:00:07. > :00:12.A hammer blow to David Cameron, a Foreign Office minister quits over
:00:13. > :00:16.the Government's position on Gaza. Our current policy on Gaza is
:00:17. > :00:20.morally indefensible, that it is not in our interests, it is not in
:00:21. > :00:24.British interests, and that it will have consequences for us both
:00:25. > :00:30.internationally and here at home. Who won the first fierce low-fought
:00:31. > :00:35.TV debate between Alex Salmond and Alastair Darling over Scotland's
:00:36. > :00:38.future. Mr Salmond do you agree with David Cameron or not. I was going to
:00:39. > :00:42.make another small point. Do you agree with David Cameron or not. Let
:00:43. > :00:51.me answer your question. Do you agree with him or not, it is yes or
:00:52. > :00:54.no. A deadly disease is sweeping through west Africa, do we need
:00:55. > :00:59.radical solutions to deal with it. We need to think about possible
:01:00. > :01:06.tools like experimental drugs and vaccines. The app that makes Twitter
:01:07. > :01:18.look like War and Peace, it is Yo, I will be speaking to its creator in
:01:19. > :01:22.words of more than two letters. Good evening, there is finally a
:01:23. > :01:24.ceasefire in Gaza, but the reverbations of the conflict are
:01:25. > :01:27.stirring a political battle within the British Government. It is rare
:01:28. > :01:31.minister resigns on a matter of principle, but today the Foreign
:01:32. > :01:36.Office minister, Baroness Warsi did just that in starkly critical terms.
:01:37. > :01:40.She tweeted that she could no longer support Government policy on the war
:01:41. > :01:43.in Gaza. And in a letter to the Prime Minister wrote that "our
:01:44. > :01:48.approach and language during the current crisis is morally
:01:49. > :01:50.indefensible and is not in Britain's national interest". The Prime
:01:51. > :01:57.Minister said in response that he had been consistently clear and
:01:58. > :02:00.calls for peace. Tonight the divisis seem to have beepened, with Nick
:02:01. > :02:06.Clegg calling for a suspension of arms export licenses to Israel. We
:02:07. > :02:12.will debate all of this tonight, but we have this report containing some
:02:13. > :02:15.flash photography. Beneath the certificate Rhone facade
:02:16. > :02:19.of Government, tension has simmered over Gaza for week, and today in
:02:20. > :02:27.Westminster it finally burst into the open with the resignation of
:02:28. > :02:30.Baroness Warsi. Over the last few weeks I have done everything I can
:02:31. > :02:34.at formal and informal meetings trying to convince our colleagues
:02:35. > :02:38.that our current policy is morally indefensible, that it is not in our
:02:39. > :02:41.interests, it is not British interests, and it will have
:02:42. > :02:45.consequences for us internationally and here at home. But in the end I
:02:46. > :02:50.felt the Government's position wasn't moving, therefore I had to,
:02:51. > :02:54.on a point of principle, resign. In her resignation letter to the Prime
:02:55. > :03:07.Minister, the Baroness lambasted the Government's stance on Gaza.
:03:08. > :03:12.Once a standard bearer in the Conservative Party's quest for
:03:13. > :03:16.voters from minorities, the former chairman has become a political
:03:17. > :03:21.headache. So why did the Prime Minister take such an uncritical
:03:22. > :03:25.attitude towards Israel over recent week, risking her fury and that of
:03:26. > :03:34.millions of voters. David Cameron has in the past, like in, likened
:03:35. > :03:38.Gaza to a prison camp when he was leader the last time Israel was
:03:39. > :03:42.involved in an intervention he described it as disproportionate,
:03:43. > :03:47.he's not going that far any more. It might be that he listening a lot to
:03:48. > :03:51.the regimes in the region. Very much less critical of Israel than
:03:52. > :03:56.European Governments. Perhaps, because like Israel they see Hamas,
:03:57. > :03:59.ISIS, Al-Qaeda and other extremist groups in the region as more of a
:04:00. > :04:03.threat than we do. There is division within the coalition over whether to
:04:04. > :04:09.accuse Israel publicly of possible war crimes. Indeed Britain, along
:04:10. > :04:12.with the US and Israel, may have been dissuading the Palestinian
:04:13. > :04:17.Authority from taking its case to the International Criminal Court.
:04:18. > :04:21.Well, the Palestinian Foreign Minister was there today and said
:04:22. > :04:25.they are about to do that. But they haven't yet, and for so long as the
:04:26. > :04:30.Palestinians don't go for full membership of the ICC there is
:04:31. > :04:35.little chance of a war crimes investigation taking off. Using the
:04:36. > :04:41.term "proportionate" or not using the term "proportionate" or
:04:42. > :04:48."disproportionate" is a highly sensitive political issue. The term
:04:49. > :04:51.though not used in the 1977 Geneva protocols describes in ways that we
:04:52. > :04:58.all understand what is one side and the other of the lawful line. It is
:04:59. > :05:01.not an easy line to draw, in fact it is extremely difficult line to draw.
:05:02. > :05:04.Once you say something is disproportionate, you are saying the
:05:05. > :05:11.person who did that is acting unlawfully. Tonight w a ceasefire
:05:12. > :05:15.taking hold in Gaza, evidence of the continuing fight within the
:05:16. > :05:20.coalition. With the Lib Dems pushing for an arms embargo on Israel. I
:05:21. > :05:27.believe that the export licenses should now be suspended, and working
:05:28. > :05:31.with Vince Cable in this, it is his department in Government that
:05:32. > :05:35.administers these export licenses, he and I both believe that the
:05:36. > :05:40.actions of the Israeli military are overstepping the mark in Gaza,
:05:41. > :05:44.breaching the conditions of those export licenses and that's why we
:05:45. > :05:47.want to see them suspended, pending a wider review in whether they
:05:48. > :05:52.should be revoked more permanently in the long run. And there is
:05:53. > :05:58.another point where the Lib Dem leader differs from David Cameron,
:05:59. > :06:02.seen here visiting Bethlehem, in labelling the Israeli action
:06:03. > :06:08."disproportionate" Nick Clegg has flagged up a belief that war crimes
:06:09. > :06:12.may have taken place. A factory near Birmingham making drone component
:06:13. > :06:16.force Israel was the scene of protests today. Under pressure, the
:06:17. > :06:20.Government says licenses for arms sales to Israel are now under
:06:21. > :06:26.review. The British fall-out from the Middle East conflict is just
:06:27. > :06:31.starting. Its consequences could be legal, economic and above all
:06:32. > :06:35.political. Joining us from Edinburgh is the
:06:36. > :06:38.former leader of the Liberal Democrats, and here in the studio is
:06:39. > :06:41.Douglas Murray the journalist and writer. First of all, do you think
:06:42. > :06:46.Jose Manuel Barroso was right to resign? Well, if she felt as
:06:47. > :06:50.strongly as she expressed herself in the letter I don't think there was
:06:51. > :06:54.any alternative open to her. Let me say I agree with her judgment that
:06:55. > :06:57.it is morally indefensible and against our interests, but I would
:06:58. > :07:00.go further than that and say I think it is against the interests of
:07:01. > :07:07.Israel as well. Because how can you build any kind of peace either
:07:08. > :07:11.temporary or lasting, based upon the kind of film and the kind of scenes
:07:12. > :07:15.we have seen on our television screens. Essentially what is
:07:16. > :07:18.happening in Gaza is that the infrastructure is being
:07:19. > :07:22.systematically taken apart. If that is the feeling of the most senior
:07:23. > :07:25.Liberal Democrat to Nick Clegg, which it clearly is, he's not going
:07:26. > :07:32.to resign, but isn't it rather surprising that no senior Lib Dem,
:07:33. > :07:38.feeling so strongly, has taken the same road as Baroness Warsi? Each of
:07:39. > :07:42.us make our own individual judgments about these things. But no-one can
:07:43. > :07:48.be in any doubt for example that people like myself or Paddy Ashdown
:07:49. > :07:53.has expressed ourselves as forcibly as we could. If I could pick up on
:07:54. > :07:56.the point the piece raised. I'm in no doubt that what happened is
:07:57. > :08:04.disproportionate. And we will come on to that. Very well. Let me just
:08:05. > :08:07.bring in Douglas Murray now. Do you think that Baroness Warsi's
:08:08. > :08:10.resignation is harmful to David Cameron in all sorts of ways? Not at
:08:11. > :08:15.all. It is fairly well known she has been a bit of a nuisance to him for
:08:16. > :08:18.some time, she has been running effectively an independent policy on
:08:19. > :08:23.a whole range of things which are areas to do with social cohesion and
:08:24. > :08:26.to do with the anti-extremism agenda, which are very much
:08:27. > :08:29.parallel, but different from those of the Prime Minister. Are you
:08:30. > :08:33.saying they are destructive? Oh yes, and many people who have worked with
:08:34. > :08:38.her and many people and voices inside the cabinet and others have
:08:39. > :08:43.been quoted saying, before today, how destructive those parallel
:08:44. > :08:47.policies were. Is her voice one that has echos within the wider country?
:08:48. > :08:50.Certainly it has echos in the divisions of parliament, that is
:08:51. > :08:53.clear with from what was just said now. She must be assuming that
:08:54. > :08:56.people take different opinions in all sorts of things, she must be
:08:57. > :09:00.reflecting a different opinion in the country? It is possible, I mean
:09:01. > :09:03.it has been said for a long time and fairly well known that Baroness
:09:04. > :09:06.Warsi wanted a Ministry of Her own, she didn't get one, it was clear
:09:07. > :09:10.time after time she wasn't going to get one. Are you saying it is sour
:09:11. > :09:13.grapes? It is interesting, she has been trying to create herself as
:09:14. > :09:17.effectively the minister for Muslim, that has been a very noticeable and
:09:18. > :09:22.I think a highly sectarian move on her part. This move and resignation
:09:23. > :09:27.at this point, and let's remember as Israeli troops are withdrawing from
:09:28. > :09:32.Gaza, it is timing and very clear it is a cynical and personal move for
:09:33. > :09:37.future career prospects. If I may say so that is rather a personal and
:09:38. > :09:41.cynical take. There are divisions in the country. Whatever the motives of
:09:42. > :09:46.Jose Manuel Barroso let me make clear I think the real issue is the
:09:47. > :09:52.substance here. And whatever reason she gave to us, if she had been so
:09:53. > :09:59.offensive to David Cameron then he had the opportunity to ask her to
:10:00. > :10:03.ten down at his most recent re-- to step down at his most recent
:10:04. > :10:08.reshuffle. You said the substance there is different language being
:10:09. > :10:12.used and Nick Clegg has talked about disproportionate. You said what
:10:13. > :10:17.happened in the school last week, when the Israelis hit the UN school
:10:18. > :10:21.last week was a violation of international law? I believe that to
:10:22. > :10:24.be the case. What would you do about it? The question is whether or not
:10:25. > :10:30.it can be referred to the International Criminal Court. As was
:10:31. > :10:37.pointed out in the piece that because Palestine is not a member,
:10:38. > :10:39.hasn't signed up then the pollability possibility has been
:10:40. > :10:44.made more difficult. If you want to do it independently you have to
:10:45. > :10:49.achieve a resolution of the Security Council of the United Nations. So
:10:50. > :10:53.the reality is not there. Which you would be pretty certain the United
:10:54. > :11:00.States would oppose. I'm accused of doing something wrong by attributing
:11:01. > :11:05.motives to Baroness Warsi, and he's attributing motive to the state of
:11:06. > :11:10.Israel and an entire country, people have to be careful in positions like
:11:11. > :11:14.Ming and Baroness Warsi have to be extremely careful at times like
:11:15. > :11:17.this. And Baroness Warsi speaks to it, there is a grassroots movement,
:11:18. > :11:22.particularly in the Labour Party movement, of young Muslims in this
:11:23. > :11:27.country who feel very whipped up by this, and people like Ming Campbell
:11:28. > :11:31.and Baroness Warsi have to be careful before they start accusing
:11:32. > :11:36.the nation state of Israel of war crimes. They are crimes going on and
:11:37. > :11:40.committed by Hamas, a terrorist group, and it is very noticeable in
:11:41. > :11:45.this whole debate we do not hear from the Liberal Democrat party or
:11:46. > :11:48.from figures like Baroness Warsi the condemnation of the terrorist group
:11:49. > :11:52.Hamas coming out of the mouth of the beginning of every statement. I will
:11:53. > :11:56.do that now, I did indeed on the occasion when the Foreign Secretary
:11:57. > :12:01.made a statement? The House of Commons. It is wholly unacceptable
:12:02. > :12:04.that Hamas should use rockets in an indiscriminate way. Do you think
:12:05. > :12:09.Israel should be allowed to defend themselves from Hamas. This is not
:12:10. > :12:15.Alastair Darling against Alex Salmond, I regard it as wholly
:12:16. > :12:19.unacceptable, but it is equally wholly unacceptable for a country
:12:20. > :12:22.like Israel, which has the most sophisticated defence capability at
:12:23. > :12:26.its disposal should take action which has the effect of putting the
:12:27. > :12:34.lives of innocent women and children at risk, more than at risk. Can I
:12:35. > :12:39.just turn one other point in Baroness Warsi's letter talked about
:12:40. > :12:43.the consequences of what she says policies in Gaza and radicalisation
:12:44. > :12:46.here in the country, she talked about that having consequences for
:12:47. > :12:49.years, do you agree with that? Remember that's precisely the
:12:50. > :12:55.warning that was given to Tony Blair on the eve of the military action
:12:56. > :12:59.against Iraq. It has also been publicly stated by the Intelligence
:13:00. > :13:05.Services in this country that they are much concerned about
:13:06. > :13:11.radicalisation. That being... It is saying agree with my views. I will
:13:12. > :13:15.finish my point even if Douglas Murray won't listen to it. Briefly,
:13:16. > :13:19.let him finish. I'm just saying this, radicalisation is something
:13:20. > :13:25.which presents the most clear and imminent danger to the security of
:13:26. > :13:29.this country and anything... Ministers shouldn't be helping to
:13:30. > :13:34.whip it up. Do listen for heaven's sake, anything which adds to that or
:13:35. > :13:38.brings any encouragement to that radicalisation, is wholly against
:13:39. > :13:43.our interests and security of any of our citizens. Including accusing
:13:44. > :13:46.Israel of war crimes. No sooner was the referendum of Scottish
:13:47. > :13:50.independence announced than negotiations about who would and who
:13:51. > :13:56.wouldn't take part in TV debates kicked off. Alex Salmond, the first
:13:57. > :14:01.minister of Scotland would only debate with David Cameron, he
:14:02. > :14:07.refused, the SNP held that line for a long time, but six weeks away from
:14:08. > :14:11.the vote Salmond has sparred with Alastair Darling, in the Better
:14:12. > :14:15.Together campaign in a two-hour televised debate. It ended half an
:14:16. > :14:19.hour ago, here are some of the highlights. Making the case for
:14:20. > :14:24.independence is the First Minister Alex Salmond and making the case for
:14:25. > :14:35.the union is the leader of Better Together, Alastair Darling, please
:14:36. > :14:39.welcome them. For more than half of my life Scotland has been governed
:14:40. > :14:43.by parties that we didn't elect at Westminster. And these parties have
:14:44. > :14:50.given us from everything from the poll tax to the bedroom tax, and
:14:51. > :14:56.they are the same people who through project fear are telling us this
:14:57. > :15:01.country can't run our own affairs. Let's say with confidence, with
:15:02. > :15:04.pride, with optimisim, no thanks to the risks of independence, and let's
:15:05. > :15:12.have the best of both worlds, not just for us, but for generations to
:15:13. > :15:15.come. How can we build a just society when we have policies
:15:16. > :15:19.imposed upon us from Westminster that Scottish MPs voted against but
:15:20. > :15:24.did not have the power to stop, so my vision is for a prosperous
:15:25. > :15:27.economy but also for a just society in Scotland. I want you to do
:15:28. > :15:31.something that will be really difficult, I want you to contemplate
:15:32. > :15:40.for just one minute the fact you might be wrong. What is Plan B. If
:15:41. > :15:43.you don't get a currency union, what is it we are going to have had
:15:44. > :15:48.instead, please tell us we need to know. I will do something more
:15:49. > :15:54.difficult than contemplate that I'm wrong, I'm contemplating you were
:15:55. > :16:00.right last year when you said it was logical and desirable. I believe you
:16:01. > :16:03.still think it is logical and desirable that last year was before
:16:04. > :16:07.we were in the campaign period, and therefore during the campaign period
:16:08. > :16:14.you, George Osborne, the unionist parties, have to engage in project
:16:15. > :16:18.fear and tell people that something that was logical desirable last year
:16:19. > :16:21.isn't this year. Any eight-year-old can tell you the flag of the
:16:22. > :16:26.country, the capital of the country and its currency, I presume the flag
:16:27. > :16:30.is the saltire and the capital Edinburgh, you can't tell us what
:16:31. > :16:34.currency we will have, what will an eight-year-old make of that. David
:16:35. > :16:40.Cameron has said supporters of independence will always be able to
:16:41. > :16:43.cite I examples of small independent economies across Europe, it would be
:16:44. > :16:47.wrong to suggest that Scotland could not be another successful
:16:48. > :16:51.independent country. But do you agree with David Cameron on that?
:16:52. > :16:54.Small countries do have to make sure they balance the books. Do you agree
:16:55. > :17:01.with him, everybody has to balance the books. Your own figures we have
:17:02. > :17:04.a much bigger deficit at the time you want independence from the rest
:17:05. > :17:08.of the UK, that would mean difficult decisions which you are not prepared
:17:09. > :17:14.to face up with. Do you agree with David Cameron or not I feel like
:17:15. > :17:20.Jeremy Paxman and Michael Howard here. You are more like Michael
:17:21. > :17:23.Howard than Jeremy Paxman, you are not answering the question. Far too
:17:24. > :17:28.much of the debate has been characterised by guess work, blind
:17:29. > :17:33.faith and crossed fingers, that is no way to decide the future for our
:17:34. > :17:36.children. Voting question is ambition over fear, telling the
:17:37. > :17:40.world that Scotland is an equal nation that carries itself with
:17:41. > :17:46.belief and confidence, this is our moment, let's take it. Elements of
:17:47. > :17:56.the debate there from earlier tonight, joining me from Glasgow we
:17:57. > :18:02.have our guests. Here in the studio is Isabelle Hardman, from the
:18:03. > :18:09.Spectator live blogging the debate tonight. On points, how do you think
:18:10. > :18:13.that went? I think actually it was no game-changer for starters. We
:18:14. > :18:17.have had a group of young voters here all night who all say they are
:18:18. > :18:23.more undecided than they were at the start. It was successful for
:18:24. > :18:29.Alastair Darling to the extend that the subject matter continued to be
:18:30. > :18:33.money, pensions, currency, all the aspects to an extent which would be
:18:34. > :18:37.favoured by the unionist cause. And Alex Salmond didn't manage to get
:18:38. > :18:41.the values, the reasons that anybody would really want to have an
:18:42. > :18:45.independent Scotland as firmly at the centre of the debate as Alastair
:18:46. > :18:49.Darling managed to get money. So I think to that degree you would have
:18:50. > :18:54.to say it began to move Alastair Darling's way. But having said that,
:18:55. > :18:57.I think there is no silver bullet in the argument or in the debate and it
:18:58. > :19:02.will be the conversations people have around it that matter. Did you
:19:03. > :19:06.get the sense it was a moment tonight where six weeks out this
:19:07. > :19:11.actually would have energised a lot of people in terms of taking part in
:19:12. > :19:15.the debate? I think so actually, I was in the hall admittedly in the
:19:16. > :19:20.cheap seats up the top, but it did feel quite electric at points.
:19:21. > :19:22.Particularly in the cross-examination when Alastair
:19:23. > :19:26.Darling cross-examined Alex Salmond and visa versa. That is when it
:19:27. > :19:32.really came to life. And overall I think you know Alex Salmond is an
:19:33. > :19:38.experienced television performer, he was much slicker and confident,
:19:39. > :19:41.Darling was very nervous initially. Over the cross-examination things
:19:42. > :19:44.came to light and Darling came to light and we got into the
:19:45. > :19:49.substantive issues. It is those issues that a lot of undecided
:19:50. > :19:53.voters are interested in. On the substantive issues, did you get a
:19:54. > :19:58.sense no matter if you are for or not, a lot of people south of the
:19:59. > :20:00.border couldn't see sadly is Scotland very much feels like a
:20:01. > :20:02.different country? That was certainly the impression that Alex
:20:03. > :20:05.Salmond wanted to create, particularly in his closing
:20:06. > :20:08.statement. He talked about Scotland being a more equal country and that
:20:09. > :20:12.could be the impression it sold to the rest of the world. I think this
:20:13. > :20:15.is part of the SNP's campaign in general. It wants to create the
:20:16. > :20:20.impression that Scotland is separate. And to a certain extent it
:20:21. > :20:23.has succeeded in that, whether or not Scotland votes to go
:20:24. > :20:26.independent. As was said, on the hard questions, the economic
:20:27. > :20:30.questions, where there aren't any silver bullets there were very, very
:20:31. > :20:37.strong exchanges, on the question of currency, and also on the question
:20:38. > :20:40.of being in or out of Europe. A sense that these, you know, they
:20:41. > :20:44.talk about in the end of the day it will be people voting about identity
:20:45. > :20:49.or whatever, these are hard-headed economic questions aren't they?
:20:50. > :20:53.Absolutely, and they are both issues on which Alex Salmond and the yes
:20:54. > :20:57.campaign has never been particularly strong. I thought Alastair Darling
:20:58. > :21:01.did particularly well on dissecting his position on the currency union.
:21:02. > :21:04.Very curious for Alex Salmond to raise the European Union and go
:21:05. > :21:07.after Alastair Darling on that point. Because again, as I say, he's
:21:08. > :21:12.not on strong ground there. What the debate did was highlight that
:21:13. > :21:15.actually after two years of this referendum debate, two years in
:21:16. > :21:19.which things have been thoroughly raked over, Alex Salmond and the yes
:21:20. > :21:23.campaign are no further forward on the EU and the currency union
:21:24. > :21:27.question. Leslie, it is always a problem isn't it in whatever the
:21:28. > :21:32.referendum is, when there is bed fellow that is don't otherwise
:21:33. > :21:35.agree, you have Alex Salmond harrying Alastair Darling to agree
:21:36. > :21:39.with David Cameron's view that Scotland could be a successful small
:21:40. > :21:43.country, and Alastair Darling found himself in a position of not wanting
:21:44. > :21:47.to agree with David Cameron? That's true, and that was a kind of wobbly
:21:48. > :21:51.moment for Alastair Darling. As was the fact that when he was asked for
:21:52. > :21:56.two definite powers that would be given to Scots if they voted no, he
:21:57. > :22:03.came up with road tax and then some devolution of income tax. Now today
:22:04. > :22:10.we were told there was a new devo more proposal agreed by the three
:22:11. > :22:14.unionist parties. That decision of more devolution welfare wasn't
:22:15. > :22:18.brought to Alastair Darling, that should have been brought up more.
:22:19. > :22:21.There are your perspective, blogging here in London looking at this,
:22:22. > :22:25.where what are the big issues and the big points of contention do you
:22:26. > :22:29.think? The main take away from the debate was the currency union. That
:22:30. > :22:33.was where Darling was particularly strong. Hammering away asking the
:22:34. > :22:36.same question again and again. And the audience helped him, they were
:22:37. > :22:40.confused about Salmond's position and Plan B, whether he actually had
:22:41. > :22:43.one or not. Salmond doesn't want to state whether he has a Plan B
:22:44. > :22:48.because he wants to give the impression that Better Together are
:22:49. > :22:53.cobbling together half truths and misquotes and all their warnings are
:22:54. > :22:57.campaign rhetoric. It also looks as if he hasn't thought about it. Among
:22:58. > :23:01.the other issues pulled out tonight there was oil, immigration, social
:23:02. > :23:05.justice and so forth, how do you think that the tenor of this debate
:23:06. > :23:11.and the areas covered will inform the next one? Obviously both
:23:12. > :23:16.participants will take away from that what they perceived were their
:23:17. > :23:20.weaknesses and their advisers perceive as weaknesses and work on
:23:21. > :23:26.that. Alex Salmond came across at points as frivolous, he has a
:23:27. > :23:29.terrible habit of dredging up newspaper cuttings and off the
:23:30. > :23:34.record things, and aliens he appeared frivolous on that point and
:23:35. > :23:37.will avoid that the next debate. Darling missed a trick by not
:23:38. > :23:42.setting out a clearer vision for after a no vote. It is a problem in
:23:43. > :23:46.any campaign if you are saying Better Together and interpreted in
:23:47. > :23:49.Scotland as a no vote. And Alex Salmond getting trapped on that the
:23:50. > :23:53.positive reasons what you would say would come out if indeed on
:23:54. > :23:57.September 18th Scotland is still part of the United Kingdom. What do
:23:58. > :24:00.you think Leslie would be one of the big things that will happen. Will it
:24:01. > :24:05.return to the issue of currency, people are passionate about this?
:24:06. > :24:09.Here is the thing to say. Actually the whole pro-independence campaign,
:24:10. > :24:13.like myself. I'm not a member of the SNP or a formal member of the yes
:24:14. > :24:17.campaign. There are many political parties voting for yes, but far more
:24:18. > :24:21.people who are no political parties at all. Tomorrow there is a mass
:24:22. > :24:24.canvas of Scotland by the radical independence campaign and they are
:24:25. > :24:30.looking at ten areas where actually no party has actually bothered to
:24:31. > :24:32.canvas for several generations, these folk aren't registered to
:24:33. > :24:36.vote. There is a huge grassroots movement going on here, that is
:24:37. > :24:39.something very difficult for the classic media to get hold of and
:24:40. > :24:45.perhaps even the official campaigns, because it is beneath the radar. To
:24:46. > :24:51.me it is transformational and change always happens like that. A Guardian
:24:52. > :24:56.poll taken straight after the debate put Alastair Darling at 56 and Alex
:24:57. > :24:59.Salmond at 44. Is that what it looked like to you? I think so,
:25:00. > :25:02.partly because Salmond didn't perform as well as he could have
:25:03. > :25:06.done. Do you think he was too tricksy on the questions? The stuff
:25:07. > :25:09.about aliens and the right side of the road was irrelevant, and
:25:10. > :25:12.actually he really needed to have a clear win from tonight. And even if
:25:13. > :25:16.you think it was debatable whether or not he won, that is bad enough
:25:17. > :25:21.for him. Thank you very much, we can go now to Alan Little, who joins us
:25:22. > :25:31.from Glasgow. What was the atmosphere like from where you were
:25:32. > :25:36.watching it? Can you hear me? We will come back to Alan a little
:25:37. > :25:41.later, as soon as we have sound attaching us to Glasgow. Now camera
:25:42. > :25:45.five here I can go to you, thank you one of the unique things about the
:25:46. > :25:50.referendum on Scottish independence is 16-year-olds can vote, for
:25:51. > :25:55.another viewer in tonight's debate we went to meet some of them. A
:25:56. > :25:59.group involved in Generation 2014, a BBC Scotland project to track young
:26:00. > :26:03.people's voting intentions. They have never voted in a national
:26:04. > :26:06.election, but the independence referendum has given 16 and
:26:07. > :26:10.17-year-olds in Scotland their chance. How will these lovers of the
:26:11. > :26:15.selfie, the social media generation vote? I travelled to Glasgow as
:26:16. > :26:26.tonight's debate loomed, to find out. First stop, Motherwell where I
:26:27. > :26:33.met a political ingenue and undecided voter Jessica. I think now
:26:34. > :26:37.it is getting so much closer to the vote everyone is so interested in
:26:38. > :26:40.it, and everyone is talking about it a lot. Even when we were out at the
:26:41. > :26:43.weekend and things it will always turn to the conversation at one
:26:44. > :26:48.point. This is where you get your information about the referendum?
:26:49. > :26:52.Pretty much. It is where everybody will, my age, will probably find out
:26:53. > :26:57.most things. Forget newspapers and television, this generation heads to
:26:58. > :27:02.social media as it weighs up how to vote. I'm on Facebook nearly 24
:27:03. > :27:06.hours a day. Usually I will just go on and it will just be there. This
:27:07. > :27:11.is about the debate, do you recognise that man? I know Alex
:27:12. > :27:15.Salmond quite well. What about this one? Not too familiar with him.
:27:16. > :27:19.Alastair Darling. So everybody, there is a really important debate
:27:20. > :27:25.going on tonight, does anyone know what it is? Yes. Yes. Brilliant, you
:27:26. > :27:31.are all very clued in. These under-18s are on a council-run
:27:32. > :27:35.course learning about entrepeneurialism.
:27:36. > :27:44.How many are going to vote yes, who will vote no who is undecided? I
:27:45. > :27:49.have got a few deal-breakers, mainly the EU-NATO issue. Because Scotland
:27:50. > :27:54.currently is part of the greater UK we are also under NATO and the EU
:27:55. > :27:57.subsequently, and if we were to leave then both bodies have said it
:27:58. > :28:02.would be very difficult to reapply, and it could take up to five or
:28:03. > :28:06.eight years to get back into the EU. As a 16-year-old you are worried
:28:07. > :28:10.about that? Yeah. Because I think growing up it is like a backing
:28:11. > :28:15.almost of kind of having a bigger body behind the country rather than
:28:16. > :28:21.just, if you want to be independent you don't want to be on your own at
:28:22. > :28:25.the same time. Whether university tuition fees would stay free in a
:28:26. > :28:32.future Scotland was another big question. These youngsters were
:28:33. > :28:37.enfranchised by Alex Salmond but the polls show more plan to vote no
:28:38. > :28:40.rather than yes. Some say because the social media generation are more
:28:41. > :28:44.linked into the outside world. They are the first generation that has
:28:45. > :28:47.grown up always with networked computers, they use social media,
:28:48. > :28:52.they talk to people elsewhere, they order something from abroad and it
:28:53. > :28:55.arrives within one or two days. It plays into their voting intentions.
:28:56. > :29:04.Not that they feel less Scottish as such, but that they think less about
:29:05. > :29:08.smaller scales. Borders don't make as much sense to them. Our last
:29:09. > :29:12.young voter says she's not Scottish or British first just a human being.
:29:13. > :29:18.I am glade that we have been given this vote, because ideally it is a
:29:19. > :29:22.better future and I think, it is about our future and we should have
:29:23. > :29:25.a say in it. It is daunting, I'm voting but undecided right now. I
:29:26. > :29:29.don't have that long left to make a decision. There are around half a
:29:30. > :29:33.million voters who like these three haven't yet decided how they will
:29:34. > :29:36.vote. So what did they think of tonight's debate. I think it is
:29:37. > :29:41.quite interesting and you do get to see both sides. I think it has been
:29:42. > :29:45.really interesting at times, but it can be boring because it is like
:29:46. > :29:49.repetitive, they keep asking the same questions, he keeps giving the
:29:50. > :29:54.same answers. No-one is actually giving you a definitive answer, you
:29:55. > :30:00.are left there to sit and wonder by yourself. Scotland's under-18s make
:30:01. > :30:04.up 2. 5% of the electorate. As the polls narrow, their voices will play
:30:05. > :30:07.an important role in their country's future.
:30:08. > :30:11.They just keep asking the same questions. I'm joined by Alan Little
:30:12. > :30:16.and try to ask him the same way west again! What was the big take out
:30:17. > :30:19.tonight? I can hear you now. If anybody had asked most political
:30:20. > :30:22.observers earlier on this evening who they expected to win this debate
:30:23. > :30:27.they would have said that Alex Salmond is the superior debater and
:30:28. > :30:30.that is not even Alastair Darling's most fervent supporters would
:30:31. > :30:34.concede campaigning of this sort on the stump is not his greatest
:30:35. > :30:38.strength. You wouldn't have thought that from the way the debate went.
:30:39. > :30:43.We learned that Better Together have bane donned old fears, hammering
:30:44. > :30:47.away on the question of the currency will be perceived as negative, there
:30:48. > :30:54.is a danger it might be counter-productive. We saw Alastair
:30:55. > :30:59.Darling going for the jugular. We learned whether or not it is fair or
:31:00. > :31:03.just the burden of proof is very much on the side of those who want
:31:04. > :31:08.radical change and the yes campaign. On the currency question it is their
:31:09. > :31:12.weakness suit and Better Together have really taken the gloves off on
:31:13. > :31:15.that and on the question of the European Union membership. They have
:31:16. > :31:19.abandoned the fears they had earlier in the year that it might not be
:31:20. > :31:25.working that Scots might vote against it. And I think they will be
:31:26. > :31:28.concluding tonight that they should keep hammering away at that, keep
:31:29. > :31:32.pulling at that thread and that will get them over the finishing line.
:31:33. > :31:35.And the nationalists must be looking at their strategy and saying we have
:31:36. > :31:40.to have an answer to this currency question and pretty soon.
:31:41. > :31:47.Thank you very much indeed. It is a measure of the fear of the spread of
:31:48. > :31:51.the Ebola outbreak in west Africa that British Airways has suspended
:31:52. > :31:56.lights to like beeria and Sierra Leone until the end of the month,
:31:57. > :31:59.due to it has said to the deteriorating health condition in
:32:00. > :32:04.the country. The outbreak has claimed 887 people across west
:32:05. > :32:10.Africa, and the pace of the infection is fastest in Liberia, two
:32:11. > :32:14.infected aid woers returned to the US have in isolation and given doses
:32:15. > :32:18.of an experimental treatment to boost the immune system. Independent
:32:19. > :32:24.voices are calling for the pharmaceutical industry to put more
:32:25. > :32:28.resources into creating a vaccine to treat the deadly virus.
:32:29. > :32:35.At the centre of this outbreak is fear and anxiety. Ebola has now
:32:36. > :32:38.spread beyond the rural village where is it had been contained to
:32:39. > :32:47.the vast coastal cities of west Africa. Sandra Smiley has just
:32:48. > :32:53.returned from one of the capitals. There is a lot of fear and stigma
:32:54. > :32:57.around the disease, and in some of the areas that are affected by
:32:58. > :33:04.Ebola. The example of this is the story of Finda Marie, a 33-year-old
:33:05. > :33:09.woman demonstrating symptoms of Ebola, her sister called in an alert
:33:10. > :33:14.and she was tested and tested positive two, days later she died.
:33:15. > :33:17.Some of the members of her sister's community blamed her sister for her
:33:18. > :33:22.death because they said that if she had stayed at home then she would
:33:23. > :33:24.have lived. There are a lot of misconceptions around healthcare
:33:25. > :33:33.workers in these communities, and that is hindering MSF and other
:33:34. > :33:38.NGO's work. Nearly 900 have died from the disease across four
:33:39. > :33:41.countries. Ebola spreads by direct contact with bodily fluids, the
:33:42. > :33:46.current outbreak is killing around half of those infected. Today a
:33:47. > :33:49.second American missionary landed back in Atlanta for treatment. The
:33:50. > :33:53.condition of both aid workers is said to have suddenly improved after
:33:54. > :33:58.they were offered a highly experimental drug, not available to
:33:59. > :34:02.locals. Tell us about these details that you have learned about this
:34:03. > :34:08.experimental and some are even saying secret serum? US TV networks
:34:09. > :34:13.have been full of talk about a wonder drug, they are attributing
:34:14. > :34:18.any improvement to that alone, but that is impossible. One reason Ebola
:34:19. > :34:24.generates so much fear is there is no single cure, advantage s are in
:34:25. > :34:28.development with human trials in the autumn, not quick enough for some.
:34:29. > :34:31.Tomorrow in a letter to the Wall Street Journal, a group of
:34:32. > :34:34.influential scientist also call for treatment to be fast-tracked and
:34:35. > :34:39.west African countries to be given the chance to try new untested
:34:40. > :34:42.drugs. This time we seem to be in an exceptional situation, we have had
:34:43. > :34:46.an epidemic that has gin going on for six months or possibly longer f
:34:47. > :34:53.anything it is going out of control rather than being contained. And
:34:54. > :34:59.rereally need to be thinking about other possible tools we could be
:35:00. > :35:02.using here. Part of the problem is large drug companies have little
:35:03. > :35:07.incentive to develop new medicines. The number of Ebola victims in
:35:08. > :35:10.Africa is still tiny compared to major western killers like heart
:35:11. > :35:15.disease and cancer. I think the question fundamentally is then also
:35:16. > :35:19.about limited resources and how does a pharmacompany decide to spend its
:35:20. > :35:23.money and where to invest. And also from our benefit is something like
:35:24. > :35:26.heart disease, for instance, kills 160,000 people a year in the UK,
:35:27. > :35:31.that is one every three minute, approximately. So you know if you
:35:32. > :35:34.had a choice about where you can meet the needs best of a large
:35:35. > :35:41.population, that is where you would invest. It may take concerted
:35:42. > :35:45.international effort to find a cure with the World Health Organisation
:35:46. > :35:48.taking the lead. Until then Ebola will keep rearing its head and
:35:49. > :35:56.generating shock headlines in the west and genuine fear across large
:35:57. > :35:59.swathes of the developing world. As mobile phones allow us to do more
:36:00. > :36:04.and more, it is pretty surprising that the latest communications
:36:05. > :36:08.sensation is utterly minimal. A free app launched on April fool's day,
:36:09. > :36:12.which has been downloaded more than two million times. Has the single
:36:13. > :36:17.purpose of being able to send to other users one word, unchanging,
:36:18. > :36:22.uncorruptible, and that word is "yo", the app has been valued at $10
:36:23. > :36:27.million, is it brilliant or bonkers. In a minute we will hear from the
:36:28. > :36:32.man behind it. First we discover the joy of Yo.
:36:33. > :36:36.The text-based communication we are all addicted to has a big
:36:37. > :36:42.limitation, context. You can't see the sender's face, were they being
:36:43. > :36:47.ironic, playful, serious, angry, passionate, despairing or something
:36:48. > :36:54.else entirely. Perhaps the ultimate mobile app is this one, Yo, here is
:36:55. > :36:59.mobile messages that is all context. What does it mean? You tell me. Wait
:37:00. > :37:02.it works is simple, after I was downloaded the app I can find out
:37:03. > :37:08.which of my friends have downloaded it, in this case my producer James.
:37:09. > :37:14.I can send him a message, Yo, and if he wants he can reply. There you go,
:37:15. > :37:21.Yo, if I want to send another one I can send it, Yo, did I mention this
:37:22. > :37:27.was launched on April fool's day. If it is a joke it is a pretty serious
:37:28. > :37:31.one, a million downloads and $1. 5 million of investment, and a
:37:32. > :37:39.valuation of the company between $5 million and $10 million. Is it a
:37:40. > :37:44.quays of Yo bubble, aisle lean is a partner in the venture capital
:37:45. > :37:50.company, she says we are in very different territory than the late
:37:51. > :37:54.dotcom bubble of the 1980s. You have mastive user communities and
:37:55. > :37:57.audiences that people with monetise, you are seeing a lot of engagment
:37:58. > :38:00.and people are coming back and using Yo again and again and again. There
:38:01. > :38:04.is more fundamentals behind what people are doing and growth pushing
:38:05. > :38:06.what is on the Internet and the app economy. I don't think it is the
:38:07. > :38:12.same thing as last time. According to one study the mobile app economy
:38:13. > :38:16.is now worth $25 billion a year, up from roughly zero six years ago. All
:38:17. > :38:20.over the world there are thousands of teams working on the assumption
:38:21. > :38:26.that we barely have begun to explore the potential of the app. Kate Rider
:38:27. > :38:30.is developing Maven, a health app for women. One of the biggest
:38:31. > :38:35.problems in healthcare is access, having health on your mobile device
:38:36. > :38:42.means you can access it from anywhere, and you can connect
:38:43. > :38:45.instaly with our product and healthcare providers, or
:38:46. > :38:49.information, you can keep your health data on the phone so yeah, I
:38:50. > :38:54.mean definitely mobiles are the centre of a lot of the innovation in
:38:55. > :38:58.healthcare. But that doesn't mean that every idea will succeed.
:38:59. > :39:04.Although there are some blockbusters, many, indeed most of
:39:05. > :39:11.the 700,000 plus apps available on app stores fail to make money. And,
:39:12. > :39:16.what about Yo, go or no? We will find out now, because joining me
:39:17. > :39:20.from San Francisco we have our guest, the founder of Yo. Good
:39:21. > :39:26.evening to you. It was launched as David said on April fools day, was
:39:27. > :39:32.it first a light-hearted joke? No, it wasn't a joke. It was launched on
:39:33. > :39:38.the 1th of April, but for us it was a fun app that we used and we saw a
:39:39. > :39:42.lot of use case force it. We saw its potential right from the start. We
:39:43. > :39:46.didn't think about all the use case, but from the beginning we
:39:47. > :39:50.immediately saw that people liked using it. There are a lot of case
:39:51. > :39:54.force it. How did you come up with the idea, did you do market research
:39:55. > :40:00.or have a brain wave? It wasn't like that. My partner asked me to do a
:40:01. > :40:03.app for him to test one big button that sends a push notification in
:40:04. > :40:07.order to summon his personal assistant. In the beginning I
:40:08. > :40:11.thought it was a silly idea and I didn't want to do it. Two weeks
:40:12. > :40:16.later he came again and asked me to do it again. And then I remembered
:40:17. > :40:20.that I have a friend which I basically talk with him in the same
:40:21. > :40:27.manner, we text each other messages with no confident, for basically
:40:28. > :40:32.texting each other "yo". I like that it started as a summons to a PA. In
:40:33. > :40:36.the relatively early stages what applications apart from saying hi to
:40:37. > :40:40.your friends might it have? We think of the Yo not as an app to say hi to
:40:41. > :40:44.your friend, we think of it as platform. As a platform we open an
:40:45. > :40:47.API and it is public, and other people can use it for a lot of
:40:48. > :40:54.things. For example restaurants can use it to just notify the customers
:40:55. > :40:58.when the table is ready instead of having the customers waiting by the
:40:59. > :41:05.door. Websites that don't have an app can send notifications to their
:41:06. > :41:09.readers. News websites can send notifications. This is basically a
:41:10. > :41:13.communication platform. Currently there is no content, but the
:41:14. > :41:17.notification itself is a message. Do you think it will make you rich? I
:41:18. > :41:21.don't think about that currently. Thank you very much indeed for
:41:22. > :41:27.joining us. It sounds like the stuff of science
:41:28. > :41:30.fiction, send a spacecraft on a 12-year mission to chase down and
:41:31. > :41:36.land on a comet in deep space. This is no Space Oddity, it is real. The
:41:37. > :41:47.European Space Agency Rosetta spacecraft has been pursuing comet,
:41:48. > :41:51.the comet for six billion kilometres. Tomorrow it will get
:41:52. > :42:05.there. We go behind the scenes at Mission Control. Comets can be
:42:06. > :42:08.spectacular objects. But to scientists they are amongst the most
:42:09. > :42:12.valuable objects in our skies, because they can take us back in
:42:13. > :42:19.time to the origins of the Solar System. The formation of the sun and
:42:20. > :42:23.the planets left behind millions of bits of ice and rock spinning around
:42:24. > :42:31.the Solar System and they are what we now call asteroids and comets.
:42:32. > :42:35.That means that comets can help answer the fundamental questions
:42:36. > :42:43.about our own earth's origin, and perhaps the biggest mystery of all
:42:44. > :42:49.is where did all the water come from? It might sound outlandish but
:42:50. > :42:57.the blue planet wasn't always blue. When the earth was a young planet it
:42:58. > :43:01.was searingly hot and volcanic. And any water on the surface would have
:43:02. > :43:08.simply boiled away into space, and with no water there could be no
:43:09. > :43:12.life. But at some point water appeared back on the surface, we
:43:13. > :43:15.became the blue planet and life could emerge in all of its glorious
:43:16. > :43:19.diversity. But finding out where that water came from is a
:43:20. > :43:24.fundamental question. And one we don't know the answer to. Some
:43:25. > :43:28.scientists think there was water trapped under the earth's surface
:43:29. > :43:34.which then seeped out. Many scientists believe that this water
:43:35. > :43:41.comes from space. From the IC comets and asteroids that bombard earth,
:43:42. > :43:45.left over from the beginning of the Solar System. How can we tell if
:43:46. > :43:48.this water came from a comet. Surprisingly it is not impossible.
:43:49. > :43:51.All water has an atomic significanture, little differences
:43:52. > :43:55.that create a finger print. By carefully comparing the water on the
:43:56. > :43:59.comet to that here on earth, we can tell whether they had the same
:44:00. > :44:03.origin or not. But to do that properly we have to land on the
:44:04. > :44:10.comet. Something never before attempted, that is what Rosetta will
:44:11. > :44:17.do and why it is a supremely ambitious mission. Here at Mission
:44:18. > :44:26.Control in Germany, I met up with the man in charge. Rosetta's flight
:44:27. > :44:33.director Andrea. It has been a long journey, hell us how Rosetta has got
:44:34. > :44:38.to the comet? The comet is flying relatively far away from the sun.
:44:39. > :44:43.And our rockets couldn't deliver the spacecraft to such an orbit, we had
:44:44. > :44:47.to use energy from planets in the Solar System to accelerate Rosetta
:44:48. > :44:52.further and further out into the Solar System to reach the comet.
:44:53. > :44:57.This takes time. So Rosetta has spent the last ten years spiralling
:44:58. > :45:01.around the Solar System, flying past the earth, then Mars, then earth
:45:02. > :45:09.twice more, using the gravity of the planets to nudge it into its deep
:45:10. > :45:13.space orbit. Now we are on a trajectory that would fly close to
:45:14. > :45:17.the comet, but we are not exactly on the same orbit around the sun, we
:45:18. > :45:21.have match the two orbits. Without that the comet would fly-past? There
:45:22. > :45:25.would be a fly by, a mission like many others that flew next to comets
:45:26. > :45:30.but that is not what we want to do. We want to reach the comet and stop
:45:31. > :45:36.there and orbit the comet. We had to slow down the spacecraft compared to
:45:37. > :45:39.the comet and slowly approach it, and once we were there we could
:45:40. > :45:46.start the mission. Tomorrow Rosetta will finally reach the comet and
:45:47. > :45:49.begin its exploration. Why is it difficult to go into orbit around a
:45:50. > :45:53.comet? We don't know anything about the comet, the shape, the gravity,
:45:54. > :45:58.so we have to characterise all this. We don't even know the altitude
:45:59. > :46:05.hour, it is rotating. How close with Rosetta get to the comet? We will
:46:06. > :46:10.fly mid-September an area of 30kms and then country to 20kms if the
:46:11. > :46:14.environment will allow it. We still have to explore. Exploring the comet
:46:15. > :46:22.and its environment will initially be done by imaging it. And already
:46:23. > :46:26.the images taken from thousands of kilometres away have thrown up
:46:27. > :46:31.revelation about the comet's shape. We are surprised to see it looks
:46:32. > :46:38.like two bodies sticking together. The most recent ones I have seen
:46:39. > :46:41.make it look like a rubber duck? I like that a lot. It is a surprise
:46:42. > :46:46.and we have to find out why the body looks like this. Just looking at the
:46:47. > :46:52.shape model here, these image, it is hard to understand where you would
:46:53. > :46:57.safely put down this landing. It is the obvious thing to go for the big
:46:58. > :47:02.face here? The tricky thing is the sun coming up or going down. You
:47:03. > :47:05.don't want to land in the dark? You don't want to land in the dark. The
:47:06. > :47:10.lander will basically be dropped on to the surface from a few thousand
:47:11. > :47:15.metres up, because the gravity on the comet is a tiny traction of the
:47:16. > :47:21.gravity here on earth, it will take several hours to fall. It makes for
:47:22. > :47:29.a soft landing but the very weak gravity also presents a problem.
:47:30. > :47:35.Gravity is about 100 millionth of the gravity on the earth. To top it
:47:36. > :47:39.bouncing straight back off the comet we have ice screw that is will dig
:47:40. > :47:43.down as soon as the feet hit the floor. They are not just to secure
:47:44. > :47:47.it, it will make measurements of the surface and measure the seismic
:47:48. > :47:51.qualities of the surface as well. Even that part of the messing, just
:47:52. > :47:56.securing it to the comet is science itself. One of the key tasks for the
:47:57. > :48:02.lander will be to analyse the ice within the comet to see if it
:48:03. > :48:06.matches the water we find on earth. Meanwhile, Rosetta will continue to
:48:07. > :48:12.orbit, staying with the comet as it goes through its closest approach
:48:13. > :48:22.with the sun r duesing vast plumes of gas and dust throwing into the
:48:23. > :48:30.comet's tame we will reproduce the vast tail. Of the comet. It is a
:48:31. > :48:34.risky mission, but if we knew it we wouldn't have to do it. It has huge
:48:35. > :48:39.solar panels and you are flying in windy dons and constant -- windy
:48:40. > :48:43.conditions, so constantly being forced away from the comet. With the
:48:44. > :48:46.mission about to enter its most critical phase, after more than a
:48:47. > :48:51.decade's work for many of the team, there is a palpable sense of
:48:52. > :48:54.excitement amongst astronomers across Europe and at Mission
:48:55. > :48:58.Control. For sure it is one of the most challenging space missions
:48:59. > :49:04.ever. Nobody has ever gone to such an irregular body or active body
:49:05. > :49:07.with the need of such a high accuracy of flying a spacecraft
:49:08. > :49:18.around the body. It is new and unique in the history of space
:49:19. > :49:24.flight. It is fantastic. That's all we have time for, good night.