:00:12. > :00:20.Welcome to Newsnight, live on stage at the Edinburgh Festival.
:00:21. > :00:23.Four weeks today, Scotland votes to stay in the Union or to go it alone.
:00:24. > :00:27.Tonight, with a stellar cast of performers, writers, and thinkers
:00:28. > :00:30.from both sides of the border, including the actor Simon Callow,
:00:31. > :00:34.Rory Bremner, Val McDiermed, Linda Colley and Scotland's most eminent
:00:35. > :00:53.All that, and stand by for the newest
:00:54. > :00:56.and shortest lived TV talent show - the snappily titled, Newsnight
:00:57. > :01:11.It's not independence you are talking about. You are talking about
:01:12. > :01:16.divorce. Divorce is expensive, especially with England, she is
:01:17. > :01:46.going to bleed you dry. # To be ourselves again... #
:01:47. > :01:54.All hail our resident house band, Federation of the Disco Pimp.
:01:55. > :02:14.It's a wonderful coincidence that the
:02:15. > :02:16.referendum on Scottish independence is happening just weeks after this
:02:17. > :02:20.Where better to take the temperature of the Union than the Athens
:02:21. > :02:24.As the independence debate rages in town halls and villages all
:02:25. > :02:26.across Scotland, Edinburgh is jam packed with writers, performers,
:02:27. > :02:29.thinkers and clowns - many talking about the vote and what
:02:30. > :02:35.A festival city with a fringe on top.
:02:36. > :02:38.But is it growing out of hand, as some of the critics maintain?
:02:39. > :02:45.Well, this year, Alec, we have 39, which is quite a record number.
:02:46. > :02:51.Now there are more than 3,000 in the organised chaos of Edinburgh
:02:52. > :02:57.Cultural and political conversations about the referendum are happening
:02:58. > :03:02.all over the capital, on stage and on the streets.
:03:03. > :03:05.I get asked for my opinion all the time, which of course I don't give.
:03:06. > :03:08.You don't have to be on the television to get asked
:03:09. > :03:12.When you talk to the visitors, what are they asking you about?
:03:13. > :03:15.Well, they can't believe that we're not independent in the first place.
:03:16. > :03:21.This campaign is all hinged on one stupid two letter word "if."
:03:22. > :03:39.Shouldn't you be campaigning for a No vote?
:03:40. > :03:42.Even Westminster politicians can't contain themselves.
:03:43. > :03:48.This is the most important decision we will ever take.
:03:49. > :03:51.Nothing we've ever decided on before has been of this magnitude.
:03:52. > :04:04.If this is seeming just a bit male,
:04:05. > :04:08.one lunchtime referendum show was all about women and the Yes vote.
:04:09. > :04:09.Initially, we met women on doorsteps who said.
:04:10. > :04:17.We've now moved on from that so much, in terms of people feeling,
:04:18. > :04:19.women feeling, that there's absolutely a point in voting.
:04:20. > :04:24.This is a different type of question that we're being asked.
:04:25. > :04:28.But are women, who are potential Yes voters, being turned off by one man?
:04:29. > :04:31.It's a danger recognised by Alex Salmond,
:04:32. > :04:36.who has now said he will be willing to disappear from the picture
:04:37. > :04:42.Another well-known face is trying his hand at stand-up.
:04:43. > :04:46.Unsurprisingly, he delivers a volley of infective about the referendum,
:04:47. > :04:55.But off stage, he just can't help himself.
:04:56. > :04:57.If Scotland's independent will you still go fishing in Scotland?
:04:58. > :05:02.I fully expect that once there are watchtowers along the River Tweed,
:05:03. > :05:05.as I fully expect there will be in the event of Scottish independence,
:05:06. > :05:09.that one will merely flash one's passport and proceed on one's way.
:05:10. > :05:12.There's a galaxy of voices at the Festival,
:05:13. > :05:18.but when the last actor packs up on the Royal Mile the whole of
:05:19. > :05:33.Scotland will still get to play its part in the drama of the century.
:05:34. > :05:37.Joining us, the comedian, Rory Bremner, the actor, Simon Callow,
:05:38. > :05:47.and the writer, Val McDermid - all appearing at the Festival this year.
:05:48. > :06:00.CHEERING AND APPLAUSE First of all, Rory. Great house band. Great house
:06:01. > :06:09.band, Disco Pimps. You can't say the name or that happens. Paxman did had
:06:10. > :06:13.that. Are you managing to get a whole lot of humour out of the
:06:14. > :06:16.referendum at the Festival? Yes it is. The atmosphere is Fred
:06:17. > :06:19.tremendous. The independence thing was going, I was in Edinburgh this
:06:20. > :06:23.year. A woman said, this is something I've waited for all my
:06:24. > :06:28.life. Hundreds of years we have been waiting for this. She was talking
:06:29. > :06:35.about the tram system. The pandas, have got in. She is pregnant. I had
:06:36. > :06:41.it down as an undecided. Last year she was, no, thanks. This year she
:06:42. > :06:52.is yes. This is something the SNP is doing. He will need to impregnate
:06:53. > :07:01.every voter. He promised to withdraw?
:07:02. > :07:08.Lower the tone. He thought he was harming the debate? I can't follow
:07:09. > :07:12.that! Do your own jokes, Kirsty. You have come back to Scotland from a
:07:13. > :07:18.time away. Living in Edinburgh again. You have recently come out as
:07:19. > :07:21.a Yes supporter. So have you been enjoying the Festival from a
:07:22. > :07:29.different perspective now having made that decision? I feel relaxed
:07:30. > :07:33.having made the decision. I spent a long time in, this week I think
:07:34. > :07:39.this, this week I think this. I have made a decision and feel comfortable
:07:40. > :07:45.there. Everywhere you go for it the Festival, or this country, it crops
:07:46. > :07:50.up in every show, every comedy routine. What made up your mind,
:07:51. > :07:54.comedy, politics, what was it? The fact the politics couldn't give us
:07:55. > :07:58.any straight answers. Every time you spoke to a politician you got a
:07:59. > :08:01.different answer. I thought about the way that the real world works.
:08:02. > :08:05.When you come to the end of a relationship, when you want
:08:06. > :08:07.different things, when your aspirations point in different
:08:08. > :08:13.directions, you don't stay together because you are worried who will get
:08:14. > :08:16.what when you split the CD collection. You make the decision
:08:17. > :08:20.and make the arrangements afterwards. I look at what the
:08:21. > :08:24.sporment has done since we had the Scottish Parliament. The decisions
:08:25. > :08:27.they made about education, health and social care were in tune with
:08:28. > :08:34.how I felt about the world, much more so than what happens at
:08:35. > :08:37.Westminster. Not only you your son is enjoining the Fringe and talking
:08:38. > :08:41.about the referendum Yes. He lives in England most of the time. He has
:08:42. > :08:45.been having a great time at all the comedy. Especially those with
:08:46. > :08:49.swearing. Simon Callow you are a veteran of the Edinburgh Festival,
:08:50. > :08:54.how do you feel this year? What do you feel about the atmosphere around
:08:55. > :09:01.the referendum stuff. It's in stand-up and Dedicoat indicated
:09:02. > :09:05.plays as well? ? It is. It's all encompassing it goes beyond and
:09:06. > :09:08.above that. A lot of people here don't know anything about it at all
:09:09. > :09:12.or think much about it at all. They are here to do a show or see lots of
:09:13. > :09:19.shows. The show that I'm doing has absolutely nothing to do with modern
:09:20. > :09:27.Britain or Scotland, apparently. It's 2,000 years old. The There is
:09:28. > :09:35.something informing the air at the moment. I feel melancholy to adapt
:09:36. > :09:38.the image that I was given, I feel like a child one of whose parents
:09:39. > :09:43.wants to divorce and the other doesn't. There is a kind of
:09:44. > :09:47.tremendous longing for it somehow to stay together on my part. Is that
:09:48. > :09:52.why you are a signature to the letter from lots of thespians and
:09:53. > :09:58.writers saying - please don't go? Absolutely. In my first job as a an
:09:59. > :10:02.Octoberor was in this city, in the Assembly Hall, where I'm playing
:10:03. > :10:08.now, 40 years ago. I worked here for many years in all sorts of mediums.
:10:09. > :10:12.Scotland, particularly perhaps Edinburgh, feel absolutely part of
:10:13. > :10:20.me. I feel part of it. I feel that if we were to break up, I would be
:10:21. > :10:23.immensely diminished by it. It's totally polarising isn't it, unlike
:10:24. > :10:26.the don't knows. A general election all over the country we have
:10:27. > :10:31.different choices. Do you think celebrities should be involved in
:10:32. > :10:43.this? Do you think comedians have a good role in this?
:10:44. > :10:50.thing. Better together, she sells bras, so it is a interest -- it is
:10:51. > :10:52.in her interest. I think there is a space, and comedy provides it.
:10:53. > :11:07.Andrew Maxwell, brilliant comedian, he did a wonderful show... Oh, we
:11:08. > :11:10.are under attack. And if you are wondering, and watching this in
:11:11. > :11:26.Gaza. People ask about getting into
:11:27. > :11:30.something less controversial like wind farms. When I started doing
:11:31. > :11:39.jokes last year, I was doing a documentary. I was doing something
:11:40. > :11:42.about this 360 degrees view and she was saying, one day, all of this
:11:43. > :11:48.will be mine, and the next thing, it sounds like you go on the SNP
:11:49. > :11:53.website and you get that. I voted for Alex Salmond, people say, don't
:11:54. > :11:56.insult me. You don't get in -- get any of that. It's important
:11:57. > :12:04.politicians should be part of laughter. The worry is that part of
:12:05. > :12:08.the Yes campaign does lack the humour. I think it is important we
:12:09. > :12:14.put the humour back in. Politicians should be held to account by comedy
:12:15. > :12:21.and political means. I did not fight in two world wars... Well, I didn't
:12:22. > :12:24.fight in two world wars. But my father did, and if Alex Salmond or
:12:25. > :12:30.Alistair Darling have only got one ball, and the other is in the Usher
:12:31. > :12:34.Hall, we should be allowed to sing about it. It's an important part of
:12:35. > :12:39.democracy and we should not allow this to be a humour free zone. I
:12:40. > :12:45.know this is heartbreaking for you, Rory, the referendum is about the
:12:46. > :12:48.politicians. It's not Alex Salmond's referendum, or Alistair
:12:49. > :12:53.Darling's, it is our referendum. We are the ones who make the decision.
:12:54. > :12:58.Whatever happens, we have to rethink the future. Whatever happens on
:12:59. > :13:00.September the 18th, there will be a realignment in Scottish politics
:13:01. > :13:07.because people have been energised and people who have been in gauged
:13:08. > :13:11.are not -- who have been engaged art doing so in a way they never have
:13:12. > :13:17.been before. Was it that England should have become more engaged in
:13:18. > :13:22.the conversation? Should they have been more engaged? I think so. Most
:13:23. > :13:26.English people think it is unthinkable. There is a general
:13:27. > :13:32.feeling it won't happen. If it does happen, we are a different nation
:13:33. > :13:34.than them. We, the English, are a different nation, and the British
:13:35. > :13:40.will be different. We are both diminished, in my view, but that's
:13:41. > :13:43.another story. I'm sorry it has come to this. I wanted to see the
:13:44. > :13:47.Scottish parliament given more powers. I was born and raised in
:13:48. > :13:52.Edinburgh and I am a patriotic Scot and I have a house in Scotland. And
:13:53. > :14:00.you have a boat. Absolutely. -- afloat. You have to choose between
:14:01. > :14:05.head and heart, and the arguments are not finally cut. IU leaning in
:14:06. > :14:10.one direction or another? My life has been about having the best of
:14:11. > :14:14.both worlds. My Channel four series is filmed in London and a lot of
:14:15. > :14:18.work I do, but I feel at home in Scotland, so where does it put me?
:14:19. > :14:28.On the final question of how comedy and drama and all of this informs
:14:29. > :14:31.political debate, is the drama to agitprop rather than giving you a
:14:32. > :14:37.choice question one of the comedians did half of the show as yes and half
:14:38. > :14:40.as no, and drama doesn't do that. Some drama has made its mind up
:14:41. > :14:43.before you walk into the theatre but there is a lot of stuff that hasn't
:14:44. > :14:47.because people haven't made their minds up and a lot of people still
:14:48. > :14:49.don't want to think about this. One of the reasons there has been a
:14:50. > :14:55.renaissance in Scottish literature over the last 20 or 25 years has
:14:56. > :14:59.been because we are talking about ourselves, to ourselves. How do we
:15:00. > :15:02.see ourselves question mark this is a discussion the country has had a
:15:03. > :15:08.lot longer than the last few month -- how do see ourselves?
:15:09. > :15:21.Thank you very much for that. For now, everyone, Val, Simon and Rory.
:15:22. > :15:23.What is Scotland in the 21st century?
:15:24. > :15:25.One of the big drivers towards independence has been
:15:26. > :15:27.a growing cultural confidence, and a desire to express that through
:15:28. > :15:33.But the roots of that sense of difference from Scotland's
:15:34. > :15:58.bigger neighbour go back a long, long, way, as Allan Little reports.
:15:59. > :16:04.What is Scottish national identity, and how did it break out of it
:16:05. > :16:10.kilted straitjacket to be shaped by the times we live in now? The old
:16:11. > :16:15.stereotype was born here, at Abbotsford, the country home of Sir
:16:16. > :16:20.Walter Scott. He summoned this Scotland from his imagination,
:16:21. > :16:25.romantic, exotic Scotland for English consumption, no longer
:16:26. > :16:29.savage, wild and lawless. Scott was very clear when he wrote his first
:16:30. > :16:33.novel, Waverley, that what he was doing was introducing Scottish
:16:34. > :16:37.readers to their own history and English readers to Scottish history.
:16:38. > :16:42.There is something fake about it though, isn't there? There is
:16:43. > :16:48.something fictitious, not fake, but fictitious. Even being here, under
:16:49. > :16:54.this wonderful roof that looks like a wooden chapel, it isn't, it is
:16:55. > :16:59.papier-mache. The whole place is a theatrical set. But there is
:17:00. > :17:02.something good about that. The idea that our identity is not something
:17:03. > :17:07.fixed, but something changeable. We know that national identities are
:17:08. > :17:13.constructs. The problem is, who is brave enough now to create new
:17:14. > :17:18.constructs? Victorian Britain loved this manufactured Scotland and
:17:19. > :17:33.bought it wholesale. This Scotland sat comfortably in the prospering
:17:34. > :17:38.British union. # Donald, where's your trousers? But so many people
:17:39. > :17:41.wondered why there was this representation of Scottish nurse on
:17:42. > :17:47.its TV screens. It did not know anyone who did this kind of thing --
:17:48. > :17:50.Scottish nurse. When you look at the way that Scottish national identity
:17:51. > :17:54.is expressed, especially by the popular performing arts, what did it
:17:55. > :18:01.look like question mark kilts, haggis, the White Heather club. --
:18:02. > :18:05.what did it look like? As a young person growing up in Scotland it did
:18:06. > :18:15.not relate to me. I did not look out and see anybody that reflected me at
:18:16. > :18:19.all. That sense of what Scotland was was carried around the world by the
:18:20. > :18:24.British Empire, the canny Scot and the dour Scot, landing on every
:18:25. > :18:29.shore. They dressed in tartan and toasted Robert Burns every January
:18:30. > :18:33.and sang sweet, sentimental memories about longing, loss and regret. For
:18:34. > :18:38.a Scotland that did not really exist. A Scotland that was a
:18:39. > :18:41.romantic, imagined constructs. That Scotland was safe, tame and knew its
:18:42. > :18:46.place in the greater scheme of things. It had a rebellious past
:18:47. > :18:52.that could be saluted and celebrated as long as that rebelliousness sake
:18:53. > :18:56.-- stayed safely in the past. And that Scotland survived into our own
:18:57. > :19:00.time. Think of Private Fraser in dad 's Army. What is a canny Scot
:19:01. > :19:07.anyway? And can an Englishman ever be canny? One Saturday night, at the
:19:08. > :19:13.age of 15 or something, onto the television came a version of, and I
:19:14. > :19:22.didn't go to the theatre, the John McGraw play. Prepare the people to
:19:23. > :19:26.make way for the sheep. It drew a direct line between the Highland
:19:27. > :19:30.clearances of the 19th century and the sudden, catastrophic decline of
:19:31. > :19:35.heavy industry. This was a powerful new voice in Scottish culture. And
:19:36. > :19:40.it changed my life, really. I had never seen my own culture and my own
:19:41. > :19:47.country reflected back to me in the wake that it did. There was a
:19:48. > :19:52.re-claiming of who we were Ulster the cheesy it was an angry plate --
:19:53. > :20:00.of who we were. The Cheviot was an angry play. 70% of the population
:20:01. > :20:03.owned 84% of the wealth. Scottish national identity began to wrap
:20:04. > :20:08.itself in the cause of social justice. In the idea of resistance
:20:09. > :20:20.to unaccountable wealth and power, imposing its will from outside. This
:20:21. > :20:24.Scotland was also irreverent, self mocking and hilariously funny. Billy
:20:25. > :20:28.Connelly, who had been a Glasgow shipyard welder, spoke for a
:20:29. > :20:35.Scotland that now began to eclipse the old stereotype. That is the
:20:36. > :20:39.white heather image,, I hope so. What is it you object to? The
:20:40. > :20:45.English view that we have of the Scottish? The kilt on the sporran.
:20:46. > :20:52.It is completely false, the wee cottage in the Highlands, the purple
:20:53. > :20:55.Heather, it's not on. The guys who sing it, they live in the West End
:20:56. > :20:59.of Glasgow. They don't know what they are singing. A wee cottage in
:21:00. > :21:11.the Highland will cost to about 40 grand. It is not really on any more.
:21:12. > :21:16.This was the Scotland that emerged to replace the White Heather club
:21:17. > :21:22.and the Green Hills of Tyree. This Scotland was urban and it spoke in a
:21:23. > :21:26.voice and with the wit and wisdom of the cities, of Glasgow in
:21:27. > :21:31.particular. It was dismayed by what was happening and felt dispossessed,
:21:32. > :21:34.abandoned by Britain as the industries that once serviced the
:21:35. > :21:39.empires collapsed. This Scotland was angrier, less tame, less docile,
:21:40. > :21:44.less reconciled to its place in the greater British scheme of things.
:21:45. > :21:55.This Scotland felt much, much less British. Country, Scotland. It is a
:21:56. > :22:02.peat bog, it is a dark forest. It is a cauldron at the base of a coal
:22:03. > :22:09.mine. If you are lucky, it is a bonny medal. Liz Lochhead is the
:22:10. > :22:13.national poet of Scotland, and one of the country's most celebrated
:22:14. > :22:19.artists. In the 1980s she began to write in Scots as well as English.
:22:20. > :22:23.Scottish kids had always been punished for using Scots idioms and
:22:24. > :22:28.locutions in school. Standard English was bumped into you. But by
:22:29. > :22:34.the 1980s, publishers wanted literature to reflect the demotic
:22:35. > :22:38.speech of ordinary folk. They realised there was a market for
:22:39. > :22:42.things that talk about ourselves in our own terms, and with the first
:22:43. > :22:47.failed referendum, there really was a sense of depression, which then
:22:48. > :22:51.expressed itself in a sense of let's get on with it and a revival of
:22:52. > :23:02.Scottish identity. In the visual arts as well, you
:23:03. > :23:06.sensed a gradual decoupling. Ross Sinclair is one group of young
:23:07. > :23:11.artists who emerged from the Glasgow School of Art in the 1980s. In this
:23:12. > :23:15.installation, installation, he, like Walter Scott, addresses the
:23:16. > :23:20.manufactured nature of national identity. From the fake grass to the
:23:21. > :23:23.fake rocks and fake waterfalls. But he says, for his generation of
:23:24. > :23:30.artists, Scotland's access to the wider world no longer lies through
:23:31. > :23:33.London alone. London still has its straw and it is still fantastic. I
:23:34. > :23:37.show down there now and then, and it's great, but there are all kinds
:23:38. > :23:44.of other relationships with Europe, Berlin, Scandinavia, the US, China,
:23:45. > :23:48.Africa, wherever. I'm just thinking of projects that are going at the
:23:49. > :23:52.moment. These are the kind of relationships that are not based on
:23:53. > :23:55.some historical premise that has this sort of built-in power
:23:56. > :24:01.relationship. These are kind of new, fresh relationships. Horizontal,
:24:02. > :24:14.organic things. A feeling that anything can happen. Walter Scott
:24:15. > :24:19.conjured a Scottish identity that could fit in a wider British
:24:20. > :24:20.context. Scotland's artists had been pushing at the boundaries for 40
:24:21. > :24:30.years. Rory Bremner is still with us - he's
:24:31. > :24:34.leaning towards a 'no' vote. We're also joined by the writer Damian
:24:35. > :24:37.Barr, who is firmly in the no camp, the actor and writer David Hayman
:24:38. > :24:40.and the historian Sir Tom Devine - Last but not least, Linda Colley -
:24:41. > :24:44.who doesn't have a horse in the race but is perhaps the
:24:45. > :25:05.greatest historian of the Union. play, which you appear in, which
:25:06. > :25:10.talks about Scottish independence. How much is your decision about
:25:11. > :25:14.identity, heart over head, as about anything else? It's very simple,
:25:15. > :25:19.it's not necessarily about identity. I want to live in a better country.
:25:20. > :25:24.A country that's a small, progressive, European, peace loving
:25:25. > :25:28.country with social justice and democracy and, at its heart. Whether
:25:29. > :25:31.I would be Scottish or English Orwell shall it wouldn't make a
:25:32. > :25:35.difference to me. I think we have to improve the quality of life for all
:25:36. > :25:38.of us. I think our values are getting warped around the world. I
:25:39. > :25:42.think we have a wonderful opportunity, we are a separate
:25:43. > :25:46.nation, to be able to create a new paradigm for how we all live
:25:47. > :25:52.together. Damian Barr can you put the same passion into the argument
:25:53. > :25:55.for Union? Nobody wants a small, toxic back word looking country
:25:56. > :26:00.which isn't progressing in the world. I want the same things. I
:26:01. > :26:03.disagree about how we achieve them. I think the best way is to stay in
:26:04. > :26:07.the Union. I'm a citizen of Scotland, I'm not resident in
:26:08. > :26:11.Scotland. My vote has been taken away. The I'm one of the nearly
:26:12. > :26:16.800,000 people who were born here not allowed to have a say in the
:26:17. > :26:21.future. That makes me incredibly angry. Do you think the decision
:26:22. > :26:25.would be influenced heavily by those outside the country It's great the
:26:26. > :26:29.country is talking about it, it affects the whole country. It's
:26:30. > :26:33.great tonight I get in the cab over here it's the first thing that comes
:26:34. > :26:37.up. It's exciting. I don't think we need to break the Union up to do new
:26:38. > :26:41.things in Scotland. The Government has many powers it doesn't use. The
:26:42. > :26:47.Scottish Government could raise incomes tax by 3p and spend it on
:26:48. > :26:51.the arts and NHS, they haven't done it. Why do they want more powers?
:26:52. > :26:55.You nailed your colours to the mass, saying you were going to vote Yes,
:26:56. > :27:00.what was that journey? Is what were the points on that journey?
:27:01. > :27:05.Reflection. Thinking about where we are, in terms of my own profession,
:27:06. > :27:11.that is history. It is seeing where Scotland is likely to go. Seeing
:27:12. > :27:16.what I think is the quite massive decline in the Union connection.
:27:17. > :27:21.Also, seeing the potential. Also, particularly, I think, we're now a
:27:22. > :27:27.mature nation. We are now a mature nation, in terms of identity, as has
:27:28. > :27:32.already been said this evening. We're also got, I think, a much more
:27:33. > :27:36.resilient economic system. It's not necessarily the best in the world.
:27:37. > :27:42.It's certainly resilient in terms of what it used to be as late as the
:27:43. > :27:46.1970s, 19'80s. The other important thing is, if you have an entity like
:27:47. > :27:53.that, a collective sentiment, that as a nation, you are still
:27:54. > :27:55.independent, as we are, because the Scottish Parliament, despite the
:27:56. > :28:00.number of very good things it has done, is actually still dependant on
:28:01. > :28:05.a block grant from the other country. The final thing I would say
:28:06. > :28:10.is, the difference... I mean, both countries, England and Scotland,
:28:11. > :28:15.have got similar, almost identical social problems of inequality and
:28:16. > :28:20.the rest. But there are developing different political cultures and
:28:21. > :28:27.voting patterns between England and Scotland which, in my view, cannot
:28:28. > :28:32.really be dealt with exception an amicable release between the two
:28:33. > :28:37.countries. Linda Colley, are the historian of the Union, do you see
:28:38. > :28:47.that conjectory differently Well, I do. I mean, you can... Nationalism
:28:48. > :28:52.tends to create an other against which it can define itself. The so,
:28:53. > :28:56.it's tempting to say - oh, England is different. English politics are
:28:57. > :29:00.different. Identity is different? Identity is different. But, you
:29:01. > :29:04.know, English politics aren't always different you look at voting
:29:05. > :29:10.patterns in the north-east of England. There is hardly any
:29:11. > :29:15.Conservatives there. And, I think most countries, like most human
:29:16. > :29:23.beings, contain multiple identities. I think that's very healthy. I think
:29:24. > :29:28.one of the challenges of periods of political excitement is there is a
:29:29. > :29:36.temptation to overstreamline identity. The I think we need to
:29:37. > :29:40.keep it multivarious. Far too binary - I think Scotland retains that
:29:41. > :29:42.number of identities from the local to the Scottish to the
:29:43. > :29:46.international. What is the sensibility that is different?
:29:47. > :29:51.Actually, I would welcome the north of England joining us.
:29:52. > :29:55.APPLAUSE Because, this is an issue, you know,
:29:56. > :30:01.quite seriously, ladies and gentlemen, between the southern of
:30:02. > :30:04.England, particularly south of the Severn Trent line, the Metro Poland
:30:05. > :30:10.some parts of the south-east, the area you know well, Kirsty, from
:30:11. > :30:14.your travels. That is the essential difficult recipesal. Let me talk to
:30:15. > :30:17.Rory. You know the area well. This is your territory? I think there is
:30:18. > :30:20.a problem at Westminster. There is a problem with England. I would be in
:30:21. > :30:24.favour of seeing a more Federal United Kingdom. There is, that is a
:30:25. > :30:28.problem. I don't necessarily, as I have been thinking about this, think
:30:29. > :30:31.Scotland splitting up from the rest of the United Kingdom is the answer
:30:32. > :30:35.to that question. Yesterday, for example, the headline in the
:30:36. > :30:40.newspaper was a poll amongst English people, the English were polled
:30:41. > :30:46.asked about it. If Scotland vote for independence we wouldn't them to
:30:47. > :30:49.keep the pound. If they don't vote for independence we want their
:30:50. > :30:53.public spending cut. You are setting a nation against itself. Alex
:30:54. > :30:57.Salmond might say - this is the sovereign will of the Scottish
:30:58. > :31:03.people. English people will say, sod you then. Damian Barr, do you see
:31:04. > :31:05.this discussion, in a way, as being corrosive of the relationship, no
:31:06. > :31:10.matter what happens? Absolute slid. It's hard to find positive things
:31:11. > :31:14.about it at this stage. So many of the English people I know living in
:31:15. > :31:18.Brighton people are like - don't go. Don't leave us. Clutching at you as
:31:19. > :31:22.you walk out the door. The more radical thing to, do the braver
:31:23. > :31:27.thing to do, is to stay and actually be radical within the Union. Let's
:31:28. > :31:32.not forget Scotland can be a force for good for the other constituent
:31:33. > :31:38.countries in the Union help affect change. It's not all about us. David
:31:39. > :31:41.Hayman About 10 years ago, John Prescott was Deputy Leader of the
:31:42. > :31:47.Labour Party. He offered the north-east of England atomorrow
:31:48. > :31:51.mouse power, devolved power, it was unanimously rejected. I spent the
:31:52. > :31:55.last two summers doing a TV series in Newcastle. They have changed
:31:56. > :31:59.their minds. If that offer was on the table today they would accept it
:32:00. > :32:03.and say yes. That backs up Tom's argument, let us devolve everything
:32:04. > :32:09.away from London. It's like a great suction. Just sucking wealth and
:32:10. > :32:14.talent and people. The That is an argument for devolution rather than
:32:15. > :32:19.for independence. Tom, you are a historian, Scottish identity were
:32:20. > :32:23.during the enlightenment with Adam Smith. David human. That was under
:32:24. > :32:27.the Union. That is the thing... I don't want to have to make this
:32:28. > :32:32.decision. This is the thing. I have been wrestling with it all along.
:32:33. > :32:37.Linda? Yeah. One of the many mistakes David Cameron has made was
:32:38. > :32:41.not to include devo max as an option.
:32:42. > :32:47.APPLAUSE Because one of the repercussions has
:32:48. > :32:51.been to polarise. The reason why I'm part Welsh, part Irish, part
:32:52. > :32:54.English, I'm not a Scot, I don't have a vote this September, but I'd
:32:55. > :32:59.actually find it difficult to know which way to go because I don't want
:33:00. > :33:05.the status quo. I don't want Scottish succession. What I'd like
:33:06. > :33:11.is devo max in this country as an integral part of a constitutional
:33:12. > :33:17.reordering and reimagining of the UK. That is what you wanted at first
:33:18. > :33:23.Tom Devine, it wasn't there It's not simply Cameron. Come Ron, I agree
:33:24. > :33:28.with you, made a major error not allowing this. There were reasons
:33:29. > :33:32.why he made that error. In a sense also, Alex Salmond and the SNP may
:33:33. > :33:41.also have made an error because they didn't go for a gradualist approach
:33:42. > :33:47.to their potential goal. He may well regret that because I know, in the
:33:48. > :33:52.internal councils of the Scottish National Party there was discussion
:33:53. > :33:56.about first having a vote over Defoe max, which would have delivered a
:33:57. > :33:59.huge majority. Bedding it down in five years' time coming down and
:34:00. > :34:05.asking for the next one. A lot of people, if there is a no vote --
:34:06. > :34:11.devo, will say that was a bridge too far. A gamble too quickly. Better
:34:12. > :34:16.for a gradualist approach to take place. Back to Linda's point. If on
:34:17. > :34:20.that fateful morning in September we wake up and there is a No vote. I
:34:21. > :34:26.hope there is a maximum Yes vote as well. That will create the kind of
:34:27. > :34:31.scenario where you can then move into Federalist or devo max
:34:32. > :34:35.conversations. On that point, David Hayman, do you think the danger is,
:34:36. > :34:39.whatever way it goes, say it goes No, that the Yes campaigners have
:34:40. > :34:43.invested so much emotionally in it it will be a huge downer for you and
:34:44. > :34:49.it will be a real shuddering problem for people that wanted that, as in a
:34:50. > :34:54.way it was cultural in 1949? I don't it will be a shuddering problem.
:34:55. > :34:58.What has been exciting about the last two years, the levels of
:34:59. > :35:01.debate, the levels of debate have been extraordinary. People are
:35:02. > :35:05.engaging the politics in a profound way for the first time in their
:35:06. > :35:08.lives, young people, old people. It has been energising and exciting to
:35:09. > :35:11.hear all this. Wonderful progressive ideas have gone around. There is a
:35:12. > :35:16.force that has been unleashed. I don't think that force will go away.
:35:17. > :35:20.Even if it is a No vote and we are disappointed. I think we will come
:35:21. > :35:26.back to it. Whatever happens the Union has already changed. The Union
:35:27. > :35:32.has changed historically. The Union always has changed. This would be
:35:33. > :35:36.its most radical change. With have our own law. We have our own
:35:37. > :35:40.education system. We have our own church and language and weather, as
:35:41. > :35:44.we have all experienced this summer. I feel like - I can't really see
:35:45. > :35:49.what is to be gay gained I can see lots of what is to be lost. I feel
:35:50. > :35:56.we should be trying to finded common ground - There is a lot missing on
:35:57. > :36:04.your list that is sovereignty. The capacity to decide what is right -
:36:05. > :36:10.We have our own Parliament. Yes that Parliament is dependent for over 80%
:36:11. > :36:14.of its income from south of the border. You are sitting there
:36:15. > :36:20.listening to this. I wonder what you think, in a kind of way, whether
:36:21. > :36:25.Scotland. Is this a conjectory, the same way that devolution to this has
:36:26. > :36:32.been a conjectory, actually if there is a No vote would it be like
:36:33. > :36:35.(inaudible) referendum. Is it a conversation that will keep going.
:36:36. > :36:45.If there is a No vote the governance of the United Kingdom stays the
:36:46. > :36:49.same? I think some of this being a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity puts
:36:50. > :36:57.it to extensively. I think this is going to be a rolling debate. You
:36:58. > :37:01.know, there may be, if we get No this time, there may be pressure for
:37:02. > :37:09.another referendum 10 years on, 15 years on. We don't know. What I am
:37:10. > :37:16.concerned about, what does worry me, is that nationalism historically is
:37:17. > :37:25.a very volatile emotion. It's a very contagious emotion. One has to be
:37:26. > :37:29.careful that relationships in this large island, at the moment called
:37:30. > :37:35.Great Britain, we main as amicable as possible. I rather worry that
:37:36. > :37:41.that had may not remain the case. Do you think that, David? I have been
:37:42. > :37:47.amicable. If you remember, you don't know before the Commonwealth Games
:37:48. > :37:53.Team England were counselled how to deal with boos and jeers when they
:37:54. > :37:57.come to Scotland for". At Celtic Park 40,000 people gave them the
:37:58. > :38:02.most loving, warmest welcome. I was so proud of my fellow Scots. I think
:38:03. > :38:05.that is the level of love and respect we have for each other. I
:38:06. > :38:09.think that will always be there. Coming to the end of this part of
:38:10. > :38:15.the debate. I want to run round in an unscientific matter. How do you
:38:16. > :38:19.think it will go, Rory? Well, the polls would suggest - depends on how
:38:20. > :38:26.you look at the polls. They are suggesting about sort of 55-45 or
:38:27. > :38:37.something. The nationalists say the polls are narrowing. The Unionists
:38:38. > :38:43.say the polls are widening. Nigel Farage says, why ask the Poles, they
:38:44. > :38:48.don't live here! Thank you Rory Bremner for that.
:38:49. > :38:51.Newsnight was keen to flex its cultural muscle here
:38:52. > :38:55.So back in May we launched a contest to find the most brilliant
:38:56. > :38:57.artistic rendition of the Scottish independence debate.
:38:58. > :38:59.We received dozens of entries from musicians, stand-ups and performers.
:39:00. > :39:02.It fell to Steve Smith to separate the wheat from the chaff and,
:39:03. > :39:29.here in Edinburgh, with our peachy panel of judges, to pick a winner.
:39:30. > :39:34.spotting comedians and musicians willing to appear under the auspices
:39:35. > :39:43.of Newsnight. Nobody said it was going to be diesel. -- easel. Have
:39:44. > :39:47.they got something to say about the referendum? Something the rest of us
:39:48. > :39:53.might enjoy listening to? And by the way, are there any venues going
:39:54. > :39:59.begging to help you out with the 3000 shows. The Queen Dome of the
:40:00. > :40:08.famous pleasance. Let's do the show right here. Only the creme de la
:40:09. > :40:14.creme have made it to the home of variety, and now they get just one
:40:15. > :40:17.chance to impress the judges. The man who puts to rest into
:40:18. > :40:24.referendum, Arthur Smith, followed by the talented and popular
:40:25. > :40:26.stand-up, Janie Godley, and more intellectual Alistair Brom Hannah
:40:27. > :40:41.McGill. Your judges, ladies and gentlemen. -- more intellectual
:40:42. > :40:54.ballast. On the way, the show stoppers, more Gilbert and Sullivan
:40:55. > :40:56.meet the referendum. # we can't we leave that all behind with
:40:57. > :41:04.Bannockburn and foreign I thought it was absolutely lovely.
:41:05. > :41:09.If I ever want to hear three English people beg from me, I will have
:41:10. > :41:16.these three. For me, there were too many words. Thereau a huge number of
:41:17. > :41:21.words flying past. -- there are a huge number of words. With military
:41:22. > :41:28.precision the Edinburgh Tattoo, the stagehands set up for the next term.
:41:29. > :41:31.OK, Scotland, focus. This is your big moment. It's not independent you
:41:32. > :41:34.are talking about, you are talking about divorce. And divorce is
:41:35. > :41:38.expensive, especially with England, because she's going to bleed you
:41:39. > :41:43.dry. Because she has Wales to support, and Wales ain't never can
:41:44. > :41:48.get a job. And what's the cheapest way to get through any divorce? Have
:41:49. > :41:52.the second marriage lined up. I say, OK, independent Scotland, who in the
:41:53. > :41:57.neighbourhood will you get married to question the island, she's broke.
:41:58. > :42:03.Iceland, she's bankrupt, France, she's a slut. You're going to be
:42:04. > :42:08.looking at the next UN conference at the singles bar getting hit on by
:42:09. > :42:13.North Korea. Is it natural commentary territory? You made it
:42:14. > :42:17.seem so. -- comedy territory. In this country, yes, but the rest of
:42:18. > :42:22.the world has no idea where it is. Who is being sick to death about
:42:23. > :42:24.being asked about voting in the Scottish independence debate?
:42:25. > :42:31.Together at last, the Scottish referendum. How will you vote? And
:42:32. > :42:35.sock puppets. They are a bit like Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling.
:42:36. > :42:38.This is what I thought, too angry little creatures sniping at each
:42:39. > :42:44.other. Strangely familiar if you've watched the TV debate. And Hillary
:42:45. > :42:51.Fox brought her ukelele stylings to an affectionate parody of a classic
:42:52. > :42:57.song from the rock canon. # what about the oil? Do we get to keep the
:42:58. > :43:02.pound? Will you get your own defence Force and get it off the ground? #
:43:03. > :43:10.now is the time for making your mind up. # go one out and vote and make
:43:11. > :43:14.your mind up. She is absolutely right, we should be making our mind
:43:15. > :43:19.up, but like most Scottish people I will wait until the day and see how
:43:20. > :43:23.the weather is. You know that if you do well here, you might go on to the
:43:24. > :43:28.judges houses and you might go back to balance with Arthur. That is the
:43:29. > :43:33.best offer I have had today -- bal. I think they have been very good,
:43:34. > :43:37.and they've all had a go, as my mother would say. I am Scottish, so
:43:38. > :43:43.we will wait to see the whole picture and then we will make a
:43:44. > :43:45.decision. Yes, it's the Newsnight Edinburgh referendum review, and
:43:46. > :43:50.this might be the closest we get today to a boy band. The Walk
:43:51. > :43:54.Mischief. # An independent Scotland is a
:43:55. > :43:56.better Scotland # We've got Edinburgh castle and
:43:57. > :44:10.Stirling Castle # And Glasgow Castle and Elgin
:44:11. > :44:32.Interesting what lads can do. This is a salutary distillation of the
:44:33. > :44:37.important issues, the things they will take away in a big fan if we
:44:38. > :44:42.vote no. How important is it for you guys to win this talent show today?
:44:43. > :44:47.We all quit our jobs today to be here. So if we don't win, it would
:44:48. > :44:58.be quite catastrophic for us and our girlfriends. # the thorn is
:44:59. > :45:02.withdrawn. Is it? It is. The former BBC Moscow correspondent, Angus
:45:03. > :45:07.Roxburgh. They say in every battled reporter there is a song and dance
:45:08. > :45:19.man bursting to get out. # to be ourselves again. # to be ourselves
:45:20. > :45:22.again. # Be ourselves again. It's a lovely warm, kindly sentiment that
:45:23. > :45:25.we could do it without spittle rancour, but it's been proven that
:45:26. > :45:34.is not the case, but it's nice to hold out for. To be ourselves again,
:45:35. > :45:39.so, have you not been yourself? We don't feel ourselves at the moment.
:45:40. > :45:42.I've not been myself all day. If you don't vote in the UK, it's not that
:45:43. > :45:46.you don't care, you're just exhausted. Because you are voting
:45:47. > :45:49.all the time. You have X Factor, Big Brother, Britain's got talent. There
:45:50. > :45:53.is something called a by-election, which I think is a late night show
:45:54. > :45:58.on Channel five. I have followed all of these issues and American
:45:59. > :46:03.politics, because they are more exciting, because we have got guns.
:46:04. > :46:07.You stuck around all day for us, is it because it was raining or it
:46:08. > :46:10.meant the world to you? This is the big moment. Everybody knows that
:46:11. > :46:17.comedy on Newsnight is the best varies. , acerbic and he will
:46:18. > :46:24.probably come fourth or fifth. That is the first steer we have had of
:46:25. > :46:33.the judges thinking. # home is where the heart is. # That is where we
:46:34. > :46:36.belong. # Nothing can divide is. Were the referendum to be decided on
:46:37. > :46:40.vocal performance, you would be in with a shot. I thought it was a
:46:41. > :46:46.collection of cliches. Home is where the heart is. Perhaps you are
:46:47. > :46:53.judging too harshly. I've changed my mind. They were brilliant. I will
:46:54. > :46:58.put them first. That's what we want. What a journey our contestants have
:46:59. > :47:02.been on. Who can blame them for a few butterflies? Only one act can
:47:03. > :47:07.win a life changing live performance on Newsnight. It all rests on our
:47:08. > :47:15.unimpeachable judges. They are without fear or favour. Or a fee,
:47:16. > :47:17.very nearly. Coming third is a brilliant lady with the ukelele,
:47:18. > :47:27.give it up for Hillary Fox. For making us laugh heartily and
:47:28. > :47:29.insulting us gently and for dressing better than any of us, second prize
:47:30. > :47:43.is David Mills. The winner of the inaugural and
:47:44. > :47:46.final Newsnight referendum review is...
:47:47. > :48:05.Excuse me, everyone. Hello, boys. How do you feel? Absolutely
:48:06. > :48:11.phenomenal. It started out as for friends, and now we are free friends
:48:12. > :48:15.and someone else in the process. -- three friends.
:48:16. > :48:21.Thank you to all my guests and congratulations to the winners
:48:22. > :48:24.of Newsnight's Referendum Revue, here to play us out live.
:48:25. > :48:27.The Orc Mischief's Song may sound like a paean to independence, but
:48:28. > :48:31.# An independent Scotland is a better Scotland
:48:32. > :48:39.# An independent Scotland is a better Scotland
:48:40. > :48:48.# We've got Edinburgh castle and Stirling Castle
:48:49. > :48:55.# And Glasgow Castle and Elgin Castle
:48:56. > :49:29.# And Forth Road Bridges and Forth Rail Bridges
:49:30. > :49:51.# An independent Scotland is a better Scotland
:49:52. > :50:02.# An independent Scotland is a better Scotland
:50:03. > :50:27.Good evening. We are set to continue with a rather cool weather story
:50:28. > :50:31.through the next few days. Blame it all on the northerly or
:50:32. > :50:34.north-westerly breeze. That will be lighter across the British Isles on
:50:35. > :50:38.Friday than Thursday. There should be more in the way of sunshine and
:50:39. > :50:43.less in the way of showers. Those factors combined could bring us a
:50:44. > :50:46.warmer feeling day. That breeze will feel more showers in throughout the
:50:47. > :50:50.day to parts of Northern Ireland and the north of Scotland. Southern and
:50:51. > :50:54.central areas should see sunshine. Greater risk of showers across
:50:55. > :50:58.eastern England through Friday afternoon. Still plenty of sunshine
:50:59. > :51:01.around as well. Many areas will avoid the showers altogether.
:51:02. > :51:05.Temperatures in the south-east of England in one or two spots up to
:51:06. > :51:10.around 20 degrees Celsius. More typically, we are looking at highs
:51:11. > :51:14.in the mid to high teens. It is a couple of degrees down for this
:51:15. > :51:17.point in August. With the breeze becoming lighter still overnight
:51:18. > :51:22.Friday, into Saturday, we could be off to a pretty chilly start to the
:51:23. > :51:26.weekend. Again, with a few scattered showers around, we are not talking
:51:27. > :51:31.about a bad day all in all. A lot of sunshine. Temperatures in the best
:51:32. > :51:34.of any sunshine up to 17-18, maybe 19 degrees. Here is how Saturday
:51:35. > :51:38.looks. Showers possible across northern England, perhaps for East
:51:39. > :51:42.Anglia later in the day. Overall, a lot of fair weather. A slightly
:51:43. > :51:46.lighter breeze through the day. Temperatures in the mid to high
:51:47. > :51:48.teens. Look out for a chilly night Saturday night into Sunday.
:51:49. > :51:50.Make the most of your bank holiday, wherever you are.
:51:51. > :51:55.Use the BBC Weather app to stay one step ahead of the weather.