:00:16. > :00:19.Confirmed dead - the Belgian ringleader of the Paris attacks died
:00:20. > :00:23.in yesterday's raid alongside Europe's first female suicide
:00:24. > :00:40.We ask, how can Europe best protect itself?
:00:41. > :00:48.They are pretty good at this. If this is what we were not able to
:00:49. > :00:49.stop, I fear that the situation in other European countries may be
:00:50. > :00:52.rather worse. The CIA's former counter-terrorism
:00:53. > :00:54.chief gives us his take. Also tonight,
:00:55. > :01:05.as junior doctors vote to strike, Sit down and talk about it. Do not
:01:06. > :01:07.put patient safety at risk. It is not necessary.
:01:08. > :01:16.I'm here to admit that I am in fact HIV-positive.
:01:17. > :01:19.And as Charlie Sheen comes out of the HIV closet, are public attitudes
:01:20. > :01:28.I was scared and I was angry and I was upset. I thought I was going to
:01:29. > :01:33.take my own life. We know now that the ringleader
:01:34. > :01:37.of the Paris attacks, Abdelhamid Abaaoud,
:01:38. > :01:41.was killed in the city's Saint Denis district yesterday morning, his body
:01:42. > :01:46.riddled with bullets and shrapnel. According to the French authorities,
:01:47. > :01:49.before last Friday's assault, he'd been implicated in four
:01:50. > :01:51.of six foiled attacks But how did he manage to move
:01:52. > :01:56.around Europe, and indeed as is suspected, back
:01:57. > :02:00.and forth from Syria, unimpeded? How were the French unaware he'd
:02:01. > :02:03.entered the country when he was And what does that failure tell us
:02:04. > :02:06.about the scale of the threat we face, and what
:02:07. > :02:24.needs to be done to combat it? Abdelhamid Abaaoud, a wanted man,
:02:25. > :02:30.now confirmed dead. Formal identification came from the human
:02:31. > :02:38.rights of a man accused of inhuman rear -- acts. Forensics providing an
:02:39. > :02:42.answer to one important question. Any relief in Paris tonight has been
:02:43. > :02:45.tempered by the questions that do not have answers. How did he get
:02:46. > :02:50.here and who else may he have brought with him? Troubling issues
:02:51. > :02:55.not just for the French but other European intelligence agencies. This
:02:56. > :02:58.was a man they knew, a man who had terror on his mind, a man who
:02:59. > :03:06.appeared to move effortlessly across borders. Abu Dua is more than just a
:03:07. > :03:09.dot on the radar. He came to the attention of the Brussels
:03:10. > :03:14.authorities as an armed robber. Apparently radicalised in jail, last
:03:15. > :03:19.year he appeared in gruesome IS videos filmed in Syria. Then his
:03:20. > :03:24.associates claimed he had died. It was a lie. By January of this year
:03:25. > :03:31.he was organising a terror cell in Belgium. It was raided by police.
:03:32. > :03:35.Abaaoud escaped justice. He later boasted that in the aftermath a
:03:36. > :03:40.Belgian police officer stopped him but failed to match his face with a
:03:41. > :03:44.wanted photograph. It was assumed he went back to Syria but nobody seems
:03:45. > :03:50.to know. Either way, until yesterday's events in Saint Denis, a
:03:51. > :03:54.man the authorities were desperate to catch had dropped off their
:03:55. > :03:58.radar. And as the clean-up began today, it
:03:59. > :04:01.emerged he did not appear to be hiding. Witnesses claimed they had
:04:02. > :04:05.seen him wandering around the neighbourhood where he eventually
:04:06. > :04:14.died. With him, it is reported, was this woman. It is believed she blew
:04:15. > :04:16.herself up in yesterday's raid. The performance of the security
:04:17. > :04:22.services and intelligence gatherers, it has been very good and
:04:23. > :04:32.very bad. It has been very good in the sense that to my understanding
:04:33. > :04:35.none of the perpetrators have been identified in acts of terrorism in
:04:36. > :04:41.France over the last few years, including the latest events, wore
:04:42. > :04:48.what in the jargon were called clean skins. The bad news is the ability
:04:49. > :04:51.of the security services to follow through their intelligence has not
:04:52. > :04:56.been up to scratch. Officers have shown great courage in
:04:57. > :04:59.the last week. Some experts say they will have two again because European
:05:00. > :05:02.spy agencies are too secretive with each other. They have to learn to
:05:03. > :05:08.share. What is needed is a kind of global
:05:09. > :05:16.European intelligence service that would be able to gather information
:05:17. > :05:20.everywhere and act directly. Inui agency has to be built, otherwise
:05:21. > :05:26.one house to restore the frontiers as before. -- a new agency. You
:05:27. > :05:32.cannot have it both ways. You cannot have Europe without frontiers and
:05:33. > :05:35.have this sort of system based on national security.
:05:36. > :05:39.Over the last couple of days, police in France and Belgium have conducted
:05:40. > :05:46.hundreds of raids against potential terror suspects. In police speak,
:05:47. > :05:51.they call it shaking the tree. Expect the same tactics in Britain
:05:52. > :05:57.soon because the priority now is to come down hard and early. Could
:05:58. > :06:04.someone like Abu Dua slip in and out of Britain? Our borders are
:06:05. > :06:08.tighter. We have wall-to-wall CCTV, some cameras with facial
:06:09. > :06:11.recognition. But nobody in counter-terrorism thinks that makes
:06:12. > :06:15.is immune. The French are pretty good at this.
:06:16. > :06:21.So if this is what we were not able to stop I fear that the situation in
:06:22. > :06:29.other European countries may be rather worse. Those countries which
:06:30. > :06:35.have proportionately large number of jihadi tourists, Belgium, Denmark,
:06:36. > :06:40.Germany, to name a few of the most prominent ones. I understand the
:06:41. > :06:44.German authorities are extremely nervous. The Danish authorities have
:06:45. > :06:51.just ramped up their own terror alerts. Yes, they are wise to do
:06:52. > :06:55.that. British police and MI5 are watching events here and quietly
:06:56. > :07:01.reviewing border security, checking watch lists, listening to agents.
:07:02. > :07:06.No French style state of emergency yet but the plots are coming thick
:07:07. > :07:08.and fast. And there is a new worry. More and more of them are being
:07:09. > :07:10.co-ordinated from Syria. Nick Hopkins on the challenge of IS
:07:11. > :07:12.in Europe. To talk about that,
:07:13. > :07:15.and also how to take the fight to their strongholds in Syria and Iraq,
:07:16. > :07:17.I'm joined by Ambassador Henry Crumpton, who was one
:07:18. > :07:30.of the leaders of the CIA's counter Thanks for joining us. What happened
:07:31. > :07:38.in Paris looks like a massive failure of intelligence, doesn't it?
:07:39. > :07:41.It is a horrendous tragedy and certainly there have been some
:07:42. > :07:47.intelligence faults. But I think the larger issue is the strategic policy
:07:48. > :07:54.failure to allow the enemy, Isis, to establish and maintain a safe haven,
:07:55. > :07:59.a proto- state, in the heart of the Middle East. And also to maintain
:08:00. > :08:06.micro havens in place like Molenbeek in Belgium. What can people do about
:08:07. > :08:11.it? You led the campaign in Afghanistan in 2001. Al-Qaeda were
:08:12. > :08:17.the main terror threat then. Is IS a different proposition? There are
:08:18. > :08:22.some similarities. One of the key reasons for the initial success in
:08:23. > :08:26.2001 was it was also a local victory. In that campaign you only
:08:27. > :08:31.had 400 Americans on the ground. You had Afghan ground forces and a
:08:32. > :08:36.superior air force that complemented what we were doing on the ground.
:08:37. > :08:42.That principle needs to be applied when we look at Isis but Isis is
:08:43. > :08:47.also different. They have a larger areas -- area. They have tens of
:08:48. > :08:51.thousands of fighters. They can infiltrate into Europe and other
:08:52. > :08:56.places more easily. They are battle hardened. They are sophisticated,
:08:57. > :09:00.using commercial encryption, which Al-Qaeda was not using very much of
:09:01. > :09:08.years ago. It is a tough target in many ways. It is more complex. The
:09:09. > :09:14.US, Britain, France, others, they will need to put several thousand
:09:15. > :09:17.troops on the ground to support and encourage local fighters,
:09:18. > :09:24.complemented by air power. You say air will never be enough? No. Air
:09:25. > :09:29.strikes need to complement what we're doing on the ground. Moreover
:09:30. > :09:35.the most important ally will be local allies, Muslim allies. It has
:09:36. > :09:38.to be their victory. To have a chance of an enduring success. And
:09:39. > :09:44.moreover the military part of this is essential to stop the enemy from
:09:45. > :09:50.killing us. But it buys space and time for non-military application
:09:51. > :09:54.all power to coming afterwards to secure a village or a valley. That
:09:55. > :10:00.is where we have failed across the board in Afghanistan, Libya are now
:10:01. > :10:04.in Syria and Iraq. You are saying if you were running this one, you would
:10:05. > :10:10.have boots on the ground. Do you think the CIA is arguing for that as
:10:11. > :10:19.well? I left the CIA years ago. I am not sure what they are arguing. I
:10:20. > :10:23.would hope they are on the ground. 50 special operations officers will
:10:24. > :10:29.be in Syria. You will need more than that. I'm guessing between 5000 and
:10:30. > :10:33.10,000 troops that are supporting local fighters. That is the key. It
:10:34. > :10:39.has to be a local victory. You need Turkey, Jordan and others to support
:10:40. > :10:44.this. It is ultimately about a local success. And right now we have a
:10:45. > :10:52.long way to go. How did they fail last time in your view? Who fail? In
:10:53. > :11:00.Afghanistan, for example, what was the failure? The failure was the
:11:01. > :11:06.follow-through. After the initial success you had a degree of
:11:07. > :11:12.stability all the way into 2004, 2005, that allowed al-Qaeda and the
:11:13. > :11:15.Taliban to flee Pakistan, regroup, train and infiltrate back into
:11:16. > :11:22.Afghanistan. Then you add a full-scale insurgency. Moreover, the
:11:23. > :11:27.US shifted focus and forces to Iraq. You have to finish the fight. That
:11:28. > :11:36.means non-military power. What kind of commitment do you think the US is
:11:37. > :11:39.looking to in Syria? The US needs to move and move now. There has been
:11:40. > :11:45.discussion of the need for strategic patients. I think now we need to
:11:46. > :11:49.think about the moral imperative of attacking the enemy, attacking the
:11:50. > :11:56.enemy now and destroying their safe haven, their command and control,
:11:57. > :12:00.and then addressing the conditions the enemy are exploiting. That
:12:01. > :12:04.includes some of the atrocities perpetrated by the Assad government,
:12:05. > :12:10.supported by Iran and Hezbollah. That is part of this equation. That
:12:11. > :12:15.is what has been feeding the Sunni fighters, including some of the Isis
:12:16. > :12:19.fighters. We talked about intelligence are little at the
:12:20. > :12:26.beginning. In yet the report before your interview someone was saying,
:12:27. > :12:33.European intelligence agencies are to BT. They need a centralised one.
:12:34. > :12:37.What do the CIA think of the European intelligence agencies?
:12:38. > :12:41.Years ago when I was there at the reputation was uneven. Some very
:12:42. > :12:45.good, some not so good. If you look at the lack of investment in
:12:46. > :12:49.intelligence security, and particularly the offence among
:12:50. > :12:53.European nations, that is a big shortfall. -- defence. The French in
:12:54. > :13:00.particular, particularly internal security, good. There are special
:13:01. > :13:07.operations, good. But you cannot expect predictive tactical
:13:08. > :13:10.intelligence perfection when you have got major enemy safe havens in
:13:11. > :13:17.the Middle East and some smaller micro havens right next door. You
:13:18. > :13:24.cannot expect perfect intelligence. You think there is a risk from
:13:25. > :13:29.refugees? Yes, I think that has been demonstrated by this horrible attack
:13:30. > :13:33.in Paris. However, I don't think that we should be drawn away from
:13:34. > :13:39.the more central issue of enemy safe haven in the heart of the Middle
:13:40. > :13:44.East. In fact, if the US working with allies, particularly France and
:13:45. > :13:48.others, could push back enemy safe havens next to Jordan and Turkey,
:13:49. > :13:53.you would provide an area for refugees where they could gather and
:13:54. > :13:56.they could be safe. The many displaced, millions of displaced
:13:57. > :14:02.people from Syria, they could be part of the occupation force after
:14:03. > :14:07.you push ices out. They need to be part of the solution and not a
:14:08. > :14:09.burden. Thank you so much Ambassador Crumpton.
:14:10. > :14:11.Almost a week after the horrors visited on their
:14:12. > :14:14.city last Friday night, Parisians have been starting the process of
:14:15. > :14:18.For some though, that process has yet to begin.
:14:19. > :14:21.The relatives of those who died haven't even had the chance to
:14:22. > :14:27.He lost his brother, Cederique, in the attack on the Bataclan
:14:28. > :14:34.concert hall, and Lewis Goodall has been talking to him.
:14:35. > :14:37.Cederique Mauduit was only 41 years old when he died on Friday.
:14:38. > :14:41.He shared a deep love of music with his brother, Mathieu.
:14:42. > :14:56.He leaves behind him a wife and two children aged seven and four.
:14:57. > :14:59.He went to see Eagles of Death Metal, a band that he liked.
:15:00. > :15:01.There were five friends, three escaped
:15:02. > :15:05.and they asked him to follow, but he couldn't for some reason.
:15:06. > :15:10.On another channel we saw that something bad was happening.
:15:11. > :15:14.First of all I said, oh my God, this is terrible.
:15:15. > :15:21.I thought, no, he won't be there, it is Antoine's birthday tomorrow.
:15:22. > :15:25.And the next day at half past seven the phone rang
:15:26. > :15:39.It was my mum saying, you know what's happening?
:15:40. > :15:43.I said, yeah, I've seen the TV, thank you.
:15:44. > :15:53.Unfortunately Antoine lost his dad, so his mother
:15:54. > :15:59.and I had to tell Antoine that his dad won't be able to come
:16:00. > :16:05.and see him and he will never see him again, but in his heart,
:16:06. > :16:13.We have to survive for him and we have to get strong.
:16:14. > :16:16.How do you begin to tell a child that their father has died
:16:17. > :16:30.It's hard enough for adults to understand, let alone children.
:16:31. > :16:46.We just said, most of them are dead, so don't worry.
:16:47. > :16:51.The point is just to say to your kids,
:16:52. > :17:01.Your dad is not here, I won't replace him 100%, but I'll do all
:17:02. > :17:10.They killed 130 people, perhaps more,
:17:11. > :17:13.they killed some people in Sudan or whatever, but guys, it's too late.
:17:14. > :17:17.You already lost, because the whole world is against you now.
:17:18. > :17:27.And if it is not me it's going to be somebody else and somebody else
:17:28. > :17:32.You lost, because God is not on your side.
:17:33. > :17:47."The worst news for patients in the history of the NHS" -
:17:48. > :17:49.that's how one campaign group described today's decision
:17:50. > :17:53.The first walk out will be on December 1st,
:17:54. > :17:55.after 98% backed industrial action on a respectable 76% turnout.
:17:56. > :17:58.The saga over their contracts has been rumbling on for three years,
:17:59. > :18:02.with the government presenting the changes as a push to give us
:18:03. > :18:04.a seven-day NHS in England, and doctors' groups claiming new working
:18:05. > :18:19.The doctors' union the BMA has been locked in an argument with the
:18:20. > :18:23.Government about changes to how junior doctors get paid and their
:18:24. > :18:27.working hours. We've shown you some of their stories. Without an
:18:28. > :18:33.agreement, the Government said it would impose changes on doctors. So
:18:34. > :18:42.the BMA balloted to strike. 6th November and I've received my ballot
:18:43. > :18:43.from the BMA. Today egot the results, junior doctors voted
:18:44. > :18:51.overwhelmingly for industrial action. Three days in December are
:18:52. > :18:57.in the diary when senior doctors will have to cover. One day for
:18:58. > :19:03.emergency care and others are full walkouts. The BMA says it wants to
:19:04. > :19:06.restart talks but only if they are arbitrated by ACAS, the arbitration
:19:07. > :19:11.service. The Health Secretary also says he wants talks but unarbitrated
:19:12. > :19:16.ones first. My door has been open for talks since June and the BMA
:19:17. > :19:22.have refused to engage at any stage with talks. We've had a thorough
:19:23. > :19:25.independent process. We now need to discuss the outcome of that process.
:19:26. > :19:29.I don't rule tout involvement of third parties in future, but for now
:19:30. > :19:33.the right thing to do is to call off the strike, come and talk to the
:19:34. > :19:39.Government about how we can work together to improve we weekend care
:19:40. > :19:44.for patients. This is really simple maths. This can't be safe. You can't
:19:45. > :19:49.guarantee you are not going to work more hours, if you are not going to
:19:50. > :19:54.give us more doctors... If there are December strikes it is not clear how
:19:55. > :19:59.public opinion will move. The NHS is already struggling. The English NHS
:20:00. > :20:03.aims to have fewer than 5% of A patients dealt with in more than
:20:04. > :20:07.four hours. September's figures for last year, when we didn't quite make
:20:08. > :20:12.that target. And this year, when we missed it by a bit more. Now that's
:20:13. > :20:19.an ill portent for this winter. That means we are in worse shape than
:20:20. > :20:23.last year. And last December more than 10% of admissions broke the
:20:24. > :20:26.four hour rule. So these strikes aren't ideally timed. The timing of
:20:27. > :20:30.this strike couldn't possibly be worse. We are heading into winter.
:20:31. > :20:34.The winter pressures on the health service are always considerable.
:20:35. > :20:38.That's inevitable. And I fear very much indeed that people will suffer
:20:39. > :20:44.as a result of these proposed actions. So there's public sympathy
:20:45. > :20:48.for doctors, but there's a risk in striking. If the NHS struggles and
:20:49. > :20:52.patients suffer over Christmas, the doctors could be blamed for it by
:20:53. > :20:55.the public. A strike is a powerful weapon, but it's not one without
:20:56. > :20:58.risks. Dr Johan Malawana is the Chair
:20:59. > :21:01.of Junior Doctors' Committee at the British Medical Association, which
:21:02. > :21:09.is organising the industrial action. You have timed this for absolute
:21:10. > :21:14.maximum disruption when people are most likely to need the NHS? That's
:21:15. > :21:17.not true Katie. We've been pushed into this action because of the
:21:18. > :21:21.effects of the Government. The Government came out in July and they
:21:22. > :21:26.have said they are going to impose a contract this August. We've been
:21:27. > :21:30.dictated the timetable by Jeremy Hunt and this Government. But you
:21:31. > :21:33.are having the strike? December? We've followed the legislation
:21:34. > :21:37.that's set out and we've been going through that as we've been asked.
:21:38. > :21:43.The fact is no junior doctor ever wants to go out an strike. But they
:21:44. > :21:49.are. The Government pushed us into this action. Even with a mandate of
:21:50. > :21:51.98%, we've said to the Government, please let's have proper
:21:52. > :21:55.conciliation talks and the Government refuses. I'm confused, as
:21:56. > :21:59.I understand it, in July in document came out by an independent body. You
:22:00. > :22:02.haven't negotiated on it at all. You haven't spoken to the Government
:22:03. > :22:06.since then, so why do you need to go to another third party. You might as
:22:07. > :22:09.well start the negotiations, why go on strike? The fact is the
:22:10. > :22:12.negotiations are being offered are not serious negotiations. Why not?
:22:13. > :22:15.That's a question for the Government. The Government has
:22:16. > :22:19.been... The Government say they are, of course. Well, the Government says
:22:20. > :22:25.that and yet junior doctors they'll have read the documents that Jeremy
:22:26. > :22:30.Hunt has set out. 98 periods of them have said the Government's position
:22:31. > :22:33.is not actually correct. What would serious negotiations look like to
:22:34. > :22:39.you then? We want a serious negotiation that basically takes
:22:40. > :22:45.away the threat of imposition, a gun that's held to the head of junior
:22:46. > :22:48.doctors, and we have a discussion about the safe working practice of
:22:49. > :22:53.junior doctors. That's key to this. If doctors work safely they'll be
:22:54. > :22:55.less tired and they can have less negative effects on patients. As a
:22:56. > :23:02.result you are putting patient safety at risk. On 8th December when
:23:03. > :23:07.it is a full strike, when there are no junior doctors in A, what's the
:23:08. > :23:12.worst that can happen? The fact is there are doctors throughout the NHS
:23:13. > :23:19.that will be working. Consultants and SAS doctors. But no junior
:23:20. > :23:23.doctors. Nurses, consultants and SAS doctors. We are committed to making
:23:24. > :23:28.sure we are going provide the safest NHS as we can in this. As we can.
:23:29. > :23:31.What's the impact, do you think? We've given the NHS three weeks of
:23:32. > :23:35.notice, two weeks more than we need, to because we are very clear we want
:23:36. > :23:39.the NHS to prepare for this. We want the Government to stop going down
:23:40. > :23:43.this pathway, stop pushing us into this industrial action. That's what
:23:44. > :23:48.we really want. Can you guarantee that nobody will die? We are really
:23:49. > :23:53.hoping that Jeremy Hunt... Hoping?! We hope that Jeremy Hunt takes away
:23:54. > :23:57.the threat of imposition and takes to us seriously about a safe
:23:58. > :24:02.contract for doctors. That's not an answer. Can you guarantee that
:24:03. > :24:04.nobody will die on December 8th? In medicine unfortunately there are no
:24:05. > :24:08.guarantees. There are more guarantees if all the doctors are
:24:09. > :24:11.there. We've said all along we want safe, fair contracts. The safety of
:24:12. > :24:17.patients in the long term is affected if Jeremy Hunt imposes this
:24:18. > :24:21.contract. What would you say to our viewers who've routine operations
:24:22. > :24:24.clanked for viewers who've routine operations
:24:25. > :24:29.clanked -- planned for those days. What's your message to them? The
:24:30. > :24:32.fact is no doctor wants to cause the disruption that we are seeing. What
:24:33. > :24:36.we are asking the public is to support their junior doctors and
:24:37. > :24:40.talk to the Government. Tell this Government that actually imposing an
:24:41. > :24:44.unsafe contract on junior doctors is ultimately going to have massive
:24:45. > :24:48.impact on both patients and the NHS. We need to actually safe to the
:24:49. > :24:52.Government, this is unfair and this is wrong. How much free time do you
:24:53. > :24:56.think it is reasonable for a junior doctor to have? You've been
:24:57. > :25:00.criticised for having enough time to run a separate business, a wedding
:25:01. > :25:05.photography business. I think I'm not going dignify that with an
:25:06. > :25:10.answer, because the fact is that we are here too talk about... You run a
:25:11. > :25:14.business on the side. I'm here to talk about junior doctors. Junior
:25:15. > :25:17.doctors are a vital component of the NHS. What we want to provide...
:25:18. > :25:22.Nobody's doubting that, absolutely not. We want to provide a safe
:25:23. > :25:26.service for our patients. If we cannot have a safe contract that
:25:27. > :25:30.protects our hours and stops us working in an unsafe way, that's
:25:31. > :25:33.ultimately going to be really unfair on doctors and their patients. But
:25:34. > :25:37.part of the argument is about the free time as you need. And if you
:25:38. > :25:40.you as a junior doctor are able to run a separate business, people out
:25:41. > :25:45.there might think, that's a little strange. What I did while I was
:25:46. > :25:50.doing research in my spare time is a different matter. So you no longer
:25:51. > :25:53.do it? What we are here to talk about is the safety of junior
:25:54. > :25:57.doctors and patients. I think that line of questioning suggests that we
:25:58. > :26:01.are not focusing on the issue that's absolutely at the heart of this. So
:26:02. > :26:07.you do still run a wedding photography business? The fact is...
:26:08. > :26:11.Yes or no? I spend all my time doing these interviews I'm afraid. So you
:26:12. > :26:16.are not running it? What we need to talk about is junior doctors and the
:26:17. > :26:23.safe hours that we are working. I am absolutely adamant that what we need
:26:24. > :26:26.to do is enter serious talks through the conciliation service, with ACAS.
:26:27. > :26:29.We've offered that with the Government and the Government
:26:30. > :26:32.refuses to engage with that. Johan Malaarwana, thank you.
:26:33. > :26:34.Earlier today, a minister finally answered some questions about
:26:35. > :26:37.a very expensive story - why was so much public funding given to the
:26:38. > :26:40.A committee of MPs quizzed Oliver Letwin,
:26:41. > :26:42.one of two ministers who overruled officials to hand ?3 million
:26:43. > :26:45.of public funds to the charity just days before it collapsed.
:26:46. > :26:59.What did Oliver Letwin have to do today? First he had to stop the
:27:00. > :27:04.whispering that this is really a story about David Cameron. There've
:27:05. > :27:07.been a few Murrays about how he is the ultimate patron of Kids Company.
:27:08. > :27:14.The reason it got so much money was it was his will. The second he had
:27:15. > :27:22.to do was making it seem like Kids Company were given money on a
:27:23. > :27:26.rational basis. How did he deal with it? He kept the Prime Minister out
:27:27. > :27:32.of it. That's good news for him. The bad news for him is he didn't really
:27:33. > :27:37.manage to put up a rational case for funding charity at all. For example
:27:38. > :27:42.there was a point when he started boasting how tough he'd been on the
:27:43. > :27:48.challenge. He gave an odd anecdote about taking a call from Alan Yentob
:27:49. > :27:52.in his car and turning him down for money. And he said we never believed
:27:53. > :27:57.their figures, so it didn't matter that they were wrong. Another person
:27:58. > :28:03.said, how did you know it was good charity? He said, I visited it. But
:28:04. > :28:07.not for more than a decade. The idea that this was a rational, careful
:28:08. > :28:12.use of public money, he didn't manage to accomplish that at all.
:28:13. > :28:15.Chris, thank you. I feel you'll be back here with more Kids Company
:28:16. > :28:18.stories soon. Now, it was a trip to see
:28:19. > :28:22.a friend that went horribly wrong. But if you live in Saudi Arabia
:28:23. > :28:25.and you get caught with home-brewed alcohol in your car,
:28:26. > :28:27.it's never going to end well. Last August, British oil manager
:28:28. > :28:30.Karl Andree was sentenced to a year in jail and 378 lashes after he was
:28:31. > :28:33.caught ferrying some homemade wine to a friend who was holding a party
:28:34. > :28:36.elsewhere in the city of Jeddah. Though
:28:37. > :28:38.the lashes never materialised, when the year ended Mr Andree
:28:39. > :28:41.wasn't released - until his family launched a public campaign and
:28:42. > :28:43.the British government intervened. The 74-year old arrived back in
:28:44. > :28:46.the UK last week and earlier this Take me back to that moment when
:28:47. > :28:54.you suddenly realised this is bad. Oh, God, yeah it was dreadful
:28:55. > :28:58.actually, the shock. You just want the earth to
:28:59. > :29:01.open up beneath you, because You know that you've been sentenced
:29:02. > :29:09.to one year and 378 lashes. Did you think you were
:29:10. > :29:13.going to be lashed? Well, I did, because he
:29:14. > :29:16.spelt it out in the trial. First of all he said four months
:29:17. > :29:24.for having it and drinking it. Eight months for giving it
:29:25. > :29:29.as a gift. In their eyes, their perception,
:29:30. > :29:37.giving it as a gift is worse than We use this word gift,
:29:38. > :29:46.it means you're encouraging them to drink more and to introduce other
:29:47. > :29:52.people to it. So in the prison every night,
:29:53. > :29:54.were you thinking, In the early part of my time there,
:29:55. > :29:58.yes. You kept thinking what
:29:59. > :30:03.an idiot you were. You feel dreadfully humiliated
:30:04. > :30:08.and angry with yourself really As a westerner living in Saudi,
:30:09. > :30:21.do you turn a blind eye to human rights abuses, the things that
:30:22. > :30:26.people here find appalling? You don't know why,
:30:27. > :30:32.and that's their business. We mustn't interfere,
:30:33. > :30:35.because that's the way they want to And you don't feel uncomfortable
:30:36. > :30:40.about that when you're there? In fact I feel more comfortable
:30:41. > :30:47.there than here at times. There's no muggings and things
:30:48. > :30:52.like that. A woman can walk around
:30:53. > :30:55.at night with no problems at all. A woman can't drive
:30:56. > :30:59.herself anywhere though. No, they are funny about that,
:31:00. > :31:01.but slowly that will change, They've been saying that
:31:02. > :31:04.for a long time haven't they, They've now got women in the Shura
:31:05. > :31:10.council, They must have voted by now
:31:11. > :31:17.for the municipalities. It's a man's world and that's their
:31:18. > :31:22.traditional thing, but the women are getting educated, and they are
:31:23. > :31:26.getting to be a very powerful force. How do you feel about Saudi Arabia
:31:27. > :31:29.now, having lived there for 25 years, then spent more than
:31:30. > :31:35.a year in jail? I've got no hard feelings
:31:36. > :31:39.against them. I went there in the '80s because I
:31:40. > :31:47.wanted to send my children to And I earned the money I could
:31:48. > :31:55.to do these things, so I've got I saw your daughter say that you're
:31:56. > :32:03.more trouble Do you look back and think,
:32:04. > :32:08.that was so foolish? You lost a whole year
:32:09. > :32:22.of your life at an age when each Yes, in the sunset years,
:32:23. > :32:30.as it were. When Hollywood star Charlie Sheen
:32:31. > :32:37.announced he was HIV positive earlier this week on American TV,
:32:38. > :32:41.perhaps the most shocking bit of the story was the millions of dollars
:32:42. > :32:43.he'd paid out to so-called friends That may be explained
:32:44. > :32:54.by the fact that an HIV diagnosis, thanks to medical advances,
:32:55. > :32:56.is no longer the automatic death sentence it once was, and many
:32:57. > :32:59.of us know people who've been living There are around 100,000 carrying
:33:00. > :33:20.the virus in the UK today. The days of scary HIV and AIDS
:33:21. > :33:27.awareness campaigns are behind us. But as the debate around Charlie
:33:28. > :33:31.Sheen has shown, HIV still has the power to grip the public
:33:32. > :33:35.imagination. We have, grow a long way since those campaigns. Medical
:33:36. > :33:41.breakthroughs have made the virus more manageable and harder to pass
:33:42. > :33:45.on. They have ushered in an age of nuance and confusion over what
:33:46. > :33:49.exactly constitutes safe sex. I'm here to admit that I am in fact
:33:50. > :33:54.HIV-positive. An issue brought into sharp focus
:33:55. > :33:58.this week when Sheen appeared on US television to confirm he is
:33:59. > :34:02.HIV-positive. Have you had unprotected sex Nani
:34:03. > :34:08.occasion since your diagnosis? Yes, but the people I did that with or
:34:09. > :34:11.under the care of my doctor and they weren't completely warned ahead of
:34:12. > :34:15.time. Cue outrage from commentators across
:34:16. > :34:19.the globe. Overlooking the medical nuance of his position. Why do
:34:20. > :34:25.people with HIV still suffer such stigma? I think a lot of people who
:34:26. > :34:31.are ignorant about HIV think if you have a diagnosis that is the end of
:34:32. > :34:35.your sex life. That is not true. If you are taking HIV treatment and you
:34:36. > :34:38.are adhering to it and taking it as you should, the treatment reduces
:34:39. > :34:46.the amount of virus in your body to such an extent that he will not pass
:34:47. > :34:49.on the virus to your partner. People do not understand that which is why
:34:50. > :34:56.we have seen this outbreak is about people living with HIV who have sex.
:34:57. > :35:02.Despite these advances there remains a huge stigma. Tom Hayes was
:35:03. > :35:06.diagnosed as HIV positive in 2011. It was the response to his diagnosis
:35:07. > :35:08.rather than the diagnosis itself that posed the biggest threat to his
:35:09. > :35:13.life. I went out for a meal with friends
:35:14. > :35:17.and I got a text message and another one and another one. Facebook and
:35:18. > :35:23.Twitter started to blow up. There were hundreds of tweets going, Tom
:35:24. > :35:29.as HIV and he is going around infecting people. My friends were
:35:30. > :35:34.pushing it over social media that I was infecting people. I read the
:35:35. > :35:42.messages. Hundreds of them. I just got more and more scared. I was
:35:43. > :35:45.angry. I was upset. It all got to the point where I thought I was
:35:46. > :35:49.going to take my own life. I even got to the step of getting dressed
:35:50. > :35:55.again and was heading out of the door to go and jump off a bridge in
:35:56. > :36:00.Birmingham city centre. Tom is clear, that that kind of abusive
:36:01. > :36:04.behaviour spreads from -- stems from ignorance of HIV, both how we catch
:36:05. > :36:08.it and how we treat it. This ignorance is reflected in recent
:36:09. > :36:14.data. According to a survey carried out last year, 28% of people think
:36:15. > :36:18.you can get HIV from kissing. 9% think you can die within a
:36:19. > :36:22.three-year is of contracting the virus. And 17% do not know that HIV
:36:23. > :36:29.can be passed on through sex without a condom. Worryingly, 40% of adults
:36:30. > :36:33.diagnosed last year worked late diagnoses, meaning they were
:36:34. > :36:36.diagnosed after they should have started life-saving treatment. They
:36:37. > :36:38.could have passed on the infection without even knowing they were
:36:39. > :36:47.carrying it. There are targets of 90. We want to
:36:48. > :36:53.get 90% of people on treatment, and 90% of people with an undetectable
:36:54. > :36:59.viral aid. Where the UK is falling behind is on getting people tested.
:37:00. > :37:03.We need to do more. Charlie Sheen has put HIV back into the
:37:04. > :37:07.spotlight. It may be some time before public understanding of the
:37:08. > :37:08.virus catches up with public interest in Hollywood Park --
:37:09. > :37:10.Hollywood's sex lives. Well Greg Louganis, the Olympic
:37:11. > :37:12.diver who now campaigns for the rights of people with HIV and
:37:13. > :37:25.AIDS, joins us from Los Angeles. It has been a couple of days since
:37:26. > :37:35.Charlie Sheen's admissions. How is it playing out over there? You know
:37:36. > :37:42.what, I don't have TV. I don't have cable. I don't watch TV and I don't
:37:43. > :37:47.read the tabloids. I have no idea how it is playing out! Let's talk
:37:48. > :37:54.about your reaction. How did you react when you heard the news? You
:37:55. > :38:01.know, I feel bad for Charlie that he has been keeping this secret for
:38:02. > :38:06.four years. I was diagnosed in 1988, six months prior to the Olympic
:38:07. > :38:10.games. I could not come forward with my HIV status or I would not have
:38:11. > :38:14.been able to compete. I would not have been allowed into the country.
:38:15. > :38:21.But we have come so far in the advances of treatment options as
:38:22. > :38:28.well as learning that if you have an undetectable viral load you are less
:38:29. > :38:32.likely to transmit the disease. But you have to take the medication as
:38:33. > :38:39.prescribed. That is something that is very important. For a period of
:38:40. > :38:43.time through the 27 years that I have been HIV positive, it has not
:38:44. > :38:49.always been easy to be compliant with my HIV medication because of
:38:50. > :38:50.the side-effects. But now, with the medication because of the
:38:51. > :38:54.side-effects. But now, with the medications that them in the evening
:38:55. > :39:00.and I go about the business of leaving -- living.
:39:01. > :39:04.I was struck by the fact that Charlie Sheen looked like he had
:39:05. > :39:08.been forced into this. But then when he said it, he did not say he had
:39:09. > :39:17.come here to tell you, he said he had come to admit he had HIV. Why
:39:18. > :39:25.does he have too admit it? You know what, you know it's interesting.
:39:26. > :39:28.Being a public person there are certain expectations and all that.
:39:29. > :39:40.There is a difference between secrecy and privacy. Secrecy is very
:39:41. > :39:45.harmful and damaging. And as a celebrity it is a really fine line
:39:46. > :39:49.what is secrecy and what privacy is. Everybody is entitled to a private
:39:50. > :39:56.life. Do you think for your campaigning, do you think it helps
:39:57. > :40:01.that you are straight? Definitely. I think it helps the cause whether he
:40:02. > :40:06.is straight or gay. I do not think that is so much at issue. We are so
:40:07. > :40:12.uptight about talking about our sexuality, sex, we are also
:40:13. > :40:20.inhibited about talking about addiction, depression, all of these
:40:21. > :40:27.things, they seem to be taboo topics. From the interview that I
:40:28. > :40:33.did see he did touch on those. And the doctor who is treating him said
:40:34. > :40:37.he is more concerned... Greg Louganis, I am so sorry to
:40:38. > :40:42.interrupt but I'm afraid we are out of time. It is the end of the
:40:43. > :40:44.programme. Sorry about that. Thank you so much.
:40:45. > :40:50.Time to tell you what is in the papers. The Daily Mail has the story
:40:51. > :40:54.that we covered last night, sex, drugs and blackmail claims that
:40:55. > :41:00.rocked the Tories. The Daily Telegraph, terrorist ringleader got
:41:01. > :41:03.into the EU as a refugee. And the Independent, permanent members of
:41:04. > :41:08.the UN Security Council poised to declare common war against
:41:09. > :41:13.jihadists, says the world is preparing a grand alliance against
:41:14. > :41:15.Isis. That is all we have time for tonight. Thanks for watching. Good