:00:00. > :00:15.The dash for Scotland, the Prime Minister hoists the saltire over
:00:16. > :00:18.Number Ten. But will Cameron, Miliband and Clegg's last-minute
:00:19. > :00:23.trip turn into a clumsy move if Scotland is ready to let go. There
:00:24. > :00:24.is a contempt across the country for Westminster practices and
:00:25. > :00:29.politicians, they have no credibility left. But the examine is
:00:30. > :00:39.neck and neck, not over yet. Big names are still in the battle. But
:00:40. > :00:45.if Scotland does go, what is the etiquette for what Britain will be
:00:46. > :00:49.called. What I'm calling is a conscious uncoupling. Think of it as
:00:50. > :01:01.Chris Martin and Gwnyeth. It is essentially us parting. The Man
:01:02. > :01:06.Booker Prize shortlist is out, how do you discuss a book more than its
:01:07. > :01:10.cover. We will discuss. Good evening, don't panic for Scots
:01:11. > :01:13.who want to stay in the union, David Cameron, Nick Clegg and Ed Miliband
:01:14. > :01:18.are on the way. Except perhaps their rush to Scotland tomorrow is for
:01:19. > :01:22.some precisely the kind of gesture politics that increasing numbers of
:01:23. > :01:25.voters are poised to reject. And raising the Scottish flag over
:01:26. > :01:30.Number Ten this afternoon, which promptly fell down made the whole
:01:31. > :01:32.thing feel a little bit of an episode of excruciating satire, not
:01:33. > :01:36.a considered approach episode of excruciating satire, not
:01:37. > :01:39.the break up of our 300-year-old union. Tonight the Prime Minister
:01:40. > :01:43.has penned passionate plea to the Scots in an article to be published
:01:44. > :01:48.in tomorrow's Daily Mail, he says "our message is simple, we want you
:01:49. > :01:52.to stay". Well our political editor is here. Tell us more about this
:01:53. > :01:56.article, this message. This is the vision thing, this is campaign that
:01:57. > :02:00.has been criticised for being too technocratic, too much about
:02:01. > :02:03.Alastair Darling, a former Chancellor, telling the Scottish
:02:04. > :02:06.people risk, risk, risk, that is all people should think about. Now we
:02:07. > :02:10.are starting to see from David Cameron in the Daily Mail tomorrow
:02:11. > :02:15.an emotional argument about what the two countries have achieved
:02:16. > :02:18.together. He talks about defeating fascism as Scottish and English,
:02:19. > :02:22.people together, the Scottish enlightenment. These are things lots
:02:23. > :02:26.of his people have wanted him to talk about but he has felt inhibited
:02:27. > :02:29.to do so. Now we are getting more of the emotional thing. The other thing
:02:30. > :02:32.is you have this is about the Scottish people first and foremost,
:02:33. > :02:35.but it is also about David Cameron's people back in London that think he
:02:36. > :02:39.hasn't done enough to save the union. Briefly, does it look like
:02:40. > :02:42.panic, is it really panic? I think there is a sense that this campaign
:02:43. > :02:46.has not gone as the three main party leaders in Westminster would have
:02:47. > :02:51.liked. Of course the message from David Cameron will only work if the
:02:52. > :02:55.three leaders of the main UK parties can actually get a fair hearing from
:02:56. > :02:59.voters in Scotland if they still want to listen. Emily has been in
:03:00. > :03:03.Edinburgh. This is the Better Together
:03:04. > :03:08.campaign, a joint appearance by the three party leaders, and this is
:03:09. > :03:13.what they are not doing. I'm certainly not panics, not panicking,
:03:14. > :03:16.not panicking! That is good, David Cameron, Nick Clegg and Ed Miliband
:03:17. > :03:19.are certainly not panicking either, that is why Ed Miliband has
:03:20. > :03:23.encouraged every British town to wave a saltire. The one at Downing
:03:24. > :03:27.Street seemed to need a little encouragement all of its own. They
:03:28. > :03:30.are all coming up here tomorrow, abandoning PMQs to do so. The
:03:31. > :03:34.Westminster parties have set out a plan to offer more powers to
:03:35. > :03:37.Scotland, income tax flexibility will be one. We have all agreed
:03:38. > :03:41.there should be powers over income tax, we have all agreed there should
:03:42. > :03:44.go more welfare devolved to the Scottish Parliament, we have also
:03:45. > :03:47.all agreed some of the things we need to leave out. We have all
:03:48. > :03:50.agreed that actually our businesses in Scotland don't want to see
:03:51. > :03:53.different rates of corporation tax both sides of the border. You can
:03:54. > :03:59.see there are broad themes developing here, but we want to
:04:00. > :04:02.involve civic Scotland too, this isn't owned by us but Scotland. It
:04:03. > :04:05.is a way for Scotland to shape powers in the
:04:06. > :04:10.is a way for Scotland to shape away from the UK. With another poll
:04:11. > :04:15.out showing the two sides neck and neck, minus the undecided the yes
:04:16. > :04:19.campaign was in good complete over in Parliament Square supporters had
:04:20. > :04:23.found any conceivable European language to try to convince voter
:04:24. > :04:27.the EU membership would be safe in their hands. The language working
:04:28. > :04:34.wonders in their campaign is one that demonises Westminster.
:04:35. > :04:38.The yes examine is characterised as being the emotionup. The one that
:04:39. > :04:45.says "if you love Scotland set her free". There is another element,
:04:46. > :04:50.Alex Salmond is doing in Scotland what Nigel Farage does in Britain,
:04:51. > :04:53.give a sense of being anti-politics and anti-Westminster, they are all
:04:54. > :05:01.the same only we are offering something different. Your campaign
:05:02. > :05:05.has used the language of love of Scotland but hatred of Westminster?
:05:06. > :05:09.In Scotland there is contempt, in the speeches I have made in
:05:10. > :05:12.Newcastle, Manchester and Carlyle, one thing was absolutely clear,
:05:13. > :05:15.there is a huge distrust of Westminster and Westminster
:05:16. > :05:19.politician, you don't need polls to tell you that, although the distrust
:05:20. > :05:23.in the polling figures is spectacular, but you take the three
:05:24. > :05:27.unionists party on offer today, their collective distrust amongst
:05:28. > :05:30.the Scottish people according to a poll is minus 100, that is
:05:31. > :05:35.extraordinary. There is a contempt across the country for Westminster
:05:36. > :05:41.practices and politicians, they have no credibility left. This is Craig
:05:42. > :05:45.Miller, a working-class Edinburgh suburb and now a heartland of the
:05:46. > :05:50.yes vote. Where once they voted Labour, now they seem to have
:05:51. > :05:54.switched over or off from. From those we have talked to today there
:05:55. > :05:58.is not a lot of trust for any of the parties, and yet they still have a
:05:59. > :06:01.yearning to see an independent Scotland flourish. We have always
:06:02. > :06:06.been ruled by England, I would like to see us being our own country.
:06:07. > :06:10.William Smith used to vote Labour, he doesn't now. He tells me he as
:06:11. > :06:14.disabled, cared for by his wife and he's looking to the yes vote to
:06:15. > :06:22.improve his lot. Voting Labour is just giving them another vote. I'm
:06:23. > :06:25.not going to do that, I'm all for independence for myself and the
:06:26. > :06:28.whole area is for independence. If there was something that the Better
:06:29. > :06:33.Together, the no vote put on the table, like new powers for Scotland,
:06:34. > :06:35.or they said well let you look at income tax and sort out that, is
:06:36. > :06:41.there anything that could change your mind now? No, nothing could
:06:42. > :06:47.change my mind, just voting yes. For a long time the yes campaign had
:06:48. > :06:54.struggled to attract female voters, the latest poll suggests that is
:06:55. > :06:57.closing. April Prince William has followed the campaign -- April has
:06:58. > :07:01.followed the campaign closely. I don't like the way the country is
:07:02. > :07:04.being run at the moment. It should certainly be fairer, I don't agree
:07:05. > :07:08.with the bedroom tax they have introduced, I think that Scotland
:07:09. > :07:11.could do well and prosper with its own revenue that is we have. What do
:07:12. > :07:15.you think will decide you? I think it will be yes, but I want it to be
:07:16. > :07:18.a no, because I want to see Match of the Day on a Saturday. We spoke to
:07:19. > :07:24.about 20 people in this neighbourhood only one person, a
:07:25. > :07:27.Polish immigrant, told me they were voting for the Better Together
:07:28. > :07:31.campaign. Their work is cut out for them over the next ten days. The
:07:32. > :07:35.question of why they failed to offer any exciting new powers much earlier
:07:36. > :07:38.or even include them as an option on the ballot paper will haunt them.
:07:39. > :07:43.One thing is clear though, Scotland will never be the same again.
:07:44. > :07:47.Whatever happens next week the status quo is no longer an option.
:07:48. > :07:51.If Scotland votes yes it goes independent. If it votes no, well it
:07:52. > :07:56.still gets more independence. And anyone who thinks that the story
:07:57. > :08:01.ends here in Scotland is sorely mistaken. The genie, it seems, is
:08:02. > :08:05.out of the bottle, and that growing appetite for devolution will happen
:08:06. > :08:10.all over the UK. It looks like it is here to stay.
:08:11. > :08:14.As Emily said, whatever Scottish voters vote for, they will end up
:08:15. > :08:17.with either independence, their own country, or more control of their
:08:18. > :08:21.own affairs at the Scottish Parliament. But where does that
:08:22. > :08:30.leave the other constituent parts of what would be a rather dis-United
:08:31. > :08:34.Kingdom. This is such a conundrum? One expert described it to me as a
:08:35. > :08:37.constitutional bomb about to go off because the consequences are so many
:08:38. > :08:41.we can't get our heads around them. Scotland will get more powers,
:08:42. > :08:45.whatever happens. But where does that leave Westminster? We can show
:08:46. > :08:52.you the problem, you have 650 MPs in the House of Commons, of them 59 are
:08:53. > :08:56.Scottish MPs, we break it down, you have 40 Labour, 11 Liberal
:08:57. > :09:00.Democrats, six SNP, one poor lonely Tory and so on. These MPs in
:09:01. > :09:06.Scotland can vote in the Commons chamber on issues that don't affect
:09:07. > :09:10.their constituents, casual observers of politics will know it is the West
:09:11. > :09:18.Lothian Question, it is not academic any more, we have to get our heads
:09:19. > :09:23.around it. Labour stands to gain from arrangement. Even the most
:09:24. > :09:27.senior figures are worried about it. We have seen a number of changes to
:09:28. > :09:32.the constitutional issues in the UK, many of which have been great for
:09:33. > :09:34.areas affected. But we need to have a constitutional convention, all
:09:35. > :09:39.three parties should be committed to that. To look at the overall
:09:40. > :09:43.arrangements in the UK. The situation of England and the region,
:09:44. > :09:48.decentralising power away from London and the south-east, and
:09:49. > :09:51.reinvigourating the politics to go beyond the scandals of recent years
:09:52. > :09:54.and move forward. Fascinating to hear such a strong message from Jack
:09:55. > :09:58.McConnell, a former First Minister himself, this is serious? Drastic
:09:59. > :10:01.ideas are being considered left right and centre. One idea is the
:10:02. > :10:05.English parliament, you would have a Scottish Parliament and down south
:10:06. > :10:09.you would have to have another body, called the English parliament, it
:10:10. > :10:13.could be in Coventry and Doncaster, I don't know where, but English MPs
:10:14. > :10:15.would talk about English laws. The problem is you would
:10:16. > :10:18.would talk about English laws. The some kind of UK parliament where all
:10:19. > :10:22.that joins us would be discussed who is more important the person leading
:10:23. > :10:25.the UK parliament or the person on the English parliament. There is
:10:26. > :10:28.problems with that one. The next one is the idea the Conservatives
:10:29. > :10:33.favoured, English votes for English laws. We earlier spoke to Lord
:10:34. > :10:37.Bakeer who did a lot of work for the Conservatives on it. He favours
:10:38. > :10:47.splitting business into two types in the Commons. I think the building of
:10:48. > :10:51.the House of Commons is suited to this, the English members deal with
:10:52. > :10:55.on Monday, Tuesday and Fridays dealing with English matters, and
:10:56. > :10:59.Wednesday and Thursday dealing with matters not devolved, like defence,
:11:00. > :11:05.War and Peace, the currency, NATO, Europe. That sounds sensible, lots
:11:06. > :11:09.of us work shifts? Road to parliament is a problem. There is a
:11:10. > :11:13.more profound problem than the breezy way described there. If you
:11:14. > :11:17.have English-only MPs voting on certain days, this would probably be
:11:18. > :11:19.likely to favour a Conservative administration, and on Wednesday and
:11:20. > :11:22.Thursday we would have all of them coming together and you would be
:11:23. > :11:26.likely to have a Labour Party that is able to get through a majority,
:11:27. > :11:29.loosely speaking. What you are having on different days of the week
:11:30. > :11:32.different administration, an Education Secretary for the Tories
:11:33. > :11:39.on Monday and Tuesday and another one for Labour on the Wednesday and
:11:40. > :11:42.Thursday. To my mind that is quite complicated. John Redwood is shaking
:11:43. > :11:45.his head and we will explain why later.
:11:46. > :11:48.We will hear from John Redwood later, a supporter of an English
:11:49. > :11:52.parliament later. Do you get a sense that the
:11:53. > :11:56.Government itself has even started to get its head around a spaghetti
:11:57. > :11:59.of what the options might be? We have heard talks about the
:12:00. > :12:02.Conservative idea, it is in their manifesto, the Liberal Democrats are
:12:03. > :12:06.absolute constitutional geeks and all in clover today because they
:12:07. > :12:11.have ideas. What it involves is you would have massive decentralisation
:12:12. > :12:15.down to cities. It would mean you could have more Scotland but cities
:12:16. > :12:18.too. So when they meet in Westminster or wherever there
:12:19. > :12:23.wouldn't be disparity in their powers. Nick Clegg today did suggest
:12:24. > :12:28.at the same time as the new powers announced for Scotland some clarity
:12:29. > :12:31.over what to do with Westminster. As suggested, John Redwood has been
:12:32. > :12:35.here nodding and alternatively shaking his head through that, and
:12:36. > :12:38.Peter Hain for Labour is also here, they have been taking a look at the
:12:39. > :12:43.issue. John Redwood, if Scotland votes no, they get extra powers,
:12:44. > :12:46.that West Lothian Question becomes more acute. What should happen in
:12:47. > :12:51.simple terms? We have lobsided devolution and it would be even more
:12:52. > :12:54.lob sided if we just gave more powers to Scotland. We want fair
:12:55. > :12:57.devolution, I would say all the powers devolved to the Scottish
:12:58. > :13:01.Parliament in Edinburgh should be devolved to the English parliament
:13:02. > :13:05.in Westminster. We are happy to do both jobs. It should be devolved to
:13:06. > :13:08.the Welsh Assembly in Wales and it should be fair, I don't think we
:13:09. > :13:12.should have first and second class devolution for Scotland and Wales,
:13:13. > :13:16.and no devolution for England. You know the one thing I didn't disagree
:13:17. > :13:21.with was we don't need two education secretaries. There would be an
:13:22. > :13:24.English Education Secretary in the English parliament, but there
:13:25. > :13:27.wouldn't be a union Education Secretary because there is a
:13:28. > :13:31.Scottish and Welsh Education Secretary. He's right isn't he? It
:13:32. > :13:35.would be even more farcical to carry on as we are with Scottish MPs
:13:36. > :13:38.having a say over matters that don't affect their constituent, because
:13:39. > :13:44.there would be fewer decision about Scotland taken at Westminster? The
:13:45. > :13:47.status quo is dead. Whatever happens next Thursday, what we need to do, I
:13:48. > :13:52.hope there will be a no vote. I expect there will be. But what we
:13:53. > :13:55.need to do in that event is move to what Britain has really been going
:13:56. > :14:01.towards, which is a federal structure. Now that should have more
:14:02. > :14:04.powers for Wales, more powers for Scotland and more powers for
:14:05. > :14:08.England, which is the most centralised part of the UK now.
:14:09. > :14:12.Highly centralised in London. And England, with the exception of
:14:13. > :14:16.London, should have, and by the way Ed Miliband made an important speech
:14:17. > :14:21.about devolution to city regions, or regions of England. You could see
:14:22. > :14:24.for example Manchester City region wanting powers devolved and the east
:14:25. > :14:28.of England wanting it. You are shaking your head now? It has to be
:14:29. > :14:35.devolution England, England is my country and we want the same respect
:14:36. > :14:39.as Scotland. We want an English parliament in London because it is
:14:40. > :14:44.the capital city and we will govern England in the whole way. I
:14:45. > :14:48.disagree. Would would you say you are Welsh, I'm speaking for England
:14:49. > :14:52.and we want our own English parliament. I'm also a strong
:14:53. > :14:55.believer in Britain. What we need is a federal structure based
:14:56. > :15:01.constitutionally in Westminster. It is a nonsense for example that our
:15:02. > :15:04.existing parliament in Westminster could in principle abolish the
:15:05. > :15:09.Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly, it would never happen, but
:15:10. > :15:12.it is a constitutional nonsense that possibility exists constitutionally
:15:13. > :15:15.you need to design a federal structure, I don't think most people
:15:16. > :15:18.in England want to be run from London. I think the north-east and
:15:19. > :15:24.parts of Yorkshire, Cornwall and so on want their own power, and then
:15:25. > :15:27.you restructure. We tested this in your referendum and we lost? It was
:15:28. > :15:31.on flawed model in which there were no serious powers and people thought
:15:32. > :15:36.they were being sold a pup and they were. Politicians time and time over
:15:37. > :15:40.the years suggest power being held more closely to communities. You
:15:41. > :15:44.referred to the referendum in the north-east, offering a regional
:15:45. > :15:49.assembly that was overwhelmingly beaten as a prosal. It was a Mickey
:15:50. > :15:54.-- proposal. It was a Mickey Mouse one. You didn't say that at the
:15:55. > :15:56.time. They don't want local mayors or Police Commissioners, and time
:15:57. > :16:01.and time again people don't turn out? We want an English parliament,
:16:02. > :16:05.Peter, it is simple. I think what needs to happen if we are talking
:16:06. > :16:09.about Westminster, we need to have Westminster restructured so that
:16:10. > :16:14.English MPs have more of a say over English law, but I don't think you
:16:15. > :16:21.want first and second-class MPs. You wouldn't stop Scottish or Welsh or
:16:22. > :16:26.Northern Irish MPs facing that sort of structure? I would say, and the
:16:27. > :16:30.former clerk of the House looked at this, in the case of English laws,
:16:31. > :16:35.when they went into committee the detailed work that was done on them
:16:36. > :16:37.should be English-only MPs, when it comes to the big votes on the floor
:16:38. > :16:42.of the Commons it should be everyone. We are second class then,
:16:43. > :16:48.England wants the same as Scotland, so if Scotland can make her own laws
:16:49. > :16:52.England will make her own laws. You want a centralised elite in England
:16:53. > :16:55.running the whole of England, I want power devolved. You are Welsh, I am
:16:56. > :16:58.answering illusion, I want my country to have the same as
:16:59. > :17:03.Scotland. I can have an opinion about it. I want to see all of
:17:04. > :17:08.England represented in the English parliament. What about the other
:17:09. > :17:10.countries, you are in the unusual country of having been Secretary of
:17:11. > :17:17.State for Wales and also Northern Ireland. What happens at Stormont?
:17:18. > :17:23.What happens in Cardiff, is something about to be unleashed, it
:17:24. > :17:26.appears Scotland overnight is being offered a rapidly compressed
:17:27. > :17:29.timetable of power being handed over and Cardiff and Stormont sit back
:17:30. > :17:32.and watch? It is a very fair question, I'm in favour of much more
:17:33. > :17:37.devolution to Wales. I don't think you can give all the goodies to
:17:38. > :17:42.Scotland, because there has been a seismic change or rumbling there. I
:17:43. > :17:46.think you have got to make sure Wales gets proper devolution, beyond
:17:47. > :17:52.where we are taking it now, I think Northern Ireland the same. If we
:17:53. > :17:56.don't do this, if the no vote wins this time as I hope and think it
:17:57. > :17:59.will, if you don't do this the next time it will be Scottish
:18:00. > :18:04.independence. Because I think people are fed up with the Westminster
:18:05. > :18:09.class, not just in Scotland, but elsewhere. In other parts of England
:18:10. > :18:13.and Wales as well, and they want big change and they want more say. It
:18:14. > :18:16.might be rather a shame for those voters in Scotland, still about
:18:17. > :18:20.half, who want to stay with the union, that it is only now that
:18:21. > :18:24.Westminster politicians have actually been waking up to what they
:18:25. > :18:28.want. John Redwood, if the union is lost, many of your colleagues are
:18:29. > :18:32.clear privately that in their view the Prime Minister will have to
:18:33. > :18:36.resign. Is there a chance of that? No, he has made very clear that he
:18:37. > :18:41.will not resign, he had to do this, he had to offer the referendum, it
:18:42. > :18:44.wasn't in his gift to say no. Once Scotland had elected a majority
:18:45. > :18:47.Scottish nationalist Government wanting independence, the only fair
:18:48. > :18:51.thing to do is put it to the people. It is not his fault if it is lost, I
:18:52. > :18:54.hope it is won for keeping the union together. If it is lost, that is the
:18:55. > :18:58.result in Scotland and we shouldn't regard it as a commentary on him.
:18:59. > :19:01.Thank you very much for coming in. The leaders of the UK parties might
:19:02. > :19:05.have The leaders of the UK parties might
:19:06. > :19:09.the need to campaign if they want to keep the union. One of their bete
:19:10. > :19:14.noires though has been at it for many months. George Galloway,
:19:15. > :19:18.formally of the Labour Party, now the Respect Party MP and celebrity
:19:19. > :19:23.Big Brother contestant, although that is best forgotten maybe, has
:19:24. > :19:29.been packing out Town Halls around Scotland for months, urging voters
:19:30. > :19:42.to say "naw", we went to see him in Paisley on the outskirts of Glasgow.
:19:43. > :19:51.Paisley Town Hall hasn't hosted anything this big since it
:19:52. > :19:58.celebrated the life of Gerry Rafferty, but could he persuade the
:19:59. > :20:03.mainly Labour audience to say no. Alex Fergsuon talked about "squeaky
:20:04. > :20:09.bum time", we are in that now. Oust ed by Labour and Respect MP, he's
:20:10. > :20:13.fresh from a physical take, allegedly for his stance against
:20:14. > :20:17.Israel. Just over a week ago I was lying on a London street with broken
:20:18. > :20:27.ribs and a dislocated jaw and I'm still here in Paisley tonight. For
:20:28. > :20:36.no other reason than I want to insist that by voting no it doesn't
:20:37. > :20:39.make you less Scottish. # You won't get me
:20:40. > :20:47.# I'm part of the union # Till the day I die.
:20:48. > :20:52.Earlier Newsnight sought out George Galloway back stage, the Just Say
:20:53. > :20:57.Naw tour is his attempt to add a spark. A year ago I realised that
:20:58. > :21:02.the people running the official no campaign and the structure across
:21:03. > :21:06.class and political nature of the structure of the no campaign was
:21:07. > :21:14.seriously flawed. I have been right, I'm sorry to say. I have been right
:21:15. > :21:16.all along. That is unlike you? I momentarily pause because I have
:21:17. > :21:21.been right about most important things. People don't automatically
:21:22. > :21:26.go to Galloway for humility, but for many on this he speaks the truth.
:21:27. > :21:32.The Better Together campaign has spent ?4 million and I haven't seen
:21:33. > :21:39.anything good that they have done. What do you think gives you the
:21:40. > :21:45.right to come up to Scotland and say why we should not vote against
:21:46. > :21:49.independence? Did Kenny Dalglish become English when he went to play
:21:50. > :21:52.for Liverpool, what kind of mentality is this. You have actually
:21:53. > :21:59.been speaking in this meeting nearly as long as me. Galloway junior at
:22:00. > :22:03.eight weeks old was oblivious to the fuss, we brought along Mr Ali and
:22:04. > :22:06.his son, George Galloway has appealed for many British Muslims
:22:07. > :22:12.but these two are committed yes voters. Most of it was just ranting
:22:13. > :22:17.and raving, I respect George great deal and some of his stuff about
:22:18. > :22:25.certain things was amazing, now he was just scaring the yes voters.
:22:26. > :22:29.Book signing and public speaking are appetite-inducing so, what better
:22:30. > :22:37.end to his 26th performance than a meal at Mr Ali's restaurant. This is
:22:38. > :22:44.Glasgow institution, in the 1960s a bus driver complained his chicken
:22:45. > :22:47.curry was too dry as Mr Ali's father was eating tomato soup, history was
:22:48. > :22:53.made. There was some left in the tin and when the curry came back that
:22:54. > :22:56.was mixed together and the chicken tikka masala was born. And has
:22:57. > :23:01.become our national dish? Absolutely. On both sides of the
:23:02. > :23:07.border, don't forget that. I'm trying to persuade you. We will vote
:23:08. > :23:11.with our hearts I'm afraid. Does your head say something different?
:23:12. > :23:20.My head always says something different. But sometimes we overrule
:23:21. > :23:25.our heads. We are Scots. Over curry we talk about the inclusiveness of
:23:26. > :23:31.Scottish patriotism. When there is family we had being wear kilts and
:23:32. > :23:39.we are proud to wear kilts because we feel that we can be Scottish and
:23:40. > :23:42.where Pakistani, and we can show that. We feel that we can fuse the
:23:43. > :23:47.two together. They are not different. Does that play into why
:23:48. > :23:51.you are voting yes? Absolutely. You can have all these good things but
:23:52. > :23:56.without breaking up the country. That's what I'm hoping people will
:23:57. > :24:03.reach that conclusion. Thank you darling. I feel we are not breaking
:24:04. > :24:09.up but we are evolving. If you went home, God forbid and told your wife
:24:10. > :24:14.tonight, we're not getting divorced, we're evolving, I'm moving out, you
:24:15. > :24:20.are moving out we're going to divide our assets, she would realise it was
:24:21. > :24:29.a divorce not an evolution. Yes, she's a no voter, I'm a yes voter!
:24:30. > :24:34.Women less keen on gambles. If emotion has been lacking on the no
:24:35. > :24:39.side it looms large around this table as Mr Galloway invokes the RAF
:24:40. > :24:46.heros of World War ll. We did it together and nobody asked whether
:24:47. > :24:50.the pilots flying above were from Suffolk or Sutherland, or which
:24:51. > :24:58.accent they spoke with, they were just us defending us. You have to
:24:59. > :25:03.think what's best for us? Give dad my regards, God bless you. Despite
:25:04. > :25:08.the respect on both sides, this is one potential convert lost. I'm
:25:09. > :25:13.going to the smoking lounge! The tour though goes on.
:25:14. > :25:17.Disagreements but still friends, but they might not get to keep the
:25:18. > :25:21.pound, but they would get to keep the same. An independent Scotland
:25:22. > :25:25.would still be called Scotland, but the remnants of the UK, what would
:25:26. > :25:35.that country be called? We have a few ideas.
:25:36. > :25:37.At the moment when discussing this constitutional upheaval,
:25:38. > :25:51.commentators have taken to calling the non-Scotland bits of our state
:25:52. > :25:57."r UK" not exactly a keeper. When Labour changed they called it new
:25:58. > :26:04.Labour, but what about New Britain, that is taken by Papua New Guinea.
:26:05. > :26:11.It could be the former United Kingdom, like the former Yugoslavia,
:26:12. > :26:14.maybe not. We need to brain storm this, in the epicentre of
:26:15. > :26:19.Britishness we have John from the Now Show. Where do we start renaming
:26:20. > :26:22.what was the UK? We have to look to the modern world. This is the future
:26:23. > :26:27.and we have to think about this in the long-term. The way to do it is,
:26:28. > :26:33.think about what's happening f it happens is what I'm calling a
:26:34. > :26:36.conscious uncoupling. Think of it as Chris Martin and Gwnyeth, it is
:26:37. > :26:41.essentially us parting, all we need to do is right it on a
:26:42. > :26:45.self-righteous blog that is happening, ask the media to respect
:26:46. > :26:49.our privacy, have the conscious uncoupling, we are still friends but
:26:50. > :26:54.we no longer are together. What if it turns out that Scotland has been
:26:55. > :26:59.sleeping with Norway! There is that whole, was it once? Was it a long
:27:00. > :27:04.standing thing? Was it a full blown affair? Were they drunk, Scotland
:27:05. > :27:18.probably! But maybe rebranding could have its advantages, many non-Brits
:27:19. > :27:24.seem to struggle with our complex lamencatu re. All of us are
:27:25. > :27:28.disturbed by the crashing of the English embassy, the embassy of the
:27:29. > :27:32.United Kingdom in Iran. Isn't Scotland like a bit of England? No
:27:33. > :27:37.it is not. Britain I mean. The British Council has even made a
:27:38. > :27:41.video to help them out. Great Britain is a geographical term, it
:27:42. > :27:47.is a big island with Scotland, England and Wales on it. It is
:27:48. > :27:51.complicated. I can see that. Why can't we bring in the green of the
:27:52. > :27:55.Welsh flag? Unpicking this complexity sounds like a job for
:27:56. > :27:57.Welsh flag? Unpicking this rebranding expert? A lot of
:27:58. > :28:02.organisations have moved to initial, when you look at the initials of the
:28:03. > :28:05.three countries, the three legacy countries, England, Wales and
:28:06. > :28:13.Northern Ireland, EWN doesn't really work, it doesn't really resonate. It
:28:14. > :28:20.doesn't say much. But what if you play with those, NEW, "new", a new
:28:21. > :28:25.name for a new country, new United Kingdom, a country that looks to the
:28:26. > :28:28.future a country that is actually talking about tomorrow rather than
:28:29. > :28:41.yesterday, that leaves Scotland with its name, Scotland.
:28:42. > :28:48.Unfamiliar cultural times then. The real name, if this happens, will be
:28:49. > :28:52.probably the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
:28:53. > :28:59.Sounding rather like a familiar tune played on an unexpected instrument.
:29:00. > :29:03.Whatever the name, if Scotland leaves, what impact will that have
:29:04. > :29:07.on the sense of Britishness for the people who remain in the union.
:29:08. > :29:10.Union? With us are Vicky Featherstone, the Artistic Director
:29:11. > :29:15.of the Royal Court Theatre, who lived in Scotland as a young child,
:29:16. > :29:19.and again when she set up and ran the National Theatre of Scotland.
:29:20. > :29:23.And the historian, Tom Holland, who has written a letter signed by 200
:29:24. > :29:27.cultural luminaries asking Scotland to stay.
:29:28. > :29:31.Thank you for being here. On the name, Tom what would you call the
:29:32. > :29:35.rest of the UK? I guess it would be the United Kingdom of England, Wales
:29:36. > :29:39.and Northern Ireland. If Northern Ireland then joined the Republic of
:29:40. > :29:44.Ireland, we would be England and Wales, like Trinidad and Tobago. We
:29:45. > :29:49.may end up as Wessex and Northumbria, who knows. Why for you
:29:50. > :29:53.does it make a difference to your identity if Scotland chooses
:29:54. > :29:57.independence? Because although I'm very proud to be English, I like
:29:58. > :30:03.being English, I very much enjoy being British. I enjoy the tension
:30:04. > :30:08.and the sense of irony and perspective that gives me. If
:30:09. > :30:12.Scotland leaves a crucial part of my identity will go. I will find it
:30:13. > :30:21.very upsetting. What do you make of that? I really I'm pro-yes, I think
:30:22. > :30:25.that when I moved to Scotland I really felt I was British. I felt my
:30:26. > :30:29.liberal attitudes meant British was a positive thing and I wouldn't say
:30:30. > :30:34.I was English, I was there for six months and I had to come to terms
:30:35. > :30:36.with the fact that we were two very different countries, two brilliant
:30:37. > :30:40.countries but different and I was English and what did that mean. But
:30:41. > :30:43.you weren't both? I definitely wasn't both. I have a huge
:30:44. > :30:51.attachment of Scotland and proud of my time there. But for me Scotland
:30:52. > :30:55.had an infantalised relationship with England for many years, and now
:30:56. > :30:59.it is time to cut loose and be confident. Even though you have
:31:00. > :31:03.worked successfully in Scotland you don't feel it is part of your
:31:04. > :31:10.identity in any way? It is entirely part of my identity, I lived in
:31:11. > :31:14.India as a child and speak fluent Germany and I'm multiferocious in my
:31:15. > :31:18.identity. I don't feel nostalgic for a past. I feel it is really
:31:19. > :31:22.important these things can coexist. If you listen to Vicky, why is it
:31:23. > :31:27.anything to do with you, with the best will in the world? Because at
:31:28. > :31:31.the moment the Scots and the English and Northern Irish are all citizens
:31:32. > :31:34.of the same country. It seems to me that Britishness is a wonderful
:31:35. > :31:38.thing. One of the many wonderful things about Britishness is we don't
:31:39. > :31:42.talk about it and we are a bit embarrassed about it. The time has
:31:43. > :31:48.come to blow its trumpet and say to me what is impressive and wonderful
:31:49. > :31:51.about the union of England and Scotland is until the 7th century
:31:52. > :31:56.they were enemies tearing chunks out of each other, even into the 17th
:31:57. > :32:01.century they were invading each other's countries. They came
:32:02. > :32:04.together and miraculously they discovered, although they were very
:32:05. > :32:07.different countries they were very similar and their different
:32:08. > :32:13.traditions and values and ideals were compatible. The merging of the
:32:14. > :32:17.ideals created something wonderful, the Industrial Revolution, forging
:32:18. > :32:22.the enlightenment, beat fascism and forge the welfare state. I hope and
:32:23. > :32:25.believe what is happening now in Scotland with the independence
:32:26. > :32:29.referendum if it is a no will super charge the rest of the UK and the
:32:30. > :32:34.Scots will play the role they have always played which is to energise
:32:35. > :32:38.and revitalise the whole of Britain. When you listen to Tom talk so
:32:39. > :32:41.passionately about that, does it mean anything to you? It is an
:32:42. > :32:46.interesting historical perspective, this is about change and change is a
:32:47. > :32:49.good thing. If Scotland is set free and goes the way that many people
:32:50. > :32:52.are talking that it may go I think it is a really important moment for
:32:53. > :32:55.England. It is a really important moment for to us think about what is
:32:56. > :33:00.English identity that has very negative conotations in the past and
:33:01. > :33:03.to really become proud of that. Wouldn't the departure upset that
:33:04. > :33:07.balance, that cocktail that Tom has talked about? Yes, the cocktail
:33:08. > :33:10.absolutely definitely would be upset, but it is not a particularly
:33:11. > :33:14.healthy cocktail at the moment. And I think it is a very good
:33:15. > :33:19.opportunity for us to think of different ways. If we could change
:33:20. > :33:24.the metaphor, Salmond says if Scotland goes England will lose a
:33:25. > :33:28.grumpy lodger. That is not true. Scotland basically built this
:33:29. > :33:33.country. The Scots had a crucial role in it, when the yes campaigners
:33:34. > :33:37.talk about Westminster, what they are talking about essentially is the
:33:38. > :33:41.parliamentary system that Scots contributed just as much as the
:33:42. > :33:45.English and Welsh. It is the Scots who contributed to the Tory
:33:46. > :33:51.tradition, Walter Scott had a crucial role as Disraeli did. The
:33:52. > :33:55.Israel Kier Hardy is very clear. History is important and memories
:33:56. > :34:00.are important and the relationships and the friendships and the
:34:01. > :34:05.cross-cultural swirl is important. That is what the future comes from.
:34:06. > :34:08.What is very exciting is this is about democracy and people in
:34:09. > :34:11.Scotland suddenly saying our vote does matter and can matter and we
:34:12. > :34:14.can make a difference. I don't think we have felt like that in Britain
:34:15. > :34:17.for a very long time. It is about an incredible moment of an act of
:34:18. > :34:20.democracy and rembering the franchise is a revolutionary thing
:34:21. > :34:24.for us and that freedom is great. Thank you both very much indeed,
:34:25. > :34:27.that is all we have time for. This conversation will no doubt continue
:34:28. > :34:32.in the coming weeks. The results of a rather different
:34:33. > :34:38.kind of vote were released today. The shortlist of the Man Booker
:34:39. > :34:42.Prize. Although the suggestion appalled traditionalists of a
:34:43. > :34:45.sensitive disposition, this year for the first time American writers
:34:46. > :34:56.could enter. They have only captured two places on the shortlist.
:34:57. > :35:00.# Every day # I write the book
:35:01. > :35:06.Is this the best part of the literary life, not the reading, not
:35:07. > :35:12.the writing, but the launch party. In this case for the Man Booker
:35:13. > :35:17.Prize shortlist. The big talking point this year, opening the contest
:35:18. > :35:28.up to anyone writing in English. That means the Americans. Once the
:35:29. > :35:31.Man Booker Prize was the preserve of London literary circle, opened to
:35:32. > :35:35.authors from these islands and the Commonwealth. Not everyone has
:35:36. > :35:39.welcomed the rule change. I worry that the decision to include writers
:35:40. > :35:44.in English who weren't previously eligible, such as Americans, showed
:35:45. > :35:50.a lack of confidence on the part of the Man Booker Prize organisers.
:35:51. > :35:55.Hang on though there is a "but" coming? This year's prize showed
:35:56. > :36:01.they didn't need to feel that lack of confidence. The long list has UK
:36:02. > :36:05.and Commonwealth authors as does the shortlist. It is another really,
:36:06. > :36:10.really strong year. # If they ask me
:36:11. > :36:15.# I could write a book Two books by American authors have
:36:16. > :36:22.made the cut, To Rise Again at a Decent Hour by Joshua Ferris, which
:36:23. > :36:24.has been called the Catch 22 of dentistry, and We Are All Completely
:36:25. > :36:29.Beside Ourselves by Karen Jay Fowler, which has already picked up
:36:30. > :36:33.the Penn Faulkner Award for fiction and a favourite with booksellers and
:36:34. > :36:37.readers. As one of the two American judges on the panel this year, I
:36:38. > :36:41.have to say from my point of view it was never a bad thing that Americans
:36:42. > :36:47.were being admitted on to the list. Not because of jingoism or
:36:48. > :36:51.nationalism on my part, but because I want the best of the best, the
:36:52. > :36:59.very best that is being written in English today. British contenders
:37:00. > :37:09.include J by Howard Jacobson, a dark disphonian book from -- dystopian
:37:10. > :37:17.book. And How to be Both by Ali Smith. The third on the list is Neel
:37:18. > :37:23.Mukherjee with The Lives of Others, about a Bengali family. And Richard
:37:24. > :37:32.Flanagan is included for The Narrow Road to the Deep North, which tells
:37:33. > :37:39.of PoWs building the death raily. It has broad appeal the six. There are
:37:40. > :37:50.few readers who would find nothing there. There are title s on there.
:37:51. > :37:56.Not everybody will like Ali Smith's unusual approach, and not Howard
:37:57. > :38:00.Jacobson after The Finkler Question, I would like to tell them J is a
:38:01. > :38:05.different book from anything else he has written. As usual in this most
:38:06. > :38:08.gentile of prize fights. There will be almost as much contention on the
:38:09. > :38:14.contenders who didn't make it into the ring as those who have. Admirers
:38:15. > :38:18.of big-name authors like David Mitchell and Sarah Waters will feel
:38:19. > :38:23.their favourites deserved a crack at the title too. While some browse the
:38:24. > :38:26.shortlist, others run a book on it. One bookie was congratulating
:38:27. > :38:30.himself on his tipping today. The only shock for us this year was
:38:31. > :38:35.David Mitchell didn't make the cut, otherwise we had the first five of
:38:36. > :38:40.the six in the betting, all making it through to the shortlist. When we
:38:41. > :38:43.looked at the names, certainly the literary betting public looked at
:38:44. > :38:52.the names and there were strong names we thought were strong to make
:38:53. > :38:56.the shortlist to be proven right. Hang on, save some of that fizz, you
:38:57. > :39:03.are going to need it to toast the winner, who is announced next month.
:39:04. > :39:07.With us to chew over the list are Carol Birch whose novel was
:39:08. > :39:12.shortlisted for the Man Booker Prize in 2011, Erica Wagner, one of this
:39:13. > :39:16.year's all-important judges and Arifa Akbar, the literary editor of
:39:17. > :39:20.the Independent. Carol, firstly to you, when you were nominated, you
:39:21. > :39:25.know what this day feels like, did it change your life just making the
:39:26. > :39:28.list? Yes. Definitely. It was an incredible experience, it depends
:39:29. > :39:32.very much on the individual how you are going to react to it. If you are
:39:33. > :39:38.the kind of person who really likes being in the public eye, and you
:39:39. > :39:41.feel happy being interviewed and photographed it is a marvellous
:39:42. > :39:45.experience. If you are uneasy with that it is very, very stressful. For
:39:46. > :39:50.me it was a mixed bag. I wouldn't have missed it for the world but I
:39:51. > :39:54.did find it was as if, you know, you are kind of on adrenaline all the
:39:55. > :39:57.time and running on like that. It keeps you going and you are living
:39:58. > :40:02.out of a suitcase, your real life goes on hold for about, I don't
:40:03. > :40:08.know, a month or whatever it is. You do just kind of, you adapt. Were
:40:09. > :40:12.Where it counts in terms of book sales, did it make a difference? It
:40:13. > :40:16.did make a difference, it did help. It is very nice in that way. It is
:40:17. > :40:20.wonderful to be recognised, particularly when you have spent all
:40:21. > :40:28.these years sitting in a room on your own. Erica Wagner, you are a
:40:29. > :40:32.judge this year. You have lot of power over authors like Carol don't
:40:33. > :40:39.you? I suppose so. Windy call it power. I think we all have a great
:40:40. > :40:44.sense of responsibility. It is really fascinating and a remarkable
:40:45. > :40:48.task to read all of these books. It is a really difficult task, because
:40:49. > :40:54.one of the things that it remind you, and I have been a judge of the
:40:55. > :41:00.Man Booker Prize before in 2002, what you look at is really how
:41:01. > :41:05.vigorous fiction is. You are such a small group of people, a panel of
:41:06. > :41:09.six as I understand it. How can you judge definitively which is the best
:41:10. > :41:17.book. There are nearly 150 that were put forward? Yes, you can do the
:41:18. > :41:25.very best you can. You can have the most serious discussion, you can
:41:26. > :41:29.discuss each book on its merits. You can take the task absolutely
:41:30. > :41:37.seriously and feel passionate about it, which is what we all do. Are
:41:38. > :41:45.there issues with the way the Man Booker Prize and the whole fuss
:41:46. > :41:47.about prizes? I question the science behind judging selections sometimes.
:41:48. > :41:53.Take most of the prizes actually. There is a real feeling of
:41:54. > :42:03.recycling. So you know Erica no doubt that you are a brilliant
:42:04. > :42:09.Booker judge, you have done it once before, so has AC Grayling. It is
:42:10. > :42:14.the same people and the same names and that makes me think it is a bit
:42:15. > :42:19.of a closed circle of people and they are doing the rounds of the
:42:20. > :42:24.prices. There are other ways to do prizes, and others have done them
:42:25. > :42:29.differently. You get parallel panels and a big academy, and people
:42:30. > :42:35.randomly picked. I thought to the Literary Director of the prize who
:42:36. > :42:39.said this is the selection process, he goes to party like this one and
:42:40. > :42:43.somebody goes over and says what about so and so. Of course there is
:42:44. > :42:48.a advisory panel but there is a huge element of being in the room. Being
:42:49. > :42:54.in the know and in the room. What do you say about that, a kabal? I would
:42:55. > :43:02.beg to differ. One thing I would say, one of our judges this year is
:43:03. > :43:09.Stan Glazer, who is the first scientist to judge the Booker Prize.
:43:10. > :43:17.He's someone who comes right from outside the so called literary
:43:18. > :43:21.world. I'm not having a pot shot at this particular jury, you must agree
:43:22. > :43:30.it is the same names and faces. There is an attempt to bring in
:43:31. > :43:35.people like Dan. With Man Booker we saw a Downton Abbey star was brought
:43:36. > :43:41.on for the love of poetry and literature. There was efforts made.
:43:42. > :43:45.You could have an inventive approach, the Foley Prize they have
:43:46. > :43:49.large academy and pool. They have a ratings systems for the books,
:43:50. > :43:59.everything in the 100 pool votes. You have bailies. A real -- Bailey's
:44:00. > :44:02.a real reader gets involved. In terms of what is actually being
:44:03. > :44:07.judged, what books are being written right now. Carol, having looked at
:44:08. > :44:11.the list, what does it tell bus what we are reading right now and what
:44:12. > :44:15.does it tell us about culture? It is diverse and interesting. I haven't
:44:16. > :44:21.read any of them I'm not the ideal person to talk about this. There is
:44:22. > :44:27.so many books being published, it is quite a healthy literary scene at
:44:28. > :44:30.the moment There is a lot of invention, someone like Ali Smith
:44:31. > :44:41.offering two versions of the same novel. All these gloomy predictions
:44:42. > :44:43.that the November is -- novel is dead, people are doing really
:44:44. > :44:48.interesting things. We are coming to the present moment now with on-line
:44:49. > :44:50.stories and that. Erica are you seeing that, certainly some of the
:44:51. > :44:56.books on the list, there is the story of the New York dentist who
:44:57. > :45:01.has his identity stolen on-line. Is that the sign that authors are now,
:45:02. > :45:08.and maybe only now beginning to grapple with the real changes all
:45:09. > :45:12.around us? I think now those, that sense of the way we live
:45:13. > :45:19.particularly with technology. That's not something new any more. It is
:45:20. > :45:24.part of the weather. If you are writing a novel set in the present
:45:25. > :45:31.day. That will be there, however you engage with it. I think that what
:45:32. > :45:37.all of these books show and this is definitely speaking to something
:45:38. > :45:42.that was said. I think there is an amazing adventurousness on the part,
:45:43. > :45:47.not just of writers but readers too. I think readers really are willing
:45:48. > :45:54.to engage with sophisticated story telling. More adventurous perhaps
:45:55. > :45:59.than the historical look back to past, is nostalgia dead Carol? I
:46:00. > :46:02.don't think it is dead I think there is room for everything. Everything
:46:03. > :46:09.should be there, and everything should have the chance to be on that
:46:10. > :46:13.list. I would say it miss characterises historical novels to
:46:14. > :46:17.call them necessarily nostalgic. I really don't like this genre thing
:46:18. > :46:21.we have, this idea that some things are literature and some aren't. We
:46:22. > :46:28.just have good books and they can be in all the different genres. We have
:46:29. > :46:33.seen in Booker that the minute a list becomes readable, accessible,
:46:34. > :46:40.there is a lot of snotty disapproval of it. That was my year. My
:46:41. > :46:46.favourite description of Booker is Posh Bingo. Which Julia Barnes
:46:47. > :46:52.called it. We will leave you with that description of the Booker
:46:53. > :46:57.Prize, that is all we have time to do tonight. Emily will be here
:46:58. > :47:06.tomorrow night. Good night. A little mist and fog to start the
:47:07. > :47:12.day. It shouldn't last too long. Most of us looking at a pleasant day
:47:13. > :47:13.with good spells of sunshine. Light winds for most, breeze