:00:00. > :00:07.An awful end to an awful week - an assault on the Radisson Blu hotel
:00:08. > :00:18.They shot a white man, they slit his throat.
:00:19. > :00:23.They were jihadists, speaking both French and English.
:00:24. > :00:27.Special forces went in, the attack is over, but not the fears of a new
:00:28. > :00:38.Also tonight, we hear from the man who filmed this scene
:00:39. > :00:43.And we hear from writer Martin Amis, who, a decade ago, coined the phrase
:00:44. > :00:49."the age of horrorism" to describe the kind of terror we're now seeing.
:00:50. > :00:51.The Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, joins us to talk
:00:52. > :00:55.about his party's economics and it's reaction to events in Paris.
:00:56. > :01:05.And tonight's Artsnight comes from artist Edmund de Waal.
:01:06. > :01:11.I am fascinated about the storytelling around objects and the
:01:12. > :01:15.memories that they can hold. So my night is all about the creative
:01:16. > :01:16.power of remembering, even those memories that we might rather
:01:17. > :01:23.forget. It's been seven days now -
:01:24. > :01:28.a week of trauma in Paris, a week in which Russia conceded its
:01:29. > :01:31.plane from Sharm El Sheik was bombed And today, an assault on an upmarket
:01:32. > :01:36.hotel in the capital of Mali. Jihadi attacks on the west and
:01:37. > :01:40.on the world. If it seems like a new era
:01:41. > :01:43.of terror for us, we must remember of course that for
:01:44. > :01:46.some parts of the world more distant And we start in Bamako,
:01:47. > :01:53.where there have been many deaths - reports vary between 17 and 27 -
:01:54. > :01:58.at the Radisson Blu hotel. Gabriel Gatehouse has been
:01:59. > :02:12.following today's events there, and The attack began at about seven in
:02:13. > :02:16.the morning at the Radisson Blu hotel, frequented by foreign
:02:17. > :02:21.businessman, diplomats, supposedly one of the most secure in the
:02:22. > :02:26.region. There were two people armed and on
:02:27. > :02:29.foot. They attacked the guards and they started shooting anything that
:02:30. > :02:34.moved. Troops were on the scene quickly,
:02:35. > :02:39.along with special forces from France and the US helping scores of
:02:40. > :02:45.visitors and Hotel staff to safety. Others were stuck inside with the
:02:46. > :02:51.gunman, holed up in the upper floor. We have one of colleagues inside. He
:02:52. > :02:56.is still there. Soldiers found at least three bodies
:02:57. > :03:02.as they entered the hotel. Many more people were in desperate danger.
:03:03. > :03:06.Witnesses said the attackers were heard reciting verses from the
:03:07. > :03:10.Koran. Another said some of the gunmen were speaking English.
:03:11. > :03:14.They were shooting everywhere. They shot a white man. They slit his
:03:15. > :03:20.throat. They were shouting, Allahu Akbar. They were speaking French and
:03:21. > :03:23.English. Malian officials said they had
:03:24. > :03:27.managed to free everyone from the hotel. But towards the end of the
:03:28. > :03:32.afternoon gunmen were still holding out inside.
:03:33. > :03:38.As I speak I am standing in front of the door of the Radisson Blu hotel.
:03:39. > :03:48.There is a movement. Sorry! Everyone is moving now. Everybody is asked to
:03:49. > :03:55.leave! There are gunshots. A UN police -- peacekeeping mission
:03:56. > :04:02.is not enough to control Mali's vast open desert which has been a haven
:04:03. > :04:08.for jihadists four years. The group said it carried out this attack. It
:04:09. > :04:12.is an offshoot of Al-Qaeda. One of a number of groups that has flourished
:04:13. > :04:16.in the aftermath of the Libya conflict in 2011. After the fall of
:04:17. > :04:20.Colonel Gaddafi, weapons and fighters flooded into Mali. By
:04:21. > :04:25.spring the following year Al-Qaeda linked militants had taken control
:04:26. > :04:29.of the north of the country. In January 2013, French and regional
:04:30. > :04:34.forces intervened, pushing back the jihadist from major cities. Attacks
:04:35. > :04:37.have continued. In August of this year 17 people were killed in a
:04:38. > :04:43.similar attack on a hotel in central Mali. France today dispatched 40
:04:44. > :04:49.special police forces to Mali to join an already significant
:04:50. > :04:53.presence, around a thousand soldiers. The question is inevitably
:04:54. > :04:57.being asked, was France the target? Rather links to the attacks in
:04:58. > :05:01.Paris? But Islamic state is not thought to have a significant
:05:02. > :05:09.presence here. More influential in this part of the
:05:10. > :05:17.Sahara has been Al-Qaeda, and also a group set up by Nigerian jihadists.
:05:18. > :05:24.They had reasons to want to make quite a statement, having seen Isis
:05:25. > :05:28.dominating the headlines in recent weeks.
:05:29. > :05:32.As Europe grapples with the enormity of what happened in Paris a week
:05:33. > :05:36.ago, the world focus has been on Islamic State. But events in Bamako
:05:37. > :05:43.were a reminder that they are not the only group intent on causing
:05:44. > :05:46.death and destruction. Today's attackers underscored how easy it is
:05:47. > :05:48.for jihadists to strike at soft targets and at will.
:05:49. > :05:52.Of course, with a French connection to Mali, the events resonated
:05:53. > :05:54.in France. There was a memorial service in Paris this
:05:55. > :06:15.Alongside sadness, there is also anxiety. If you wanted evidence of
:06:16. > :06:20.it came in news from France's Producers' Association which said
:06:21. > :06:25.sales of tickets for shows in Paris are down by 80% since the attacks.
:06:26. > :06:30.A week on, it's clear that last Friday's events are still very raw.
:06:31. > :06:33.And a week on, many are only now telling
:06:34. > :06:38.One person in particular, you'll want to hear.
:06:39. > :06:42.A journalist from Le Monde, who lived behind the Bataclan
:06:43. > :11:26.Nick Hopkins is in Paris, and has been talking to him.
:11:27. > :12:03.Would you like to meet her? And if you did, what would you say to her?
:12:04. > :12:07.Daniel Psenny talking to Nick Hopkins. Remarkable story.
:12:08. > :12:09.Joining me now from outside the Bataclan theatre is the
:12:10. > :12:12.journalist Christine Ockrent, who was previously editor in chief of
:12:13. > :12:26.Good evening. We start today with Mali in our minds as well. Do you
:12:27. > :12:35.see a connection with Mali and events a week ago? Well, of course.
:12:36. > :12:41.I think everybody had that on their minds throughout the day. The fact
:12:42. > :12:49.that France sent troops to Mali, as you recall, almost two years ago,
:12:50. > :12:54.the decision of the French president to actually try and tackle the jihad
:12:55. > :13:02.in that part of Africa. And France at the time, I must say, feeling
:13:03. > :13:10.rather lonely in actually confronting that kind of danger. The
:13:11. > :13:17.question was about French nationals today caught up in that hotel. But I
:13:18. > :13:23.think that the string of events, remember the Russian plane, then
:13:24. > :13:32.there was Beirut, with almost 50 dead. Then Paris. Then Bamako. We
:13:33. > :13:39.live in this age of terror. And we in Europe, and I think it is true in
:13:40. > :13:47.Britain and on the continent, we tend to believe we live in peace
:13:48. > :13:50.forever. And it is not true. Looking at the responses, we look at
:13:51. > :13:57.interior ministers meeting today. One of the responses is clearly to
:13:58. > :14:02.rebuild borders to some extent. Not going back to where they were
:14:03. > :14:05.decades ago. Do you think this is a period of retreat for the European
:14:06. > :14:10.Union? Whether that particular project has peaked and now we go
:14:11. > :14:18.back and become a little more national again? Well, I think
:14:19. > :14:24.obviously the European Union is far from the perfect scheme. But it is
:14:25. > :14:33.still unique in history. All our democratic governments. Maybe we
:14:34. > :14:39.have not done enough in terms of information, police coordination. I
:14:40. > :14:47.think the lack of solidarity in Europe today, especially with those
:14:48. > :14:50.Eastern and central European countries, when the union was
:14:51. > :14:56.enlarged a few years ago, the fact that these countries do not feel
:14:57. > :15:00.concern, it is not only disappointment but a sign of
:15:01. > :15:08.failure. But I think the history is not to be written off altogether.
:15:09. > :15:12.And I think we have common values. I think throughout Europe people feel
:15:13. > :15:19.that what happened in Paris was also an attack on them, an attack on our
:15:20. > :15:26.freedom, our ways of living, the status of women, all but we have
:15:27. > :15:29.conquered throughout centuries. I think that remains very solid indeed
:15:30. > :15:40.between us Europeans. What about the French, as a result
:15:41. > :15:47.of what has been happening, do you think the French will feel more
:15:48. > :15:50.pan-European or more ashen stick? Will it retreat, vote for the
:15:51. > :15:55.National front, or will they take a view that we are all in this
:15:56. > :16:01.together and we must be more European rather than French? Forgive
:16:02. > :16:07.me but I think that is a very British question! I think that the
:16:08. > :16:11.French, first of all, it need to test their own national bond and I
:16:12. > :16:18.think they have with great resilience. But think again, walking
:16:19. > :16:23.through the streets of Paris, particularly in this part, use your
:16:24. > :16:27.all sorts of languages. I was in Stockholm yesterday and people would
:16:28. > :16:31.ask me about Paris and they feel concerned as well. They know it
:16:32. > :16:35.could happen anywhere in Europe, as indeed and fortunately it has
:16:36. > :16:41.happened in Britain before. The game we have those common values. I think
:16:42. > :16:45.that together -- there, again, we have common values, together we must
:16:46. > :16:52.defend them and showed that that is what we want to do. Briefly,
:16:53. > :16:55.Christine, President Hollande, it seems that he has looked the part
:16:56. > :17:02.and played this in a mature and dignified way. Is his authority
:17:03. > :17:06.enhanced, is he looking stronger, or will people say that the French
:17:07. > :17:11.political establishment failed, the security and the intelligence wasn't
:17:12. > :17:16.good enough. Is this good for the establishment or bad for the
:17:17. > :17:22.political establishment? I think it is a bit too early to say. The
:17:23. > :17:28.former president Nicolas Sarkozy was too quick to try to politicise the
:17:29. > :17:35.events a couple of days ago. Breaking the period of national
:17:36. > :17:42.mourning. Of course it is all of benefit to the far right, that's a
:17:43. > :17:49.fact. It may well show in a couple of weeks's time, when we have local
:17:50. > :17:58.elections, and I think it is not so much the establishment per se, there
:17:59. > :18:10.is great admiration in Paris and in the rest of the country for the
:18:11. > :18:16.police, and indeed all the gendarmerie, all those people,
:18:17. > :18:20.remember the Charlie Hebdo massacre, for people who have shown their
:18:21. > :18:25.skills. I think it is too early to have that kind of a political
:18:26. > :18:29.effect. Very good to talk to you, thank you very much.
:18:30. > :18:31.The Labour Party has not had an easy week framing
:18:32. > :18:34.But the Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell,
:18:35. > :18:37.is hoping to move on from that - from clarifications and corrections
:18:38. > :18:40.that have been made over what is and isn't the policy on terrorism,
:18:41. > :18:42.and from exchanges of insults between senior party members.
:18:43. > :18:45.And he has made a speech on his economic policy today.
:18:46. > :18:47."Socialism with an iPad" is the striking phrase.
:18:48. > :19:01.A very good evening. Thank you for coming in. Socialism with an iPad.
:19:02. > :19:05.That is manufactured by Apple, in China, outsourced to China. Not
:19:06. > :19:11.considered a socialist company, are you a great admirer of them? The
:19:12. > :19:16.sort of company we want to engage with and we can reform it from
:19:17. > :19:19.within in a way making sure of worker representation and democracy
:19:20. > :19:25.and investing in the future. The sort of company we want to work
:19:26. > :19:31.with, yet transform. If there was a British version of Apple, or by any
:19:32. > :19:35.chance and wanted to move to the UK, it would not be able to operate on
:19:36. > :19:41.the terms it has been operating along in California. We would
:19:42. > :19:45.develop a relationship with the company saying we want you to invest
:19:46. > :19:51.in the future coming first in the skills of your workforce, interest
:19:52. > :19:54.in the long term future, and also make sure you are part of the
:19:55. > :20:00.communities we want to make sure we are attracting the right investment.
:20:01. > :20:04.To you think that Steve jobs created Apple by doing the things he talked
:20:05. > :20:10.about, what did he invest in his vision of the long term rather than
:20:11. > :20:15.yours? It is interesting that Apple started with a grant of half $1
:20:16. > :20:18.million from the state and had a relationship with the state and
:20:19. > :20:22.developed in that way. But is the way we want to relate to businesses.
:20:23. > :20:26.I think they are increasingly looking to the long-term future and
:20:27. > :20:31.that means looking to the workforce. In your speech today you proposed
:20:32. > :20:36.and innovation policy Council with business, unions, and scientists on
:20:37. > :20:44.it. Is that how Silicon Valley created Google and the iPad and
:20:45. > :20:48.things like that? It is true that the relationship between the state
:20:49. > :20:51.and private companies in America was significant. A lot of early research
:20:52. > :20:56.work was done due to government funding and due to the government
:20:57. > :21:00.relationship. President Obama has been clear with these companies,
:21:01. > :21:04.when they want to develop in his country he will pressurise them into
:21:05. > :21:09.long-term investment. We have never had that strategy in this country.
:21:10. > :21:15.It is a brutal process that goes on in Silicon Valley. You have self
:21:16. > :21:19.employed people trying to make a life for themselves, you implied
:21:20. > :21:24.today that you don't terribly like self-employed people. You didn't
:21:25. > :21:28.hear properly. What we said was that there is fragility about
:21:29. > :21:33.self-employment. We want to give them more security. Access to
:21:34. > :21:37.maternity and paternity pay. Just because you are self employed does
:21:38. > :21:42.not mean you shouldn't have that. Would you expect them to pay the
:21:43. > :21:46.same national insurance? Their taxation would be in proportion to
:21:47. > :21:56.the benefits they receive. It is not that expensive. The basic point is
:21:57. > :22:00.that it is brutal, and the fragility that you say self-employment creates
:22:01. > :22:06.is part of the dynamism. I do not think it has to be brutal, if it is
:22:07. > :22:09.a long-term plan, your investment strategy, you work together for
:22:10. > :22:13.common objectives, you succeed and that is what happened elsewhere. The
:22:14. > :22:16.point I was making today is that we have to choose about our future
:22:17. > :22:21.now. We've got a huge financial centre here and I want us to be the
:22:22. > :22:26.technology centre of Europe as well. High skills, high pay. In the end
:22:27. > :22:31.that means high investment in our economy. Can we talk of other things
:22:32. > :22:37.that have happened? You had a bit of a bad week. It was reviewed you had
:22:38. > :22:42.been posing with a document, the Socialist network manifesto in the
:22:43. > :22:49.campaign... And it proposed disbanding MI5 and disarming the
:22:50. > :22:54.police, you would clarify know that you don't believe that? Of course
:22:55. > :22:58.not. A group of youngsters put together a state on anti-austerities
:22:59. > :23:02.which I signed -- statement. They came along and asked me to be
:23:03. > :23:07.photographed with it, I thought it was the anti-austerities statement
:23:08. > :23:13.and it wasn't. It was a mistake. I am not in favour of scrapping MI5.
:23:14. > :23:17.My brother was a police officer for 35 years, responsible for royal
:23:18. > :23:21.protection in our area. I know exactly the risks they take and the
:23:22. > :23:26.job they do, that's why I support them. Punch Mac can you tell me what
:23:27. > :23:33.you do come in the realm of how you might assess a policy, disbanding
:23:34. > :23:37.MI5 isn't bad bonkers? Yes, and that is why I would not supported. You
:23:38. > :23:43.were hanging around with people who oppose it. These were young people,
:23:44. > :23:48.flashing around ideas. I spoke at the beginning of the meeting, about
:23:49. > :23:52.austerity, signed that and left. What was very nice this week is that
:23:53. > :23:56.those young people but at a statement saying, John did not sign
:23:57. > :24:00.this and he left the meeting before we discussed it. They were not
:24:01. > :24:06.setting me up for anything. It was just a mistake. On that specific
:24:07. > :24:10.point, when you denied that you had anything to do with it, that is
:24:11. > :24:15.because you had not understood you had had something to do with it. I
:24:16. > :24:19.did not realise I had been given the wrong document. Let me say about
:24:20. > :24:25.MI5, the government came forward with proposals to grease the
:24:26. > :24:27.security services this week and I wrote to George Osborne and rows in
:24:28. > :24:32.the House of Commons and said that the Labour Party will back you all
:24:33. > :24:35.the way on this. I said well that we would back them if they reviewed the
:24:36. > :24:40.policing cuts and also if they took it outside the fiscal mandate. Large
:24:41. > :24:43.mug you can see why people might be confused, you post with those people
:24:44. > :24:49.and you wanted to win left-wing votes in the election. And of course
:24:50. > :24:54.you end up reaping the rewards... It was a mistake. These young people
:24:55. > :24:59.are having a debate about these issues is. I don't agree with them
:25:00. > :25:03.on and I did not know they had done it on that document. There have been
:25:04. > :25:09.of mistakes this week. How would you rate your party's response to these
:25:10. > :25:12.events in Paris? In the debates with hard on the floor in the House of
:25:13. > :25:17.Commons we have backed the government 100% interim is of
:25:18. > :25:21.increasing the investment in intelligence services. We have been
:25:22. > :25:24.struggling policing. To keep our communities safer cod go ahead with
:25:25. > :25:28.the policing cuts you are planning. We have said that we will support
:25:29. > :25:31.them if they review the policing cuts and take them outside their
:25:32. > :25:36.financial constraints. We have been strong on that. We've made it clear
:25:37. > :25:38.with regards to the Metropolitan Police on our streets that we
:25:39. > :25:43.support them in terms of their proportionate use of force and yes
:25:44. > :25:48.if necessary lethal force. All the way along we have clarified our
:25:49. > :25:54.position. You have had to. It's been all over the place. Errors have been
:25:55. > :25:59.made in the way that we communicate our position and we have rectified
:26:00. > :26:03.that. These things happen. The Conservative Party, a few weeks ago,
:26:04. > :26:08.were going to the same problems. We had allegations about the Prime
:26:09. > :26:11.Minister and the corpse of a dead animal, George Osborne and his
:26:12. > :26:14.bitter defeat it in the House of Lords, and they were attacked on the
:26:15. > :26:18.European issue as well. They had a rough week. Events happen in
:26:19. > :26:25.politics. We are now in a position where the public know that we stand
:26:26. > :26:29.for their safety. You stand accused sometimes of being a party under
:26:30. > :26:33.this leadership that dabbles in student politics and isn't grounded
:26:34. > :26:39.in reality. Receive posing with students holding up their manifesto,
:26:40. > :26:44.the leader of the party having to clarify his position on whether it
:26:45. > :26:47.is OK to shoot terrorists who have Kalashnikovs and are killing people.
:26:48. > :26:53.You can see why people don't yet know if this party is the government
:26:54. > :26:57.over protest. I understand that. We have been in position for seven
:26:58. > :27:00.weeks. You learn a lot in that period. What we have tried to do is
:27:01. > :27:05.make sure people are clear on where we stand. Occasionally it does go
:27:06. > :27:10.wrong and we had a rough week, the Tories had won just three weeks ago.
:27:11. > :27:13.We are coming out of that week. Learned a lot of lessons about being
:27:14. > :27:18.clear on where we stand and communicating thats in addition to
:27:19. > :27:22.that, engaging more with people and listening to people better, you
:27:23. > :27:30.learn these lessons quickly. John McDonnell, thank you. You may have
:27:31. > :27:35.seen our investigation into what one MP called institutional bullying in
:27:36. > :27:40.the youth wing of the Conservatives. The party is coming under mounting
:27:41. > :27:45.pressure to explain what it knew about Mark Clarke, who is alleged to
:27:46. > :27:50.be a percent of it, and when. Party chairman Lord Feldman said he had no
:27:51. > :27:55.complaints about Porical before August when he launched an inquiry.
:27:56. > :27:56.James Clayton tonight has evidence that senior figures knew plenty
:27:57. > :28:05.about him before that. On Wednesday this man was expelled
:28:06. > :28:10.from the party. Tonight, there is increasing pressure on senior
:28:11. > :28:12.Conservatives, the former party chairman Grant Shapps and the
:28:13. > :28:18.current party chairman Lord Feldman. But Feldman had previously
:28:19. > :28:23.said he was wholly unaware of any allegations against Clarke until
:28:24. > :28:27.August 2015. However tonight the chief of staff of his former
:28:28. > :28:33.co-chair, Grant Shapps, has been in touch, saying complaints had been
:28:34. > :28:37.made months earlier. He said "I first complained internally about
:28:38. > :29:00.Mark Clarke in 2014 when two activists got in touch."
:29:01. > :29:07.Tonight Newsnight can reveal that one party worker who helped Clarke
:29:08. > :29:11.on the election campaign told officials in writing that Clarke had
:29:12. > :29:17.been guilty of extreme aggressive behaviour verging on violence. The
:29:18. > :29:21.complaint was part of a submission to the official candidate's report
:29:22. > :29:27.on Clarke. The party worker described an incident at an internal
:29:28. > :29:28.party conference in which Clarke singled me out, started chatting at
:29:29. > :29:41.me After officials had seen the report
:29:42. > :29:45.Mark Clarke was not allowed on the party's a list of candidates
:29:46. > :29:48.although he denies ever being a bully. The disclosure that the party
:29:49. > :29:54.had written evidence of his bullying as early as 2010 means that Grant
:29:55. > :30:00.Shapps faces an awkward question. Why on earth did he give Clarke a
:30:01. > :30:03.prominent campaigning role in 2014? Last night Grant Shapps was
:30:04. > :30:10.understood to be in Sudan and could not be contacted for comment.
:30:11. > :30:14.I noticed the Daily Mail is leading on that story tomorrow.
:30:15. > :30:20.There's a lot to take in, a lot to say, even if it is hard to find new
:30:21. > :30:33.A week after the 9/11 attacks, the writer Martin Amis wrote
:30:34. > :30:36.a piece about how dramatic an event the second plane striking
:30:37. > :30:41.You could taste the "bile of its atrocious ingenuity".
:30:42. > :30:43.In the years after, he went on to write more about what
:30:44. > :30:48.He called it a civil war within Islam, and said it appeared to
:30:49. > :30:55.Well, Martin Amis joins us now, from New York.
:30:56. > :31:13.Good evening. What was your reaction to those events in Paris when you
:31:14. > :31:18.heard about them? Well, as one of the survivors said, they are the
:31:19. > :31:27.enemies of happiness. That is how it must have felt in Paris. They are
:31:28. > :31:36.very much seeing it as an attack on their youth and an attack on life
:31:37. > :31:46.itself as exemplified by them. Great grief and also this comes on top of
:31:47. > :31:55.a barrage of attacks in Baghdad, in Beirut, the Russian airliner that
:31:56. > :32:00.was shot down. It does seem as if we are going through a node of intense
:32:01. > :32:07.terrorist activity. You said that the Civil War in Islam was over
:32:08. > :32:17.because the extremists at won. I wonder whether that is really true?
:32:18. > :32:21.Well, I think that the real Civil War in Islam is between the Sunni
:32:22. > :32:29.and Shia, which has been going on for one and a half millennia. There
:32:30. > :32:38.is a battle for hearts and minds that only seems to have one voice so
:32:39. > :32:43.far. We know that it is Muslims that suffer at something like 95% more
:32:44. > :32:53.casualties in these terrorist attacks. Yet there has not been a
:32:54. > :32:58.huge groundswell of decent and sane Muslim opinion. That is for the
:32:59. > :33:03.age-old reason that the violent bear it away. The violent intimidate us,
:33:04. > :33:09.let alone them. Maybe you do not mix with enough Muslims, Mr Amis. There
:33:10. > :33:13.are plenty of moderate Muslims who condemn, who do everything they can
:33:14. > :33:18.to condemn. I wonder why you would want to draw a distinction between a
:33:19. > :33:23.moderate Muslim, who is no more a perpetrator of these horrific acts,
:33:24. > :33:28.and somebody who is not a Muslim? I am sorry, I cannot hear you. I am
:33:29. > :33:33.just wondering whether it is helpful to, if you like, single out moderate
:33:34. > :33:39.Muslims as somehow not having enough to say. They are in the same place
:33:40. > :33:51.as the rest of us, aren't they? No, this is something you cannot help
:33:52. > :33:57.but notice. I don't think... Insurgencies need the support of
:33:58. > :34:03.their communities. Are they used to. I think we should talk about the way
:34:04. > :34:06.that Islamic State differs from previous insurgencies, terrorist
:34:07. > :34:16.insurgencies. It differs in very dramatic ways. It has its own
:34:17. > :34:26.statelet, mini-state, which is -- which it is attempting to administer
:34:27. > :34:32.and run. It also offers its conscripts not only adventurer and
:34:33. > :34:37.righteousness and violence and the chants of booty and camaraderie, but
:34:38. > :34:45.it also offers, for the first time, it offers women. One of the great
:34:46. > :34:49.innovations of Islamic State is that it has somehow managed to include
:34:50. > :34:58.women and sexual relations with the rape of slave girls. And also those
:34:59. > :35:03.inexplicable conscripts from the West to go there are hoping to find
:35:04. > :35:10.a husband. Al-Qaeda never offered that kind of recreation to its foot
:35:11. > :35:16.soldiers. But Islamic State is attempting to do that. But you are
:35:17. > :35:24.not suggesting that it has, if you like, tacit support from Muslims
:35:25. > :35:33.more generally? Is that what you are suggesting? No, I am not. The
:35:34. > :35:40.support is patchy. It is weak. It is around 30% of tacit support, of not
:35:41. > :35:46.ruling out possible justifications for a suicide bombing etc. I'm sure
:35:47. > :35:52.the vast majority of Muslims are disgusted by all of this. They are
:35:53. > :35:57.silenced by fear. Which we all know about. Martin Amis, we need to leave
:35:58. > :36:00.it there. Thank you much indeed.
:36:01. > :36:04.Artist Edmund de Waal has always been obsessed with how memory
:36:05. > :36:09.So in the programme he meets the Aurora Orchestra, who are famous for
:36:10. > :36:15.And he also explores a memory that history has tried to
:36:16. > :36:25.forget - the story of the Nazi Party's obsession with porcelain.
:36:26. > :36:29.we back up all our memories and our knowledge,