. What was humiliating
:42:38. > :42:44.would be to lose 7-1, as Brazil discovered. We didn't lose 7-1, we
:42:45. > :42:47.lost by two-odd goals which could have gon the orthis way. It was
:42:48. > :42:55.disappointing and we would have liked to have done better -- gone
:42:56. > :43:00.the other way. You are a man that has been part of several
:43:01. > :43:05.organisations. Why are you protecting Roy Hodgson? Over 80% of
:43:06. > :43:10.the public said we were right to keep him. He's got a four-year
:43:11. > :43:13.contract. We looked at it after the results and said look, we think
:43:14. > :43:17.we'll stick with this guy for at least another two years. So you did
:43:18. > :43:22.look at the contract? Oh, we mew the concerns. We looked at the contract.
:43:23. > :43:26.Well, we were not concerned we said on the day that you have lost, you
:43:27. > :43:31.have to make a quick decision, we talked to people and said we'd stick
:43:32. > :43:38.with Roy for the next two years. I think English football's got a
:43:39. > :43:43.problem with a commission that's being looked into. They were great
:43:44. > :43:47.footballers. We are a bit short on English footballers. Wait a minute,
:43:48. > :43:53.you are short on good English footballers? Yes, 70% of the Premier
:43:54. > :43:58.League are now foreign players, 50% of the Championship are foreign
:43:59. > :44:01.players. We have a limitation and that's getting bigger every year. Do
:44:02. > :44:06.you think that's actually footballers playing better when they
:44:07. > :44:09.finally got there? I think they think they could have done. Do you
:44:10. > :44:14.think they could? As I say... You are the chairman? It's small
:44:15. > :44:18.margins, but mistakes, we could have got through to the next round and we
:44:19. > :44:21.didn't and that was due to a number of mistakes and missed
:44:22. > :44:25.opportunities. On the park? Yes. Thank you very much.
:44:26. > :44:29.Well, will Scotland keep the pound in the event of independence? The
:44:30. > :44:32.latest salvo in this debate came from a report from the chair of the
:44:33. > :44:36.Westminster Scottish air fairs committee who said the Government
:44:37. > :44:41.government tries to give the impression a currency unit is still
:44:42. > :44:45.possible. It's not. The pound is dead, to which Scotland's minister
:44:46. > :44:48.decided the pound is as much Scotland's as well as England's and
:44:49. > :44:55.Northern Ireland's, as so it goes on. We spoke to Alex Salmond. Two
:44:56. > :44:58.months out from perhaps the biggest moment of your political life, do
:44:59. > :45:02.you accept that you still have a lot of people to convince? I think we
:45:03. > :45:09.take the average of all the polls. It's now co Al elsing at 55, 45. Can
:45:10. > :45:17.you make up that sort of gap, yes, of course we can. More than the
:45:18. > :45:22.polls, it's more important to say why we are going to make up that gap
:45:23. > :45:25.and why are we going to win. We are going to win because we are putting
:45:26. > :45:30.forward the case about the future of Scotland. If the no-campaign is
:45:31. > :45:34.hapless, negative talking about plagues on people's houses, if that
:45:35. > :45:37.is so ineffective, why have they been ahead for such a long time?
:45:38. > :45:42.They have always been ahead and comfortable with the idea that they
:45:43. > :45:47.can always face down the quest for independence and they go back to the
:45:48. > :45:51.reserve position which is the negativity. But before you get to
:45:52. > :45:56.that point, Scottish voters is a vested interest in knowing for sure
:45:57. > :46:03.which currency they'll be able to use, for sure who'd set interest
:46:04. > :46:08.rates, for sure who would the banks would go to if the financial system
:46:09. > :46:13.were to collapse? These are questions we've answered. We can't
:46:14. > :46:17.get the United Kingdom to say that publicly but we know from leaks in
:46:18. > :46:20.the Guardian that senior ministers say of course there'll be a currency
:46:21. > :46:24.union, this is all about the campaign, we are just doing what
:46:25. > :46:28.Alistair Darling wants us to do. But you expect people to be reassured
:46:29. > :46:32.and secure enough to believe that they'll definitely be able to keep
:46:33. > :46:39.the pound on the basis of an off-the-record quote to a newspaper?
:46:40. > :46:42.No. I expect people to take a common-sense position of that.
:46:43. > :46:47.People are big enough and strong enough in Scotland to see through
:46:48. > :46:51.Tory Bluesers and threats during the campaign. One Scottish voters said
:46:52. > :47:00.to me in Glasgow yesterday, if I go and buy a car and the salesman can't
:47:01. > :47:05.tell me how the financing would work, I wouldn't buy that car. So
:47:06. > :47:08.many big economic questions, the share of the debt, who'd set
:47:09. > :47:12.interest rates, lender of last resort? All right, the share of the
:47:13. > :47:16.debt starts at 0, the sets of interest rates is the Bank of
:47:17. > :47:19.England, the lender is the Bank of England also. We can put forward a
:47:20. > :47:23.proposition which is in the best interests of Scotland and the rest
:47:24. > :47:29.of the United Kingdom. It's not a prop digs... It's backed by the
:47:30. > :47:34.democratic. Why should the rest of the UK be content for this to be a
:47:35. > :47:39.political pick and mix, pick what you want from the defence, what the
:47:40. > :47:45.BBC, the lottery, the currency, bits and pieces of the existing UK as you
:47:46. > :47:51.wish. It's a bit like a divorce and the husband who walked out gets to
:47:52. > :47:58.choose who he wants from the -- what he wants from the furniture and the
:47:59. > :48:02.partner has no say. Why should people accept giving you what you
:48:03. > :48:12.want? Let's take the cases that you illustrated. These were your
:48:13. > :48:16.choices. Nobody in England as far as I know is giving uprising or ill
:48:17. > :48:21.will towards Canada because they have a tell merry to have the Queen
:48:22. > :48:27.as Head of State in the real world incidentally with the real people of
:48:28. > :48:32.England, the sort of people I met and on the ferries across the Mersey
:48:33. > :48:35.this morning. They don't have a metropolitan Westminster. Perhaps
:48:36. > :48:39.the BBC attitude that everyone ganging up on Scotland. But the
:48:40. > :48:42.polls suggest that you won't win. Have you thought about your own
:48:43. > :48:48.position if the polls are right or would you try again? We'll win. This
:48:49. > :48:52.time. First Minister, thank you very much indeed. Thank you.
:48:53. > :48:54.That is all we have time for tonight. Have a very good night.
:48:55. > :49:09.Good night. Hello there. The warmth continues
:49:10. > :49:12.for the rest of this week. Another fine day for most on Wednesday.
:49:13. > :49:14.Might start off a bit grey where you