:00:08. > :00:12.can get it, we found out that Whitehall is paying some people
:00:13. > :00:16.?2,000 a day for advice. Why is the Civil Service secretly now having to
:00:17. > :00:19.blow so much on private consultants? I think there are big questions
:00:20. > :00:24.about whether we are getting value for money from these consultant, not
:00:25. > :00:26.least because there is a severe lack of transparency about what they are
:00:27. > :00:30.actually doing. The Government have to be open and transparent about who
:00:31. > :00:36.is being paid, how much and to do what? Vladimir Putin puts sanctions
:00:37. > :00:42.on us. Should we care? Will we notice? Liam Fox used to be Defence
:00:43. > :00:49.Secretary, he thinks we should send troops to Eastern Europe. And
:00:50. > :00:52.remember this... It is time for something different, something bold,
:00:53. > :00:57.the Big Society is something different and bold. Mentioned it 100
:00:58. > :01:03.times in year 1, this year not so much. Why did Big Society get the
:01:04. > :01:07.chop. We are wedded to the old idea of the market is the answer to the
:01:08. > :01:11.problems, but most of the best people in the parties know that is
:01:12. > :01:20.not true and are looking for an alternative. Who are these people?
:01:21. > :01:25.Here's one. Earlier this year Cabinet Office
:01:26. > :01:30.Minister, Francis Maude claimed he had saved billions of tax-payers'
:01:31. > :01:34.money by reducing the size of the Civil Service. The Government has
:01:35. > :01:39.pledged to be transparent about all public servants earning more than
:01:40. > :01:42.?150,000. But Newsnight has learned through a Freedom of Information
:01:43. > :01:46.request that the Government is paying at least 30 people working
:01:47. > :01:52.across different departments up to ?2,000 day. A detail missing from
:01:53. > :02:00.the salary information released to the public. We're supposed to know
:02:01. > :02:05.who earns the big bucks in Westminster. Everyone knows the
:02:06. > :02:13.Prime Minister is on ?142,000. And that the head of MI 6 gets ?165,000.
:02:14. > :02:19.But now Newsnight can reveal the hidden existence of an elite, whose
:02:20. > :02:27.time is worth more money than anyone els. . We are not allowed to know
:02:28. > :02:31.who they are and what they do, but we have managed to lift the lid a
:02:32. > :02:36.little on their secret world. It has taken months of wrangling with
:02:37. > :02:40.Whitehall official, but we have discovered there are at least 30
:02:41. > :02:45.consultants, working across five Government departments, who are
:02:46. > :02:48.earning between ?1,000-?2,000 day. How often do they work? We don't
:02:49. > :02:53.know, because the Government won't say. But what I have been told is
:02:54. > :02:57.there are consultants here at the Ministry of Defence who have worked
:02:58. > :03:04.for several years on day rates of near enough ?1,000. That could be
:03:05. > :03:08.?240,000 a year. I think people would be extremely concerned about
:03:09. > :03:12.the number of consultants being paid vast amounts of money for merely a
:03:13. > :03:17.day's work in Government. Government is rightly reducing the head count
:03:18. > :03:21.of the Civil Service, but you can't negate those benefits of that
:03:22. > :03:25.reduction in staffing by then paying huge amounts to consultants instead.
:03:26. > :03:29.Do you think we are getting value for money from these consultants? I
:03:30. > :03:32.think there are big questions about whether we are getting value for
:03:33. > :03:35.money from these consultant, not least because there is a severe lack
:03:36. > :03:39.of transparency about what they are actually doing. According to our
:03:40. > :03:44.figures the Department of Transport has ten people earning between
:03:45. > :03:49.?1,000-?2,000 a day. The Ministry of Justice eight, the Department of
:03:50. > :03:56.Energy and climate has five, the Home Office has four, the Treasury 2
:03:57. > :04:02.and the Ministry of Defence 1. But that isn't the only money the
:04:03. > :04:07.MOD has spent, over the last five years it has spent ?1. 1 million for
:04:08. > :04:11.technical support, money that has had to come out of the military's
:04:12. > :04:17.equipment budget. That is the equivalent of one new nuclear
:04:18. > :04:21.submarine or 14 new fighter jets, certainly more than enough to spare
:04:22. > :04:27.the 32,000 jobs that have been lost. No wonder then that the Government
:04:28. > :04:33.promised crackdown. Of course there are things we can simply stop doing,
:04:34. > :04:38.advertising, consultant, IT. Despite the claims there are signs that
:04:39. > :04:43.consultancy culture across Whitehall is alive and thriving. Take the Home
:04:44. > :04:50.Office, last year its bill for consultants and other experts rose
:04:51. > :04:54.from ?65-?90 million. So what is going on? Something like one in five
:04:55. > :04:58.civil servants has left over the past few years, that has caused
:04:59. > :05:02.major problems in terms of operational capacity and resources.
:05:03. > :05:07.And of course cuts are a blunt instrument. So alongside those cuts
:05:08. > :05:12.there has been a very significant erosion of the skills base,
:05:13. > :05:16.exacerbated by the large and growing pay gap with the private sector for
:05:17. > :05:20.key skills, so there is a major recruitment and retention problem in
:05:21. > :05:24.a number of areas, a number of specialist areas across the Civil
:05:25. > :05:29.Service. The Government told Newsnight that spending on
:05:30. > :05:31.consultants has dropped by three-quarters to ?370 million last
:05:32. > :05:36.year. They say they have made good on their pledge. But some people say
:05:37. > :05:41.the picture is a bit more complicated. It is not one single
:05:42. > :05:46.line in the accounts which talk about the costs of external
:05:47. > :05:49.consultant, rather they could be external consultants, technical
:05:50. > :05:54.support, they could be fee-paid staff, they could be interim
:05:55. > :05:59.managers, in other words the picture is obscure. So there are all kinds
:06:00. > :06:02.of pots of money that Government departments can use to pay for
:06:03. > :06:08.consultants to make it difficult for us to know what they are being paid?
:06:09. > :06:11.I believe that is the case, yes. At the Department for Transport they
:06:12. > :06:15.are recruiting a Director of Communications. A job for a temp,
:06:16. > :06:21.apparently, although a well paid one. The row over consultants isn't
:06:22. > :06:26.only about whether the Government should hire them, it is about how
:06:27. > :06:31.many there are and how much they are paid. And whether weir entitled to
:06:32. > :06:35.know the details. -- whether we are entitled to know the details. Here
:06:36. > :06:46.with me to discuss the consultancy culture are my guests.
:06:47. > :06:50.Why do we need any consultants? I think that when you are running
:06:51. > :06:54.public services at times you may need expertise that you need to
:06:55. > :06:57.bring in, you might need to bring that in for a short period of time,
:06:58. > :07:03.so any organisation whether it is in the private or public sector has
:07:04. > :07:10.people that it brings in for that particular time. The thing is with
:07:11. > :07:15.the figures shown they are masking two key issues, the Government has
:07:16. > :07:21.reduced the size of the Civil Service by 20% but hasn't reduced
:07:22. > :07:26.demands, they are asking more rather than less, and pay has fallen
:07:27. > :07:29.significantly behind levels from the private sector. So they have to
:07:30. > :07:33.bring people in on these sorts of arrangements to mask the problems
:07:34. > :07:36.they have over long-term pay. So protecting the interests of your
:07:37. > :07:39.members you are clearly, why aren't they up to the jobs being done by
:07:40. > :07:44.the consultants? It is not a matter of not being up to the job. Any
:07:45. > :07:47.organisation will promote and recruit people from outside. Most
:07:48. > :07:51.organisations, particularly big ones like the Civil Service, have a
:07:52. > :07:55.mixture of staff from outside and inside. Increasingly what the Civil
:07:56. > :07:59.Service is finding is when it goes outside and it tries to recruit, it
:08:00. > :08:04.can't recruit people because it pays a half or a third of what it pays in
:08:05. > :08:07.the private sector. I think it was Margaret Thatcher in 1979 who put
:08:08. > :08:10.the ceiling on what civil servants can earn. This Government has been
:08:11. > :08:14.very keen not to have any of them earning more than the Prime
:08:15. > :08:19.Minister, that ?150,000 ceiling, that is a compelling case, if you
:08:20. > :08:24.can't pay top dollar you can't get top talent? We don't know if that is
:08:25. > :08:27.the case because of the lack of transparency in how the Government
:08:28. > :08:31.is dealing with the issue of bringing in external consultants to
:08:32. > :08:35.do this job. We could say it was good value if the Government could
:08:36. > :08:41.point us to the projects that these external consultants have been
:08:42. > :08:47.brought in to do. Telling us these specific projects have been finished
:08:48. > :08:50.successfully or on track to finish, and that is why we have the
:08:51. > :08:55.consultants in. Government can't do that. Isn't part of the reason why
:08:56. > :09:01.the Government is reluctant to do that, if it is revealed that they
:09:02. > :09:04.paid ?300,000 to get a consultant to do this job you would be on the
:09:05. > :09:09.phone to Fleet Street with the story? Not if the Government could
:09:10. > :09:11.give us information about successful projects completed because of the
:09:12. > :09:16.involvement of those people. At the moment we don't know, we're out of
:09:17. > :09:18.pocket as tax-payers, we don't know where the money is gone and on the
:09:19. > :09:22.other hand the Government is not really able to point us to anything
:09:23. > :09:27.they have done with that money. Neither us nor the Government come
:09:28. > :09:30.out looking good out of this. Are we getting value for money, or is it
:09:31. > :09:34.impossible to say one way or the other? The Government has saved
:09:35. > :09:38.about ?11 billion over the last four years in the Civil Service. The
:09:39. > :09:44.Civil Service continues to provide value for money for the taxpayer, it
:09:45. > :09:49.is reduced by 20% over the last four years without any reduction in
:09:50. > :09:53.demand, I call that good value for money. But the reality of it is, the
:09:54. > :09:56.Government is operating in the market place. When it goes out to
:09:57. > :10:01.recruit or tries to retain staff, people will look at salary level
:10:02. > :10:04.elsewhere, over a decade now it has simply fallen behind the market. We
:10:05. > :10:10.have to spend money to save money effectively? It tough there being a
:10:11. > :10:13.public servant, it is tough managing big public services, and at times I
:10:14. > :10:17.think what that means is you need to make sure that you are retaining and
:10:18. > :10:22.attracting the best talent and with that comes a price tag. That's what
:10:23. > :10:26.the Government wheel has to face up to. What departments are doing is
:10:27. > :10:30.simply masking that by this sort of approach around consultants. We
:10:31. > :10:33.absolutely agree there should be transparency, this is masking a
:10:34. > :10:37.long-term pay problem that Government is just closing its ears
:10:38. > :10:41.to. That is a very good point brought up there, if the Government
:10:42. > :10:46.could tell us we are spending X amount of money per day, almost
:10:47. > :10:50.?2,000 per day on one single person because in the long run it will save
:10:51. > :10:53.us this amount of money, tax-payers would understand and we would know
:10:54. > :10:56.we were getting something for the money we are spending, we are not
:10:57. > :11:02.getting that. How much does it cost to audit and produce the figures you
:11:03. > :11:05.are hoping for, it is the hope that every time someone does an hour for
:11:06. > :11:10.the Government it should be made public? It is straight forward, your
:11:11. > :11:15.researchers had to do an FOI to get these figures out, why not make that
:11:16. > :11:19.transparent. How much does it cost to get the information out there.
:11:20. > :11:26.Toss the Taxpayers' Alliance would leap on them if it was out they were
:11:27. > :11:31.making these sorts of monies? Is anyone out there in private sector
:11:32. > :11:35.worth these sorts of sums? What every job is going to be worth
:11:36. > :11:38.surely will depend on the job involved. For example a great
:11:39. > :11:41.example. In the private sector is anybody worth that sort of money?
:11:42. > :11:44.That is up to the shareholders to decide and they will go through that
:11:45. > :11:48.process. But in the public sector definitely not? In the public sector
:11:49. > :11:51.we are the shareholders, the Government has a responsibility to
:11:52. > :11:54.convince us that the salaries being paid are actually worth it, and that
:11:55. > :11:59.is the only thing that we are saying, really. Be tonight, the UN
:12:00. > :12:04.Security Council held an emergency meeting on Iraq to discuss the rapid
:12:05. > :12:10.advances made by the Islamist militants ISIS across northern Iraq,
:12:11. > :12:13.which have proved so deadly for religious and ethnic minorities in
:12:14. > :12:23.the region. Now President Obama says the US is considering a range of
:12:24. > :12:34.options to help thousands of beleaguered members of the Yazidis.
:12:35. > :12:36.These members of the Yazidi secretary have trapped on a
:12:37. > :12:42.mountainside. They explain their desperation. TRANSLATION: They have
:12:43. > :12:47.blocked the road to the mountains and the road down the mountains,
:12:48. > :12:51.there is no water and people are dying of thirst, children are dying
:12:52. > :12:55.and being buried under the rocks. TRANSLATION: They took girls and
:12:56. > :13:04.raped them, they said that Yazidis have to convert to Islam, this
:13:05. > :13:11.cannot happen. The Yazidis are an ancient sect, the extremists of ISIS
:13:12. > :13:16.consider them devil worshippers. As ISIS has advanced across northern
:13:17. > :13:21.and western Iraq, it has targeted religious and ethnic minorities,
:13:22. > :13:28.some 200,000 Iraqis have been displaced from their homes. In
:13:29. > :13:33.Nineveh, ISIS has purged members of minorities. Last month hundreds of
:13:34. > :13:40.Christians fled moss sell, the major city, after ISIS gave an ultimatum,
:13:41. > :13:45.convert to Islam, pay a special tax or be executed. Thousands of Yazidis
:13:46. > :13:52.have been trapped on a mountainside after fleeing a takeover. Yesterday
:13:53. > :13:56.it was confirmed that ISIS have taken control of Qaraqosh, close to
:13:57. > :14:01.the border of Kurdistan. The US is looking at options to help the
:14:02. > :14:07.Stranded Yazidis, ranging from an air drop of humanitarian supplies to
:14:08. > :14:13.air strikes against the ISIS fighters. This Yazidi is clear what
:14:14. > :14:15.about what he wants from the international community.
:14:16. > :14:19.TRANSLATION: We don't want cars, money, donations or food. We want
:14:20. > :14:22.the international community to get water and food to the trapped
:14:23. > :14:29.Yazidis or to get them out. Otherwise it will be a humanitarian
:14:30. > :14:35.disaster. The world is now watching this humanitarian crisis unfold. But
:14:36. > :14:40.will anyone intervene? To discuss the might of Christians
:14:41. > :14:44.and other minorities in Iraq is Canon Andrew White, the cap lane of
:14:45. > :14:49.St George's Anglican Church in Baghdad, who estimates his own flock
:14:50. > :15:02.has reduced by a sixth in the last decade. Flock
:15:03. > :15:09.What kinds of people are presenting themselves at the church? Over the
:15:10. > :15:16.years we have actually represented everybody, not just Christians, so
:15:17. > :15:23.we have Yazidis, Shia, Sunni, Mandian, all the minority groups
:15:24. > :15:31.represented, and they come regularly to share in worship and their very
:15:32. > :15:40.substantial relief programme that we organise. We have a clinic, we have
:15:41. > :15:46.a school, and we try to provide a very comprehensive service, but now
:15:47. > :15:51.they are all at risk and they all have nothing. But there is a slight
:15:52. > :15:55.delay in the link, my apologies, and thank you for your patience. So
:15:56. > :16:12.people are arriving with nothing in their pockets and nowhere to go? And
:16:13. > :16:16.that is the challenge to help those who have nothing. Over the last few
:16:17. > :16:25.days we have been up here in the north of Iraq trying to ensure that
:16:26. > :16:32.we are providing holistically for all the people from whatever sect or
:16:33. > :16:38.religion despite us being Christian in orientation. We are there for
:16:39. > :16:44.everybody. Everybody is being massacred, slaughtered and what they
:16:45. > :16:53.experience is worse than you could ever imagine. What should the
:16:54. > :17:00.international community be doing to help? I don't know if you can hear
:17:01. > :17:05.me, what would you like to see the international community doing right
:17:06. > :17:13.now? Well, the international community has got to wake up to the
:17:14. > :17:19.needs of the people. Our people, I mean all of the people, they have
:17:20. > :17:26.nothing, they need to be provided for, they need to be given some
:17:27. > :17:32.future and some hope and the international community needs to
:17:33. > :17:38.take seriously their needs and start meeting their needs. So that they
:17:39. > :17:43.are not just left on the side. Finally Father, can you concede of a
:17:44. > :17:46.moment where you might advise your own congregation to quit Iraq, day
:17:47. > :17:54.when perhaps there would be no Christians left in the country at
:17:55. > :18:02.all? I have always said to our people, I'm not going to leave you,
:18:03. > :18:12.don't you leave me. Now I can't say that any longer. If I tell them not
:18:13. > :18:19.to leave I'm saying you have to be prepared to die for your faith. That
:18:20. > :18:27.is what is happening. We have had people's heads chopped off, we are
:18:28. > :18:40.having people convert, we are even having children slaughtered and cut
:18:41. > :18:45.in half. Yes, we have no bananas, I can't quite see novelty songs like
:18:46. > :18:48.that featuring too highly on a Vladimir Putin playlist. But he
:18:49. > :18:53.might soon be singing it in spirit to the Russian people after today's
:18:54. > :18:56.announcement of retaliatory sanctions designed to halt the
:18:57. > :19:00.import of all food from the west. The idea, of course, is this will
:19:01. > :19:05.hurt the west a lot more than the Russians. But has Putin bitten off
:19:06. > :19:12.more than he can chew. Here is our diplomatic editor.
:19:13. > :19:22.Opinion can be treacherous, one minute a leader can be tried
:19:23. > :19:28.bestride the globe and bag the Olympic, the next it has been
:19:29. > :19:32.horribly complicated. A few weeks ago people were hailing Vladimir
:19:33. > :19:36.Putin as a master strategist for outmanoeuvring the west. Now it
:19:37. > :19:39.seems he has a series of interwoven and intractable problems, with
:19:40. > :19:42.Russian separatist in Ukraine and the population of Crimea, and in
:19:43. > :19:46.particular with the Russian economy and how he gets it to move forward
:19:47. > :19:52.under western sanctions. Obviously he's feeling under a certain amount
:19:53. > :19:56.of strain. He's in an eyeball-to-eyeball confrontation
:19:57. > :19:59.with the west. He's aware that the west is richer and better armed n
:20:00. > :20:03.all sorts of ways it could be dominant. On the other hand he's
:20:04. > :20:06.defending what he views as a vital national interest which is
:20:07. > :20:12.protection of Russian interests in Ukraine. He's not going to back down
:20:13. > :20:28.readily. The first issue, the Ukraine conflict. Fighting has now
:20:29. > :20:37.reached the outskirts of dons of Donestk. Does Putin abandon or
:20:38. > :20:44.invade. The head of NATO was urging the Russians not to go in. Russia
:20:45. > :20:50.has massed large forces on the Ukrainian border, to seal the
:20:51. > :21:01.separatist and to use any pretext to intervene even further. So I call on
:21:02. > :21:06.Russia to step back from the brink. But today on sanctions the Russians
:21:07. > :21:11.under the ante, they banned many western foods, responding to recent
:21:12. > :21:14.sanctions from the west. Polish apple growers have been denied a
:21:15. > :21:21.market and are asking their people to eat them as their patriotic duty.
:21:22. > :21:25.And the Baltic Republics too are likely to suffer. But some argue
:21:26. > :21:30.Russian consumers will be the big losers. Mr Putin judges that they
:21:31. > :21:35.can take the pain. Point about Russia, to understand, is that it is
:21:36. > :21:38.a country which can show fantastic solidarity when facing external
:21:39. > :21:42.threats. Look at the Second World War. That is exactly what has shown
:21:43. > :21:46.newspaper the course of the crisis he has the support of over 80% of
:21:47. > :21:49.the Russian people. He's pretty confident, I think, that the Russian
:21:50. > :21:54.public will put up with a certain amount of economic unhappiness in
:21:55. > :21:58.order to stand up for Mother Russia. But the state of the Russian economy
:21:59. > :22:02.still poses big problems. There is capital flight and the confidence of
:22:03. > :22:06.foreign investors has been shaken. It all threatens deep recession. The
:22:07. > :22:11.bigger picture here is Russia's economy was struggling well before
:22:12. > :22:14.the crisis in Ukraine, growth had slowed markedly and the economy was
:22:15. > :22:18.already on the brink ref session. One of the ways that Russia needs to
:22:19. > :22:23.revive its economy is by attracting foreign investment to really raise
:22:24. > :22:30.the quality of technology and the capital stock, and all of these
:22:31. > :22:35.recent developments go against that. This square at the centre of Kiev
:22:36. > :22:39.where Ukraine's revolution began was the scene of fresh trouble today.
:22:40. > :22:44.The Government, long overdue, is trying to clear is. This crisis has
:22:45. > :22:48.already placed President Putin at the centre of an east-west battle.
:22:49. > :22:53.It could still produce a major war in Europe.
:22:54. > :22:59.Liam Fox is the former Defence Secretary who warned back in 2010 of
:23:00. > :23:04.the threat of state-on-state warfare from Russia. He's here to discuss
:23:05. > :23:08.Putin's latest manoeuvres. Dr Fox, do you feel vindicated by these
:23:09. > :23:12.events? No, but I think a lot of people have been saying for a long
:23:13. > :23:15.time that Putin respects only two things, consistency and strength,
:23:16. > :23:20.and the west has not shown either of them in great measure. We saw the
:23:21. > :23:24.cyber attack on Estonia, a NATO partner, we did nothing. Russia
:23:25. > :23:30.invaded Georgia, we effectively did nothing. And we saw Russia backing
:23:31. > :23:34.Syria, even when Syria used chemical weapons and famously with the red
:23:35. > :23:38.lines drawn by President Obama, we did nogin. That sends a lot of
:23:39. > :23:43.signals to someone like Putin who is effectively a bully and runs a
:23:44. > :23:49.thuggish regime, that the west will not stand up to his actions. You
:23:50. > :23:53.describe an escalation, they are three examples of the same problem,
:23:54. > :23:56.not necessarily an increase in Putin's boldness, or Putin's
:23:57. > :24:00.appetite for a fight? I would disagree. I would think there is an
:24:01. > :24:06.escalation there between a cyber attack on Estonia and the annexation
:24:07. > :24:10.of Crimea. But he went into Georgia? He went into Georgia and he has an
:24:11. > :24:13.occupation force still there. We don't call it an occupation force,
:24:14. > :24:20.but what else do you call it when foreign forces are on your sovereign
:24:21. > :24:26.territory, develop military bases and refuse to leave. He has done an
:24:27. > :24:30.interesting thing, decribing his role and defender of all people of
:24:31. > :24:36.Russian ethnicity that is interesting to the sovereign state
:24:37. > :24:42.description of the world? That is to on absolutely nailing the issue.
:24:43. > :24:44.Putin has two views that incompatible with our view of the
:24:45. > :24:49.world. The first is to say that Russia has a sphere of influence,
:24:50. > :24:55.and we in the west believe that sovereign nations should be the
:24:56. > :24:58.arbiters of their own destiny. That is incompatible. Secondly, he has
:24:59. > :25:02.said that ethnic Russians are not to be protected by the countries they
:25:03. > :25:07.live and the laws and constitutions of their Government, but an external
:25:08. > :25:10.power, for example Russia. That blows a hole in everything we
:25:11. > :25:16.understand in terms of international law and norms since World War II. It
:25:17. > :25:23.plays well at home, it appeals to the nationalistic fervent that gives
:25:24. > :25:27.Railtrackings that only Kim Jong ILL beat in the world. And so perhaps
:25:28. > :25:32.your desire to put troops on the ground in Ukraine would add to the
:25:33. > :25:39.national inks fervour in Moscow and keeping Putin in power? I never said
:25:40. > :25:43.to deploy troops in eastern Ukraine but Eastern Europe where there are
:25:44. > :25:47.ethnic Russians and where the Putin doctrine would say we are free to
:25:48. > :25:50.intervene when we want. I think it is important to understand that the
:25:51. > :25:54.smaller NATO members, particularly the Baltic states, who have in some
:25:55. > :25:59.cases very high numbers of ethnic Russians are very worried about this
:26:00. > :26:03.doctrine being perpetrated on them. We therefore, I think, have a duty
:26:04. > :26:07.to maintain our cohesion as an alliance. I would like to see more
:26:08. > :26:12.NATO exercises in places like Eastern Europe and in the Black Sea.
:26:13. > :26:16.And I would like to see a permanent NATO strength on the ground in the
:26:17. > :26:23.Baltic states. He won't back down, if he does he loses his power base
:26:24. > :26:27.at home which is built on the Russian bear bowing to nobody? That
:26:28. > :26:30.is failing to understand our on doctrine of deterrents which is to
:26:31. > :26:34.say we are having a show of strength here, which is to stop you taking
:26:35. > :26:40.actions we find unacceptable. The trouble is, because of our own lack
:26:41. > :26:44.of understanding and our own unwillingness to apply the concept
:26:45. > :26:47.of deterrents, we have seen what happened in Estonia, Georgia and
:26:48. > :26:54.what happened in the Ukraine. It is time for us to actually show some
:26:55. > :26:57.far greater moral strength than we have shown in the west for some
:26:58. > :27:01.time. Weak leadership from David Cameron and other western leaders.
:27:02. > :27:05.Do you think that applies also to the situation in Gaza at the moment?
:27:06. > :27:09.I think the situation in Ukraine is of far greater importance in terms
:27:10. > :27:13.of our national security. And in the longer term safety of Europe and the
:27:14. > :27:16.NATO alliance. I think in terms of what happens in Gaza the
:27:17. > :27:21.Government's response has been reasonable. And sensible. I think
:27:22. > :27:25.that one of the problems that we have in an rather where the debate
:27:26. > :27:29.is very much media-driven is that we're looking at the symptoms of the
:27:30. > :27:34.conflict rather than the causes. I have a lot of trouble with this word
:27:35. > :27:41."proportionate", what is a proportionate response. It is
:27:42. > :27:43.interesting you say that, you say reasonable but that is elements of
:27:44. > :27:48.the Government, the Deputy Prime Minister is happy to use the word
:27:49. > :27:51."disproportionate? The Prime Minister, and the Foreign Secretary
:27:52. > :27:54.are responsible for national security, what will happen in a
:27:55. > :27:57.year's time is another matter. What is clear is we have an underlying
:27:58. > :28:03.problem, the underlying problem is that Israel has a neighbour, Gaza,
:28:04. > :28:07.where Hamas believes that Israel should not exist, and as long as
:28:08. > :28:12.they continue with that belief it is very difficult to see how you can
:28:13. > :28:15.get a political solution. We are receiving reports this evening of
:28:16. > :28:20.American air strikes in northern Iraq, that presumablialies with your
:28:21. > :28:24.desire for a show of strength in these trouble spots. Would you like
:28:25. > :28:27.to see British aircraft and service personnel getting involved in that?
:28:28. > :28:31.There is no case as long as the Americans are taking the lead, given
:28:32. > :28:35.they have far greater military capability. If the United States is
:28:36. > :28:40.involved and trying to deal with the physical capabilities of ISIS, that
:28:41. > :28:44.is a good thing, because what is required is the ability to degrade
:28:45. > :28:47.their military capability to the point that the Governments in the
:28:48. > :28:52.region, particularly the Government of Iraq is able to deal with them,
:28:53. > :28:55.themselves. Those reports are currently unconfirmed and the
:28:56. > :29:01.Pentagon have issued a denial. You sound like man who wants to see more
:29:02. > :29:04.war? No. What I want to see is the containment of those who are
:29:05. > :29:09.slaughtering innocents, as you showed in your previous report, who
:29:10. > :29:15.are using religious persecution as a tool of their political and military
:29:16. > :29:20.doctrine. And we do have a responsibility as people who believe
:29:21. > :29:24.in freedom and security and a rule of law to stand up for those who are
:29:25. > :29:28.being very obviously % cuted in areas where we could make a
:29:29. > :29:32.difference. Let me ask you about a battle that's all together less
:29:33. > :29:36.bloody, a bat shall may unfold at the top of your party, the
:29:37. > :29:39.Conservative Party party, do you think the fuss around Boris
:29:40. > :29:43.Johnson's desire to return to Westminster speaks of a belief that
:29:44. > :29:46.the next election is all right lost, he wants to be the leader of the
:29:47. > :29:53.opposition and in place as early as possible? I doubt if you asked most
:29:54. > :29:55.of my colleagues if their ambition was to be leader of the opposition,
:29:56. > :29:58.no they want to be Prime Minister. It is a question of who succeeds
:29:59. > :30:02.David Cameron as Prime Minister after the next election. It is an
:30:03. > :30:08.interesting battle, but I tell you something it won't be fought out
:30:09. > :30:13.amongst the journalist and the media, and the Conservative MPs.
:30:14. > :30:18.Will you be standing? It is unlikely but I will be voting in it. Some
:30:19. > :30:23.people think you are a May pole around which elements of the party
:30:24. > :30:26.like to dance, an indication? We hear all the reports of Westminster,
:30:27. > :30:29.if you take it over a period there is virtually no-one whose name is
:30:30. > :30:36.not mentioned. Let's get re-elected first and discuss it afterwards.
:30:37. > :30:41.Thank you very much. Do you remember John Major's cones hot-line, how
:30:42. > :30:47.about "hug a hoodie", or Gordon Brown's Government of "all the
:30:48. > :30:52.talents". They must have seemed like brilliant ideas in private, but the
:30:53. > :30:56.public soon rendered them ridiculous and irrelevant, both. We don't have
:30:57. > :31:01.much mention of David Cameron's Big Society these days, do we? We have
:31:02. > :31:05.been finding out if that is because it has quietly joined the
:31:06. > :31:14.embarrassing menagerie of political white elephants.
:31:15. > :31:18.Remember Big Society? So it is time for something different, something
:31:19. > :31:22.bold. Something that don't just pour money down the throat of wasteful
:31:23. > :31:29.top-down Government schemes. The Big Society is that something different
:31:30. > :31:32.and bold. These young people embody David Cameron's vision, though they
:31:33. > :31:38.may not realise it. Can you put your hands up if you
:31:39. > :31:42.have heard of Big Society? They are doing national citizens service, and
:31:43. > :31:47.60,000 will go through the three-week course this year, costing
:31:48. > :31:54.us, the taxpayer, ?1400 a child. It was the Government's big idea in
:31:55. > :31:57.this the manifesto last time round. The Government wants to build a
:31:58. > :32:00.future generation of volunteers. At the last election we were all
:32:01. > :32:09.invited to join the Government of Britain. You don't hear about it
:32:10. > :32:14.much any more. What happened? Big Society may have been dreamt up
:32:15. > :32:19.around a metropolitan dinner table, but it did reach rural Cumbria, one
:32:20. > :32:23.of the first areas to pilot David Cameron's Big Idea.
:32:24. > :32:27.We have come to find out about Big Society. Right. Do you know about
:32:28. > :32:33.it? I have heard of it. Do you think it is happening here? I think it may
:32:34. > :32:38.be. This man is one of several local farmers who was persuaded to allow
:32:39. > :32:44.fibre optic cables to pass through their fields for free so he and his
:32:45. > :32:52.remote community could have high-speed broad band. It is classic
:32:53. > :33:00.Big Society territory, with a local contractor on board BT's costs came
:33:01. > :33:06.down thousands of pounds and it has taken four years and largely unpaid.
:33:07. > :33:10.If you thought you would have to do it for four years one paid, would
:33:11. > :33:14.you still have done it? It has been a long journey. If someone had asked
:33:15. > :33:19.me eight months ago would you recommend it to another community, I
:33:20. > :33:23.would have said absolutely not T has been really challenging, dark days.
:33:24. > :33:26.Now we are getting to the end of the project and we can see how much we
:33:27. > :33:29.have done and how much we have achieved i would say, yeah, we can
:33:30. > :33:42.smell the fibre now. This is worth it. It is something to celebrate and
:33:43. > :33:45.30 or so miles away they can, they Butchers Arms, bought by locals
:33:46. > :33:50.including the MP when it shut down. The volunteers behind the pub buyout
:33:51. > :33:55.have also built 12 affordable homes in the village. As a Big Society
:33:56. > :33:59.pilot area they had support from Whitehall to navigate through red
:34:00. > :34:02.tape, procurement and other pitfalls. Are other communities
:34:03. > :34:09.responding to Big Society in the same way. In fact, 15 neighbourhood
:34:10. > :34:14.plans like this are in train to build 6,200 homes in Britain. 27
:34:15. > :34:23.community pubs have opened nationwide, not many when it is
:34:24. > :34:27.estimated 26 shut every week. As for broadband there are five community
:34:28. > :34:32.projects like Libby's going ahead in the UK. In the end communities are
:34:33. > :34:36.sometimes stepping away. I guess it is maybe they don't feel it is their
:34:37. > :34:39.business, they don't feel they have enough time or sometimes they maybe
:34:40. > :34:43.just don't want it enough. Or maybe they think it is something the
:34:44. > :34:46.Government should be doing for them. I also think Government could help
:34:47. > :34:53.more by just putting these things up in lights and saying, in the end, if
:34:54. > :34:56.Libby can get super-fast broadband for houses, there is no reason why
:34:57. > :34:59.you can't. This is your Government's big idea, why are they not talking
:35:00. > :35:07.about it now. If they are not putting it in lights who is going
:35:08. > :35:16.to? It is a struggle. One of the problems might be that Big Society
:35:17. > :35:21.was always a bit emorphous, one of those behind the pub takeover says
:35:22. > :35:26.they would have done it any way. There is no doubt our community
:35:27. > :35:30.irrespective of Big Society would have bought the pub. What does that
:35:31. > :35:34.say about Big Society? Simply that we didn't need it to manage a
:35:35. > :35:42.project of buying a pub. That is not to say that other groups don't need
:35:43. > :35:48.that support. Liverpool was another area that pilots Big Society after
:35:49. > :35:52.the election. Here it ended badly, the Government accused by the
:35:53. > :35:55.Labour-run Council of Using Big Society to dress up austerity. It
:35:56. > :35:59.pulled out saying it couldn't ask the voluntary sector to do more in
:36:00. > :36:05.the era of cuts. The whole concept of trying to create a society that
:36:06. > :36:10.is just based on volunteers, without any underpinning of that fabric and
:36:11. > :36:16.infrastructure was always doom today failure in my view. I think that's
:36:17. > :36:23.the reason why it has failed and why Liverpool didn't want to play any
:36:24. > :36:27.part of it after we saw. It was like the Emperor's new clothes, somebody
:36:28. > :36:34.needed to stand up and say he has no clothes on. The Government disagrees
:36:35. > :36:36.with Liverpool's assessment, claiming everything from free
:36:37. > :36:42.schools to changes to neighbourhood planning to a 44% increase in
:36:43. > :36:45.library volunteering as big society, the last will have campaigners
:36:46. > :36:50.against library closures spitting. Newsnight has gone through David
:36:51. > :36:57.Cameron's speeches. His buzzword used to get mentioned a lot, there
:36:58. > :37:02.were 100 when it launched and now it is down to five where there is a
:37:03. > :37:06.sustained campaign and his own party put the boot in. When he was still
:37:07. > :37:10.talking about it, it was the Conservative's attempt to mend
:37:11. > :37:17.broken Britain, the fact it hasn't happened is a tragedy says someone
:37:18. > :37:21.of those behind the vision. I think it lost because of battles lost in
:37:22. > :37:29.the Conservative Party. The Conservative Party returned to its
:37:30. > :37:32.standard, kind of 1980s Thatcherite narrative. It was not that the
:37:33. > :37:37.people who opposed it were bad people. It is just they thought the
:37:38. > :37:40.same old mechanisms would deliver the outcomes of prosperity and
:37:41. > :37:44.shared wealth. But they haven't and they never will. You were part of
:37:45. > :37:47.the manifesto last time round. The manifesto said an invitation to join
:37:48. > :37:50.the Government of Britain. Do you think the Conservatives will be
:37:51. > :37:55.going into the next election with that same idea? I think it is dead
:37:56. > :37:58.politically. But do you know what, all the political parties are
:37:59. > :38:03.fighting for majority. And they are not getting it. So why that is, is
:38:04. > :38:08.because all the parties remain captured by their own methods or
:38:09. > :38:12.means of delivery. Labour is still wedded to the state, as the answer
:38:13. > :38:15.to everybody's problems. The Conservative Party is still wedded
:38:16. > :38:18.to the old model of the market, as the answer to everybody's problems.
:38:19. > :38:22.But all the best people in both parties that is not true. And they
:38:23. > :38:25.are all looking for an alternative. The first rule is you respect
:38:26. > :38:30.everybody's right to have a different opinion.
:38:31. > :38:35.Of course Philip Blonde says that alternative is Big Society, still
:38:36. > :38:39.living and breathing here at national Sarns service. But will you
:38:40. > :38:45.be hearing as much about Big Society in the run up to the next election
:38:46. > :38:48.as you did last time. One insider told Newsnight if we don't talk
:38:49. > :38:53.about it the only narrative left for this Government is cuts.
:38:54. > :38:59.Here with me to discuss the legacy of and prospects for the Big Society
:39:00. > :39:03.is the founder of the Magic Breakfast Charity, that gives free
:39:04. > :39:11.breakfasts to poorer schoolchildren, and from Bristol the Conservative
:39:12. > :39:17.MP, Jacob Rees-Mogg. So Big Society has turned into Mrs Racz Chester,
:39:18. > :39:21.leave it in the at particular and hope nobody mentions it? I think the
:39:22. > :39:25.Big Society is alive and kicking, you see it in rural communities like
:39:26. > :39:30.my own seat in north Somerset, where a whole range of activities are
:39:31. > :39:33.undertaken by the community. It is about David Cameron's statement that
:39:34. > :39:37.there is such a thing as society and it is different from the state. That
:39:38. > :39:41.can be put into practice without the state muddling about with it. It is
:39:42. > :39:45.a glorious success in Somerset? It is a glorious success and working
:39:46. > :39:48.brilliantly. This must be the first recorded time in political history
:39:49. > :39:52.that a Prime Minister has done something wonderful and not told the
:39:53. > :39:55.voters about it? The issue there is the success of the Big Society is
:39:56. > :40:02.not because it is led by the Government, but it is led by society
:40:03. > :40:06.itself. On Saturday we will have the flower show which, is long going on,
:40:07. > :40:09.greats event in north-east Somerset, that is about volunteers working
:40:10. > :40:13.hard throughout the year to make something happen for the whole
:40:14. > :40:16.community. That's separate from the Government, that is the success of
:40:17. > :40:19.the Big Society, is allowing these things to happen and flourish,
:40:20. > :40:25.rather than assuming that big Government is the answer to all the
:40:26. > :40:28.problems. So flower shows in north Somerset, it is all blooming
:40:29. > :40:32.marvellous, you are one of the people that Jacob Rees-Mogg refers
:40:33. > :40:39.to, you are leading big society, are you happy with how things are going?
:40:40. > :40:43.From the Magic Breakfast's perfective, we are -- perspective,
:40:44. > :40:49.we are giving food to those children who come to school hungry. We won an
:40:50. > :40:52.award and were big supporters of the Big Society, we want it to lead to
:40:53. > :40:56.more action. Nobody can argue with the fact that bringing more people
:40:57. > :41:00.to do more good things in their communities, helping people to get
:41:01. > :41:04.engaged in all sorts of project, great stuff, but what has happened
:41:05. > :41:09.since then is I think we have been slightly overcome by austerity. What
:41:10. > :41:14.I want is for Big Society to be used to tackle social inequality as well
:41:15. > :41:18.as the beautiful flower displays as well as the running your local pub.
:41:19. > :41:22.We have a big challenge in this country, children arriving at school
:41:23. > :41:25.too hungry to learn is not something that we can leave to just the
:41:26. > :41:30.Government or just the state. We need a combination. And you don't
:41:31. > :41:32.feel that really the state should be stepping in to the sort of
:41:33. > :41:37.circumstances you describe, and people like you shouldn't have to?
:41:38. > :41:41.It is a tragedy that in the sixth-richest economy in the world
:41:42. > :41:44.we have kids arriving at school hungry and half of the teachers in
:41:45. > :41:48.this country are bringing in food. Now I signed up to the Big Society
:41:49. > :41:52.as a great theme, and I think there are some very good things and some
:41:53. > :41:57.very bad things. On the good side, absolutely. It is a boost to it.
:41:58. > :42:00.What does it actually mean, this notion that everybody should be
:42:01. > :42:05.excellent to each other, it is like a Bill and Ted film, in real terms
:42:06. > :42:09.what does it mean? I think it was a reminder that it is very possible to
:42:10. > :42:15.get involved in community projects and make a difference. It always
:42:16. > :42:18.was? It wasn't new, it was acknowledged at the time that this
:42:19. > :42:22.was an emphasis on a part of British culture and society that has always
:42:23. > :42:27.been there, the desire to help each other. This is great and decent
:42:28. > :42:31.country with lots of people who do enormously good community project
:42:32. > :42:35.work already, it wasn't new, but what I liked about it was it was
:42:36. > :42:40.bringing in more social enterprise and more funding and lots of
:42:41. > :42:43.initiatives. For us at Magic Breakfast, it didn't bring in
:42:44. > :42:48.funding but more people are saying people are coming hungry, can we
:42:49. > :42:51.volunteer and come to you. Jacob Rees-Mogg, flower shows not with
:42:52. > :42:54.standing, what would you point to as conclusive evidence that people who
:42:55. > :42:58.need help are getting it from Big Society? You have to to
:42:59. > :43:01.differentiate what is properly the role of the state and what is the
:43:02. > :43:06.role of volunteers. State is there to do what is essential and can't be
:43:07. > :43:10.done by anybody else. Feeding hungry children? I would say that is
:43:11. > :43:15.something the state should view as essential. So this charity is not
:43:16. > :43:20.part of Big Society, but got an award for being so good of it? There
:43:21. > :43:25.are parts that become Big Society, the state has a welfare system to
:43:26. > :43:30.give people funds to buy food and volunteers can be there to help
:43:31. > :43:34.children eat when they get to school in the morning and their parents may
:43:35. > :43:41.have failed to do so because they are so disorganised. The state
:43:42. > :43:45.doesn't provide money for that? The state provides a safety net to
:43:46. > :43:50.provide money to feed children, and not every family is efficient in
:43:51. > :43:56.doing that. With respect, I would say that you know there are an awful
:43:57. > :43:59.lot of children that are going to food banks now. We know that half of
:44:00. > :44:03.teachers in this country are bringing in food. It is not about
:44:04. > :44:06.family disorganisation, it is about poverty. The majority of the
:44:07. > :44:10.children we feed are in homes where their parents are working long hours
:44:11. > :44:15.in low-paid jobs, where the rent has gone up, the fuel has gone up but
:44:16. > :44:19.their wages have not. Now if we are going to get the Big Society to turn
:44:20. > :44:23.into something really meaningful we have to tackle the structural things
:44:24. > :44:26.like that right now. And yet you disagree, you feel the role of the
:44:27. > :44:35.state and the role of the voluntary sector is easily distinguishable,
:44:36. > :44:42.Jacob Rees-Mogg? It is easily distinguishable, there are always
:44:43. > :44:46.fray areas. The -- grey areas. Big Society will provide, as in my own
:44:47. > :44:50.constituency with a temporary road being built by an individual with
:44:51. > :44:54.the support of a landowner. An individual who has invested ?150,000
:44:55. > :44:59.off the top of my head? You are right. That is not quite what we
:45:00. > :45:03.understood Big Society to mean? He's not expecting to make a return but
:45:04. > :45:07.his costs back. That is society coming together to do something that
:45:08. > :45:16.the state cannot manage to do. Thank you for that. Flower shows and road
:45:17. > :45:19.tolles. Let's have a look at the front pages, the sometimes leads
:45:20. > :45:54.with "wars of religion": SNP I'm off back to my usual pond,
:45:55. > :46:01.thank you for having me. We are ending with a shark cam. A quick
:46:02. > :46:20.look at what the really big fish do when they see a camera.
:46:21. > :46:29.? # Big mouth strikes again
:46:30. > :46:36.# Take my place # Big mouth
:46:37. > :46:45.# Strikes again # You have no right to take my place
:46:46. > :46:45.# And now I know # I
:46:46. > :46:56.We will change the script for the end of the week, we lose the
:46:57. > :46:59.sunshine and replace it with heavy rain in the morning. Warnings have
:47:00. > :47:08.been issued as they have been for Northern Ireland. If you start dry
:47:09. > :47:10.you will be not surprised to see showers breaking out. Drying up in
:47:11. > :47:13.the afternoon but with showers. Western Scotland wet through the
:47:14. > :47:17.afternoon, but in eastern Scotland one or two showers dotted around but
:47:18. > :47:20.many place also enjoy a dry afternoon. Into the south and east
:47:21. > :47:26.of Scotland, heavy showers around through the afternoon as they will
:47:27. > :47:27.be in northern England, Thundering, lightning and rain in a