:00:00. > :00:11.The images of desperate families, thousands of them still stranded on
:00:12. > :00:14.Mount Sinjar in northern Iraq are beamed around the world. After ten
:00:15. > :00:20.days only these fortunate few have made it to relative safety. Here
:00:21. > :00:24.refugees from the mountain have been pouring in all day, tonight the
:00:25. > :00:27.lucky ones will have found shelter in derelict buildings and schools.
:00:28. > :00:31.But all are still worried about those they left behind, nobody knows
:00:32. > :00:36.exactly how many are still stranded on that mountain tonight. We are
:00:37. > :00:41.sending Tornadoes and Chinooks to support the aid effort. What is
:00:42. > :00:43.driving the US response, the humanitarian crisis or the black
:00:44. > :00:47.stuff. They dig graves four deep, one on
:00:48. > :00:51.top of another, it is cheaper than cremation, this is how we bury the
:00:52. > :00:55.poorest people in Britain. We are on our way to the cemetery now, we are
:00:56. > :01:00.due there at two, we are trying to make it as good as we can for him
:01:01. > :01:10.really. And... Nanu Nanu. His comedic genius
:01:11. > :01:16.enthralled millions over a decade and the manner of his death has
:01:17. > :01:28.shocked and saddened us all. Our guests share their memories.
:01:29. > :01:33.Good evening, the race to save thousands of people stranded and
:01:34. > :01:38.under siege by Islamic militants in the searing heat of Mount Sinjar
:01:39. > :01:42.intensified today. With RAF Tornado jets and a small number of British
:01:43. > :01:45.Chinook helicopters now joining the US military involved in the
:01:46. > :01:49.humanitarian relief he have Ford, even if the Yazidi are eventually
:01:50. > :01:59.brought to safety, is there the international will to create a
:02:00. > :02:04.coalition to help the Iraqi Government to defeat the militants.
:02:05. > :02:12.Is there any attempt to engage IS militarily. First we go over to
:02:13. > :02:18.Iraqi Kurdistan. Who has been arriving today. We have stood at the
:02:19. > :02:25.border today and we saw hundreds and hundreds of Yazidi refugee families
:02:26. > :02:29.walking across, they carried nothing but their children and a few meagre
:02:30. > :02:32.supplies. They were the survivors of the mountain. Some have walked for
:02:33. > :02:36.days, others for hours, getting lifts where they could. They were
:02:37. > :02:42.brought down from the mountain by PKK fighters, who saved their lives,
:02:43. > :02:46.getting them past Islamic State checkpoints and finally to relative
:02:47. > :02:50.safety here in northern Iraq. They came with nothing, driven out of
:02:51. > :02:54.their homes. We talked of survivors who talked about relatives being
:02:55. > :02:57.killed, shot or stabbed, and women and children being deliberately
:02:58. > :03:03.targeted and stabbed. Many of them tonight of course seeking shelter
:03:04. > :03:06.here. Some in derelict buildings, others on the floors in schools with
:03:07. > :03:10.very, very meagre ration, all in desperate need of help. From the
:03:11. > :03:14.stories that you hear from people coming in today, have we any
:03:15. > :03:21.reliable estimates as to who is actually left on Mount sin area, how
:03:22. > :03:28.many? Don, on Mount Sinjar, how many? We don't know how many, the UN
:03:29. > :03:31.has said it is not clear. There is a long mountain range and there are
:03:32. > :03:36.many thousands we believe. These are the people who are the frailest,
:03:37. > :03:40.those less able to walk. One man I spoke today said what they needed
:03:41. > :03:45.were blankets to carry the elderly, the sick and small children who
:03:46. > :03:48.couldn't walks the distance. They are hoping for more supplies to be
:03:49. > :03:52.dropped on the mountain. That is difficult, one helicopter carrying
:03:53. > :03:55.humanitarian aid, bringing refugees out crashed on the mountain killing
:03:56. > :04:01.the pilot and injuring many. So this is dangerous and they have to fly in
:04:02. > :04:08.over hostile herry. Many of those helicopters shot as they go with
:04:09. > :04:12.refugees on board. Whilst the Government here seems to be
:04:13. > :04:15.increasing its commitment to the humanitarian mission in Iraq with
:04:16. > :04:19.helicopters on the way, it is still resisting pressure to join in US air
:04:20. > :04:22.strikes. So why the reluctance? Perhaps the memory of the vote
:04:23. > :04:27.against military action in Syria when parliament was recalled almost
:04:28. > :04:30.a year ago loomed large. Our investigations correspondent has
:04:31. > :04:34.been looking into the calculation being made in Whitehall and is here
:04:35. > :04:38.now. What is being discussed in Whitehall, and we have a ComRes poll
:04:39. > :04:42.tonight that suggests a majority of those polled are in favour of
:04:43. > :04:47.Britain joining America in air strikes? There is some contingency
:04:48. > :04:50.planning going on at the Ministry of Defence. But at the moment there
:04:51. > :04:55.just isn't the appetite to extend this beyond the purely humanitarian.
:04:56. > :05:00.As you said there are Tornadoes in the air, they will be joined by
:05:01. > :05:04.Chinook helicopters. We can safely assume there are a small number of
:05:05. > :05:08.British Special Forces on the ground to help co-ordinate the aid effort.
:05:09. > :05:10.As far as taking it beyond that, I don't think there is the momentum
:05:11. > :05:14.yet. One source said to me tonight that the idea of British troops on
:05:15. > :05:18.the ground in Iraq was a complete non-starter. It just won't happen.
:05:19. > :05:22.Of course history doesn't help us here, because we put boots on the
:05:23. > :05:26.ground in Iraq and Afghanistan, we didn't in Syria, we had a limited
:05:27. > :05:31.campaign in Libya. But of course none of these campaigns ended up the
:05:32. > :05:35.way we wanted. But as these pictures are beamed around the world more, as
:05:36. > :05:41.a kind of rumble comes at the thought of possible genocide, you
:05:42. > :05:45.have tornado, supposedly on reconnaissance surveillance and
:05:46. > :05:50.Chinook, we know they are taking in weapons, delivered by the Americans
:05:51. > :05:55.for the Kurdish fighters of Peshmerga. What about an unofficial
:05:56. > :05:59.mission creep? There is certainly that danger. There are three factors
:06:00. > :06:03.that we have to look out for over the coming days. The first is, will
:06:04. > :06:10.the situation on the ground change? One source said to me tonight that
:06:11. > :06:12.if there was another seismic event, another humanitarian catastrophe
:06:13. > :06:19.then ministers would have to rethink. The second thing as you
:06:20. > :06:24.said there is a ComRes poll out that shows 45% people are in favour and
:06:25. > :06:27.37% against air strike, that is not overwhelming but ministers look at
:06:28. > :06:30.that. The most important thing is the Americans. So far the Americans
:06:31. > :06:34.have not asked us, so I understand it, to get involved in air strikes.
:06:35. > :06:36.And of course they haven't asked because they are not sure they will
:06:37. > :06:40.get the right answer. Because they got the wrong answer over Syria.
:06:41. > :06:45.Indeed. Thank you very much indeed. Two MPs who joining the call tonight
:06:46. > :06:52.for parliament to be recalled so this can be properly debated are
:06:53. > :06:55.Labour's Diane Abbot and David Lee from the Conservatives. First of all
:06:56. > :07:02.Diane Abbot, why do you want parliament recalled? The region is
:07:03. > :07:06.involved in crisis you have the Syrian crisis, Gaza and now this. We
:07:07. > :07:09.need to stiffen the Prime Minister's line on Gaza and the state of
:07:10. > :07:13.Israel. And we do need to discuss how we can make the most effective
:07:14. > :07:17.humanitarian intervention in Iraq. We have a situation here where you
:07:18. > :07:20.might want more humanitarian mission, you might want more
:07:21. > :07:27.helicopter, you might want more planes, but if, as Caroline Wyatt
:07:28. > :07:33.says, in order to get to the Yazidis on the mountain, they have to go
:07:34. > :07:38.through fire, surely any humanitarian mission would have to
:07:39. > :07:43.be able to defend itself? We need an international military effort.
:07:44. > :07:47.Including Britain? This has to go to Security Council. This was what was
:07:48. > :07:50.wrong the original war, I do not believe parliament will vote for
:07:51. > :07:55.another unilateral American-British strike. You want parliament
:07:56. > :08:00.recalled, do you want military strikes by Britain? Let's be clear
:08:01. > :08:03.about what we are facing here. A massive humanitarian crisis millions
:08:04. > :08:09.of refugees, widespread carnage, we are also facing an ideolgical crisis
:08:10. > :08:14.here, the spread of Islamist thinking throughout the region and a
:08:15. > :08:19.regional challenge. We need a strategy actually that approaches
:08:20. > :08:23.the region as a whole. You voted against intervention in Syria? At
:08:24. > :08:27.the time the reason I voted against it because I thought we were not
:08:28. > :08:30.clear about who we were supporting. I was not against intervention, I
:08:31. > :08:33.was against the intervention that was being suggested because there
:08:34. > :08:37.was no strategy underpinning it. But here you two are from different
:08:38. > :08:40.parties coming out tonight. The minority of MPs it says, calling for
:08:41. > :08:44.the recall of parliament and you don't even have your Prime Minister
:08:45. > :08:47.on board? I think you will find that increasing numbers of MPs think we
:08:48. > :08:50.should come back and discuss the situation in the region. Let me say
:08:51. > :08:56.this, the definition of madness is to keep doing the same thing and
:08:57. > :09:00.expect a different result. Another unilateral British-American strike
:09:01. > :09:04.in Iraq will end badly. This has been called genocide, is that a word
:09:05. > :09:08.you would use? I think there is the potential for this, I think this is
:09:09. > :09:16.the biggest challenge we have faced in 70 years. This could become a
:09:17. > :09:20.regional issue and much bigger. I'm under no illusions, we are already
:09:21. > :09:23.seeing this flag being flown in this country. There are over 500 British
:09:24. > :09:28.known to be there. I have heard reports of dead ISIS people with
:09:29. > :09:34.Liverpool Football Club membership cards. Turkey needs to close the
:09:35. > :09:38.border, the regional powers need to step up. This is a British problem.
:09:39. > :09:42.There is no British military. We need to challenge. This is a pretty
:09:43. > :09:47.dangerous role? They need to step up to the responsibility. There is no
:09:48. > :09:52.British military solution to the issue. We need to go to the UN. That
:09:53. > :09:56.is what the UN is for. Is an international military solution,
:09:57. > :09:59.which might include more forces, not in the air, but on the ground, a
:10:00. > :10:02.possibility, and if it is, do you think British troops should be
:10:03. > :10:07.involved? I think that the solution to this is going to take longer than
:10:08. > :10:09.electoral cycle, this is going to take decades, this is going to need
:10:10. > :10:13.staying power and we need a strategy. Part of which will require
:10:14. > :10:16.military force, but it will also require putting the biggest brains
:10:17. > :10:21.in that region together to think about the future they want to have.
:10:22. > :10:24.The borders concernedly are not being respected. We have to have a
:10:25. > :10:28.view that the future of this region may have different countries in it.
:10:29. > :10:31.If you agree that this is genocide, if you don't take action over this
:10:32. > :10:35.what do you take action over? You go to the UN. People seem to have
:10:36. > :10:39.forgotten what the United Nations is for. Let's go to the UN and have a
:10:40. > :10:41.genuine international intervention. Wait a minute are you suggesting for
:10:42. > :10:46.a minute that the Americans are wrong to take military strikes on
:10:47. > :10:49.their own? Barack Obama has domestic consideration, I can't speak to what
:10:50. > :10:55.the Americans are doing. I'm saying we have forgotten the role of
:10:56. > :10:59.international institutions. This is a serious issue and all the more
:11:00. > :11:02.reason to go to the UN. They are right for the air strikes to be
:11:03. > :11:05.taken place, I don't need to be told about the imagery, I have watched it
:11:06. > :11:09.and seen it. Do you want David Cameron to recall parliament now?
:11:10. > :11:14.Yes I do, I wanted to him to recall it over MH17 and Gaza. These are
:11:15. > :11:16.three big issues in the last four-to-six weeks and should be
:11:17. > :11:19.debated in the House of Commons. Thank you very much indeed. In the
:11:20. > :11:26.US President Obama has been accused of dithering over air strikes over
:11:27. > :11:30.Islamic State from amongst others. Hillary Clintoned, who appeared to
:11:31. > :11:33.castigate the President over the significance of their threat. Why
:11:34. > :11:40.did he act when he did. There is the might of the Yazidis, but with the
:11:41. > :11:46.Islamic State 40kms from Irbil, was it American investment and oil-rich
:11:47. > :11:51.Kurdistan were suddenly in danger? In this town in northern Iraq,
:11:52. > :11:58.Kurdish fighters prepare for the next battle with the heavily armed
:11:59. > :12:03.militias of IS. IS took the town a week ago, the Kurds managed to
:12:04. > :12:07.retake it on Sunday after American air strikes pushed the IS forces
:12:08. > :12:12.back. The US has begun plying the Kurds with arms and ammunition, but
:12:13. > :12:21.they say they urgently need more. TRANSLATION: All these weapon, PKCs,
:12:22. > :12:24.IPCs, snipers, mortars, antitanks, all the weapons the other countries
:12:25. > :12:36.have, especially with the Americans with its advanced military. The
:12:37. > :12:44.Kurdish Peshmergas are experienced fighters, they fought back the Sunni
:12:45. > :12:50.extremists of IS. This is the city that the US and the Kurds are so
:12:51. > :12:52.desperate to defend. Irbil, the oil-rich capital of the Kurdish
:12:53. > :12:57.regional Government, where the Americans have a consulate and other
:12:58. > :12:59.facilities, and many other international companies have
:13:00. > :13:04.offices. Back in the days when the US was close to Saddam Hussein, and
:13:05. > :13:09.the Kurds were fighting against him, they complained they were ignored by
:13:10. > :13:14.the Americans. Even after the chemical attack in 1988. But all
:13:15. > :13:18.that has completely changed. Last week President Obama stressed his
:13:19. > :13:26.support for the Kurds. I do think the Kurds used that time that was
:13:27. > :13:33.given by our troop sacrifices in Iraq, they used that time well. And
:13:34. > :13:36.they, the Kurdish region is functional, the way we would like to
:13:37. > :13:42.see it, and it is tolerant of other sects and other religions in a way
:13:43. > :13:47.that we would like to see elsewhere. So we do think that it is important
:13:48. > :13:51.to make sure that space is protected. Iraqi Kurdistan is of
:13:52. > :13:55.course attractive to America because of the oil. It is also a stable,
:13:56. > :14:03.democratic and tolerant Muslim state. At the moment it is the only
:14:04. > :14:10.secure, let as say, until recently it was the only secure and I could
:14:11. > :14:19.say stable region in the Middle East. Iraqi steward Kurdistan is
:14:20. > :14:24.wealthy, it has massive oil reserves, there is a new oil
:14:25. > :14:29.pipeline through Turkey, built by the Kurdish government Government,
:14:30. > :14:32.and production has been averaging 84,000 barrels a day. It is
:14:33. > :14:35.surrounded by the Kurdish populations of Syria, Iran and
:14:36. > :14:42.Turkey, giving it strategic importance. Speaking as a military
:14:43. > :14:45.man and as you know an ex-NATO committee chairman. I would say that
:14:46. > :14:51.Prague matically speaking if you look at a map of the world and look
:14:52. > :14:57.at Turkey and Europe, that little bit of Kurdistan is like the end of
:14:58. > :15:01.a comma. It is pragmatically speaking effectively the new south
:15:02. > :15:06.eastern border of NATO. It remains to be seen whether the chaos
:15:07. > :15:11.elsewhere in Iraq and the new arms supplies from make lead to pressures
:15:12. > :15:14.for full independence for this semiautonomous state. For the at the
:15:15. > :15:18.moment it is a country that's not quite a country, and the success
:15:19. > :15:22.story of the chaotic Middle East. But for that success to continue,
:15:23. > :15:30.the threat from Islamic State has to end.
:15:31. > :15:34.Foreign affairs expert and Dean of Columbia University and covering
:15:35. > :15:40.Iraq for the New Yorker joins me now. What would you say is driving
:15:41. > :15:46.President Obama's intervention? I think he was advised last week that
:15:47. > :15:51.there was a serious danger that the Islamic State could attack Irbil and
:15:52. > :15:59.if not conquer it, certainly create a nasty fight in the city. That,
:16:00. > :16:04.combined with the humanitarian crisis on Mount Sinjar caused him to
:16:05. > :16:10.react after a long period of being reluctant to do so. Do you think in
:16:11. > :16:13.a way oil was the driver? I think it was interesting in the clip you
:16:14. > :16:16.played where President Obama was explaining his decision, no I don't
:16:17. > :16:22.think oil was the driver. But I thought it was unseemly for the
:16:23. > :16:26.United States to announce this momentous decision after all the
:16:27. > :16:30.President came to power promising to end the Iraq War, it is a very
:16:31. > :16:32.important moment for him to deciding to back to combat. Without
:16:33. > :16:36.acknowledging that the reason there were thousands of Americans in
:16:37. > :16:42.Irbil, who had to be protected from the possibility of the Islamic state
:16:43. > :16:46.entering the city is because Kurdish success and independence, all the
:16:47. > :16:52.qualities your correspondent described rely on oil production.
:16:53. > :16:55.The site of about 300,000 barrel days of oil production. The
:16:56. > :16:59.Americans are there, along with many people around the world to get that
:17:00. > :17:03.oil out of the ground. And given how poorly we were served by our
:17:04. > :17:09.political leaders in 2003 as they explained the reasons for going to
:17:10. > :17:14.washes I just felt it was sort of unseemly not to maintain silence
:17:15. > :17:17.about the fact that oil is at the centre of the Kurdish dilemma. You
:17:18. > :17:26.have called it absolutely the oilman's town. Just how disastrous
:17:27. > :17:32.would it be if IS got their hand on it It is not just Irbil but to the
:17:33. > :17:36.south in Kirkuk where the oilfields are located and where I think the
:17:37. > :17:41.Islamic State has design that is are even more ardent than on Irbil,
:17:42. > :17:46.because that is an area that has historically been disputed between
:17:47. > :17:49.Iraqi Arabs and Kurds. It may be easier for the Islamic State to
:17:50. > :17:54.build support in attacking oilfields and capturing some of that oil
:17:55. > :17:59.production. Isn't it ironic that we have, you know, Barack Obama calling
:18:00. > :18:03.now for this Government, a new Government of unity in Iraq and
:18:04. > :18:08.backing the new Prime Minister against the outgoing Nouri
:18:09. > :18:12.Al-Maliki, at the same time beefing up Iraqi Kurdistan to the point
:18:13. > :18:17.where quite possibly America's idea that it would become an independent
:18:18. > :18:23.nation, therefore undermining the whole idea of a united Iraq? This
:18:24. > :18:28.has been a strain, you are dead right. This has been fault line in
:18:29. > :18:34.American policy going back to the Bush administration. The premise of
:18:35. > :18:39.the policy has been to promote unified Iraqi constitutional
:18:40. > :18:41.Government in Baghdad, multisectarian power sharing,
:18:42. > :18:48.sharing oil revenue, at the same time American policy has passively
:18:49. > :18:51.allowed Kurdistan, because it has been successful and stable to build
:18:52. > :18:55.up independent wealth, independent oil contracts, now they are pursuing
:18:56. > :19:00.independent sales of oil abroad, and so at the very time when American
:19:01. > :19:05.policy seeks to stitch Iraq together under great pressure, it is also
:19:06. > :19:11.supporting Kurdistan, which has been tugging at the seams of Iraqi unity
:19:12. > :19:16.for some time. Thank you for joining us. Robin Williams was the go-to
:19:17. > :19:20.comedian and actor for many of us, he lit up any scene with his
:19:21. > :19:23.unpredictability, Gooch ball stories and air of compassion. His death has
:19:24. > :19:27.left millions of fan, fellow comedians and the American President
:19:28. > :19:30.bereft, then tonight we learned the sad news the actor and comic,
:19:31. > :19:39.suffering from severe depression had hanged himself at his home. The man
:19:40. > :19:44.who came alive as Mork of Mork and Minutedy, and dazzled as Mrs
:19:45. > :19:48.Doubtfire, and comic genius and inspired a whole host of stand-ups,
:19:49. > :19:56.in a moment we will discuss his life. But first here is our
:19:57. > :20:01.appreciation. Born in Chicago from British stock. He could do it all,
:20:02. > :20:08.from stand-up to slapstick, to darker, serious roles. Please
:20:09. > :20:13.welcome Robin Williams. He learned his craft in the early 70, battle it
:20:14. > :20:18.out on the live circuit. His energy infectious, his audience often in
:20:19. > :20:23.tears. You are following me, they are after me, they are after me,
:20:24. > :20:33.they are after me. Siberian mine, here we go. But his big break came
:20:34. > :20:43.on TV, a small role as a confused alien in Happy Days. I mean you no
:20:44. > :20:48.harm, Nanu-nanu. That became the sitcom, Mork and Minutedy, a huge
:20:49. > :20:54.hit at the time. But Williams will be probably best remembered for his
:20:55. > :21:05.big screen roles. Surprise. From fun Disney block busters to intelligent
:21:06. > :21:10.drama. Dead Poets Society, and Good Morning Vietnam, brought on the
:21:11. > :21:16.critics. Good Will Hunting won him an Oscar. You know what occurred to
:21:17. > :21:23.me. You're just a kid, you don't have the faintest idea of what you
:21:24. > :21:28.are talking about. Why thank you. Today fans were laying flowers and
:21:29. > :21:34.leaving messages next to that same bench in potsen to. -- Boston. Since
:21:35. > :21:38.the start of his career Williams had been open about his struggle with
:21:39. > :21:43.depression and drugs. Look at you drinking wine, and me just out of
:21:44. > :21:48.rehab, thank you. It is like having a doughnut in front of a diabetic,
:21:49. > :21:51.it is OK. You will mind me and Amy Winehouse going
:21:52. > :21:56.# Trying to get me back to rehab He returned to treatment just weeks
:21:57. > :21:59.before his death. One of the quickest, most intelligent and
:22:00. > :22:03.gifted comedians of his generation. He leaves behind three children,
:22:04. > :22:08.four unfinished films, and an influence that is far reaching and
:22:09. > :22:14.in ble. To discuss Robin Williams and his
:22:15. > :22:19.legacy is the comedian and writer Eddie Izzard and Amanda Palmer. You
:22:20. > :22:24.knew him well, what was the source of his genius? I think he must have
:22:25. > :22:29.got it through his parents, it is genetic, I think some of these
:22:30. > :22:35.comedy tends to come through parents and stuff. He had that and nurturing
:22:36. > :22:40.that and pushed it and made it work. When I was at stand-up workshops,
:22:41. > :22:44.learning to do stand-up because I only did sketches there were
:22:45. > :22:47.different types of stand-ups you could be, one was the God-like
:22:48. > :22:56.genius and that was the Williams. You can get to that, but only if you
:22:57. > :23:00.are crazy. All through his career he headed back to stand-up all the
:23:01. > :23:04.time, he loved that immediate engagment with the audience? He did
:23:05. > :23:07.love it. I wondered, I actually think he could have done it more,
:23:08. > :23:10.because I think what happens in America if you get successful in
:23:11. > :23:14.comedy you will go into a television series or film series, that becomes
:23:15. > :23:20.key, it is a different thing to stand-up. So I feel he did
:23:21. > :23:25.occasional stand-up tours after taking off into such a huge way. But
:23:26. > :23:29.not all the time. It was, he was so wonderful at it, I don't actually
:23:30. > :23:33.know why he didn't come back to it more. What do you think was the
:23:34. > :23:37.source of his vulnerability, often I think when you see expressions that
:23:38. > :23:42.are used in lots of films, he looked so kind of sympathetic towards the
:23:43. > :23:47.other characters, he had this incredible kind of warmth? I mean
:23:48. > :23:55.that was just Robin, he was a nice guy, when I first met him on a film
:23:56. > :23:59.he was just very welcoming. And I said can you watch my video and he
:24:00. > :24:03.watched it immediately, which was very, you would expect a lot of
:24:04. > :24:10.pullback on that, but he was just, he was just a decent person. For a
:24:11. > :24:16.lot of us he was right up there and it is too sad. In a strange way he
:24:17. > :24:20.was nurturing of other people's talent and needed a lot of nurturing
:24:21. > :24:23.in himself, in the end that is obviously what happened? I don't
:24:24. > :24:26.want to get into that, but depression it clinical and some
:24:27. > :24:34.people have it and some people don't. It just is a disease, you
:24:35. > :24:41.know. He was brilliant and he, it would have been wonderful if he
:24:42. > :24:44.could have gone on. Amanda Palmer I think I'm right in saying that you
:24:45. > :24:49.tweeted last night that what you wanted was an emergency screening of
:24:50. > :24:58.a Robin Williams film for you all, I think it was Good Morning Vietnam?
:24:59. > :25:02.It was Dead Poets Society. How did you first encounter him, years ago?
:25:03. > :25:07.I mean it was years ago. It feels like he was one of those people who
:25:08. > :25:11.raised me in the 80s, because I was stationed in front of television
:25:12. > :25:16.watching his movies from before I can remember. I think the first one,
:25:17. > :25:23.I mean there was Mork and Mindy, but the first one was Moscow on the
:25:24. > :25:25.Hudson. That was absolutely a brilliant film not mentioned much,
:25:26. > :25:34.and I thought he was wonderful in that? Yeah, I mean it is like he has
:25:35. > :25:39.been such a permanent part of the landscape, I was so, I was so
:25:40. > :25:43.shocked to hear that he was gone. Because he's always there. And of
:25:44. > :25:49.course now of course the Twitter reaction has been phenomenal, and
:25:50. > :25:55.you are avid on Twitter. You get the sense of just how many people's
:25:56. > :25:59.lives he touched? Yes, one of those beautiful things happened today
:26:00. > :26:03.where a lot of people were talking about Dead Poets Society, that was
:26:04. > :26:07.just one of those films with moments that resonated so deeply with
:26:08. > :26:13.people, especially because of the suicide in the film. One my fans
:26:14. > :26:27.sent me a picture of himself standing on a desk with the hashtag
:26:28. > :26:31.#ohcampaignmycaptain. I sent one back with the one I had. It turned
:26:32. > :26:35.into this beautiful viral tribute by hundreds of people taking pictures
:26:36. > :26:40.of themselves standing on desks. You got a sense looking at the comments,
:26:41. > :26:44.different films really touched and changed people at different times.
:26:45. > :26:50.One of my fans tweeted about being on the brink of suicide himself when
:26:51. > :26:56.he saw Dead Poets Society and said that film pulled him back from the
:26:57. > :27:02.edge. So the profound irony of it all is heavy. You got a sense that
:27:03. > :27:06.he delighted in some of his roles. Mrs Doubtfire was a role made for
:27:07. > :27:10.adults as well as children? Yeah, I mean when he was doing comedy he
:27:11. > :27:15.would do a thing which, I'm not sure if all of us comedians do, he was
:27:16. > :27:19.making himself laugh. I'm pretty shower he was the first person --
:27:20. > :27:27.sure he was the first person in his audience. When I did this film with
:27:28. > :27:31.him, the one I did, Gerard De Pardieu, he was in front of him ad
:27:32. > :27:35.libbing and I started ad libbing and he was looking at us and I don't
:27:36. > :27:42.know what he was thinking. Apparently even in Aladdin he was ad
:27:43. > :27:45.libbing? It is all filmed beforehand, that is what he would
:27:46. > :27:48.have done, he would have just gone off, the script would have been
:27:49. > :27:52.there and he would have gone off seven ways to Sunday. What influence
:27:53. > :27:59.do you think he had on other performers and people like you?
:28:00. > :28:02.Huge. It was immensely huge, you can't actually try to be someone.
:28:03. > :28:08.You can't say I want to be that person, you can add little bits on
:28:09. > :28:13.to your own style. My style was more Woody Allen with Billy Connelly and
:28:14. > :28:16.Richard Prior mixed in. He hit this God-like genius place of being able
:28:17. > :28:20.to do anything, it was political, fast, impression, he would run
:28:21. > :28:23.through the audience, which was more like street performing, which was
:28:24. > :28:28.unusual for stand-ups to do, they don't usually move off the stage. He
:28:29. > :28:32.had this ability to take a room and take it to the stars really. You
:28:33. > :28:43.mentioned Richard Prior and Connelly, where would you rank him
:28:44. > :28:46.on the pan pantheon? He's right up there, and there should never be
:28:47. > :28:52.number ones in creative things, but he's in the top ten of all time.
:28:53. > :28:55.Maybe the top five. It is just, it is rather tragic. I didn't want to
:28:56. > :29:01.come in here and do this, I thought I was discussing this with Steve
:29:02. > :29:05.Coogan it looks like everyone jumps on telly and talks about people. I
:29:06. > :29:11.wanted to say we're going to miss him. Thank you very much.
:29:12. > :29:15.The battle between the on-line retailing megastore Amazon and the
:29:16. > :29:19.international publishing house has reached epic and nasty proportion,
:29:20. > :29:24.Amazon wants the publisher which includes imprints of Little Brown
:29:25. > :29:27.and others, to drop the price at which it sells e-books and
:29:28. > :29:31.publishers and authors are resisting. More than 900 authors in
:29:32. > :29:35.the Sunday Times, many of them not published by the publishing
:29:36. > :29:42.housemaid their anger claim. In a moment, the best-selling thriller
:29:43. > :29:46.writer Lee Child who has sold 100 million books will tell us why he's
:29:47. > :29:58.on the warpath against Amazon. First we have this. Here is a mystery
:29:59. > :30:05.worthy of Chandler, a search for truth as riddled with conspiracy
:30:06. > :30:10.theories as a Dan Brown novel. Both sides will say their motive is love
:30:11. > :30:15.of authors and books in general. Is there something else behind this, is
:30:16. > :30:21.the real root of this not laugh but that other great human motivator,
:30:22. > :30:24.money. Amazon, according to some observers is preparing for a world
:30:25. > :30:30.without publishers, a world where the vast majority of books are made
:30:31. > :30:35.not of ink and paper but ones and noughts. Amazon wants to position
:30:36. > :30:40.itself as the publisher of the future. They have a large e-book
:30:41. > :30:45.sales team, they have their own in-prints, their own brands, they
:30:46. > :30:49.have plenty of home brew and I guess indie authors on the site. They are
:30:50. > :30:54.ready to take the next leap and almost bypass these publishers
:30:55. > :30:59.completely. Hachett is one of the world's biggest publishers with
:31:00. > :31:03.thousands of different titles, Amazon is trying to get them to cut
:31:04. > :31:08.the cost of e-book, until they do sales of some titles on Amazon have
:31:09. > :31:16.been affected. Authors say it is hurting them, 900, including Stephen
:31:17. > :31:20.King and John Grisham have signed a letter saying they have been
:31:21. > :31:23.affected by this. This is one of the novelists who signed the letter. The
:31:24. > :31:28.industry is changing, there are a lot of negotiations to go on between
:31:29. > :31:31.Amazon, the sellers, and the publisher, that is fair enough. That
:31:32. > :31:37.they need to have those negotiations. But what Amazon has
:31:38. > :31:42.done has used authors in this, and to the detriment of writers' sales.
:31:43. > :31:46.You don't see any e-books on the secondhand book stalls of London's
:31:47. > :31:52.South Bank, but there is plenty of evidence of a previous publishing
:31:53. > :31:56.revolution. Amazon's argument is essentially this the e-book is
:31:57. > :32:01.nothing more than the modern equivalent of the paperback. When it
:32:02. > :32:06.was brought in, it radically reduced the cost of reading, and brought in
:32:07. > :32:10.a whole load of new authors and reader, and it was at the time
:32:11. > :32:15.fiercely resisted by some elements of the publishing industry. In
:32:16. > :32:20.response to the authors' united letter, Amazon responded with a
:32:21. > :32:24.website called Readers Unite, on it they say books compete against
:32:25. > :32:28.mobile games, television movies, Facebook blog, free news sites and
:32:29. > :32:31.more. If we want a healthy reading culture, they say, we have to work
:32:32. > :32:34.hard to be sure books are competitive against these other
:32:35. > :32:39.media, and a big part of that is working hard to make books less
:32:40. > :32:48.expensive. Amazon say that dropping the price of an e-book from $14. 99
:32:49. > :32:56.to $9. 99 would give authors a 74% sales boost. That means if an author
:32:57. > :33:03.sells 100,000 copies at $14. 99, it will be 174,000 at $9. 99, it would
:33:04. > :33:08.be more money. So says Amazon, everyone wins. But not every author
:33:09. > :33:13.is buying the logic of those numbers. Amazon's argument is
:33:14. > :33:19.predicated on the fact that all books will sell the same amount.
:33:20. > :33:24.Perhaps it is true that a better-selling author will, if you
:33:25. > :33:27.lower the price below ten dollars for a really Goodselling author they
:33:28. > :33:33.will earn more. That isn't true of the broad range of the industry. How
:33:34. > :33:40.does this particular story end? Well it is not clear, like any great tale
:33:41. > :33:43.it will keep us guessing to the last page.
:33:44. > :33:47.We asked Amazon to come on, but joining us now is Lee Child, the
:33:48. > :33:51.best-selling writer. Amazon among others has made you a very rich man,
:33:52. > :33:57.why are you biting the hand, you are not even a Hachette author? I love
:33:58. > :34:01.Amazon, I have grown up with Amazon, they started around the same time I
:34:02. > :34:06.started, I have a lot of good friends there. The point is exactly
:34:07. > :34:09.that. If you have a good friend who is misbehaving, you don't
:34:10. > :34:13.immediately shoot him in the head and bury them in the woods. You take
:34:14. > :34:18.them aside and have a quiet word with them and you say come on pal,
:34:19. > :34:22.you are out of line, shape up and behave properly. That is what the
:34:23. > :34:25.authors do, me and the other 900 authors that is what we are saying.
:34:26. > :34:32.Do you buy the argument that this is just the version of the pre-Second
:34:33. > :34:36.World War move to paperback? No Amazon sold that sort of stuff,
:34:37. > :34:40.there is a specialised branch of science you can examine the
:34:41. > :34:45.propositions with, it is called arithmetic, their numbers about how
:34:46. > :34:50.many people will buy it at $15 and how many people will buy it at $10,
:34:51. > :34:53.Amazon does not run two different patrol legal universes selling at
:34:54. > :35:00.two different price, the best they can be saying is for every 100
:35:01. > :35:05.people buying at $15, there are 174 at $10. What publishers do is sell
:35:06. > :35:10.the hundred to the people prepared to pay $15 and those prepared to
:35:11. > :35:14.sell $10 and make more money than Amazon says they will make. We are
:35:15. > :35:17.talking about the argument about more people reading the books in a
:35:18. > :35:21.minute, do you think that am zone is squeezing the author, they may be
:35:22. > :35:26.squeezing the publishers but are they squeezing the author?
:35:27. > :35:30.Inevitably by connection. They are squeezing the customer most of all
:35:31. > :35:35.by depriving the customer of what they want. What does the customer
:35:36. > :35:39.want? ??FORCEDYELL The customer wants the books she wants to read,
:35:40. > :35:44.and Amazon is not delivering them at the moment. They are doing a go-slow
:35:45. > :35:49.on Hachette authors? They came out and said they are taking steps to
:35:50. > :35:52.reduce the play of Hachette books. So the customer waiting for her
:35:53. > :36:03.favourite book is not getting it. Very weird for a customer-centric
:36:04. > :36:06.company. They are using the customers as pawn, you have to ask
:36:07. > :36:11.what is behind that. If more people read because of e-book, let's take
:36:12. > :36:16.you, your new book is coming out next month, it is ?20 but on Prime
:36:17. > :36:24.it is ?so and the kinkedle offer will be -- the kinkedle offer will
:36:25. > :36:28.be ?8. 03. If people can't afford it at ?20 they can at ?10 you will get
:36:29. > :36:32.a new reader. I don't think there is a significant number of people who
:36:33. > :36:35.will say ?8 is better than ?10 having bought the machine. I don't
:36:36. > :36:38.think that is a significant difference. Is the difference now
:36:39. > :36:44.that people might not like the Kindle as it stands right now, but
:36:45. > :36:48.technology moves so fast, times within months and years they will
:36:49. > :36:55.produce something more akin to the paperback experience but on Kindle?
:36:56. > :36:58.We already have the paperback, Amazon is fatastically ambitious
:36:59. > :37:04.they want to change the world and dominate, and the Kindle hasn't
:37:05. > :37:12.worked as well assam zone wanted it to. -- as Amazon wanted it to
:37:13. > :37:18.America is two years ahead of the UK market, the Kindle is so 2012, some
:37:19. > :37:20.people tried it and liked it and some didn't, and most people
:37:21. > :37:24.completely indifferent. It has settled into a good solid niche,
:37:25. > :37:27.fine from a business point of view, but not good enough for Amazon, they
:37:28. > :37:32.want to take over the world. If something comes up that is genuinely
:37:33. > :37:37.much better than Kindle, you would agree that authors might be a bit
:37:38. > :37:45.luddite? I don't care how it is delivered, I mean they can hire
:37:46. > :37:49.Scarlet Johansson to whisper it in your ear, fine, as long as you hear
:37:50. > :37:54.my story. Books can't get any cheaper than now, it is not feasible
:37:55. > :37:59.to make them any cheaper, they are extremely cheap right now. In
:38:00. > :38:03.Charles Dickens' England they were seen as shameful and reserved only
:38:04. > :38:15.for those suffering extreme destitution, but pawers' funerals
:38:16. > :38:20.not -- paperes' fume recommends are about, local councils have a duty to
:38:21. > :38:24.fund them. It is a sign they are on the rise. It is a sign they are
:38:25. > :38:33.hidden, we have been to Leeds to follow the story of one man's death.
:38:34. > :38:40.At this cemetery in in Leeds they have just buried man on top two of
:38:41. > :38:45.others. Eventually there might be four or five people in this one
:38:46. > :38:58.plot. People who often die alone, without the means to pay for their
:38:59. > :39:03.own burial. This is what used to be called a pauper's grave, and more
:39:04. > :39:10.and more are being dug across the country. This man was someone we
:39:11. > :39:14.wanted to find out about him. There are people who haven't got family or
:39:15. > :39:18.friends or anyone there is sadness there when you are doing it,
:39:19. > :39:22.unfortunately it is part of the job, you know you are helping somebody at
:39:23. > :39:26.the end of the day. Ahead of the funeral, this social worker is
:39:27. > :39:30.overseeing arrangements. Last year in England alone, local councils
:39:31. > :39:37.paid for more than 3,000 people to be buried in this way. I wouldn't
:39:38. > :39:45.like it if somebody I loved or was being buried and nobody else was
:39:46. > :39:51.there. Local councils must bury people whose relatives are unwilling
:39:52. > :40:00.or able to afford their funerals. Bilal has found out that Malcolm had
:40:01. > :40:03.no family and no funds. We know the 64-year-old had lived here and
:40:04. > :40:08.become increasingly reclusive over time. We have come to meet a
:40:09. > :40:12.neighbour, Leslie, who worried when she hadn't seen anything of him for
:40:13. > :40:17.a bit. We know his habits and going to the shop once day, when we hadn't
:40:18. > :40:22.seen him for a couple of days we investigated to see if he was OK.
:40:23. > :40:26.The estate agent that has been helping him out came down with a key
:40:27. > :40:30.and unfortunately we found him dead at the bottom of the cellar stairs.
:40:31. > :40:34.There is something very poignant about the fact that the social
:40:35. > :40:38.workers are involved, the fact that probably it will be the Leeds
:40:39. > :40:43.council who pay for the funeral. Did you hear of any relatives? No. I
:40:44. > :40:48.have never seen visitors go to Malcolm's house at all. No friends,
:40:49. > :40:56.no family or anything. So as far as we were aware had he nobody. It
:40:57. > :41:01.appears Malcolm was an agonisingly shy man. We couldn't find a picture
:41:02. > :41:04.of him anywhere, we knew he was a printer until he was injured in a
:41:05. > :41:08.bicycle accident. He lived here first with his parents and then
:41:09. > :41:12.alone for nearly 40 years after they died, becoming more and more
:41:13. > :41:18.withdrawn. It seems he left nothing. Leslie and her neighbours have
:41:19. > :41:28.raised ?45 for a wreath. The kind of funeral that he will probably have
:41:29. > :41:31.used to be called a paw per's -- pauper's funeral, how do you feel
:41:32. > :41:35.about that? Everybody goes in a box, the sad thing is not having anybody
:41:36. > :41:43.at the funeral, that is why a few neighbours have got together and
:41:44. > :41:47.would like to say goodbye to him. In the past there was a real stigma
:41:48. > :41:51.attached to pauper's funerals. If relatives could afford a Guinea,
:41:52. > :41:56.their loved ones got a shared grave with their names listed on a head
:41:57. > :42:01.stone. But the poorest were wrapped in a sheet, wheeled over from the
:42:02. > :42:06.work house and buried in communal graves. And the numbers are
:42:07. > :42:11.astonishing. Here at Leeds Beckett Street cemetery, 180,000 people lie
:42:12. > :42:18.beneath the grass, many unmarked and unremembered. We are on our way to
:42:19. > :42:23.the cemetery now. We are due there at 2.00. We are trying to make it as
:42:24. > :42:26.good as we can for him really. Tim is the local funeral director, he
:42:27. > :42:30.says he has seen a rise in the number of burials like Malcolm's,
:42:31. > :42:34.paid for by the council. Sometimes the only people who attend are the
:42:35. > :42:39.minister and undertakers. But Malcolm's neighbours are looking out
:42:40. > :42:42.for him. These people who have made the effort, or who will be making
:42:43. > :42:47.the effort to come along to the service thought something about this
:42:48. > :42:51.chap. To have made the arrangements. They have put their hands in the
:42:52. > :42:54.pockets to buy flowers so he didn't go without any flowers, they have
:42:55. > :42:59.spent time talking to the person who license taking the service, and --
:43:00. > :43:02.who will be taking the service and giving background information. He's
:43:03. > :43:06.somebody who has been respected even though he might have been a loner or
:43:07. > :43:12.someone who liked to keep himself to himself. Pauper's funerals are now
:43:13. > :43:16.called section 46 funerals. Although it is difficult to obtain figure,
:43:17. > :43:28.recent research suggests in England the numbers have gone up nearly 40%
:43:29. > :43:31.in five years. Whilst the state is the last safety net for people like
:43:32. > :43:35.Malcolm, those who have organised the service still want to send him
:43:36. > :43:41.off with as much dignity as funds allow. Another familiar sight on the
:43:42. > :43:47.lane would be Malcolm on his bees Celt, a slim dark-haired man and
:43:48. > :43:52.always clean shaven, but wearing inconspicuous clothes. The minister
:43:53. > :43:57.Victoria Carter believes it is her job to make sure everyone is treated
:43:58. > :44:02.the same in death. We always try our best to try to find out as much
:44:03. > :44:06.information as we can, to try to make the social services funerals
:44:07. > :44:17.just as personal as every other funeral. We Raul like all -- all
:44:18. > :44:22.like to be buried with members of our family, they may have been alone
:44:23. > :44:29.in life at least they are buried with people like them. We now commit
:44:30. > :44:36.Malcolm's body to the ground. Earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to
:44:37. > :44:41.dust. A section 46 funeral costs Leeds council around ?1700. Most
:44:42. > :44:49.here are buried not cremated because it is cheaper. To him be glory
:44:50. > :44:53.forever. Amen. In England half of the people given a section 46
:44:54. > :45:05.funeral are under 65. Three-quarters are men. Goodbye Malcolm, go in
:45:06. > :45:10.peace. Margaret and Jennifer are sisters who knew Malcolm as a boy.
:45:11. > :45:15.Do you think there is still a stigma attached to a funeral like this?
:45:16. > :45:22.There shouldn't be, because you know if you believe in God and we do, it
:45:23. > :45:28.doesn't matter whether you have a penny or a million pounds. It
:45:29. > :45:31.doesn't matter to God. What do you think this shy man would have
:45:32. > :45:36.thought about lots of you turning up for his funeral? I think he would
:45:37. > :45:40.have been shocked, to be quite honest. He wouldn't have come. No he
:45:41. > :45:45.wouldn't. He wouldn't have turned up. He wouldn't have come to his own
:45:46. > :45:49.funeral, he would have been too shy. He wouldn't have turned up! When
:45:50. > :45:55.this grave is full, there will be a head stone engraved with the names
:45:56. > :45:58.of all the people inside. For Malcolm Horncastle it will be the
:45:59. > :46:03.mark of a life lived quietly, something to remember him by.
:46:04. > :46:08.That's all we have time for tonight, we end the show with a final bit of
:46:09. > :46:18.home spun wisdom, curtesy of the late, great Robin Williams. Good
:46:19. > :46:33.night. Mork alling Orson, come in Orson, Mork calling Orson, come in
:46:34. > :46:37.Orson, yo battle star gigantic ia. What have you got to report? I don't
:46:38. > :46:42.have much value in this universe, I know a few people are happier than
:46:43. > :46:49.they would have been without me, as long as I have that I'm as happy as
:46:50. > :46:59.I can be. I will catch you next week, nanu-nanu. Some showers
:47:00. > :47:00.through the night and a fresh start to the day.