:00:09. > :00:14.Good evening, there are fewer than 60 hours to go until the polling
:00:15. > :00:19.stations open for the referendum on Scottish independence, and the fight
:00:20. > :00:24.for every last vote is on. We're in the Newsnight tent in Broughty Ferry
:00:25. > :00:28.in the SNP constituency of donity East, with an audience of mainly yes
:00:29. > :00:34.supporter, tomorrow we will be mainly with no voters in the only
:00:35. > :00:42.Tory seat in Scotland. In the yes camp Cox and the no camp, Mone and
:00:43. > :00:47.local MP, Stewart Hosie, we will be speaking to David Cameron before the
:00:48. > :00:52.final vote. Alex Salmond says it is ridiculous to say the EU would
:00:53. > :01:04.reject an independent Scotland, we will hear from Spain's Europe
:01:05. > :01:13.Minister who says it is not. Welcome to Broughty Ferry, there is
:01:14. > :01:18.a seemingly unquenchable thirst for debate for this the referendum home
:01:19. > :01:25.straight. Much of it is good tempered, but not all of it. Allegra
:01:26. > :01:32.Stratton has been on the streets of Dundee, the streets of will will and
:01:33. > :01:36.Desperate Dan. She's also in the capital and with Alex Salmond. We
:01:37. > :01:42.will hear from her in a moment. Bryan Cox, do you believe it has
:01:43. > :01:44.been an energising experience for democracy. In the last two or three
:01:45. > :01:49.weeks the gears have shifted massively? Absolutely. It is a
:01:50. > :01:53.movement, and movement for social democracy. The winner in all this is
:01:54. > :01:56.social democracy. We're the envy of the world, the world is looking at
:01:57. > :02:01.us slightly agog at what is going on in Scotland. And I'm proud of our
:02:02. > :02:05.country and all the people here. We have shown an example, which has
:02:06. > :02:09.been sadly missing in the world. I'm really excited about it. Michelle,
:02:10. > :02:16.it is interesting, because in the last general election, the turnout
:02:17. > :02:19.in Scotland was about 64%, it could be over 80% now, could you imagine
:02:20. > :02:25.that happening? Never, I think what it is bringing out is that passion
:02:26. > :02:28.from either side, no-one can question any Scot, we are all
:02:29. > :02:33.passionate about Scotland, whether you are in the yes camp or the no
:02:34. > :02:36.camp. This Team Scotland that Alex Salmond keeps coming out with, I was
:02:37. > :02:41.quite hurt by it, because he was making out people like me, who are
:02:42. > :02:45.yes, wanting us to stay and grow together, he was making me feel as
:02:46. > :02:48.if you're not passionate about Scotland, I'm exceptionally
:02:49. > :02:54.passionate about Scotland, I have grown my businesses here, I live
:02:55. > :02:58.here, I grew up in the East End of Glasgow and I built my companies
:02:59. > :03:09.there. I'm Team Scotland and in the yes camp. You're not, in the no
:03:10. > :03:13.camp! That's wonderful live on television we have a convert.
:03:14. > :03:23.Magnificent, thank you Michelle. That's wonderful. That brings me to
:03:24. > :03:26.a point, yes and no people can have a cuddle. By and large the campaign
:03:27. > :03:32.has been pretty good natured, but it is all not good natured. I wonder if
:03:33. > :03:39.there has been a negative (shouting in the background) Someone is out in
:03:40. > :03:43.Broughty Ferry. Is there negatively? You get head bangers. We just had
:03:44. > :03:50.one here now. You do get head bangers, but on the whole it is, you
:03:51. > :03:54.know the civility is unbelievable, you know. And everybody is worried
:03:55. > :03:57.about what is going to happen afterwards, will we come together
:03:58. > :04:02.again? Of course we will. That is who we are, that is what
:04:03. > :04:05.distinguishes us as a nation. We have got probably two-thirds yes
:04:06. > :04:09.voters here and a third no vote, just coming to the question voters
:04:10. > :04:13.here, did you feel that you have been energised for the first time in
:04:14. > :04:17.political discourse, yes the gentleman with the red jacket and
:04:18. > :04:22.the tartan tie, can we hear from you? My yes vote isn't necessarily a
:04:23. > :04:25.vote for any particular policy, it is a vote for democracy, it is a
:04:26. > :04:29.vote for the energy that exists right across Scotland, yes and no.
:04:30. > :04:33.I'm voting yes because there is something new and significant
:04:34. > :04:40.happening in our country at the moment. Just coming round to the no
:04:41. > :04:44.camp here, is there about, vote no if you don't know? Are you very
:04:45. > :04:49.worried about the uncertainties over Europe, which we will talk about
:04:50. > :04:57.later, or the currency, what are your major concerns, somebody there?
:04:58. > :05:00.Yes? The gentleman with the blue shirt what are your major concerns?
:05:01. > :05:02.One of the concerns in the City, which relates to Bryan Cox is really
:05:03. > :05:06.the effects on our universities. We have two eminent universities in the
:05:07. > :05:09.city, I think independence would create difficulties for the
:05:10. > :05:16.financing of the eminent research teams for instance in biosciences.
:05:17. > :05:19.So I find it interesting that Bryan's the rector of the
:05:20. > :05:24.university, but he's supporting independence. We will talk about the
:05:25. > :05:27.wonderful position that Dundee in the world is as a global research
:05:28. > :05:31.centre in the moment. First the temperature of the political
:05:32. > :05:34.rhetoric is rising. Tonight David Cameron delivered a warning to
:05:35. > :05:38.voters, in front of an audience of Conservative activists in Aberdeen,
:05:39. > :05:43.he sent forth an urgent message. Don't take your anger with the
:05:44. > :05:45.austerity or the bedroom tax out in your vote, because there is no going
:05:46. > :05:51.back to the union after Thursday if there is a yes vote.
:05:52. > :05:53.Minister, whatever happens in the next few day, the significant
:05:54. > :05:57.constitutional change on the way, that is hardly what you planned? No,
:05:58. > :06:01.I think it is right to have a referendum on whether Scotland wants
:06:02. > :06:04.to stay part of the United Kingdom. But I always said right from the
:06:05. > :06:08.start of this campaign, if Scotland voted no to separation the rest of
:06:09. > :06:11.the United Kingdom would say yes to further devolution. It has been good
:06:12. > :06:16.in the campaign that we have been able to say more about that I think
:06:17. > :06:20.that is a positive. No, doesn't mean no change. It looks last-minute in
:06:21. > :06:28.terms of the timetable and detail. You were the Prime Minister that
:06:29. > :06:31.agreed the referendum but kept devo max off the paper, if it is a yes
:06:32. > :06:34.will you take personal responsibility? On the question of
:06:35. > :06:38.having more than one question, I think it was right to have one
:06:39. > :06:41.question. If Scotland wants more devolution and I think it should
:06:42. > :06:53.have t you have to ask the prior question, "do you want to stay in
:06:54. > :06:55.the United Kingdom? ". That wasn't just my view it was all the major
:06:56. > :06:57.leaders, to settle the question of separation and then devolution. In
:06:58. > :07:03.this campaign the individual parties have set out their proposals and
:07:04. > :07:08.been strikingly similar, so it is. Without that on the ballot paper,
:07:09. > :07:10.many believe that has increased the chances of a question vote, you
:07:11. > :07:16.might be the Prime Minister that presides over the break up of a
:07:17. > :07:18.union that is more than 300 years old. How will you feel if that is
:07:19. > :07:21.your legacy? I feel passionately about our United Kingdom. I
:07:22. > :07:24.desperately want our country to stay together. I very much hope that
:07:25. > :07:28.Scotland will vote no and that will trigger further devolution. But I'm
:07:29. > :07:36.a democrat. I was faced by a situation where one part of our
:07:37. > :07:37.UFSHGS kingdom voted for a Government, the Scottish National
:07:38. > :07:39.Party Government, that wanted a referendum I think the right
:07:40. > :07:42.decision was to allow that referendum, rather than to fight T I
:07:43. > :07:45.think if I had said no, you can't have a referendum, I think Scottish
:07:46. > :07:51.independence would be closer today than it is. But you may have
:07:52. > :07:57.presided over an extraordinary set of constitutional events. How will
:07:58. > :07:59.you feel if you are the Prime Minister from the Conservative and
:08:00. > :08:05.Unionist Party who sees that nation break up? I have been very clear, I
:08:06. > :08:08.have said it would break my heart to see the United Kingdom split apart,
:08:09. > :08:13.and a few days before polling day, I say that again on your programme.
:08:14. > :08:16.That is not what I seek. I want our United Kingdom to stay together. I
:08:17. > :08:23.believe we are stronger, safer, better off in this dangerous world
:08:24. > :08:26.of instability and problems and threats, the most recent of which we
:08:27. > :08:29.can see from Syria and Iraq. But I'm a democrat, and in the end it is for
:08:30. > :08:35.the people of Scotland to choose, that is the way we do things in
:08:36. > :08:38.these islands. Do you wish that you personally, and the union campaign,
:08:39. > :08:52.had made more effort early on? I believe I fought this campaign very
:08:53. > :08:54.hard. This is something like my 11th major intervention floe this A
:08:55. > :08:57.campaign of more than two years? It is not campaign of the Conservative
:08:58. > :08:59.Party against the Scottish National Party, it is all those parties, and
:09:00. > :08:59.trade unions and volumity bodies and charities,
:09:00. > :09:03.trade unions and volumity bodies and nothing to do with politics who want
:09:04. > :09:07.to stay part of the of nations and those who want to leave. There will
:09:08. > :09:15.be more powers for Scotland, should there will be more powers for
:09:16. > :09:17.England too, an English parliament? I don't think we are remotely at
:09:18. > :10:06.that stage. The debate has begun in your
:10:07. > :10:12.being The key thing that people need to see this week of all weeks. Do
:10:13. > :10:16.you think we are witnessing something fundamentally, not just
:10:17. > :10:23.with the rise of the SNP, but also in terms of UKIP. People seem to be
:10:24. > :10:25.turning away or lost faith of the 50 years of politics that had been
:10:26. > :10:28.settled. Are we seeing something fundamentally? I think what we are
:10:29. > :10:30.seeing is when you have had a difficult and painful recession, and
:10:31. > :10:33.British families have been through very difficult times, many people
:10:34. > :10:37.have lost their jobs. They are now getting them back again. But you
:10:38. > :10:41.have seen pay not going up. Living standards squeezed. When you see
:10:42. > :10:45.those things people want change and answers. What we have to do is
:10:46. > :10:48.explain we can get those answers through a United Kingdom Government.
:10:49. > :10:53.We are coming out of the bad times. We have created two million new
:10:54. > :10:56.jobs. We are seeing the country including Scotland recover and
:10:57. > :10:59.recover strongly and now is not the time to break our country apart. You
:11:00. > :11:03.believe this is partly the product of a recession? As I say
:11:04. > :11:07.anti-politics feeling that you see, not just in Britain, but other
:11:08. > :11:11.countries, is people wanting change, people wanting leaders that
:11:12. > :11:17.understand their aspirations and they want these things fixed. That
:11:18. > :11:24.is what political leaders have to realise and act on. David Cameron
:11:25. > :11:30.talking to Laura, we're here in Broughty Ferry with an audience
:11:31. > :11:38.mainly of yes supporter, but no campaigners too. You heard David
:11:39. > :11:40.Cameron say there that this is his 11th foray into this debate into
:11:41. > :11:43.Scotland. It felt to some people that the cavalry was coming, surely
:11:44. > :11:50.he has every right as Prime Minister to come and make his case in
:11:51. > :11:54.Scotland. Honestly, I think first of all those who will vote no, before
:11:55. > :11:59.you tick or cross that box you need to think why is this referendum
:12:00. > :12:09.happening in the first place. A big part of that is no-one asked voted
:12:10. > :12:14.for David Cameron, yet he is bringing in all those policies. You
:12:15. > :12:20.say about the bedroom tax, that is a big part of it. That is why we are
:12:21. > :12:25.trying to break-away. Over here on the no side. You heard David Cameron
:12:26. > :12:30.say a no vote is a vote for change. Do you think that you would have had
:12:31. > :12:33.more success than you perhaps have had on the doorsteps if you had
:12:34. > :12:44.known there was going to be so much change offered in the event of a no
:12:45. > :12:48.vote. The lady in the front? Absolutely. I believe more power is
:12:49. > :12:52.excellent and listened to the debate and the experts. Would you like him
:12:53. > :12:56.to have come up with the idea of more change for Scotland earlier on?
:12:57. > :13:07.I dare say it should have come sooner, but better late than ever.
:13:08. > :13:13.Let's look at the day's events with Stratton STRACHLT
:13:14. > :13:19.Despite this hoopla a critical number of Scots haven't made up
:13:20. > :13:21.their minds. The late surge in the campaign has been to Alex Salmond,
:13:22. > :13:23.out at Edinburgh airport this morning with pro-independence
:13:24. > :13:34.business men, hoping, with three days to go to clinch wavers voters.
:13:35. > :13:39.-- wavering voters. I know how closely you followed the debate. If
:13:40. > :13:48.you remember two weeks ago in the middle of the BBC debate a dramatic
:13:49. > :13:50.revelation from Alastair Darling that Scotland could use the pound.
:13:51. > :13:54.If you follow the debate. We do follow the debate, it is ambiguous
:13:55. > :13:59.if they will let you have a currency union, the undecided want to know?
:14:00. > :14:06.You should have taken Alastair Darling's place, you are doing
:14:07. > :14:13.better than he is. Darling did say they could use the pound in limited
:14:14. > :14:18.form without a currency union. The SNP is very upbeat today. Working
:14:19. > :14:21.hard to make sure those who are pro-independence show up for
:14:22. > :14:25.independence. Even to the west of Edinburgh centre, not an SNP
:14:26. > :14:31.stronghold, the yes vote think their offer of freedom on Friday is
:14:32. > :14:36.infectious. Today the yes campaign pitched their stall next to the
:14:37. > :14:41.office of a local MP. Why are you not got one window with no and one
:14:42. > :14:45.with yes. I don't believe in yes. I believe it will damage. It is not
:14:46. > :14:49.about you. It is actually. About It is about the people you represent
:14:50. > :14:55.which are your constituents. Where's the no people on the street? They
:14:56. > :15:02.are off delivering all round the city. Yeah right. Who do you mean
:15:03. > :15:07.right. Why have you such little respect for the other side of the
:15:08. > :15:10.campaign. Why are you doing? Why is that your reaction immediately, it
:15:11. > :15:21.is intimidation. You know, you have got the van and car parked outside
:15:22. > :15:24.the office, you have got 20 people who are basing themselves 10ms from
:15:25. > :15:26.the office. Can Scotland return to normal after this? It has to. Look
:15:27. > :15:32.at the exchange you had with that lady there, it is not common fare
:15:33. > :15:37.for you? Things will calm down after the vote is under way. It has to be
:15:38. > :15:40.a priority for everyone either side of the campaign to put Scotland back
:15:41. > :15:45.together, this has been hugely devisive. Tension in Edinburgh this
:15:46. > :15:52.morning, and here in the SNP stronghold of Dundee, the two sides
:15:53. > :15:54.are also shrugging it out. Both teams believe it will be the
:15:55. > :15:57.undecided voters that swing the poll on Thursday. Some pollsters think if
:15:58. > :16:04.everybody who currently hasn't made up their mind went over to the yes
:16:05. > :16:07.team, that could be enough to decide things for Alex Salmond. But the no
:16:08. > :16:11.camp think they are also having some traction. It is just their vote is
:16:12. > :16:15.quieter. The pro-union campaigners also mobilised its ground troops.
:16:16. > :16:20.Some of those undecided voters are people who have never voted before,
:16:21. > :16:24.or rarely. With no previous voting record this group of people is quite
:16:25. > :16:27.unpredictable. We have been asked, I think, either way to vote without
:16:28. > :16:31.having concrete evidence of what way it is going to go. You are an
:16:32. > :16:36.undecided voter? That is exactly what I am. I'm going to turn up on
:16:37. > :16:41.the day and see whether the sun is shining and I will look for signs,
:16:42. > :16:44.if there is a thistle in the clouds. You sound forgive me,
:16:45. > :16:47.if there is a thistle in the clouds. and informed about things and you
:16:48. > :16:52.are really going to go in and put your finger in the wind and go for
:16:53. > :16:55.it? That is basically it. This is a decision that could break up our
:16:56. > :17:00.family of nations and rip Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom.
:17:01. > :17:08.And we must be very clear. There is no going back from this. No rerun.
:17:09. > :17:13.This is a once and for all decision. If Scotland votes yes, the UK will
:17:14. > :17:19.split and we will go our separate ways forever. David Cameron made his
:17:20. > :17:25.last plea. He fears voters think they can vote yes, change minds
:17:26. > :17:32.later. Both camps have the same message, "this is it".
:17:33. > :17:35.Allegra Stratton reporting, we apologise if you heard any wearing
:17:36. > :17:38.swearing and noises off the way, there is a tiny number of Broughty
:17:39. > :17:57.Ferry out there with nothing better to do.
:17:58. > :17:59.I'm joined by Michelle Mone, you run an international business, Martin
:18:00. > :18:02.Gilbert controls billions of pounds for his clients says there is no
:18:03. > :18:05.reason to think that an independent Scotland will work do you agree with
:18:06. > :18:07.that? No. If you are buying a business you do a due diligence
:18:08. > :18:13.process, and if they don't answer all the questions you wouldn't buy
:18:14. > :18:16.the company. We are sitting here right now, less than 60 hours to go,
:18:17. > :18:19.and we still don't know any of the answers that we have been asking for
:18:20. > :18:21.the last few years. And these are important questions. I know you are
:18:22. > :18:32.going to have less corporation tax to pay? We don't know if we are
:18:33. > :18:37.going to have the pound, the currency that is a really big
:18:38. > :18:40.problems. The other thing Kirsty is, this is a really important question.
:18:41. > :18:42.Food banks in Scotland, I -- I really agree with food banks, we do
:18:43. > :18:50.children's charities and I know more about it than I have ever have. If
:18:51. > :18:53.we are talking about food banks are a problem, food prices which all the
:18:54. > :18:56.supermarkets have said. Not all of them, Morrisons and Tesco's have
:18:57. > :19:03.not? If you look at Tesco's website, and in Ireland, their prices are
:19:04. > :19:11.higher. That is a fact. If there is a yes vote, your headquarters are
:19:12. > :19:14.here but your manufacturing is in Sri Lanka, you said a yes vote would
:19:15. > :19:17.mean you would move your company out of Scotland, will you do that? I
:19:18. > :19:20.didn't say the company, I said me personally. I'm so nervous about the
:19:21. > :19:22.way things are going, this is a terrible, terrible time for
:19:23. > :19:25.business. We don't own the Gustafsson, the oil, we don't know
:19:26. > :19:30.any of these really fundamental questions. We are stronger together.
:19:31. > :19:41.Changes will be made and we will be even more. Y fundamental questions.
:19:42. > :19:44.We are stronger together. Changes will be made and we will be even
:19:45. > :19:47.more. In the face of the business question there is nothing the yes
:19:48. > :19:50.campaign can do because there is so much uncertainty? There is so much
:19:51. > :19:58.uncertainty, that is the paradigm, you have to factor that in. In terms
:19:59. > :20:00.of young people you won't have the 40,000 young people that leave here
:20:01. > :20:05.every year. And certainly we are going to attend to that. And also I
:20:06. > :20:10.think that is missing from this whole debate is actually the little
:20:11. > :20:19.guy, and the little gal, they are missing. What I have discovered in
:20:20. > :20:22.Dundee alone, for example in the last four weeks, over gone on to the
:20:23. > :20:23.social register, who have never been on the social register in Dundee.
:20:24. > :20:28.This is about disenfranchisement, this is about people who have been
:20:29. > :20:31.passed by. People who have been passed by consistent Governments.
:20:32. > :20:40.That is really everything as far as I'm concerned. Do you think there is
:20:41. > :20:42.a disenchantment with political parties. I know you are a Labour
:20:43. > :20:44.supporter, are you a yes supporter because you wish to see a Labour
:20:45. > :20:49.Government and independent Scotland? I'm a yes supporter because I want
:20:50. > :20:52.to see an independent Scotland. I'm a yes supporter because I want a new
:20:53. > :20:56.beginning and because I want to see an even field. Will you come back
:20:57. > :21:02.and live in Scotland? I will try to get a house here! The other thing is
:21:03. > :21:05.we have just come out of a recession, a really hard recession,
:21:06. > :21:11.business is just starting to recover. I fear this will put us in
:21:12. > :21:15.a depresidential. I honestly do believe it from a business point of
:21:16. > :21:19.view, listen to what the banks and analysis are saying, this is
:21:20. > :21:23.dangerous, really dangerous. One of the big unknowns is Europe, that is
:21:24. > :21:35.a big area of contention, it is whether Scotland would automatically
:21:36. > :21:37.be within the EU. Alex Salmond says it is ridiculous to suggest that
:21:38. > :21:39.Europe would want to exclude oil-rich, fish-rich and energy-rich
:21:40. > :21:42.Scotland, and the negotiations can be speedily sorted. Is it as
:21:43. > :21:46.straight forward as that? How easy would it be for Scotland to
:21:47. > :21:50.become an E United States, there is no precedent or provision within EU
:21:51. > :21:54.law to tell us what happens. Scotland would need a change in the
:21:55. > :22:06.European treaters in order to join. And every one of the union's 28
:22:07. > :22:08.members needs to agree to it, giving each member an effective veto. In
:22:09. > :22:10.its favour Scotland is already compliant with EU law, so
:22:11. > :22:14.negotiations in that sense would not be that difficult. However However,
:22:15. > :22:18.things get tricky when it comes to renegotiating some of the UK's
:22:19. > :22:22.historic benefits. Britain has a unique opt-out when it comes to the
:22:23. > :22:32.euro, Scottish nationalists would like that opt-out to apply to them,
:22:33. > :22:39.it might not. And the UK gets a substantial rebate from Europe, no
:22:40. > :22:42.guarantees there. Spain, Belgium and Italy all have their own domestic
:22:43. > :22:47.worries over independence, they may oppose Scotland's accession. The yes
:22:48. > :22:52.campaign see no great problem with negotiation, but an independent
:22:53. > :22:59.Scotland would still have to cross some unchartered waters in any
:23:00. > :23:08.voyage to separate EU membership. I'm joined from Madrid by the
:23:09. > :23:10.minister for Europe in Spanish affairs, Ingo Mendez De Vigo. If
:23:11. > :23:13.there is a yes vote in Scotland, what is the likelihood of Scotland
:23:14. > :23:20.being in the EU? Good evening from Madrid. Well, it is crystal clear
:23:21. > :23:24.that any partner member-state that leaves the member-state is out of
:23:25. > :23:39.the European Union. If they want to apply again, they would have to
:23:40. > :23:41.follow the procedure of article 49 of the treaties. That means the
:23:42. > :23:44.status of candidates should be granted to the new candidates. This
:23:45. > :23:52.decision has to be taken unanimously. Then it has to go into
:23:53. > :23:55.a negotiation of the 35 chanters, at the end of this negotiation there is
:23:56. > :24:05.also a vote, anonymously. If it is granted, it has to go to the
:24:06. > :24:08.European Parliament, where a vote is taken by the absolute majority of
:24:09. > :24:12.the members. If at the end of the process, a new vote is granted, it
:24:13. > :24:15.needs to go through the process of the 28 member states. When I was
:24:16. > :24:21.listening to myself, I was saying a lot of "ifs", more "ifs "that a poem
:24:22. > :24:29.by Kipling. Tell me, would Spain block's
:24:30. > :24:32.Scotland's entry? This is not a question of other member states, you
:24:33. > :24:41.have to follow the rules and the rules are very clear. You have to
:24:42. > :24:43.comply to article 49 and follow the a member-state of the European
:24:44. > :24:49.Union, following the process I just mentioned with a lot of steps taking
:24:50. > :24:59.the unanimity, it is a process that takes more or less five years. The
:25:00. > :25:01.newly-elected President of the Commission, Mr Juncker said, as a
:25:02. > :25:03.candidate now to become a member of the European Union, he said before
:25:04. > :25:07.the European Parliament it wouldn't happen in the next five years. There
:25:08. > :25:17.you have a hint of how long it might take. Tell me, do you think that in
:25:18. > :25:20.order to be allowed Trent or to negotiate even from within, Scotland
:25:21. > :25:25.would have to commit to using the euro? The euro is not just another
:25:26. > :25:37.policy of the union, there is a name of all member states to share -- an
:25:38. > :25:54.aim of all member states to share the common currency, and there is an
:25:55. > :25:57.exception, the United Kingdom has an opt-out granted back in 1995 to go
:25:58. > :26:02.out of the euro. But I don't see in the future for any member-state to
:26:03. > :26:04.be granted that possibility, if any member-state or candidate puts that
:26:05. > :26:06.on the table, I can tell you that all member states will look at it
:26:07. > :26:09.very carefully. Isn't part of the reason that you
:26:10. > :26:12.appear to be doubleful about Scotland's membership of the
:26:13. > :26:14.European Union the fact that you have got your own problems in Spain
:26:15. > :26:20.with Catalonia, and actually you do not want any encouragement of any
:26:21. > :26:24.accession. The thing is Scotland is already a nation. Yet you mention in
:26:25. > :26:33.Spain and the Scottish are completely different, for historical
:26:34. > :26:37.reasons and legal constitutional issues. Westminster allowed this
:26:38. > :26:42.referendum to take place. We respect it, in Spain the constitutional
:26:43. > :26:46.legal framework we have, and the self-determination was rejected by
:26:47. > :26:49.Spanish courts. If such a referendum should take place in Spain, first we
:26:50. > :26:53.have to revise the Spanish constitution.
:26:54. > :27:03.Thank you very much for joining us this evening.
:27:04. > :27:10.The SNP's Stewart Hosie, you heard it there. Five years absolute
:27:11. > :27:14.minimum. The the final question on Catalonia, when Spanish ministers
:27:15. > :27:29.intervene in the Scottish debate, it is less to do with Scottish
:27:30. > :27:34.self-Dell more to do with Spain. It only takes one country to block you?
:27:35. > :27:36.If he was talking about article 49, the other side of the argument for
:27:37. > :27:41.the honourary Director General of the European Commission has said
:27:42. > :27:44.that article 48 is the law under which this would happen, negotiation
:27:45. > :27:47.from within a treaty change. There is no provision to expel a state or
:27:48. > :27:50.part of a state from the EU, there is absolutely no provision to remove
:27:51. > :27:56.the rights of European citizens and we are all union citizens. You are
:27:57. > :27:59.not an entity on your own, you are part of the United Kingdom, this is
:28:00. > :28:00.part of the decision? When we become independent. If you become
:28:01. > :28:04.independent? Both countries will inherit the treaty obligations. We
:28:05. > :28:26.have always accepted there have to be negotiation, of course, but done
:28:27. > :28:28.under article 48 from win, not article 49 as a new entrant.
:28:29. > :28:38.Even if negotiations are under way, and I understand that negotiations
:28:39. > :28:40.appear to be under way with different countries, that is indeed
:28:41. > :28:42.what Alex Salmond said. The idea of 18 months is fanciful, isn't it.
:28:43. > :28:46.What you are fighting on all sides if you get a yes vote. You are
:28:47. > :28:52.fighting to use sterling, on the other hand you are fighting not to
:28:53. > :29:04.have the euro, you will be fighting an awful lot of battles won't you?
:29:05. > :29:06.The currency issue is very straight forward. Scotland's currency is as
:29:07. > :29:24.much as anyone els. For a whole variety of technical reasons, the
:29:25. > :29:26.?60 billion of imports from England, we will be using sterling. We are
:29:27. > :29:28.catagoric about that. And George Osborne is catagoric that you won't
:29:29. > :29:31.be? George is engage anything a grotesque bluff. As part of the euro
:29:32. > :29:34.you have to be part of the Exchange Rate Mechanism for two years, to be
:29:35. > :29:36.part of the ERM is voluntary, no-one in the Scottish Government is
:29:37. > :29:39.volunteering Scotland down In terms of the campaign, by and large it has
:29:40. > :29:42.been good-natured, but it hasn't always been good-natured, I wonder
:29:43. > :29:44.it is likely the vote will be very tight. There will be a very large
:29:45. > :29:47.number of people in Scotland, a minority, but a large minority, who
:29:48. > :29:49.will be unhappy with this vote? I have to say the way I would
:29:50. > :29:51.characterise this has been extraordinary. Hundreds of thousands
:29:52. > :29:53.of people engadgeted in politics, in communities the length and breadth.
:29:54. > :29:56.Country, in a way they have never, ever been before. Yes, there have
:29:57. > :29:58.been cross words, of course there have, it has been a long tiring
:29:59. > :30:08.debate. On the yes side we believe the vote will be a vote of national
:30:09. > :30:10.self-confidence, not just yes voters but everybody in Scotland. I think
:30:11. > :30:12.the First Minister was right to talk about team Scotland, to bring
:30:13. > :30:16.everybody together after the yes vote, driving a single direction.
:30:17. > :30:21.Many a slipped twixt cut and lip. We are not there yet. Partly because
:30:22. > :30:24.the vote is so energised and we know the turnout will be high. It is
:30:25. > :30:47.extraordinary, isn't it, there will be a divided country? I don't think
:30:48. > :31:14.it will be divided. We have 97% of the people on the electoral
:31:15. > :31:17.register, that is fantastic for democracy. It is an 80% first
:31:18. > :31:19.turnout, that is brilliant. We need to keep everyone engaged in
:31:20. > :31:21.democracy. I don't believe to the characterisation that the yes vote
:31:22. > :31:24.will lead to the division everyone is suggesting. The man with the
:31:25. > :31:27.jacket on, how do you feel. What do you think about the he divide? I
:31:28. > :31:30.think it has been devisive. There has been a lot of energy, we spoke
:31:31. > :31:32.to one in five people in Dundee east, and people are really engaged,
:31:33. > :31:35.but it is really about people concerned about the uncertainties to
:31:36. > :31:40.actually, they want to go forward with a political union, and it would
:31:41. > :31:43.be a really smooth transition into Europe, but no monetary union with
:31:44. > :31:47.Europe, but actually they don't want the political union with the UK but
:31:48. > :31:52.the monetary with the UK. People are really, it is, and if there is some
:31:53. > :32:02.friction on the doorstep, but there is a small minority I think there
:32:03. > :32:05.will be some unpleasantness, and there needs to be a bit of work of
:32:06. > :32:08.coming together. There needs to be a bit of work. What we are hearing is
:32:09. > :32:11.there is no doubt there is more uncertainty than certainty? With
:32:12. > :32:35.independence Scotland will have the certainty of all decisions being
:32:36. > :32:37.taken in Scotland. You don't know about currency or Europe? The
:32:38. > :32:39.currency will be sterling. (Laughter) We have explained what
:32:40. > :32:43.will happen in terms of the European Union. Expect and respect someone
:32:44. > :32:46.from another political party talking up uncertainty, that is political
:32:47. > :32:48.posturing, we will have the result in two days time. We are going to
:32:49. > :32:56.return to the referendum in a moment. First to another dominant
:32:57. > :33:03.story today, the brother of the aid worker David Haines, said he was
:33:04. > :33:05.most enthusiastic in his humanitarian road. 30 countries
:33:06. > :33:08.pledged to help Iraq combat IS with all they can. And it seems to have
:33:09. > :33:11.strengthened David Cameron's resolve to reopen British air strikes. What
:33:12. > :33:15.did the Paris summit actually achieve? It is a good question,
:33:16. > :33:32.there is this grand strategy that President Obama has talked about. A
:33:33. > :33:39.coalition the so called Islamic State. Last week there was a big
:33:40. > :33:42.meeting of the gulf and some Arab countries, next week the thing is
:33:43. > :33:44.supposed to be completed in New York on the fringes of the UN General
:33:45. > :33:47.Assembly. The Paris meeting was meant to be about dividing up who
:33:48. > :33:49.does what. So far the indications we have is people putting caveat, the
:33:50. > :33:59.French saying they would do air strikes only if there is a UN
:34:00. > :34:01.Security Council resolution to enable it. That doesn't seem likely.
:34:02. > :34:04.The Iraqi President chairing the events said they don't need foreign
:34:05. > :34:06.boots on the ground and not necessarily any for moren air
:34:07. > :34:10.strikes apart from the US ones that have begun. A lot of people saying
:34:11. > :34:20.what they won't do rather than what they will bring to the
:34:21. > :34:23.US-orchestrated coalition. Tell me why it was very important to notice
:34:24. > :34:26.the people who weren't there today as the people who were? Interesting
:34:27. > :34:30.ly the Russians were there, as part of this French attempt to try some
:34:31. > :34:48.how to get Security Council blessing for this. But the Iranians weren't
:34:49. > :34:52.there and the Turk were not there. This is critical in various
:34:53. > :34:52.respects. Iran is clearly a very influential country in Iraq, and
:34:53. > :34:54.they have a close connection with the Syrian Government. President
:34:55. > :34:57.Obama talk about excellenting air strikes into Syria, Iran has said
:34:58. > :36:14.there is no way to support that, Russia has also indicated they would
:36:15. > :36:19.not support that. The Turk, You can measure that Scotland with less than
:36:20. > :36:24.the population. Contributes 15% of the best and widely cited papers.
:36:25. > :36:32.Scotland has particular strength in the biological sciences. Especially
:36:33. > :36:39.here at dined university. For example Dundee University. The
:36:40. > :36:45.average medical searcher has 28% more impact than a world researcher,
:36:46. > :36:53.in Scotland it is 4 a %. Our influence is on the molecular and
:36:54. > :36:58.cellular basis of life. We do that to create understanding but also to
:36:59. > :37:02.turn the research findings into benefits for human society.
:37:03. > :37:07.Including improvements in health and designing and developing new drugs
:37:08. > :37:10.to treat a variety of diseases. Scotland's strength is not just
:37:11. > :37:14.high-end research, but training people in high-tech skills. Our
:37:15. > :37:18.games courses, what we are trying to do is make sure the students learn
:37:19. > :37:22.by doing. It is practice-based learning, and work in spaces such as
:37:23. > :37:29.we are at the moment, we use our industry contacts to make sure that
:37:30. > :37:33.people from industry come in and mentor the students. Dave Jones who
:37:34. > :37:38.came out with Lemmings and Grand Theft Auto was a student I taught in
:37:39. > :37:42.this space we're in at the moment. Scotland is good at linking business
:37:43. > :37:46.to study. In 2012 Scottish universities counted for 20% of the
:37:47. > :37:52.private income raised by spin-offs from universities. That is twice the
:37:53. > :37:55.UK average rate. Spin-offs have already created about 4,700 jobs in
:37:56. > :38:01.Scotland. That success explains why it is that
:38:02. > :38:06.even the yes campaign want Scotland to remain a common research area
:38:07. > :38:09.with the rest of the UK. One thing scientists agree on, whatever
:38:10. > :38:13.happens this week it would be a very bad idea to break up the union on
:38:14. > :38:16.science. But there is a bit of a problem. There are actually some
:38:17. > :38:21.strong incentives for politicians and some scientists not to play
:38:22. > :38:26.ball. First of all if you are a politician in London, why would you
:38:27. > :38:30.fund research in Dundee? It is a foreign country now? Second, if you
:38:31. > :38:34.are an English university you might not actually deal that much with
:38:35. > :38:39.Scotland. Only 5% of English research papers have a Scottish
:38:40. > :38:42.co-author. But because Scotland gets more money per head for research, if
:38:43. > :38:48.you can push Scotland out a little bit, you might get more money for
:38:49. > :38:51.your own university. Depending on how the independence
:38:52. > :38:59.talks went, a new Scottish state could need to make up for, for a
:39:00. > :39:03.start, ?360 million in lost UK-wide grants and depending on how EU
:39:04. > :39:08.negotiations went, ?60 million from Europe. Science is expensive and it
:39:09. > :39:16.is no sure thing either. New Zealand suffers a seepage of talent because
:39:17. > :39:20.young people leave to do PhDs or other research work, from New
:39:21. > :39:23.Zealand to Australia and they tend not to come back. Something similar
:39:24. > :39:27.happens with spin-outs from the universities. Because the New
:39:28. > :39:30.Zealand economy doesn't have enough venture capital to support
:39:31. > :39:33.second-stage development of those. So they tend, if they are
:39:34. > :39:36.successful, to end up going to Australia to get further funding.
:39:37. > :39:44.That is a risk which Scotland would have to face. Scottish universities
:39:45. > :39:47.are great, but the road to a high-tech future is very far from
:39:48. > :39:58.clear. With me now are two Dundee science
:39:59. > :40:04.success stories, we have a programme and games creator, creating Lemmings
:40:05. > :40:09.and Grand Theft Auto, we also have Stephen Watson.
:40:10. > :40:13.Doreen Cantrell, what do you think would be the impact of the yes vote
:40:14. > :40:17.on the research programmes you are involved in? The impact of the yes
:40:18. > :40:20.vote would create a lot of uncertainty. Because there have been
:40:21. > :40:24.no clear answers as to whether or not the Scottish Government will
:40:25. > :40:28.make up the funding gap that was mentioned in the previous interview.
:40:29. > :40:36.But can I give you the idea of the scale of the funding gap. In
:40:37. > :40:40.2011/2012, the University of Dundee was awarded ?120 million of research
:40:41. > :40:44.funding, only ?20 million came from the Scottish Government. The
:40:45. > :40:47.remainder came from UK source, it is not clear whether the Scottish
:40:48. > :40:51.Government will have the capacity to make up that difference. And do you
:40:52. > :40:56.think that then you would lose good researchers and scientists?
:40:57. > :41:01.Absolutely. Any degree of uncertainty would create a vacuum
:41:02. > :41:10.and there would be a loss of key talent. Just to interrupt just now
:41:11. > :41:14.to say we apologise for the swearing in the background, it is beyond our
:41:15. > :41:19.control. ? 20 million coming from the
:41:20. > :41:21.Scottish Government, ?100 million coming from elsewhere, what Doreen
:41:22. > :41:23.Cantrell is saying, in an independent Scotland you couldn't be
:41:24. > :41:28.sure of that funding, you couldn't be sure it would go to another
:41:29. > :41:31.university, and subsequently some of our best scientists could go
:41:32. > :41:37.elsewhere? I couldn't disagree more. The big picture is the research
:41:38. > :41:43.council UK spends ?3 billion a year annually, Scotland contributes to
:41:44. > :41:46.that through its tax receipt, approximately 10% annually in tax
:41:47. > :41:52.receipts and receives 11% of the funding. The funding differential is
:41:53. > :41:56.only ?30 million, the Scottish Government is paying its way and
:41:57. > :42:00.this small gap can be made way for in the independent Scotland. I would
:42:01. > :42:05.challenge that in the life sciences arena, that is the cornerstone in
:42:06. > :42:12.the Scottish economy, it is the hope for future development, in the life
:42:13. > :42:17.sciences area in membered a -- medical research which is why we are
:42:18. > :42:20.leading. Surely people want to come to you for being world leaders not
:42:21. > :42:24.whether or not you are in the United Kingdom? That is true, but there is
:42:25. > :42:30.no precedent for this degree of cross-border funding. One other
:42:31. > :42:33.Dundee was phenomenally successful was the gaming, all the
:42:34. > :42:39.undergraduates that did gaming and you came out of it to do Grand Theft
:42:40. > :42:43.Auto and Lemmings, would you woo it matter to you and Rock Star the
:42:44. > :42:54.company you work for, whether or not Scotland was independent? I don't
:42:55. > :43:04.think so. (Hauting Shouting in the background) We suffered from brain
:43:05. > :43:07.drain in the 1980s and 1990, and we got funding from the Government and
:43:08. > :43:11.that stopped. It was critical that you got money from the Scottish
:43:12. > :43:15.Government, presumably what you would have to to look at is in an
:43:16. > :43:19.independent Scotland the claims on the Government would be so
:43:20. > :43:27.phenomenal, do you think that the whole computer gaming progress would
:43:28. > :43:31.be at the top or bottom of the pile? I don't really know. It is going to
:43:32. > :43:35.be a bigger pot to give out from any way. What Doreen is saying is people
:43:36. > :43:40.would leave? I don't think so, Dundee has shown that. We have got a
:43:41. > :43:45.large computer game base in Dundee. It started very small with the brain
:43:46. > :43:50.drain and it has grown. You know people that would leave? I know
:43:51. > :43:54.people that would leave. 20-30% of my staff are funded by salaries paid
:43:55. > :43:58.by UK-based charities and research councils. We do not know whether
:43:59. > :44:02.that funding will continue. I wish we did. Is there any way to talk
:44:03. > :44:07.yourselves down though? What I'm most concerned about is if the vote
:44:08. > :44:11.is yes, that scientists who should be focussing on solving medical
:44:12. > :44:16.problems that will change global health practices will be focussing
:44:17. > :44:20.on trying to maintain funding, to maintain what we already have. I see
:44:21. > :44:25.no advantage whatsoever. And if I can make a point. The pots, there is
:44:26. > :44:31.no evidence the pot size will change. The Scottish Government has
:44:32. > :44:34.had the freedom to increase research funding in Scottish universities
:44:35. > :44:40.under devolution as it stands, they have not. Again I disagree. First we
:44:41. > :44:46.could refer to Sir David Carter a leading luminary of the no campaign,
:44:47. > :44:50.on radio Scotland he stated the Scottish Government fully recognises
:44:51. > :44:55.the importance of bioresearch to the Scottish universities and the
:44:56. > :45:03.economy. A recent pot of 1,000 academic, and the vast majority, the
:45:04. > :45:09.difference was more than 13% were saying. Which number is this 13%. It
:45:10. > :45:14.was 67% were saying that actually there would be a problem with
:45:15. > :45:22.funding? So again I think that once the data has been scrutinised and
:45:23. > :45:28.Academics For Yes is publishing evidence. They need to get on with
:45:29. > :45:32.it? It will be out in 36 hours, in the hands of any academic we will
:45:33. > :45:37.provide the data. How do you make sure in an independent Scotland you
:45:38. > :45:40.keep creative people, particularly in cities like Dundee where you have
:45:41. > :45:46.the reputation? Provide the jobs and the work. Dundee's academic sector
:45:47. > :45:49.turns out graduates, they go to companies and spin off into their
:45:50. > :45:54.own companies and Dundee's gaming sector has done that for decades
:45:55. > :45:57.now, it is a huge centre for gaming because of this cycle you get coming
:45:58. > :46:01.from universities. Thank you all very much indeed. Following the
:46:02. > :46:05.weekend polls showing the votes are on a knife edge, some big-star
:46:06. > :46:11.supporters of the union, led by Eddie Izzard and Dan Snow, scrambled
:46:12. > :46:15.a rally in Trafalgar Square urging Scotland not to go.
:46:16. > :46:22.Everyone is in limbo, how is the big vote going to affect life north and
:46:23. > :46:28.south of the border? There is a piper here in Trafalgar Square most
:46:29. > :46:34.day, perhaps the tourist who is want the full UK experience as it is now,
:46:35. > :46:39.but only on these shores for a matter of hours. Under the slogan
:46:40. > :46:43."let's stay together", a group of well known personalities took to the
:46:44. > :46:50.square to voice their support for the union. What I'm going to do is a
:46:51. > :46:55.bit of light-weight scaremongering. If Scotland enters the EU on its
:46:56. > :47:04.own, here is a warning to Scotland, The Proclaimers will have to walk
:47:05. > :47:10.800kms. And back. A total of 1600kms. It is a nightmare vision of
:47:11. > :47:17.the future. Our message today is that we believe and we hope that the
:47:18. > :47:21.Scottish people hear is "let's stay together". We want to say with the
:47:22. > :47:26.people in Dundee we love sharing a country with them, it is the 21st
:47:27. > :47:29.century, it is global problems, we have corporations that can ruin our
:47:30. > :47:35.economies, we need to work together on these things and not reinstate a
:47:36. > :47:39.border that was hacked out by two French-speaking warlords in the
:47:40. > :47:43.early Middle Ages. Should you be up over the border where people have a
:47:44. > :47:47.vote? I have been up over the border. And the Scottish people say
:47:48. > :47:51.why should I listen to an English person saying that. People in
:47:52. > :47:54.Scotland can't sense what people outside Scotland feel. It is
:47:55. > :47:58.difficult to sense that, we thought we would do that. Before there was a
:47:59. > :48:01.United States, a U nations, before there was a united this, that and
:48:02. > :48:06.the other, there was a United Kingdom. An Irishman with an
:48:07. > :48:10.honourary knighthood had this say too. If they are fed up with
:48:11. > :48:15.Westminster, we are fed up with Westminster, the MPs are fed up, it
:48:16. > :48:18.is not really working, we do need a new compact, but we need to work
:48:19. > :48:30.that out together. There is no point going off in a huff. "We are
:48:31. > :48:33.family", "we say no" say the crowd. Trafalgar Square with the great and
:48:34. > :48:39.good. I have great good in the audience. Looking at Eddie Izzard
:48:40. > :48:43.there, the line was "please don't go", if the tenor had been that from
:48:44. > :48:48.the beginning would it have changed minds? No, I think if the devo max
:48:49. > :48:52.had been on the paper a year ago a lot more people would have gone for
:48:53. > :48:55.that. I would just like to tell the English people down in Trafalgar
:48:56. > :49:00.Square, we are actually not going anywhere, we will still here. Who
:49:01. > :49:10.else thinks that devo max if it had been in the pan at the would paper n
:49:11. > :49:13.-- on the paper it would have been different? I think things like
:49:14. > :49:18.federalism can be tried but you need to vote no. What will happen in the
:49:19. > :49:20.next few days of the campaign? The problem with more powers is it has
:49:21. > :49:24.to get through Westminster. We already know large numbers of Tory
:49:25. > :49:26.MPs will block it and there will be no appetite whatsoever for
:49:27. > :49:31.constitutional discussion if there is a no vote. How much is this a
:49:32. > :49:35.disillusionment generally with Westminster politics, how it is
:49:36. > :49:41.actually prosecuted? Not really. The gentleman in the middle with the
:49:42. > :49:47.anorack? The Government policy is not to give Scotland further powers.
:49:48. > :49:52.We can't be saying federalism is there. The reason federalism was not
:49:53. > :49:56.on the ballot is they thought it would block the thing, now it is not
:49:57. > :49:59.good they may vote yes. We have a backbench MP who happens to be a
:50:00. > :50:02.former Prime Minister saying there will be no powers, he's not a
:50:03. > :50:05.Government minister or in power, where is the guarantee there will be
:50:06. > :50:08.any discussion of further powers if there is a no vote. Some of the no
:50:09. > :50:12.side here, and there is no guarantee, is there a guarantee of
:50:13. > :50:16.more powers if you vote no? I think there is a guarantee of more powers.
:50:17. > :50:19.The Labour Party is the party of devolution, we wouldn't have a
:50:20. > :50:23.Scottish Parliament without it. I think in terms of Westminster, I
:50:24. > :50:30.think there is English people, where I grew up there is Northern Irish
:50:31. > :50:35.people and Welsh people who are disillusioned too, the voting yes is
:50:36. > :50:38.an optimisim, we can change the United Kingdom for everybody living
:50:39. > :50:45.in it not just the northern half of it. It is too late for me after all
:50:46. > :50:48.these years of a Conservative Government, it is time to go for
:50:49. > :50:51.hope rather than the fear that we have been getting through the
:50:52. > :51:00.television, through the media, every single day. That's enough for me.
:51:01. > :51:08.That's just about it from Broughty Ferry, we are packing up the
:51:09. > :51:20.Newsnight tent and pitching in the only Conservative redoubt in
:51:21. > :51:26.Dumfries and Galloway. Seeing us out is Tommy Smith from the Scottish
:51:27. > :51:40.National Jazz Orchestra, playing us out with Culludon Moor Suit.