:00:00. > :00:00.A seven-hour-long police raid on a Paris suburb leaves two jihadis
:00:00. > :00:14.dead - a female suicide blows herself up as officers move in.
:00:15. > :00:18.Was this the moment a second terrorist attack
:00:19. > :00:21.France's security forces believe the business district was
:00:22. > :00:25.Residents in the neighbourhood are told to stay indoors.
:00:26. > :00:32.We'll be live in Paris and later we'll be asking if religion is
:00:33. > :00:37.Also tonight, this senior Conservative activist is
:00:38. > :00:40.banned from the party for life amid bullying and harassment claims.
:00:41. > :00:49.A Tory MP tells us the party failed to act.
:00:50. > :00:59.It was unfortunately swept under the carpet. We did not want to end up
:01:00. > :01:01.having the general election last, I would imagine.
:01:02. > :01:03.Is this the right man to lead Labour's Defence Review?
:01:04. > :01:05.The party appears divided from the very top.
:01:06. > :01:07.We invite Ken Livingstone to make his case.
:01:08. > :01:10.And in an exclusive interview, the chief executive of the Premier
:01:11. > :01:16.League tells us football is ready for its gay superstars to come out.
:01:17. > :01:24.I actually think the environment would be suitable for them to come
:01:25. > :01:27.out, if that is the right phrase. I think it would be welcomed and I
:01:28. > :01:33.think there would be a tolerance to it and the time would be right.
:01:34. > :01:38.Dramatic events once again in Paris this morning, have confirmed fears
:01:39. > :01:41.that intended attacks on the city may not yet be over.
:01:42. > :01:44.Before dawn, security forces launched a series of raids
:01:45. > :01:48.and arrests in the suburb of Saint Denis in search of the mastermind
:01:49. > :02:14.The police operation began in Saint Denis. Over the next few hours,
:02:15. > :02:20.explosions and sounds of gunfire were reported. By 8am reports were
:02:21. > :02:23.coming through that two suspected jihadists were killed, including a
:02:24. > :02:29.woman who detonated an explosives vest. At 11:26am police stated the
:02:30. > :02:32.assaults were over with seven arrested.
:02:33. > :02:34.Police now believe they may have foiled an imminent attack on
:02:35. > :02:36.La Defence, the business district of Paris.
:02:37. > :02:40.Tonight, police have admitted that one of the key attackers, Saleh
:02:41. > :02:43.Abdelslam, is still on the run, and the manhunt for him continues.
:02:44. > :02:45.Police confirmed tonight that the ringleader, Abdelhamid Abaaoud,
:02:46. > :02:49.But could he be one of those killed at the scene?
:02:50. > :02:58.Mark Urban is there for us in Central Paris tonight.
:02:59. > :03:06.Emily, a day on which an Islamic State female suicide bomber
:03:07. > :03:10.detonated device on the streets of a European city would, one imagines,
:03:11. > :03:16.have created huge headlines in itself a few weeks ago. Today, given
:03:17. > :03:23.the sort of tragic events that have been going on here, it is just a
:03:24. > :03:26.detail in this unfolding story. Two days ago the French security
:03:27. > :03:30.services received intelligence that this flat in Saint Denis was a
:03:31. > :03:33.possible safe house for this man, Abdelhamid Abaaoud. That is when
:03:34. > :03:36.they put the Abdelhamid Abaaoud. That is when
:03:37. > :03:44.surveillance, clearly guessing he would be a trophy. But he was not
:03:45. > :03:49.arrested. And although one newspaper has reported an American belief he
:03:50. > :03:52.was killed, there is no corroborative evidence. Instead,
:03:53. > :03:53.was killed, there is no police tried to get their prize.
:03:54. > :03:58.They put their operation police tried to get their prize.
:03:59. > :04:03.And they would have been planning it around this time last night.
:04:04. > :04:09.Intelligence led police to Saint Denis before dawn in the hope of
:04:10. > :04:16.catching Abdelhamid Abaaoud, pinpointed as the architect of
:04:17. > :04:25.Friday's terror attacks. What they found was reinforced steel door and
:04:26. > :04:30.armed people behind it. In the time it took to force their way in, those
:04:31. > :04:39.inside resisted and the police fired 5000 rounds. With all that going on,
:04:40. > :04:50.local residents in this Paris suburb had to be evacuated. Finally, as the
:04:51. > :04:59.siege came to its climax, at least one suicide belt was set off,
:05:00. > :05:01.killing two people inside. There were follow-on arrests, too. Tense
:05:02. > :05:05.moments as the police rounded up were follow-on arrests, too. Tense
:05:06. > :05:10.those faces spectre of giving logistics support to the
:05:11. > :05:16.terrorists. Part of a widening dragnet. At the end of it, officers
:05:17. > :05:25.gathered evidence and tried to make safe unexploded weapons inside. The
:05:26. > :05:29.police, it seems, were chasing the so-called Belgian mastermind of the
:05:30. > :05:35.recent Paris attacks. Even if that is right, that leaves the question
:05:36. > :05:41.about the surviving attackers themselves on answered. What we will
:05:42. > :05:46.see in the coming hours and days are more raids as different elements of
:05:47. > :05:49.the plot are rolled out. In Saint Denis, those hoping this will all
:05:50. > :05:55.end on the same day France finished its national mourning were
:05:56. > :05:56.disappointed. And Muslim locals voiced their frustration with the
:05:57. > :06:02.situation. voiced their frustration with the
:06:03. > :06:06.TRANSLATION: There is a war in Syria.
:06:07. > :06:10.There is a war in Iraq. There is a war in Palestine and Burma. And
:06:11. > :06:14.everywhere Muslims are the prime victims. It is normal. Muslims do
:06:15. > :06:19.not like that. At the end of it all today, far from
:06:20. > :06:23.closure, the suggestion from the Paris prosecutor that the Saint
:06:24. > :06:30.Denis cell or a whole new set of operatives.
:06:31. > :06:33.The investigation open on Friday evening has significantly
:06:34. > :06:37.progressed. Last night's assault is proof of this. A new terror cell was
:06:38. > :06:41.neutralised and everything is leading us to believe, considering
:06:42. > :06:43.their weapons stockpile, they're structured organisation and their
:06:44. > :06:46.their weapons stockpile, they're have been able to carry out other
:06:47. > :06:49.attacks. have been able to carry out other
:06:50. > :06:55.For the French state, the battle will intensify now with an unknown
:06:56. > :06:59.number of jihadists still at large at the same time as it tries to
:07:00. > :07:05.account for everyone involved in Friday's atrocities.
:07:06. > :07:12.They will undoubtedly be all tracked down. Those which will be caught in
:07:13. > :07:16.the European space will naturally be judged and I would assume severely
:07:17. > :07:24.condemned. Those who would be found in theatres of war will suffer the
:07:25. > :07:30.laws of war. That will mean their physical elimination. There will be
:07:31. > :07:34.no rest onto that has happened. There are no terrorist court cases
:07:35. > :07:37.in the French approach. Tonight, a Christmas market reopened
:07:38. > :07:47.in Paris after three days of national mourning. People came not
:07:48. > :07:50.in the numbers traders hoped. This man has taken a stall for the past
:07:51. > :07:55.five years and thinks they are still afraid.
:07:56. > :08:01.We are a sad, very sad. And it is very quiet for the moment. It is
:08:02. > :08:09.reopening today after five days. We do not know. We hope.
:08:10. > :08:14.But we are not sure. Many people here have been hoping that today
:08:15. > :08:19.would be a chance to turn the page and move back towards something like
:08:20. > :08:23.business as usual. But this morning's events have treat --
:08:24. > :08:28.cheated them of that hope and shown that this whole ugly drama is not
:08:29. > :08:34.yet over. France then is still in shock. Its government must be
:08:35. > :08:37.hoping, and soon, for some more tangible signs of success in the war
:08:38. > :08:41.it has that shared. Mark,
:08:42. > :08:43.what more did we learn today about how close the French authorities are
:08:44. > :08:54.to wrapping up the investigation? At a stage like this in an
:08:55. > :08:58.investigation like this, it is a wilderness of mirrors. They tell the
:08:59. > :09:05.wider world certain things, they do not tell them others. Some elements
:09:06. > :09:08.are added by force. A man, ninth man, we don't know of some of those
:09:09. > :09:14.things come from an inquiry, sometimes they are given out
:09:15. > :09:19.deliberately to create a sense of confusion among conspirators. We
:09:20. > :09:23.learnt a few important things today. The prosecutor said that two of the
:09:24. > :09:29.suicide bombers from Friday night are still unidentified. When they
:09:30. > :09:33.are identified, that could take the investigation in all sorts of new
:09:34. > :09:37.directions. We know also that some intelligence that has been talked
:09:38. > :09:42.about from, for example, the Iraqi government, talked of up to 25
:09:43. > :09:50.Islamic State group people coming into France to do this. The level of
:09:51. > :09:52.raids we have seen in the last few days would suggest to me that
:09:53. > :09:57.certainly they are looking for more than the narrow group who might have
:09:58. > :10:01.been directly involved in Friday's events. It is still a big ongoing
:10:02. > :10:07.manhunt and it is still developing new directions.
:10:08. > :10:14.Mark Burgan. We will return to the bigger question behind the roots of
:10:15. > :10:16.these attacks with Professor Tariq Ramadan and Tom Holland later.
:10:17. > :10:19.During the 2015 election, Road Trip was the Tories' not
:10:20. > :10:21.so secret weapon, a dynamic organisation which bussed
:10:22. > :10:24.young activists round the country to campaign in marginal seats - and
:10:25. > :10:29.But when a young activist took his own life in September,
:10:30. > :10:32.the organisation - and its founder Mark Clarke - found
:10:33. > :10:38.Allegations of bullying, harassment and even blackmail surfaced.
:10:39. > :10:42.Now, a Newsnight investigation has raised troubling questions
:10:43. > :10:46.about whether the party failed to act on numerous warnings about
:10:47. > :10:50.Yesterday, in response to Newsnight's request for comment,
:10:51. > :11:08.This is a story of bullying, blackmail and sexual harassment. Of
:11:09. > :11:11.a senior Conservative Party organiser who stands accused of
:11:12. > :11:17.intimidating and exploiting young activists as he was lauded by party
:11:18. > :11:19.bosses. And it is a story of how time and time again complaints were
:11:20. > :11:26.ignored by Conservative Central office. It was unfortunately swept
:11:27. > :11:31.under the carpet because we did not want to have the general election
:11:32. > :11:39.result lost. Road Trip was a campaigning organisation established
:11:40. > :11:43.to bus young Conservatives around the country. The idea was to get
:11:44. > :11:52.young people out to marginal seats to help solve the Conservative
:11:53. > :11:56.dream. It was the brainchild of this man. Mark Clarke, a former
:11:57. > :12:01.Conservative parliamentary candidate. After the Conservative
:12:02. > :12:06.election win in 2015, he was stated by the chairman of the party and the
:12:07. > :12:10.Prime Minister for his running of the organisation. But behind the
:12:11. > :12:13.scenes of celebration at Conservative HQ, there was a
:12:14. > :12:19.problem. Over a five-year period complaint after complaint about Mark
:12:20. > :12:23.Clarke had been fed into Central office. Nothing appears to have been
:12:24. > :12:27.done about them. The student vote is really
:12:28. > :12:31.important. Then in September, this young Conservative activists --
:12:32. > :12:37.activist tragically took his own life.
:12:38. > :12:41.Elliott was a bright and imaginative ladder. People loved him. He raised
:12:42. > :12:48.the humour levels, he would lift the gloom in the room and he had friends
:12:49. > :12:55.in all quarters. We were visited by the police on the late evening of
:12:56. > :13:00.the 15th of September to tell us they had found the body of a young
:13:01. > :13:07.man. They describe the contents he had in his bag. His Winston
:13:08. > :13:13.Churchill fob watch, his Union Jack wallet. It broke us.
:13:14. > :13:18.Elliot Johnson had made a formal complaint about Mark Clarke to CC HQ
:13:19. > :13:23.a month before he decided to take his own life. He told the party that
:13:24. > :13:27.in the pub behind me Mark Clarke had threatened to ruin his career by
:13:28. > :13:34.revealing that he had a police caution, a minor misdemeanour. After
:13:35. > :13:37.Clarke found out about the complaints, he met Elliott in a
:13:38. > :13:42.different pub with an associate, Andre Walker. Eliot secretly
:13:43. > :13:44.recorded the meeting. Walker warned him he was on the wrong side of an
:13:45. > :14:37.internal battle. Elliott spoke of Clarke's bullying
:14:38. > :14:41.in a letter that his parents found after he had died. It was not the
:14:42. > :14:46.first complaint that have been lodged with CC HQ. Road Trip
:14:47. > :14:52.campaigns were often finished by boozy dinners and drinks.
:14:53. > :14:56.Paid for by CC HQ. I went on one of the first Road Trips. It may have
:14:57. > :15:00.been the first. It was by the time we got to Harlow that you could see
:15:01. > :15:09.the darker elements. I started to pick up on anything, that these were
:15:10. > :15:14.considered normal. Mark pointed out he knew I was outspoken. That he
:15:15. > :15:19.knew I was outspoken. That doing. Certain campaign thinks. And he said
:15:20. > :15:24.I should be on board and I could have all of these favours. At that
:15:25. > :15:27.point he tried making a move on me and I backed away. He stroked my arm
:15:28. > :15:34.and tried to put his hand up my skirt. I backed off. I went back
:15:35. > :15:38.into the room, or as I was trying to get back in, he sort of said, if you
:15:39. > :15:43.are not one of us, we can destroy you, basically. We will destroy you.
:15:44. > :15:47.If you speak out against us try to take us, we will ruin you. We will
:15:48. > :15:51.make sure you do not have any kind of career.
:15:52. > :15:56.And that if I didn't stop crossing him, that would be used to damage
:15:57. > :16:02.both of us. The woman who we are calling Natasha
:16:03. > :16:05.said she complained to CCHQ in the summer of 2014. I complained I
:16:06. > :16:09.didn't think the way that Mark and the other Road Trip activists
:16:10. > :16:12.behaved was fitting, considering they were representing the party. I
:16:13. > :16:25.said that I didn't think the way that he had approached me and tried
:16:26. > :16:29.to blackmail, that it was a good idea. I got an e-mail back saying we
:16:30. > :16:34.have received your complaint. And I heard nothing more. Newsnight has
:16:35. > :16:39.spoken to five other activists who say they made complaints to CCHQ
:16:40. > :16:48.before Elliot's death, so why was no action taken? A Conservative Party
:16:49. > :16:52.spokesman told Newsnight, the Party Chairman acted immediately to set up
:16:53. > :17:00.an internal disciplinary inquiry as soon as he received the allegations
:17:01. > :17:04.in August 2015. One of his own MPs, Ben Howlett, who chaired
:17:05. > :17:08.Conservative Future from 2010 to 2013 rejects his party's explanation
:17:09. > :17:13.of events. We have complained about him for a long period of time. It
:17:14. > :17:19.was not just him, but people attributed to him as well. I
:17:20. > :17:23.complained when I was national chairman, I complained to the
:17:24. > :17:29.chairman's office when Grant Shapps took over as the Party Chairman and
:17:30. > :17:34.I have to say the national chairman has been well aware of all of this
:17:35. > :17:39.for a long period of time. He backed me up on this, which I was pleased
:17:40. > :17:47.about. Effectively, somewhere along the lines, all of those complaints
:17:48. > :17:51.about him and others in the Conservative Party had somewhat been
:17:52. > :17:57.distanced and been ignored and it was not investigated at that time,
:17:58. > :18:01.unfortunately. Water off a duck's back, ignore it, move on. It was a
:18:02. > :18:08.succession of different issues. I have to admit it had taken its toll
:18:09. > :18:13.on myself and yes, I might be an MP now, but the bullying that I ended
:18:14. > :18:17.up having to put up with through a successive number of years took its
:18:18. > :18:20.toll on me and I have had my own mental health issues as a result of
:18:21. > :18:26.that. What form did these complaints take? What happened with them? Well,
:18:27. > :18:31.there were a huge range of complaints, I have to say. Whether
:18:32. > :18:35.or not it was from bullying, bullying complaints, I mean that was
:18:36. > :18:42.my own personal circumstance. Or whether or not it was women who were
:18:43. > :18:45.complaining in relation to different advances he was making, and that's
:18:46. > :18:50.for them to make complaints about, and no doubt they have spoken to
:18:51. > :18:55.your programme about it as well. There's a huge number. Mark Clarke
:18:56. > :19:00.was able to influence and even blackmail young activists by abusing
:19:01. > :19:07.a position he had in the party. He described himself as a director in
:19:08. > :19:12.CCHQ, something that CCHQ deny. In one message seen by Newsnight,
:19:13. > :19:15.Clarke used the supposed position in CCHQ to threaten a Conservative
:19:16. > :19:20.Future branch that was not bringing in enough student volunteers to Road
:19:21. > :19:23.Trip. He said, "We could ruin them, ban all Tory speakers, blacklist the
:19:24. > :19:27.leadership for failing to campaign properly in a way that would follow
:19:28. > :19:31.them their entire career and much more personal stuff." In another
:19:32. > :19:35.e-mail he told the volunteer, "You add applied for an internship and
:19:36. > :19:39.were awaiting the outcome of their interview. I have to tell you you
:19:40. > :19:43.will not be offered an internship. Furthermore, I have to put you on
:19:44. > :19:46.notice should you be offered a job with any Conservative MP or another
:19:47. > :19:51.part of the Conservative Party, I will advise them to immediately
:19:52. > :19:55.terminate your employment." Since CCHQ have been made aware of
:19:56. > :20:02.Newsnight's allegations, the party says it has banned Mark Clarke for
:20:03. > :20:04.life. It also says it's withdrawn Road Trip's official accreditation
:20:05. > :20:10.as an official campaign organisation for the party. But how did Mark
:20:11. > :20:15.Clarke get away with it for so long? Within Conservative Future after I
:20:16. > :20:21.left, I would say there was institutionalised bullying within
:20:22. > :20:24.Conservative Future and it was unfortunately swept under the carpet
:20:25. > :20:29.in the big scheme of things because we didn't want to end up having the
:20:30. > :20:32.General Election result lost, I can imagine, and you don't want to talk
:20:33. > :20:40.about those things whilst the General Election is going on. I find
:20:41. > :20:46.it staggering if Ben Howlett MP has come out and damned Shapps for not
:20:47. > :20:51.having acted against complaints that have been made on numerous occasions
:20:52. > :20:58.by young adults. If these turn out to be true, then Lord Feldman and
:20:59. > :21:02.Shapps should resign immediately. Clarke told Newsnight he strongly
:21:03. > :21:06.refuted all allegations of bullying, harassment, assault or attempted
:21:07. > :21:10.blackmail. He said, "I believe that these false allegations and this
:21:11. > :21:13.media firestorm are related to the events surrounding Elliot's sad
:21:14. > :21:15.death. As such, I will be co-operating with the Coroner and
:21:16. > :21:19.providing him with the fullest information. This is the proper
:21:20. > :21:23.process. After the inquest, I will look to take legal action for
:21:24. > :21:28.defamation in respect of these allegations." The Conservative Party
:21:29. > :21:33.is still to publish its own internal inquiry into Clarke and there are
:21:34. > :21:36.ongoing coroner and police inquiries into Elliot Johnson's suicide.
:21:37. > :21:37.What's clear, is that this is a scandal that isn't going anywhere
:21:38. > :21:40.any time soon. Now as we were going on air tonight,
:21:41. > :21:42.we learned that in response to our report, the Tory Party has
:21:43. > :21:46.suspended the National Executive of Conservative Future and taken its
:21:47. > :21:51.youth wing under direct control. A spokesman told us,
:21:52. > :21:52."We have been checking and rechecking, but have not been able
:21:53. > :21:57.to find any records of complaints that were made but not dealt with -
:21:58. > :21:59.but we are determined to get to The former Mayor of London, Ken
:22:00. > :22:07.Livingstone, has taken to Twitter to apologise unreservedly for saying
:22:08. > :22:10.a shadow defence minister suffering from depression should get
:22:11. > :22:16."psychiatric help and pop off and see a GP", after he had criticized
:22:17. > :22:18.his appointment to Kevan Jones,
:22:19. > :22:22.who has spoken publicly about his mental health issues in the past,
:22:23. > :22:24.said Mr Livingstone had caused offence to thousands of mental
:22:25. > :22:27.health sufferers with his words. The row between the two Labour
:22:28. > :22:30.figures started after Mr Jones questioned why the former mayor,
:22:31. > :22:33.who's opposed to Trident, was given an influential role alongside Maria
:22:34. > :22:47.Eagle, who is heading up the review. Does it feel like this is the end
:22:48. > :22:51.now? I don't think so. You have Ken Livingstone to your right, you can
:22:52. > :22:56.ask him in a second. The pair were on Channel 4 News and Ken
:22:57. > :23:04.Livingstone said to Kevan Jones, "You started it. Where does this
:23:05. > :23:08.leave the broader question of the Defence Review? Kevan Jones told
:23:09. > :23:12.Channel 4 News he wasn't clear what Ken Livingstone would be playing and
:23:13. > :23:16.how the two will work together. This isn't just a debate about
:23:17. > :23:19.ill-advised comments made about mental health. This is going to the
:23:20. > :23:23.core of Labour's position on matters of War and Peace and there's two
:23:24. > :23:26.divisions it is throwing up. The first is on Trident. You have Jeremy
:23:27. > :23:30.Corbyn and Ken Livingstone, again you will talk about it in a second,
:23:31. > :23:35.who have one position on Trident. It is opposed by the people who were in
:23:36. > :23:40.Labour's defence team, including Kevan Jones, and the party. At the
:23:41. > :23:46.moment, we have the co-chairs of Labour's Defence Review apparently
:23:47. > :23:50.with irreconcilable views. Secondly, you have another division on Syria.
:23:51. > :23:54.Last night on this programme, the Labour MP Emma Reynolds said she
:23:55. > :24:00.would like a free vote. Ken Livingstone said she wouldn't be
:24:01. > :24:03.getting a free vote. She pro-war, as he called her, if she wanted to vote
:24:04. > :24:08.in that way, she would be able to but she would have to defy the Party
:24:09. > :24:12.Leadership. There is an inconsistency for a lot of people in
:24:13. > :24:15.the Labour Party, for Corbyn's allies, they are allowed to be
:24:16. > :24:21.independent, to have their own views, and indeed possibly have
:24:22. > :24:25.those views imposed on the rest of the party on something like Trident.
:24:26. > :24:30.For people like Emma Reynolds, she's told she has to get in line. The
:24:31. > :24:36.problem is this: Corbyn said it has to be a gentle new kind of politics
:24:37. > :24:38.and it has to be consensual. Events in the last 24 hours undermine that.
:24:39. > :24:49.It doesn't sound very consensual at the moment. Kevan Jones has said you
:24:50. > :24:52.should apologise to all sufferers of mental health who you offended.
:24:53. > :25:01.Would you like to do that? I'm sorry. Let's be quite clear... Does
:25:02. > :25:04.it mean you are genuinely sorry? I'm very sorry about that if they were
:25:05. > :25:09.genuinely offended. He started this row. Is that an apology? It is an
:25:10. > :25:13.apology. It is a very odd type of phrase. Are you apologising to Kevan
:25:14. > :25:18.Jones? If anyone is upset, I'm sorry about that. I didn't start this. I
:25:19. > :25:23.get up this morning, I find that a Labour MP is denouncing me in this
:25:24. > :25:26.role saying I don't have any... It is not denouncing, he is questioning
:25:27. > :25:29.whether you are the right person for this job? Why didn't he pick up the
:25:30. > :25:34.phone and ask me? I could have told him. For five years, when I was
:25:35. > :25:40.leader of the GLC, we oversaw civil defence in London. We had to plan
:25:41. > :25:45.for what would happen in a nuclear war, millions of Londoners would
:25:46. > :25:49.have died, I lived with that. After 9/11, we spent four years planning
:25:50. > :25:52.for the terrorist attack we knew was coming. Almost all the time I have
:25:53. > :25:56.held a public office, there's been that threat of violence because of
:25:57. > :26:00.military involvement. Did you pick up the phone to Maria Eagle to tell
:26:01. > :26:05.her you were her co-chair, she learnt from Twitter? It is not my
:26:06. > :26:10.job to do that. The Labour NEC decides this panel. We have always
:26:11. > :26:13.had... Why was it your job to go on Twitter and make the announcement
:26:14. > :26:18.when she didn't know? I didn't go on Twitter. It must have been made for
:26:19. > :26:23.me by the party. I'm a member of the NEC, I wasn't - I had journalists
:26:24. > :26:28.phoning, saying we hear you have been appointed this... You said it
:26:29. > :26:34.at a book launch? I did not do any Twitter about this. It was CND,
:26:35. > :26:40.people came along... Was that an error not to just make contact with
:26:41. > :26:45.the person who will now be the co-chair? I left the NEC when that
:26:46. > :26:49.decision was made to appoint me. I found out about it later on. I
:26:50. > :26:54.assumed Maria Eagle had been told. The fact is, Maria Eagle and I go
:26:55. > :27:00.back to 1981. She invited me to come and talk to her student Labour Club.
:27:01. > :27:05.She said today, it feels like the Shadow Defence Secretary has got an
:27:06. > :27:09.older man into mark her homework. That is excruciating? She is being
:27:10. > :27:13.very silly. The reality is, if you are going to have a policy review,
:27:14. > :27:16.you need someone who represents that commitment to Trident, someone who
:27:17. > :27:20.has always been dubious about that. We have now got to look at the
:27:21. > :27:24.facts. We have a very tight budget situation. The British Army now is
:27:25. > :27:28.smaller than at any time since before World War One. A lot of
:27:29. > :27:32.people, including myself... You are on opposing sides, she supports
:27:33. > :27:36.renewal of Trident, you don't. Could you be persuaded on that? Could you
:27:37. > :27:40.see yourself supporting Trident? I want to see facts that suggest to me
:27:41. > :27:43.that this is the best way of spending our military expenditure.
:27:44. > :27:47.You could be convinced on that? You might come out of it saying Trident
:27:48. > :27:52.is a good idea? If you are going into a policy review, you leave your
:27:53. > :27:56.previous preconceptions behind, your views behind, we are there to look
:27:57. > :28:00.at the facts. We need to look at is this the best use of ?20 billion? Or
:28:01. > :28:05.would it be better building up our Armed Forces? A lot of people will
:28:06. > :28:12.say you are Jeremy Corbyn's enforcer, you are like having an
:28:13. > :28:16.informant on the inside? No, my time as leader of the GLC, we always were
:28:17. > :28:19.living with terrorist attacks. I want to know what's the best way of
:28:20. > :28:22.protecting the British people. I understand that. We are talking
:28:23. > :28:26.about the system you take to get to it. Have you spoken to Maria Eagle
:28:27. > :28:32.today? No. I spent - I have answered the phone 70 times. You haven't
:28:33. > :28:35.spoken to your co-chair on this? We haven't organised any meetings or
:28:36. > :28:40.anything. All I have had all day is a wave of media interviews and
:28:41. > :28:44.endless phone calls, about 70 so far. We will have a chat about it.
:28:45. > :28:48.The thing is, we fight a very tight budget. We have to work out what is
:28:49. > :28:52.the best way of protecting Britain. Is it nuclear weapons? You haven't
:28:53. > :28:56.spoken to Maria Eagle yet, Emma Reynolds told us there should be a
:28:57. > :29:01.free vote on Syria. Do you agree with her? Absolutely not. If you are
:29:02. > :29:06.talking about military action, the Labour Party has to have a view for
:29:07. > :29:09.or against it. Saying a free vote, saying the Labour Party doesn't have
:29:10. > :29:14.positions. I support her right, if she wants to vote against the whip,
:29:15. > :29:17.because I often did. The trouble is, as you can surely appreciate, this
:29:18. > :29:20.points to a wider problem, when you are rowing with your own Defence
:29:21. > :29:24.Minister, when you are criticising other ministers, when you haven't
:29:25. > :29:28.told the Shadow Defence Secretary she was aware of your role. It's
:29:29. > :29:32.chaos in the Labour Party. At this time, when people are desperate for
:29:33. > :29:35.leadership, they are desperate for cohesion, they know what they get
:29:36. > :29:39.from David Cameron. When they come to Labour they get a wheel of
:29:40. > :29:46.fortune, any time they spin it, something different comes up.
:29:47. > :29:52.I did not start this row. I am talking about the perception.
:29:53. > :30:01.Presumably the public want leadership? We were told when
:30:02. > :30:02.Blair took the decision to invade Iraq, this makes us a target for
:30:03. > :30:07.terrorism. What we have to do is Iraq, this makes us a target for
:30:08. > :30:10.decide what the biggest threat to Britain is. Is it a nuclear strike
:30:11. > :30:16.or another Britain is. Is it a nuclear strike
:30:17. > :30:18.attacks. I want a military system that protects the British people
:30:19. > :30:20.from being murdered by terrorists. Thank you for
:30:21. > :30:32.The head of the Football Association, Richard Scudamore,
:30:33. > :30:38.He said he thought the time was right for them to go public,
:30:39. > :30:42.He was speaking as a new study emerged showing the
:30:43. > :30:47.impact made by the Premier League to the UK economy - a business that
:30:48. > :30:58.He sat down to discuss the economics of football with Evan Davis.
:30:59. > :31:05.I think it is a number of things. First of all it is the football. The
:31:06. > :31:10.way the football is played seems to be very attractive to a lot of
:31:11. > :31:14.people around the world. This season any team can beat any other team.
:31:15. > :31:19.Most of the world likes the compelling nature of our football.
:31:20. > :31:23.You are saying football is better in the Premier League than in the
:31:24. > :31:29.German league? I did not say that. It is more compelling. It is a
:31:30. > :31:33.particular brand of football. The pace, the intensity and the
:31:34. > :31:37.integrity of it, the way the games go to the last minute, nothing is
:31:38. > :31:41.ever decided until the end. That is why around the world, in my view,
:31:42. > :31:46.people are tuning in to watch our football more than anybody else. You
:31:47. > :31:50.say around the world people are tuning in. The international
:31:51. > :31:58.revenues are considerable. Is there anything you can do to serve Ian is
:31:59. > :32:03.national audiences better? Those plans are well shelved. There is no
:32:04. > :32:08.plan to take it abroad, to follow say the NFL? There is no plan. It
:32:09. > :32:15.would be disingenuous to say there is still a will. We think it is a
:32:16. > :32:20.good idea, the clubs think it is a good idea. But you cannot do it
:32:21. > :32:23.until you overcome the integrity of competition point. For Crystal
:32:24. > :32:29.Palace to be drawn at home to Manchester United, to suddenly
:32:30. > :32:32.decide that game will be played in Hong Kong, even though it is a home
:32:33. > :32:39.game for Crystal Palace, it will not look like it, I am sure, by the time
:32:40. > :32:46.you end up in Hong Kong. Do you see the Premier League as a business? Do
:32:47. > :32:51.you see it as having a wider responsibility to English and Welsh
:32:52. > :32:56.society, our British society? You cannot see it as a business first.
:32:57. > :32:59.It is a sporting competition. Unless the sporting covetousness compelling
:33:00. > :33:06.we have nothing. That competition has this power to engage people to
:33:07. > :33:11.do more things. To enhance people's lives, to engage people, to enthuse
:33:12. > :33:15.people, to get people to stick to football and do things through
:33:16. > :33:20.football, because of football, they would not otherwise do. There is a
:33:21. > :33:24.business element. That has to be paid for, putting on the show and
:33:25. > :33:31.doing the good stuff we do in the communities. That is the commercial
:33:32. > :33:35.side. It is not just the third limb of what we are. There are a number
:33:36. > :33:40.of areas in which the Premier League is criticised for being rather
:33:41. > :33:43.ungenerous in the dispersion of its revenues, which are very
:33:44. > :33:50.considerable. I would be interested in your views. Is it right that
:33:51. > :33:55.English Premier League clubs should just charge the revenue maximising
:33:56. > :34:00.price for a ticket, or should they feel there is a responsibility to
:34:01. > :34:04.help fans get to see the live game? They do not charge the revenue
:34:05. > :34:10.maximising price for a ticket. That would be higher on a supply and
:34:11. > :34:14.demand. On average they are paying ?32 50 for tickets. We do not get
:34:15. > :34:21.involved. The clubs know that the number one strategic priority is to
:34:22. > :34:26.keep those grounds full. You want people to be able to afford the
:34:27. > :34:32.occasional trip to watch their team. It may be that a lot of people would
:34:33. > :34:36.love to go but are being priced out. They can afford to go and see the
:34:37. > :34:42.occasional game, quite frankly. People can afford it. The unit price
:34:43. > :34:48.of those games is not always at the highest price. Grassroots football
:34:49. > :34:52.is the other thing. The Premier League was given some dispensation
:34:53. > :34:54.from certain competition requirements that might ordinarily
:34:55. > :35:00.have applied to the sale of television rights. The quid pro quo
:35:01. > :35:05.was 5% of the revenues are going to grassroots football. The revenues
:35:06. > :35:11.have increased enormously. Are you still going to be giving 5% of your
:35:12. > :35:22.overall revenues? What you might define as grassroots is the
:35:23. > :35:27.complication. Lee Division one is part of your 5%. Anything we give
:35:28. > :35:32.way to football outsider Premier League is money given away. We are
:35:33. > :35:39.meeting our commitment. We give away currently about 15% of our top line
:35:40. > :35:45.revenue. 15%. How much do you give away for football other than teams
:35:46. > :35:50.that might have been in the Premier League? It would be on an annual
:35:51. > :35:58.basis somewhere in the region of about ?150 million. But the
:35:59. > :36:06.revenues, what are we talking about? 2 billion per year. You say it is
:36:07. > :36:14.more than 5%. Yes. Weigh more. How much goes to real grassroots? About
:36:15. > :36:18.55 to 60 million. If you just work on that being the amount we give
:36:19. > :36:22.away to your definition of grassroots, I'd argue, I would argue
:36:23. > :36:27.that within grassroots you would have to include in my view to lower
:36:28. > :36:30.league clubs are doing in their communities, for example, what
:36:31. > :36:34.football league clubs are doing. Football in the community as a
:36:35. > :36:40.grassroots activity. It is getting people taking part. I would argue
:36:41. > :36:43.that youth development, those thousands and thousands of young
:36:44. > :36:50.children engaged in these youth development programmes, is really a
:36:51. > :36:55.grassroots community based venture. Let's take a step back. There is no
:36:56. > :37:01.other business that you sit opposite that give away 15% of their
:37:02. > :37:06.turnover. You are clearly accepting it is not a pure business. It has
:37:07. > :37:13.obligations to society. It absolutely does, yes. Responsibility
:37:14. > :37:16.beyond the Premier League, responsibilities to the English
:37:17. > :37:23.team. Greg Dyke would like 12 members of each squad to be
:37:24. > :37:30.home-grown players. Good idea? No. Whilst he thinks it is a good idea
:37:31. > :37:33.we do not think quotas work. Effectively we absolutely believe if
:37:34. > :37:37.you want to be good enough you have to play against the world's best. We
:37:38. > :37:41.do invest hugely in youth development. Then you have to put
:37:42. > :37:46.these players into the real environment against the world's
:37:47. > :37:50.best. It is a difference of view as to how you improve the fortunes of
:37:51. > :37:56.the England team. Greg Dyke thinks quotas are a good idea. Myself,
:37:57. > :37:59.along with pretty much all of 20 club managers, who know a little bit
:38:00. > :38:03.about this, absolutely think that the best ways to make sure that when
:38:04. > :38:08.they come through they are good enough to compete against the best
:38:09. > :38:14.in world. You do not like quotas. You say any player can play in a
:38:15. > :38:21.team. What about sexuality? Rather any gameplayers? I'm absolutely sure
:38:22. > :38:26.there are, yes. Why don't they feel able to be public? I do not know. I
:38:27. > :38:30.cannot speak for them and I don't know who they are. I think the
:38:31. > :38:33.environment would be entirely suitable for them to come out if
:38:34. > :38:39.that is the right phrase, and I think it would be welcomed and I
:38:40. > :38:44.think there would be a tolerance. I think the time would be right to do
:38:45. > :38:49.that. Do you think the Premier League has peaked in this
:38:50. > :38:55.broadcasting round? It is not going to carry on growing. That is like
:38:56. > :38:59.asking if its best days are behind it! Of course it has not peaked. I
:39:00. > :39:05.can see this go on for some good time yet.
:39:06. > :39:06.Peter Scooter more. -- Peter Scudamore.
:39:07. > :39:08.What do we know about the Paris attackers?
:39:09. > :39:12.Reports about a couple of the brothers suggest they were low life
:39:13. > :39:15.criminals who drank, took drugs, and weren't remotely religious,
:39:16. > :39:20.There's more to come out of course, and perhaps sketches of their
:39:21. > :39:26.But inevitably, an attack of this kind - that the perpetrators
:39:27. > :39:29.call jihad - raises questions about the nature of religion
:39:30. > :39:32.in this war and those who carry out cold blooded murder in its name.
:39:33. > :39:35.We're going to hear two perspectives on the link between Islamic State
:39:36. > :39:39.Tariq Ramadan, one of the world's leading Islamic
:39:40. > :39:59.First to Tarik Ramadan, you must recognise that Isis uses is lamb for
:40:00. > :40:08.the pretext of the terror it perpetrates? That is a solid link.
:40:09. > :40:12.-- Islam. Yes, once again I do not really agree with Muslims saying it
:40:13. > :40:17.has nothing to do with Islam. I think yes. At the very moment
:40:18. > :40:24.somebody is saying this is a slam and this is what we're doing in the
:40:25. > :40:28.name of Koran and quoting verses, we have at least the moral
:40:29. > :40:33.responsibility to respond. By denying, in fact, not only the very
:40:34. > :40:42.essence and the mainstream understanding of Islam, but still we
:40:43. > :40:46.have to come with arguments and to show that the way they are using the
:40:47. > :40:52.verses, the prophetic traditions, it is completely wrong. It is not
:40:53. > :40:57.relying on the right understanding. And we have to challenge the
:40:58. > :41:03.religious understanding by saying, in the name of this lamb, and this
:41:04. > :41:07.is what Muslims have been doing even before September 11 in the United
:41:08. > :41:15.States, by saying, no, that is not acceptable. What we are expecting
:41:16. > :41:22.also from the media is to hear these voices and go beyond this. Not to
:41:23. > :41:28.ask the Muslims day in, day out, do justify, to apologise, to explain
:41:29. > :41:32.what Islam is not. We need to come to the common narrative of what it
:41:33. > :41:37.is for the huge, almost a consensus among the scholars and Muslims
:41:38. > :41:41.around the world, and to come together and say, we are combating
:41:42. > :41:46.violent extremists. What we can now do is our fellow British Muslims to
:41:47. > :41:56.come to a better understanding and stop this confusion.
:41:57. > :42:00.Just explain what you mean? It sounds like the media is asking the
:42:01. > :42:04.wrong questions. If you believe there is a link between what Isis
:42:05. > :42:11.preaches in the name of terror and a slam, what is the right response? --
:42:12. > :42:14.Islam. What I am admitting is that as soon as somebody is speaking and
:42:15. > :42:19.saying they are speaking in the name of Islam, they have to respond, ten
:42:20. > :42:25.years ago in Britain we had exactly the same story and we were asked the
:42:26. > :42:30.same. Let me tell you something. The mainstream Muslim conscience and
:42:31. > :42:35.consciousness and citizenship, and Muslims around the world, our
:42:36. > :42:42.saying, and have been doing so for so long. The fact is after ten years
:42:43. > :42:46.we have always the same questions. Are you British? What is your
:42:47. > :42:52.commitment? Go back to the central question. How do you take religion
:42:53. > :42:56.out of the terror that is being committed? If you do not like that
:42:57. > :43:04.question being asked to Muslims around the world, how do you take
:43:05. > :43:11.question being asked to Muslims by listening to the Muslims saying
:43:12. > :43:17.this has nothing to do. And by not as King Muslims to find solutions.
:43:18. > :43:22.And to come to the reasons of why this is done. In the Middle East
:43:23. > :43:28.now, Tony Blair said there is no relationship between what is
:43:29. > :43:32.happening in the country and foreign policy. Nothing ever could justify
:43:33. > :43:36.killing innocent people in Paris. But we also have to say, what is the
:43:37. > :43:40.foreign policy from France, from Britain, from the European countries
:43:41. > :43:47.when it comes to killing people in Afghanistan? When a school is
:43:48. > :43:52.bombarded it is as if the innocent people have less value than our
:43:53. > :43:59.people. That is not going to help us to solve the problem. Human beings
:44:00. > :44:04.have the same value. You have to listen to this. I will put this to
:44:05. > :44:09.Tom Holland. We have not got very long. He is talking about the lack
:44:10. > :44:15.of equation between recognising the different elements that go into this
:44:16. > :44:19.terror. Do you accept that? I think it is a very Protestant presumption
:44:20. > :44:23.that you can siphon religion off from the flocks and Eddie of general
:44:24. > :44:31.human life. I think that probably for the bombers, religion is the
:44:32. > :44:35.gin, the tonic of all of the other motives that have propelled them to
:44:36. > :44:39.do what they do. I do think the religious aspect of it is very
:44:40. > :44:46.significant. And I think that it is expressive of a crisis in Islam that
:44:47. > :44:54.is of very profound portions. I think that the crisis is bread of an
:44:55. > :44:57.increasing liberalism. An increasing look at the fundamental Scriptures
:44:58. > :45:05.and tenets of Islam and reducing them to their most sanguinary. The
:45:06. > :45:10.crisis for mainstream is lamb is that it obliges Muslims who belong
:45:11. > :45:15.to the mainstream to impose a firewall between the beliefs of Isis
:45:16. > :45:18.and mainstream Islam. As far as I can tell, that is proving, to
:45:19. > :45:24.mainstream Muslims, to be a huge challenge. Do you think that
:45:25. > :45:27.Professor Tarik Ramadan is right when he says that the questions are
:45:28. > :45:32.always asked of mainstream Muslims and we do not ask enough of the
:45:33. > :45:37.other questions? Tony Blair's foreign policy and our intervention.
:45:38. > :45:41.Actually I think we do dwell on that a very great deal. And I think in
:45:42. > :45:45.the way it would be very reassuring to say they are motivated by
:45:46. > :45:49.hostility towards say British foreign policy. If that were the
:45:50. > :45:54.case we could do something about it. But I do not think they are. They
:45:55. > :45:59.have a more apocalyptic strain to their motivation. If they weren't
:46:00. > :46:03.being motivated purely by a desire to respond to Western foreign
:46:04. > :46:15.policy, why, for instance, have they been practising genocidal policies
:46:16. > :46:18.against the Yazidi 's? -- Yazidis. Why do we assume religion is
:46:19. > :46:23.tolerant? This is very much the thought for the day notion, that you
:46:24. > :46:27.have a warm, mushy, essentially Anglican idea that everybody should
:46:28. > :46:34.get along. If you look at the history of religion, it has existed
:46:35. > :46:38.to defy as well as to join. It has inspired violence as well as peace.
:46:39. > :46:44.Tarik Ramadan, can you come back on that? I think it is true that
:46:45. > :46:51.religion can be an instrument for promoting peace. Now we have to come
:46:52. > :46:55.together and understand quite clearly that from Europe we are all
:46:56. > :47:02.condemning what is happening. But what we need now is to get it right.
:47:03. > :47:05.Not to centralise religion and say it is religious. It is also
:47:06. > :47:15.political. It has to do with what we are doing.
:47:16. > :47:18.Thank you very much. Sorry, just breaking up at the end. That is all
:47:19. > :47:22.we have time for. Good night.