:00:07. > :00:13.Are NATO leaders in South Wales preparing for a new Cold War?
:00:14. > :00:18.After Afghanistan NATO needs another mission, but a new cold war? Views
:00:19. > :00:26.on that here seem to depend on how close to Russia you live? The
:00:27. > :00:31.aggression will be sooner or later on the NATO borders and then it will
:00:32. > :00:35.be a wider conflict and cost more to be stopped. Now that everybody knows
:00:36. > :00:39.that the frontline aid worker David Haines is the British hostage under
:00:40. > :00:44.threat of death at the hands of IS, David Cameron says he's taking
:00:45. > :00:51.charge of efforts to bring him home alive. What can Britain do? We have
:00:52. > :00:54.the right policy saying we won't pay ransoms to terrorists who kidnap our
:00:55. > :01:02.citizens. That is difficult for families when they are the victims
:01:03. > :01:06.of these terrorists. Meet the Meek family, they have pulled their
:01:07. > :01:09.children out of school for a year to take them on educational odyssey
:01:10. > :01:22.around Britain in a caravan. What happens when they go stir crazy?
:01:23. > :01:25.Good evening, has Vladimir Putin set NATO his biggest test since the end
:01:26. > :01:30.of the Cold War. While the 18 leaders of the North Atlantic Treaty
:01:31. > :01:34.Organisation were gathering in Newport, South Wales today,
:01:35. > :01:40.pro-Russian separatist were advancing on the seaport of Mariupol
:01:41. > :01:45.with tanks and artillery. The secretary-general of NATO demanded
:01:46. > :01:48.Moscow withdraw the thousands of troops it has in Ukraine and stop
:01:49. > :01:52.the flow of arms and funds and troops. Vladimir Putin has raised
:01:53. > :01:56.the prospect of an imminent ceasefire, who has the whip hand.
:01:57. > :02:02.Our diplomatic editor is at the summit.
:02:03. > :02:05.You know when Petro Poroshenko the Ukrainian President came here he
:02:06. > :02:10.knew already that NATO would offer him very little in terms of firm
:02:11. > :02:15.military-type support. And that's why earlier this week he seems to
:02:16. > :02:19.have grasped the nettle of going for this peace negotiation. A
:02:20. > :02:24.negotiation that many people here regard as extremely unequal and
:02:25. > :02:28.likely to freeze in the gains of Russian separatist in east Ukraine
:02:29. > :02:31.and to call into question the integrity and sovereignty of
:02:32. > :02:36.Ukraine. But long along in this certain countries within the western
:02:37. > :02:43.alliance, like Germany and Italy have favoured talking over other
:02:44. > :02:45.more or potentially confrontational-type action, and
:02:46. > :02:49.that is how it has been here today. That has meant they haven't moved
:02:50. > :02:54.ahead in offering more assertive type of support to Ukraine and they
:02:55. > :03:01.haven't put any new sanctions on Russia yet. Although that could
:03:02. > :03:06.still happen in the coming days. So with those differences of view
:03:07. > :03:10.that begs the question about whether this threat to Ukraine and the new
:03:11. > :03:14.assertiveness of Russia, under Mr Putin does give NATO the type of
:03:15. > :03:18.mission, purpose, it has been looking for, since the end of the
:03:19. > :03:23.Cold War and whether it is in fact the beginning of what you might call
:03:24. > :03:28.a new Cold War. Golf courses and weapons of war
:03:29. > :03:32.don't really mix. But you could do worse if searching for a metaphor,
:03:33. > :03:37.for an alliance that is trying to get people thinking less about
:03:38. > :03:40.leisure and more about security. For some of the leaders here the idea of
:03:41. > :03:46.leisure and more about security. For a second Cold War is not so far
:03:47. > :03:50.fetched. We will, very often meet Russians in our airspace and we have
:03:51. > :03:56.to show them that we have capacity like that. We will have, we will
:03:57. > :04:00.have larger investments especially in the air area. You clearly have
:04:01. > :04:05.concerns about what Russia is doing right now, do you think those are
:04:06. > :04:07.shared across the alliance or do you think there is still important
:04:08. > :04:15.differences for example over Ukraine? I think it is, I think most
:04:16. > :04:21.NATO countries are now, especially after this summer's shooting down of
:04:22. > :04:26.the Dutch plane, the Malaysian plane that was shot down, I think it was a
:04:27. > :04:29.change of tone seeing the aggression, seeing how the
:04:30. > :04:34.separatist were working. I think the last weeks proved that there are
:04:35. > :04:41.Russian soldiers inside Ukraine, participating in the fighting. I
:04:42. > :04:47.think all of this has convinced most NATO countries that the Russian
:04:48. > :04:52.aggression has to be stopped. There was a demonstration of life-saving
:04:53. > :04:55.medical skills, learned in the hard school of Afghanistan. A
:04:56. > :05:00.medical skills, learned in the hard NATO operations and all the horror
:05:01. > :05:08.they involve has left the alliance weary and perhaps freed it of any
:05:09. > :05:16.glib notions of war. The end of the Afghan campaign inevitae begs
:05:17. > :05:20.questions about what NATO is for. NATO was founded in 1949 on the
:05:21. > :05:25.simple basis that an attack on one would be an attack on all. Since
:05:26. > :05:31.then it has grown to 28 members, including some of the Republics that
:05:32. > :05:37.used to be in the Soviet Union. They in particular now argue that Ukraine
:05:38. > :05:44.has become a test case for a new Russian expansionism that requires
:05:45. > :05:49.unity and firmness. If we will not stop an agressor in Ukraine the
:05:50. > :05:54.agressor will sooner or later on our NATO borders, and then it will be
:05:55. > :05:57.wider to spread conflict and cost a lot more to be stopped. Should
:05:58. > :06:05.western countries supply Ukraine with weapons? I think that the
:06:06. > :06:10.Ukraine needs to be supported in all necessary security measures
:06:11. > :06:14.available and because the nation is united, at least the nation is ready
:06:15. > :06:19.to go and fight and the history lessons are saying that you never
:06:20. > :06:24.give in, countries and never give up countries. But even as this summit
:06:25. > :06:30.was convening it was clear it could offer the Ukrainians money, training
:06:31. > :06:34.and ration, but no weapons. And while it gave their President a VIP
:06:35. > :06:39.welcome, it also sent him on his way to peace talks with President Putin
:06:40. > :06:45.where much may have to be conceded. I think he faces a very difficult
:06:46. > :06:48.situation, because he's clearly confronted with regular Russian
:06:49. > :06:53.troops that have invaded his country. And that's why he needs the
:06:54. > :06:56.support of us, the political support, the sanctions support, the
:06:57. > :06:59.economic support, because he's taking a beating with the Ukrainian
:07:00. > :07:03.economy, it is not only military things that count, it is quite a lot
:07:04. > :07:06.of other things now. What has been striking here today is the countries
:07:07. > :07:11.that have been most interested in coming out and talking to us are
:07:12. > :07:15.what you might call Russia's nervous neighbours. Those who think trade
:07:16. > :07:18.should be disrupted less, or who have perhaps been reluctant to call
:07:19. > :07:23.events in eastern Ukraine an invasion have been less visible
:07:24. > :07:26.here. And that hints at divisions in the alliance that have so far
:07:27. > :07:32.prevented it from getting back to that type of Cold War unity and
:07:33. > :07:35.common purpose. President Obama left for dinner this evening resisting
:07:36. > :07:40.the temptation for a spot of putting. He doesn't like talk of a
:07:41. > :07:46.second Cold War. But it is to America that many nations now look
:07:47. > :07:54.for leadership as a resurgent Russia unsettles NATO. Joining us now from
:07:55. > :07:58.Moscow is a former adviser to Boris Yeltsin, and now a director of the
:07:59. > :08:03.Institute of Democracy and Cooperation think-tank, good
:08:04. > :08:14.evening. First of all, is Vladimir Putin trying to remake the USSR? It
:08:15. > :08:19.is absurd to think in these terms, because Vladimir Putin said who
:08:20. > :08:25.didn't regret the disbandment and the collapse of the Soviet Union. He
:08:26. > :08:29.didn't have a heart but who is trying to or would like to restore
:08:30. > :08:35.the Soviet Union doesn't have any mind or brains which means Putin
:08:36. > :08:40.very clearly formulated his position on this issue. What you But what he
:08:41. > :08:44.has done so far, and it seems with impunity has annexed Crimea, how
:08:45. > :08:48.much of Ukraine does he want in a peace deal, does he want eastern
:08:49. > :08:56.Ukraine, or will Ukraine be allowed to remain within its sovereign
:08:57. > :09:03.boundaries? You know, we have different narratives from London you
:09:04. > :09:12.say see the things in one mirror, from Moscow we see in another. It is
:09:13. > :09:18.not Anwar nextation. In Kiev there was military coup against legitimate
:09:19. > :09:25.President after which Kiev happened to be in a chaos, collapsed and
:09:26. > :09:30.under the dominance of extreme nationalists from western parts of
:09:31. > :09:39.the Ukraine. What business is that of Russia? Legitimate authorities in
:09:40. > :09:44.Crimea decided that they don't want to live with this and they decided
:09:45. > :09:50.to organise a referendum and decide their own fate. And nobody
:09:51. > :09:56.eliminated the rights of the nation for self-determination. That's why,
:09:57. > :09:59.that's exactly what happened. Does, you talk about Vladimir Putin and
:10:00. > :10:03.the fact that the west has a different mirror through which to
:10:04. > :10:09.see things than Russia. Does the west have any influence at all on
:10:10. > :10:16.Vladimir Putin? The west doesn't have any influence because Russia is
:10:17. > :10:21.too big to let anybody to have influence over Russia. Can you
:10:22. > :10:27.believe that somebody has influence over America. If Obama confessed
:10:28. > :10:34.that anybody had influence the next day he will not be the President of
:10:35. > :10:40.America. Military, nuclear superpowers can't let anybody to
:10:41. > :10:44.have influence over him. If Ukraine had already been a member of NATO
:10:45. > :10:49.and they seek NATO membership, if Ukraine had been a member of NATO,
:10:50. > :11:01.would Vladimir Putin have got involved sending troops into
:11:02. > :11:07.Ukraine? Thank God once, even Bush Junior and westerners were smart
:11:08. > :11:11.enough not to let Georgia to be in NATO and in 2008 that proved
:11:12. > :11:22.otherwise it could be a catastrophe for the west and for the world. When
:11:23. > :11:27.Ossett at that was attacked and then there was a peace enforcement on
:11:28. > :11:35.behalf of Russian forces in Georgia. And now thank God that Ukraine is
:11:36. > :11:41.not part of NATO because this is the salvation for Ukraine, for the
:11:42. > :11:45.Europe and the world. Because the people in Ukraine who run the
:11:46. > :11:50.country they are absolutely irresponsible people. Let's be clear
:11:51. > :11:58.if Ukraine had been a member of NATO would Vladimir Putin have risked
:11:59. > :12:08.putting troops into Ukraine? You know you are raising incorrect
:12:09. > :12:12.questions. Thank God that in Bucharest European, French and
:12:13. > :12:19.German politicians decided that it is not going to be Georgia and
:12:20. > :12:27.Ukraine in NATO because this irresponsible people which never had
:12:28. > :12:30.any experience of statehood they can really create serious danger for the
:12:31. > :12:41.peace and security in Europe and in the world. And now we are witnessing
:12:42. > :12:47.exactly what is happening, but the surrounding people are killing their
:12:48. > :12:54.people, they are using artillery, aviation, multiple rocket launchers
:12:55. > :12:58.against peaceful population, killing everybody over there and
:12:59. > :13:04.unfortunately this is the reality. Here in the studio we have the pull
:13:05. > :13:09.letser prize-winning journalist and author of a number of books on the
:13:10. > :13:14.history of Russia and the Soviet Union. Has Vladimir Putin got the
:13:15. > :13:19.whip hand over NATO right now? It is important to understand what Putin's
:13:20. > :13:22.goal is now, his primary goal is for himself to stay in power. Almost
:13:23. > :13:25.everything we have seen in the last few months has been part of that
:13:26. > :13:30.game for him to stay in power. A piece of that means that in order
:13:31. > :13:33.for him to stay in power he has to prevent the creation of a
:13:34. > :13:38.democratic, integrated, western Ukraine. Because that would be a
:13:39. > :13:43.direct challenge to him. A secondary piece of that is he has to undo,
:13:44. > :13:47.undermine and eventually begin to pull apart the strands of NATO. And
:13:48. > :13:52.I think that's the game, those are the important questions to ask, is
:13:53. > :13:59.he succeeding in doing that. Is he. It seems you have the former Baltic
:14:00. > :14:02.states agitated, much less so than perhaps Italy or Germany or
:14:03. > :14:05.whatever? Certainly at the start of the crisis there were very deep
:14:06. > :14:09.divisions among European states. One of the effects of Putin's behaviour
:14:10. > :14:13.in the last few months, paradoxically, given this is not
:14:14. > :14:17.what his goal was, has been to bring more people together. Even the
:14:18. > :14:22.French a couple of days ago withdrew or they announced the postponement
:14:23. > :14:26.of their sale of warships to Russia. That was unexpected. Simply with
:14:27. > :14:30.French newspapers and television reporting simply the news from
:14:31. > :14:33.Ukraine the incursion of Russian troops it became simply too
:14:34. > :14:36.embarrassing, even for the French President. It is interesting because
:14:37. > :14:41.two things seem to be happening here, first of all maybe sanctions,
:14:42. > :14:44.and of course obviously the military sanctions, France not with standing
:14:45. > :14:48.have just announced, but sanctions are hitting the Russian people. But
:14:49. > :14:54.it is as if Putin doesn't care, in the sense that this is for Mother
:14:55. > :14:59.Russia, by the same token he seems to have made himself the embodiment
:15:00. > :15:02.of Russia? You have pointed to an important point about the crisis and
:15:03. > :15:05.relevant to Russia and other place, we in the west seem to think the
:15:06. > :15:08.point of Government is the material well being of people. We argue over
:15:09. > :15:12.which politician will bring us more wealth. Putin is playing a different
:15:13. > :15:16.game, he's bringing people power, he's bringing them some kind of
:15:17. > :15:21.imperial glory. He's really trying to appeal to something very
:15:22. > :15:24.different and maintain power in a different way. These material
:15:25. > :15:29.considerations that we care about, Russian food prices have gone up by
:15:30. > :15:33.4. 5%, seem right now not to be bothering him or anybody else. What
:15:34. > :15:36.he's saying if you have to suffer for Mother Russia I know you will
:15:37. > :15:41.suffer with me. That seems to be the line? It has worked before. There
:15:42. > :15:44.and in other places. Here we have it though, what will happen f there is
:15:45. > :15:52.this ceasefire, these talks of a ceasefire and the idea that Porter
:15:53. > :15:56.they are not giving away anything. Will the boundaries of Ukraine
:15:57. > :16:01.change, and secondly is the President of Lithuania right. If we
:16:02. > :16:05.don't stop him in Ukraine he will be knocking on Estonia and Latvia's
:16:06. > :16:08.door? The loonilyic of the crisis would lead us to believe it is
:16:09. > :16:16.possible. At every point in the crisis he has made a move and waited
:16:17. > :16:21.and how will the west react. If you are Lithuanian and you are watching
:16:22. > :16:26.that happening, all you can think is once he has divided Ukraine or
:16:27. > :16:31.frozen conflict, what is next, Belarus, the Baltic states and who
:16:32. > :16:34.knows. Are you pest mistic, or having said all this do you think
:16:35. > :16:39.there is a way of stopping this. Is NATO actually going to act. That is
:16:40. > :16:46.the point, had Ukraine what would have happened? I still believe if
:16:47. > :16:49.Ukraine had have been in NATO, which was never on the cards, I still
:16:50. > :16:53.believe he wouldn't have done T but for that reason it is very important
:16:54. > :16:58.now that we begin to re-think what NATO is and how it functions. It is
:16:59. > :17:01.still very bureaucratic, it is very old fashioned and out of date. Its
:17:02. > :17:06.bases are all in the wrong base. We need to have bases in Lithuania, in
:17:07. > :17:11.the Baltic states, along the borders which may be the next line of
:17:12. > :17:15.defence. Thank you very much indeed. The British hostage being held by IS
:17:16. > :17:19.and who appeared in the latest IS video being warned he will die next
:17:20. > :17:23.is named as David Haines. He has been involved in frontline aid work
:17:24. > :17:29.for more than 20 years in areas such as Libya, south Sudan and Syria. It
:17:30. > :17:31.was in a Syrian refugee camp in March last year he was captured.
:17:32. > :17:35.Hostages from other countries, including Italy and France, taken by
:17:36. > :17:40.IS have been released and this morning David Cameron said he was
:17:41. > :17:43.taking personal charge of efforts to secure David Haines's release. But
:17:44. > :17:48.tonight at the NATO conference he condemned the payment of ransoms as
:17:49. > :17:53.utterly self-defeating. What options does the British Government have.
:17:54. > :17:58.This report contains references to previous hostage situations. This is
:17:59. > :18:03.David Haines, he has been a hostage for 18 months. His life is now in
:18:04. > :18:08.the hands of terrorists. His fate seemingly beyond the reach of his
:18:09. > :18:15.family and his Government. His might conjures memories of Terry
:18:16. > :18:18.Waite and John McCarthy, British hostage held captive in a different
:18:19. > :18:22.time. 30 years ago they were household names. Their families
:18:23. > :18:27.tried everything, including fundraising evenings to get them
:18:28. > :18:33.released. There were appeals direct to the kidnappers. I appeal to you,
:18:34. > :18:39.whoever you are, in this holy month of Ramadan, the month of blessings
:18:40. > :18:43.and charity, to release my son John McCarthy and return him to his
:18:44. > :18:49.mother and father who miss him a very great deal. 25 years ago
:18:50. > :18:54.diplomats made public pleas. I would appeal to all those who have
:18:55. > :18:58.knowledge of them... This time they and the family sought a media
:18:59. > :19:02.blackout. Only when his name was circulated so widely on social media
:19:03. > :19:10.did most news organisations, including the BBC, feel it untenable
:19:11. > :19:17.to withhold it. This is Alastair Burt arriving for Cobra meeting.
:19:18. > :19:22.Until last year he was the minister overseeing hostage situation. The
:19:23. > :19:26.best advice we get is there should be as little information release as
:19:27. > :19:29.possible. I think there has been a realisation that the media is not
:19:30. > :19:32.campaigning with those who are holding them to release them.
:19:33. > :19:38.Because the people are not going to respond to that. Captors of a
:19:39. > :19:41.hostage will release them when it suits them and they will deal with
:19:42. > :19:44.them otherwise when it suits them. I think they have no interest
:19:45. > :19:49.whatsoever in what anyone else may be saying and will use the media for
:19:50. > :19:53.their own purposes. The judgment of the British Government is that
:19:54. > :19:57.publicity can actually make things much worse. If hostages become
:19:58. > :20:03.high-profile it may encourage the kidnappers to sell them on to even
:20:04. > :20:08.more dangerous groups, they in turn ask for higher ransoms. All of which
:20:09. > :20:13.can make potential rescues even more difficult.
:20:14. > :20:17.Earlier this year France denied paying a ransom to release these
:20:18. > :20:23.journalists held hostage in Syria. But they have done it before, and it
:20:24. > :20:28.is this that infuriates Britain. We don't pay. Tonight at the NATO
:20:29. > :20:33.summit, David Cameron was haranguing countries that do. That money goes
:20:34. > :20:38.into arms, it goes into weapons, it goes into terror plots, it goes into
:20:39. > :20:42.more kidnaps, it is utterly self-defeating, it is worse, it is
:20:43. > :20:48.actually a risk to us back at home. A New York Times analysis of
:20:49. > :20:52.reported hostage takings by Al-Qaeda and affiliates since 2009 suggests
:20:53. > :20:56.terrorists may be targeting by nationality. It may deter British
:20:57. > :20:59.people from being kidnapped in the first place, but doesn't it
:21:00. > :21:04.therefore make it much more difficult for us to get them back
:21:05. > :21:08.once they have been taken? This is an impossible dilemma, because how
:21:09. > :21:14.do you weigh up the benefits to citizens in the United Kingdom in
:21:15. > :21:17.not being targets of kidnapping, because the kidnappers know they
:21:18. > :21:28.won't get anything for it against the risk to individuals. Terry Waite
:21:29. > :21:34.is a reminder that hostages can come home. But times have changed and so
:21:35. > :21:40.have the terrorists. The true scale of the number of
:21:41. > :21:44.military veterans suffering from PTSD, post drawatic stress disorder
:21:45. > :21:48.has never been quantified or properly recognised. After recent
:21:49. > :21:51.conflicts, including Northern Ireland, Bosnia, Iraq and
:21:52. > :21:55.Afghanistan, increasing numbers are searching for help to stop it
:21:56. > :21:59.destroying their lives and the lives of their families. That help is not
:22:00. > :22:07.sufficient to the task in every days. Sometimes it takes years for
:22:08. > :22:11.PTSD to emerge, often in the form of flashbacks, veterans feel they are
:22:12. > :22:18.experiencing the battle over and over again. Fiona Lloyd-Davies's
:22:19. > :22:23.husband sustained PTSD from the height of the war in Bosnia in 1992.
:22:24. > :22:32.After he failed to find help she decided to investigate, and this is
:22:33. > :22:42.what she found. I can see the blood, I can see the injured guys, I can
:22:43. > :22:50.hear the noises. You are there again, you smell it. The last four
:22:51. > :22:55.years around about 32 hospitalisations via 999 calls. The
:22:56. > :23:01.NHS experience for me has been a complete snakes and ladders game of
:23:02. > :23:06.revolving doors. Our life completely revolves on PTSD. If we're not
:23:07. > :23:14.fighting the PTSD on a daily basis then we're fighting to get services.
:23:15. > :23:18.All over Britain behind closed doors families are having to endure the
:23:19. > :23:21.daily torture of seeing their loved ones battle with post-traumatic
:23:22. > :23:30.stress disorder. They tell us they are struggling to find treatment and
:23:31. > :23:34.it is ruining their lives. In Liverpool, Sue started a group to
:23:35. > :23:39.support wives like her, whose husbands and partners are suffering
:23:40. > :23:43.from post-traumatic stress disorder after serving in the forces. It has
:23:44. > :23:47.just got worse and worse and worse. He has different stages all the
:23:48. > :23:53.time. One minute he it be, you can see the change in his eyes, he can
:23:54. > :23:56.be like the devil. PTSD, as it is known, is thought to affect roughly
:23:57. > :24:00.7,000 people in the Armed Forces. What we don't know is how many
:24:01. > :24:05.veterans are suffering with it because there has never been a
:24:06. > :24:09.comprehensive study. When I got home the police were at the house and he
:24:10. > :24:13.was already in the back of the police van and a lovely policeman
:24:14. > :24:17.that had actually served came up to me and he said to me he doesn't need
:24:18. > :24:23.to be in a cell, needs a hospital doesn't he. I said, yeah he does.
:24:24. > :24:28.Sue's husband had done 13 tours of Northern Ireland in six years and
:24:29. > :24:32.was invalided out of the army with physical injuries. Once he had left
:24:33. > :24:38.he was under the care of the NHS and a growing charity sector. We had two
:24:39. > :24:41.years of what they call a revolving door admission, my husband would be
:24:42. > :24:46.in hospital for six weeks then home for a couple of weeks, another
:24:47. > :24:49.flashback would be triggered, the police would come out, they would
:24:50. > :24:53.slap him back in hospital, they would keep him on the ward for
:24:54. > :24:58.another six weeks and then send him home. Some veterans are getting the
:24:59. > :25:03.treatment they need, but those like Sue's husband, who are the most
:25:04. > :25:09.acute, and others, the majority with associated addictions such as
:25:10. > :25:16.alcohol and drugs, are struggling. Until he retired this year Dr Kerin
:25:17. > :25:20.Fletcher was one of the only two NHS psychiatrists who specialised in
:25:21. > :25:27.both trauma and addictions. The National Health Service the level of
:25:28. > :25:30.trauma training is very poor, and it is unusual for doctors, even
:25:31. > :25:34.psychiatrists to get particular training in treating people with
:25:35. > :25:38.psychological trauma. When I flashback and I collapse, very good
:25:39. > :25:48.chance that I have a stroke, which would be catastrophic. My cupboard
:25:49. > :25:53.now contains antidepressants. Sodium to stop me fitting and more
:25:54. > :26:00.importantly if I do fit they stop me, or will help to stop me having a
:26:01. > :26:03.stroke. At least two-thirds of veterans suffering from PTSD use
:26:04. > :26:08.alcohol because of their condition. Dave is one of them. One will always
:26:09. > :26:12.go with the other, I don't drink normally, it is only if I say I have
:26:13. > :26:17.been suffering three, four, five days on the trot, no sleep,
:26:18. > :26:25.flashback, nightmares, I'm going crazy out of my mind, then I will
:26:26. > :26:31.start drinking because it will persuade me after a litre of Vodka,
:26:32. > :26:36.like a pint or two for people, it calms me down. People who take
:26:37. > :26:39.alcohol are actually in that context completely misunderstood, because
:26:40. > :26:43.they are regarded as people who could stop it if they wanted to.
:26:44. > :26:47.That they are doing it to self-medicate consciously, they are
:26:48. > :26:51.not. They in fact are doing it because they unconsciously need to
:26:52. > :27:00.have the endorphins to be able to make themselves feel reasonably
:27:01. > :27:04.normal. Dave was finally diagnosed with PTSD in 2007 and spent nearly a
:27:05. > :27:11.year in a clinic. For a while things were better, but his PTSD returned
:27:12. > :27:14.way it his need for alcohol. When you fix the PTSD the people don't
:27:15. > :27:22.need to have those particular substances. So to entirely divorce
:27:23. > :27:26.addictions as being a sort of chemical consequence of having PTSD
:27:27. > :27:30.and treat that as a separate entity all together misses the point.
:27:31. > :27:37.Because the PTSD is the driving force behind it, you have to take it
:27:38. > :27:40.into account. We don't have any services in the UK where a
:27:41. > :27:44.significant level of alcohol dependence and a significant level
:27:45. > :27:49.of psychological trauma can be treated together. So you have this
:27:50. > :27:53.dreadful situation where the chances of you being able to get the
:27:54. > :27:59.treatment you need are extremely low. The NHS, as good as they are,
:28:00. > :28:06.they have saved my life a couple of times at least. But they have to
:28:07. > :28:09.keep referring me to combat stress, and combass stress is a small
:28:10. > :28:19.charitable organisation. There is thousands of us. Veterans like Les
:28:20. > :28:26.can also receive treatment from the charity sector, either directly or
:28:27. > :28:29.via the NHS. It is led by Combat Stress, which receives 40% of
:28:30. > :28:33.funding from the Government. It was set up in 1919 to help soldiers
:28:34. > :28:37.suffering from shell shock, and over the last 95 years has developed a
:28:38. > :28:41.range of treatments and services. The number of veterans contacting
:28:42. > :28:45.them is steadily increasing and last year over 1,000 veterans were
:28:46. > :28:49.admitted for residential treatment. They have also established a
:28:50. > :28:55.six-week intensive treatment programme. Les was accepted on to it
:28:56. > :29:02.in November 2012. It was more group therapy than individual therapy. And
:29:03. > :29:06.group therapy you know didn't help me much. Combat Stress says the
:29:07. > :29:10.programme is showing good results and it helps approximately 200
:29:11. > :29:16.people each year. But the veterans we have spoken to, like Les, have
:29:17. > :29:20.criticisms. I just couldn't take it all in. As I say, after the first
:29:21. > :29:27.three weeks I didn't want to go back. And while I was there all the
:29:28. > :29:35.little boxes were opened up again. They gave us the tools to close
:29:36. > :29:39.them, but it didn't work. So I left there feeling pretty much worse than
:29:40. > :29:47.I was when I got there. I came back and for the first three weeks I
:29:48. > :29:53.didn't leave my house. I don't know who Compat Stress sent me, it wasn't
:29:54. > :29:59.my husband. They destroyed him. They absolutely tore him apart. The first
:30:00. > :30:04.four weeks I don't think I slept in our bed, two particular nights. Can
:30:05. > :30:10.you describe why? He was having nightmares, and these were the worst
:30:11. > :30:16.I have ever seen. Previously before he went in, I don't know if you
:30:17. > :30:23.actually know this, but before the arm would come across, his whole
:30:24. > :30:30.body would tense up. I had no warning after he came out of Combat
:30:31. > :30:38.Stress until I felt with his first or his elbow or his head. He put his
:30:39. > :30:44.hand around my throat and squeezed and he has never done that before.
:30:45. > :30:48.Others also had concerns about the course, Dr Fletcher resigned from
:30:49. > :30:53.Combat Stress last year after working there for nearly two
:30:54. > :30:59.decades. You don't ever, ever get people out of a deeply ingrained
:31:00. > :31:03.disorder in the space of a single six-week episode of treatment. You
:31:04. > :31:10.need continuing care, repeated episodes of treatment and so on.
:31:11. > :31:13.Combat Stress offer follow-up sessions, three, six and 12 months
:31:14. > :31:18.after their intensive treatment programme. You worked at Combat
:31:19. > :31:24.Stress for nearly 20 years and you left last year, can you tell us what
:31:25. > :31:33.led you to resign? I think clinical exasperation is the reason that I
:31:34. > :31:37.left. I was also discouraged by the managerial pressures to push people
:31:38. > :31:47.through groups that I didn't think were sometimes fit for purpose. And
:31:48. > :31:51.the degree of managerial influence over clinical decision making so,
:31:52. > :32:00.because I'm old and tired I decided to leave rather than stay with those
:32:01. > :32:03.frustrations. Les did find alternative treatment from several
:32:04. > :32:09.different charities and he's now able to leave the house and lead a
:32:10. > :32:13.more normal life. Dave Salt has previously been to Combat Stress
:32:14. > :32:17.three times and was accepted on to their six-week intensive treatment
:32:18. > :32:21.programme. Under the condition that he stays alcohol-free for three
:32:22. > :32:27.months. But because he's failed this criteria he won't be allowed on to
:32:28. > :32:34.the course at the moment. We're talking my life, it gets very
:32:35. > :32:44.serious. My body won't take any more alcohol, any more poise sin, and --
:32:45. > :32:50.poise sin, and you become suicidal, when you are that low it is death.
:32:51. > :32:54.You are Dead Man Walking, you won't see old age. What they have been
:32:55. > :33:02.through is appalling and they have done it for their country and the
:33:03. > :33:06.impact of PTSD and alcohol dependence on their lives is so
:33:07. > :33:09.appalling you would thought a small degree of priority to be given to
:33:10. > :33:14.this severely affected group and it is not being given and it should be
:33:15. > :33:19.given. That's why it is essential to
:33:20. > :33:23.preplan that safety plan if you need to escape the house and have it set
:33:24. > :33:29.in your mind and have code words for the kids. Even our dog knows if I
:33:30. > :33:34.say "here now", the dog comes running and we're out the door. It
:33:35. > :33:39.is madness, isn't it. For Sue and her group, they want to find help
:33:40. > :33:44.for their husbands now. Yet for the vast majority of veterans, those who
:33:45. > :33:48.have acute PTSD and those who use alcohol or drugs because of it, they
:33:49. > :33:54.are struggling to find the treatment they need when they need it most.
:33:55. > :34:01.When my husband was injured serving in the army I thought he was gone. I
:34:02. > :34:07.was told he wasn't gone, and I was assured that due to the Military
:34:08. > :34:13.Covenant ourselves, my husband, myself, my family would get any
:34:14. > :34:17.required medical care and any required financial care that he
:34:18. > :34:20.needed for life, for having done his duty, for having made sure the
:34:21. > :34:26.people of this country were protected. This isn't happening and
:34:27. > :34:30.it is not happening in a lot of households across the country. We
:34:31. > :34:34.asked for an interview with someone from the health service in England
:34:35. > :34:39.but no-one was available. But the NHS gave us the following statement.
:34:40. > :35:08."NHS England recognises there is significant room for improvement...
:35:09. > :35:19.We have the director of medical services at Combat Stress, we will
:35:20. > :35:24.come on to the specific which is are being directed towards Combat
:35:25. > :35:28.Stress. On the general point do you accept that provision is limited to
:35:29. > :35:33.veterans? Provision has improved over the last seven-and-a-half years
:35:34. > :35:36.since I joined the charity, it is better than it was. It needs to grow
:35:37. > :35:44.further. I would accept more can be done. Some veterans that we spoke to
:35:45. > :35:48.had found that the treatment by Combat Stress had actually made
:35:49. > :35:51.their condition worse rather than better, it doesn't work for all
:35:52. > :35:54.people? Treatment doesn't work for all people. Having said that I was
:35:55. > :35:58.concerned to see the film and of course I will look at each
:35:59. > :36:06.individual case as best I can and try to put things right for them. It
:36:07. > :36:08.seemed to me that treatment could be stopped half way through or people
:36:09. > :36:14.didn't engage fully. But a lot of the treatments we do have do work.
:36:15. > :36:17.The difficulty is always about engaging the individual into the
:36:18. > :36:26.treatment pathway and keeping him there. Two things, both Dr Fletcher
:36:27. > :36:32.and Professor Turnball talked about the dual nature of the condition,
:36:33. > :36:38.both alcohol and PTSD, and what the professor seemed to be saying is
:36:39. > :36:43.there is a misuning it is not an alcohol dependence but a need for a
:36:44. > :36:47.kick in the endorphin, dealing with alcohol first or demanding a
:36:48. > :36:50.three-month withdrawal period before the six-week programme is
:36:51. > :36:55.counter-productive? It is very difficult to know precisely what
:36:56. > :36:58.will work for each individual. Each individual needs a tailor-made plan
:36:59. > :37:02.and that is what we try to do. At the front end of a clinical pathway
:37:03. > :37:07.we assess their needs and if they have alcohol or drug problems, now
:37:08. > :37:11.they are rolling out an alcohol service management in the community
:37:12. > :37:14.which means we would allow the individual to access a local
:37:15. > :37:18.statutory service to have their des to go and then case manage them back
:37:19. > :37:22.to a treatment to deal with the mental health problems as quickly as
:37:23. > :37:26.possible. What the doctors seem to be saying is actually the des to go
:37:27. > :37:31.is impossible, the two things are so interlinked there is no service that
:37:32. > :37:36.deals both with the trauma and the alcohol together that actually what
:37:37. > :37:39.happens is some veterans are barred from the programme because they
:37:40. > :37:46.can't deal with the drug and alcohol? The main issue about our
:37:47. > :37:51.six week programme is it does mean a lot of trauma-focussed and cognitive
:37:52. > :37:53.behaviour therapy, so you have psychotherapy to confront the
:37:54. > :37:56.horrible things you have been through, we have to have you in the
:37:57. > :38:00.room to do that. If you are drinking before and after it won't work. It
:38:01. > :38:02.is a big dilemma we want them treated as soon as practicable. Then
:38:03. > :38:07.you have the case there of treated as soon as practicable. Then
:38:08. > :38:11.who said what happened was he came to the programme and got the tool
:38:12. > :38:15.box in order to help but couldn't close that box. What he seemed to be
:38:16. > :38:20.saying was that the six-week programme is really not sufficient
:38:21. > :38:22.to the task? Well the issue, I can't discuss the individual case because
:38:23. > :38:29.I don't know the details. But the fact is we have treated around 477
:38:30. > :38:33.patients through the six-week programmes, and the outcome is good.
:38:34. > :38:39.The programme was devised in Australia where it treated 4,000
:38:40. > :38:43.veterans with serious PTSD, severe PTSD and passed problems with
:38:44. > :38:48.alcohol that were stable and their outcomes were about 70% that one
:38:49. > :38:54.year follow up did well. Two-thirds have these alcohol and drug-related
:38:55. > :38:58.issues as well with PTSD. For some that six-week programme when I say
:38:59. > :39:02.it hasn't worked, you heard families there saying that actually their
:39:03. > :39:06.partners or husband came out in a sense a worse state because they
:39:07. > :39:12.found they were uncontrollable violence and so forth. Presumably as
:39:13. > :39:17.Combat Stress increases its own expertise that actually you might
:39:18. > :39:19.consider changing that programme? The programme will evolve and get
:39:20. > :39:24.better, that is my observation about it. But at the moment the evidence
:39:25. > :39:32.so far is that the outcomes are better than the Australian outcomes.
:39:33. > :39:36.We are benchmarked by the Australian veterans' mental health leads. We
:39:37. > :39:41.are benchmarked every year, we submit quarterly reports to the NHS.
:39:42. > :39:45.We have very high satisfaction and exit rates that are independently
:39:46. > :39:50.scrutinised of the veterans that attend. There are a lot of veterans
:39:51. > :39:52.who have benefitted tremenduously, life-changing benefits from the
:39:53. > :40:00.programme. Thank you very much indeed. It is back to school time,
:40:01. > :40:05.parents can heave a sigh of relief. But not one very dedicated or
:40:06. > :40:11.perhaps crazy family, the Meeks, parents Tim and Kerry and daughters
:40:12. > :40:14.Amy and Ella have embarked on an epic year-long education road tripe
:40:15. > :40:19.around the UK. Often dovetailing their curriculum of everything from
:40:20. > :40:25.maths to bush skills with Radio 4's timetable, anything from Thought for
:40:26. > :40:30.the Day to Moral Maze, travelling with a caravan, they limbered up by
:40:31. > :40:34.setting the girls 100 challenges to achieve in a year. They recorded it
:40:35. > :40:40.all. Here is a flavour of their ideal of informal learning. One of
:40:41. > :40:47.our changes we have been told to name our caravan and to record the
:40:48. > :41:56.places it visits, we have named it Ellie.
:41:57. > :42:01.Well I'm now going in to meet the Meek family in their shiny caravan,
:42:02. > :42:05.the girls have obviously been allowed to stay up very late tonight
:42:06. > :42:10.to watch Newsnight. Good evening all of you. Hello. This is an adventure.
:42:11. > :42:15.Tell me first of all why have you taken them out of primary school?
:42:16. > :42:19.Well we spent a lot of time in the last year doing 100 adventures
:42:20. > :42:22.together when the chance to win a caravan came up we thought it was
:42:23. > :42:26.the perfect opportunity to try to make more of that and exploit the
:42:27. > :42:30.opportunities to teach our own children for a year. Do you think
:42:31. > :42:33.though that as a teacher yourself you can often the children something
:42:34. > :42:37.special or do you think anybody could do this, it is a huge risk? We
:42:38. > :42:40.have an advantage because we're teachers and that we know what
:42:41. > :42:44.schools teach. But I don't think you need to be a teacher. I think a
:42:45. > :42:48.parent knows their child better than anyone else. And they should be able
:42:49. > :42:51.to give them enough of a wide curriculum, with home schooling
:42:52. > :42:54.there isn't a set curriculum, you can teach them what you want and
:42:55. > :42:59.they can follow their interests. So did you have a hand in this or was
:43:00. > :43:02.this handed down to you, you will go away from school for a year or it
:43:03. > :43:07.was a decision you were involved in Amy? We were involved in it, it
:43:08. > :43:11.wasn't just the parents say we are taking you out of school now. We
:43:12. > :43:17.were involved in the decision and we were eager to do it as well. We
:43:18. > :43:21.enjoyed school but this is a new opportunity and we are eager for new
:43:22. > :43:26.opportunities. I hear you are going to do things by Radio 4, do you
:43:27. > :43:32.Lizzen to Moral Maze is that one of the things you are listening to?
:43:33. > :43:37.Things on Radio 4. Do you listen to the Archers? Maybe. What about you,
:43:38. > :43:40.Ella, did you not worry about leaving all your friends and being
:43:41. > :43:45.stuck with the family for a year? Yes but we are keeping in contact on
:43:46. > :43:51.Skype. Last night I went on Skype with one of my best friends and also
:43:52. > :43:57.we're going to go Nottingham where all our friends are this weekend to
:43:58. > :44:01.see them. Also we're not just lonely because we're on caravan sites with
:44:02. > :44:05.lots of friends that we meet. So you are meeting lots and lots of people.
:44:06. > :44:07.What kind of things, you have just started on this, I know you did the
:44:08. > :44:11.big challenge this year, you have only been on the road for four days.
:44:12. > :44:15.What have you learned so far. Tell me something unusual you have
:44:16. > :44:18.learned? Well we have been to Warwick Castle and we have learned
:44:19. > :44:22.lots of things from there, but probably the most exciting thing
:44:23. > :44:29.that we learned there was the, what's it called? The trebouchet
:44:30. > :44:33.where it fired things like fireballs miles away. You learned about that
:44:34. > :44:36.and you might not have learned about that in school? No, probably not.
:44:37. > :44:40.What happens when you have done this for a year. You sold your house, you
:44:41. > :44:43.don't know where you are going to land up, and presumably at some
:44:44. > :44:47.point you will need to make a decision whether the girls will go
:44:48. > :44:51.back to school or back to... Also the financial reason as well. We
:44:52. > :44:55.have sold our house and given up our jobs and we have allocated an amount
:44:56. > :44:59.of money to survive on for a year. The answer to that is there isn't an
:45:00. > :45:04.answer really it is an open book. We are hopefully going to see if we can
:45:05. > :45:07.extend it further f we can't there is always the option of taking them
:45:08. > :45:11.back to school. What tell me beyond the curriculum and you both know the
:45:12. > :45:13.curriculum as teachers, what are you teaching them, what are you giving
:45:14. > :45:19.them that the school can't give them? I have always thought than I
:45:20. > :45:25.formal learning is underrated. Learning isn't formalised and sat at
:45:26. > :45:29.a table, but learning outside. Multisensory learning, being able to
:45:30. > :45:33.design a curriculum we think is tailor-made for our children and
:45:34. > :45:36.adapt is where they want to take it within reason. Very briefly, what
:45:37. > :45:40.happens when you all fall out and you think I have been with mum and
:45:41. > :45:45.dad far too much? Sometimes we might just close the divider that's there
:45:46. > :45:49.and sit in our bed for a while, thinking gosh, but we get over it
:45:50. > :45:53.and have a great time. We haven't had too many scuffles. Good luck to
:45:54. > :45:56.you. Make sure you get no problems with the caravan and you have a
:45:57. > :46:01.wonderful trip. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you. We finish
:46:02. > :46:07.tonight, she was the Queen of the one liner, she had an acid wit and
:46:08. > :46:13.she often turned that wit on everybody including herself. Joan
:46:14. > :46:16.Rivers died at the age of 81. She joked when she got to the pearly
:46:17. > :46:22.gates the chances are God wouldn't recognise her because she had so
:46:23. > :46:30.much plastic surgery. Here she is in incomparable form, good night. Take
:46:31. > :46:37.your time, what are you using? Tell me? Excuse me, we are going to be
:46:38. > :46:42.very adult tonight, Dr Ruth out here, we are talking adult level,
:46:43. > :46:53.what are you using for contraception? Are you using
:46:54. > :46:58.something? Does it look round? Had (laughter) because you also put make
:46:59. > :47:01.up on with it because that would be the sponge or something really
:47:02. > :47:06.stupid you could take a pill and go like that. See you are taking the
:47:07. > :47:10.pill, just curious, people get so testy these day, I was taking the
:47:11. > :47:13.pill but I was putting it in the wrong place so I had my kid!
:47:14. > :47:20.pill but I was putting it in the wrong place so I had my kid! Good
:47:21. > :47:24.evening, let's see what is happening on the weather front for the final
:47:25. > :47:26.day of the working week for most of us. We have some rain to