0:00:01 > 0:00:06Did Islamic State put a bomb on a Russian airliner? This was the
0:00:07 > 0:00:13Foreign Secretary less than an hour ago after a meeting of the Cobra
0:00:14 > 0:00:16emergency committee. We have concluded there is a significant
0:00:17 > 0:00:21possibility the crash was caused by an explosive device on-board the
0:00:22 > 0:00:24aircraft. As the investigation continues more than 15,000 British
0:00:25 > 0:00:29holiday-makers in Sharm el-Sheikh will be brought home but there will
0:00:30 > 0:00:32be no more British flights to the resort. A terra specialist and
0:00:33 > 0:00:37diplomat will tell us what they think is on. -- terra.
0:00:38 > 0:00:39Also tonight, the government plans allowing
0:00:40 > 0:00:44for extensive online surveillance were put out in the open today.
0:00:45 > 0:00:52We will be joined by the journalist who broke the Edward Snowden
0:00:53 > 0:00:54revelations. Can we strike the right balance?
0:00:55 > 0:00:57In a school for deaf children, we reveal the perpetrator of
0:00:58 > 0:01:41Vision of the UK followed by Ireland to put a stop to flights to and from
0:01:42 > 0:01:45Sharm el-Sheikh just as the Egyptian president arrived in the UK.
0:01:46 > 0:01:49Tonight, Philip Hammond said the threat was such there will be no
0:01:50 > 0:01:53British flights to and from the resort where there remains 15,000
0:01:54 > 0:01:58British tourists. This evening the Prime Minister has chaired another
0:01:59 > 0:01:59Cobra meeting at which we have reviewed information we have
0:02:00 > 0:02:04available from a range of sources. As a result of that review,
0:02:05 > 0:02:06we have concluded that there is a significant possibility that that
0:02:07 > 0:02:09crash was caused by an explosive Earlier this evening, we delayed the
0:02:10 > 0:02:16return to the UK of British-bound flights that were on the ground at
0:02:17 > 0:02:36Sharm el-Sheikh while we conducted a Unfortunately we have concluded we
0:02:37 > 0:02:40have to change our travel advice and we are advising against all but
0:02:41 > 0:02:46essential travel by air through Sharm el-Sheikh airport, which means
0:02:47 > 0:02:51there will be no UK passenger flights out to Sharm el-Sheikh from
0:02:52 > 0:02:57now. Passengers who are on the ground in Sharm el-Sheikh will be
0:02:58 > 0:03:00returned to the UK. We are working with the airlines and Egyptian
0:03:01 > 0:03:04authorities to put in place emergency procedures for additional
0:03:05 > 0:03:10screening and additional security to ensure they can get home safely,
0:03:11 > 0:03:14either on their original return dates or if they wish to leave
0:03:15 > 0:03:19earlier, on an earlier date, although I should emphasise we are
0:03:20 > 0:03:25not changing our advice with regard to the threat level in the Sharm
0:03:26 > 0:03:30el-Sheikh resort itself. I recognise this action will cause immense
0:03:31 > 0:03:34disruption and inconvenience to many people and I apologise to the people
0:03:35 > 0:03:40this evening who have gone out to the airport and have had to go back
0:03:41 > 0:03:46to their hotels. I also recognise the immense impact this will have on
0:03:47 > 0:03:50the Egyptian economy. But we have to put the safety and security of
0:03:51 > 0:03:56British nationals above all other considerations. When we are in
0:03:57 > 0:04:02possession of information we will not hesitate to act on it in order
0:04:03 > 0:04:05to protect that security and we will take whatever criticisms we
0:04:06 > 0:04:14receive. We have to act in the interests of British nationals.
0:04:15 > 0:04:21Our chief international correspondent joins us. Reaction as
0:04:22 > 0:04:25you are getting it in Cairo. To a number of things, first the idea it
0:04:26 > 0:04:31probably according to the British was a bomb, and secondly not only
0:04:32 > 0:04:36have British experts gone to the airport at Sharm el-Sheikh, but
0:04:37 > 0:04:39there will be no more flights, whatever they found tonight, led to
0:04:40 > 0:04:45the decision there will be no more flights. I have spoken to Egypt's
0:04:46 > 0:04:49Foreign Minister who is absolutely furious, saying Britain has jumped
0:04:50 > 0:04:54to conclusions and come out with what he described as an unwarranted
0:04:55 > 0:04:59statement even before investigation is concluded. He said it had been
0:05:00 > 0:05:06catastrophic for the millions of Egyptians who depend on tourism. You
0:05:07 > 0:05:11heard Philip Hammond expressing regret for Egyptians who work in the
0:05:12 > 0:05:16tourism sector, but you have to bear in mind, even in the worst times in
0:05:17 > 0:05:20Egypt, and there have been turbulent moments, Sharm el-Sheikh always
0:05:21 > 0:05:25seemed somehow far from the violence. The tourists kept coming
0:05:26 > 0:05:30stop the amount of British tourists, they used to be 2 million British
0:05:31 > 0:05:34tourists, making up the second-largest group, that is down
0:05:35 > 0:05:38to one million and that is certain to come down more, in Sharm
0:05:39 > 0:05:42el-Sheikh and other parts of Egypt, because the question will be
0:05:43 > 0:05:50raised, how secure is Egypt? I spoke to President Sisi before he came to
0:05:51 > 0:05:54London, insisting that Egypt was under control of Egyptian forces and
0:05:55 > 0:05:59if there is a doubt about that it is a doubt too many for people wanting
0:06:00 > 0:06:03to go on holiday. President Sisi arriving in the UK tonight and
0:06:04 > 0:06:07Philip Hammond has been clear there is some information the British
0:06:08 > 0:06:12Government has that leads them to believe British tourists will not be
0:06:13 > 0:06:18safe flying to or from Sharm el-Sheikh, which is a serious
0:06:19 > 0:06:24allegation. It is a very serious allegation. The Foreign Minister
0:06:25 > 0:06:28said they had taken in hand security precautions around Sharm el-Sheikh
0:06:29 > 0:06:32airport, recognised by the British, although they say there has not been
0:06:33 > 0:06:36enough. It is more than Britain, there are statements coming from the
0:06:37 > 0:06:41US, who are saying similar things to the British. You remember the same
0:06:42 > 0:06:48thing happened with Tunisia, when Philip Hammond came out and said, we
0:06:49 > 0:06:53have decided after the terrible attack at a resort, it was no longer
0:06:54 > 0:06:58safe for British tourist, which provoked a furious reaction among
0:06:59 > 0:07:03Tunisians, who like Egypt depend on tourism. You have the balance
0:07:04 > 0:07:09between the interest of British lives and livelihoods of people of
0:07:10 > 0:07:15this region, for tourism is one of the last threads in their failing
0:07:16 > 0:07:23economies and that now is at risk. Our diplomatic editor has been
0:07:24 > 0:07:28following the story today. Attention is now focused on Sharm
0:07:29 > 0:07:33el-Sheikh airport, which British security experts on their way to
0:07:34 > 0:07:40test its anti-terrorist defences. As they work, there are fears that 224
0:07:41 > 0:07:46lives may have been taken by a non-smuggled on board the Russian
0:07:47 > 0:07:51airliner. My own assumption was that it was probably more likely to be
0:07:52 > 0:08:00mechanical, but given the statement Downing Street has put out, I think
0:08:01 > 0:08:08we have to assume there is some basis on which to assume a bomb
0:08:09 > 0:08:14might have been involved. At the crash site, rescue workers are still
0:08:15 > 0:08:20gathering remains and evidence. But the facts are crystallising that the
0:08:21 > 0:08:24plane exploded at high altitudes. Yesterday the Americans revealed
0:08:25 > 0:08:28their satellites detected that blast. Today it Egyptian
0:08:29 > 0:08:34investigators confirmed what had happened, although they held open
0:08:35 > 0:08:40the possibility a catastrophic failure could have caused it. In the
0:08:41 > 0:08:43past 24 hours the UK has received intelligence confirming the bomb
0:08:44 > 0:08:48theory. We put safety as a priority and that is why we have taken the
0:08:49 > 0:08:52measures we have taken today. There have been people sent from the UK
0:08:53 > 0:08:57today to review security arrangements at the airport. That is
0:08:58 > 0:09:01taking place and it is when that review is completed we will allow
0:09:02 > 0:09:09flights there tonight to depart. At the end of September America issued
0:09:10 > 0:09:13a travel advisory saying Egypt and much of the Sinai peninsula was
0:09:14 > 0:09:17dangerous but insisting Sharm el-Sheikh was safe. Two days ago the
0:09:18 > 0:09:21US Embassy in Cairo change that, telling staff to avoid anywhere in
0:09:22 > 0:09:25the Sinai Peninsula and Sharm el-Sheikh itself was deemed too
0:09:26 > 0:09:33risky. The Egyptian Foreign Ministry responded by asking why the embassy
0:09:34 > 0:09:37had done such a thing? A measure of their sensitivity to anything that
0:09:38 > 0:09:44might cripple the tourist trade. TRANSLATION: This is one way to nail
0:09:45 > 0:09:52the stability of Egypt and image of Egypt. The plane was at 31,000 feet
0:09:53 > 0:09:58altitude. This area is under our full control. With his leader
0:09:59 > 0:10:01arriving tonight to protests in London, the Egyptian Foreign
0:10:02 > 0:10:07Minister expressed his disappointment the UK acted before
0:10:08 > 0:10:09the official enquiry had reached any definitive conclusion.
0:10:10 > 0:10:16Diplomatically, Britain's timing could not have been much worse. I
0:10:17 > 0:10:22have spoken to the Egyptian Foreign Minister and I recognise his
0:10:23 > 0:10:27concern. Of course this will have a negative impact for Egypt, but with
0:10:28 > 0:10:32respect to him, he has not seen all the information we have, and while
0:10:33 > 0:10:37we regard the Egyptians as important partners, we want to work with them
0:10:38 > 0:10:41not just on airport security but all aspects of the development of their
0:10:42 > 0:10:46record me, and the building of Anglo Egyptian relations, when we see
0:10:47 > 0:10:51something we believe represents a threat to British nationals we have
0:10:52 > 0:10:57to act. And the other consequences have to be dealt with, but we cannot
0:10:58 > 0:11:02ignore that information. Tonight, up to 20,000 British holiday-makers are
0:11:03 > 0:11:05still in Sharm el-Sheikh, with flights suspended. The government
0:11:06 > 0:11:12will soon announce how those who want to come home can do so. Mark is
0:11:13 > 0:11:17with me now. What do we know about what happened to this plane? Has
0:11:18 > 0:11:22something changed in view of intelligence? In terms of what has
0:11:23 > 0:11:27happened in the past 24 hours, it is not a piece of intelligence that
0:11:28 > 0:11:32clearly attributes this act to Islamic State in Sinai, nobody is
0:11:33 > 0:11:38saying that. They are talking about a real possibility, may well have,
0:11:39 > 0:11:42this kind of thing. It appears it goes back to analysis of material
0:11:43 > 0:11:50gathered in the run-up to the attack by interception of communications.
0:11:51 > 0:11:53The Americans seem to have had this material and interpreted it before
0:11:54 > 0:11:55we did hence the statement from the Cairo embassy to staff to avoid
0:11:56 > 0:12:01Sharm el-Sheikh on the 2nd of November. We now seem to have it.
0:12:02 > 0:12:05The Foreign Secretary's words imply it came through that sort of
0:12:06 > 0:12:09arrangement and Egypt does not yet have that material. It suggests
0:12:10 > 0:12:15whatever you want to call it, planning for an attack, possibly not
0:12:16 > 0:12:20specifying an aeroplane, but in the Sharm el-Sheikh area, which is why
0:12:21 > 0:12:25the area itself is deemed unsafe. Particular to Britain is the fact it
0:12:26 > 0:12:33is a popular destination for British tourists. Do you think we will have
0:12:34 > 0:12:38any conclusive evidence? If they find evidence of an explosion on the
0:12:39 > 0:12:44plane and trace back how exactly a bomb was put on them would give you
0:12:45 > 0:12:48conclusive answers. For the moment, everybody is playing it through
0:12:49 > 0:12:53their own prism. The UK, the country that puts the safety of its people
0:12:54 > 0:12:57first and believes it is right to collect information on a large scale
0:12:58 > 0:13:01because it can give clues to this sort of activity and allow you to
0:13:02 > 0:13:09give warning. Egypt hoping it will not be a bomb because that will be
0:13:10 > 0:13:11devastating for the tourist industry, and Russia trying to
0:13:12 > 0:13:15project, until it is conclusively proven, that this was not a bomb. To
0:13:16 > 0:13:21discuss the significance of the events today I am joined by the
0:13:22 > 0:13:27former director of global counterterrorism at MI6. In London
0:13:28 > 0:13:35UK's former ambassador to Egypt and from Oxford, an analyst who
0:13:36 > 0:13:40specialises in Islamic State. What do you make of this gathering of
0:13:41 > 0:13:44intelligence prior to the airliner being downed, which seems to lead to
0:13:45 > 0:13:51the conclusion there was an explosion? Yes indeed it seems to be
0:13:52 > 0:13:54that conclusion. Certainly there must be something serious and
0:13:55 > 0:13:58credible in the way of intelligence that suggests that, or else the
0:13:59 > 0:14:03Foreign Secretary would not make that statement. As was pointed out,
0:14:04 > 0:14:08it has not been ascribed yet to Islamic State, although clearly
0:14:09 > 0:14:13Islamic State would be the main suspect. What's more Islamic State
0:14:14 > 0:14:17has twice claimed responsibility, including today when it said again
0:14:18 > 0:14:22it was responsible for bringing down this Russian plane and did not
0:14:23 > 0:14:30reveal how it had done it but saying it would do so in due course. If it
0:14:31 > 0:14:33is Islamic State or a cell of Islamic State, what does that say
0:14:34 > 0:14:42about the organisation's capability? I think it says a number
0:14:43 > 0:14:49of things. We must not forget the local operations and tension in
0:14:50 > 0:15:01Sinai mounting as there is increasing Islamic. We must not
0:15:02 > 0:15:06forget Islamic State has a global reach and ambitions. This is in part
0:15:07 > 0:15:13a message, perhaps, to Russian potential recruits, saying to them
0:15:14 > 0:15:17they are not forgotten in the fight. From the point of view of the
0:15:18 > 0:15:21diplomatic relationship with Egypt, as a former ambassador, we hear the
0:15:22 > 0:15:27Egyptian Foreign Minister has taken this badly, but is the bigger point
0:15:28 > 0:15:29is that the worry or accusation would be Egypt cannot manage the
0:15:30 > 0:15:34terror threat? The Egyptians are understandably
0:15:35 > 0:15:39upset. They should remember that Britain has had the strongest record
0:15:40 > 0:15:42of supporting positive travel advice wherever possible, wherever it is
0:15:43 > 0:15:46consistent with the safety of our citizens. We are the ones who kept
0:15:47 > 0:15:50our advice open for Sharm el-Sheikh, or during the time after the
0:15:51 > 0:15:56revolution when others closed it off. Recently, after the attack in
0:15:57 > 0:16:00February last year, we again kept it open when others closed it off. We
0:16:01 > 0:16:09have taken things very seriously and very positively. Nobody can fault us
0:16:10 > 0:16:15on that. You know Egypt extremely well. And in the aftermath of the
0:16:16 > 0:16:19airliner being downed, or whatever happened, there was all sorts of
0:16:20 > 0:16:23conversations on BBC Radio programmes about the poorest nature
0:16:24 > 0:16:27of security at Sharm el-Sheikh. What is your experience of Sharm
0:16:28 > 0:16:35el-Sheikh airport? It's a continuous process. Whenever human security is
0:16:36 > 0:16:41involved, to keep tightening up, to keep reforming, and there were times
0:16:42 > 0:16:46when we were co-operating closely, we had experts coming from London.
0:16:47 > 0:16:51We have had a active programme, much appreciated by the Egyptian Civil
0:16:52 > 0:16:56Aviation of training in detection at airports, so this is a continuation
0:16:57 > 0:17:00of that, really. We have taken the unusual step of grounding flights to
0:17:01 > 0:17:05Britain for the moment. Indeed for the foreseeable future it seems. Sir
0:17:06 > 0:17:10Richard Barrett, if it is IS, what do you think the Russian reaction to
0:17:11 > 0:17:15this will be? I think it is very significant if it is Islamic State.
0:17:16 > 0:17:18Up till now, the Islamic State has been about state building, about
0:17:19 > 0:17:23attracting people to join it in Iraq and Syria. And where people can't,
0:17:24 > 0:17:26it's encouraged them to commit attacks, and we have seen a few
0:17:27 > 0:17:30minor attacks committed by individuals, or small groups of
0:17:31 > 0:17:33people, which may have been inspired by the Islamic State, but certainly
0:17:34 > 0:17:38not planned and directed. Here, this is a very major terrorist attack,
0:17:39 > 0:17:44probably about the most major terrorist attack on an airline since
0:17:45 > 0:17:559/11. So it has huge significance and it changes our perception of the
0:17:56 > 0:17:58Islamic State as being some sort of terrorist group into something
0:17:59 > 0:18:03other. That changes several equations within Syria as well, the
0:18:04 > 0:18:07Russian equation, you know, the Russian engagement now, has that
0:18:08 > 0:18:12encouraged terrorists to attack more directly Russian targets? We know
0:18:13 > 0:18:15there are at least 2,500 Russians fighting be the Islamic State. The
0:18:16 > 0:18:20equation of people on the other side in that should they be supplying
0:18:21 > 0:18:30weapons now to any party in Syria which might then fall into the hands
0:18:31 > 0:18:34of the Islamic State. Katherine Brown, you said IS was looking for a
0:18:35 > 0:18:41global reach. Do you think this would be the moment, if it is indeed
0:18:42 > 0:18:45IS, where IS does change, you know, you have heard Sir Richard say that
0:18:46 > 0:18:50the terror threat level will be upped because of this? Yes, I think
0:18:51 > 0:18:55it's worth remembering that Islamic State are rooted in local politics
0:18:56 > 0:18:58and it has always proclaimed that territories are important to itself
0:18:59 > 0:19:04and to its legitimacy. What is important here is that by targeting
0:19:05 > 0:19:07a Russian plane, sorry, Russian tourists, it is suggesting to
0:19:08 > 0:19:11Russian recruits to come to Islamic State and say they care about that
0:19:12 > 0:19:16fight. I'd suggest that really it remains very much a localised
0:19:17 > 0:19:20ambition at the moment and that other groups are trying to affiliate
0:19:21 > 0:19:25with Islamic State to tap into the resources and the funding that it
0:19:26 > 0:19:34has. But also the groups that are claiming affiliation with Islamic
0:19:35 > 0:19:38State are longer-standing groups, they have long had complaints
0:19:39 > 0:19:43against the Egyptian state in relation to Gaza but also in
0:19:44 > 0:19:49relation to jobs in Sinai. Just on that basis, then, if it is a
0:19:50 > 0:19:55disparate number of groups, it will make it much harder to crackdown on,
0:19:56 > 0:19:59to find them? James Watt? The Egyptians have been facing this
0:20:00 > 0:20:04problem for a long time. There are many people in Sinai, or around
0:20:05 > 0:20:06Sharm el-Sheikh, who want the tourist industry to thrive and
0:20:07 > 0:20:11continue. It isn't simply a police operation. There is a strong local
0:20:12 > 0:20:15community interest in keeping that very important economic resource
0:20:16 > 0:20:18going. We have now President al-Sisi, who has been in the country
0:20:19 > 0:20:24for less than four hours. I know you are not involved in the visit. It
0:20:25 > 0:20:28will be a diplomatic minefield, isn't it? It is a very good chance
0:20:29 > 0:20:31to explain it to him, and I'm sure, when he sees the facts, he will
0:20:32 > 0:20:34react positively. Thank you very much.
0:20:35 > 0:20:35If it becomes clear that the intelligence
0:20:36 > 0:20:37about a possible explosion on board the downed Russian plane did not
0:20:38 > 0:20:41come from the wreckage, it begs the question - was it at least in part
0:20:42 > 0:20:48If so, it could be a boost for the Government's plans, unveiled
0:20:49 > 0:20:53today for extensive surveillance powers for our digital age.
0:20:54 > 0:20:57The plans include the requirement for Internet providers to hold data
0:20:58 > 0:21:01on what websites we all visit for 12 months - measures ministers say are
0:21:02 > 0:21:07But the balance between protecting privacy and enabling agencies to
0:21:08 > 0:21:10operate in the digital age is still heavily disputed -
0:21:11 > 0:21:14particularly since Edward Snowden leaked details of mass surveillance
0:21:15 > 0:21:27We asked Nick Hopkins to look at how it might work.
0:21:28 > 0:21:36Today, we discovered the boundaries of our surveillance state. What the
0:21:37 > 0:21:41spies want to spy on. The police want to pry on. And why. Who will
0:21:42 > 0:21:46stop these intrusive powers from being abused? So how would this work
0:21:47 > 0:21:51in practice? Let's look at three examples. In the first, police
0:21:52 > 0:21:55receive a tip-off that a teacher and a pupil are having an illegal
0:21:56 > 0:22:00relationship and are regularly talking on the phone. Both deny it.
0:22:01 > 0:22:08A detective who wants to see their phone records has to get the OK from
0:22:09 > 0:22:10two specialist police officers. They will decide if getting this
0:22:11 > 0:22:14information is necessary and proportionate. They say he can. A
0:22:15 > 0:22:18print-out of the numbers called show the two haven't been in contact and
0:22:19 > 0:22:30the officer concludes the initial claims were false.
0:22:31 > 0:22:34In another case, a university student has been radicalised and the
0:22:35 > 0:22:37police want to know more. The police officer gets the OK from two
0:22:38 > 0:22:42colleagues. He is allowed to get basic details of who the suspect has
0:22:43 > 0:22:45called and e-mailed and what websites he has looked at. If the
0:22:46 > 0:22:50detective wants further information, he has to seek a warrant from the
0:22:51 > 0:22:54Home Secretary and a judge. They give their approval and the police
0:22:55 > 0:23:00can now listen to the suspect's phone conversations and read his
0:23:01 > 0:23:05e-mails. A final example - local councils, a
0:23:06 > 0:23:09little less serious, perhaps, but supposing they suspect someone of
0:23:10 > 0:23:14selling fake watches. In theory, they can go via a magistrate to get
0:23:15 > 0:23:18hold of phone data. But the new law prevents them accessing the
0:23:19 > 0:23:23suspect's Internet records. This draft law appears to have clipped
0:23:24 > 0:23:29their wings. Judges signing warrants was one of Theresa May's concessions
0:23:30 > 0:23:36to privacy campaigners. But they say it's a con. Judges can only say no
0:23:37 > 0:23:43on certain limited grounds. The arguments have already begun.
0:23:44 > 0:23:50Joining me now from Rio is the journalist who broke the Edward
0:23:51 > 0:23:54Snowden story, and here with me is David Anderson. David Anderson,
0:23:55 > 0:23:59presumably, you were the man with oversight, you must have some
0:24:00 > 0:24:03concerns, don't you, at what Liberty say also be a breathtaking attack on
0:24:04 > 0:24:07the Internet security of every man, woman and child in our country? I
0:24:08 > 0:24:11have oversight of the terrorism law. I did a report on the surveillance.
0:24:12 > 0:24:18There are three judges who have oversight of surveillance. What this
0:24:19 > 0:24:22law is trying to add to the dizzying range of powers the intelligence
0:24:23 > 0:24:26agencies already have is one more power, albeit quite a serious one,
0:24:27 > 0:24:30and that's the power to require service providers in this country to
0:24:31 > 0:24:33keep Internet records. You seem to be suggesting the dizzying range of
0:24:34 > 0:24:37powers are necessary? Dizzying range? The reason I welcome this
0:24:38 > 0:24:41Bill is, for the first time in this country, and there aren't many
0:24:42 > 0:24:45countries who have done this, it sets out in terms what these powers
0:24:46 > 0:24:51are. They would have surprised a lot of people two or three years ago.
0:24:52 > 0:24:55They are all set out there. Is there something to be said for that, what
0:24:56 > 0:25:02this Bill does is put it all out in the open? Yeah, I agree with what Mr
0:25:03 > 0:25:06Anderson has just said. Before Edward Snowden came forward, the
0:25:07 > 0:25:12thing that bothered him the most is not the spying itself, but the fact
0:25:13 > 0:25:15this was implemented in total secrecy in democracies. His argument
0:25:16 > 0:25:18was if we are going to allow the government to spy on everything we
0:25:19 > 0:25:21are doing on the Internet, the government should have to come
0:25:22 > 0:25:24forward to say this is what we are doing, we want your permission under
0:25:25 > 0:25:28the law to do it. It is the first time they have been forced to do it.
0:25:29 > 0:25:31That is a positive step. The British Government, we are the first
0:25:32 > 0:25:36government to mandate Internet providers to store a year's worth of
0:25:37 > 0:25:42browsing history. By the same token, do you think the fact it is out in
0:25:43 > 0:25:46the open makes that OK? No, to be perfectly honest, I don't think a
0:25:47 > 0:25:50Bill like this would be presentable, let alone viable in other Western
0:25:51 > 0:25:54country, besides the UK, which does tend to be on the far end of the
0:25:55 > 0:25:59pro-surveillance spectrum. It is radical to say that every single
0:26:00 > 0:26:02person's browsing history must be kept and stored and made available
0:26:03 > 0:26:07to the Government if the Government wants it. Even the judicial review
0:26:08 > 0:26:12that Theresa May was pitching today, as the Conservative MP David Davis
0:26:13 > 0:26:15pointed out today, it is an illusion because the narrow scope of that
0:26:16 > 0:26:20review makes it that it is going to be a rubber-stamp. Is it an
0:26:21 > 0:26:22illusion? I think judicial authorisation will be a big
0:26:23 > 0:26:26improvement. I pushed very hard for it in my report. There is no point
0:26:27 > 0:26:30doing it if the judge is going to be a rubber-stamp. This has to be
0:26:31 > 0:26:33judges who are properly supported, technically, legally, who are able
0:26:34 > 0:26:38to get into the issues and who are, from time to time, able to say no.
0:26:39 > 0:26:41Judges aren't democratically accountable? Neither is the
0:26:42 > 0:26:45Secretary of State when it comes to warrants. You name me one example of
0:26:46 > 0:26:48a warrant in respect of which the Secretary of State has been held to
0:26:49 > 0:26:52account in Parliament. It doesn't happen, partly because it's a
0:26:53 > 0:26:55criminal offence to disclose the existence of the warrant. Do you
0:26:56 > 0:27:02accept as far as journalism is concerned, by holding and having
0:27:03 > 0:27:07access to a year's worth of records, a source, a journalistic source
0:27:08 > 0:27:11could be as it were jigsawed identified in one way and that is an
0:27:12 > 0:27:16erosion of our liberty? What the Bill has sought to do is to build on
0:27:17 > 0:27:21the existing practice by making sure that there is never any application
0:27:22 > 0:27:24for a journalist's communication data without the authorisation of a
0:27:25 > 0:27:30judge. We have to assume the judges are going to be alert to that point.
0:27:31 > 0:27:39It is fair to say that there isn't exactly a public outcry about this
0:27:40 > 0:27:42in as much as the latest report says 53% in a survey backed the
0:27:43 > 0:27:47Government and there is cross-party support for this: Do you think the
0:27:48 > 0:27:52mood, and because of what we have been talking about, about the
0:27:53 > 0:27:56possibility that the IS was involved in that airline downing, that
0:27:57 > 0:28:08actually people support this in the insecure age in which we live? Yeah,
0:28:09 > 0:28:14of course. Fear is a potent motivator. I think it is so crucial
0:28:15 > 0:28:20to note that allowing the Government to do bulk surveillance, which is
0:28:21 > 0:28:23what this Bill allows, it makes it harder to find people plotting
0:28:24 > 0:28:27terrorist attacks than when you are focussed on the specific individuals
0:28:28 > 0:28:31and concentrating on them, when you have reason to believe they are
0:28:32 > 0:28:34engaged in a terrorist attack, that bulk surveillance makes it more
0:28:35 > 0:28:41difficult, not more easy, not easier for the Government to break those
0:28:42 > 0:28:45plots up. So, it's a big broad brush hammer, to crack a nut? You have to
0:28:46 > 0:28:48wonder if it makes it more difficult, why they are spending all
0:28:49 > 0:28:56this money doing it. It is perhaps that they are not as smart... I was
0:28:57 > 0:29:01sceptical about this. I went into this as an independent person with a
0:29:02 > 0:29:06fresh pair of eyes. And what I saw, I got GCHQ to talk me through
0:29:07 > 0:29:10examples of how did bulk collection produced disruption of a major
0:29:11 > 0:29:14terrorist attack. They gave me six. People can look at them. I hope
0:29:15 > 0:29:21other people will have a chance to question GCHQ, as I did, to look at
0:29:22 > 0:29:28the contemporaneous intelligence reports. I wonder, the authorities
0:29:29 > 0:29:32seem to be behind the renegades all the time and every time you put a
0:29:33 > 0:29:37new piece of legislation out, someone devises some special hacking
0:29:38 > 0:29:42ability to get round everything. Are you worried about whether this is
0:29:43 > 0:29:47going to work at all? Well, I think - as far as what Mr Anderson said,
0:29:48 > 0:29:51if you go into the GCHQ's offices and they show you what they want you
0:29:52 > 0:29:54to see, they can probably convince you of anything they want you to
0:29:55 > 0:29:58know. What surveillance experts have said, people who have worked in
0:29:59 > 0:30:02these agencies have said, mass surveillance makes it harder. Every
0:30:03 > 0:30:06tyrant in the world is on the world for surveillance technology, not
0:30:07 > 0:30:09because they want to stop terrorism, but the more you know about your
0:30:10 > 0:30:14population, the more power you have over it. That is the reason that
0:30:15 > 0:30:16governments have always saw mass, broad surveillance. It is a really
0:30:17 > 0:30:20important point to know. Thank you. As work on the Goddard Inquiry into
0:30:21 > 0:30:23historical child abuse in England and Wales continues, a report
0:30:24 > 0:30:26by Newsnight and See Hear can for the first time name the perpetrator
0:30:27 > 0:30:31of horrific abuse carried out at a London school for deaf children
0:30:32 > 0:30:36over three decades. The abuser was allowed to prey
0:30:37 > 0:30:39on the school's pupils even after he was convicted of
0:30:40 > 0:30:42indecently assaulting two of them, and barred by the Department for
0:30:43 > 0:30:44Education from being a proprietor His victims, who fought
0:30:45 > 0:30:56and failed to win justice, Apologies, we had planned to bring
0:42:49 > 0:42:52you a report on the history and successive UK grime music. We will
0:42:53 > 0:42:57have it for you later this week. Good night.