:00:00. > :00:07.Flights to the UK from the stricken resort of Sharm el-Sheik will resume
:00:08. > :00:13.tomorrow, following the government's decision last night to suspend them.
:00:14. > :00:17.But has the diplomatic damage already been done?
:00:18. > :00:20.It made for an awkward press conference this
:00:21. > :00:23.afternoon between David Cameron and the visiting President Sisi.
:00:24. > :00:26.Has the Prime Minister embarrassed his guest?
:00:27. > :00:37.We'll ask the former Egyptian Foreign Minister.
:00:38. > :00:44.British officials raised concerns last year about the lax security in
:00:45. > :00:46.Sharm el-Sheikh and Cairo. One man's experience at Sharm
:00:47. > :00:48.el-Sheik airport may indicate why. We put the main suitcase onto the
:00:49. > :00:51.conveyor, checked the passports. Then went to the gate ready to board
:00:52. > :00:55.the plane and at no point did we And it's been called the most
:00:56. > :01:04.disruptive change to higher education for 20 years - a new green
:01:05. > :01:09.paper is published tomorrow on the We'll speak to the Universities
:01:10. > :01:23.Minister, Jo Johnston. As speculation about what caused it
:01:24. > :01:25.continues, the British Government's response to Saturday's air crash in
:01:26. > :01:32.Egypt has cast a diplomatic shadow over the state visit of Egyptian
:01:33. > :01:37.President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi. He claims that British concerns
:01:38. > :01:40.about safety at Sharm el-Sheikh airport, whence the doomed flight
:01:41. > :01:43.embarked for Moscow before breaking up over the Sinai Peninsula, killing
:01:44. > :01:46.all 224 people on board, were addressed ten months ago to
:01:47. > :01:57.the satisfaction of British Whitehall sources have told this
:01:58. > :02:04.programme they feared the situation had slipped back in recent months.
:02:05. > :02:06.Thousands of British tourists will fly back from Sharm el-Sheikh
:02:07. > :02:08.without the luggage tomorrow after David Cameron gave the go-ahead for
:02:09. > :02:11.air travel to resume. The Prime Minister's position also
:02:12. > :02:13.appears to have irked Russian president, Vladimir Putin,
:02:14. > :02:16.who contended during a phone call between the two men today, that
:02:17. > :02:18.countries should have waited for crash investigations to be completed
:02:19. > :02:21.before issuing any no-fly orders. Newsnight's diplomatic editor
:02:22. > :02:34.Mark Urban reports. With Egyptian exiles still angry
:02:35. > :02:39.about the way the army crushed the Muslim Brotherhood, this visit could
:02:40. > :02:43.easily have been dominated by discussion of human rights. The
:02:44. > :02:48.aircraft tragedy redefined everything and President Sisi was on
:02:49. > :02:52.the offensive today, pointing out Britain had checked out Sharm
:02:53. > :03:01.el-Sheikh's security earlier this year.
:03:02. > :03:07.TRANSLATION: Ten months ago, we were asked by our British friends to send
:03:08. > :03:12.teams to Sharm el-Sheikh airport to make sure all the security
:03:13. > :03:15.procedures there are well enough and provide the adequate safety and
:03:16. > :03:22.security for the passengers. And we understood their concern because we
:03:23. > :03:28.are interested in the safety and security of our nationals. The
:03:29. > :03:31.British experts, the President insisted had left satisfied. So
:03:32. > :03:36.while a further British team has re-examined security precautions at
:03:37. > :03:40.the airport, thousands of holiday-makers have been waiting to
:03:41. > :03:44.come home. Their journeys will resume with hand luggage only
:03:45. > :03:48.tomorrow. What caused Britain to stop, but wasn't serious enough to
:03:49. > :03:56.require major changes at this airport, or holds some other
:03:57. > :03:59.countries from carrying on flying? The government has cited secret
:04:00. > :04:03.intelligence to explain its decision, but such information
:04:04. > :04:07.rarely offers absolute certainty. That is why now, just as in June
:04:08. > :04:14.following the attack in Tunisia, some other governments are not
:04:15. > :04:19.matching Britain's advice to citizens to leave immediately. What
:04:20. > :04:22.one can conclude from all this? Mainly the British are far less
:04:23. > :04:30.willing to take risks in these situations. I act on the basis of
:04:31. > :04:35.intelligence I receive. I act on the basis of advice that I get. Of
:04:36. > :04:38.course, I cannot be sure, my experts cannot be sure that it was a
:04:39. > :04:44.terrorist bomb that brought down by Russian plane. If the intelligence
:04:45. > :04:49.is and the judgment is, that is more likely than not outcome, I think it
:04:50. > :04:55.is right to act in the way that I did. Sharm el-Sheikh security has
:04:56. > :05:00.been breached before. For example, with a wave of suicide bombings ten
:05:01. > :05:04.years ago. Egypt's responded by creating a large security zone
:05:05. > :05:08.around the resort. But in the past double macro years, fighting with
:05:09. > :05:14.Islamic militants further north has spread, making much of the Peninsula
:05:15. > :05:19.area and raising questions again about the resort's safety. I think
:05:20. > :05:25.the Egyptian authorities found themselves in a situation where they
:05:26. > :05:31.constantly try to make the case Egypt is engaged in a war on terror
:05:32. > :05:35.and the international security should support it or back it up.
:05:36. > :05:40.When questions are raised about civil rights abuses of human rights
:05:41. > :05:46.violations, they ought to remember they take place against the backdrop
:05:47. > :05:50.of war on terror. At the same time, pushing Egypt as a tourism
:05:51. > :05:56.destination, where things are fine and the country is very safe and
:05:57. > :06:01.this people ought to come. It is difficult to square that circle, to
:06:02. > :06:06.have those two narratives in play at the same time. Central to the past
:06:07. > :06:10.few days has been the intelligence gathered by agencies like GCHQ and
:06:11. > :06:15.its interpretation. Tonight, an American official contradict did the
:06:16. > :06:21.British government saying Britain has a much lower threshold in react
:06:22. > :06:23.to chatter and America's assessment as to whether it was a bomb hasn't
:06:24. > :06:26.been changed by recent intelligence. In a moment,
:06:27. > :06:28.we will be hearing from a member of President Sisi's delegation here
:06:29. > :06:31.in London, but first, let's get perspectives from Gabriel Gatehouse
:06:32. > :06:44.in Moscow and Lyse Doucet in Cairo. Gabriel, what have the Russians been
:06:45. > :06:49.saying today in response to these claims by Britain? The Russians are
:06:50. > :06:56.very much trying to pour cold water on any suggestion it was an act of
:06:57. > :06:59.terrorism. Russia's head of aviation suggested the British might have
:07:00. > :07:05.been indulging in fantasies. He says they would follow the fax and the
:07:06. > :07:10.best and would take several months. My colleagues here managed to speak
:07:11. > :07:19.to a spokesman for the Foreign Ministry, who said she was shocked
:07:20. > :07:22.and surprised to realised the UK might be in possession that could
:07:23. > :07:28.shed light on this and suggested the UK might be following certain aims
:07:29. > :07:33.by not sharing that information. The big unspoken fear, of course, this
:07:34. > :07:38.attack was some sort of retaliation for Russia's involvement in Syria. I
:07:39. > :07:42.asked the Kremlin spokesman, if that turned out to be the case would it
:07:43. > :07:48.affect Russia's actions in Syria? He said bluntly, this situation has
:07:49. > :07:54.nothing to do with Syria. So it is an unspoken fear, as well as
:07:55. > :07:58.metaphorically for the public. What is the mood in Moscow? It is one of
:07:59. > :08:02.the biggest air disasters in Russian history, are the citizens not asking
:08:03. > :08:09.questions about the Syrian connection? It is the biggest air
:08:10. > :08:14.disaster in Russia's history. The citizens on social media are asking
:08:15. > :08:17.these questions, but extraordinarily, in the papers you
:08:18. > :08:23.will see almost no discussion of this. I read a 2000 word article
:08:24. > :08:27.today which discussed airline safety, the age of aircraft, whether
:08:28. > :08:31.foreign aircraft should be allowed to be used in Russia. Not a mention
:08:32. > :08:37.of the theory this might be brought down by a bomb. It may be, as one
:08:38. > :08:41.newspaper suggested, the British press is a little bit hysterical,
:08:42. > :08:46.more dramatic than the Russian press. But there is something else
:08:47. > :08:49.at work. For the first month at the Russia's intervention in Syria, it
:08:50. > :08:55.was broadcast daily on the television. It was almost Hollywood
:08:56. > :09:01.standards with drone footage set to music, showing Russia as the strong
:09:02. > :09:05.force that is tackling Islamic extremism, Islamic terrorism. All of
:09:06. > :09:09.that has been pushed to the back now. I think there really is an
:09:10. > :09:16.nervousness here, that if this does turn out to be some sort of revenge
:09:17. > :09:21.attack for Russia's involvement in Syria, opinion here will shift, not
:09:22. > :09:27.only for their support for their actions in Syria, but also for
:09:28. > :09:31.support for President Putin and the Kremlin itself. It was supposed to
:09:32. > :09:38.be something of a show these visit for the Egyptian president, it is
:09:39. > :09:43.not turning out verse. How much damage as this cause diplomatically
:09:44. > :09:49.away from the television cameras? It was always going to be a visit with
:09:50. > :09:53.sensitivities, but the sensitivities shifted to another level. It is
:09:54. > :09:59.undeniable the developments over the investigation into the Russian
:10:00. > :10:04.airliner have damaged, in a certain degree, the relationship between
:10:05. > :10:09.Britain and Egypt. As one of the senior members of President CC's
:10:10. > :10:15.delegation said to me, it is supposed to be a partnership. You
:10:16. > :10:18.have to look at both sides. David Cameron has to come out and put the
:10:19. > :10:23.interests of the dish tourists first, but he said what about our
:10:24. > :10:27.tourism industry, the millions who depend upon it? Why didn't they show
:10:28. > :10:30.an understanding that we should have come to an agreement before the
:10:31. > :10:36.statement came out as to what could be done? I understand after
:10:37. > :10:40.residents CC's delegation arrived in London, there were hours of
:10:41. > :10:43.discussion back and forth from others from the delegation to try to
:10:44. > :10:48.come to some understanding. The Egyptians said, couldn't there be an
:10:49. > :10:54.announcement of a suspension of flights for 24 hours. The British
:10:55. > :10:58.said it wasn't enough, there are 20,000 tourists and we need to be
:10:59. > :11:01.clear. I understand it was the Prime Minister who said, we have asked the
:11:02. > :11:06.Egyptians to take a certain amount of steps. Egyptians said they have
:11:07. > :11:11.carried them out, it wasn't good enough for Britain and they decided
:11:12. > :11:14.to take the dramatic announcement. Britain would have liked David
:11:15. > :11:18.Cameron and President Sisi to come out and announced this is our joint
:11:19. > :11:24.plan of action. The Egyptians said, no. I pushed back and said we simply
:11:25. > :11:28.cannot make up political statement. We need to discuss the technical
:11:29. > :11:35.side and the implementation. We're not going do it. There was a strain,
:11:36. > :11:37.but it has to be underlined, both countries know, both governments
:11:38. > :11:42.know, there is too much at stake and they have to work together. As one
:11:43. > :11:46.member of the British government said to me, all of this has touched
:11:47. > :11:48.some very raw nerves on the Egyptian side and it will be raw for some
:11:49. > :11:51.time. Thank you both very much. Mohammed al-Orabi is in the UK as
:11:52. > :11:54.part of President Sisi's delegation. He's a former Foreign Minister
:11:55. > :12:05.of Egypt. When did President Sisi find out
:12:06. > :12:10.what David Cameron was planning to do because we heard the announcement
:12:11. > :12:15.of the cessation of flights while the delegation was in the air? I
:12:16. > :12:20.don't ring so. My information is saying President Sisi received a
:12:21. > :12:25.telephone call from the Prime Minister of written, David Cameron,
:12:26. > :12:30.the day before his departure to the UK. We don't know the content of
:12:31. > :12:37.this telephone call. But I guess as the two leaders had information,
:12:38. > :12:43.exchanged information on that regards, and I think President Sisi
:12:44. > :12:49.was determined to fulfil the visit and to come and argue, to listen and
:12:50. > :12:54.give also his points of view to the British government and try to solve
:12:55. > :12:58.the matter. To be clear, you think he flew here in the knowledge are
:12:59. > :13:07.Prime Minister was about to effectively ban flights from Cairo
:13:08. > :13:12.and Sharm el-Sheikh? No, the decision was taken yesterday evening
:13:13. > :13:14.from the British side. The David Cameron told our president there is
:13:15. > :13:22.some information about a certain case. Has he shared that
:13:23. > :13:25.intelligence? I am not sure. How come the president is coming here
:13:26. > :13:30.today and he received a telephone call from the British Prime Minister
:13:31. > :13:35.and I think they had a discussion about this matter. It has been a
:13:36. > :13:39.little embarrassing for the delegation to arrive in a country as
:13:40. > :13:43.backcountry's leader and answers to the people who live here they are
:13:44. > :13:50.not safe to fly to your country? It is not an embarrassment, but in this
:13:51. > :13:53.kind of relationship between two friendly countries, I guess we are
:13:54. > :14:00.open to receive some criticism every now and again. Also you had the
:14:01. > :14:05.patience to listen to us and to listen about our worries on
:14:06. > :14:09.different issues. We had many confrontations during the
:14:10. > :14:14.discussion, many issues on the Middle East. You know, we are living
:14:15. > :14:20.in a volatile region. Egypt's is sitting in a turbulent sea. Due to
:14:21. > :14:27.the wisdom of the president, I think we managed to overcome these
:14:28. > :14:34.difficulties for the last, I would say 17 or 18 months. You describe it
:14:35. > :14:38.as a turbulent region and we have two UK aviation experts who flew in
:14:39. > :14:42.yesterday and have apparently informed the Prime Minister, it's
:14:43. > :14:47.not safe. You cannot guarantee the security of British tourists at all,
:14:48. > :14:54.by the sounds of it? I don't think this is the absolute judgment. Egypt
:14:55. > :15:01.is always open for security delegations from European countries
:15:02. > :15:04.to check the measurements of security at airports of Egypt's, not
:15:05. > :15:15.just Cairo and Sharm el-Sheikh, but other regions. We didn't receive any
:15:16. > :15:22.observations whatsoever for the last ten months. Including the British
:15:23. > :15:29.side. So, it was a bad incident to have this kind of accident and we
:15:30. > :15:34.are so sorry the Russians lost their lives in this accident. We also
:15:35. > :15:38.appreciate any efforts exerted by any government to guarantee the
:15:39. > :15:45.safety of their citizens. We really appreciate what David Cameron took
:15:46. > :15:48.to maintain the security of the British people. We're not against
:15:49. > :16:00.that, but the thing, I think is premature. By our government? You
:16:01. > :16:05.think David Cameron move to early? Too early, we didn't check out the
:16:06. > :16:08.black box of this plane. You have seen our report this evening and I
:16:09. > :16:11.spoke to a woman who flew back on Saturday and her son walk through
:16:12. > :16:17.the baggage check without having a 2 litre bottle of liquid notice. We
:16:18. > :16:21.heard from one tourist who didn't even have his bags checked at all.
:16:22. > :16:26.It paints a very ugly picture and to describe the Prime Minister's
:16:27. > :16:33.caution as premature seems perhaps a little disingenuous? Haps, but the
:16:34. > :16:39.basics of his decision on information suggesting it was an
:16:40. > :16:45.explosive device on the plane, that was the statement by your government
:16:46. > :16:49.and by the Americans. The Americans may be tracking back slightly from
:16:50. > :16:54.that position, but you have no knowledge or understanding of
:16:55. > :16:57.decisively where David Cameron got the idea that it was increasingly
:16:58. > :17:04.likely, which I think was his phrase? We don't know from what
:17:05. > :17:11.source he had this information. You began by portraying the visit as
:17:12. > :17:13.cordial and successful? It was. Despite not knowing why the Prime
:17:14. > :17:26.Minister has effectively banned people?
:17:27. > :17:34.In the meantime, as your correspondence from Cairo said,
:17:35. > :17:39.British tourism is 1.5% of our GDP. It is a great loss. I look forward
:17:40. > :17:41.to hearing more from you, Ambassador.
:17:42. > :17:42.Whatever conclusions the investigations arrive at and
:17:43. > :17:45.whatever transpires politically, it's clear that airport security has
:17:46. > :17:49.Newsnight has learned that improvements implemented at Sharm
:17:50. > :17:54.el-Sheikh airport, in response to British concerns just
:17:55. > :17:56.under a year ago, were feared by officials to have
:17:57. > :17:59.According to Whitehall sources, there were particular issues with
:18:00. > :18:04.baggage handling and access to restricted areas.
:18:05. > :18:07.Newsnight's Nick Hopkins has been investigating the claims
:18:08. > :18:10.and examining the broader question of whether airports can ever be
:18:11. > :18:15.If it was a bomb that brought down Metrojet flight 628,
:18:16. > :18:21.the question is, how did it get through Sharm el-Sheikh airport?
:18:22. > :18:28.As passengers prepare to fly out tomorrow, stories emerged today
:18:29. > :18:37.Claims of guards nodding off and playing Candy Crush on their phones.
:18:38. > :18:46.An official asked for ?20 in Stirling to jump the queue.
:18:47. > :18:56.We literally avoided the whole queue, we went right to the front.
:18:57. > :19:00.And then we put the main suitcase onto the conveyor, we checked the
:19:01. > :19:05.passports. We then went to the checkout, to the gate, ready to
:19:06. > :19:10.board the plane, and at no point did we have our bags or our person
:19:11. > :19:16.checked and only then did we realise the magnitude of what had happened.
:19:17. > :19:26.President Sese conceded Britain had checked security at Sharm el-Sheikh
:19:27. > :19:29.this year. -- President Sisi. As things improved, officials feared
:19:30. > :19:33.the situation had slipped again in recent months.
:19:34. > :19:38.There was on ongoing programme to help Egyptians in any way we could
:19:39. > :19:43.to improve security and we worked very well together, they were
:19:44. > :19:51.extremely appreciative. Egypt was very grateful. These decisions are
:19:52. > :19:54.not taken lightly at all and the history of the entire system in
:19:55. > :19:58.Whitehall has looked at security in Egypt over the last years and the
:19:59. > :20:03.premise is already taken a direct interest in cell. Leaves me in no
:20:04. > :20:07.doubt this is a very heavily considered decision and in my view,
:20:08. > :20:12.it must be well founded. The Army at Heathrow, after 9/11,
:20:13. > :20:16.airport security was transformed, liquids were banned and shoes were
:20:17. > :20:21.x-rayed. Queues were ever longer. But some experts say it is not fair
:20:22. > :20:25.to single out Sharm el-Sheikh. I actually do not think that
:20:26. > :20:29.security at that airport is necessarily worse than at many other
:20:30. > :20:33.airports around the world and it is very easy with hindsight to focus
:20:34. > :20:38.all our attentions on that one location when we know that there are
:20:39. > :20:43.huge limitations to the security systems around the world. Not only
:20:44. > :20:45.in the Middle East, not only in Africa, but even in the Western
:20:46. > :20:51.world. In June this year in America. Under
:20:52. > :20:56.-- undercover agents from homeland security but screeners to the test
:20:57. > :21:00.at dozens of the nation's begin -- busiest airports and they failed
:21:01. > :21:08.miserably. The scams fails to pick up in 67 out of 17 tests guns.
:21:09. > :21:11.Security experts have told others security at Sharm el-Sheikh can be
:21:12. > :21:16.poor but maybe not for the reasons you might imagine. They describe a
:21:17. > :21:20.culture of deference from airport security staff towards travellers
:21:21. > :21:27.which means that some people do not get checked and challenged. It is
:21:28. > :21:32.equally possible that if this was a bomb, it was an inside job. The
:21:33. > :21:33.official report could take months and the controversy is unlikely to
:21:34. > :21:40.The Sinai Peninsula, the eastern part of Egypt that joins
:21:41. > :21:43.the country to Israel, is the home of Sinai Province, the IS affiliated
:21:44. > :21:47.militant group who claim to have downed the Russian airliner.
:21:48. > :21:50.Here to explore who they are, and how the Egyptian authorities have
:21:51. > :22:04.Part of the Egyptian presidential delegation, Mohammed al-Orabi. This
:22:05. > :22:13.woman is living in exile after being sentenced to death under the current
:22:14. > :22:19.government. And from the USA... I will begin with you. Have the
:22:20. > :22:25.policies of President Sisi had an effect upon terrorist activities or
:22:26. > :22:30.encountering extremism? I think a heavy-handed security approach in
:22:31. > :22:35.Sinai and elsewhere in Egypt has proven to be a failure. And quoting
:22:36. > :22:42.President Sisi himself before the military coup of 2013 when he was
:22:43. > :22:47.addressing the Army, he himself said that a heavy-handed security
:22:48. > :22:56.approach in Sinai would backfire. And it would turn Sinai into a
:22:57. > :23:00.would-be South Sudan. And this is probably, he forgot about that. And
:23:01. > :23:05.I think the current policies, they are precisely contributing to this
:23:06. > :23:10.scenario. Tell me about those policies, what you mean by
:23:11. > :23:16.heavy-handed? What I mean is a misguided security approach in
:23:17. > :23:23.Sinai. As a recent report by humans rights watch suggests the current
:23:24. > :23:25.the current policies in Sinai target civilians -- Human Rights Watch.
:23:26. > :23:30.They displace thousands of civilians, at least 10,000 civilians
:23:31. > :23:41.have been displaced from their homes which were demolished by the
:23:42. > :23:47.military of Mr Sisi. And at the same time, we can see the continuing rise
:23:48. > :23:56.of militant insurgency in Sinai and even in the heart of Cairo we have
:23:57. > :23:59.seen bombings carried out for which Isis has claimed responsibility. So
:24:00. > :24:06.we see concrete evidence that the current security policy of the
:24:07. > :24:17.regime is counter-productive. Concrete evidence, is the claim,
:24:18. > :24:22.Ambassador. No, I beg to differ. I do not think so. If you will let us
:24:23. > :24:29.look to the situation in Egypt now, this is what we had during our
:24:30. > :24:32.meetings here in the House of Commons and the House of Lords.
:24:33. > :24:39.Everybody is praising the fact that Egypt now is on the way to having a
:24:40. > :24:45.stable country. To have law and order inside the country. Yes, we
:24:46. > :24:50.have some terrorist attacks here and there, especially in Sinai, but I
:24:51. > :24:55.think the Army and police, they are capable to tackle these issues. It
:24:56. > :25:01.will take some time. And don't forget, a lot of infiltrations
:25:02. > :25:07.happen after the revolution of January the 25th. So Sinai is a safe
:25:08. > :25:15.haven for many terrorists from different countries. And different
:25:16. > :25:18.factions. The ramifications of that still being felt today. Let me go to
:25:19. > :25:23.somebody with less of a vested interest than my other guests. Could
:25:24. > :25:28.you tell me how easy it is to get a clear picture of what is in Sinai?
:25:29. > :25:33.It is quite difficult to get a clear picture of what is happening in
:25:34. > :25:36.Sinai. There has been a ban on reporting from Sinai so it is very
:25:37. > :25:42.difficult to get concrete information. But it is also very
:25:43. > :25:46.difficult to jump into the kind of claims being made and I suspect the
:25:47. > :25:51.truth is fall somewhere in the middle. It is difficult to say the
:25:52. > :25:55.current policies are going to read to radicalisation but it would be
:25:56. > :26:02.very foolish to discount the fact they could be. So I honestly think
:26:03. > :26:06.the best thing to do, the only thing to do is to say it is very possible
:26:07. > :26:13.they could be contributing to this. Although in the fact of the province
:26:14. > :26:17.of Sinai which was formed in about 2011, they predate the current
:26:18. > :26:23.revulsion and they started in 2011 -- revolution. They did mostly
:26:24. > :26:29.attack Israel until President more sleep when they switched their
:26:30. > :26:35.attention to security personnel -- resident more sleep. How feasible is
:26:36. > :26:40.it for a territory like Sharm el-Sheikh to remain safe for
:26:41. > :26:46.visitors? It depends where you are. In the province of Sinai, they
:26:47. > :26:50.operate mostly in North Sinai and most tourism happens in the cell.
:26:51. > :26:56.But if you are talking about a terrorist strike, it could happen
:26:57. > :26:59.anywhere. You do not have to be standing in the middle of North
:27:00. > :27:04.Sinai fulsome thing to happen, it could happen anywhere. It is going
:27:05. > :27:10.to be difficult to get the Egyptian government to sit down and say, we
:27:11. > :27:14.are going to stop battling Isis because that is a serious security
:27:15. > :27:19.situation. On the other hand, the Egyptian government has mostly been
:27:20. > :27:23.in reactive most -- to mud for the last 4.5 years so I do not know
:27:24. > :27:30.there is a long-term plan. -- reactive mud. Would you fly there
:27:31. > :27:36.tomorrow? I am flying in a couple of weeks so yes. I am an Egyptian, so
:27:37. > :27:40.it is home, so I fly there all the time and I am not the best person to
:27:41. > :27:44.answer! I have never found myself in a situation before where one studio
:27:45. > :27:49.guest has been sentenced to death and a regime of which another studio
:27:50. > :27:54.guest is a member. Are you comfortable with that? No, of course
:27:55. > :28:00.not. She is Egyptian and I guess she is able of course to refuse and try
:28:01. > :28:07.to refuse that judgment, that verdict. She comes back, I guess she
:28:08. > :28:12.will face a fair trial. And now we will have a new Parliament. This
:28:13. > :28:21.Parliament will have a human rights committee which will defend these
:28:22. > :28:27.people and that is why... Would you go back to a country that had passed
:28:28. > :28:31.a sentence of death on you? I do not know why she had this kind of
:28:32. > :28:36.verdict. What kind of crime she did, I do not know your case. If you do
:28:37. > :28:40.not know about the case where President Morsi has also been
:28:41. > :28:45.sentenced to death, let us not speak about that. What do you think is a
:28:46. > :28:52.member of Parliament about overall 170 Members of Parliament who were
:28:53. > :28:55.elected in the previous first critically elected Parliament after
:28:56. > :29:01.the revolution, what do you say about 170 of them now in jail? At
:29:02. > :29:06.least three of them have died inside because of the lack of medical care.
:29:07. > :29:11.Do you think that is acceptable, as somebody who is representing the
:29:12. > :29:17.so-called elected Parliament? Yes, I guess everybody knows they face a
:29:18. > :29:22.fair trial and we cannot just say something against our judicial
:29:23. > :29:30.system in Egypt. Those people, they face a fair trial and everybody
:29:31. > :29:40.knows that in Egypt. The problem that... We are looking always to
:29:41. > :29:46.govern you to kill you. The people of Egypt refuse this kind of manner
:29:47. > :29:55.and they went out to the streets on June 30 and the Army supported this
:29:56. > :29:58.kind of action. But we are looking to her and other Egyptian citizens
:29:59. > :30:04.and they should be subject to a fair trial and they should get their own
:30:05. > :30:10.rates immediately. This is not something to dispute. She is an
:30:11. > :30:15.absentee, I guess, that is why she got this maximum sentence, I guess.
:30:16. > :30:19.This is my feeling. But I do not know exactly what happened. How
:30:20. > :30:24.about, over 1,000 people have even handed down a death penalty in a
:30:25. > :30:28.matter of hours? Without a single bit of evidence.
:30:29. > :30:35.Many were involved in many kind of crimes. We are lifting the lid on
:30:36. > :30:36.issues to, located to explore in the current context. Ambassador, many
:30:37. > :30:42.thanks. Thank you. More than half
:30:43. > :30:44.of UK graduates are in jobs not deemed to demand a degree,
:30:45. > :30:47.according to research published this summer by the Chartered Institute
:30:48. > :30:49.of Personnel and Development. Yesterday, meanwhile, students took
:30:50. > :30:54.to the streets of London to protest, amongst other things,
:30:55. > :30:55.about the ever-increasing debts they An interesting time, then, for the
:30:56. > :31:02.new-ish Minister for Universities and Science to unveil a green paper
:31:03. > :31:05.designed to increase student numbers But that's what Jo Johnson
:31:06. > :31:09.will do tomorrow. This is how the Robins Report,
:31:10. > :31:18.which called for the great expansion Well, not surprisingly
:31:19. > :31:27.the report that says an educational The report gives a blunt warning
:31:28. > :31:32.that if the government doesn't do the right things immediately,
:31:33. > :31:35.future educational plans will be Tomorrow, Jo Johnson,
:31:36. > :31:41.the universities minister, He proposes to increase student
:31:42. > :31:46.choice by making it easier for new colleges and universities, including
:31:47. > :31:51.profit-making ones, to set up This follows on from
:31:52. > :31:59.the coalition's plans and there's a I greatly welcome
:32:00. > :32:03.the proposal that we create a lot more new universities
:32:04. > :32:06.because into those you can get a shake-up of tradition and try out
:32:07. > :32:09.new ideas which is the only way we The so-called alternative sector is
:32:10. > :32:15.already quite big Including maintenance grants, around
:32:16. > :32:22.53,000 people got loans for courses at alternative providers in 2013,
:32:23. > :32:28.up from 6,500 students in 2010. Some
:32:29. > :32:31.of these colleges are rather grand. Keep an eye out though,
:32:32. > :32:34.other colleges have offered poor courses and may even have been used
:32:35. > :32:39.for loan fraud. This green paper isn't all
:32:40. > :32:41.a continuation of coalition policy. Before 2015 it had been assumed
:32:42. > :32:44.students acting on their own as consumers would drive up
:32:45. > :32:45.teaching quality. The Office for Fair Access which
:32:46. > :32:55.monitors admissions and the Funding Council for England, which deals
:32:56. > :32:59.with the cash, they will be replaced It will do the work
:33:00. > :33:05.of its predecessors but combine it with a focus of students' needs
:33:06. > :33:08.and teaching quality. The intention is that this
:33:09. > :33:10.regulator, alongside student demands Universities that the Office for
:33:11. > :33:16.Students considers to offer good teaching, will be allowed to raise
:33:17. > :33:20.their fees in line with inflation. This isn't quite the Robins report,
:33:21. > :33:25.but it's still a very significant A little earlier, I spoke to Jo
:33:26. > :33:33.Johnson, the Universities Minister. I asked him why we needed all
:33:34. > :33:40.these new private universities. Well, we have
:33:41. > :33:42.a great higher education sector in this country and we want there to
:33:43. > :33:46.be more competition so there is Consumers benefit in any market
:33:47. > :33:51.from competition because it puts providers under pressure to continue
:33:52. > :33:53.to lift the quality Universities are no different
:33:54. > :33:58.in that respect. We want to make it easier for new
:33:59. > :34:01.entrants to come into the higher education market and offer wider
:34:02. > :34:05.choice of provision so more students There were reports that people
:34:06. > :34:15.educated to degree level, graduates, were not finding work that was
:34:16. > :34:17.traditionally graduate-level So you could be perhaps creating
:34:18. > :34:23.more candidates with qualifications while the jobs that demand
:34:24. > :34:26.the qualifications are stagnant? There is a need from employers
:34:27. > :34:31.and our economy to have more These are the jobs which are
:34:32. > :34:37.powering growth in our economy. We need skilled employees
:34:38. > :34:41.to power our growth. But, there are too many cases,
:34:42. > :34:45.unfortunately, where employers are finding
:34:46. > :34:48.graduates coming out of universities that don't have the skills they need
:34:49. > :34:52.and there is a skills shortage That's precisely why we are today
:34:53. > :34:56.bringing forward these proposals to reform higher education,
:34:57. > :34:59.so it delivers more value So that it drives up the quality
:35:00. > :35:04.of teaching, so that students benefit and
:35:05. > :35:07.employers get the graduate with the So how will the new proposals
:35:08. > :35:12.prevent a repetition of, for example, the London School of
:35:13. > :35:16.Science and Technology, which the Guardian investigated last year with
:35:17. > :35:19.some undercover filming which found some students saying, if you want to
:35:20. > :35:22.take the student loan money and not come in, they are getting
:35:23. > :35:26.paid so they don't give a... Well I can't repeat the word
:35:27. > :35:29.the student used, we will say "hoot" for the purposes of this exchange,
:35:30. > :35:32.how can we be sure we won't see We have a quality assurance
:35:33. > :35:38.regime which is robust and catches Attendance is a criteria
:35:39. > :35:45.and is closely scrutinised by the Quality Assurance Agency and that
:35:46. > :35:50.is then taken into account by the Home Office when looking
:35:51. > :35:52.whether to renew, or not, a university's license to bring
:35:53. > :35:58.in international students. 20% of students registered in these
:35:59. > :36:01.places are not even turning up. 50% of some EU students aren't even
:36:02. > :36:04.eligible for the degree they're signed up to
:36:05. > :36:07.get at the end of the course. And that's the kind of abuse the
:36:08. > :36:10.Home Secretary and the Department of Business have been driving out
:36:11. > :36:14.in the system so we have a higher education sector that is genuinely
:36:15. > :36:16.offering great education to people Would you send your children
:36:17. > :36:26.to one of these colleges? Where there is high quality
:36:27. > :36:30.education, we should be encouraging people to go to university,
:36:31. > :36:33.it is a life-changing experience I am not sure
:36:34. > :36:39.whether that is a yes or no? I'd love
:36:40. > :36:41.my children to go to university, but These institutions are possibly
:36:42. > :36:46.funded by private equity? There are lots of routes in life,
:36:47. > :36:49.university is one route. You can choose apprenticeships,
:36:50. > :36:53.you can choose many paths, University is one of a number
:36:54. > :36:57.of possible routes. Where there is high quality
:36:58. > :37:00.education, university can be completely life changing and on
:37:01. > :37:03.average, people who go to university see lifetime earnings ?100,000
:37:04. > :37:07.greater than those who don't. The Home Secretary has told some
:37:08. > :37:12.perhaps 240,000 non-EU students who perhaps would have
:37:13. > :37:16.the qualifications you describe as desirable to industry, have to
:37:17. > :37:19.go home as soon as they graduate. It doesn't seem to fit
:37:20. > :37:22.in with your vision? We have a system
:37:23. > :37:25.of higher education that is open. We have no limit on the number
:37:26. > :37:28.of international students that can There is one
:37:29. > :37:35.international student... But they get sent home at the end,
:37:36. > :37:38.according to Theresa May's plans. International students have
:37:39. > :37:41.the right to stay here and work in this country, provided they have
:37:42. > :37:43.a graduate job to work in. Do they have to go home
:37:44. > :37:46.and apply for the job? No, they have four months in
:37:47. > :37:49.which to find a graduate job, which Most undergraduates are using
:37:50. > :37:54.their time at university to think about the kinds of things they want
:37:55. > :37:57.to do afterwards. They then have a further four months
:37:58. > :38:00.after graduation in I mean, I understand your vision,
:38:01. > :38:09.I just wonder how it becomes more And the Prime Minister, of course,
:38:10. > :38:13.likes to talk a lot We're giving potentially
:38:14. > :38:17.performance-enhancing education to international rivals, who will then
:38:18. > :38:21.go home and compete against us. Well, we welcome international
:38:22. > :38:24.students and I'm pleased that They are up 4% this year
:38:25. > :38:29.on last year. China is sending more students
:38:30. > :38:31.to Britain than ever before. There are some countries
:38:32. > :38:35.which are seeing declines. I think we have a work regime
:38:36. > :38:43.which is actually competitive and it enables students who are
:38:44. > :38:47.capable of finding graduate work within four months to stay in this
:38:48. > :38:50.country and continue their studies. Yours is a government dedicated to
:38:51. > :38:53.the reduction of debt and yet we are putting stuff on the
:38:54. > :38:56.balance sheet with student loans that could, by some accounts, see
:38:57. > :39:00.a huge increase in the total owed. Can you rule out a toughening up
:39:01. > :39:04.of repayment plans for the students Well, we are personally consulting
:39:05. > :39:12.on changes to the student loan repayment scheme
:39:13. > :39:14.and consultation is ongoing. It's important to remember the
:39:15. > :39:19.context in which we live right now. We are addressing
:39:20. > :39:22.our fiscal situation. We have a commitment to balance
:39:23. > :39:28.our books by 2019/2020, and ensuring that our financial
:39:29. > :39:30.support to our universities is on a sustainable footing, which is
:39:31. > :39:33.an important part of that business of getting our public finances onto
:39:34. > :39:39.a sustainable footing. So you're not pledging not
:39:40. > :39:42.to freeze the threshold? As I said, we are consulting
:39:43. > :39:47.on that mechanism. You can understand why some students
:39:48. > :39:50.who have signed up for a financial loan under terms and conditions that
:39:51. > :39:54.were established might feel a little aggrieved that the terms and
:39:55. > :39:57.conditions then subsequently shift. We're waiting for the results
:39:58. > :40:00.of your consultation. We are consulting
:40:01. > :40:02.on that change right now. We will take the responses
:40:03. > :40:05.into the consultation, of course, But you've got to remember
:40:06. > :40:09.the context, which is that we need to balance our
:40:10. > :40:12.books by 2019/2020, and ensuring that our universities are on
:40:13. > :40:15.a sustainable footing and properly The Coalition Government, of course,
:40:16. > :40:19.trebled tuition fees. What we are committing to is to say
:40:20. > :40:29.that where universities are offering high-quality teaching, they will
:40:30. > :40:33.in due course, in 2017/2018, be able to increase their fees only in line
:40:34. > :40:39.with inflation, and inflation is But that is out commitment
:40:40. > :40:45.so that our good universities that are offering high-quality teaching
:40:46. > :40:47.don't see their revenues eroded Over the course of this Parliament
:40:48. > :40:53.then, you can, as the Minister responsible, rule out any increase
:40:54. > :40:57.in tuition fees, a higher threshold? What we are doing is proposing to
:40:58. > :41:03.allow an increase in line only with inflation,
:41:04. > :41:08.which is presently well under 1%. What we are proposing today is to
:41:09. > :41:15.only allow increases in line with