:00:00. > :00:12.Will President Putin feel any real pain from western sanctions? The
:00:13. > :00:16.United States sim posing new sanctions in key sectors of the
:00:17. > :00:23.Russian economy. Energy, arms, and finance. But if we really wanted to
:00:24. > :00:28.hurt him, wouldn't we be targeting Russia's vast reserves of natural
:00:29. > :00:35.gas? The only problem is that Europe needs all that lovely gas. Instead
:00:36. > :00:41.it is the banking sector that will feel the burden, this could be
:00:42. > :00:45.enough to tip Russia into recession. Another 100 Gazans are reported to
:00:46. > :00:47.have been killed since last night by the Israeli Defence Force.
:00:48. > :00:54.Why does the leader of the opposition in the Israeli parliament
:00:55. > :01:03.support the onslaught. And the great First World War poet,
:01:04. > :01:08.significant Fridayed Sassoon. Dark Claude are smalledering into -- dark
:01:09. > :01:20.clouds are smoldering into red. Who and what determines how we see the
:01:21. > :01:21.Great War. Do we see it clearly. Learly.
:01:22. > :01:28.So after much huffing and puffing the European Union has finally
:01:29. > :01:32.responded to the shooting down of the Malaysian airliner MH17, by
:01:33. > :01:36.moving to so called stage III sanctions against Russia. There will
:01:37. > :01:41.be ban on sales of equipment to Russia that would help it modernise
:01:42. > :01:47.its huge oil industry. A prohibition has been put in place on exports of
:01:48. > :01:50.technology that has actual or possible military use. Leading
:01:51. > :01:55.Russian banks will no longer be able to raise money from European
:01:56. > :02:02.investors. Is this the EU showing its teeth or just some flaccid gums?
:02:03. > :02:05.And will these measures genuinely hurt President Putin so he thinks
:02:06. > :02:10.again about his backing for pro-Russian rebels in eastern
:02:11. > :02:15.Ukraine. Or, will the pain, if any, actually be felt by us?
:02:16. > :02:24.We will hear in a moment from our economics correspondent, but here
:02:25. > :02:30.first is a report from Moscow. Moscow's Gorky Park this evening had
:02:31. > :02:37.a happy air about it. Life has rarely been so good in Russia,
:02:38. > :02:43.soaring gas and oil prices have filled the coffers, and the
:02:44. > :02:48.middle-classes are enjoying it. The fighting in Ukraine and the downed
:02:49. > :02:51.flight seem far from here, it is hard to believe that sanctions would
:02:52. > :02:55.sweep all of this away. But analysts of the Russian economy were already
:02:56. > :03:01.detecting signs of trouble before today's news. Only in the last
:03:02. > :03:05.several weeks have we started to see the strains emerging, so higher
:03:06. > :03:11.interest rates, stubbornly high inflation, in June for example the
:03:12. > :03:15.car sales were down 17% year on year. So you are starting to see the
:03:16. > :03:18.cracks now appearing. Interestingly an opinion poll out today suggests
:03:19. > :03:23.the number of people who are worried about sanctions in Russia has
:03:24. > :03:28.actually dropped from over 50% back in March to around 35% today. The
:03:29. > :03:35.number of people who are not too concerned or not bothered at all is
:03:36. > :03:39.now over 60%. That poll was reflected this evening by Moscow's
:03:40. > :03:43.young and carefree in Gorky Park. It all seemed a world away from
:03:44. > :03:47.Washington, where President Obama was announcing more sanctions.
:03:48. > :03:53.Russia is once again isolating itself from the international
:03:54. > :03:56.community, setting back decades of genuine progress. And it doesn't
:03:57. > :04:01.have to come to this. It didn't have to come to this. The sanctions did
:04:02. > :04:05.make the Russian news today, but it wasn't the main story. And the
:04:06. > :04:11.presenter said that Ukraine should be being isolated, not Russia,
:04:12. > :04:15.because it had used what he called "weapons of mass destruction"
:04:16. > :04:21.against its own people. The official reaction to the sanctions has been
:04:22. > :04:25.one of stoicim. This was the Foreign Minister yesterday. TRANSLATION:
:04:26. > :04:29.This gives us no pleasure, just as we know it gives European countries
:04:30. > :04:34.no pleasure to impose the sanctions. But, I assure you, we can overcome
:04:35. > :04:40.the difficulties that will arise in some parts of our economy. Possibly
:04:41. > :04:43.we will also become more self-sufficient and more confident
:04:44. > :04:52.of our own strength, this is also useful. While this evening Sergei
:04:53. > :04:55.Markov, a political scientist with close links to the Kremlin, made it
:04:56. > :05:07.clear that the new sanctions could have consequences. And now it is in
:05:08. > :05:17.history that in the on the anniversary, 100 years since the
:05:18. > :05:21.Great War, we are very close to world war three. The Kremlin appears
:05:22. > :05:24.to have made a decision, it knows as the sanctions pile up, there will be
:05:25. > :05:28.economic and then political consequences. But it seems to have
:05:29. > :05:33.calculated that the political consequences will be much worse if
:05:34. > :05:40.it is seen to give in to America and its allies in western Europe. So
:05:41. > :05:43.joining me now is our economics correspondent. Do you think these
:05:44. > :05:47.sanctions are remotely significant? I think they are very significant,
:05:48. > :05:50.they have already been described as the toughest sanctions on Russia
:05:51. > :05:54.since the end of the Cold War, I think that is true. If we go back
:05:55. > :05:58.two weeks since before the Malaysian airlines was downed. The US brought
:05:59. > :06:02.in tough sanctions, Europe brought in much weaker sanctions. Today
:06:03. > :06:06.Europe has gone a lot further than the US did two weeks ago, much more
:06:07. > :06:11.than anyone else was expecting, even this time last week. This is going
:06:12. > :06:15.to in particular hit Russian banks who are already been locked out in
:06:16. > :06:19.borrowing in dollars, and now locked out in euros as well, I think they
:06:20. > :06:23.are significant. Do they have any kind of implications for us, I mean
:06:24. > :06:28.it is quite interesting that we have danced around the whole energy
:06:29. > :06:33.sector. Very little in the way that will damage Russia's huge oil and
:06:34. > :06:38.gas industry. What are the implications for the UK and the
:06:39. > :06:41.European Union? There is damage to the Russian oil industry, we have
:06:42. > :06:48.deliberately not targeted the gas industry. The effect will vary
:06:49. > :06:52.across the European Union. France is more exposed to arms sales and
:06:53. > :06:55.Germany some of the high-tech energy equipment. In the UK there are two
:06:56. > :06:58.things to bear in mind, firstly when the Russian banks come to raise
:06:59. > :07:05.money they do it in London, we are talking hundreds of millions in lost
:07:06. > :07:08.fees in the City. Secondly BP, it owns 20% of Rossneft, a big direct
:07:09. > :07:13.investment, there is worries about that, their shares are down two. 5%
:07:14. > :07:20.today. If you look however at sanctions that have had an impact in
:07:21. > :07:26.the past, say on Iran, they tend to be actually rather more significant,
:07:27. > :07:30.draconian, Iranian companies broadly banned from raising finance across
:07:31. > :07:35.the world. Almost impossible for Iran to sell anything anywhere. That
:07:36. > :07:42.had a major impact on that economy. Do we really think that these much
:07:43. > :07:46.more limited punitive actions will make Putin feel any pain at all of
:07:47. > :07:50.any serious sort? No, I think they will. I think you are right. These
:07:51. > :07:53.are nowhere near as strong as the sanctions on Iran or Sudan
:07:54. > :07:57.previously. There are two things to bear in mind. Firstly we have to
:07:58. > :07:59.look at the underlying health of the Russian economy. If we look at
:08:00. > :08:03.Russian economic growth over the last decade the first thing we can
:08:04. > :08:07.see is that the Russian economy was growing at 6-8% a year, it slowed
:08:08. > :08:11.after the recession, but last year the Russian economy only grew by
:08:12. > :08:14.just over 1%, before anything happened in Crimea or Ukraine. This
:08:15. > :08:17.wasn't economy that was slowing down. Secondly, now I agree with
:08:18. > :08:21.you, the formal sanctions will cause some pain, they are not massive.
:08:22. > :08:25.What matters more is the indirect effect. So three times this year the
:08:26. > :08:29.Russian Central Bank has been forced to raise interest rates. Most
:08:30. > :08:32.recently on Friday, to try to defend their currency. As well you know
:08:33. > :08:34.Robert, the last thing you want to be doing when your economy is
:08:35. > :08:37.slowing is raising interest rates. So I think the actual sanctions
:08:38. > :08:41.themselves are not what's doing the damage. What is doing the damage is
:08:42. > :08:44.the action they are forcing the Russians to take, raising interest
:08:45. > :08:50.rates and a slowing economy, it never ends particularly well. Thank
:08:51. > :09:01.you. Now joining me is a former British ambassador to Russia, and
:09:02. > :09:05.the director of p the Russia Studies Centre of the Henry Jackson Society.
:09:06. > :09:10.We are trying to see if this is largely cosmetic and the Europeans
:09:11. > :09:14.saving facial in a difficult situation or it will have an impact
:09:15. > :09:20.on the way Russia behaves in the Ukraine? I think the current round
:09:21. > :09:24.of sanctions announced by the US and the EU today are deeply significant.
:09:25. > :09:29.I would argue that the earlier sanctions were in a sense symbolic
:09:30. > :09:35.and it is Duncan said the greater impact they had was indirect in the
:09:36. > :09:40.sense of the message they sent to international investors, and markets
:09:41. > :09:46.and confidence and so forth. I would agree with you that this is just to
:09:47. > :09:53.an extent a face-saving exercise. The EU needed to retain a degree of
:09:54. > :09:56.credibility in the way it acts towards Russia, I do think the
:09:57. > :10:00.sanctions will impact Russia and may bring about change in President
:10:01. > :10:04.Putin's behaviour. If we look for example at the sanctions imposed on
:10:05. > :10:08.the energy sector, we are already talking about equipment that may
:10:09. > :10:12.have an impact on the efficiency of Russian oil companies in a few
:10:13. > :10:15.years' time, but not damaging them in a major way now. If you look at
:10:16. > :10:19.the restriction on Russian banks raising capital, well, they will
:10:20. > :10:24.simply go to China, won't they, for that money. They have also a Central
:10:25. > :10:30.Bank that can print money. Do we really think that in terms of what
:10:31. > :10:34.the impact will be on ordinary people's lives in Russia that they
:10:35. > :10:37.will see any difference? If we look at the past experience of sanctions
:10:38. > :10:42.and the Russian regime, President Putin. If one considers for example
:10:43. > :10:49.Russia's reaction to the United States adoption of the the act in
:10:50. > :10:52.2010, sorry 2012, Russia's response was assertive, it was in a sense
:10:53. > :10:56.defensive, and in one or two respects quite aggressive and gave
:10:57. > :10:59.the impression indeed that America did take seriously, sorry that
:11:00. > :11:05.Russia took seriously the sanctions and the impact that had it and its
:11:06. > :11:10.behaviour. As somebody who knows Russia very well, how does President
:11:11. > :11:16.Putin typically pond to these sports -- respond to these sorts of
:11:17. > :11:20.threats? He's counter suggestible on things like this from the west and
:11:21. > :11:25.he will be to this, and not respond in the way we want him to. He has
:11:26. > :11:29.90% popular support in Russia, and the reason is because he's seen as a
:11:30. > :11:33.great hero of the Russians against the intruding, humiliating and
:11:34. > :11:35.encirleling west. Therefore he has little political choice, apart from
:11:36. > :11:39.anything else, but to stand firmly against these sanctions. The
:11:40. > :11:45.sanctions are, in my view, very unlikely to have their affect, and
:11:46. > :11:49.unlikely to prove counter-productive in finding any solution to the
:11:50. > :11:55.Ukraine problem. What in your view should the west be doing? This is
:11:56. > :11:59.not a popular line of course, but the west needs to talk seriously to
:12:00. > :12:03.the Russian, bringing the Ukrainians into the conversation about a
:12:04. > :12:06.solution which protects what the Russians see as their assets in
:12:07. > :12:10.Ukraine, which is to keep Ukraine out of NATO and protect the
:12:11. > :12:13.Russian-speaking population there. If we could do a deal which
:12:14. > :12:16.incorporates that, Putin can go back to his people and claim victory and
:12:17. > :12:22.we can come down from what is actually at the moment a very
:12:23. > :12:25.dangerous escaltory spiral. The west introduces sanctions, whatever
:12:26. > :12:29.economic effect, they will not have a political effect. Russia maintains
:12:30. > :12:34.its support for the separatist, and maybe steps it up a bit. The west
:12:35. > :12:38.introduces more sanctions and more support for the separatist, and
:12:39. > :12:46.sliding dangerously down hill. Do you see any way out of escalating
:12:47. > :12:51.conflict? I would agree with Sir Tony that these are a gamble. Gamble
:12:52. > :12:54.in a sense they bring about economic hardship, potentially economic
:12:55. > :12:57.hardship against Europe and America, but they are also a gamble because
:12:58. > :13:01.we don't know how President Putin will react to this. Sir Tony is
:13:02. > :13:04.correct, what President Putin will need to get out of this is something
:13:05. > :13:10.that he can present to the Russian people as a victory. I would, I
:13:11. > :13:15.suppose, depart from Sir Tony in the sense that I think alongside
:13:16. > :13:18.sanctions there absolutely should be diplomatic engagment behind the
:13:19. > :13:22.scenes, and that may well be a way of bringing about a compromise which
:13:23. > :13:30.will be difficult for the west to swallow, but it is better than the
:13:31. > :13:34.alternative. Thank you very much. Is the great thing about the National
:13:35. > :13:39.Health Service that no British person has to pay to use it, or is
:13:40. > :13:44.it that most of it is provided by the public sector, by the state?
:13:45. > :13:50.Labour's health spokesman, Andy Burnham said the role of the private
:13:51. > :13:52.sector in the health sector has been growing too fast, he called on the
:13:53. > :14:00.Government to halt privatisation until after the general election.
:14:01. > :14:05.But is this the same Andy burn biamond Burnham who was Health
:14:06. > :14:08.Secretary and saw a huge increase in private association with health
:14:09. > :14:13.care. Does it map if a private company fixes your hip or screens
:14:14. > :14:16.you for cancer so long as they do it cheaply and properly. I will speak
:14:17. > :14:21.to him in a minute. First we have this.
:14:22. > :14:25.When you hear about health privatisation, maybe it evokes
:14:26. > :14:31.America and its health care system, a system built on private insurers.
:14:32. > :14:36.Or, perhaps you think of privatising in the 1980s or 1990s, when publicly
:14:37. > :14:39.owned companies got sold off, neither is quite right. I don't
:14:40. > :14:44.think privatisation is the right word. We haven't seen large
:14:45. > :14:47.transfers of ownership from being a public NHS hospital into the private
:14:48. > :14:51.sector. What we have seen is more contracts going to private sector
:14:52. > :14:55.operator, it is more like outsourcing than privatisation. This
:14:56. > :14:59.has been driven by something called the new public management school of
:15:00. > :15:03.thought. The big idea is that decisions are passed to local
:15:04. > :15:07.managers who are then held to account by targets and market
:15:08. > :15:11.forces. But to make all of that work you need alternatives to replace
:15:12. > :15:17.weak services and create competition. And that's where the
:15:18. > :15:23.private providers come in. This idea isn't new, Alan Milburn a Labour
:15:24. > :15:26.Health Secretary said the hard thing about health politics is by and
:15:27. > :15:30.large the thrust of policy over the 30, 40 years, with ups and downs all
:15:31. > :15:34.the way, has broadly within in one direction, more diversity, were
:15:35. > :15:40.youity and autonomy and better data. An increasing share of NHS spending
:15:41. > :15:47.has gone to private providers under the coalition, whose reforms tilted
:15:48. > :15:54.the health service that way. But outsourcing also rose under the
:15:55. > :16:01.Labour administration, including Andy Burn ham's ten euro as
:16:02. > :16:03.secretaries for health. What direction has it gone. Outsourcing
:16:04. > :16:17.got better during the reforms So many difficult things were
:16:18. > :16:20.happening at the same time, there was a lot of emphasis on targets,
:16:21. > :16:24.there were new payment systems for hospitals and a lot more money until
:16:25. > :16:28.recently some that have generated a big improvements in performance that
:16:29. > :16:32.we have seen. One of the questions going forward when there isn't much
:16:33. > :16:35.money in the systems and problems appear, is quite how the private
:16:36. > :16:42.sector helps in that kind of environment. If Mr Burnham plans to
:16:43. > :16:46.crunch down on outsourcing on the NHS, it is hard to say what effect
:16:47. > :16:50.it would have, but it would affect services from cancer care to
:16:51. > :16:55.cataracts. Joining me from Salford is Labour's
:16:56. > :16:59.spokesman Andy Burnham. What exactly are you proposing? The first thing
:17:00. > :17:04.is can I correct something in your piece there, to say that I did
:17:05. > :17:08.something in Government and saying something different in opposition.
:17:09. > :17:11.In Government I changed policy towards the NHS preferred provider
:17:12. > :17:13.principle, because I was saying that the public NHS is important. A
:17:14. > :17:17.service that puts people before profits. And my views haven't
:17:18. > :17:23.changed. What we have seen under this Government... Is a very big
:17:24. > :17:27.hang. Hang on a second. Towards forced send tendering of services.
:17:28. > :17:30.It is taking the NHS into new territory, large contracts being
:17:31. > :17:34.offered for sensitive services such as older people's care and cancer
:17:35. > :17:37.care. Suggesting this Government sees no limits on the use of the
:17:38. > :17:41.private sector. My big point is who gave this Prime Minister permission
:17:42. > :17:44.to put the NHS up for sale in this way. Because if you remember Robert,
:17:45. > :17:49.before the last election he said there would be no reorganisation of
:17:50. > :17:53.the NHS, then he brought forward the biggest-ever. It is really not what
:17:54. > :17:57.I think, the British public have never given their consent for their
:17:58. > :18:02.most valued institution to be broken up and sold off in this way. Hang on
:18:03. > :18:05.a second, who gave Labour permission before the election in which you
:18:06. > :18:09.were Health Secretary, because in that period actually privatisation
:18:10. > :18:12.on your definition went up by 60% and it has gone up only 20% under
:18:13. > :18:16.this Government. Where was the permission that you had? I'm not
:18:17. > :18:20.sure you have your figures right. These are official statistics? Let's
:18:21. > :18:23.explain the different role, Labour used the private sector in a
:18:24. > :18:27.supporting capacity, to provided a decisional capacity to bring down
:18:28. > :18:31.NHS waiting lists. Our mandate was to bring down NHS waiting lists and
:18:32. > :18:36.we did, to the lowest ever level. I'm saying that this Government has
:18:37. > :18:40.changed that. It has forced tendering on the NHS and we are now
:18:41. > :18:45.seeing huge contracts being put out. The FT will report tomorrow that
:18:46. > :18:50.there is currently ?6 billion worth of the NHS out to open tender to be
:18:51. > :18:54.signed before the next election. I don't think that is acceptable when
:18:55. > :18:58.the public have never given their express consent for the NHS to be
:18:59. > :19:06.broken up and sold off in this way. But you explicitly said in 20009
:19:07. > :19:09.nine and I will quote you that we can move beyond polarising debates
:19:10. > :19:14.of public and private sector provision, were you wrong that
:19:15. > :19:18.distinction is an artificial one? I said at the beginning I introduced
:19:19. > :19:23.the NHS preferred provider, I saw a role for the other providers the
:19:24. > :19:26.voluntary or private providers supporting the public NHS. So you
:19:27. > :19:29.were wrong, if you let me make the point, you changed your mind? No
:19:30. > :19:33.because I explained to you what I said. This Government sees a
:19:34. > :19:38.replacement role, so it sees the core public NHS being replaced by
:19:39. > :19:45.private providers. That is to take the NHS into new territory. And I
:19:46. > :19:49.put it to you again, that the British public have never given
:19:50. > :19:53.their consent for that policy. That is the crucial issue here, if David
:19:54. > :19:57.Cameron wants to pursue that policy he must explicitly go to the next
:19:58. > :20:01.election and say this is the kind of health service we want. I have put
:20:02. > :20:06.out the vision for a different health service under Britain, a
:20:07. > :20:09.public integrated service based on the principle of the NHS preferred
:20:10. > :20:13.provider. At the end of the day that matters. I'm passionate about the
:20:14. > :20:17.public NHS and what it represents, it is a service based on people not
:20:18. > :20:23.profits. I'm not clear why you think it matters, actually when people are
:20:24. > :20:29.polled, what they say the NHS is about is free at the point of use.
:20:30. > :20:33.People frankly seem to be very neutral about who provides that
:20:34. > :20:37.service. So long as the quality is there. You have for example, hang
:20:38. > :20:45.on, we have, as you know, some of the worst, the worse worst mortality
:20:46. > :20:49.rates for cancer of any rich country. Why not try the private
:20:50. > :20:52.sector to see if we can improve the mortality rates? Let me answer the
:20:53. > :20:56.main point there. This is the crux of it, isn't it. I think people
:20:57. > :21:01.value the service that we have, that as I say is based on people not
:21:02. > :21:04.profit, that means when people walk through the door of the NHS it is
:21:05. > :21:07.you that matters, it is not your bank balance or the views of
:21:08. > :21:11.shareholders that are the important thing. That is the essence of the
:21:12. > :21:14.service we have, and I think that is what Danny Boyle was celebrating at
:21:15. > :21:18.the Opening Ceremony of the Olympic Games. Now you mentioned cancer
:21:19. > :21:22.care, I have shown today how cancer care has gone backwards under this
:21:23. > :21:27.Government, we're seeing the national cancer target missed for
:21:28. > :21:29.the first time. So you know the Government's reforms aren't making
:21:30. > :21:34.things better, they are making things worse. The NHS has gone
:21:35. > :21:38.downhill under David Cameron. So I think this is the crux of the debate
:21:39. > :21:44.we have to have at the election. This is the choice we have to have.
:21:45. > :21:48.Do we want an NHS that continues on people not profits basis, or do we
:21:49. > :21:53.want a very different service. I'm very clear that I think the public
:21:54. > :21:58.want to see the NHS continue, if we carry on allowing the inexable
:21:59. > :22:01.advance of the market into the NHS, in the end it will devour everything
:22:02. > :22:06.that is precious about it. Just so that I can grasp what it is you are
:22:07. > :22:11.saying here, I just want to return to your period as Health Secretary,
:22:12. > :22:16.there was a hospital that failed under Labour, in Cambridgeshire, it
:22:17. > :22:20.was moved down the runway to privatisation when you were Health
:22:21. > :22:27.Secretary, it is now perceived as a private low-run hospital for the --
:22:28. > :22:32.private low-run hospital for the NHS to provide private treatment, would
:22:33. > :22:36.you reverse that private sector management? I don't think you can
:22:37. > :22:42.just reverse contracts that have been signed. Let's be clear on that
:22:43. > :22:47.example. I was seeking an NHS provider for that hospital under my
:22:48. > :22:53.provider principl it was this Government that signed the contract.
:22:54. > :22:56.The NHS was unable to bid? Let me make the broader point, in the end
:22:57. > :23:01.you have to decide what kind of health service you want, if you look
:23:02. > :23:05.around the world, market-based systems cost more not less than
:23:06. > :23:09.systems like the NHS. They also do something different to the quality
:23:10. > :23:13.of care what they lead to is greater fragmentation of the care, when the
:23:14. > :23:21.future demands integration of care. I'm quite clear that the market is
:23:22. > :23:25.not the answer to 21st century care. I'm setting out my stall, you may
:23:26. > :23:29.disagree with it but I'm pretty clear that is the principle which we
:23:30. > :23:32.should build our health service going forward and those are the
:23:33. > :23:38.foundations on which I'm developing Labour's vision for the NHS in the
:23:39. > :23:42.21st century. Many thanks. Now Israel intensified its remorseless
:23:43. > :23:47.bombardment of Gaza today. There were more than 60 air strikes and an
:23:48. > :23:50.estimated 100 Palestinians killed, including seven families, according
:23:51. > :23:56.to the Palestinian health authority. That would bring the total to well
:23:57. > :24:00.over 1100 Palestinian deaths since hostilities began on July eighth,
:24:01. > :24:04.compared to something over 50 killings of the Israelis. Gaza's
:24:05. > :24:08.only power plant was hit today, making living conditions even more
:24:09. > :24:13.miserable for the territory's one. Eight million people. What are
:24:14. > :24:18.Israel's real aims and what are the prospects for peace.
:24:19. > :24:23.We're joined from Tel Aviv now. What has been happening today? Well, as
:24:24. > :24:26.you just said today was one of the bloodiest days in Gaza, according to
:24:27. > :24:33.Palestinian officials, as you say, more than 100 killed, Israel says it
:24:34. > :24:37.was Hamas-related targets that it was attacking. But local people
:24:38. > :24:42.there say a school was attacked and as you say a tank shell from an
:24:43. > :24:48.Israeli tank hit the only power station, taking out supplies there.
:24:49. > :24:55.On this side of the border missiles from Gaza continuing to rain down on
:24:56. > :24:59.Israel, one for example intercepted this evening over Jerusalem by the
:25:00. > :25:04.Iron Dome system. And on the political front the security cabinet
:25:05. > :25:07.delayed or postponed its meeting from today until tomorrow amid
:25:08. > :25:12.continuing deep divisions in the cabinet about how exactly to pursue
:25:13. > :25:15.the war. I think increasingly the Prime Minister Mr Netenyahu squeezed
:25:16. > :25:20.very much between hawks and between public opinion, which is very much
:25:21. > :25:23.in favour of prolonging the war, on the one hand and America, the UN and
:25:24. > :25:28.other powers on the other hand pressing very strongly for a
:25:29. > :25:35.cease-fire. What is the point of the bombardment, the military action,
:25:36. > :25:40.where does it all end? Well it is hard to say, certainly Israelis are
:25:41. > :25:45.very shocked by the number of soldiers now 53 that they have lost
:25:46. > :25:50.in the last two weeks. And they are also very shocked by the discovery
:25:51. > :25:55.of more and more tunnels leading under the border into Israel. Now
:25:56. > :25:58.Hamas today put out a video which it says shows some of its militants
:25:59. > :26:02.Protestantsing into Israel, we cannot verify this, but certainly
:26:03. > :26:07.the idea for the Israeli army they confirmed there was an incident of
:26:08. > :26:11.this sort, and yesterday five Israeli soldiers were killed when
:26:12. > :26:16.Hamas militants came out of that kind of tunnel. So far these losses
:26:17. > :26:21.only seem to have stiffened the Israeli public's demand for a
:26:22. > :26:24.continuation of the war. But what is interesting is increasingly now
:26:25. > :26:28.there is a debate here about whether the demilitarisation of Gaza, as Mr
:26:29. > :26:33.Netenyahu puts it, can really be carried out in the context of a war
:26:34. > :26:40.by the Israeli army or whether there will have to be some kind of
:26:41. > :26:44.internationally sup advised de-- supervised demilitarisation.
:26:45. > :26:48.Involving some kind of carrot or big, big investment of funds into
:26:49. > :26:52.Gaza, how that mechanism could work, it is a long way off. It is proposed
:26:53. > :26:55.by a former Defence Minister. Mr Netenyahu has certainly shown
:26:56. > :27:00.interest in it, it is an idea gaining more and more traction here
:27:01. > :27:06.now. Many thanks. Earlier I spoke to the leader of the Israeli opposition
:27:07. > :27:10.Labour Party, I asked him how with the Israeli left's tradition of
:27:11. > :27:15.trying to reach a peaceful solution with the Palestinians he could
:27:16. > :27:20.support Israel's onslaught on Gaza? These are tragic events, and believe
:27:21. > :27:24.me most Israelis feel extremely sorry for these tragic events, but
:27:25. > :27:28.we are simply defending our people. I'm going to the same shelter that I
:27:29. > :27:31.have been at as a child. I have been shot at every evening and every
:27:32. > :27:36.morning by missiles, like most of the citizens of Israel. Simply put,
:27:37. > :27:41.so when you are trying to uproot the missiles, after absorbing and
:27:42. > :27:46.absorbing and absorbing and you warn the citizens and you alert the
:27:47. > :27:49.civilians and you send leaflets and SMSs, in the end you fight, you
:27:50. > :27:53.fight to save your own people and you want to know something, I lead
:27:54. > :27:56.the Israeli opposition, I lead the peace camp in Israel, if you want to
:27:57. > :28:02.make peace you have to be ready for war. We are yearning for peace, but
:28:03. > :28:07.we have to make peace with those who are unwilling to sit down -- we have
:28:08. > :28:11.to make peace with those willing to talk to us, not those calling for
:28:12. > :28:15.our destruction and killing our citizens every day. They may be
:28:16. > :28:18.calling for your destruction but Hamas does look extraordinarily
:28:19. > :28:25.weak, no longer getting the support of Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood,
:28:26. > :28:30.the Iron Dome, a tremendous protective cover for Israelis. On
:28:31. > :28:35.that basis isn't the Israeli army going massively over the top in
:28:36. > :28:40.Gaza? But that's not the full picture, with all due respect. It is
:28:41. > :28:45.a very distorted picture. First of all they have been sending thousands
:28:46. > :28:49.of missiles on Israel. I urge you to be here one day or be anywhere and
:28:50. > :28:53.live under missile attack. I mean any normal human being wouldn't
:28:54. > :28:57.accept it. But secondly, most importantly of all, they have dug
:28:58. > :29:03.tunnel, they have taken money from European tax-payers, and they have
:29:04. > :29:07.spent it instead of on relief and helping their citizens in Gaza, on
:29:08. > :29:12.tunnels which have been dug under our homes in southern Israel in
:29:13. > :29:19.order to breakthrough one night, kidnap thousands of Israelis and
:29:20. > :29:25.drug them, torture them, kill them or abduct them to Gaza, and in the
:29:26. > :29:30.most incredible thing that paradoxically all of these kibbutz
:29:31. > :29:34.and villages on the border are part of the peace camp in Israel. This is
:29:35. > :29:39.the absurdity of it all. We have spoken to a former soldier today who
:29:40. > :29:42.nonetheless says that the Israeli army has become more hardened and is
:29:43. > :29:47.acting in a more aggressive way than it would have done in the past. And
:29:48. > :29:52.you will have read similar testimony from former soldiers on the
:29:53. > :29:56.Internet. This is a widespread complaint and concern of former
:29:57. > :30:00.members of the military. Do you believe that the Israeli army is
:30:01. > :30:04.behaving in a more aggressive way? No, not at all. I think it is
:30:05. > :30:09.behaving actually in quite a cautious way. There could be errors
:30:10. > :30:17.and mistakes, but I can describe to you dozens of events constantly that
:30:18. > :30:24.depict what I'm talking about. Every unit has indepth legal council, we
:30:25. > :30:29.are one of the only armies in the world that is clearly having legal
:30:30. > :30:41.counselling involved in every part of the operation. A few days ago in
:30:42. > :30:45.a school in BethHanun, the army uncovered a launching pad of 24
:30:46. > :30:49.missiles, what are we supposed to do when somebody fires from his home,
:30:50. > :30:53.from his shelter, from his school, from his mosque, at the end what do
:30:54. > :31:00.you do, and you want to know something, in most cases, even major
:31:01. > :31:05.European powers, even major international powers acted in fact
:31:06. > :31:12.in a much more brutal way than the Israelis. But with more than 200
:31:13. > :31:17.children already killed, what is the solution, what is the end, at what
:31:18. > :31:22.point does the Government say we have achieved what we want to
:31:23. > :31:26.achieve? OK, so first of all I'm the leader of the opposition, and my
:31:27. > :31:33.line is that whilst we protect our citizens, and we wanted not to go
:31:34. > :31:38.into this operation at all, nobody. We believe, we, Labour and the peace
:31:39. > :31:43.camp believe that we should be very much proactive on moving on peace
:31:44. > :31:48.with Mahmoud Abbas, with the Palestinian Authority, and weaken
:31:49. > :31:53.Hamas. We are in the midst of a clash of extreme Islam versus
:31:54. > :32:01.moderate nations and a coalition of moderate states that sees Szczesny
:32:02. > :32:04.ISIS on the east, and Hamas on the south, and Hezbollah in the north,
:32:05. > :32:07.that is the real battle in the region. And the battle in the region
:32:08. > :32:12.is a confrontation of a coalition of nations that believes in being in
:32:13. > :32:17.fighting terror and moving towards peace and combatting extreme terror
:32:18. > :32:21.organisations that do not see Israel as the only stop on the way to
:32:22. > :32:26.Europe, and other elements in the free world. Is there really hope of
:32:27. > :32:32.peace if you, as the opposition, think there is no possibility of
:32:33. > :32:35.negotiating with Hamas, which plainly has significant popular
:32:36. > :32:41.support among the 1. 8 million people who live in Gaza? So that's
:32:42. > :32:45.again to be questioned. I mean the people of Gaza are under gun
:32:46. > :32:51.threats. They are not really free to express their opinion. Gaza has been
:32:52. > :32:55.abducted by Hamas in 2005 and they have killed and tortured their
:32:56. > :33:00.colleagues from Fatah and kicked them out and took it over. And they
:33:01. > :33:06.are operating like a base of terror. I do not rule out the possibility
:33:07. > :33:11.that Hamas will kind of revert into becoming a political party within
:33:12. > :33:15.Palestinian politics, but they can't have both. You cannot be a political
:33:16. > :33:23.party on the one hand, and on the other hand having an army of your
:33:24. > :33:26.own do whatever the heck you want, terrorise people all over the region
:33:27. > :33:29.and undermine the whole notion of peace. Hamas refuses to agree or
:33:30. > :33:36.accept a peace agreement with Israel. Thank you very much. Thank
:33:37. > :33:40.you very much. If you use the Internet you are the subject of
:33:41. > :33:50.hundreds of experiments at any given time on every site. That's how
:33:51. > :33:56.websites work. So said the dating site Okcupid today in response to
:33:57. > :34:00.the allegation it has been manipulating their use ires by
:34:01. > :34:05.setting up unsuitable people on dates. It comes after the news that
:34:06. > :34:09.Facebook had conducted a secret psychology experiment on 700,000 of
:34:10. > :34:15.its users. Although some of us might think the best marriages are perhaps
:34:16. > :34:20.always those between people who seem whole low incompatible. This
:34:21. > :34:31.question arises, are they messing with our emotion, when is.
:34:32. > :34:39.I'm not looking for stardom, but really, thank you. She's a hot
:34:40. > :34:45.singer-songwriter, he's a charmingly dis-he willed record executive. Of
:34:46. > :34:49.course Keira Knightly and Mark Ruffelo get it together in this
:34:50. > :35:05.summer's romcom Begin Again. You have my number, right. What about
:35:06. > :35:14.the rest of us, some put their details on dating sites like
:35:15. > :35:19.Okcupid. Hi there, these old threads, just a little bit of sports
:35:20. > :35:25.casual. So subscribers signed up in good faith, you know the kind of
:35:26. > :35:30.thing, GSOH, all my own teeth! Except Okcupid were deliberately
:35:31. > :35:36.setting some of them up on bad matches, where on paper at least
:35:37. > :35:41.they only had 30% compatability. Although they were told by the site
:35:42. > :35:55.it was more like 90% compatability. Parental advisory, a match with Niki
:35:56. > :35:59.Inaj -- Minag, I didn't see that. I'm concerned about the way these
:36:00. > :36:03.sites are manipulating people's mind and emotion, how far are they going
:36:04. > :36:09.with the experiment, the only thing missing it seems to me is a cage. In
:36:10. > :36:13.another one of its called experiments, Okcupid ran profiles
:36:14. > :36:20.with photos but no text and visa versa, and guess what, people went
:36:21. > :36:24.on looks alone. So shallow. Okcupid said: Most ideas are bad, even good
:36:25. > :36:29.ideas could be better. Experiments are how you sort all this out. If
:36:30. > :36:33.you use the Internet you are the subject of hundreds of experiments
:36:34. > :36:38.at any given time on every site. That's how websites work. This comes
:36:39. > :36:43.after Facebook was accused of being unethical for trying to influence
:36:44. > :36:47.the emotions of almost 700,000 users through the news feeds they were
:36:48. > :36:52.exposed to. I think we are just touching the tip of an iceberg here,
:36:53. > :36:55.what went on with phase book again was incredible, dealing with
:36:56. > :37:02.people's psychological problems and here we are people with dating
:37:03. > :37:05.problems. People go on these dating programmes and dating sites and they
:37:06. > :37:07.are already suffering emotional situations and to put them through
:37:08. > :37:28.it again is cruel and unkind. I used to describe some of the sites
:37:29. > :37:32.as a human petri dish in an environment where they didn't feel
:37:33. > :37:34.they were being observed. There are regulations and guidelines in place
:37:35. > :37:38.within an academic environment to deal with that. What we are dealing
:37:39. > :37:43.with now is we are dealing with commercial organisations, for whom
:37:44. > :37:47.they do not have a responsibility to protect their customer, their
:37:48. > :37:51.clients from harm. Frankly, you have signed your life away as soon as you
:37:52. > :37:57.tick the box and say you agree to all the terms and conditions. The
:37:58. > :38:04.rules are being rewritten, or as my date Nikki says, maybe your weird is
:38:05. > :38:08.nigh normal. 100 years ago today the first shots
:38:09. > :38:12.were already being fired in war that would wreck much of the world and
:38:13. > :38:16.leave nine million people dead. Centinary events are under way
:38:17. > :38:19.around the country, but how do we remember that terrible conflict. For
:38:20. > :38:29.most of us poetry has conditioned what we think and how we see those
:38:30. > :38:33.terrible days. Owen and Sassoon, the geniuses among the war poets, have
:38:34. > :38:38.their names inscribed in Westminster Abbey and many of our hearts. Why
:38:39. > :38:43.does poetry loom so large in our memory of the war. Does it reveal
:38:44. > :38:49.truth or give a distorted view. We will discuss that in a minute. Here
:38:50. > :38:58.is Sassoon at his most evocative, animated by Newsnight's Aslan
:38:59. > :41:12.Livingston The actor David Harewood reading
:41:13. > :41:19.very well there. The author of Faithful Year, about 1914 is here
:41:20. > :41:23.with an historian who has written extensively about German military
:41:24. > :41:28.planning in the run up to 1914. We do, I think, see the First World
:41:29. > :41:32.War through the prism of Owen and Sassoon, as that period when the
:41:33. > :41:36.flower of England was wiped out in this most futile of all wars. Is
:41:37. > :41:41.that the correct way to see the First World War? No, and I think the
:41:42. > :41:44.problem is that since the 1960s schoolchildren have been taught
:41:45. > :41:48.about the First World War largely through the prism of poetry, it
:41:49. > :41:53.isn't just the poetry, it is the prose literature which started
:41:54. > :41:57.coming out at the end of the 20s, which also portrays a disillusioned
:41:58. > :42:01.view of the war. Of course Sassoon's view of the war has value, but it is
:42:02. > :42:05.an individual response for the war, written for all sorts of reasons,
:42:06. > :42:11.political, class reasons and even sexual reasons, Sassoon's homoerotic
:42:12. > :42:14.impulse conditions the way he takes his mens' side against their
:42:15. > :42:19.officers, and of course he's one of the officer class himself. So we
:42:20. > :42:23.need to look at it as historical evidence. One of the things I hope
:42:24. > :42:28.will emerge from four years of commemoration of the First World War
:42:29. > :42:34.is the idea we should have a non-know lithic -- man know lithic
:42:35. > :42:37.view of the -- monolithic view of the First World War. There were so
:42:38. > :42:41.many people living in this country with different views about going to
:42:42. > :42:45.war and enlisting. Up until this point we have had a very sort of
:42:46. > :42:52.black and white view of how the war was. How is the war seen in Germany?
:42:53. > :42:55.Completely differently to how it is seen in this country. The prism that
:42:56. > :42:59.you described is a different one, the prism is the Second World War
:43:00. > :43:05.and everything that happened before the First World War is just not as
:43:06. > :43:08.important. I have to say until quite recently that was the case. The
:43:09. > :43:12.Second World War which was so much more destructive and horrific for
:43:13. > :43:17.Germans than even the First World War has only recently featured in
:43:18. > :43:20.the popular imagination. In anything resellbling the enthusiasm --
:43:21. > :43:23.resellbling the enthusiasm that exists in the First World War in
:43:24. > :43:27.this country. What do you mean by that, how has that view changed,
:43:28. > :43:33.what sort of enthusiasm do we now see in Germany then? The enthusiasm
:43:34. > :43:38.is primarily around discussing, yet again, the origins of the war, the
:43:39. > :43:45.responsibility. Who is to blame? Who is to blame. What is the prevailing
:43:46. > :43:48.view in Germany? Until probably a year or so ago I would have said
:43:49. > :43:54.most people would agree that Germany was more to blame than others, after
:43:55. > :43:58.decades of debate, historians and the general public had agreed, I
:43:59. > :44:02.think, on that. But with recent publications on the origins of the
:44:03. > :44:07.First World War that has really shifted again. And there is among a
:44:08. > :44:13.large section of the German public and among historian as real relief,
:44:14. > :44:16.if you like, that finally we can brush aside this guilt, at least,
:44:17. > :44:21.not the guilt for the Second World War, but finally after 100 years we
:44:22. > :44:25.can say we did not cause the First World War. But does art condition
:44:26. > :44:30.the way the Germans see the First World War in the way that the poets,
:44:31. > :44:35.thGreat British poets condition the way we see it? Much, much less so I
:44:36. > :44:38.would say. There isn't this tradition of looking at the famous
:44:39. > :44:44.war poets, or the idea that would you teach those kinds of poems at
:44:45. > :44:46.schools, as you mentioned, that doesn't exist, that is partly
:44:47. > :44:51.because after the first world war there was a much more fractured
:44:52. > :44:54.memory of the war. Obviously when we look at the war poets we realise
:44:55. > :44:57.that is one view and there were others, but it has been boiled down
:44:58. > :45:02.for most people to one view, that never happened in Germany, it was
:45:03. > :45:06.always a fought over memory. So, help us out here, the war poets are
:45:07. > :45:11.wrong, what is the right way of seeing the First World War? The war
:45:12. > :45:15.poets are not wrong, but they only represent one point of view. What
:45:16. > :45:19.historians in Britain are particularly exercised about is the
:45:20. > :45:23.idea that the war was completely futile, when we get to 2018 it will
:45:24. > :45:29.be interesting to see exactly what national commemoration will take
:45:30. > :45:33.place of the 100 years, the 100 days of Britain's march to victory,
:45:34. > :45:38.because historians are exercised that 1918 is a forgotten victory in
:45:39. > :45:43.Britain's history because Britain won the war.
:45:44. > :45:50.Just to be clear about this, what is your own view about who was more to
:45:51. > :45:55.blame for the origin? Good gracious! Nice easy question? Well I suppose
:45:56. > :46:00.it is the ministers around the Kaiser I think are to blame. They
:46:01. > :46:03.had a very strong idea of the need to go to war as soon as possible. I
:46:04. > :46:07.think you sort of agree with that don't you? I would say they are more
:46:08. > :46:11.to blame than others but not exclusively so, you can attribute
:46:12. > :46:15.blame to other Governments I would definitely start in Germany and
:46:16. > :46:21.Austria and Hungary. That is it for tonight. We leave you with the work
:46:22. > :46:24.of the photography artist Greg Siegel who took pictures of family
:46:25. > :46:29.and friends lying down in a collection of their own rubbish, is
:46:30. > :46:31.this a metaphor for my debut on Newsnight. I fear it might be, good
:46:32. > :47:05.night. Hello there, I think for most of us
:47:06. > :47:09.tomorrow a similar day, which means northern parts of the UK, brisk
:47:10. > :47:12.winds blowing in from the west, bringing a scattering of showers,
:47:13. > :47:15.best of the dry and sunny weather the further south you are. So
:47:16. > :47:16.through the afternoon, I think across Northern Ireland, still the
:47:17. > :47:17.chance