:00:00. > :00:00.Forced sterilisation, fines and abortion - the world's
:00:00. > :00:10.longest and most brutal birth control experiment comes to an end.
:00:11. > :00:18.What has been the consequence of China's one child policy?
:00:19. > :00:22.And what do our aging populations mean for the world economy?
:00:23. > :00:24.Finding Azam - the young Syrian boy who
:00:25. > :00:39.Belgrade vanished. He had a broken jaw and he disappeared. -- we found
:00:40. > :00:41.this boy in Belgrade and he vanished. Can you? It is in Arabic.
:00:42. > :00:44.Can you help me look for him? British universities always used to
:00:45. > :00:46.be about free speech, So why have our campuses become
:00:47. > :00:50.so quick to censor? We ask the Leeds University Union
:00:51. > :00:57.affairs officer Good evening. China's one child
:00:58. > :01:04.policy is estimated to have Put like that,
:01:05. > :01:08.you start to get a sense of the effect it has had on the country
:01:09. > :01:14.over the last three decades. Two generations with no cousins,
:01:15. > :01:20.no aunts no uncles, China,
:01:21. > :01:27.which once strove to control the - is now trying to do precisely
:01:28. > :01:45.the opposite, and make it grow. Meets three products of China's one
:01:46. > :01:53.child policy. When I was a child, sometimes I felt a bit lonely. I am
:01:54. > :01:58.happy with my family because they only have one child. They took care
:01:59. > :02:05.of me well. I would prefer to have an older brother or a younger
:02:06. > :02:11.sister. Sometimes in my childhood, I felt lonely. Peking has decreed a
:02:12. > :02:16.simple but drastic remedy. Every couple should have only one child.
:02:17. > :02:20.That policy had serious consequences. Not least because
:02:21. > :02:25.people often felt incentivised to make sure that they are one child
:02:26. > :02:28.was a boy. With one child, you get considerable privileges. When people
:02:29. > :02:32.can only have one child, and this is true around the world, not just
:02:33. > :02:39.China, and they have the technology to choose between having a boy or a
:02:40. > :02:46.girl, through scanning and other technology, and aborting foetuses is
:02:47. > :02:50.legal, as it is in China, and the incentives to another point or
:02:51. > :02:54.greater, status and income, the prospects are greater for boys. When
:02:55. > :02:58.the policy was first introduced, China was very poor. The country's
:02:59. > :03:03.leadership feared that they would be ruined by overpopulation. 35 years
:03:04. > :03:07.later, a lot has changed. After an economic boom, there is a new fear
:03:08. > :03:13.that there are not enough young people and China will become old
:03:14. > :03:17.before it becomes rich. This is what democracy is called China's
:03:18. > :03:22.population pyramid in 1980. As the one child rule came into force. It
:03:23. > :03:26.shows the percentage of the population at various ages. 35 years
:03:27. > :03:30.ago, China had lots of young people, too many for the authorities. Fast
:03:31. > :03:35.forward to now and there are fewer children and the pyramid bulges in
:03:36. > :03:40.the middle. The fear is that as they retire, there will not be enough
:03:41. > :03:42.workers to support them. At first, the policy was strictly enforced but
:03:43. > :03:45.it has been relaxed as the policy was strictly enforced but
:03:46. > :03:48.changed. Before today, the policy was strictly enforced but
:03:49. > :03:52.many exemptions it only covered around one in three people. At the
:03:53. > :03:57.beginning it was very significant. Most people lived in the
:03:58. > :03:59.and demographic growth was higher. Economic incentives to
:04:00. > :04:01.and demographic growth was higher. fertility were not there.
:04:02. > :04:06.and demographic growth was higher. effect has been decreasing over time
:04:07. > :04:11.and there has been more exemptions. That has been one factor. As women
:04:12. > :04:13.have got educated, as the cost of living in urban areas has gone up, a
:04:14. > :04:17.small apartment costing a living in urban areas has gone up, a
:04:18. > :04:20.money, Skilling costs going up, the incentives have gone down. China's
:04:21. > :04:27.neighbours have lower fertility rates. China is publicly grappling
:04:28. > :04:32.with the economic fallout of demographic change. Less publicly,
:04:33. > :04:37.so is the wider world. This graph shows the percentage of the global
:04:38. > :04:42.population of working age. Starting in the 1970s, it rose sharply as the
:04:43. > :04:46.baby boomers entered the workforce and declining fertility rates meant
:04:47. > :04:50.fewer children. For decades, there were more workers and fewer
:04:51. > :04:53.dependents. But now people live longer and the working age share it
:04:54. > :04:58.looks to have peaked. It has started to fall globally. And the World Bank
:04:59. > :05:06.think that fall will last for decades. Demographic changes mean
:05:07. > :05:10.more workers and the end of the Cold War turbo-charged this trend. For
:05:11. > :05:14.four decades, the supply of workers has been plentiful. Economists have
:05:15. > :05:18.spoken about a global glut of labour. One consequence of that has
:05:19. > :05:22.been a multi decade slowdown in the rate of wage growth. But if the
:05:23. > :05:27.demographics have turned, and oversupply is coming to an end, then
:05:28. > :05:31.existing workers should have more bargaining power. We might expect
:05:32. > :05:35.wage growth to pick up. But how do we pay for longer retirement with
:05:36. > :05:42.fewer workers? Demographics are hard to shift. How do you stop second
:05:43. > :05:46.babies being born? China's Communist party changed the world once and now
:05:47. > :05:53.it has done it again. But even it cannot order a baby boomer. What
:05:54. > :05:57.chance it gets its way? I would like to have more than one child. Two or
:05:58. > :06:06.three is most suitable. I would prefer to have to. A girl and a boy.
:06:07. > :06:14.I have not put too much thought into the question. I would prefer two, a
:06:15. > :06:20.boy and a girl. That is my expectation. Duncan Weldon with that
:06:21. > :06:22.report. With us now George Magnus,
:06:23. > :06:24.who has written a book on this subject, and joins us
:06:25. > :06:27.from Canada and anthropologist Anni Kajanus, who's lived in China
:06:28. > :06:38.and studied the cultural impact Thank you for coming in. Starting
:06:39. > :06:42.with you, Anni, will this radically change what's China looks like in
:06:43. > :06:46.the future? I don't think so. I think where this policy change is
:06:47. > :06:53.going to have the biggest impact is in urban areas. Where it has been
:06:54. > :07:06.more strictly monitored, the policy. I not think that it will result in a
:07:07. > :07:09.significant demographic change although it may result in a
:07:10. > :07:11.short-term baby boomer. What has been the main cultural impact of the
:07:12. > :07:13.last few decades? Out of China, we have heard the horror stories of
:07:14. > :07:19.forced sterilisation, abortion, the gender imbalance. Is that true on
:07:20. > :07:31.the ground? Is that what has been happening? To some extent, yes.
:07:32. > :07:37.Especially in the underdeveloped areas, the policy has met resistance
:07:38. > :07:41.because parents rely on their sons primarily to take care of them in
:07:42. > :07:47.old age. And so there is a strong preference for sons, and there has
:07:48. > :07:52.been. In some rural areas, the policy has been strictly unfermented
:07:53. > :07:58.but in most of the areas, people are able to have three children, at
:07:59. > :08:02.least one son. In urban areas, where the single child is the norm, it has
:08:03. > :08:09.had a huge impact on the Chinese family. And on women's position, and
:08:10. > :08:16.the position of doctors in Chinese families. There has been a drastic
:08:17. > :08:23.increase on families investing in their daughters' futures. Sons and
:08:24. > :08:34.daughters, they grow up with family support. And pressure! This is like
:08:35. > :08:38.at gigantic experiment, the like of which the world has never seen. This
:08:39. > :08:46.is uncharted territory in terms of what happens next. It is. It has
:08:47. > :08:50.certainly been an experiment. The only one that we are aware of where
:08:51. > :08:55.the state has actually interfered in the reproductive habits of its
:08:56. > :09:00.citizens. Although to be fair, for the last three or four years, things
:09:01. > :09:05.have been relaxed gradually. But even the relaxation of the one child
:09:06. > :09:12.policy, until today, or until the formal abandonment, it has not been
:09:13. > :09:17.effective. Two years ago, China was relaxing the policy so that if you
:09:18. > :09:23.were, as a parent, the product of a 1 child family, you were allowed to
:09:24. > :09:28.have two children and they expected 11 million households would be
:09:29. > :09:34.eligible to take advantage of this relaxation. Of these 11 million
:09:35. > :09:41.households, they thought that 2 million might apply to have a second
:09:42. > :09:45.child but barely half actually did. And as far as we can tell, not even
:09:46. > :09:50.that many actually have done. So the issue about controlling the
:09:51. > :09:53.population through this policy was not a particularly good policy and
:09:54. > :09:59.it did not really work. Abandoning it will not have much of fact, I
:10:00. > :10:04.agree with your other guest. So what happens? What happens in terms of
:10:05. > :10:07.the problem they have got with the ageing population. Not unlike many
:10:08. > :10:13.of its neighbours and countries in Europe, but if this does not work,
:10:14. > :10:21.what happens? Well, China has exactly the same problem in managing
:10:22. > :10:28.this issue as we did in the United Kingdom and in the West. They have
:10:29. > :10:32.to develop coping mechanisms, we all do, to deal with the labour supply
:10:33. > :10:39.problem. This is unique in human history. We have this combination of
:10:40. > :10:43.weak fertility, low fertility, and very long increases in life
:10:44. > :10:49.expectancies. That is squeezing the working age population. So how do
:10:50. > :10:55.you deal with that? Immigration is one way to deal with it but the
:10:56. > :11:00.Chinese do not have much immigration. You can have laws that
:11:01. > :11:04.make it more possible for women and older workers to work for longer,
:11:05. > :11:08.and raise the retirement age. Or maybe you start paying people to
:11:09. > :11:14.have bigger families? I wonder, Anni, turning to those two points,
:11:15. > :11:19.immigration, we have not seen China turn to immigration in a big way.
:11:20. > :11:21.Could that starts to happen now? And secondly, the propaganda involved in
:11:22. > :11:27.telling people that they were better off, doing more for China, for the
:11:28. > :11:33.motherland, by having one child. How do you reverse that mindset? I don't
:11:34. > :11:41.think it will be reversible. This process in China happened in a very
:11:42. > :11:43.radical way but this is basically a demographic transition that has
:11:44. > :11:48.happened in other countries also. Once the standard of living rises
:11:49. > :11:52.and women's educational level rises, people tend to have fewer
:11:53. > :11:58.children. This will not change. In urban families, the current young
:11:59. > :12:02.parents are already the generation who were an only child. So they have
:12:03. > :12:09.had this support from their families, and also the pressure. In
:12:10. > :12:14.my experience, in my research, I find that parents want to go easy on
:12:15. > :12:21.the child, but to put so much pressure on the child. To just have
:12:22. > :12:25.one child, or a maximum of two. They want to be able to really support
:12:26. > :12:28.the child. George Magnus, do you think that it will turn to
:12:29. > :12:32.immigration now? Is it something that will be on the cards for China
:12:33. > :12:35.or do you think they will have two incentivise people, and more
:12:36. > :12:43.importantly, is this a political gesture to the outside world, as
:12:44. > :12:49.opposed to a domestic strategy? I don't think it is a political
:12:50. > :12:54.gesture. I think this is recognition of, the culmination of a series of
:12:55. > :12:58.easing measures on policy. And the formal abandonment now means that
:12:59. > :13:04.China actually has two address head-on the issue of a shrinking
:13:05. > :13:07.working age population, which will happen in the foreseeable future.
:13:08. > :13:11.Incentives to make people have children, we know that empirically,
:13:12. > :13:15.in Russia, Spain, France, and many other countries, cash incentives
:13:16. > :13:18.have been given to women to have more children and it has not worked.
:13:19. > :13:25.Economic development is the best contraceptive of all. What happens,
:13:26. > :13:30.partly in China because of the cost of education and health care, it is
:13:31. > :13:38.a big constraint. But as people get better off, and parents go out to
:13:39. > :13:42.work, it is difficult to switch people's reproductive habits. I do
:13:43. > :13:47.not think this policy working. Immigration is not something the
:13:48. > :13:50.Chinese will embrace, I think. But in other countries like the United
:13:51. > :13:53.Kingdom, it is having a significant effect. Thank you both.
:13:54. > :13:56.Some tragedies are so enormous you can't grip them.
:13:57. > :13:59.The war in Syria and the exodus of refugees caused
:14:00. > :14:06.The story of Azam is about the fate of one small boy from Damascus.
:14:07. > :14:09.John Sweeney met him in Serbia in pain with a broken jaw.
:14:10. > :14:11.Then he and the man with him vanished
:14:12. > :14:18.Social media clamoured for Azam to be found and,
:14:19. > :14:21.for Newsnight, John travelled 1,500 miles on the refugee trail in what
:14:22. > :14:45.I am searching for one small boy from Damascus inside a pipeline of
:14:46. > :14:48.humanity. A quarter of a million people have passed through this
:14:49. > :14:53.reception centre in Serbia this month, most of them running from the
:14:54. > :15:01.war in Syria. I've got a strange thing. Who speaks English? You speak
:15:02. > :15:06.some? I was here a month ago and we found this boy in Belgrade and then
:15:07. > :15:20.he vanished. He had a broken jaw and he disappeared. It's in Arabic. Can
:15:21. > :15:32.you help me look for him? The boy I am looking for is Azam
:15:33. > :15:40.Aldahan and I met him last month. Finding Azam seems virtually
:15:41. > :15:47.impossible. Maybe it is worth a try, giving pieces of paper out. Azam had
:15:48. > :15:57.been run over in Macedonia, or so this man said.
:15:58. > :16:10.Azam mother was in Turkey, so where was his dad? They are travelling in
:16:11. > :16:20.a group of 13 men. It looks like he has broken his jaw... The next day
:16:21. > :16:27.in Belgrade, I met Azam again. He was alone, clearly in pain, and his
:16:28. > :16:31.wound looked infected. Doctor Radmila Kosic was running a
:16:32. > :16:38.makeshift clinic for the refugees. It's all right, son, it's OK. We
:16:39. > :16:44.will just clean the wound and send him in an ambulance to the hospital.
:16:45. > :16:51.Where is his father? He was here a minute ago. Our interpreter had a
:16:52. > :16:56.quiet word with Azam. The little boy has told us he is not with his
:16:57. > :17:01.father. His father is still in Turkey so he is going to hospital on
:17:02. > :17:05.his own. It seems he is travelling with uncles or something, but for
:17:06. > :17:13.the moment his uncle has gone. He is on his own. Finally, the man who
:17:14. > :17:19.told us he was his father returned. Our translator was worried, and
:17:20. > :17:27.questioned the man. Whoever the man is, he didn't want to hang around in
:17:28. > :17:33.Serbia. But Azam and the man did get in the ambulance and went to
:17:34. > :17:38.hospital. Foot weeks, no news of Azam, but finally the medical
:17:39. > :17:43.authorities told us, before Azam could get the treatment he urgently
:17:44. > :17:48.needed, Azam and the man had vanished. That should never have
:17:49. > :17:55.happened, says doctor Kosic. The child could have serious injuries
:17:56. > :17:59.after that traffic accident, I was told, so he should be in the
:18:00. > :18:04.hospital, not on the road. He might have serious infections and some
:18:05. > :18:12.concussion, brain concussion or something. He should not be on the
:18:13. > :18:21.road. He should be in hospital. So not that much joy in Belgrade. Time
:18:22. > :18:27.to rejoin the refugee track. Since Azam passed through Serbia in
:18:28. > :18:34.September, it has moved 100 miles west. The people running from one
:18:35. > :18:42.well have ended up in another, a town where Serbia stops and Croatia
:18:43. > :18:47.begins. Croatia is over there. About 1000 people are waiting. Here is the
:18:48. > :18:58.bad news. They are expecting 10,000 more tonight.
:18:59. > :19:10.And yet, even here, the wretched of the Earth have time to help with the
:19:11. > :19:19.search for Azam. The police here aren't exactly welcoming, but these
:19:20. > :19:22.people are running from killing. We Europeans may boast about our
:19:23. > :19:29.political stability but, in this very part of the world 24 years ago,
:19:30. > :19:36.I witnessed Serbs and Croats running and killing each other. Night falls
:19:37. > :19:45.and everything becomes grim, remote than before. The urge to sleep, but
:19:46. > :19:57.they need to get on. -- more grim than before. The dawn mist cloaks
:19:58. > :20:05.the hillside. Turning the apple orchards and cornfields by the
:20:06. > :20:11.border crossing into a ghost world. In the fog from war, children go
:20:12. > :20:17.missing. Some kids just wander off, only to reappear a short while
:20:18. > :20:24.later. But stories swirl air and online, pointing to something more
:20:25. > :20:28.sinister. Holding a child, I noticed, get you across the border
:20:29. > :20:42.faster. Some kids who got lost have not been found. The cold makes your
:20:43. > :20:43.bones creak. This family from Damascus light a fire to make
:20:44. > :21:13.coffee. We are looking for a boy. 10,000 people are waiting. The
:21:14. > :21:21.Croats allow batches of 50 to cross at any one time. The result, the cue
:21:22. > :21:24.from hell. If you are disabled, you get fast tracked, just like at
:21:25. > :21:34.Heathrow. Well, not quite. It's wet. I was rubbish at this at
:21:35. > :22:00.school, and I still am. It's up. We had a tip-off that Azam had ended
:22:01. > :22:05.up in Munich. Here, refugees find not poisoned gas and severed heads
:22:06. > :22:11.at a world of grey, the drizzle of the human soul. This is a German
:22:12. > :22:16.refugee camp and, for some at least, the end of the long road. It is for
:22:17. > :22:21.us, too. The German Red Cross have told us, you are not family so,
:22:22. > :22:26.according to our rules, we can't help you. We've tried but, so far,
:22:27. > :22:51.we've failed to find Azam. Our brilliant friends at BBC Arabic
:22:52. > :22:56.had been looking on Facebook, and they've found Azam's uncle. We
:22:57. > :23:02.checked out his friends, and there he is, in Germany tonight. In the
:23:03. > :23:09.photograph, red flowers, purple flowers. In the background, sports
:23:10. > :23:14.shop. In the windows of the shop, the windows of the building
:23:15. > :23:24.opposite, reflected. Circle windows, square windows. Azam's uncle sat in
:23:25. > :23:29.this chair. Finding the man in the chair wasn't that simple. The uncle
:23:30. > :23:33.got back to us via Facebook. We travelled the length of journey to
:23:34. > :23:39.meet him, only to discover he'd switched his phone off. So we drove
:23:40. > :23:41.around in circles and I feared I would never meet Azam again, until
:23:42. > :23:58.this... If you are the uncle, why didn't you
:23:59. > :24:18.say you were the uncle when you first met us?
:24:19. > :24:27.What was the name of the doctor in Belgrade who said that it was fine
:24:28. > :24:46.for Azam, with a broken jaw, to go on the road to Germany?
:24:47. > :25:06.Where is Azam's mother and father now?
:25:07. > :25:16.The good news? We've just learned that Azam's mum and dad have made it
:25:17. > :25:23.to Germany, and we hope to speak to them soon. There's no sign of the
:25:24. > :25:30.war in Syria ending but, in all this darkness, the story of Azam, once so
:25:31. > :25:40.full of pain... Good to see you, Azam. Now, a point of light. Amazing
:25:41. > :25:43.to find a story with a happy ending. Azam's tale has been -
:25:44. > :25:45.one way or another - the story The progress and the struggle
:25:46. > :25:49.of thousands of migrants across the borders have been images
:25:50. > :25:52.that will leave their imprint And perhaps that explains why -
:25:53. > :25:55.politically - there may be a new urgency to
:25:56. > :25:58.resolve the bigger question of Britain's place in the European
:25:59. > :26:13.Union sooner rather than later. What are you hearing? Well, I think
:26:14. > :26:18.actually the images of last summer's migrant crisis is playing
:26:19. > :26:23.on both camps in the EU referendum campaign. For the out campaign, over
:26:24. > :26:28.the summer, they felt it was definitely starting to tip public
:26:29. > :26:30.opinion on their way. I have spoken to people in the in campaign for
:26:31. > :26:33.that reason who don't want the to people in the in campaign for
:26:34. > :26:37.referendum to be staged anywhere near next summer, which they think
:26:38. > :26:43.will have another migrant problem. There is a pitch from people around
:26:44. > :26:48.the Chancellor, for instance, let's get this done really quickly and not
:26:49. > :26:51.have it dominate the parliament. Many Eurosceptics think the
:26:52. > :26:55.government has ruled out going quickly with a snap referendum. We
:26:56. > :27:00.have been shown evidence that there is no ruling out of that. It is
:27:01. > :27:02.possible they could go as soon as April. I don't think that is
:27:03. > :27:06.likely, for several reasons. The April. I don't think that is
:27:07. > :27:08.last of which is probably the migrant crisis point, which we will
:27:09. > :27:13.come onto. migrant crisis point, which we will
:27:14. > :27:16.probably have another row in the migrant crisis point, which we will
:27:17. > :27:20.probably more unpopularity by saying migrant crisis point, which we will
:27:21. > :27:23.that extreme -year-olds should be allowed to vote, and the House of
:27:24. > :27:28.Commons allowed to vote, and the House of
:27:29. > :27:32.16-year-old. They don't know what David Cameron wants in the
:27:33. > :27:35.renegotiation package. You then come back to this issue about,
:27:36. > :27:37.renegotiation package. You then come want it that window of the next
:27:38. > :27:43.migrant crisis? I think, want it that window of the next
:27:44. > :27:52.least a year away for the referendum.
:27:53. > :27:54.have started banning those they believe
:27:55. > :27:59.Last week, Cardiff University students signed a petition to try to
:28:00. > :28:04.stop Germaine Greer from speaking at an event because of her
:28:05. > :28:07.She pulled out - telling Newsnight she felt too old
:28:08. > :28:09.Other commentators and writers have been banned
:28:10. > :28:12.by other student bodies which have decreed their views problematic.
:28:13. > :28:16.So are today's students more censorious -
:28:17. > :28:26.or more sophisticated about where the level of tolerance should begin?
:28:27. > :28:30.A rare victory for free speech in student politics, according to some.
:28:31. > :28:33.Next month, Wikileaks's controversial founder
:28:34. > :28:36.Julian Assange is to appear at the Cambridge Debating Society.
:28:37. > :28:39.The decision, which followed a referendum,
:28:40. > :28:46.triggered the resignation of the society's women's officer.
:28:47. > :28:48.The comedian known as Dapper Laughs was not so lucky.
:28:49. > :28:51.His planned show at Cardiff Student Union last year was
:28:52. > :28:54.cancelled following a petition signed by 700 students.
:28:55. > :29:02.Some student unions refuse to sell the Sun newspaper because
:29:03. > :29:07.of the potential for Page 3 models to cause offence.
:29:08. > :29:10.Even sombreros worn by restaurant staff advertising
:29:11. > :29:13.at a freshers' fair in Norwich were branded discriminatory with their
:29:14. > :29:22.It's all something of a far cry from the open-minded spirit
:29:23. > :29:25.of the 1960s, where difference and conflict was seen as something
:29:26. > :29:39.Here to discuss this are Toke Dahler from Leeds University Student Union,
:29:40. > :29:43.and the Times columnist David Aaronovitch.
:29:44. > :29:59.His Onto canvas? -- campus. Whenever society want to put on an event,
:30:00. > :30:03.they ask us if there is any particular risk or any reason to
:30:04. > :30:07.think that students would feel threatened or unsafe by inviting
:30:08. > :30:12.certain speakers, and we make a decision based on that assessment.
:30:13. > :30:18.What does that threat in tail? It is up to the students because we are a
:30:19. > :30:21.student union. Our primary most important task is to make sure that
:30:22. > :30:27.students feel safe and welcoming our building. Does that sound alien,
:30:28. > :30:31.David? It does because you could argue that one of the major
:30:32. > :30:35.responsibilities of a student union is to make sure that there is lively
:30:36. > :30:40.debate and discussion, that students are a part of democratic society,
:30:41. > :30:46.discussing things, rather than hermetically sealed away signed a
:30:47. > :30:54.form of intellectual rampart within which they can feel safe. The
:30:55. > :30:59.problem with what Toke is saying is that it is a problem of definition.
:31:00. > :31:05.And feel safe and what do they feel safer from? We know that in recent
:31:06. > :31:10.cases including the Muslim activist, who is now anti-religious,
:31:11. > :31:14.and it was attempted to get banned from Warwick University. They filled
:31:15. > :31:17.in a risk assessment and someone had said that she said terrible things
:31:18. > :31:21.in the past so people would not feel safer ranter and consequently she
:31:22. > :31:29.and her invitation withdrawn. The same thing with Jermaine Greer. The
:31:30. > :31:32.attempt was made to make her not speak at Cardiff because apparently
:31:33. > :31:39.transgender students might feel offended or unsafe. What does it
:31:40. > :31:46.mean for students to feel unsafe? Does it mean they can never be
:31:47. > :31:51.offended by a speaker? I am very interested in this, who has the
:31:52. > :31:56.right to define it? Who knows what feeling unsafe feels like? Not long
:31:57. > :31:59.ago a woman came to me and said that she had experienced two hate
:32:00. > :32:03.crimes, racially motivated hate crimes. She came to me and said, I
:32:04. > :32:09.would not feel safe if you invited the people from the same groups to
:32:10. > :32:15.the University union. I think that definition of feeling unsafe is
:32:16. > :32:20.better than your definition. Why? A student union is for students. It is
:32:21. > :32:26.our right to decide who comes in the building. It is the right of the
:32:27. > :32:29.students, not a Times columnist. I completely understand but that was
:32:30. > :32:32.not the point you were making. The point you were making was that
:32:33. > :32:36.somehow the judgment would be better about whether or not this person was
:32:37. > :32:44.some kind of risk. When this person comes to you, do you say to this
:32:45. > :32:47.person, what is the nature of the risk, somebody speaking, what would
:32:48. > :32:53.that represent? Let's look at what you think that is. Or do you take it
:32:54. > :32:57.on trust? Black students experience racism. They do not need to go to
:32:58. > :33:04.the student union to do that. We do not need to confront women with
:33:05. > :33:08.misogyny in the student union. We do not need to confront Jewish students
:33:09. > :33:13.with anti-Semitism. The student union is a place where students can
:33:14. > :33:22.gather and debate, but not a place where people should come and feel
:33:23. > :33:27.that... The question, there is a possibility that we are the
:33:28. > :33:32.dinosaurs here, and actually... It is a downright certainty in my case!
:33:33. > :33:37.This generation of students has said that we do not need to invite
:33:38. > :33:41.racists on. We do not need to invite in people who think that women are
:33:42. > :33:46.inferior, we are more diverse and it will add nothing to the debate. Is
:33:47. > :33:49.that wrong? It is, partially because there is not a settled view about
:33:50. > :33:53.who these people are in any case. Jermaine Greer does not fit these
:33:54. > :34:04.categories. Would you have banded Jermaine Greer? I would find it
:34:05. > :34:08.highly inappropriate and highly offensive to invite a person who
:34:09. > :34:11.does not think that transgender people are real people to
:34:12. > :34:15.transgender awareness week. You would not want somebody expressing
:34:16. > :34:21.that? Let's take it back. You would find it highly offensive to invite
:34:22. > :34:24.someone who did not think that trans-people were real people.
:34:25. > :34:29.Germaine Greer's argument, whether you accept it or not is that a
:34:30. > :34:33.transgender male to female is not a real woman. That is her view. Do you
:34:34. > :34:40.think that is a legitimate view for someone to express in front of
:34:41. > :34:46.students? I am sure that if she was invited to Leeds University union,
:34:47. > :34:49.that the students who identified as transgender would say that this was
:34:50. > :34:52.not who we want in our building. If they can convince the rest of the
:34:53. > :34:58.student body, who have democratically voted for our
:34:59. > :35:04.policy... Would they convince you? They have voted for officers like
:35:05. > :35:08.myself who believe in this platform. Have you had anyone that your
:35:09. > :35:13.students did not feel safe with? Now, and this is probably one of the
:35:14. > :35:19.biggest misconceptions. People think we banned this, that and the other.
:35:20. > :35:25.But have you had people who have caused offence? Naturally. Of
:35:26. > :35:27.course. Just this week we had debates on counterterrorism
:35:28. > :35:34.strategies and whether we should stay in the EU, on the composition
:35:35. > :35:38.of the curriculum, with even extreme views expressed. So what is not
:35:39. > :35:43.allowed? Because I struggle to see why you would want students to be
:35:44. > :35:49.cosseted from views they do not like. This is not about people being
:35:50. > :35:54.safe from views that they do not like. This is about being
:35:55. > :35:57.traumatised. How would Germaine Greer speaking traumatised people?
:35:58. > :36:03.People who were not already traumatised. In what way can you
:36:04. > :36:07.protect them from the outside world that banning Germaine Greer helps
:36:08. > :36:10.you with? This is the upside of protecting people from the outside
:36:11. > :36:14.world. This is realising that people get traumatised on the outside world
:36:15. > :36:18.and the student union should be a safe space where people do not
:36:19. > :36:23.go... Suppose the free-speech society comes to me and I am new and
:36:24. > :36:28.they say, this guy, he makes me feel unsafe with his desire to stop
:36:29. > :36:34.people speaking freely and I do not feel safe around him. Can you stop
:36:35. > :36:38.them? What should I do? You should Askey the fellow students. And if
:36:39. > :36:43.they say yes, I should ban you? If you get a petition saying that I am
:36:44. > :36:50.traumatising people, I would step down. Do you not worry, Toke, that
:36:51. > :36:56.your students are having a poor experience in the life than if they
:36:57. > :36:59.just said, we are going to take all of these people and we are going to
:37:00. > :37:04.ask them controversial questions, we might take them but we will listen
:37:05. > :37:08.to them? Students are challenged their lives. A study with people
:37:09. > :37:14.from different nationalities, they debate all kinds of things. I will
:37:15. > :37:18.challenge you to find a group people who get a wider range of views and
:37:19. > :37:24.who are confronted with more different experiences, wider range
:37:25. > :37:26.of experiences that students. In the case, why would you stop them
:37:27. > :37:30.reading the Sun, for instance? Why would you not sell it if that was
:37:31. > :37:35.what they wanted to buy. Why not allow speakers in that they want to
:37:36. > :37:40.invite. If they saw Paul... Open and able to debate, why do that? The
:37:41. > :37:48.questionnaires, if you have a racist society, why let your student union
:37:49. > :37:50.be racist as well. -- not in my union. Thank you for
:37:51. > :37:53.In their own words, the charity Kids Company used political lobbying,
:37:54. > :37:55.media briefing, arm twisting and a "bully strategy" to secure more than
:37:56. > :38:15.Talk us through that. Before us what was said today.
:38:16. > :38:17.Talk us through that. Before we knew that recently
:38:18. > :38:19.Talk us through that. Before had been given ?3
:38:20. > :38:22.Talk us through that. Before Cabinet Office, days before it
:38:23. > :38:23.collapsed, against the advice of civil servants.
:38:24. > :38:26.collapsed, against the advice of reveals is that actually it was not
:38:27. > :38:29.the reveals is that actually it was not
:38:30. > :38:32.that officials had advised ministers reveals is that actually it was not
:38:33. > :38:37.ministers felt they down to the bully strategy. The
:38:38. > :38:41.charity would come to a department and say, if we collapse, this will
:38:42. > :38:45.be terrible, particularly in South London. And they used this
:38:46. > :38:48.be terrible, particularly in South them self? Bully strategy is a
:38:49. > :38:52.phrase that the Chief Executive of the charity, Camila Batmanghelidjh,
:38:53. > :38:56.used about her approach in 2002. Effectively, they say to ministers
:38:57. > :39:01.that it will be really bad and their friends in the press would find out
:39:02. > :39:04.about it. The fact that the charity was very well connected, with Alan
:39:05. > :39:10.Yentob as its chair of trustees, that did not help. They sent out
:39:11. > :39:13.tentacles. So where does this go now? The big thing is that the story
:39:14. > :39:23.is moving now? The big thing is that the story
:39:24. > :39:27.minister who signed on to that, but actually the report gives them help
:39:28. > :39:28.because what it says is that it is not just them, they are not the only
:39:29. > :39:33.ones not just them, they are not the only
:39:34. > :39:38.to give money to this charity. It happened again and again, all the
:39:39. > :39:42.way back to 2002 and actually they asked Camila Batmanghelidjh to step
:39:43. > :39:44.down from the charity. Unusually, they can say when questioned in
:39:45. > :39:49.front of the Select they can say when questioned in
:39:50. > :39:56.money, but at least we were trying around. We did not just give it to
:39:57. > :39:59.them for nothing. Thank you very much. More on that tomorrow but that
:40:00. > :40:06.is all we have time for tonight. From all of us here, good night.
:40:07. > :40:12.is all we have time for tonight. From all of us here, good night.
:40:13. > :40:16.Good evening. Plenty of rain in the forecast for the start of Friday,
:40:17. > :40:22.particularly across England and Wales. A lot of surface water and
:40:23. > :40:24.spray. The eastern side of England should dry and brighten up, becoming
:40:25. > :40:25.quite