:00:00. > :00:13.The voice of Islamic State has a British accent.
:00:14. > :00:18.As a Government cover you have been at the forefront of aggression
:00:19. > :00:24.towards Islamic State. You have plotted against us and we have had
:00:25. > :00:25.to go out of our way to find ways to defend ourselves.
:00:26. > :00:27.a British accent. The American journalist beheaded
:00:28. > :00:29.thousands of miles away was killed, it seems,
:00:30. > :00:33.by a Jihadi from our streets. His fellow British extremist
:00:34. > :00:37.tells us as far as he's concerned, executions of Americans and Britons
:00:38. > :00:40.are fair game. The murder's brought David Cameron
:00:41. > :00:42.home early from holiday - with a promise to stop British
:00:43. > :00:49.extremists travelling abroad. But how else should we react?
:00:50. > :00:51.Kurdish forces struggle to push the extremists back.
:00:52. > :00:59.We're on Northern Iraq's front line, as thousands of refugees
:01:00. > :01:01.flee for their lives. leaving loved
:01:02. > :01:04.ones to an uncertain fate. It's all too familiar - as the
:01:05. > :01:06.unrest in Missouri continues, what can they learn from Los Angeles,
:01:07. > :01:09.torn apart by riots in 1992? "Each unhappy family is unhappy
:01:10. > :01:12.in its own way" - the wife of the author
:01:13. > :01:16.of those words is about to make her publishing
:01:17. > :01:17.debut, 100 years late. We'll debate the hidden talent in
:01:18. > :01:33.those tortured artistic marriages. Good evening. The accent betrays it
:01:34. > :01:39.- James Foley's killer was not from the lands he claims to defend, but
:01:40. > :01:43.appears to have been from Britain. His clear, fanatical willingness to
:01:44. > :01:45.murder an innocent man, a contrast perhaps to Iraq and the West's
:01:46. > :01:50.stuttering attempts to defeat Islamic State.
:01:51. > :01:53.Foley's eerily calm, forced delivery of a message that
:01:54. > :01:58.blamed his own country for his fate, followed by, as you're about to
:01:59. > :02:04.hear, the cold words of his killer, addressed directly to Barack Obama.
:02:05. > :02:11.Today, your military air force is attacking us daily in Iraq. Your
:02:12. > :02:15.strikes have caused casualties amongst Muslims.
:02:16. > :02:18.The American had been working as a freelance journalist
:02:19. > :02:23.when he was kidnapped in Syria in 2012. Earlier today, his family
:02:24. > :02:30.spoke of their pride in him. We know Jimmy is free, finally free,
:02:31. > :02:39.and we know he is in God's hands. We know he is... Doing God's work
:02:40. > :02:42.and we know he is in heaven. The killing
:02:43. > :02:48.has been condemned across the West, but the vexed question, how to
:02:49. > :02:52.respond? Tonight, the United States has continued its air strikes
:02:53. > :02:55.against Islamic State in Iraq and vowed to carry out more in an
:02:56. > :02:59.attempt to buttress Kurdish forces in the North. President Obama said
:03:00. > :03:04.America would continue "to do what we must do".
:03:05. > :03:08.Friends and allies around the world, we share a
:03:09. > :03:13.common security and a common set of values that are rooted in the
:03:14. > :03:16.opposite of what we saw yesterday and we will continue to confront
:03:17. > :03:21.this hateful terrorism and replace it with a sense of hope and
:03:22. > :03:22.civility. That is what Jim Foley stood for.
:03:23. > :03:27.Here, David Cameron cut short his holiday, returning to
:03:28. > :03:34.Downing Street to hold emergency meetings. His challenge, though, is
:03:35. > :03:41.not just what to do in Iraq but how to start extremism starting at home
:03:42. > :03:44.and then spreading throughout the world. This battle we face against
:03:45. > :03:49.Islamist extremism, not the religion of Islam, but a poisonous,
:03:50. > :03:51.extremist, violence narrative, is a generational struggle.
:03:52. > :03:56.It's a battle we have to fight in our own country,
:03:57. > :03:59.it's a battle that with allies, using everything
:04:00. > :04:02.we have, our aid, our diplomacy and, yes, on occasions, our military
:04:03. > :04:05.prowess, but we have to fight, whether it is dealing with this
:04:06. > :04:13.problem in Somalia, in Mali, in Afghanistan, in Iraq and Syria.
:04:14. > :04:20.Richard Watson is here, he has studied British extremists for many
:04:21. > :04:25.years. Can we be sure this man is British? It looks that way, we can't
:04:26. > :04:28.be absolutely certain that even a casual observation of the video
:04:29. > :04:33.suggests his voices from London, perhaps. We won't know until they
:04:34. > :04:36.actually confirm that, of course, so we could have a British citizen
:04:37. > :04:41.murdering, in cold blood, an American citizen. How will the
:04:42. > :04:45.police and security services go about trying to identify him? There
:04:46. > :04:49.are two things they will be doing right now. The first is voice
:04:50. > :04:53.recognition, trawling through using supercomputers on both sides of the
:04:54. > :04:57.Atlantic, thousands of voices on file. That does assume they have
:04:58. > :05:02.something on file to compare the video to. This brings up the
:05:03. > :05:06.question of whether this person has some intelligence trace whether they
:05:07. > :05:10.are a clean skin. In all likelihood, they will have some kind of
:05:11. > :05:14.intelligence trace and identification won't be that
:05:15. > :05:19.difficult. The striking thing, as you suggest, is we potentially have
:05:20. > :05:21.a British citizen killing an American citizen and as David
:05:22. > :05:28.Cameron is suggesting, the implication for the threat here. How
:05:29. > :05:32.big is it? It is very significant. I spoke to one Jihadi contact, who
:05:33. > :05:36.knows the scene quite well under Al-Qaeda and says it is very much
:05:37. > :05:40.more dangerous than the situation when Al-Qaeda was the principal
:05:41. > :05:44.threat. This new threat is much more significant. The current analysis
:05:45. > :05:49.from the Security service is that a friend about 500 people are assessed
:05:50. > :05:55.to have travelled and to Syria to join the most extreme elements, ISIS
:05:56. > :05:59.and the most extreme elements of the spectrum. My sources are telling me
:06:00. > :06:07.that 260 of those people have returned to the UK already. 260 are
:06:08. > :06:11.already back here? Already back in the UK, which represent a very large
:06:12. > :06:15.potential threat to the UK and that is being taken very seriously.
:06:16. > :06:19.Although it is true to say that the vast majority of those people
:06:20. > :06:23.weren't wished to attack Britain, it is certainly possible that some will
:06:24. > :06:26.have that aspiration in mind -- will not wish to attack Britain. Richard,
:06:27. > :06:30.thank you very much indeed. Afghanistan, in Iraq and Syria.
:06:31. > :06:34.The identity of the man is not yet clear. But what do we know about the
:06:35. > :06:38.mindset that would lead a young man or woman not just to believe in the
:06:39. > :06:42.IS cause, but to travel to the dangerous region, and be ready
:06:43. > :06:48.to fight and kill? Secunder Kermani's
:06:49. > :07:01.Been in contact with a British man to that cause.
:07:02. > :07:08.Who is this man question mark yesterday, we saw him kill
:07:09. > :07:11.journalist John Foley. His action, condemned by many, have been praised
:07:12. > :07:16.by members of the group Islamic State. I have been speaking to two
:07:17. > :07:20.British Jihadis fighting in Britain today about their reaction to the
:07:21. > :07:24.video. Despite evidence to the contrary, they both believed Foley
:07:25. > :07:27.was an American soldier, not a journalist. I have been speaking to
:07:28. > :07:32.one of the men for around three months by instant message services.
:07:33. > :07:35.He has given me an insight into the mentality of the British men
:07:36. > :07:46.fighting alongside the group Islamic State. His name references are dead
:07:47. > :07:50.Iraqi cleric, but he is a British man part of the Islamic State
:07:51. > :07:56.advance toward Aleppo, shot and injured last week. He says he went
:07:57. > :08:01.to Syria to fight the asset atrocities and eventually joined the
:08:02. > :08:06.Islamic State. It was the only group fighting for the return of the
:08:07. > :08:12.Khalifa. The other groups claimed to be Islamic, but actions proved
:08:13. > :08:17.otherwise. After capturing towns around Aleppo last week, Islamic
:08:18. > :08:22.State fighters allegedly beheaded groups of other fighters. I asked if
:08:23. > :08:26.it was true. Yes, we kind of beheaded some guys as well. I
:08:27. > :08:31.believe there were maybe three or four guys that we beheaded. There
:08:32. > :08:35.may have been more, but I am not aware of them, I am aware of the
:08:36. > :08:39.three or four guys we beheaded and put their heads, as usual, in the
:08:40. > :08:44.middle of the town centre. The reason for putting them in the town
:08:45. > :08:47.centre is to demoralise or cause fear in the hearts of the spies who
:08:48. > :08:52.are amongst us, because we know there are a lot of spies amongst us.
:08:53. > :08:56.Islamic states say they killed Foley in response to US air strikes
:08:57. > :09:00.against the group in Iraq. Before those strikes had even taken place,
:09:01. > :09:04.I asked despite what the response would be to any American action
:09:05. > :09:10.against them. His answers, at times, sounded like pure propaganda. Bring
:09:11. > :09:14.your soldiers, new American soldiers. Your British soldiers,
:09:15. > :09:20.bring them to ISIS. We will send them back one by one as corpses.
:09:21. > :09:24.Also, America does not need to attack ISIS in Iraq for us to attack
:09:25. > :09:31.them back. America started the war against Muslims along time ago. So
:09:32. > :09:35.even if American troops do not come on our soil, we will come to an
:09:36. > :09:37.American soil to slaughter your soldiers, the way you have
:09:38. > :09:44.slaughtered our brothers and sisters. I asked him about other
:09:45. > :09:51.atrocities committed by Islamic State, like the mass executions of
:09:52. > :09:54.captured Shia soldiers in Iraq. It is principle, it is people that
:09:55. > :10:00.oppressors. They had tortured our brothers and sisters in prison. It
:10:01. > :10:04.is permissible for us to execute them just as it is permissible for
:10:05. > :10:08.our brothers in the UK to execute returning soldiers from Iraq and
:10:09. > :10:12.Afghanistan. It is permissible. This touches on one of the main fear is
:10:13. > :10:16.articulated by the security services, but British fighters in
:10:17. > :10:21.Syria could return to launch an attack here. I hate the UK. The only
:10:22. > :10:27.reason I would intend to return back to the UK is because I want to go
:10:28. > :10:30.and plant a bomb somewhere. Of the answers are shocking, but in
:10:31. > :10:35.contrast to his angry and violent tone, for much of our interaction,
:10:36. > :10:41.he was softly spoken. I asked him what led him down this radical path.
:10:42. > :10:46.To be honest with you, I was living the life of the opposite Pat, I
:10:47. > :10:51.would doss around so much and I started questioning, what am I
:10:52. > :10:55.doing? Feeling like a lost sheep in this world, I started to question
:10:56. > :11:01.what I was doing. So how do we confront that kind of
:11:02. > :11:06.belief, here or in the United States. Doctor Janine Davidson, who
:11:07. > :11:09.worked in Obama's defence, is with this,
:11:10. > :11:13.Kermani's and Afzal Ashraf, fellow at RUSI.
:11:14. > :11:18.and firstly, how do you react to hearing a young man talk so
:11:19. > :11:26.callously and coldly and placing some -- no value on human life? It
:11:27. > :11:30.is an old narrative, it is not new. It has been there for the last ten
:11:31. > :11:34.or 15 years, since Al-Qaeda came on the scene, and what they do to
:11:35. > :11:40.justify this callous behaviour is they say the West has conducted
:11:41. > :11:48.operations against us with that sort of coldness and callous attitude. Of
:11:49. > :11:52.course, it is wrong, but that is how they justify their lack of
:11:53. > :11:58.compassion. But how do we confronted when it does have a truly shocking
:11:59. > :12:03.flavour of no regard at all for human life or the safety of other
:12:04. > :12:07.people? There are lots of things to do to confront it. I think the Prime
:12:08. > :12:10.Minister mention many of the things being done, the intelligence
:12:11. > :12:14.services are working very hard, they do a lot of work which they cannot
:12:15. > :12:19.reveal, to counter this sort of thing. There are counter
:12:20. > :12:24.radicalisation initiatives in many communities, but the one thing that
:12:25. > :12:29.will definitely confront it is the concept of success. They believe
:12:30. > :12:35.they are going to succeed. What we need to do is show that they are not
:12:36. > :12:39.going to succeed. Al-Qaeda, ten years ago, started with a very
:12:40. > :12:44.similar narrative. It has failed. This organisation has come out of
:12:45. > :12:48.Al-Qaeda's failure and what they are now experiencing, the reason for
:12:49. > :12:53.this video yesterday, was simply because they are beginning to feel
:12:54. > :12:59.that they are failing. They now have the Peshmerga on the doorstep of
:13:00. > :13:04.their capital, Mosul. Doctor Janine Davidson, does this look like the
:13:05. > :13:08.start of the Islamic State failure to you? Well, I do think that the
:13:09. > :13:13.acts that we have seen in the last day, the tragic beheading,
:13:14. > :13:18.demonstrates the barbaric behaviour of this group on the one hand. On
:13:19. > :13:21.the other hand, it does, I think, demonstrate a little bit of
:13:22. > :13:26.desperation, but they are resorting to something like this, it
:13:27. > :13:32.demonstrates that they don't have as many options as they think they
:13:33. > :13:36.have. John McCain, for example, tonight is suggesting they should be
:13:37. > :13:39.a significant increase in the American response and there will be
:13:40. > :13:44.many citizens right around the world look at this video and say, yes, it
:13:45. > :13:49.is now time for something much more drastic than supporting Kurdish
:13:50. > :13:53.forces in northern Iraq. What would you do? Well, I do think that we
:13:54. > :14:00.need a measured and a strong response, we need to continue to
:14:01. > :14:05.build on this is an act of desperation, kind of what I am
:14:06. > :14:08.saying is the air strikes and the coordinated efforts with the Iraqi
:14:09. > :14:13.army and Kurdish forces have clearly pushed them back on their heels a
:14:14. > :14:17.little bit. If we were to say, OK, good enough, we did the humanitarian
:14:18. > :14:20.thing and pushed them back from the Mosul dam, they will come back,
:14:21. > :14:27.definitely. They're recruiting is enormous, there are people flocking
:14:28. > :14:33.to their sanctuary in Syria to join this group. As long as this group
:14:34. > :14:40.appears to be succeeding, they will continue to attract recruits and
:14:41. > :14:44.continue to attract groups like those in Indonesia who, in the last
:14:45. > :14:50.couple of weeks, have both said they are going to affiliate with the IS
:14:51. > :14:54.group. Set in concrete terms, what should we do? There is talk in
:14:55. > :15:03.Washington of hundreds of extra troops going to Baghdad. In the long
:15:04. > :15:12.term, the regional actors need to reject this ideology. We need a
:15:13. > :15:18.multi regional effort. If we do not consolidate our tactical military
:15:19. > :15:24.efforts, then we are not going to succeed. What really needs to
:15:25. > :15:32.happen, unfortunately we have to admit that this is a group that is
:15:33. > :15:35.on the verge of becoming a terrorist army capability wise, that operates
:15:36. > :15:44.across the boundaries between Syria and Iraq. We consider those two
:15:45. > :15:47.things separate conflicts. But if we are going to roll back their
:15:48. > :15:52.momentum, we have got to get to the sanctuaries in Syria. I would
:15:53. > :15:59.recommend we need to take out their training camps there. In terms of
:16:00. > :16:04.David Cameron's ambition, he says he wants to defeat IS. The difficulty
:16:05. > :16:08.is that similar ideologies have been around for more than a decade and we
:16:09. > :16:11.have heard these kinds of things before. We have urged regional
:16:12. > :16:16.actors to work more closely together. Is it realistic per David
:16:17. > :16:25.Cameron to say we should defeat IS? It is a realistic expectation. The
:16:26. > :16:35.reason IS exist is because Al-Qaeda failed. The forerunner of IS
:16:36. > :16:39.affiliated with Al-Qaeda in 2004. It does not matter to most people what
:16:40. > :16:46.it is called. What matters is what is actually happening on the ground?
:16:47. > :16:50.You are right. But the point is for them to succeed they have got to
:16:51. > :16:55.become more shocking, more appalling and more exclusive. What they have
:16:56. > :17:00.now done is they are at war with everybody around them. This video is
:17:01. > :17:06.shocking to us in London and Washington. There have been other
:17:07. > :17:10.videos, hundreds of videos, of beheadings of shears, Sunnis etc.
:17:11. > :17:19.They are killing everybody around them. They do not trust even their
:17:20. > :17:22.own. They are paranoid about spies. This is an organisation that is
:17:23. > :17:30.imploding ideological. Thank you both.
:17:31. > :17:35.While the killing of an American cranks up the pressure on the west
:17:36. > :17:37.to intensify their response, Islamic state continues its push across
:17:38. > :17:42.parts of the Middle East, killing Christians and Muslims. Swathes of
:17:43. > :17:48.people fleeing their homes. We have been to northern Iraq, or 200,000
:17:49. > :17:59.refugees have arrived in the past few weeks, in search of safety.
:18:00. > :18:09.How can a country have a future when it is losing its next generation? At
:18:10. > :18:14.this refugee camp, children are chanting, no Iraq, no Iraq! At camps
:18:15. > :18:21.across the region every day hundreds of desperate and exhausted Iraqis
:18:22. > :18:25.arriving to flee IS militants. In searing heat of more than 50
:18:26. > :18:31.degrees, they wait, unsure of what will come next. The Yazidi minority
:18:32. > :18:37.group had felt the full force of IS militants. Many of the survivors are
:18:38. > :18:46.separated from their families. They tell of relatives kidnapped and sold
:18:47. > :18:51.into slavery. Refugees are spilling out into every corner of this city.
:18:52. > :18:56.This ancient religious sect have lived in northern Iraq for thousands
:18:57. > :19:01.of years. Now advancing Islamic State fighters have told them to
:19:02. > :19:12.convert to Islam or die. In an abandoned building, they remember
:19:13. > :19:16.one of their dead. This 19-year-old man was killed at a
:19:17. > :19:21.checkpoint as his family fled their home. The family were separated when
:19:22. > :20:08.they came under attack. Your sister is still missing?
:20:09. > :20:19.The family have searched along the Syrian border and surrounding
:20:20. > :20:23.villages. But they fear kidnapped by Islamic State militants. Her
:20:24. > :20:27.father's family have lived in the region for generations. A face the
:20:28. > :20:28.prospect of never being able to return.
:20:29. > :21:08.-- they face the prospect. 30 Minutes Drive away, they took me
:21:09. > :21:11.to meet their sister-in-law, injured in the firefight. She showed me her
:21:12. > :21:28.wounds. She is still waiting for treatment.
:21:29. > :21:52.The bullets have not been removed. But it is not just the Yazidis who
:21:53. > :21:55.have been persecuted. The Christians, and other minority group
:21:56. > :21:59.who have lived in Iraq for 2000 years, are also now internally
:22:00. > :22:10.displaced people, driven from their homes. For a local volunteers, the
:22:11. > :22:14.challenge is enormous. The local population is around
:22:15. > :22:22.13,000. We have about 25,000 refugees. Health care is very
:22:23. > :22:30.difficult. There are too many people without enough health care.
:22:31. > :22:34.There is anger here. The Yazidi is in particular feel abandoned and
:22:35. > :22:41.betrayed. Much of their anger is directed towards the Kurdish
:22:42. > :22:45.military, the Peshmerga. Those people have been prompted by
:22:46. > :22:51.Peshmerga. They will defend him. They will be there until the end of
:22:52. > :22:56.their life. They do not believe what has happened because the Peshmerga
:22:57. > :23:02.left the area. Like many Iraqis, these people feel the country holds
:23:03. > :23:07.no future for them. Ali's mother and sister were kidnapped as they
:23:08. > :23:14.attempted to flee to Mount Sinjar. I hear something maybe you did not
:23:15. > :23:25.hear. They are selling my sister and mother. The other people they called
:23:26. > :23:32.me. $600. No like Iraq. We don't like. It is a sentiment echoed
:23:33. > :23:35.across the region. 100 miles north-west, the Peshmerga are
:23:36. > :23:42.attempting to push back the IS advance. In the last four weeks,
:23:43. > :23:49.this Brigadier and his soldiers every taken three nearby villages
:23:50. > :23:53.from IS fighters. It is a constant challenge holding them back. This is
:23:54. > :23:59.the front line. We cannot go beyond this point. IS militants are just
:24:00. > :24:06.two kilometres away. These Kurdish forces are the only ones fighting
:24:07. > :24:09.IS. What are they fighting for? No longer a united Iraq. Their fight is
:24:10. > :24:27.for their own state, an independent Kurdistan.
:24:28. > :24:32.But if there were to arise here, are you satisfied your men would be able
:24:33. > :24:48.to defend this area? -- arrive. He rejects accusations the Peshmerga
:24:49. > :25:01.did little to against IS brutality.
:25:02. > :25:26.-- the Yazidis. Many villages like this are now
:25:27. > :25:30.usually quiet. Abandoned. Even if they could, people do not want to
:25:31. > :25:33.return. Their homes have become the front line in the war against IS.
:25:34. > :25:41.return. Their homes have become the threat from militants, Iraq is on
:25:42. > :25:47.the brink of becoming a failed state. Is -- it's ever deepening
:25:48. > :25:52.social divisions and sectarian violence around doing the very
:25:53. > :25:56.fabric of this nation. Another night, another set of
:25:57. > :26:02.clashes between young people on the streets of an American suburb and
:26:03. > :26:06.the police. The American Attorney General travelled to Ferguson,
:26:07. > :26:10.Missouri today, to try to soothe tensions between the two site after
:26:11. > :26:15.an 18-year-old was shot dead by an officer of more than a week ago.
:26:16. > :26:19.Stand-offs between police and African-American protestors are not
:26:20. > :26:25.new. " -- how can communities move on? Alastair Leithead has been to
:26:26. > :26:32.Los Angeles to find the lessons of the 1992 race riots.
:26:33. > :26:38.We are getting words this evening of rock-throwing by youths in South
:26:39. > :26:40.Central Los Angeles. It follows the Rodney King beating.
:26:41. > :26:44.Central Los Angeles. It follows the Central, Los Angeles. Riots,
:26:45. > :26:49.violence and looting spread across the city. The Los Angeles Police
:26:50. > :26:54.Department was institutionally racist. Police brutality was
:26:55. > :27:00.endemic. The beating of Rodney King was the proof on video tape of an
:27:01. > :27:06.everyday reality. For years people had a grievance about what they call
:27:07. > :27:12.police abuse. And they either complained about it or didn't
:27:13. > :27:16.complain about it, but they never saw that it was resolved or
:27:17. > :27:21.believable. What Rodney King did on video tape validated every abuse
:27:22. > :27:27.complaint that people ever had. They were able to point at it and say,
:27:28. > :27:30.that happened to me. When the policemen responsible were
:27:31. > :27:38.acquitted, the city exploded. Dozens died in six days of violence. They
:27:39. > :27:44.say the same thing in Ferguson, Missouri today. But just two days
:27:45. > :27:48.after Michael Brown was killed in Ferguson, a 24-year-old unarmed
:27:49. > :27:53.African American man was shot dead in LA. The protests over his killing
:27:54. > :27:56.have not been as big in LA. The protests over his killing
:27:57. > :28:01.There has been little media attention.
:28:02. > :28:06.He was in his own little world. He was special. He had special needs.
:28:07. > :28:09.'s family say he had learning difficulties. Witnesses say he was
:28:10. > :28:14.lying face down when a police man shot him in the back. The LAPD say
:28:15. > :28:20.there was a struggle as he went for the officer's gone. The community is
:28:21. > :28:27.furious. Crewe we on -- we all want the same
:28:28. > :28:32.thing. For the truth to come out. I know exactly what everybody in this
:28:33. > :28:36.audience once. The LA police chief came to the meeting to hear
:28:37. > :28:45.people's concerns. There were many. Have some respect.
:28:46. > :28:51.My question is when insist copper to be named, indicted and convicted?
:28:52. > :28:57.How many more times are we going to have to come here to hear the same
:28:58. > :29:02.old you know what. There is a huge amount of anger here. But it is a
:29:03. > :29:07.remarkable contrast to the reaction we have seen in Ferguson, Missouri.
:29:08. > :29:09.This is a community meeting, with people able to take the microphone
:29:10. > :29:14.and talk directly to the police chief.
:29:15. > :29:19.It is really important that they understand 20, 25 views ago, we
:29:20. > :29:23.would not have had this conversation. There would have been
:29:24. > :29:28.an enormous amount of antipathy. The community would not have trusted us
:29:29. > :29:33.to come to this forum. A great deal date change in the wake of the LA
:29:34. > :29:38.riots. The LA police chief resigned. More black and Hispanic officers
:29:39. > :29:42.were recruited. Ties with the team unity improved. There is still
:29:43. > :29:52.tension. Daniel Solomon believes the police need to be more closely
:29:53. > :29:55.monitored. This is how he does it. I record the police, try to hold them
:29:56. > :30:02.accountable, restore some transparency and try and keep them
:30:03. > :30:07.behaving themselves. Daniel filmed the protests. He thinks everybody
:30:08. > :30:11.should record the police. Police in a lot of areas are out of control
:30:12. > :30:15.and I am trying to encourage the people to take out their cameras,
:30:16. > :30:20.recorder police and keep them accountable. The immediate question
:30:21. > :30:25.is how to quickly bring to an end the violence in Ferguson, Missouri.
:30:26. > :30:29.In LA, they used the National Guard and overwhelming force. The lesson
:30:30. > :30:32.learned is that the long-term solution takes many, many years of
:30:33. > :30:40.rebuilding trust and a real determination to change. With me
:30:41. > :30:46.from Washington, DC is the civil rights leader Jesse Jackson and from
:30:47. > :30:52.New York, the former head of the NYPD, Carnation Bernard Kerik. Mr
:30:53. > :30:57.Jackson, you will remember the LA riots and you have been to Ferguson.
:30:58. > :31:07.How can that community move on? I cannot hear you well. We will sort
:31:08. > :31:12.that divine out. -- at line-out. I can hear you know. Excellent, I will
:31:13. > :31:15.ask again. You will remember the LA riots very well and you have
:31:16. > :31:18.travelled to Ferguson. How can the community move on and break the
:31:19. > :31:24.stand-off between the two sides? When you have mistrust and
:31:25. > :31:30.discontent, people feeling abandoned, it becomes like dry
:31:31. > :31:40.chips. Then some spark of brutality triggers the explosion and you look
:31:41. > :31:45.at the coroner's report from 50 or 60 years ago, from New York, to
:31:46. > :31:49.Detroit, to LA, it was always the spark that unleashed the fury. In
:31:50. > :31:54.Ferguson, you have overwhelming and excessive force reacting to a
:31:55. > :32:00.policeman who shot a boy in broad daylight and killed him, shot him
:32:01. > :32:10.six times, and so far he has not even been a suspect, let alone being
:32:11. > :32:15.charged, which compounds the sense of defiance. You say the police in
:32:16. > :32:18.Ferguson have used excessive force during the protest. Are they not
:32:19. > :32:25.just trying to ensure the safety of the community there? It is excessive
:32:26. > :32:31.force, to bring out the military tanks and the military armour and
:32:32. > :32:36.the gas masks, that was unnecessary. It was sort of embarrassing, they
:32:37. > :32:41.swept everybody, including journalists, and the next night,
:32:42. > :32:45.they pulled everybody out, so there was no protection at all, the next
:32:46. > :32:56.date was a curfew. It looks like the police did not know what they were
:32:57. > :33:01.doing. They have a record. 6% of the police force are African-American,
:33:02. > :33:10.there is a cultural divide and it is creating hostilities. This is, I
:33:11. > :33:16.might add, that Ferguson is going to be a metaphor for urban America, and
:33:17. > :33:20.unless there is a more comprehensive policy to deal with unemployment and
:33:21. > :33:28.police relations, it could spread open. Bernard Kerik, Jesse Jackson
:33:29. > :33:34.is blaming excessive police force. He said it has been the equivalent
:33:35. > :33:38.of martial law, do you accept that? Not necessarily. I have been vocal
:33:39. > :33:43.on this, I disagreed with the police response on the first night. You
:33:44. > :33:48.have unarmed protesters who were obviously unarmed, protesting
:33:49. > :33:55.peacefully, and you had a response with semiautomatic weapons aimed at
:33:56. > :34:01.some of these people, the tactical gear that was being used and brought
:34:02. > :34:06.out publicly, I think that incited a lot of people in the community. I
:34:07. > :34:13.think it really did a disservice to the situation. However, we have seen
:34:14. > :34:17.since where there has been gunfire in the crowd, Molotov cocktails
:34:18. > :34:21.thrown, there has been enormous public and private property
:34:22. > :34:24.destruction by the protesters. Well, we live in a society where you have
:34:25. > :34:30.to be held accountable and the police have to respond to force with
:34:31. > :34:33.force, and I think that is what they have done. Reverend Jackson, they
:34:34. > :34:41.have to respond, they have no choice? Well, what is driving the
:34:42. > :34:45.gangster? It is that this young man was shot and for seven days, they
:34:46. > :34:49.concealed the name of the policeman who shot him in broad daylight and
:34:50. > :34:54.then, before they released the name, they released a tape of a robbery
:34:55. > :35:00.that had nothing to do with him being shot, because he was shot down
:35:01. > :35:03.the street later, not as a suspect, but walking across the street in his
:35:04. > :35:07.own neighbourhood. People saw that as an attempt to discredit the dead
:35:08. > :35:14.man and give some privilege to the killer cop. Then two days later,
:35:15. > :35:20.there has still been no apology, no contrition, no sense of reaching
:35:21. > :35:23.out, it has all been by the police department, defensive. I think they
:35:24. > :35:27.have botched an opportunity, people black and white want to come
:35:28. > :35:33.together but I have seen in this instance, bad policing. Commissioner
:35:34. > :35:35.Bernard Kerik, beyond the incompetence you have both suggested
:35:36. > :35:41.in those first days of this protest, what should the police do
:35:42. > :35:47.in a situation like this? You have experience of leading the NYPD
:35:48. > :35:51.during a uniquely anxious time in New York at the 9/11, how should the
:35:52. > :35:57.police approach such times public anxiety? First and foremost, I think
:35:58. > :36:02.that they have to be more public and they have to communicate more with
:36:03. > :36:07.the community. I didn't see the governor had publicly until I think
:36:08. > :36:11.the third or fourth day, but it may have been longer -- out publicly.
:36:12. > :36:15.They should be holding daily press conferences, talking to the
:36:16. > :36:18.community daily, interacting with the community daily, but I want to
:36:19. > :36:23.go back to one thing the Reverend talked about and that is the officer
:36:24. > :36:27.that was involved in the shooting. I have to stress to the people
:36:28. > :36:33.watching the show, there is a due process in this country. We live by
:36:34. > :36:38.the Constitution. People are calling for justice, well let justice be
:36:39. > :36:43.done with the process taking place and then let a grand jury decide
:36:44. > :36:50.whether this person is guilty. We have crucified him, the media, the
:36:51. > :36:55.politicians have crucified this officer, some people calling him a
:36:56. > :36:58.murderer. That has not been determined yet. There is a process
:36:59. > :37:02.we should follow, there are laws that have to be followed, there is
:37:03. > :37:07.an investigation that has been thoroughly conducted by the local
:37:08. > :37:10.state and federal authorities. Let them and a grand jury make the
:37:11. > :37:15.determination on what happened and not these political pundits, not the
:37:16. > :37:19.general public, not the critics. Let the process take its place, that is
:37:20. > :37:26.the law of this country. Reverend Jackson? Michael Brown was denied
:37:27. > :37:33.due process, the police was a judge, jury and executioner. He was
:37:34. > :37:37.unarmed, 18 years old, in his own neighbourhood and there was no need
:37:38. > :37:43.to shoot him down and leave him lying in the street, rotting like a
:37:44. > :37:47.dog. Whatever the rights and wrongs of what happened, Reverend Jackson,
:37:48. > :37:51.would it not at this moment in time be right for people to see
:37:52. > :37:55.leadership? Would it not have been helpful for the president, not the
:37:56. > :38:01.Attorney General, the first African-American president, to go to
:38:02. > :38:12.Ferguson and appeal for calm? I think absence is the quiet -- do not
:38:13. > :38:18.need absence in -- quietness in the absence of noise. I would like to
:38:19. > :38:22.think that police Department is getting federal funds, I do not
:38:23. > :38:32.think they should get any because they do not read the standards for
:38:33. > :38:35.gender and race equality. The situation is simply volatile. I hope
:38:36. > :38:41.we will calm the fears of all the people involved, I regret there has
:38:42. > :38:46.been the tear gas as well as the Molotov cocktails, but I think the
:38:47. > :38:51.police chiefs' lack of civility has been a big factor in driving things
:38:52. > :38:57.out of control. Gentlemen, thank you very much for your time, we must
:38:58. > :39:00.leave it there. Now, you know something special happens in
:39:01. > :39:04.Edinburgh this time of year but this time tomorrow, something rather
:39:05. > :39:08.special is happening on Newsnight. Here is Kirsty.
:39:09. > :39:11.Tomorrow night, we live from the Edinburgh Festival, and four weeks
:39:12. > :39:16.from the vote, the referendum is everywhere, in stand-up comedy, on
:39:17. > :39:20.the street, taxis, and even politicians on soapboxes. Join us
:39:21. > :39:23.with special guests including Rory Bremner, Simon Callow and a host of
:39:24. > :39:25.others, when we put the referendum centrestage.
:39:26. > :39:31.and Afzal Ashraf, fellow at RUSI. Behind every great man, there's a
:39:32. > :39:33.great... Well, you know how the saying
:39:34. > :39:37.goes. One of the greatest writers may indeed have had a great rival
:39:38. > :39:40.behind him - well, at least in his household. In fact, in his own
:39:41. > :39:47.stormy marriage. This is the Tolstoy we've all heard of.
:39:48. > :39:55.I am seized by an oppressive doubt. Where in this tale is the evil that
:39:56. > :39:59.should be avoided and where is the good that should be imitated? Who is
:40:00. > :40:06.the villain and who is the story of the late hero of the story -- the
:40:07. > :40:10.hero of the story? All are good and all are bad.
:40:11. > :40:13.we've all heard of. But the woman who shared his life
:40:14. > :40:15.and bore him 13 children, Sophia Tolstoy, is now to have her own
:40:16. > :40:27.work in print. Her own work Has been sitting in dusty Russian
:40:28. > :40:30.archives for over a century. How many other writers have been lost in
:40:31. > :40:40.time in the Shadow of their other halves? If Tolstoy's wife was one of
:40:41. > :40:45.them, who else has been a completely forgotten other half? I wouldn't say
:40:46. > :40:48.completely forgotten, because we are starting to resurrect the
:40:49. > :40:54.reputations of a lot of people, including the wife of the composer
:40:55. > :41:00.Schumann. We also think of a number of people who are in the public eye,
:41:01. > :41:05.who have always been in the public eye, part of the canon of British
:41:06. > :41:09.literature, for example, so Mary Shelley, married to Percy Shelley.
:41:10. > :41:15.The Brownings. They weren't always hiding behind the male Shadow. But
:41:16. > :41:21.if they were people we have sort of heard of, are there still great
:41:22. > :41:24.artists and writers who are somehow being completely hidden or
:41:25. > :41:31.overshadowed by their more famous other halves? Absolutely, it goes
:41:32. > :41:35.without saying but I think there are a lot of artists and writers and
:41:36. > :41:39.historical figures who were men who we are not looking at because we are
:41:40. > :41:44.so obsessed with icons, and so obsessed with re-examining the light
:41:45. > :41:50.of the same people over and over again. Annie, you are a painter, why
:41:51. > :41:52.do you think this happens? Is it possible sometimes in a relationship
:41:53. > :41:56.where there is somebody who we might call a genius or a great talent,
:41:57. > :42:06.there is just not room for anybody else? I think there is a real
:42:07. > :42:09.tradition of believing that creative genius is a specifically male thing
:42:10. > :42:15.and the woman's role is very much the Muse, the supporter. But
:42:16. > :42:19.actually, in history, if you look back, write to the 16th century,
:42:20. > :42:24.there were very successful female artists, who in that they were
:42:25. > :42:32.hugely famous and celebrated, and, in fact, more famous than a lot of
:42:33. > :42:35.the men. But I think the way history has been recorded, unfortunately,
:42:36. > :42:40.there just has not been the interest in them since their death and like
:42:41. > :42:46.Hallie said, there is the institutional reinforcement of the
:42:47. > :42:49.idea, with us constantly seeing exhibitions of Impressionists, but
:42:50. > :42:52.they don't include the women impressionists, to the point where
:42:53. > :42:56.you read about them and can't believe you don't know about them,
:42:57. > :43:01.because you have seen so many exhibitions. In terms of artistic
:43:02. > :43:05.talent, is that anything beyond what we would normally experience because
:43:06. > :43:09.of the vagaries of history? Whether in politics, science or other
:43:10. > :43:13.fields? Because men had public roles while women largely didn't, they
:43:14. > :43:24.were largely hidden. Is it different in art, even today? I think there
:43:25. > :43:27.are lots of couples today that, interestingly, if you look at the
:43:28. > :43:34.women, you still get this kind of accusation that the woman is somehow
:43:35. > :43:41.feeding off the fame of the other half, but interestingly, if you look
:43:42. > :43:45.at male couples, for example Jasper Johns and Rauschenberg, they are
:43:46. > :43:51.both seen as successful artists, or Gilbert and George, so that is an
:43:52. > :43:57.interesting difference. Hallie, do the less famous other halves, do
:43:58. > :44:01.they deserve to get discovered or is it easy to blame their lack of
:44:02. > :44:06.success on their gigantically famous spouse? I think sometimes they do
:44:07. > :44:09.and there are a number of people who are overshadowed who we don't know
:44:10. > :44:14.about. We know about Richard Brinsley Sheridan, who was a famous
:44:15. > :44:20.playwright and MP, but we don't know about Lindy, who was a fantastic
:44:21. > :44:25.soprano, who was his wife, who he did not want to perform after she
:44:26. > :44:30.married him. He sabotaged her career? He did. There was an artist,
:44:31. > :44:36.and impressionist woman, whose husband sabotaged her career, not
:44:37. > :44:41.because he did not want her to be an artist but because he was
:44:42. > :44:44.anti-Impressionism. So from a point of principle rather than envy or
:44:45. > :44:45.wanting her to disappear. Do you think it still happens now, this
:44:46. > :44:54.kind of challenge? think it still happens now, this
:44:55. > :44:58.now. I doubt many women would put up with it. The women I
:44:59. > :45:00.now. I doubt many women would put up artists who go out
:45:01. > :45:02.now. I doubt many women would put up artists, I can't imagine any of them
:45:03. > :45:09.putting up with this kind of sabotaged. I think it is a very
:45:10. > :45:14.different situation now. I think you are absolutely right, women wouldn't
:45:15. > :45:19.put up with it necessarily but in the past, women were expected to
:45:20. > :45:26.take a back-seat. They were expected to help their shine. Even somebody
:45:27. > :45:32.like Schumann, she supported her husband had made sure his work
:45:33. > :45:34.like Schumann, she supported her recognised, playing it in concerts.
:45:35. > :45:38.Sophia Tolstoy was an odd champion of her husband's work. Maybe it is
:45:39. > :45:43.not always about being the Muse, we must leave it there. That is almost
:45:44. > :45:47.it for tonight, but I hope you are ready for this. We leave you with a
:45:48. > :45:49.tribute to the man regarded by many as the father of modern yoga.
:45:50. > :45:51.work in print. Her own work B.K.S. Iyengar has died at the age
:45:52. > :45:59.of 95. He practised yoga for eight decades
:46:00. > :46:03.and could still do a head stand for more than half an hour until just
:46:04. > :46:06.last year. Here he is in more supple form back in 1977, at a sprightly 59
:46:07. > :46:09.years old. Good night.