:00:08. > :00:15.Jihadists in Iraq behead a second American journalist. Last week
:00:16. > :00:18.President Obama said he didn'ted yet have a strategy for dealing with
:00:19. > :00:24.Islamic State, will this now concentrate his mind. The Islamic
:00:25. > :00:28.State made Sotloff deliver a message to President Obama direct into the
:00:29. > :00:30.camera before murdering him. But a stronger American or British
:00:31. > :00:36.military response may be just what they are trying to provoke. Here in
:00:37. > :00:39.Iraq the question has been why attack Islamic State here and not
:00:40. > :00:46.across the border in Syria. Well that question may now be provided
:00:47. > :00:52.with an answer. The former US Ambassador to NATO will join us.
:00:53. > :00:56.Those against Scottish independence used to have a lead of 20 points
:00:57. > :01:03.over the nationalists. Now it is down to six, how did they manage to
:01:04. > :01:09.throw away such a commanding lead? We ask Better Together's Jim Murphy.
:01:10. > :01:13.Also tonight: Some other folk maybe have lived a nice life and enjoyed
:01:14. > :01:17.themselves, spent their money, had holidays, and they still get the
:01:18. > :01:22.same treatment that my mum gets, but my mum is having to pay for it. A
:01:23. > :01:37.first look at a major new report into how we should manage care for
:01:38. > :01:41.the elderly in the 21st century. They did it once by gruesome video,
:01:42. > :01:45.it was probably only matter of time before they did it again. Two weeks
:01:46. > :01:50.after beheading James Foley, Islamic State tonight revealed it murdered a
:01:51. > :01:54.second US journalist, Time Magazine's Sotloff, another barbaric
:01:55. > :01:58.beheading, another unwatchable video, the same British accent
:01:59. > :02:02.behind the mask and the knife. He claimed a British hostage will be
:02:03. > :02:14.murdered next and unless America called off its attack on IS
:02:15. > :02:24.positions. Gatehouse is in Erbil in Iraq. IS are doing this because they
:02:25. > :02:27.want America to stop attacks, is it likely that America will widen
:02:28. > :02:32.attacks into Syria? It is unlikely America will be provoked into any
:02:33. > :02:36.kneejerk reaction. They knew Sotloff was being held and they knew his
:02:37. > :02:39.life was in danger. Whilst President Obama said they didn't have a
:02:40. > :02:43.strategy in place, what he most likely meant by that is they hadn't
:02:44. > :02:47.decided which strategy to follow yet, and they certainly didn't have
:02:48. > :02:51.a strategy that they were willing to share publicly yet. I think it is
:02:52. > :02:54.unlikely they will be provoked into anything rash, there certainly will
:02:55. > :03:02.be a lot more pressure on President Obama to readdress the balance, as
:03:03. > :03:07.it were, the balance of his policy of hitting IS here inside Iraq and
:03:08. > :03:11.not inside Syria. This is effectively now one war. I have seen
:03:12. > :03:15.on the ground the dramatic effects that US air strikes against IS have
:03:16. > :03:19.had there. Not only have they held IS away from this city here, Erbil,
:03:20. > :03:22.which did a few weeks ago look like it might be seriously threatened,
:03:23. > :03:32.but only yesterday some American air strikes managed to break the siege
:03:33. > :03:37.around the south from here that was under siege for three months by
:03:38. > :03:39.Islamic State, and the Americans bombing there, in support of a very
:03:40. > :03:44.unlikely coalition of not only the Iraqi army and Kurdish Peshmerga,
:03:45. > :03:48.but also Shia militias that are funded and supported by Iran. Those
:03:49. > :03:52.air strikes had a very dramatic effect in breaking that siege almost
:03:53. > :03:58.immediately. So the pressure, I think, to do something similar in
:03:59. > :04:01.Syria will certainly be on. That could be the explanation for the
:04:02. > :04:06.latest atrocity from the Islamic State, that the American air strikes
:04:07. > :04:10.are having a real effect, that they are even losing ground, that they
:04:11. > :04:17.had gained until the American air strikes came in, backed up by on the
:04:18. > :04:20.ground forces from local competents? That's certainly true. They have
:04:21. > :04:24.been losing ground here in Iraq, where they haven't really been
:04:25. > :04:28.losing ground is across the border in Syria. I was there in
:04:29. > :04:32.Kurdish-controlled northern Syria last week. I was on the Kurdish
:04:33. > :04:36.frontlines with IS, and while the Kurdish fighters there are doing a
:04:37. > :04:40.pretty competent job with the limited resources they have of
:04:41. > :04:45.keeping Islamic State out of their territory and holding them at bay,
:04:46. > :04:49.certainly the Kurds don't have the resources to dent Islamic State any
:04:50. > :04:52.further than that. Commanders there told me they would welcome any
:04:53. > :04:56.support they could get from the Americans or frankly whoever else,
:04:57. > :05:01.in their battle with the Islamic State. They have been going at it
:05:02. > :05:04.for over two years now, and the Kurds and frankly everyone else know
:05:05. > :05:15.that the Kurd are not going to be able to Islamic State on their own.
:05:16. > :05:24.All eyes on Washington and London for a response. A
:05:25. > :05:28.This second message closely follows the pattern of the one released a
:05:29. > :05:32.fortnight ago, showing the last moments of James Foley. Some topical
:05:33. > :05:37.references suggest this one was done recently. The hooded man beside the
:05:38. > :05:44.captive also seems to be the same British accented figure as in the
:05:45. > :05:50.Foley video. I'm back Obama and I am beak because of your foreign policy
:05:51. > :05:56.towards the Islamic State, and continuing the bombings. The Obama
:05:57. > :06:01.administration in Washington reacted swiftly to the second piece of
:06:02. > :06:08.choreographed horror. We have seen reports of a video that purports to
:06:09. > :06:13.be the murder of US citizen Sotloff by Islamic State, we will work to
:06:14. > :06:19.determine the authenticity, if the video is genuine, we are sickened by
:06:20. > :06:24.this brutal attack taking the life of another American citizen, our
:06:25. > :06:32.hearts go out to the Sotloff family. The US has mounted 120 aair strikes
:06:33. > :06:35.against IS. Two-thirds around the Mosul dam. The question now is
:06:36. > :06:46.whether they will hit the group in Syria. The Foley beheading video was
:06:47. > :06:53.thought to be filmed south of Raqqa the main Syrian base. The question
:06:54. > :06:58.of whether to hit targets in Syria is still in the White House and
:06:59. > :07:02.leaving President Obama adrift. We haven't a strategy yet what I have
:07:03. > :07:09.seen in some of the news reports suggests that folks are getting a
:07:10. > :07:14.little further ahead of where we are at than we currently are. Sotloff's
:07:15. > :07:18.family gathered this evening at their home in Florida where they
:07:19. > :07:22.were said to be grieving privately. Today's news followed all manner of
:07:23. > :07:26.pleas for mercy, including those of the journalist's mother, Shirley.
:07:27. > :07:34.Stephen has no control over the actions of the US Government. He's
:07:35. > :07:40.an innocent journalist. I have always learned that you can grant
:07:41. > :07:46.amnesty, I ask you to please release my child. Britain has already
:07:47. > :07:51.deployed tornadoes to Turkey for operations over Iraq. So far it has
:07:52. > :07:55.just been reconnaissance missions, will they now drop bombs. Threats
:07:56. > :07:58.tonight by ISIS against a British hostage makes the Government's
:07:59. > :08:03.decision even harder. The question always is of course about military
:08:04. > :08:08.action, are you satisfied that to take military action will leave
:08:09. > :08:11.things better than before. Can it be proportionate, can you be
:08:12. > :08:18.sufficiently targeted so as not to cause that terrible euphamism
:08:19. > :08:25."collateral damage". Will it be effective. In Iraq there have been
:08:26. > :08:30.small gains against ISIS this week. The question for Britain and America
:08:31. > :08:35.is whether expanding their military operations could win further
:08:36. > :08:40.tactical success, at the expense of giving the Jihadists the battle
:08:41. > :08:45.against the west they crave. Our reporter Secunder Kermani has been
:08:46. > :08:49.in touch with a number of British Jihadists fighting with Islamic
:08:50. > :08:53.State over the past week. What have you been hearing about what they are
:08:54. > :08:56.saying about the latest video? I have been in touch with two British
:08:57. > :09:02.members of Islamic State this evening. They both support Islamic
:09:03. > :09:10.State's actions here. They say the killing of Sotloff was justified
:09:11. > :09:15.because according to them that America had the opportunity to
:09:16. > :09:20.negotiate with IS and agree to stop attacking IS positions in Iraq. They
:09:21. > :09:25.say the killing of Sotloff was justified Islamically, despite under
:09:26. > :09:29.most interpretations of Islamic law Sotloff as a journalists would have
:09:30. > :09:33.been considered a non-competent. Do they think by beheading American
:09:34. > :09:38.journalists they will change American policy? The two men I was
:09:39. > :09:41.speaking to they seemed to relish the prospect of greater western
:09:42. > :09:45.military intervention in Iraq. They want to see partitioned American
:09:46. > :09:48.troops on the ground in the region, because quite frankly they say they
:09:49. > :09:53.want the opportunity to fight them and kill them. As we heard from
:09:54. > :09:56.Erbil there, they are also suffering from these American attacks. This
:09:57. > :10:00.could also be a sign of weakness? Well of course, I mean everything
:10:01. > :10:05.they say must be treated with a bit of caution. There is inevitably an
:10:06. > :10:10.element of bravado there. It seems to me that they see this as a sort
:10:11. > :10:14.of ultimate showdown that is inevitable of a fight between the
:10:15. > :10:18.west and the Islamic State. They think it is inevitable? And the
:10:19. > :10:22.British accent again, are we any closer to knowing who this person
:10:23. > :10:27.is? Apparently it seems it is the same man who appeared in the video
:10:28. > :10:31.of the murder of James Foley a few weeks back. The British IS members
:10:32. > :10:34.that I have been speaking to say they don't know who he is. They do
:10:35. > :10:38.say it is not any of the people who have been named in the British media
:10:39. > :10:44.so far. But they say his identity is being closely guarded by the
:10:45. > :10:49.internal Security Services of the Islamic State, the Amniate. They
:10:50. > :10:56.have their only internal security? They are able to keep a secret, the
:10:57. > :11:01.British men I spoke to said they hadn't seen the video and were not
:11:02. > :11:05.aware of it. I'm joined now by Roy Stewart, the Tory MP who chairs the
:11:06. > :11:10.Commons Defence Select Committee, and we're joined by the former
:11:11. > :11:15.United States permanent representative to NATO. How should
:11:16. > :11:20.America respond to this latest atrocity? I think to choose the
:11:21. > :11:24.words of President Obama we need a strategy. We need to actually think
:11:25. > :11:31.about what are the appropriate goals that we need to have to wrap up what
:11:32. > :11:36.is truly an amazingly brutal, evil force in Syria and Iraq that is
:11:37. > :11:39.destablising the region, threatening allies in the region and a grave
:11:40. > :11:43.threat to our own societies. I think in order to set a goal of
:11:44. > :11:48.eliminating ISIS we are going to have to work with a lot of regional
:11:49. > :11:52.players, especially Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Turkey, Jordan, the Iraqi
:11:53. > :11:56.forces and Kurdistan, in order to go after ISIS. I think we want to
:11:57. > :12:00.minimise the degree to which there are direct western boots on the
:12:01. > :12:03.ground. But it will take a concerted effort, which will require American
:12:04. > :12:08.leadership to help pull it together. It will require a willingness to put
:12:09. > :12:11.military force in play. What should the British reaction should be?
:12:12. > :12:14.Britain needs to follow very, very carefully this American debate. If
:12:15. > :12:22.President Obama is currently saying that he doesn't have a strategy, we
:12:23. > :12:27.have to be very cautious. But the key question is this very different
:12:28. > :12:32.to what we dealt with in 2007/2008. Is the Islamic State fundamentally
:12:33. > :12:37.different from Al-Qaeda/Iraq? If it isn't what are the options. It looks
:12:38. > :12:46.like it is, it looks like it will control a bit of territory? Al-Qaeda
:12:47. > :12:53.were guests in Afghan stance? We pumped in over $100 billion US a
:12:54. > :12:56.year and hundreds of thousands of troops on the ground and four years
:12:57. > :12:59.later it is back again. The problem the President is facing is he's
:13:00. > :13:04.looking at dealing with a bigger threat with fewer resources and
:13:05. > :13:09.trying to do without boots on the ground. What should the strategy be,
:13:10. > :13:13.he says he doesn't have one, should he for example extend the bombing,
:13:14. > :13:18.which actually seems to be quite effective against IS in Iraq. Should
:13:19. > :13:24.he extend that into Syria where they are also based? I think bombing
:13:25. > :13:29.alone is not sufficient but a necessary part. I think you need to
:13:30. > :13:32.have an approach towards supporting a moderate rebellion inside Syria to
:13:33. > :13:38.try to bring about a change of regime that is going to get Assad
:13:39. > :13:43.out of power, which is part of what has permented this ISIS -- fermented
:13:44. > :13:47.this ISIS rebellion. That is Then you need to go after ISIS itself.
:13:48. > :13:51.The biggest threat at the moment is ISIS, we need to be going after that
:13:52. > :13:55.on both sides of the border. ISIS doesn't respect any differences of
:13:56. > :13:59.the border. Assad attacked on the other side of the border, the Iraqi
:14:00. > :14:02.army is prepared to do its part inside Iraq, but that is a weak
:14:03. > :14:06.army. They need the additional support. We need the states of the
:14:07. > :14:11.region, and again I emphasise the key Sunni states that we have worked
:14:12. > :14:17.with in the past, sometimes called allies, but Saudi Arabia, the UAE,
:14:18. > :14:19.Turkey, Jordan, in order to create a regional framework for getting
:14:20. > :14:26.control back over the territories, as Mr Stewart was saying the Sunni
:14:27. > :14:30.tribes inside Iraq were the key to up ending Al-Qaeda in Iraq before. I
:14:31. > :14:34.think they will be the key to up ending ISIS as well. They don't
:14:35. > :14:38.relish being ruled by this medieval group. There is a point resonating
:14:39. > :14:42.with a lot of people in the west, why aren't those in the region who
:14:43. > :14:48.have most to fear from IS do more about it? Do we have any evidence
:14:49. > :14:51.that Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the UAE, Jordan, are going to get involved in
:14:52. > :14:57.this? This is the big fundamental question. Of course ideally Saudi,
:14:58. > :15:02.Turkey, Iran, others will be motivated, but so far they haven't
:15:03. > :15:04.been. The fighters are often moving through Turkey. There is evidence
:15:05. > :15:08.that some of the funding going into the Islamic State has come out of
:15:09. > :15:12.the gulf states. We have a hope that they are going to feel that these
:15:13. > :15:15.people are a danger to themselves. But our experience unfortunately
:15:16. > :15:19.across the world is regional states often find that difficult to
:15:20. > :15:21.believe. So they will make proper statement about it but getting them
:15:22. > :15:27.to do something will be more difficult. The President has been
:15:28. > :15:31.remarkably reluctant to get involved in this. At every opportunity he has
:15:32. > :15:36.put one step forward and then tried to take two steps back. But in that
:15:37. > :15:42.is he perhaps reflecting the mood of the American people? That they don't
:15:43. > :15:46.want to get involved? It is always hard to judge that. I think the
:15:47. > :15:50.President is reflecting his own instincts, his political calculus.
:15:51. > :15:55.He wants to be the President that pulls the US out of wars and doesn't
:15:56. > :15:59.send the military in as a way of engaging the United States in
:16:00. > :16:03.conflict. The American people, I think, indeed fatigue bid the wars
:16:04. > :16:08.in Iraq and Afghanistan, but at the same time terrified by what they see
:16:09. > :16:12.on television with these beheadings, and the threats to the United States
:16:13. > :16:17.from all the Islamist groups. Frankly we see a chaotic situation
:16:18. > :16:22.around the world, whether it is in Russia or in Iraq and Syria that we
:16:23. > :16:25.are talking about now. It seems to be spring out of control. I think
:16:26. > :16:28.the Americans are actually also looking for a strategy that they can
:16:29. > :16:32.believe in that's going to help try to keep the country safe. And the
:16:33. > :16:37.British people are war weary as well, they hate what is happening
:16:38. > :16:40.but they have no appetite for deep involvement beyond air strikes if
:16:41. > :16:44.that? That's true and it is also true, as the ambassador said that we
:16:45. > :16:48.have a lot of experience in trying to deal with these kinds of
:16:49. > :16:51.insurgies, but the things that the United States and Britain feel is
:16:52. > :16:56.necessary, an effective state in Baghdad, a good regional solution,
:16:57. > :17:01.these things so far doesn't exist. The chances of a caliphate, this
:17:02. > :17:07.time next year? Effectively what they have set up is pretty much
:17:08. > :17:15.something close to that in eastern Syria and Iraq. Now just over two
:17:16. > :17:19.weeks until the referendum in Scotland, the latest poll suggest
:17:20. > :17:24.the pro-independence campaign may be closing the gap on its rivals. The
:17:25. > :17:31.latest poll for YouGov suggests once you take out the undecided voters
:17:32. > :17:33.47% would vote yes, 53% no. The majority for the union but a lot
:17:34. > :17:38.smaller than it was. Only a month ago, there has been a lot of debate
:17:39. > :17:41.about how prepared Scotland is for the consequences of a yes vote. What
:17:42. > :17:45.are the implication force the rest of the UK. Here is the BBC Economics
:17:46. > :17:49.Editor. Could it be the end of a not always
:17:50. > :17:55.blissful marriage, divorce. The tearing up of the Union Flag and the
:17:56. > :18:00.acts of union that have bound Scotland together with the rest of
:18:01. > :18:04.the UK for more than 300 years. Up until now all the debate, all the
:18:05. > :18:08.aggro about Scottish independence have been really around what it
:18:09. > :18:12.moons for Scotland. But -- means for Scotland. But with the polls
:18:13. > :18:15.narrowing the penny has dropped and actually if Scotland were to
:18:16. > :18:18.break-away from the rest of the UK, that would have profound implication
:18:19. > :18:24.force those who live in Northern Ireland, Wales and England. Now it
:18:25. > :18:31.wasn't just the penny dropping, the pound fell very sharply today, to
:18:32. > :18:38.its lowest level against the dollar since march. March. The bound fell
:18:39. > :18:41.because currency markets are the most sensitive to political
:18:42. > :18:45.uncertainty, it tells you that political uncertainty for the UK has
:18:46. > :18:50.gone up. As a result the largest mover, the largest UK assets, price
:18:51. > :18:54.movement today was sterling. It would take months if not years to
:18:55. > :18:58.difficulty up the assets and liabilities of the UK, what impact
:18:59. > :19:03.would the uncertainty of all of that have on the economy? I think it
:19:04. > :19:07.would create uncertainty, because as you say we wouldn't know who would
:19:08. > :19:11.end up with what, and as a result of that you would probably find some
:19:12. > :19:13.business investment put on hold during that period, the economy
:19:14. > :19:16.would be weaker. It would make it much harder for the Bank of England
:19:17. > :19:19.to hike interest rates just at the point in time when at the moment
:19:20. > :19:23.they are indicating that is when they would start. So if Scotland
:19:24. > :19:27.does break-away, how will the assets and liabilities of this country be
:19:28. > :19:33.divided up? How difficult will it be to reach a settlement?
:19:34. > :19:36.You are a Cabinet Secretary and head of the Civil Service, if you were
:19:37. > :19:41.facing the prospect of having to separate Scotland from the rest of
:19:42. > :19:46.the UK, how would you be feeling today? I would be feeling pretty
:19:47. > :19:52.daunted and thinking this was a bigger task than I ever had to face.
:19:53. > :20:00.It is a major exercise trying to unpick a constitutional settlement
:20:01. > :20:03.built up over 300 years. Alex Salmond hopes and believes the
:20:04. > :20:08.negotiations on separation would not take more than 18 months, is that
:20:09. > :20:14.realistic? I very much doubt it. He wants it done in a year-and-a-half,
:20:15. > :20:22.the rest of the UK Government why should they dance to that deadline.
:20:23. > :20:26.I'm reminded of the made up Chinese proverb, "he who has the shortest
:20:27. > :20:31.deadline needs the deepest pocket". What about the thousands and
:20:32. > :20:34.thousands of civil servants based in Scotland who work for the whole of
:20:35. > :20:39.the UK, who would happen to them? I don't know the exact number but it
:20:40. > :20:44.is in tens of thousands, we, for many years ran a programme of
:20:45. > :20:51.dispersal. You remember the Hardman Report, and we deliberately placed
:20:52. > :20:59.more, a disproportionate number of civil servants in Scotland, in HMRC,
:21:00. > :21:05.DWP, all with major operations in Scotland. Way beyond what was needed
:21:06. > :21:12.to serve Scotland. They would all have to be repatriated. Leaving just
:21:13. > :21:17.the share that is needed for the 10% of the Scottish population. And what
:21:18. > :21:26.will be the collateral damage through separation, in Northern
:21:27. > :21:37.Ireland, Scotland and Wales and politics. If the vote was lost that
:21:38. > :21:41.would be a massive humiliation, and some Tory MPs have said to me they
:21:42. > :21:45.fear he would have to stand down. It is not only the Prime Minister who
:21:46. > :21:52.is anxious about Scots voting to separate. The implications for Ed
:21:53. > :21:55.Miliband and Labour would be seriously bad. Since the Second
:21:56. > :21:59.World War Labour and the Tories have won an equal number of general
:22:00. > :22:04.elections, and according to research done by the BBC, without Scotland
:22:05. > :22:09.Labour would have won two fewer. The thing is over the past 20 years
:22:10. > :22:16.Labour in that place has become even more dependant on MPs elected in
:22:17. > :22:21.Scotland. So without Scotland Labour's ability to win elections in
:22:22. > :22:25.the rest of the UK would be seriously impaired.
:22:26. > :22:29.Central London, Westminster, calm waters for now, but if the Scots
:22:30. > :22:35.decide they have enough of marriage to the rest of the UK, my goodness
:22:36. > :22:39.there will be mayhem. That was the consequences for the
:22:40. > :22:46.rest of the UK of Scottish independent. There. There is a
:22:47. > :22:51.longer version on iPlayer. I spoke to Murphy from the Better --
:22:52. > :22:56.Jim Murphy from the Better Together campaign, I asked why were the polls
:22:57. > :23:01.showing in favour of breaking up the union? I would rather be in
:23:02. > :23:06.discussions about our arguments and our report than the nationalists
:23:07. > :23:10.that are lagging in the poll. In one poll they have closed the gap but we
:23:11. > :23:14.are in the lead with the stronger argument. Why is it not cutting
:23:15. > :23:17.through with your own voters, a lot more Labour voters are saying now
:23:18. > :23:20.that they would vote for independence than were telling the
:23:21. > :23:24.pollsters only two or three months ago. Why are you losing the argument
:23:25. > :23:28.among your own people? We're not losing the argument. The vast
:23:29. > :23:32.majority of Labour voters are voting no, but we have more work to do. One
:23:33. > :23:38.of the arguments is the SNP have campaigned for two years and they
:23:39. > :23:41.have failed to turn patriotic Scots into nationalist Scots. Rather than
:23:42. > :23:45.convince patriots to become nationalists they have tried to
:23:46. > :23:49.scare Scots into being yes voters. I have heard you make the argument
:23:50. > :23:51.many times, but the polls are moving against you, it is not working.
:23:52. > :23:55.Downing Street has said tonight there is no need to change the
:23:56. > :24:03.Better Together campaign, do you agree with that? Absolutely. Mitch
:24:04. > :24:09.Alastair Darling is doing a great job. He is a brilliant job, a lead
:24:10. > :24:15.of 20 points now down to six, which definition of brilliance would that
:24:16. > :24:18.cover? Alastair Darling is leading the campaign effectively. He has
:24:19. > :24:21.brought together a Labour Party, Conservative Party and Liberal
:24:22. > :24:26.Democrats who normally punch one another in the nose, Mitch Darling's
:24:27. > :24:30.personality of being a bridge builder or conciliator has been a
:24:31. > :24:35.great advantage to this campaign. Also other permties such as Gordon
:24:36. > :24:40.Brown -- personalities and Gordon Brown and John Reid out campaigning
:24:41. > :24:43.on behalf of the Labour Party and Better Together, I'm confident we
:24:44. > :24:48.can win, we have a lot of work to do. I would rather be ahead in the
:24:49. > :24:54.polls than behind like the nationalists. Whatever the poll
:24:55. > :24:58.rating they welcome it, it is part of nationalism. We are determined
:24:59. > :25:01.and we can win this. The stakes are especially high for you and your
:25:02. > :25:05.party. If Scotland goes independent it will be much more difficult for
:25:06. > :25:08.you to form a Labour Government ever again, not ever again, but more
:25:09. > :25:13.difficult for you to have an overall majority in England and the rest of
:25:14. > :25:15.the UK, correct? You won't like me saying that, I don't really care
:25:16. > :25:21.about that, this is about whether the UK, the most successful of all
:25:22. > :25:24.union nations in the world has ever known whether it survives and we
:25:25. > :25:28.stick together. Scotland's place within the UK, a place within the
:25:29. > :25:35.European Union and the world. You would rather have a United Kingdom
:25:36. > :25:38.and no Labour not in the rest of the UK, is that what you are saying? Of
:25:39. > :25:41.course Andrew, that is the type of question that people ask all the
:25:42. > :25:44.time, they have asked over the past two years of the referendum. That is
:25:45. > :25:48.not what I'm saying and you know that's not what I'm saying. I'm
:25:49. > :25:50.saying of course there are implication for all political
:25:51. > :25:54.parties, political leaders and every politician, but every politician is
:25:55. > :25:57.temporary, every Government is temporary, independence is forever.
:25:58. > :25:59.Therefore what happens to the Labour Party, what happens to the Tory
:26:00. > :26:03.Party, what happens to the Liberal Democrats and all of the others, it
:26:04. > :26:07.is important but a secondary importance in deciding this historic
:26:08. > :26:12.outcome as to whether Scotland remains part of the UK. If Scotland
:26:13. > :26:18.votes for independence on September 18th, will run again as an MP for
:26:19. > :26:24.your constituency in May? Of course I would. But there is a complication
:26:25. > :26:30.here which your viewers know which is referendum day is September 18th,
:26:31. > :26:34.we have a general election next year with Independence Day not scheduled
:26:35. > :26:37.until March 2016. There is a peculiar arrangement we would have a
:26:38. > :26:41.House of Commons for a year if that was to happen. You would be an MP
:26:42. > :26:44.for what would be becoming a foreign country? It would be a peculiar set
:26:45. > :26:48.of arrangements but those are the rules. We don't have to do that or
:26:49. > :26:51.take that unusual and unnecessary risk here in Scotland. The fact is
:26:52. > :26:55.we can stick together. Politicians on all sides up here are much more
:26:56. > :26:59.worried about what happens to the people who work in financial
:27:00. > :27:03.service, who rely on the connections across the United Kingdom, sharing a
:27:04. > :27:10.common currency and I'm doing this interview on the banks of the River
:27:11. > :27:14.Clyde and I'm more worried about the thousands of shipyard jobs relying
:27:15. > :27:17.on the Royal Navy contracts in Clyde. We are looking forward to
:27:18. > :27:21.discussing that between now and referendum day, I'm confident we can
:27:22. > :27:27.win. It looks from the outside the campaign has turned nasty in recent
:27:28. > :27:31.week, way beyond the cyber unionist, you have been on the receiving end
:27:32. > :27:36.of this, why is it turning so nasty? I have been on the receiving end of
:27:37. > :27:41.it, and most of your viewers won't know about the phenomenon of cyber
:27:42. > :27:51.nats, intolerant of anyone who disagrees, and rounding on people on
:27:52. > :27:55.social networks and going on now. After Alastair Darling won in the TV
:27:56. > :27:59.debate it turned nasty for me on the street. I have been touring in
:28:00. > :28:03.hundreds of street corner meetings over 100 days, they have been great
:28:04. > :28:09.and passionate and people from all sides coming up. It took sans at the
:28:10. > :28:13.turn where there were mobs of yes voters who wouldn't allow anyone
:28:14. > :28:18.else an opinion. I had to suspend the campaign for three days over the
:28:19. > :28:24.weekend. I'm glad when I got back to my makeshift stage that whoever had
:28:25. > :28:27.turned on that noisy mob had quietly over the weekend turned it off
:28:28. > :28:32.again. You were implying it was one person switching on or off the
:28:33. > :28:37.nastiness, you are not accusing Alex Salmond of that? No I haven't done
:28:38. > :28:40.that, wherever I was going the yes Scotland offices co-ordinated
:28:41. > :28:46.through Facebook and Twitter and all sorts of other ways, and ways of
:28:47. > :28:51.organising a reception party, people who just wanted to be involved in
:28:52. > :28:55.these conversations in the political debate, passionate people on both
:28:56. > :29:00.sides, we worried for their safety. As a consequence we had to postpone
:29:01. > :29:03.the tour two three days, it is up and running again, I'm looking
:29:04. > :29:06.forward to getting out and having the great debate out on street
:29:07. > :29:12.corners in Scotland. Thank you for being with us tonight.
:29:13. > :29:15.Care homes for old folks don't always have a great reputation, only
:29:16. > :29:19.a quarter of us would consider moving into one, even if we became
:29:20. > :29:24.too fragile to look after ourselves in old at age. Paul Burstow has
:29:25. > :29:29.spent a year looking at what can be done to change that perception. His
:29:30. > :29:33.work for Demos at a London think-tank looked at how to provide
:29:34. > :29:36.interstandards of care for -- standards of care for an
:29:37. > :29:38.increasingly elderly population. We have been hearing from the residents
:29:39. > :30:03.of care home in Kent. I was on my own at home and I had
:30:04. > :30:09.heard about these homes and I thought perhaps it is a good thing.
:30:10. > :30:15.So I inquired, got all the details about it and that's how I happened
:30:16. > :30:22.to be here. So there is no more to it than that, actually. I have been
:30:23. > :30:29.here now since the beginning of the year. It is nice to have a bit of
:30:30. > :30:38.company. Because it gets very lonely when you're on your own, you talk to
:30:39. > :30:43.yourself. I have a ring round here, that is my granddad. He was a
:30:44. > :30:53.gymnast. I have heard a lot about some of these homes and this seems
:30:54. > :31:00.pretty good. The staff are good here. This was taken at Ashdown
:31:01. > :31:04.Forest. That is you on the motorbike.
:31:05. > :31:12.Mum is self-funded, rather a lot of money. It is just short of about
:31:13. > :31:18.?1,000 a week. It was the family home that had to be sold, I feel
:31:19. > :31:23.sadder because it was sentimental, it was always my home from when I
:31:24. > :31:29.was born, mum always insisted, as did my father that it would be there
:31:30. > :31:36.for me and that was her wish. My mum has saved all her life, she has gone
:31:37. > :31:40.without things like butter to put money aside, some other folk have
:31:41. > :31:44.lived a nice life and enjoyed themselves, spent their money, had
:31:45. > :31:49.holidays and they still get the same treatment that my mum gets, but my
:31:50. > :32:08.mum is having to pay for it. To be honest, I did find that a little
:32:09. > :32:14.unfair. You are very, very nice. I didn't decide, they sent me here,
:32:15. > :32:19.the doctor said, I don't know, they just put me here and I woke up and
:32:20. > :32:36.there I am, away, I ain't been back since. I did have an accident and I
:32:37. > :32:40.seemed to have lost my memory, I seem to have picked it up now and I
:32:41. > :32:51.know what they are talking about, but it was hard for a little while.
:32:52. > :32:55.I don't like it here. It is a bit, I like to get out and mix with a lot
:32:56. > :33:00.of people, you have to do what you are told. That is all right when you
:33:01. > :33:05.are a young boy, but when you are getting on a bit, you don't want to
:33:06. > :33:10.be told what to do, you know what I mean. This is where it happens. Are
:33:11. > :33:30.you paying for this yourself or the council paying? I'm not paying. They
:33:31. > :33:36.pay my rent. I'm lucky to be here. I can't hold anything, I can't lift
:33:37. > :33:43.anything, there's nothing, not a lot I can do. And this is why I need the
:33:44. > :33:49.care. Otherwise I wouldn't, I would be at home. I looked after my
:33:50. > :33:54.mother, I wouldn't have her put away and I wouldn't have dreamt of having
:33:55. > :34:01.her put in a home. So I looked after her and that was it. It was natural.
:34:02. > :34:11.I wouldn't put my mother in a home when I could look after her. But
:34:12. > :34:27.under the circumstances there is only me and if it wasn't for here
:34:28. > :34:34.where would I be? # We travel along
:34:35. > :34:40.# Singing a song # Side-by-side
:34:41. > :34:44.The dignified voices of some of our senior citizens, Paul Burstow joins
:34:45. > :34:47.me now. You say in the report we can no longer accept for others a
:34:48. > :34:51.standard of care that we wouldn't accept for ourselves. What is wrong
:34:52. > :34:54.with it? What is wrong with it is in the public mind people associate
:34:55. > :34:57.residential care with a sense of loss, a loss of home, a loss of
:34:58. > :35:02.independence, and often they associate it with a fear of neglect
:35:03. > :35:06.and abuse. Yet the 12 months I have spent on this commission looking at
:35:07. > :35:10.what great care looks like it is about giving people that ability to
:35:11. > :35:14.reconnect, to have good relationships, to be able to have a
:35:15. > :35:18.life they want to lead in that way. And to have some independence as
:35:19. > :35:23.well? That's right. It is about maintaining the normal rhythms of
:35:24. > :35:27.normal lie. Not being regimented but doing what you want to do. So there
:35:28. > :35:31.is some good care in the country? There is a lot of good care in this
:35:32. > :35:35.country and excellent care around the world, we have looked at both.
:35:36. > :35:42.There needs to be a spectrum, a continuum of care, housing of care,
:35:43. > :35:45.rather than this rigid definition of residential care which stifles
:35:46. > :35:49.things. And gives it a bad reputation in some people's eyes?
:35:50. > :35:52.Yes. It is a detailed and comprehensive report, I'm sure all
:35:53. > :35:55.the political parties will be looking at it. What would be the
:35:56. > :36:03.single biggest change in your view we could make that would improve the
:36:04. > :36:06.quality of housing with care? One is to change the planning system to
:36:07. > :36:10.make it easier for the right sort of housing to be provided, so people
:36:11. > :36:15.can make a choice but be how they want to lead their later lives, and
:36:16. > :36:18.make a choice about a new home to be living in. And make a difference to
:36:19. > :36:22.staffing arrangements so there is a license to practice as staff, and
:36:23. > :36:27.better training standards and paying them better. Better pay and more
:36:28. > :36:31.professional status, that would make a big difference? It would. As a
:36:32. > :36:35.society we are getting much older and old people do one thing, they
:36:36. > :36:37.vote, and they are a bigger part of the demographic than ever before.
:36:38. > :36:41.The political parties in some way will have to take some notice of
:36:42. > :36:44.this? They will, and this Government through its care legislation and the
:36:45. > :36:50.cap on care costs is trying to do its bit in that regard. But also
:36:51. > :36:53.this report is addressing the needs of working-aged disabled people,
:36:54. > :36:57.making sure they have these sorts of choices as well. In the end this is
:36:58. > :37:01.about people being able to maintain their independence wherever they
:37:02. > :37:05.live. The coalition has just passed the big Care Bill and act, from your
:37:06. > :37:08.report it is not nearly enough? What I really came out of Government
:37:09. > :37:11.thinking was that we still needed to do more and we hadn't done enough to
:37:12. > :37:15.look at the future of residential care. This report really is a
:37:16. > :37:19.clarion call to all political parties and to those who provide
:37:20. > :37:23.care. We can do better, good is already there, we can have excellent
:37:24. > :37:30.if we actually strive to do the sort of things this report is
:37:31. > :37:35.recommending. Now the newest plant species to be discovered by butt
:37:36. > :37:39.budding botonists will never sound the same again, the international
:37:40. > :37:45.cot knee Congress, I'm sure you think of nothing else, in the
:37:46. > :37:49.language of Aeneid and Homer and the stallwart of the tongue of owes
:37:50. > :37:54.would no longer be the lingua franca for cataloguing new discoveries. Is
:37:55. > :38:09.this a sign that learning Latin is not the bedrock of learning English
:38:10. > :38:23.we thought. Snowdrops, galanthus, N avadus.
:38:24. > :38:30.Kew Gardens, the Wembley of flowers. It seems we need to wake up and
:38:31. > :38:36.smell the roses, because behind our backs botonists have changed wait
:38:37. > :38:45.they describe plants. So was the bard right, "a rose by any other
:38:46. > :38:50.name would smell as sweet". In the will be arium at Kew, Professor
:38:51. > :38:55.David Simpson and his colleagues hold seven million plant specimens.
:38:56. > :39:01.Their job is as far from over. Some 2,000 new samples are identified
:39:02. > :39:05.every year. This This is a collection made by Charles Darwin.
:39:06. > :39:11.The great man himself? Yes. This was collected in 1832 from Patagonia,
:39:12. > :39:15.and this was collected on his trip around South America, as part of his
:39:16. > :39:20.voyage. He or his cohorts would have written up where they found it,
:39:21. > :39:25.those key details in Latin. It is certainly Latin was a way that you
:39:26. > :39:31.could get people in different parts of the world to understand what the
:39:32. > :39:37.botonist was talking about. This would have what we call a Latin
:39:38. > :39:41.diagnosis, this is just a short piece of Latin, written in Latin
:39:42. > :39:45.that gives the key features of the plants. So the main feature that is
:39:46. > :39:50.would help to identify the plant. So it could be the length, the leaves,
:39:51. > :39:55.the colour of the flowers. What we do now is we don't have the Latin
:39:56. > :39:58.description, we have started putting in this journal we put this little
:39:59. > :40:04.piece called the recognition statement. I think now we need to be
:40:05. > :40:14.talking to a much wider audience and plants of course are an important
:40:15. > :40:17.part of conservation in general. We have to get the information we have
:40:18. > :40:21.in the specimens and plant descriptions over to that larger
:40:22. > :40:28.scientific community, over the public at large.
:40:29. > :40:35.Are the men of the her arium being Hearn roar about this, what about --
:40:36. > :40:41.herbivorian about it, what about the men who went out and covered the
:40:42. > :40:45.globe and filled the houses here with specimens, would they have been
:40:46. > :40:49.happy about junking the Latin. It is often attacked for being a dead
:40:50. > :40:52.language but actually that is great, great advantage, because it is a
:40:53. > :40:56.dead language its rules are set in stone, there is no wriggle room,
:40:57. > :41:06.there is no room for development or lack of clarity. We spoke to this
:41:07. > :41:14.channel's face of gardening, Monty Don. Surely BBC Two is the elitist
:41:15. > :41:27.challenge, shouldn't we defend Latin and keep the hoi poloi at bay? No
:41:28. > :41:35.because one of the greatest things about the hoi poloi garden! Long may
:41:36. > :41:39.that last. If people feel intimidated by that, and that's bad,
:41:40. > :41:44.and they should be allowed to use English. For classification,
:41:45. > :41:47.botanical terms you need a common language to all countries and
:41:48. > :41:53.languages. I think Latin has done pretty well. Final word, in English,
:41:54. > :41:56.to our professor at Kew. What do you think Darwin would have made of
:41:57. > :42:01.this? Revolution, sacrilidge perhaps? I think Darwin would
:42:02. > :42:04.understand that things move on, evolution, this is evolution. I
:42:05. > :42:13.think he was connected with that? Yeah, yeah. And I think that would,
:42:14. > :42:17.I think he would have approved. I'm surprised not many of you spotted
:42:18. > :42:25.tonight's mistake, Homer did not write in Latin or speak Latin,
:42:26. > :42:28.indeed when he was riding the Iliad he did not exist, it was in ancient
:42:29. > :42:36.Greek. We're joined by our guests now. Let
:42:37. > :42:42.me come to you Dr Thomson first, you don't want Latin to have any place
:42:43. > :42:45.in science, why? Well I think they got it right when they said that
:42:46. > :42:49.Darwin would have approved really, because Darwin was interested in
:42:50. > :42:54.scientists being able to talk to each other. And of course in those
:42:55. > :42:59.days, when he was around, English hadn't quite taken over the world
:43:00. > :43:03.like it has since then, and Latin really was the lingua franca of
:43:04. > :43:07.scientist, so scientist could talk to each other in Latin. Nowadays, of
:43:08. > :43:12.course, no-one can talk to anyone in Latin. And the language of science,
:43:13. > :43:17.the language that I use is English. So in the interests of good
:43:18. > :43:26.communication between scientists we should be using English, which we
:43:27. > :43:29.now can do. Why use a dead language for live, 21st century science Dr
:43:30. > :43:33.Pawlicki? It is a very good question, and I think the answer to
:43:34. > :43:40.that has to be well there is no reason to hold on to it just for the
:43:41. > :43:45.sake of it. I think most classists would agree that we need to be
:43:46. > :43:49.pragmatic and if Latin is not serving the purpose that botonists
:43:50. > :43:52.and other scientists need it to do then there is no point keeping on
:43:53. > :43:56.using it just because it has always been done that way. Do you think
:43:57. > :44:04.that is the case? If I understand correctly how the new botanical
:44:05. > :44:09.systems are playing out. Certainly for the lengthier descriptions of
:44:10. > :44:13.the plants and so on, yes it seems to me sensible that Latin is no
:44:14. > :44:16.longer going to be the most accessible inclusive way of
:44:17. > :44:21.communicating that information. The naming I think is probably a
:44:22. > :44:25.different matter. When we're talking about the specific terms and words
:44:26. > :44:32.that are used to name these species, then I think holding on to the Latin
:44:33. > :44:38.words and the Latin words that we have is there. Many English words
:44:39. > :44:42.have more than one meaning, isn't Latin more specific? Isn't that the
:44:43. > :44:47.reason why it has lasted for so long, even in the scientific
:44:48. > :44:54.community? Well, yes. You could say that. But in fact in reality of
:44:55. > :44:57.course, two things, no-one is suggesting that Latinised names for
:44:58. > :45:02.plants and animals should be replaced. Although of course they
:45:03. > :45:07.are not actually Latin. They can be almost any language you care to
:45:08. > :45:11.think of. They just give endings to make them look like fake Latin. It
:45:12. > :45:16.is not as though we are actually using Latin for naming plants and
:45:17. > :45:25.animals any way. You mean we are making it up? Giving everything an
:45:26. > :45:30."ium". Is that you nodding? We coin the new, the botonists and
:45:31. > :45:34.scientists coin new words that fit the forms of Latin that they can
:45:35. > :45:39.come from English words and actually my understanding is very often they
:45:40. > :45:45.are Greek in origin but given a Latin form, so it is not as simple
:45:46. > :45:49.as it seems. Didn't Latin become the language of many things that were
:45:50. > :45:55.named in science from plants to minerals and so on, because in the
:45:56. > :46:02.18th or 19th centuries, most educated scientists had a Latin
:46:03. > :46:05.background. Now, even the most educated scientists probably don't?
:46:06. > :46:11.Yes, I think what we are dealing with here is very much an indication
:46:12. > :46:15.of lad tin's history in the modern world, which if we go back to the
:46:16. > :46:19.Rennaissance certainly and certainly through to the 18th century and a
:46:20. > :46:23.little bit beyond that, Latin was the language of scholarship, and you
:46:24. > :46:28.could guarantee that it was a lingua franca be and it is not now, not in
:46:29. > :46:33.the same way. A little bit sad Dr Thomson so see it go? Not at all,
:46:34. > :46:40.I'm not sad. I think one thing we all ought to remember is that Botany
:46:41. > :46:45.isn't exactly cool, is it. We think it is on Newsnight? Maybe you do,
:46:46. > :46:48.but a lot of people don't. And I think an association with a long
:46:49. > :46:55.dead language doesn't really help its image. So I think this is a
:46:56. > :46:59.great step forward. We better leave it there doctors both of you, that's
:47:00. > :47:05.it for tonight, Laura Kuensberg will be here tomorrow night, for now