:00:00. > :00:14.The noes win on the back of a wow, will Westminster keep its word? I
:00:15. > :00:18.think the people of Scotland should told the leadership at Westminster's
:00:19. > :00:23.feet to the fire. Now the millions of voices in England must be heard.
:00:24. > :00:26.Westminster will never go 50-50 with Scotland, it is never going to
:00:27. > :00:30.happen, they are big daddy. It means big change in our politics and
:00:31. > :00:36.constitution. We must absolutely accept that things are never going
:00:37. > :00:40.to be the same again. As the defeated Alex Salmond steps aside,
:00:41. > :00:48.we will ask what mice will Scotland extract for the price of the union.
:00:49. > :00:52.Here the Scottish referendum is provoking constitutional upheaval
:00:53. > :01:00.across the UK, with talk of English votes for English laws and even its
:01:01. > :01:11.own parliament, is it just talk? Tam Dayell has been pointing our our
:01:12. > :01:16.constitutional flaws for years. Good evening from Edinburgh, the
:01:17. > :01:21.country had no sooner woken up some what dazed and drained from the
:01:22. > :01:23.intensity of the past few weeks than Alex Salmond, Scotland's First
:01:24. > :01:27.Minister took everyone by surprise. Not even his friends saw his
:01:28. > :01:30.resignation coming. There will be a new First Minister of Scotland and
:01:31. > :01:35.it is very likely it will be a woman, his deputy, Nicola Sturgeon,
:01:36. > :01:40.that is for the future. Today for many people in Scotland, politicised
:01:41. > :01:46.for the first time, it is still about digesting the result, and a no
:01:47. > :01:50.to independence and wiping away tears of sorrow and join, and asking
:01:51. > :01:54.what will change. It has been a strange day in
:01:55. > :01:59.Scotland's biggest city, where voters chose yes, even though the
:02:00. > :02:02.country chose no. There has been disappointment and some celebration,
:02:03. > :02:07.some relief, but also commiseration. And as well as that, senior
:02:08. > :02:11.political resignation, which took many believers in the yes cause by
:02:12. > :02:17.complete surprise. Also tonight in the city's main square, appalling
:02:18. > :02:21.scenes, minor scuffles, but a group of unionists appeared to be
:02:22. > :02:25.organised arriving in George Square intent on causing trouble. The
:02:26. > :02:28.tensions between them were mainly between them and the police rather
:02:29. > :02:33.than a tense stand-off between yes and no. All the same it has been an
:02:34. > :02:40.unpleasant end to a day when most people have been absorbing the
:02:41. > :02:46.result. And a complete contrast to the somber but peaceful scenes in
:02:47. > :02:55.George Square, when yes voters heard the news of Alex Salmond's
:02:56. > :03:00.resignation. Events that were captured using flash photo--y.
:03:01. > :03:04.The yes campaign's ad hoc and disappointed heart, tears and anger,
:03:05. > :03:09.not just for Alex Salmond, but for their defeat. Salmond is saying he's
:03:10. > :03:12.standing down because David Cameron is refusing to do a second reading
:03:13. > :03:15.of the bill that would have given us the powers that they promised they
:03:16. > :03:21.would give us and that's why he's standing down. Alex Salmond's
:03:22. > :03:26.departure was not inevitable, although last night his
:03:27. > :03:29.disappointment was blatant. But today standing down with
:03:30. > :03:33.characteristic guile, he played to his country and his cause. It has
:03:34. > :03:37.been the privilege of my life to serve as First Minister, as I said
:03:38. > :03:41.often enough during this referendum campaign, this is a process which is
:03:42. > :03:46.not about me, or the SNP or any political party, it is much, much
:03:47. > :03:52.more important than that. The position is this, we lost the
:03:53. > :03:56.referendum vote, but Scotland can still carry the political
:03:57. > :04:07.initiative. Scotland can still emerge as the real winner. For me as
:04:08. > :04:12.leader my time is nearly over. But for Scotland the campaign continues
:04:13. > :04:15.and the dream shall never die. Have you heard that Alex Salmond has
:04:16. > :04:20.resigned what do you think about that? It is a shame to see him go, I
:04:21. > :04:24.have never been an SNP voter but I think he was a great politician. It
:04:25. > :04:29.is unfair, he has worked really hard for this for so long. He said he's
:04:30. > :04:39.standing down, he will leave? Are you making this up? I'm not making
:04:40. > :04:43.it up. The most dynamic and effective politician we have had
:04:44. > :04:48.here for the last seven years, you cannot knock that. Few here believe
:04:49. > :04:54.Alex Salmond deserves any kind of retribution, and his political exit
:04:55. > :04:58.shouldn't diminish his fundamental achievement, taking the SNP from
:04:59. > :05:02.what was a fringe party, to the Government at Hollyrood, and then
:05:03. > :05:06.creating a political movement with enghee that captured nearly half of
:05:07. > :05:16.the Scottish population. Yet a majority of voters found his
:05:17. > :05:33.arguments wanting. Yes, the number of votes 1,617,989. No the number of
:05:34. > :05:36.votes, 2,000926. The arguments won out, what currency would an
:05:37. > :05:41.independent Scotland use, were pensions safe? What about the ties
:05:42. > :05:51.of union. We have chosen unity over division and positive change rather
:05:52. > :05:56.than needless separation. Today is a momentous result for Scotland and
:05:57. > :06:00.also for the United Kingdom as a whole. By confirming our place
:06:01. > :06:06.within the union, we have reaffirmed all that we have in common. And the
:06:07. > :06:09.political divide may take time to fade, Glasgow, Scotland's biggest
:06:10. > :06:14.city, with the proud industrial as well as political past, was one of
:06:15. > :06:20.the places where voters chose independence, so why did no win? We
:06:21. > :06:23.are being asked to vote for no currency, there was never going to
:06:24. > :06:28.be a currency union, it was stupidity on stilts what was being
:06:29. > :06:32.put forward. And I'm actually surprised it wasn't a greater no. I
:06:33. > :06:36.think it is safe to say fear, sometimes a bit of selfishness,
:06:37. > :06:39.self-preservation, I know a lot of people who did say they were voting
:06:40. > :06:44.no it was about looking after themselves. But even in Glasgow that
:06:45. > :06:48.decision has brought quiet relief. This city chose yes, and the
:06:49. > :06:53.unionists' nerves of the last few weeks were very real. But we know
:06:54. > :06:56.now the vast majority of people who said no made their minds up more
:06:57. > :07:02.than a year ago, and simply didn't budge. Support for independence was
:07:03. > :07:08.always more fluid and in the end, yesterday, simply was not enough.
:07:09. > :07:12.Despite the three UK parties promises of more power for Scotland,
:07:13. > :07:25.for some, the chance of change has gone. I don't know what we are
:07:26. > :07:33.fighting for. So... I thought I would come down here and see people
:07:34. > :07:42.standing around and pushing for something but there's nothing.
:07:43. > :07:47.That's been filled on some of Glasgow's street with old prejudice.
:07:48. > :07:53.Tonight a stand-off, not between yes and no campaigners, but what appears
:07:54. > :07:57.to be a unionist group of hooligans bearing Union Jacks, spoiling for a
:07:58. > :08:05.fight. Stirring anomosities of the past. The BBC's Alan Little, who has
:08:06. > :08:08.been following the referendum from the start is here. We are talking
:08:09. > :08:11.about all sorts of implications for the unfortunately kingdom, but
:08:12. > :08:16.nobody saw Alex Salmond's resignation coming? When I came off
:08:17. > :08:18.air with you last night, the SNP and Scottish Government special advisers
:08:19. > :08:23.were still planning for the victory speech, that would take place in 3.
:08:24. > :08:26.04 in the morning. And we were making preparations to go and film
:08:27. > :08:29.that. It all changed in the middle of the night. When you think about
:08:30. > :08:37.it, it has been an extraordinary career. He bequeaths his successor,
:08:38. > :08:42.almost certainly Nicola Sturgeon, 1. 6 million people voting for Scotland
:08:43. > :08:45.to leave the United Kingdom, a decade ago that was impossible. He's
:08:46. > :08:49.First Minister of Scotland, not just the leader of the SNP and a lot of
:08:50. > :08:53.people feel that perhaps he led them all wait up and there has been a
:08:54. > :08:57.vote, but yes he's still the First Minister, do they feel in a sense
:08:58. > :09:01.destablised and like that fella said, a bit shell shocked by it all?
:09:02. > :09:06.People are shell shocked by it, it happened a few hours ago and nobody
:09:07. > :09:10.saw it coming. The implications haven't settled in. He did this
:09:11. > :09:15.before, he resigned as SNP leader, and he wasn't First Minister, and we
:09:16. > :09:19.never found out why he went. After his first ten-year stint as leader
:09:20. > :09:24.he as an unreadable figure. He had to make a decision, go now or fight
:09:25. > :09:29.the next election for 2016 and stay on for a few more years. Do I stay
:09:30. > :09:34.on or go at a high water mark of this achievement. Looks like that
:09:35. > :09:39.was the calculation, who knows. What he said today, he said he would be
:09:40. > :09:43.the SMP, but he believed you didn't have to be at the pinnacle all the
:09:44. > :09:46.time. Nicola Sturgeon became on in leaps and bounds and she was the
:09:47. > :09:52.more persuasive figure in the debate. She's out there and ready.
:09:53. > :09:56.Just after 7.00 this morning, David Cameron stood outside Downing Street
:09:57. > :09:58.and announced what he called a devolution revolution, which would
:09:59. > :10:02.deliver a balanced settlement and quick. We have heard the settled
:10:03. > :10:06.will of the Scottish people, and now the voices of the millions in
:10:07. > :10:11.England must be heard, he said. This rebalancing is designed, in part,
:10:12. > :10:16.finally to nail the famous West Lothian Question, first raised by
:10:17. > :10:21.Tam Dayell in 1977, ahead of a 1979 referendum on devolution. Why can
:10:22. > :10:24.MPs on Scotland can vote in legislation that applies only to
:10:25. > :10:28.England, such as education, but English MPs cannot vote in the same
:10:29. > :10:32.set of affairs. That will now end, says the Prime Minister, but how. I
:10:33. > :10:38.went to see Tam Dayell and asked if after 37 years he now felt
:10:39. > :10:46.vindicated? I don't go round saying "I told you so", I feel rather in
:10:47. > :10:52.the position of Cassandra, do you remember Cassandra, she warned the
:10:53. > :10:59.trojans of impending doom. The trouble was that nobody believed
:11:00. > :11:06.her. And I was in that position because you remember very well that
:11:07. > :11:09.there was considerable, not unpleasant, but ridicule about my
:11:10. > :11:16.view. Why did you not speak out during the campaign? There were
:11:17. > :11:21.people going out night after night to try their best to save the union.
:11:22. > :11:26.And it would be an absolutely betrayal by me of their efforts if I
:11:27. > :11:37.was to come on your programme, you asked me five days in succession,
:11:38. > :11:46.and say what I really thought that the promises made by the three party
:11:47. > :11:49.leaders were absolute rubbish. And they shouldn't have made them. And
:11:50. > :11:57.Gordon Brown should not have made the speech that he did without the
:11:58. > :12:01.authority. It is interesting you say he didn't have the authority to say
:12:02. > :12:03.what he did, some people say his intervention helped the Better
:12:04. > :12:09.Together vote in the end, but you don't think he had the authority to
:12:10. > :12:14.make that promise? I don't know whether his intervention made a
:12:15. > :12:24.difference. It may have been a plus, it may have been neutral, but my
:12:25. > :12:27.hunch is that it was a minus. With these last-minute promises some
:12:28. > :12:32.people thought well look we might as well go for the SNP and the real
:12:33. > :12:36.McCoy, rather than all these last-minute promises. But that
:12:37. > :12:42.didn't happen in the end, but the last-minute promises are here with
:12:43. > :12:49.us. What do you make of the way that David Cameron has reacted today? I
:12:50. > :12:56.don't think that the timetable is at all real. You see when it comes to
:12:57. > :13:00.England I'm for the abolition of the Scottish Parliament, I'm not
:13:01. > :13:05.negative at all. I will tell you why. Those people up in
:13:06. > :13:10.Aberdeenshire want to be run from Aberdeen, and not from Edinburgh.
:13:11. > :13:14.Finally the West Lothian Question is to be answered, with the idea that
:13:15. > :13:20.there will be English votes for English MPs? What would happen in
:13:21. > :13:23.the event of a Labour Government trying to enact domestic legislation
:13:24. > :13:33.do you think without the aid of Scottish Labour MPs? I think it
:13:34. > :13:40.would be wrong in principle for a Labour Government to impose, because
:13:41. > :13:45.that's the correct word legislation in England, using a Scottish
:13:46. > :13:51.majority, where those Scottish MPs had absolutely no say in their own
:13:52. > :13:55.place. But what should Ed Miliband do? Because he now says that he will
:13:56. > :14:02.look at any proposals put forward, what role should he play? I think
:14:03. > :14:11.he's got to face up to it that it is deeply wrong to try to pretend that
:14:12. > :14:16.Scottish MPs should vote decisively in English affairs. Even if it means
:14:17. > :14:19.an in coming English Government could not get legislation through,
:14:20. > :14:23.that is something they would have to deal with? It is a question of right
:14:24. > :14:27.and wrong. If the West Lothian Question, when you have done so much
:14:28. > :14:30.in your career, the West Lothian Question has been defining, you talk
:14:31. > :14:36.about Cassandra, but the defining moment. Surely you must be pleased
:14:37. > :14:39.that here you are, able to discuss this now, at this point where
:14:40. > :14:47.something radical is supposed to be happening. No, pleased would be the
:14:48. > :14:53.wrong word. I mean I'm extremely concerned about the future of
:14:54. > :14:58.Scotland. But as a parliamentarian, you must at least surely applaud the
:14:59. > :15:04.turnout, because people felt politically engaged? I certainly
:15:05. > :15:10.applaud the turnout. But were they politically engaged. They may have
:15:11. > :15:15.been politically engaged on issues such as deprivation and the health
:15:16. > :15:18.service. Were they politically engaged in the constitutional
:15:19. > :15:23.arrangements of the United Kingdom, I think less. It is just as well you
:15:24. > :15:25.are still politically engaged in the constitutional issues then, isn't
:15:26. > :15:33.it? Yes, but it doesn't mean that the rest of the world are. Yes, I'm
:15:34. > :15:43.very engaged in it. Because I don't want the break up of Britain. Tam
:15:44. > :15:48.Dayell, thank you very much indeed. How is Westminster reacting to all
:15:49. > :15:53.of this? Here is Andrew Neil in the London studio? Thank you.
:15:54. > :15:57.The existential threat has lifted but the remaking of the British
:15:58. > :16:02.constitution has just begun. Westminster's political leaders were
:16:03. > :16:05.so panicked by the prospect of a yes vote that they outsourced further
:16:06. > :16:10.Scottish devolution to Gordon Brown. He dusted down a blueprint from one
:16:11. > :16:14.of his old books which he said was nothing less than a modern version
:16:15. > :16:18.of Home Rule. Tory backbenchers and a few cabinet ministers furious at
:16:19. > :16:22.the lack of consultation said to David Cameron, fair enough, but only
:16:23. > :16:33.if England is cut in on the devolutionary action too.
:16:34. > :16:37.A new dawn this morning for Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom
:16:38. > :16:41.too. For some days Westminster politics had been suspended as the
:16:42. > :16:47.three political parties pulled together to keep Britain together.
:16:48. > :16:51.But where there was harmony 24 hours Earl yes, at dawn, David Cameron
:16:52. > :16:55.brought discord. We have heard the voice of Scotland, and now the
:16:56. > :17:02.millions of voices of England must also be heard. The question of
:17:03. > :17:09.English votes for English laws, the so called West Lothian Question,
:17:10. > :17:13.requires a decisive answer. Discord because targeting Scottish and
:17:14. > :17:18.largely Labour MPs was something Ed Miliband just wouldn't or couldn't
:17:19. > :17:22.support. The man who used to live on this street, Gordon Brown, had in
:17:23. > :17:26.the last ten days created problems for his successors, for David
:17:27. > :17:32.Cameron the Tory Party were in a fury at Gordon Brown's plan to hand
:17:33. > :17:36.powers to Scotland and not England. Instead, the focus switched to
:17:37. > :17:40.Labour's response. We will deliver on stronger powers, for a stronger
:17:41. > :17:45.Scottish Parliament, a stronger Scotland, and I know that all-party
:17:46. > :17:52.leaders will meet their commitments to deliver on that promise. He
:17:53. > :17:55.didn't address the English question, Labour was more Scottish MPs and
:17:56. > :17:59.doesn't want to. After the cross-party truce of the last few
:18:00. > :18:04.weeks David Cameron performed a dawn raid on Ed Miliband, at 7.00 in the
:18:05. > :18:07.morning he announced plans to protect English MPs and English laws
:18:08. > :18:12.challenging the Labour leader in two days. If Ed Miliband doesn't move to
:18:13. > :18:17.protect English MPs, he's vulnerable to take from UKIP, and if Ed
:18:18. > :18:20.Miliband does move to limit the powers of Scottish MPs, he makes a
:18:21. > :18:26.life of future Labour Governments very difficult indeed. This morning,
:18:27. > :18:29.with one eye on the last vote, the Scottish referendum, David Cameron
:18:30. > :18:32.had his eyes firmly on the next vote, the general election.
:18:33. > :18:36.William Hague will now work out how to give more power to England at the
:18:37. > :18:40.same time as to Scotland by next January. This man, who represents
:18:41. > :18:44.the Tory backbenchers has some ideas.
:18:45. > :18:47.It makes sense to have a separate English parliament with all of the
:18:48. > :18:52.cost, bureaucracy that would go with that, but I think it would be
:18:53. > :18:56.perfectly possible to have English members of the Westminster
:18:57. > :18:57.parliament sitting part of the week, perhaps, on English legislation and
:18:58. > :19:04.part of the week on United Kingdom matters.
:19:05. > :19:09.But in a two-tier parliament a Tory administration would be more likely
:19:10. > :19:13.on English-only days, and Labour administrations on UK days. Which
:19:14. > :19:19.one is more important isn't clear? You don't preserve the union with a
:19:20. > :19:21.hollowed out parliament that doesn't sustain properly a national
:19:22. > :19:24.executive. That would be the consequence of this idea that has
:19:25. > :19:28.been mooted, that one has a UK parliament that only sits one or two
:19:29. > :19:32.days a week as a national parliament, the rest of the time it
:19:33. > :19:37.is an English parliament only. I would be very, very against that.
:19:38. > :19:41.Labour, furious at what they thought was Tory political opportunism, by
:19:42. > :19:44.the afternoon came out for a constitutional committee. Labour
:19:45. > :19:47.were furious at the Tories political opportunism today. By the afternoon
:19:48. > :19:52.they finally came out for a constitutional committee. We need
:19:53. > :19:55.significantly great devolution of power in England, because I think
:19:56. > :19:59.that we have seen devolution in Scotland and Wales work, and weed
:20:00. > :20:05.into to see that greater devolution in England. We have set out
:20:06. > :20:10.proposals to devolve to English local Government and want to go
:20:11. > :20:16.further. The Liberal Democrats have embraced a grand committee, Lord
:20:17. > :20:19.McKay will chair, he will allow non-English MPs to stay in
:20:20. > :20:22.parliament. Despite first move advantage, Downing Street still has
:20:23. > :20:28.questions to answer from its own. At the moment devolved politicians have
:20:29. > :20:34.a free hit. They can promise all sorts of exciting public goods and
:20:35. > :20:37.lay the blame of non-delivery on nasty, horrid selfish Westminster
:20:38. > :20:42.politicians. I want to put the stick back on them, it is important voting
:20:43. > :20:47.in a devolved assembly, you vote on how much they will tax you or give
:20:48. > :20:50.you, that should be the thread running across the settlement. Until
:20:51. > :20:56.we can get that into all constituent starts in the UKick Dom, I wouldn't
:20:57. > :21:01.go in a rush anywhere, and the first thing is to recall parliament.
:21:02. > :21:04.Labour won't match Tory plans on English laws, believe arcane issues
:21:05. > :21:11.don't decide elections. They are right, they don't. But UKIP might
:21:12. > :21:15.ensure English identity does. Parliament will have to watch out
:21:16. > :21:21.that the English, the happy men of the blessed plot stay that way. The
:21:22. > :21:24.Tories' plan nor more devolution means running a coach and horse
:21:25. > :21:28.through the rest of our constitution in a matter of weeks or months, we
:21:29. > :21:33.thought they might like to come on the programme and explain what they
:21:34. > :21:37.are doing, but they declined. It is only a 1,000-year-old constitution.
:21:38. > :21:42.We speak to Chuka Umunna, welcome to the Newsnight. We have got to
:21:43. > :21:46.Scottish votes for Scottish laws, with more devolution we will have
:21:47. > :21:50.more Scottish votes for Scottish law, why not English votes for
:21:51. > :21:53.English laws? Let's see the proposals from the Government. This
:21:54. > :22:00.is a great moment. It is good that people are talking about our
:22:01. > :22:04.politics, how we do things, sorting out this system we have. What is
:22:05. > :22:07.wrong with the principle of English votes for English laws? I think the
:22:08. > :22:10.problem with the package we have just seen is it is obsessed with
:22:11. > :22:15.Westminster. You have MPs talking aboutp me. Actually what we need to
:22:16. > :22:19.be doing is pushing power down and out of Westminster into our regions,
:22:20. > :22:27.into the rest of the country. Let's give power to the people. Why can't
:22:28. > :22:31.that done been the context of a Scottish Demos, and why not an
:22:32. > :22:35.English one that can do that if it wants? We haven't seen the exact
:22:36. > :22:39.proposals they will come forward. What is wrong with the principle?
:22:40. > :22:43.Let me say, the Scottish have just vote today remain part of our union,
:22:44. > :22:48.and now this seeks to exclude Scottish MPs. What we want to come
:22:49. > :22:52.up with a constitutional settlement that is inclusive and gives people
:22:53. > :22:58.power. Another thing that hasn't been noted on this I'm a London MP,
:22:59. > :23:02.there are certain issues which are devolved down to the mayor and the
:23:03. > :23:06.Greater London Authority. Are you going to therefore suggest I should
:23:07. > :23:09.be excluded from things. The power of the London Assembly is nothing
:23:10. > :23:13.like the Scottish Parliament? It is a red herring the London Assembly
:23:14. > :23:19.and you know it? What about Welsh MPs with the Welsh Assembly and
:23:20. > :23:23.Northern Irish MPs. Perhaps Perhaps they shouldn't vote on English
:23:24. > :23:28.matters? We don't want to have a second class of member. But we have
:23:29. > :23:32.a second class of MP at the moment, Scottish MPs cannot vote on any
:23:33. > :23:35.matters to do with health and education that affect their own
:23:36. > :23:39.constituencies, English MPs can on their constituencies. There are two
:23:40. > :23:43.classes of MPs. Let me ask you this point, if Scotland gets to set its
:23:44. > :23:47.own income tax, which is one of the proposals of Gordon Brown's Home
:23:48. > :23:52.Rule, the parliament in Edinburgh will set its own income tax for
:23:53. > :23:56.Scots, why should Scottish MPs vote on income tax level force the rest
:23:57. > :23:59.of the UK? This is something that is being looked at. What is the answer?
:24:00. > :24:05.The Government hasn't come forward with it. What is your answer? We
:24:06. > :24:08.would set up and it is not grand committee or constitutional
:24:09. > :24:10.committee. We will set up a constitutional convention, actually
:24:11. > :24:16.similar to the constitutional convention we set up prior to
:24:17. > :24:21.devolving. How does that work? We have said we will do, initially we
:24:22. > :24:25.will come forward with details on this in the next few months or so,
:24:26. > :24:30.we will have a dialogue in the regions and cities. How long of
:24:31. > :24:34.giving it? If you let me finish my sentence, of England and what we are
:24:35. > :24:38.aiming to do is a bottom-up process. No sir good the great and the good
:24:39. > :24:41.coming on to programmes like this, in term, dictating to people what we
:24:42. > :24:47.will do with the constitution. That is why so many people are being
:24:48. > :24:51.switched off from our politics. You have not asked a single question
:24:52. > :24:54.directly? In terms of the constitutional convention there will
:24:55. > :24:58.be a dialogue, we will come forward with details in the coming weeks. In
:24:59. > :25:02.the autumn of 2015 we will set up the constitutional convention, which
:25:03. > :25:06.will be bottom up, involvingive wok society. You likened it before we
:25:07. > :25:09.came on air there to the Scottish Constitutional Convention. Didn't
:25:10. > :25:14.you? It is him later. How long did that sit for? That sat for some
:25:15. > :25:18.time. Obviously you don't want a process dragging out for some time.
:25:19. > :25:26.It was exactly six years? We are not talking about six years in this
:25:27. > :25:30.instance stance. How long? The Prime Minister said Scottish and English
:25:31. > :25:35.devolution should move in tandem and go together, which could delay the
:25:36. > :25:38.Scottish devolution? You wanted an inclusive settlement, do you agree
:25:39. > :25:43.with that? I don't think there is any proposal on the day to delay the
:25:44. > :25:46.timetable, which has been set out for the proposed devolution in
:25:47. > :25:50.respect of Scotland. In terms of what happens in England, we haven't
:25:51. > :25:54.actually seen any proposals from the Prime Minister at all on that. All
:25:55. > :25:59.we have seen is a proposal to set up a cabinet committee, very
:26:00. > :26:01.Westminster focussed, headeded by a former leader of the Conservative
:26:02. > :26:04.Party, William Hague, I don't think that will cut it with the British
:26:05. > :26:10.people, given that people are hired with the whole way a that the system
:26:11. > :26:14.is run. The yes campaign, and the yes vote showed that Labour is still
:26:15. > :26:20.losing votes of white working-class males. The election, even though you
:26:21. > :26:26.won, is something of a crisis for Scottish Labour. Is that because it
:26:27. > :26:29.is widely seen as being run by nonentities that can't hold the old
:26:30. > :26:33.Labour vote together? I don't that characterisation. We have just had a
:26:34. > :26:40.no vote, by some margin that many didn't expect. You had Team Labour
:26:41. > :26:43.come together, Ed Miliband, Gordon Brown, Alastair Darling, the whole
:26:44. > :26:48.team came together and made and won the argument. If it is not run by a
:26:49. > :26:51.bunch of nonentities, other than the Scottish Labour leader could you
:26:52. > :27:01.name three members of the Labour Shadow Cabinet? Of our Shadow
:27:02. > :27:09.Cabinet. In Scotland? You have got Joanne Lamont. Kesia D ougdale. What
:27:10. > :27:17.does she do? Not entirely sure. She's education. Can you name more?
:27:18. > :27:21.No, I'm not a Scott. You don't know who your Scottish cabinet is in
:27:22. > :27:24.Scotland? I'm not a Scottish MP or a member of the Scottish Parliament.
:27:25. > :27:33.We better leave it there, I will give you the list. Thank you.
:27:34. > :27:39.Joining us now we have former Conservative and peer Michael
:27:40. > :27:43.Heseltine. You recommended a radical decentralisation from Whitehall to
:27:44. > :27:47.local Government. Good evening, can I just get your view on the West
:27:48. > :27:52.Lothian Question, do you believe it should be answered with English
:27:53. > :27:56.votes for English laws? Yes. And that would solve it for you, you are
:27:57. > :27:59.on the Prime Minister's side on that. Would that be enough for
:28:00. > :28:10.devolution in England or what more needs to be done? Well, HIV the
:28:11. > :28:17.privilege of producing reports for the Prime Minister and he through
:28:18. > :28:22.his minister, Greg Clarke, is now implementing what are pace-changing
:28:23. > :28:26.devolution arrangements. If you go to Manchester, Liverpool or Coventry
:28:27. > :28:30.and Warwick last week, they are entering into arrangements with
:28:31. > :28:33.central Government to take much more discretion into their own controls
:28:34. > :28:39.through the Local Enterprise Partnerships. Very significant
:28:40. > :28:46.funds. I mean about three months ago the Chancellor was able to offer ?6
:28:47. > :28:50.billion worth of selected programmes which had been chosen by the local
:28:51. > :28:57.people. This is only the beginning, but the idea that we have got to
:28:58. > :28:59.spend months, or in Labour's terms having an arrangement some time at
:29:00. > :29:03.the end of the next year, we are already doing these things. The
:29:04. > :29:08.essence is to do it on a bigger scale with greater urgency. What you
:29:09. > :29:11.are talking about is more decentralisation to the big cities
:29:12. > :29:17.and regions around the big cities. What has been talked about in your
:29:18. > :29:20.party? I'm sorry, sorry, we must. Let me finish the question and you
:29:21. > :29:26.can answer it? You have made a statement that is not true. We are
:29:27. > :29:30.talking about devolution to 39 component units of England. Every
:29:31. > :29:37.part of the country is included. Will they have tax-raising powers?
:29:38. > :29:41.Including the rural areas. No. It is decentralisation not devolution. If
:29:42. > :29:46.I could ask my question, what I want to know is this? Andrew listen are
:29:47. > :29:51.you interviewing yourself or me. I'm trying to ask my question so you can
:29:52. > :29:55.answer it? No, but you keep asserting things that are not true.
:29:56. > :29:59.In the deal with Manchester they have an arrangement if where if they
:30:00. > :30:03.get extra development taking place, they keep a part of the proceeds
:30:04. > :30:07.that arise from that development. They have been authorised to borrow
:30:08. > :30:13.money on the basis that there is a sharing of the returns on that
:30:14. > :30:16.money. So these are the beginnings of examples where the Government is
:30:17. > :30:23.already moving forward. No-one pretends it is the ultimate
:30:24. > :30:28.solution, but it is all already happening under this Government. Now
:30:29. > :30:32.to my question, in addition to all that, should there be what is good
:30:33. > :30:37.enough for the Scots is it good enough for the English, should they
:30:38. > :30:41.have an English demoss, an English arrangement where they set the
:30:42. > :30:47.framework and the laws in which this decentralisingation takes place. --
:30:48. > :30:58.decentralisation takes place? I don't see an idea to appeal to the
:30:59. > :31:00.majority of the the English parliament, saying all these others
:31:01. > :31:04.will have these powers but you can't. How could you seriously think
:31:05. > :31:07.a Government could ask those members of the parliament that represent
:31:08. > :31:10.English constituencies to vote for that. I don't think they will do it.
:31:11. > :31:16.I don't think the Government will ask them to, but I think if they did
:31:17. > :31:20.ask them to they wouldn't get the stuff through the Commons. What you
:31:21. > :31:23.are saying is if it is good enough for the Scots, and good enough for
:31:24. > :31:33.the Welsh, and the Northern Irish, it should be good enough for the
:31:34. > :31:37.English? I wouldn't use those words, I would say we need a decent system
:31:38. > :31:41.of governing this country and it should lie fairly across the four
:31:42. > :31:46.components of the United Kingdom. In an equal way? Equal is a difficult
:31:47. > :31:49.word because you have got all sorts of different resources and different
:31:50. > :31:54.equalisation programmes and you have to work all that out. Only a central
:31:55. > :32:01.Government can do that. You have got to realise that you are not going to
:32:02. > :32:04.hand over control to Scotland to its economy because they are so
:32:05. > :32:08.interwoven with the United Kingdom economy, as the no vote rightly said
:32:09. > :32:12.and persuaded people. So there has to be a Chancellor, you know, you
:32:13. > :32:16.can only have one person in charge of the Treasury. I got my question
:32:17. > :32:24.out, and I might even have got an answer, thank you very much.
:32:25. > :32:29.So England devolution is clearly on the agenda at last, there is even
:32:30. > :32:32.talk of new powers for Cardiff and Belfast. If it is good enough for
:32:33. > :32:36.Scotland it is good enough for the rest of us. What is this West
:32:37. > :32:42.Lothian Question all the politicians and pundits have been talking about?
:32:43. > :32:48.What is the answer? Is there more than one, two or three?
:32:49. > :32:51.Does Britain need another parliament? At the moment
:32:52. > :32:56.Westminster is the national UK legislature and the local
:32:57. > :33:01.legislature for England. So a Scottish MP can vote say on English
:33:02. > :33:05.education, yet an MP for England cannot vote on Scottish education
:33:06. > :33:12.because it is devolved to Hollyrood. That oddity is known as the West
:33:13. > :33:16.Lothian Question. If we were starting from scratch and
:33:17. > :33:21.money were no object the simplest way to answer the West Lothian
:33:22. > :33:26.Question would simply be to open a new English parliament, perhaps in
:33:27. > :33:29.Birmingham, Manchester or Leeds. We would devolve power to it as in
:33:30. > :33:34.Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. That will give you a
:33:35. > :33:38.parliament for each constituent nature in the union. They could
:33:39. > :33:43.taken a interest in local schools and hospitals and the UK wide could
:33:44. > :33:48.do federal topic, setting a UK budget, defence, foreign policy.
:33:49. > :33:52.That sort of thing. Alternatively, if you want to save
:33:53. > :33:57.yourself the cost of setting up a whole new English parliament and
:33:58. > :34:01.capital, then you could have the existing MPs with English seats to
:34:02. > :34:05.meet on their own without the other MPs to debate and discuss English
:34:06. > :34:11.matters. The so called English votes for English laws. That seems the
:34:12. > :34:15.likeliest proposal to come from the Conservatives, but the powers
:34:16. > :34:19.devolved to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, are wielded by
:34:20. > :34:23.local leaders. If you were to devolve power to England, you would
:34:24. > :34:27.need a similar sort of executive that would answer to England's local
:34:28. > :34:32.legislatures. That executive need not be very big, it is hard to see
:34:33. > :34:35.how devolution in England would work if the country didn't have its own
:34:36. > :34:39.First Minister. For example say there was a budget dispute between
:34:40. > :34:45.the four countries who would stand up for England. Suppose Labour was
:34:46. > :34:48.not collected UK wide for Government, but England had voted
:34:49. > :34:51.for a Conservative Government. Why shouldn't its voters be allowed to
:34:52. > :35:01.have the Government they chose. What kind of devolution is that? There is
:35:02. > :35:05.one big problem in introducing this constitution, England, 84% of the
:35:06. > :35:09.population. It would dominate a UK-wide federal parliament and vote
:35:10. > :35:12.itself favours at the expense of other nations. That is not an
:35:13. > :35:17.unfamiliar problem for constitution righters, it is one the US has had
:35:18. > :35:20.to deal with. We could borrow one of their solutions, we could give each
:35:21. > :35:24.of the four countries in the UK the same number of peers. That would
:35:25. > :35:28.mean the people of Belfast would have more representation from people
:35:29. > :35:33.in Bristol. It is not direct democracy but a way to aDom Kate the
:35:34. > :35:37.four nationalities within our country.
:35:38. > :35:46.Proposals for a form are likely to fall well short on that. The Tories
:35:47. > :35:52.are even cool on having an English First Minister. But massive reforms
:35:53. > :35:59.at break neck need is coming. More power is devolved from Westminster
:36:00. > :36:03.so the problem is growing, but votes for Englishmen on English topics is
:36:04. > :36:06.very rare to happen. Those walking the corridors of
:36:07. > :36:14.power, and not changing the rules of the game is often a virtue.
:36:15. > :36:18.We're not now just talking about more powers for Edinburgh. We're
:36:19. > :36:22.looking at a constitutional convulsion engulfing the whole of
:36:23. > :36:36.the UK. David Cameron has provided draft
:36:37. > :36:46.legislation in January, is that Israel feesable in
:36:47. > :36:49.I'm joined by Dominic Grieve, isn't it that David Cameron is trying to
:36:50. > :36:53.make a new constitution for the whole of the UK on the back of a fag
:36:54. > :36:58.packet? There is no doubt lots of people are saying lots of things and
:36:59. > :37:02.wanting things to happen quickly. I think it is all well intentioned and
:37:03. > :37:07.I think it is well intentioned from the leaders of all maintained
:37:08. > :37:12.parties at Westminster. But the reality is it will take time to do.
:37:13. > :37:16.One thing I'm absolutely sure about, unless we do it as a whole it won't
:37:17. > :37:20.work. The problem we had with the
:37:21. > :37:25.devolution package which I participated in parliament, is it
:37:26. > :37:29.was a top-down Westminster parts with bits of sovereignty. The
:37:30. > :37:32.message I take away from the referendum is people, apart from the
:37:33. > :37:38.question of Scottish independence, there was a bigger issue, how are we
:37:39. > :37:41.governed, a general sense of detatchment from politics. A sense
:37:42. > :37:45.of aversion to the political class who run the country. A sense that
:37:46. > :37:51.there is no difference between them and no authenticity, and a desire
:37:52. > :37:56.for change. The question for me as a politician is can we respond to
:37:57. > :38:00.this. I think we can, but whilst we certainly mustn't take a huge amount
:38:01. > :38:07.of time over it, we mustn't rush it either. Because it must be done as a
:38:08. > :38:10.whole. And the danger is that what seems to have happened is it looks
:38:11. > :38:15.to a lot of people outside that David Cameron has bounced into this.
:38:16. > :38:18.Not only that he was almost a rabbit in the headlights, I will deliver
:38:19. > :38:21.this, first draft legislation he said this morning by January. We
:38:22. > :38:25.hear the conversation that Andrew was having. What are the chances, if
:38:26. > :38:28.you are a betting man, what are the chances of delivering first draft
:38:29. > :38:38.legislation in January? We can sketch out by January. Ideas. But
:38:39. > :38:42.the idea we would have the exercise needed, in my judge, we will push
:38:43. > :38:44.this thing forward and get acceptance across the UK, I don't
:38:45. > :38:49.think that is possible. There are extra powers in Scotland.
:38:50. > :38:52.I really think people say up here sometimes that is not true. You are
:38:53. > :38:57.not going to deliver T I think there is a real retire to deliver that. We
:38:58. > :39:01.have to solve the West Lothian Question, or quite frankly England
:39:02. > :39:05.will go bang at some point, there is real resentment in the current
:39:06. > :39:08.system. Is there a way of fixing it and delivering an English
:39:09. > :39:12.parliament? I think an English parliament would be very difficult,
:39:13. > :39:17.it would be so dominant within the union. I think there are ways to
:39:18. > :39:22.resolve it within the context of a UK parliament but with English laws
:39:23. > :39:29.being ultimately reserved for legislation by English MPs. It can
:39:30. > :39:34.be done and it is complex but with goodwill it can be achieved. The
:39:35. > :39:40.Welsh devolutionlement needs to be looked at. From my time in
:39:41. > :39:49.parliament nobody knows what the paper means. We are often in dispute
:39:50. > :39:52.over the interpretation over a cack-handed piece of legislation.
:39:53. > :39:56.Thank you. We discuss the political ruction of
:39:57. > :39:59.the day with Beth Rigby deputy political editor at the Financial
:40:00. > :40:04.Times, and Steve Richards for the Independent. The big news today is
:40:05. > :40:10.that the union survived. But I would suggest that the second story is the
:40:11. > :40:13.way that Mr Cameron has now linked to the promised extra devolution to
:40:14. > :40:18.Scotland, which is a vow he and other leaders have made. Now with
:40:19. > :40:25.extra devolution for England, for they are linked, we have to go in
:40:26. > :40:31.tandem. David Cameron has played a political blinder in that sense
:40:32. > :40:35.today. He has said we will deliver as a cross-party agreement Scottish
:40:36. > :40:44.devolution. But I will layer over that and on to that a pledge to give
:40:45. > :40:48.English votes to English people. In doing so he has created a
:40:49. > :40:52.constitutional minefield. And the problem is whether he can deliver
:40:53. > :40:56.it. I would suggest he can't deliver it, on the Gordon Brown timetable.
:40:57. > :41:02.He may be able to agree the extra Scottish devolution, although there
:41:03. > :41:06.is argy bargy about that. But he cannot, starting from a standing
:41:07. > :41:10.start agree the English devolution as well? That what has changed
:41:11. > :41:15.today. He has said very clearly the pace of change is coupled with
:41:16. > :41:20.England. All constitutional change is driven by party self-interest. No
:41:21. > :41:23.party will say we will back something that harms us. However
:41:24. > :41:29.pure and noble it might seem in principle. The Tory position has
:41:30. > :41:33.been pretty consistent for a long time about English MPs having power
:41:34. > :41:36.over English laws. What has changed today is the coupling with the
:41:37. > :41:41.Scottish legislation, this is all meant to be sorted by January. It is
:41:42. > :41:44.bonkers, it won't be. The politics and the self-interest is obvious,
:41:45. > :41:49.but it can't be done in that timetable. I would say that what was
:41:50. > :41:54.clever about what David Cameron did this morning, he came out of the
:41:55. > :41:57.blocks at 7.00am, he promised to solve the West Lothian Question and
:41:58. > :42:02.resolve t he saw off Nigel Farage who the Tories were really concerned
:42:03. > :42:09.would try to present himself as a sort of English Salmond. But in
:42:10. > :42:16.doing so he set a train of constitutional consequences that he
:42:17. > :42:23.might not be able to deliver on. And the problem is that now having
:42:24. > :42:28.killed off the imminent people from the Tory Party, a few of them want
:42:29. > :42:31.the dual process to work. What you have said is right. Mr Cameron,
:42:32. > :42:36.having won the referendum and thought at one stage he may have
:42:37. > :42:41.lost it, he has done this from a sense of weakness. There was massive
:42:42. > :42:46.Tory backbench rebellion coming in against what he had outsourced to
:42:47. > :42:50.Gordon Brown and on top of that reinforce the Barnet formula for
:42:51. > :42:53.Scotland. Forget about self-industry, he had no choice but
:42:54. > :43:05.to make the offer and deliver it by the Tory MPs. What is interesting,
:43:06. > :43:11.and Nick they have broadly agreed on the principle of the English votes
:43:12. > :43:16.for English laws. But the timetable, I have heard a whole range, Rifkind
:43:17. > :43:21.and Clarke and others, saying this has to be thought through carefully.
:43:22. > :43:29.He has got them on board with the principle but real practical
:43:30. > :43:34.problems. This is Linton Crosby, sticking their feet to the fire.
:43:35. > :43:41.They are going to get Labour and they are worried about UKIP and
:43:42. > :43:46.depict Labour as the anti-part re party. Lyndon's hands are all over
:43:47. > :43:51.it, an historic day for Britain. He gets the Prime Minister to present
:43:52. > :43:56.it as a one question on the West Lothian Question which has been in
:43:57. > :44:04.the Tory manifesto as something to deliver for in a number of years. I
:44:05. > :44:08.want to ask you. Gordon Brown. The new leader of the Scottish Labour?
:44:09. > :44:11.Who knows. The man who will come to the Commons again, to fight, to make
:44:12. > :44:16.sure that Westminster delivers on its promise to the Scottish people?
:44:17. > :44:31.Yeah, well this whole thing has given him a cause, he hasn't gone
:44:32. > :44:38.through a complete met at that met huge change. When he Dame Shadow
:44:39. > :44:42.Chancellor in 1992, he felt he had to go into a tonal straitjacket of
:44:43. > :44:46.which there was no escape until the referendum campaign and he found an
:44:47. > :44:56.authentic voice. He will be player in future negotiation as well.
:44:57. > :44:59.That's it from London. Back to Edinburgh.
:45:00. > :45:03.Now Alex Salmond has failed to secure independence for Scotland,
:45:04. > :45:12.but he may have succeeded in triggering greater devolution across
:45:13. > :45:16.the UK. Has Alex Salmond with his great charisma deliver the most that
:45:17. > :45:19.could be achieved. Or has a broader political movement in Scotland been
:45:20. > :45:25.galvanised by the campaign. We will discuss that with the panel here
:45:26. > :45:29.shortly. Outside the Scottish Parliament this
:45:30. > :45:32.evening as the light faded a group of yes supporters gathered, perhaps
:45:33. > :45:38.for consolation, perhaps for company. Even handing out some
:45:39. > :45:42.leftover balloons couldn't mask the atmosphere of utter deflation. The
:45:43. > :45:47.Scottish Parliament was specifically designed by Labour, to "kill
:45:48. > :45:52.nationalism stone dead". Yet Alex Salmond was able to take it and bend
:45:53. > :45:56.it towards his political objective, firstly taking over the Government
:45:57. > :46:01.of Scotland, and then launching a bid for independence that took
:46:02. > :46:06.nearly half the country with him. As a consumate political operator he
:46:07. > :46:14.was able to exploit the unlikely scenario of being the leader of an
:46:15. > :46:19.organisation. And put himself as a Scottish every man and exploit
:46:20. > :46:23.Labour's difficulty, the Iraq War and the Blair-Brown tension, and in
:46:24. > :46:27.2011 amid a perfect political storm say hey I'm the leader of the
:46:28. > :46:33.natural party of the Government, return me to Government ah he got an
:46:34. > :46:39.overall majority, as well as killing nationalism stone dead, this place
:46:40. > :46:44.was to deprive every single party of an overall majority and he broke the
:46:45. > :46:49.system. Salmond's success didn't end there he managed to turn what was a
:46:50. > :46:54.decidedly minority taste for independence into a main treatment
:46:55. > :47:02.mass campaign that drew in disa-affected voters other parties
:47:03. > :47:08.had left behind or never reached. He was clearly no Obama, his message of
:47:09. > :47:18.hope and change got everyone's attention, the bright lights of the
:47:19. > :47:22.the media someone shone on him. -- shone on him. He managed to win over
:47:23. > :47:27.Scottish voters to the cause of nationalism. But going into the
:47:28. > :47:31.post-Salmond and post-referendum era can they hang on to them? There is a
:47:32. > :47:35.difference between voting in a referendum where you can see clearly
:47:36. > :47:41.the link between your vote and it comes into an outcome and it is a
:47:42. > :47:45.simple yes or no question. Asking them to vote at a general election
:47:46. > :47:53.might be given, it is about the link between your voice and what happens
:47:54. > :47:55.in the policy terms is mediated between political parties and
:47:56. > :47:59.discussions after the election. There is a school of thought that
:48:00. > :48:03.suggests the stars will never again be as perfectly aligned for
:48:04. > :48:06.nationalism. Not least having an old Eatonian Conservative Prime Minister
:48:07. > :48:10.pushing through a programme of austerity.
:48:11. > :48:15.In future, of course, they will trade upon what might have been. The
:48:16. > :48:19.yes campaign sold independence as this beguiling product, where all
:48:20. > :48:24.your dreams could come true. An independent Scotland can be whatever
:48:25. > :48:27.you wanted it to be. Of course it is difficult for the other side to
:48:28. > :48:30.counter the argument, which I'm sure they will make in the future and
:48:31. > :48:35.Nicola Sturgeon will make in the future. Just think what you could
:48:36. > :48:40.have had if you voted yes? Scottish nationalism clearly isn't going
:48:41. > :48:46.away. But how it moves forward after this defeat depends on many factors.
:48:47. > :48:51.Who leads after Alex Salmond and other parties deal with the
:48:52. > :48:54.grievances of question voters. If devolution didn't kill nationalism
:48:55. > :49:02.stone dead, there is no reason to think that even more devolution will
:49:03. > :49:07.do the trick either. That was David Grossman, here with
:49:08. > :49:13.me is Alan Little, and the chronicler of Scotland tomorrow
:49:14. > :49:20.Devine and one of his ancestors signed the Act of Union.
:49:21. > :49:24.A lot to chew over, big events. Tom you called the UK a failed and
:49:25. > :49:30.corrupt state. The truth of the matter is 55% of those who voted
:49:31. > :49:34.from an 85% turnover didn't agree with you? I didn't say it was a
:49:35. > :49:39.corrupted state but a failed state. It will be until there are
:49:40. > :49:46.substantial changes in it over the next several years. The changes I
:49:47. > :49:50.would like to see are these. One One is to ensure the promises are
:49:51. > :49:55.fulfilled as soon as possible. The promises to Scotland. It is more
:49:56. > :50:00.fundamentally significant to than that. To rebalance the union state.
:50:01. > :50:06.It has to be rebalanced in my view now that a we are going in a federal
:50:07. > :50:12.or that direction. If not they will be back here very soon. You said you
:50:13. > :50:16.were a you reluctant sign up for independence, you must be
:50:17. > :50:22.disappointed? I expected a no vote between 2-3%. I think Mr Salmond and
:50:23. > :50:27.I pay tribute to him is probably, well including the great Secretary
:50:28. > :50:32.of State in Scotland, during the Second World War, as the politician
:50:33. > :50:38.in Scotland who has made the greatest impact on politics. I come
:50:39. > :50:42.back to your question, which was... My question was were you not
:50:43. > :50:46.disappointed? No, because I expected it to happen. You were one of these
:50:47. > :50:52.people who was not a nationalist, in the sense of being a member of the
:50:53. > :50:57.SNP, but you saw the galvanising of the whole political discourse, must
:50:58. > :51:00.have been disappointed? I'm gutted, I would say I'm heartbroken I would
:51:01. > :51:07.say there are lots of people out there watching what has happened
:51:08. > :51:11.here. The Scots have been awarded voting no by being asked to go to
:51:12. > :51:15.the back of the constitutional queue within one day of voting. So
:51:16. > :51:18.Westminster parties can play games with one another to achieve
:51:19. > :51:22.political power. You are shaking your head? I think it is completely
:51:23. > :51:31.the reverse of what happened. I think what happened by voting no is
:51:32. > :51:36.Scotland has Regal vanised itself in an -- galvanised itself. Far from no
:51:37. > :51:50.being a relative vote. The Scots have seen it as a highly positive
:51:51. > :51:53.votealvanised itself. Far from no being a relative vote. The Scots
:51:54. > :51:55.have seen it as a highly positive vote. I think we are at the position
:51:56. > :51:58.of something great. The historian's view of whether or not the sense of
:51:59. > :52:02.nationalism was embodied in Alex Salmond and whether you think there
:52:03. > :52:08.will be a disapation there or people will feel, we talked earlier about
:52:09. > :52:12.this, there is disappointed. That whole idea that this idea that
:52:13. > :52:16.everybody has been galvanised by politics is a passing thing. A lot
:52:17. > :52:21.of people will be disappointed but a lot has been achieved. The peaceful
:52:22. > :52:26.ballot box nature of this whole discussion. How many people have
:52:27. > :52:37.been arrested? Anyone kill? Compare this I have just come from India, to
:52:38. > :52:44.the Kashmir issue. Land mass trying to breakthrough and 100 people
:52:45. > :52:47.killed every month. There has been some trouble I must say of two
:52:48. > :52:52.people. It is people falling out of the pub and that is the violence.
:52:53. > :52:55.You have to take a step back and remember in world terms to have a
:52:56. > :53:03.passionate discussion about the future of an entire people. How many
:53:04. > :53:08.people arrested and no-one killed. Isn't it extraordinary that
:53:09. > :53:15.Glasgow's second city of empire voted no. It is interesting how much
:53:16. > :53:18.of the country didn't. To have Edinburgh, Lothians, Orkneys, there
:53:19. > :53:21.is no surprise, much of the rest of the country which could have voted
:53:22. > :53:28.yes didn't. To me that was a huge surprise. We started in March or
:53:29. > :53:36.April at 31% we were told it wouldn't increase. The reason is did
:53:37. > :53:44.was because of a whole plethora groups. Those guys are not going
:53:45. > :53:48.home. They are not going home, what will they do, because if you say
:53:49. > :53:53.that Labour is stalled in Scotland at the moment. And voting SNP won't
:53:54. > :53:59.deliver you independence if suddenly there will be a new referendum. Who
:54:00. > :54:14.what does that mass of people do, do they form another movement, do they
:54:15. > :54:25.galvanise, or do they coallase for a long time. A lot of people have done
:54:26. > :54:32.it, friendship, and it needs some talking so we don't go to the
:54:33. > :54:35.talk-down ways, but just to go to a structure.
:54:36. > :54:39.We talked about Alex Salmond being the high water mark of the SNP, is
:54:40. > :54:44.it the high mark of nationalism? There was a grave mistake here, this
:54:45. > :54:51.is not nationalism. This is a movement for independence. Do you
:54:52. > :54:54.think there is a possible movement for independence? I have been
:54:55. > :54:58.getting tweets and texts today from people I met in the yes Scotland
:54:59. > :55:01.campaign. One young man who is a Green Party member says the
:55:02. > :55:10.membership of my heart has doubled in the last 24 hours. Others saying
:55:11. > :55:14.they have decided to join the SNP. Those are conventional political
:55:15. > :55:19.parties in a sense. The yes campaign was an unconventional thing, it felt
:55:20. > :55:32.more like a hobby than a chore. It felt like a carnival coming up, I
:55:33. > :55:36.met here at the Yestervil. That can't be sustained on a long time.
:55:37. > :55:44.You can can see what they are talking about in the last 12 hours,
:55:45. > :55:47.the possibility of a European movement that surround an idea that
:55:48. > :55:55.being ultimately independent for Scotland. They make it a party aimed
:55:56. > :55:59.at elections. It is a movement for independence and not nationalism?
:56:00. > :56:02.Because it is wider and deeper than the Scottish National Party. The
:56:03. > :56:05.Scottish National Party I would suggest is a minority in this
:56:06. > :56:17.dynamic, that is one of the reasons why it will happen. The genie is out
:56:18. > :56:20.of the bottle. I need a very deep warning to Westminster politicians
:56:21. > :56:27.if they think it is all over, it is not all over. In the same way you
:56:28. > :56:34.talk about the genie, and Alan talks about the Scottish Demos, will there
:56:35. > :56:37.be a corresponding English Demos. Something would have to happen the
:56:38. > :56:43.way that Scotland has been galvanised. We have been hearing in
:56:44. > :56:48.the course of the evening about the problems and about that happening. I
:56:49. > :56:56.slightly want to skis diss agree with the SNP -- want to disagree
:56:57. > :57:03.with the opinions about the SNP. Labour has a real problem facing it,
:57:04. > :57:08.I believe the SNP, oddly, post-Salmond could rebuild itself as
:57:09. > :57:10.a powerful political force in Scotland, a non-independent
:57:11. > :57:21.supporting party, but with policies with which a huge amount of Scots
:57:22. > :57:25.actually agree. His whole raison d'etre is political independence.
:57:26. > :57:28.One of the reasons why it did the impossible, and I don't global to
:57:29. > :57:34.the Scottish National Party. Is because it was seen to be performing
:57:35. > :57:37.highly competently and in administrative terms and delivering
:57:38. > :57:40.social and democratic policies to the Scottish people. If that was
:57:41. > :57:44.going to happen in England, surely there would have to be a rebranding
:57:45. > :57:50.of what is regarded as nationalism in England. So often it has been
:57:51. > :57:53.tainted by association. Actually what is wrong with the idea of
:57:54. > :57:57.building that again. Especially if we are talking about an English
:57:58. > :58:00.parliament. I don't like nationalism anywhere in the world, wherever I go
:58:01. > :58:05.there is a foreign correspondent, Alan has covered all the conflicts.
:58:06. > :58:12.But nationalism seen from the outside is an unattractive thing.
:58:13. > :58:17.Every nationalism thinks it is unique. That is complete nonsense
:58:18. > :58:20.what you have just said. This is civic nationalism and not ethnic.
:58:21. > :58:26.You have to remember that. Because we want to take this and look at
:58:27. > :58:30.this, is it possible that... . It is a terrible destablising force, I
:58:31. > :58:34.agree with you in human nature. Is it right the civic nationalism
:58:35. > :58:38.fuelled in a top-down way by Westminster could be part of the
:58:39. > :58:42.discourse, it could be a different kind of force, a civic force in
:58:43. > :58:47.England which is isn't at the moment? Re I didn't see English
:58:48. > :58:57.nationalism. I don't see where it exists. I see however. I see
:58:58. > :59:04.northern renalalism as a strong force, that is the direction it is
:59:05. > :59:11.going to go. Away from London, more devolved power to the north and
:59:12. > :59:14.North West, a Great Northern swathe. But not English nationalists and
:59:15. > :59:21.backbenchers. I felt that astonishing that you don't recognise
:59:22. > :59:24.that the modern form of English nationalism, without an English
:59:25. > :59:31.party is U Kim. There praisingly before you. Agree UKIP is a growing
:59:32. > :59:36.force and exactly sort of the things they will reach. The point of this
:59:37. > :59:41.was really to try to establish a modern rational kind of way of
:59:42. > :59:45.running a country. Lots of people are embarrassed that a notion with
:59:46. > :59:51.all the scandals that Westminster has, a place that still styles
:59:52. > :59:58.itself as the mother of parliament, and using an archaic voting that we
:59:59. > :00:02.couldn't get a vote to change last place. We will go to the back of the
:00:03. > :00:09.cue and not have any of the aspirations we have raised recently
:00:10. > :00:13.and insteppedly. How do you see this, you have followed it from the
:00:14. > :00:19.beginning, you have seen it mature into whatever happened yesterday.
:00:20. > :00:23.How does it go on? You can't move around a yes rally for people not to
:00:24. > :00:28.tell you they are not nationalists, they are not nationalists and don't
:00:29. > :00:31.vote for the SNP. Scotland is full of those people, they deny they are
:00:32. > :00:34.nationalist, they say it is not about that. The interesting thing is
:00:35. > :00:38.the Westminster party leaders came north again and again to fight
:00:39. > :00:44.narrow nationalism. And the enemy they were identifying, it didn't
:00:45. > :00:47.mean anything to most of the people. They don't believe they are narrow
:00:48. > :00:53.nationalists or nationalists of any sort. Thank you very much indeed.
:00:54. > :01:05.Here on this amazing from Andrew in London and me in Edinburgh, that is
:01:06. > :01:11.all we have time for, good night. Hello, there are some torrential
:01:12. > :01:14.thunderstorms rumbling around parts of England in the night and some
:01:15. > :01:15.into eastern England to start the