:00:07. > :00:18.Ian Paisley has died, went from this: We say never, never, never,
:00:19. > :00:22.never... To this, in the space of a lifetime. We will recall his
:00:23. > :00:32.eventful journey and what it meant for Northern Ireland. Meanwhile in
:00:33. > :00:38.Scotland. Just last week there was an SNP council up north to get
:00:39. > :00:43.people to wave a Union Flag. It is a potent symbol when Better Together
:00:44. > :00:50.are waving the Scottish saltire, is the Union Flag now toxic north of
:00:51. > :00:57.the border. Where does Ken Loach this it is so hard to sell
:00:58. > :01:02.Britishness. Here on the ground it is not America
:01:03. > :01:09.but Iran that is running the show. And not just three their proxys, the
:01:10. > :01:24.Shia militia. It is the last night of the Newsnight Proms.
:01:25. > :01:30.Good evening, Ian Paisley, DUP leader, Dr No, Presbyterian
:01:31. > :01:34.fundamentalist, and First Minister of Northern Ireland has died at the
:01:35. > :01:40.age of 88. For more than 50 years for good or ill he made the weather
:01:41. > :01:45.in Northern Ireland with blistering, uncompromising sermons and speeches
:01:46. > :01:48.and his belief in no surrender. He denounced the Good Friday peace
:01:49. > :01:52.accord in 1998 and said there was not a snowball's chance in hell he
:01:53. > :01:55.would work with Sinn Fein unless the IRA surrendered all weapons
:01:56. > :01:58.publicly. But when the IRA did eventually disarm and renounce
:01:59. > :02:01.violence it was a short step to the moment he sat down together with
:02:02. > :02:07.Gerry Adams. Here is our political editor.
:02:08. > :02:12.We will organise massive demonstrations... Face fit for a
:02:13. > :02:17.statue, beliefs etched in granite, and some of the most powerful lungs
:02:18. > :02:29.the world might ever have heard. He was a could loss colossas. But then
:02:30. > :02:36.he became a yes man. I wonder why people hate me, I'm just a nice man.
:02:37. > :02:43.The man himself knew he had divided a nation. Paisley became a preacher
:02:44. > :02:49.at 16 and set up the Free prise by tearian Church by 25, maturing into
:02:50. > :02:52.a well known Protestant firebrand. Paisley's support grew and
:02:53. > :02:57.membership of his support doubled when he clashed with the Catholic
:02:58. > :03:04.civil rights movement and imprisoned in 1968. Election to the Stormont
:03:05. > :03:08.and Westminster parliaments in 1970 followed, and in 1971 he created the
:03:09. > :03:12.Democratic Unionist Party, finally the famous Paisley position was
:03:13. > :03:17.crystallising. There would be no surrender, not an inch, to those
:03:18. > :03:22.crystallising. There would be no wanting Irish Government in Northern
:03:23. > :03:33.Ireland. Where do the terrorists return to for sanctuary, to the
:03:34. > :03:44.Irish Republic. And yet Mrs Thatcher tells us that Republic must have
:03:45. > :03:49.some say in our province. We say never, never, never, never.
:03:50. > :03:53.(Cheering) In the eyes of some, his denunciations of terror were
:03:54. > :04:00.undermined when he appeared to flirt with extremism himself. He always
:04:01. > :04:05.denied this. The RUC tell me that I am breaking the law because I put a
:04:06. > :04:16.red beret on my head with an Ulster badge on it, it is time we stood up
:04:17. > :04:22.and told the RUC... In 1998 the Good Friday Agreement was struck, despite
:04:23. > :04:27.opposition from Paisley, he vilified David Trimable for signing up. This
:04:28. > :04:32.paper will destroy the union. In the last two-and-a-half years I have
:04:33. > :04:36.been giving sense. After the IRA disarmed in 2007, Paisley stunned
:04:37. > :04:41.the world, he went into Government with former IRA commander, Martin
:04:42. > :04:45.McGuinness. I think his contribution to peace in Northern Ireland has
:04:46. > :04:49.been immense. I mean he was the person who ultimately took the
:04:50. > :04:55.decision, with a lot of courage to make it happen and the man who, in a
:04:56. > :04:59.sense, was the person famous for saying no, will find his place in
:05:00. > :05:03.history for having said yes. He said yes and with a chortle, he and
:05:04. > :05:08.Martin McGuinness were often seen laughing together and were known as
:05:09. > :05:11.the Chuckle Brothers. Some say an illness had focussed his mind before
:05:12. > :05:15.death. Others that the violence in Northern Ireland changed so he
:05:16. > :05:22.changed his mind. It was one of the best things that ever happened. We
:05:23. > :05:25.still face our challenge, but I will always treasure the year that he and
:05:26. > :05:29.I were in the office of First Minister and Deputy First Minister
:05:30. > :05:35.together. We were once opponents but today I have lost a friend. But some
:05:36. > :05:43.of his old adversaries don't quite see it like that. I think that
:05:44. > :05:47.whatever about the fact that people speak well about people after their
:05:48. > :05:50.death. It seems to me any assessment of Ian Paisley and his role in
:05:51. > :05:55.Northern Ireland has to be a negative one. Mr Paisley is a man
:05:56. > :06:00.who has injected booster shots of sectarian venom to the body politic
:06:01. > :06:06.in Northern Ireland, right from a period from the early to mid-60s to
:06:07. > :06:10.30 more years, in so far as he was clearing up the mess towards the end
:06:11. > :06:15.of his life. He was clearing up a mess to which some measure had been
:06:16. > :06:19.of his own making. Paisley makes the most bellicose defend of the union,
:06:20. > :06:25.passed away in a week where the union faces its most serious
:06:26. > :06:28.challenge. There is uncertainty, our passionate pro-union sentiments are
:06:29. > :06:32.they dying away too? Observers say Ian Paisley began life wanting to
:06:33. > :06:39.lead a church, a political party and become Prime Minister. He was
:06:40. > :06:44.ambitious and he got there. But many wish the no-man who eventually said
:06:45. > :06:50.yes, had said "maybe" a little earlier in his life.
:06:51. > :06:54.We will hear more about that later in the programme.
:06:55. > :07:00.Earlier this evening I spoke to the deputy leader of the DUP party,
:07:01. > :07:03.Nigel Dodds, I asked him whether anyone else could have got the two
:07:04. > :07:06.sides together? It is very difficult to conceive of anybody else being
:07:07. > :07:13.able to deliver what he did deliver in the end, which was a Sinn Fein
:07:14. > :07:16.which had decommissioned its weaponry of the IRA, which had
:07:17. > :07:21.committed to full support of the police, the courts and the rule of
:07:22. > :07:25.law. You say in the end, he repeatedly said never surrender, no
:07:26. > :07:31.surrender, not to Sunningdale, not to the Anglo-Irish Agreement or the
:07:32. > :07:37.Good Friday Agreement, in those years a lot of people suffered on
:07:38. > :07:40.both sides, partly some would say because of his intransigence? The
:07:41. > :07:46.one thing about Ian Paisley he was first and foremost a democrat. He
:07:47. > :07:49.was man to believed very strongly in the democratic process, he always
:07:50. > :07:53.condemned in the strongest terrorism violence or terrorism, whichever
:07:54. > :07:59.side it came from. What he was very keen to establish was a durable way
:08:00. > :08:04.forward, which did not give either undue influence to the Dublin
:08:05. > :08:07.Government, as the Anglo-Irish agreement did in 1985, or which put
:08:08. > :08:10.terrorists into the heart of Government in Northern Ireland with
:08:11. > :08:14.them still holding on to their weapons and not supporting the
:08:15. > :08:20.police. His language was inflammatory wasn't it? He said the
:08:21. > :08:25.most extraordinary things, and often the accusation of bigotry was often
:08:26. > :08:28.laid at his door. He tacked about Catholics breeding like rabbits and
:08:29. > :08:34.the Pope was called the scarlet woman of Rome. This was not just
:08:35. > :08:37.rhetoric, it was deeply wounding to a lot of people. All the Catholics
:08:38. > :08:41.in the country, it was incredibly wounding and he knew it. I was
:08:42. > :08:45.reading an article today I think it was in the New Statesman, in which
:08:46. > :08:51.they recalled a reporter going and listening to one of his sermons, and
:08:52. > :08:54.saying it was no different from the preachers in the Deep South of
:08:55. > :09:03.America, or the Protestant chapels in South Wales. His belief was very
:09:04. > :09:08.strong in terms of his Protestant evangelicalism, and he brooked no
:09:09. > :09:12.cause in taking on these issues. Do you think he will be remembered as
:09:13. > :09:16.one of the men who stirred the troubles or who delivered peace? I
:09:17. > :09:20.think he will be remembered by different people from the community
:09:21. > :09:23.in different ways. He was a very complex character, but he will be
:09:24. > :09:26.remembered fundamentally as a man who I believe said no when it was
:09:27. > :09:32.right to say no, and he said yes when the time had come to say yes. I
:09:33. > :09:38.wonder what he made of the independence referendum in Scotland?
:09:39. > :09:41.Well, he hadn't expressed a view publicly on that but I know from my
:09:42. > :09:48.close working with him over many, many years that he would have been
:09:49. > :09:52.fundamentally and passionately in favour of our Scots kith and kin,
:09:53. > :09:56.Ulster people have many connections with people in Scotland, remaining
:09:57. > :10:01.inside the United Kingdom. He would have been passionate about that. And
:10:02. > :10:06.I am sure it would have been one of his dying wishes to see the United
:10:07. > :10:09.Kingdom preserved. Well Jonathan Powell was Tony Blair's Chief of
:10:10. > :10:12.Staff and the British Government's lead negotiator in Northern Ireland
:10:13. > :10:17.during the talks to secure the Good Friday Agreement. He joins us now
:10:18. > :10:23.from Switzerland. First of all, what was Ian Paisley really like as a
:10:24. > :10:28.negotiator? He was very effective. He was very hard, drove a very hard
:10:29. > :10:31.bargain. And he got what he wanted, he settled for it, he was a
:10:32. > :10:35.relatively easy person to negotiate with. He carried his side with him.
:10:36. > :10:38.Sometimes unionist leaders had trouble doing that, but he could
:10:39. > :10:43.always bring them with him. Did you know, you must have been aware and
:10:44. > :10:47.you know you have a very detailed book about this whole process, you
:10:48. > :10:50.must have been aware that the back channels were open between the DUP
:10:51. > :10:56.and Sinn Fein through a lot of this time of negotiation? Yes, I mean on
:10:57. > :10:58.the face of it we were shuttling backwards and forwards between two
:10:59. > :11:01.parts that wouldn't meet. In fact they did have back channel meetings,
:11:02. > :11:06.they didn't get very far in negotiating with those. There were
:11:07. > :11:09.more to build confidence. Did you know in your heart of hearts that he
:11:10. > :11:14.would never sign up to the Good Friday Agreement? I never expected
:11:15. > :11:19.him to sign up to the Good Friday Agreement, and George Mitchell who
:11:20. > :11:24.was a facilitator then said thank goodness he didn't participate in
:11:25. > :11:28.the negotiations. He said if he hadn't participated we wouldn't have
:11:29. > :11:33.got to the Good Friday Agreement. How did you deal with his attitudes
:11:34. > :11:36.to Catholics, you heard the kind of language he used, what was he like
:11:37. > :11:40.in private? In private he could be charming and very, very amusing, but
:11:41. > :11:43.he did take a very hardline. He was not prepared for example to shake
:11:44. > :11:51.hands with an Irish Prime Minister, until the very end of the St Andrews
:11:52. > :11:55.talk, right at the very end. Bertie Ahearn presented him with a bowl
:11:56. > :11:59.created with wood from the site of the battle of the Boyne, he was
:12:00. > :12:03.emotional, he and his wife were there and they shook hand, that was
:12:04. > :12:06.the first time he had shaken hands with an Irish Catholic Prime
:12:07. > :12:09.Minister. For a start did you ever see him off his guard, was that a
:12:10. > :12:13.moment you saw him off his guard do you think? I think that was an
:12:14. > :12:16.emotional moment. He was an emotional man, and he reacted in an
:12:17. > :12:21.emotional way from time to time. But he was a discipline negotiator and
:12:22. > :12:26.that helps a facilitator if someone sticks to what they say they are
:12:27. > :12:30.going to deliver. Do you get any sense that he regretted at any point
:12:31. > :12:33.the bellicose way he dealt with things and his nature? I don't think
:12:34. > :12:37.he looked back like that, he was always looking forward. But he did
:12:38. > :12:41.have this transformation in 2004, he went into hospital and he came out a
:12:42. > :12:44.really rather changed man both physically and mentally. He told
:12:45. > :12:48.Tony Blair later that he had a close encounter with his maker, he nearly
:12:49. > :12:52.died. On the back that have he changed his mind, he decided he
:12:53. > :12:56.wanted to die as Dr Yes, not Dr No. After that moment in the
:12:57. > :13:02.negotiations... That's interesting, that at that very moment he thought
:13:03. > :13:05.he would die before there was peace? He thought he was going to die in
:13:06. > :13:08.that hospital. When he came out he was determined to succeed in getting
:13:09. > :13:11.to peace. And there after he was actually well ahead of his party. He
:13:12. > :13:14.would be in meetings saying yes when the rest of the party was saying no.
:13:15. > :13:19.And he was able to deliver them. And without him I'm not at all sure we
:13:20. > :13:23.would have got to the St Andrews' agreement. When you look now at what
:13:24. > :13:28.was achieved, do you think anyone other than Ian Paisley could have
:13:29. > :13:31.achieved that? I think it was in the end essential to have people on, if
:13:32. > :13:35.you like, the two extremes, to have Sinn Fein on one side and the DUP on
:13:36. > :13:39.the other side. No-one could outflank them or attack a deal they
:13:40. > :13:42.came to. That was crucial to getting to lasting peace, the peace we had
:13:43. > :13:47.before proved to be fragile. And when you assessed the kind of
:13:48. > :13:51.legacy, it is amazing when you actually look back at some of that
:13:52. > :13:55.archive, because we haven't heard from Ian Paisley for such a while,
:13:56. > :14:00.you forget how much we saw of that in the late 1970s and 1980sm and
:14:01. > :14:07.people's views change. How do you think he will be remembered? I think
:14:08. > :14:12.he will be remembered for both, both contributing to the start of the
:14:13. > :14:19.troubles by his march on west Belfast to remove the tricolour from
:14:20. > :14:22.the Sinn Fein office, and the end of the troubles at St Andrews, you
:14:23. > :14:25.can't leave out both in rembering him. When you watch the way he
:14:26. > :14:30.operated in Northern Ireland, when he sat down with Martin McGuinness,
:14:31. > :14:32.and Martin McGuinness said tonight to all intents and purposes they
:14:33. > :14:37.were joint leaders in Northern Ireland. When you look at the
:14:38. > :14:40.relationship, it must be a psychologist's dream to look at that
:14:41. > :14:43.relationship, what did you make of it? It was extraordinary from the
:14:44. > :14:46.very first moment that they sat down together when we went for the
:14:47. > :14:50.swearing in of the executive, from the very first moment they were
:14:51. > :14:55.laughing on the sofa, made speeches that complimented each other. It was
:14:56. > :15:00.an extraordinary transformation. Sometimes you have these cathartic
:15:01. > :15:03.moment in peace processes, where people on is either side come
:15:04. > :15:07.together to make it work. If Ian Paisley had not been in office that
:15:08. > :15:10.first year I'm not sure the institutions and Northern Ireland
:15:11. > :15:13.would have lasted. Times are difficult in Northern Ireland, there
:15:14. > :15:18.are difficulties between the parties, he made it work to start
:15:19. > :15:21.with. How will you remember him? I will remember him as someone who
:15:22. > :15:25.could be very amusing, could be very difficult, could be very tough, and
:15:26. > :15:28.someone who was very, very religious, right at the beginning
:15:29. > :15:31.Tony Blair was told by Peter rob intone you have to build a
:15:32. > :15:34.relationship with Ian Paisley if you are going to get to a peace
:15:35. > :15:37.agreement. So Tony Blair went to great lengths to see him privately,
:15:38. > :15:42.they used to talk in the den in Number Ten Downing Street, the two
:15:43. > :15:46.of them, I would shut the door and listen outside and here chuckening,
:15:47. > :15:51.laughter and voices raised, I would go in and expect something agreed on
:15:52. > :15:56.the negotiation and text, instead we were talking about religion Grace. I
:15:57. > :15:59.remember he left behind a religious tract for Leo, Tony Blair's son,
:16:00. > :16:03.rather than the negotiating paper I hoped to see. A religious man and
:16:04. > :16:07.driven by his faith, both in the things he did at the beginning,
:16:08. > :16:12.which in my view were wrong, and those things he did at the end,
:16:13. > :16:15.which were clearly right. In Iraq American air strikes have, for now,
:16:16. > :16:21.halted the advance of the Islamic state. Ic State, and speaking in
:16:22. > :16:26.Turkey today, John Kerry said he was confident that the US could build a
:16:27. > :16:29.broad coalition of European and Arab countries. However he said it was
:16:30. > :16:33.inappropriate for Iran to join that coalition. It is now clear he chose
:16:34. > :16:37.his words carefully. Newsnight has learned that on the ground Iran
:16:38. > :16:44.already appears to be sending troops and weapons into the conflict areas.
:16:45. > :16:47.Gabriel Gatehouse has been to one town just recaptured from IS and has
:16:48. > :16:52.sent this report. There is little left here of the
:16:53. > :16:55.Iraqi state, of the sovereign, stable and self-reliant country that
:16:56. > :17:02.America and her allies hoped to create. We're travelling towards the
:17:03. > :17:08.frontline where an uneasy alliance of Kurdish forces and Shia militia
:17:09. > :17:13.groups is battling Islamic State with support from American air
:17:14. > :17:17.strikes. This is a Sunni town, recently
:17:18. > :17:22.retaken after months under IS control. When the Shia militia
:17:23. > :17:31.commander and his men entered the town they discovered a mass grave,
:17:32. > :17:35.around 60 bodies, mostly Iraqi army soldiers, and truck drivers. They
:17:36. > :17:39.had their hands tied and some had been beheaded. The smell of death
:17:40. > :17:45.lingers in the air, and with it hatred and mistrust. One of the
:17:46. > :17:54.problems here is that the local people of this town supported IS in
:17:55. > :17:58.what they were doing? TRANSLATION: They ran away, they are not here.
:17:59. > :18:02.Some of the locals worked with Islamic State. Will those people
:18:03. > :18:14.ever be able to come back here and live? TRANSLATION: Impossible. The
:18:15. > :18:19.key to President Obama's strategy is to drain the Sunni extremists of
:18:20. > :18:24.Islamic State of local support by drawing moderates into a broad
:18:25. > :18:28.coalition. But this town is deserted, even the Sunni mayor, who
:18:29. > :18:32.pled IS in fear of his own life says it is too dangerous for him now to
:18:33. > :18:41.be here in the presence of the Shia militia. You are afraid, why are you
:18:42. > :18:49.afraid? TRANSLATION: I can't tell you now, he says. We will meet him
:18:50. > :18:54.again later. One of the Shia militia groups invited us in for tea at
:18:55. > :18:57.their forward base, just a few kilometres from the frontline. Their
:18:58. > :19:01.members are by and large Iraqis, but the brigade is trained and funded by
:19:02. > :19:07.Iran. They don't want to talk about that though. Without doubt it has
:19:08. > :19:14.been American fire power in the skies that has done the most to halt
:19:15. > :19:19.the advance of IS. But here, on the ground, it is not America but Iran
:19:20. > :19:25.that is running the show and not just through their proxys, the Shia
:19:26. > :19:28.militia. Few were willing to talk openly about the extent of Iran's
:19:29. > :19:33.involvement in fighting Islamic state on the ground in Iraq. But one
:19:34. > :19:37.Iraqi army officer, who wanted to remain anonymous for his own safety,
:19:38. > :19:41.told us that Iranian forces were operating in large numbers alongside
:19:42. > :19:47.Kurdish forces as well as Shia militia. TRANSLATION: They are in
:19:48. > :19:49.charge of heavy weapons and artillery, locating the enemy and
:19:50. > :19:54.shelling them, it is clear the weapons are from Iran. The Iranians
:19:55. > :20:03.are all over this area, they control it now. You are saying that Iran in
:20:04. > :20:08.effect controls this part of Iraq? TRANSLATION: They control everything
:20:09. > :20:12.except the flag. Less than three years after American soldiers were
:20:13. > :20:19.forced, reluctantly, to withdraw from Iraq, Iranian troops at their
:20:20. > :20:25.proxies, appear to be taking their place. Moderate Sunnis find
:20:26. > :20:30.themselves squeezed between the brutal Jihadists of Islamic State,
:20:31. > :20:35.and the hostile Shia backed militia group. The Mayor of This town has
:20:36. > :20:41.had to flee his home town, he says he and his people are forced to pick
:20:42. > :20:45.sides. TRANSLATION: Everyone hates IS, but the enemy of my enemy is my
:20:46. > :20:49.friend. Five of my brothers have been killed by Islamic State or
:20:50. > :20:58.Al-Qaeda. But I would rather they won this war than the other side. We
:20:59. > :21:01.travelled on to the latest frontline, just a few kilometres
:21:02. > :21:09.west of the town and the site of the mass grave. IS fighters are holed up
:21:10. > :21:18.just a few hundred metres away. As we are filming a shell lands in the
:21:19. > :21:22.field in front of us. Then the sound of another being fired. Everyone
:21:23. > :21:28.just dived for cover, because out of the blue we heard the whistle of
:21:29. > :21:31.what sounded like a mortar coming from the Islamic State lines over
:21:32. > :21:37.there. Everyone went face down into the dust. The shell landed some way
:21:38. > :21:42.away, no-one was hurt. But there are daily battles here. This outpost is
:21:43. > :21:45.controlled by the Kurds, the third force in the growing conflict
:21:46. > :21:50.between Sunni and Shia. For the moment the Kurds are content to
:21:51. > :21:58.fight IS alongside the Shia militia. But in the long-term they have their
:21:59. > :22:02.own interests. Of The commander tells me it is Kurdish territory,
:22:03. > :22:07.and they won't accept the presence of Shia militia here. The United
:22:08. > :22:10.States sees little option but to support this unlikely alliance
:22:11. > :22:17.against the Jihadists of Islamic State. But Iraq's divisions are
:22:18. > :22:22.becoming ever-more entrenched and on the ground Iran's control grows
:22:23. > :22:30.stronger by the day. Tonight Boris Johnson took on the
:22:31. > :22:35.unlikely role of a supplicate seeking preferment, he went to
:22:36. > :22:38.prostate himself in subject of the South Ruislip Conservative
:22:39. > :22:45.Association in the hopes of seeking a seat in the general election. He
:22:46. > :22:51.was expected face tough questions not least his preferring of a third
:22:52. > :23:03.runway at Heathrow. Have you heard from Mr Cameron? Good night, sorry
:23:04. > :23:07.to miss you on Newsnight. Allegra Stratton is there. They have gone
:23:08. > :23:10.for him? David Cameron said they wanted their best men and women on
:23:11. > :23:14.the pitch, Boris Johnson is on the bench and waiting. We understand it
:23:15. > :23:18.was a fairly tough grilling, the four candidates had half an hour
:23:19. > :23:21.each of Hustings, 140 people asking them questions, but one source tells
:23:22. > :23:26.us he was head and shoulders above the rest, he should be really,
:23:27. > :23:30.shouldn't he. He is not only an MP before but the Mayor of London. He
:23:31. > :23:33.wanted to be on the pitch, and David Cameron wanted him on there, will he
:23:34. > :23:37.not take David Cameron off the pitch, do you think? He might do at
:23:38. > :23:40.some point. It is a difficult period for David Cameron, more so than I
:23:41. > :23:43.think the Prime Minister thought it might have been about a month ago.
:23:44. > :23:48.He thought he had his Tories in quite a good place. But they are
:23:49. > :23:52.very restive, as you would expect about the possibility of having a
:23:53. > :23:56.Prime Minister that presides over the collapse over the European. Even
:23:57. > :24:01.if it doesn't collapse the idea of more powers to Scotland does not go
:24:02. > :24:05.down well for the Tories. And then a Tory defection to UKIP, it means if
:24:06. > :24:09.the Tories lose the next election it is game on for Boris Johnson, even
:24:10. > :24:11.if they go in with David Cameron as Prime Minister, Boris Johnson is now
:24:12. > :24:18.sitting pretty. Thank you very much. In Scotland the latest poll
:24:19. > :24:25.suggests that the referendum race is still too close to call. With an ICN
:24:26. > :24:31.poll for the Guardian puts it neck and neck. We are in Glasgow tonight
:24:32. > :24:37.and we will get up-to-date with the campaign this evening.
:24:38. > :24:44.What's new? Just over in that direction an hour or two ago in the
:24:45. > :24:48.Teachers' Hall, named not after the people who toil in classrooms but
:24:49. > :24:52.whiskey, Nigel Farage addressed an enthusiastic audience. His message,
:24:53. > :24:57.don't kid yourself Scotland, there is no such thing as independence if
:24:58. > :25:02.Scotland remains within the EU. How much good that kind of intervention
:25:03. > :25:06.from UKIP does in this close low-fought campaign, I'm not
:25:07. > :25:11.entirely sure. But those numbers you were mentioning, 49 to the yes side,
:25:12. > :25:14.51 for the no side in the latest ICM poll for the Guardian, there is
:25:15. > :25:17.another figure in there that we should note. That is the headline
:25:18. > :25:23.figure when you strip out those who don't know. The "don't knows"
:25:24. > :25:27.according to that poll 17%. With six days to go everything to play for.
:25:28. > :25:31.Aside from Nigel Farage, there is a lot of noise around these claims and
:25:32. > :25:37.counter claims from business about what impact independence would have
:25:38. > :25:42.for consumers? Exactly, and Alex Salmond spent much of the day trying
:25:43. > :25:46.to counter that. He said this bullying takes by big business, big
:25:47. > :25:51.Government and big oil. They are particularly insensed on the yes
:25:52. > :25:56.side about an intervention by the Treasury, on Wednesday night we got
:25:57. > :25:59.the news that RBS would plan to relocate their business out of
:26:00. > :26:06.Scotland to London if there was a yes vote. Well, we learned today
:26:07. > :26:11.that was communicated to a journalist by the Treasury before
:26:12. > :26:14.even the board had made the official decision, before they had even
:26:15. > :26:19.finished their meeting. Alex Salmond wants answers, he recognises, he
:26:20. > :26:25.says a concerted dirty tricks campaign against the yes side. Now,
:26:26. > :26:28.also, it sounds like the Better Together campaign are focussing on
:26:29. > :26:32.the economic arguments and not really embracing this idea that
:26:33. > :26:35.Scots are really heart felt members of the British Isles, it is a were.
:26:36. > :26:38.You have been looking at where they stand in the British family and how
:26:39. > :26:43.Britishness has been playing this week? Indeed, that is the case. I
:26:44. > :26:53.think a lot of the foreign journalists who have arrived here
:26:54. > :26:59.for this big new story, expected it to be carried out by Mel Gibson on
:27:00. > :27:02.one side and people draped in the Union Jack on the other. It is
:27:03. > :27:06.emphatically not that fight as you well know.
:27:07. > :27:10.Call it the bulldog that didn't bark, but one theme hardly
:27:11. > :27:15.referenced in this examine is Britishness. That might -- campaign
:27:16. > :27:20.is Britishness. It might not be sensible to some, but it is perfect
:27:21. > :27:25.sense in Scotland. Britishness has a good deal of difficulty identifying
:27:26. > :27:28.as a modern contemporary identity rather than backward one. The idea
:27:29. > :27:32.that Britishness has to be one thing, that is difficult to sell in
:27:33. > :27:35.Scotland, it meant Britishness has become an oppositional identity.
:27:36. > :27:38.That is not to say there are not Scots who strongly associate with
:27:39. > :27:43.Britishness, but they will not represent more than had a proportion
:27:44. > :27:47.even of those voting no. Tonight 's big no campaign event was Labour
:27:48. > :27:51.one. And you won't hear passionate defences of Britishness here.
:27:52. > :27:57.Instead a plea to continue a common struggle against a common enemy, the
:27:58. > :28:01.Labour leader quote ago now dead communist Scottish trade unionists
:28:02. > :28:07.to make his point. He said the Scottish worker has more in common
:28:08. > :28:11.with the London docker, the Sheffield engineer, than the
:28:12. > :28:16.Scottish baron and the Scottish landowner, that is solidarity. That
:28:17. > :28:26.is what solidarity is all about. That is what nationalism, friends
:28:27. > :28:32.that is what nationalism will never understand. That solidarity is what
:28:33. > :28:38.unites our movement. Gordon Brown too spoke at the Labour event, about
:28:39. > :28:42.Britishness as an inclusive identity was one of the pet themes of his
:28:43. > :28:44.Premiership, although his crickets suggested this was really about
:28:45. > :28:50.selling a very Scottish Prime Minister to very English voters. The
:28:51. > :28:55.yes campaign contend that the inclusivity of Britishness is no
:28:56. > :28:59.longer needed, today at a rather peculiar event, different
:29:00. > :29:04.ethnicities, and nationalities were claimed their parallel Scottishness.
:29:05. > :29:09.Angel describes herself as an English Scot. How English? She was
:29:10. > :29:12.born to Scottish parents working at the time temporarily in England.
:29:13. > :29:17.Britishness is not something that is being accepted, not just here in
:29:18. > :29:20.Scotland, but also in the north of England and Wales and Ireland, we
:29:21. > :29:25.just don't identify with that stereotype, you know. We are not
:29:26. > :29:30.that, we are not roast beef, we are haggis. The Union Jack flies in
:29:31. > :29:38.Glasgow still, but often it is linked to a specific unionist range
:29:39. > :29:43.of supporting identity. At this Tavern, Jim Macduff tells me there
:29:44. > :29:47.is a community that feels stigmatised and marginalised.
:29:48. > :29:54.is a community that feels for being Scottish and British, then
:29:55. > :29:58.you are traitor. Into this delicate cacophony of sometimes competing,
:29:59. > :30:02.sometimes complimentry, sometimes overlapping identities, tonight
:30:03. > :30:06.pitched the UKIP leader, Nigel Farage, his message not so much a
:30:07. > :30:09.hymn to Britain, but a warning to Scots not to believe that
:30:10. > :30:14.independence is possible inside the EU. Alex Salmond talk about how
:30:15. > :30:19.strong Scotland can be in the European Union. Let me tell you
:30:20. > :30:24.Scotland will be a small and pretty irrelevant member-state of the
:30:25. > :30:28.European Union. This referendum is not a referendum on Britishness
:30:29. > :30:34.versus Scottishness, if it were it would have probably been decided
:30:35. > :30:39.long ago. It is more a debate about where Scotland's best future lies,
:30:40. > :30:42.inside or outside the UK. Here to discuss what the
:30:43. > :30:47.independence debate with tell us about British next we have the film
:30:48. > :30:50.director Ken Loach and broadcaster Echo with us.
:30:51. > :30:56.You have the Better Together campaign flying the saltire in
:30:57. > :30:59.Scotland, but you would think they would want to fly the Union Flag in
:31:00. > :31:05.Scotland, and that is not acceptable, and the Scots were the
:31:06. > :31:09.agents of empire? The context of Britishness is too woolly or vague,
:31:10. > :31:13.it doesn't have a political point and the Britishness of ordinary
:31:14. > :31:18.people, and the values of solidarity, of community, of
:31:19. > :31:21.neighbourliness, of looking after your brother and sister, that's not
:31:22. > :31:26.the values of the Bullingdon boys at the top of the establishment. So the
:31:27. > :31:31.concept is too vague really to have any meaning politically. What does
:31:32. > :31:35.being British mean to you? I think Britishness is an important concept,
:31:36. > :31:41.I think Britishness is about a country, with lots of different
:31:42. > :31:45.people, Britishness is about peculiarity, Britishness is about a
:31:46. > :31:47.country which has been historically open in sometimes difficult ways to
:31:48. > :31:52.all sorts of people from all parts of the world. But if Scotland wasn't
:31:53. > :31:58.part of that Britain, would you still feel part of that Britain? I
:31:59. > :32:01.actually think one of the issues is that politicians, especially in
:32:02. > :32:04.England, less so in Scotland, especially in England, have made a
:32:05. > :32:09.poor case for what Britishness can be. Under the Tory-led Government
:32:10. > :32:12.politicians of all parties have actually retreated from making a
:32:13. > :32:18.progressive case for Britain which, is to say that Britain is a better
:32:19. > :32:23.place because of immigration and cultural mixing we have in this
:32:24. > :32:27.country. You look at your film Spirit of 45, there was no greater
:32:28. > :32:31.hype of Britishness then? And all the British achievements then have
:32:32. > :32:36.been systematically destroyed and dismembered. Think about British
:32:37. > :32:39.Rail, it is own by Germans, or Dutch people and run by them, our power
:32:40. > :32:43.companies are owned by the French, and George Osborne is getting the
:32:44. > :32:47.Chinese to invest in nuclear power. There is no great respect for the
:32:48. > :32:51.Great British achievement. And the NHS is now the providers of the
:32:52. > :32:56.services is being hived off to foreign healthcare companies. So
:32:57. > :33:01.there is no great concern for the Great British institutions which we
:33:02. > :33:05.established. Do you see yourself primarily as English or British?
:33:06. > :33:09.Fundamentally I think of myself as British, which is to say I'm a
:33:10. > :33:13.citizen of a country that is made up of many different people. I think
:33:14. > :33:17.what is important about that is that I think our identity as British
:33:18. > :33:22.people can be predicated not just on par as to what we have had, but on
:33:23. > :33:26.the present. Ken Loach is saying there isn't a clear enough idea
:33:27. > :33:29.about those things? All the good things in tolerance, in
:33:30. > :33:32.inclusiveness, we have to fight for those. We have to fight for those
:33:33. > :33:38.whether Scotland is part of this country or not. I hope the Scots
:33:39. > :33:41.take the advantage and actually make a different kind of society, that is
:33:42. > :33:46.what they are trying to do. They want a society of tolerance and
:33:47. > :33:49.inclusiveness, and that is not the kind of society that the Farrages
:33:50. > :33:56.and the Camerons are going to have in mind for us. Let's be honest,
:33:57. > :34:03.UKIP has a small percentage of support in England? In Scotland. In
:34:04. > :34:08.England? Well let's see. Part of the problem with all of this is it comes
:34:09. > :34:13.in when you start discussing nationalism, which is that ideas of
:34:14. > :34:17.nation tend to revolve around fixed ideas of what a country has been and
:34:18. > :34:22.what a country should be, in fact if you think about nations, thriving,
:34:23. > :34:27.progressive nations are places that reinvent themselves all the time.
:34:28. > :34:30.Not absolutely but reinvent themselves based on the values they
:34:31. > :34:34.have, but based on the opportunities that new people bring to those
:34:35. > :34:40.countries. For you is it too late to reinvent Britishness? It is not too
:34:41. > :34:43.late to make a decent society. How would you rekindle it? Whether it is
:34:44. > :34:47.British, English or Welsh or whatever. That is not the point.
:34:48. > :34:53.Britishness was about empire and slavery and oppression. Sense the
:34:54. > :34:57.butcher's apron. Britishness has a long legacy which we want to disown.
:34:58. > :35:02.When people come and are made welcome and we work together, that's
:35:03. > :35:05.the kind of society we want. Could there be more effective ways in
:35:06. > :35:11.Scotland of selling the idea of Britishness? Well yes, I think so. I
:35:12. > :35:15.think the point is Britain in Scotland. Even if you are in
:35:16. > :35:19.Scotland or England the notion of Britain has a country that is open
:35:20. > :35:24.for possibility, as a country where the individuals in it, wherever they
:35:25. > :35:29.come from, have an opportunity, possibly even an obligation to make
:35:30. > :35:34.themselves heard, to make themselves part of what the country itself can
:35:35. > :35:39.be. Not what it has been. I think you can frame what Britain is as a
:35:40. > :35:44.place of genuine possibility, genuine progress, even hope, rather
:35:45. > :35:48.than insisting that it is best and its true values lie only in the
:35:49. > :35:52.past. This is a different kind of politics, it needs a different kind
:35:53. > :35:56.of politics, based on common ownership, you have to have an
:35:57. > :35:59.economic system that he will flect community and sharing and e--
:36:00. > :36:04.reflect community and sharing and equality. Our Britishness is massive
:36:05. > :36:07.equality, the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. We have
:36:08. > :36:09.to have a different structure to make the Britishness you are talking
:36:10. > :36:14.about. Thank you very much both of you. It was no surprise to you that
:36:15. > :36:18.Oscar Pistorius of found guilty of culpable homicide, the parents of
:36:19. > :36:24.Reeva Steenkamp had wanted a murder conviction, and he wept when ageted
:36:25. > :36:27.of murder yesterday. -- acquitted of murder yesterday. Today he was
:36:28. > :36:31.impassive as the judge delivered the verdict. How has South Africa felt
:36:32. > :36:37.for being under the gaze of the world for this, rather than
:36:38. > :36:42.something to be proud of? At the centre of a media frenzy, as
:36:43. > :36:47.he has been since he fired those fatal rounds on Valentine's Day last
:36:48. > :36:57.year, Oscar Pistorius was freed on bail after the best verdict he could
:36:58. > :37:09.have hoped for. One that took many onlookers by surprise. Mr Pistorius
:37:10. > :37:15.please stand up. On count 1, murder red with section 51 (1) of the
:37:16. > :37:24.criminal law amendment act, 105 of 1997, the accused is found not
:37:25. > :37:30.guilty and is discharged. Instead he's found guilty of culpable
:37:31. > :37:33.homicide. State prosecutors said they would await sentencing before
:37:34. > :37:39.considering an appeal. We are disappointed that we did not get or
:37:40. > :37:43.secure a conviction on premeditated murder, and also that there was an
:37:44. > :37:48.acquittal on the other two charges. But as I said, we are satisfied at
:37:49. > :37:55.this point that you know the court has played its role. Pistorius's
:37:56. > :38:04.uncle spoke on behalf of his family. We had never any doubt in Oscar's
:38:05. > :38:14.version, we as a family remain deeply affected by the devastating
:38:15. > :38:17.tragedy of the event. And it won't bring Reeva back, but our hearts
:38:18. > :38:30.still go out for her family and friends. Famous, wealthy, with his
:38:31. > :38:38.model girlfriend on his arm. Piss pitches one of South Africa's
:38:39. > :38:42.favourite sons. Until he blasted the defenceless Reeva Steenkamp through
:38:43. > :38:48.a toilet door through his apartment. The court accepted he hadn't meant
:38:49. > :38:51.to kill her, but that he was negligent, shooting first at a
:38:52. > :38:58.presumed intruder, he said, instead of calling for help. The prosecution
:38:59. > :39:03.portrayed him as gun toting and trigger happy. Pistorius gave his
:39:04. > :39:08.evidence off camera? I heard a noise coming from inside the toilet that I
:39:09. > :39:14.interpreted at that split moment as coming out to attack me, my lady.
:39:15. > :39:16.You just started shooting, or accidentally your fingers pulled the
:39:17. > :39:22.trigger. I started shooting at that point. At the intruders. They door.
:39:23. > :39:26.But in your mind, at the intruders? That is what I perceived as a
:39:27. > :39:31.shooter coming out to attack me. The state's case seemed to echo the
:39:32. > :39:39.words of an ex-girlfriend outside court, who said that Pistorius was
:39:40. > :39:43.an accident waiting to happen. It is hard to remember that Oscar
:39:44. > :39:48.Pistorius was once a celebrated athlete, the Blade Runner. The
:39:49. > :39:53.poster boy for Paralympic sport. He even competed against able bodied
:39:54. > :39:59.athletes at the London games two years ago. Incredibly a comeback at
:40:00. > :40:04.the Rio Paralympics is not out of the question. If he served any
:40:05. > :40:08.punishment given to him before Rio then the ball is in his court, if he
:40:09. > :40:13.wants to compete then we wouldn't stand in his way. But there's the
:40:14. > :40:17.little matter of his sentencing first. Miss Steenkamp's mother says
:40:18. > :40:26.she has forgiven him, but the family's pain is raw. Only people
:40:27. > :40:32.that have gone through this, will understand. It is easy for other
:40:33. > :40:36.people to look in and see and listen and have their thoughts but only
:40:37. > :40:45.once they have gone through it will they know what we feel. Pistorius is
:40:46. > :40:50.at his uncle's home tonight, while his case raises uncomfortable
:40:51. > :41:00.questions for South African society, such as sexism, domestic violence
:41:01. > :41:06.and gun crime. Earlier I spoke to the South African journalist. The
:41:07. > :41:11.eyes of the world are on South African but not for the right
:41:12. > :41:20.reasons, how uncomfortable do South Africans feel about this? They are
:41:21. > :41:25.uncomfortable that their golder boy has turned into this. South Africans
:41:26. > :41:30.found Oscar guilty in the court of public opinion before he actually
:41:31. > :41:34.walked into the dock. They are shocked on their findings of the
:41:35. > :41:38.judge and I think they want to see him go to jail for a long time. That
:41:39. > :41:42.is certainly the feeling I get there. They believe because he was
:41:43. > :41:45.wealthy he got away with it. That it has become a license for men who
:41:46. > :41:51.show violence to women. There are even many who say this is a racist
:41:52. > :41:54.decision. Although Judge Thokozile Masipa is a black judge. Is that the
:41:55. > :42:01.view across all sections of South African society? Yes, a very widely
:42:02. > :42:08.held view, here in Pretoria where Oscar Pistorius lived and went to
:42:09. > :42:13.school, there is a very hard kernal of support for him, people walking
:42:14. > :42:18.around wearing the old school tie for his school. There is that if you
:42:19. > :42:22.went into a pub in Pretoria and said something about Oscar you would pick
:42:23. > :42:26.up trouble. Widely the belief is he was guilty and there is some shock
:42:27. > :42:29.disappointment and anger at the findings of the judge. That is
:42:30. > :42:34.interesting, because what you seem to be suggesting is that if all
:42:35. > :42:40.sections of society, black and white, are united, that is an
:42:41. > :42:46.interesting unity? Very much so, but I mean the victim was a white woman,
:42:47. > :42:49.and people saying this beautiful white woman's life was taken nobody
:42:50. > :42:55.has paid yet. That is why I think the hope is there is no murder
:42:56. > :42:59.charge, but there will be a lengthy prison sentence handed down
:43:00. > :43:05.mid-October. You know Oscar Pistorius well, you MC'd the launch
:43:06. > :43:09.of his book, how will he be taking all of this. What will he be
:43:10. > :43:15.thinking just now as they prepare the appeal? The court heard about
:43:16. > :43:21.the two Oscars, the champion, the athlete, who overcomes great odds
:43:22. > :43:26.and the very, very vulnerable person who feels anxiety and is terribly,
:43:27. > :43:34.terribly aware of his limitations as a disabled person. I think what we
:43:35. > :43:37.are seeing now is a hugely relieved Oscar, he wept with relief yesterday
:43:38. > :43:41.when the murder charges were dropped. There is some anticipation
:43:42. > :43:49.about the culpable homicide charge. He comes from a moneyed family, and
:43:50. > :43:53.certainly his uncle won't allow any custodial sentence to go unappealed.
:43:54. > :43:58.This will run and run. If a custodial sentence is handed down
:43:59. > :44:01.mid-October, it will go to the appeals, it will go all the way to
:44:02. > :44:05.the constitutional court. It will be some years before Oscar Pistorius,
:44:06. > :44:10.if indeed he does ever walk through a Prisongate. Thank you very much
:44:11. > :44:14.for joining us tonight. That's about it for tonight. It is also the last
:44:15. > :44:26.night of the Newsnight Proms, our series of live previews of the BBC
:44:27. > :44:27.Prom, we wemt with a South African lyric soprano singing Puccini's O
:44:28. > :46:39.Mio Babbino Caro. If outdoor plans for the weekend are
:46:40. > :46:40.for you it is a good