:00:00. > :00:00.and we're devoting our programme tonight to it.
:00:07. > :00:11.The debate over military action in Syria.
:00:12. > :00:16.We have to hit these terrorists in their heartland right now.
:00:17. > :00:19.The Prime Minister set out the case for war.
:00:20. > :00:22.The Commons also heard the case against.
:00:23. > :00:27.Enemies to the right of of us, enemies to the left of it!
:00:28. > :00:32.We'll hear from those who've recently fled
:00:33. > :00:36.Islamic State's hub, the city of Raqqa.
:00:37. > :00:39.And we'll ask, will military action work?
:00:40. > :00:45.There's talk of meltdown in the Labour Party over the issue.
:00:46. > :00:49.Diane Abbott will be with us to set out her view.
:00:50. > :00:54.And we meet this family escaping Syria to come to Scotland.
:00:55. > :01:10.Syria is enduring a civil war that has now run longer than World War I.
:01:11. > :01:14.The country had a population of 22 million before it started.
:01:15. > :01:17.It's now reported to be down to 16.5 million.
:01:18. > :01:24.Seven million of those who remain are internally displaced.
:01:25. > :01:27.more than a quarter of a million people.
:01:28. > :01:29.It was complicated enough before last year,
:01:30. > :01:32.when the self-styled Islamic State declared a caliphate
:01:33. > :01:36.and overran territory that covered much of Syria and Iraq,
:01:37. > :01:41.but there are now clearly bad guys on both sides of the conflict.
:01:42. > :01:43.And the issue is whether Britain should get more involved
:01:44. > :01:47.in the fight against one of them in Syria - Isil.
:01:48. > :01:51.The Prime Minister set out why we should,
:01:52. > :01:53.and MPs had the chance to raise their concerns,
:01:54. > :01:58.We'll take the time to set out the key issues,
:01:59. > :02:00.but let's start by hearing from Allegra Stratton
:02:01. > :02:14.It is a caution, but today, whether or not
:02:15. > :02:18.numbers. The concerns of MPs caution, but today, whether or not
:02:19. > :02:22.the Prime Minister to the house with a 7-point response. There
:02:23. > :02:23.the Prime Minister to the house with 7 points back from Jeremy Corbyn,
:02:24. > :02:31.five points from 7 points back from Jeremy Corbyn,
:02:32. > :02:36.number, the 324 MPs needed to win a vote in Parliament. Statement, the
:02:37. > :02:40.Prime Minister! The Prime Minister set out his strategy, the seven
:02:41. > :02:45.points addressed in turn, why, why ask, why now, the legal basis,
:02:46. > :02:52.allies on the ground, overall strategy, and the end goal. Gogol
:02:53. > :02:55.allies on the ground, overall do face a fundamental threat to our
:02:56. > :02:58.security, we have to hit the securities in
:02:59. > :03:02.security, we have to hit the now. And we must not shirk our
:03:03. > :03:06.responsibility for security or hand it to others. Mr Speaker, throughout
:03:07. > :03:12.our history the United Kingdom has stood up to defend our values and
:03:13. > :03:18.our way of life. We can and we must do so again. Jeremy Corbyn had his
:03:19. > :03:22.seven questions. He later wrote to MPs opposing action, but in the
:03:23. > :03:26.chamber his reluctance was on show. The question must now be when
:03:27. > :03:32.extending the UK bombing from Iraq to Syria is likely to reduce or
:03:33. > :03:35.increase that thread. And whether it will counter or spread the terror
:03:36. > :03:39.campaign Isil is waging in the Middle East. But this man is
:03:40. > :03:43.something of a weather vane - the chair of the committee that said the
:03:44. > :03:48.Prime Minister the seven tests, he said this. It is now my personal
:03:49. > :03:54.view that, on balance, the country would be best served by this house
:03:55. > :03:58.supporting his judgment that the United Kingdom should play a full
:03:59. > :04:05.role in the coalition. But what are the numbers? Two, the UN resolution
:04:06. > :04:09.which many think authorises action, including some sitting behind Jeremy
:04:10. > :04:16.Corbyn, at odds with their leader. Candy confirmed that it does not
:04:17. > :04:21.just permit all necessary steps to be taking? -- can he confirm. But it
:04:22. > :04:27.actually calls upon member states to take all necessary steps. 70,000 is
:04:28. > :04:31.the number of moderate Syrian opposition troops the Prime Minister
:04:32. > :04:36.said would do the heavy lifting. Many doubted this number. The
:04:37. > :04:41.suggestion that there are 70,000 none Islamist moderate, credible
:04:42. > :04:45.ground forces, I have to say, is a revelation to me, and I suspect most
:04:46. > :04:49.other members in this house. The Prime Minister has talked about
:04:50. > :04:51.70,000 Free Syrian Army troops, how many of those are in the north-east
:04:52. > :05:02.of Syria on the front line against Syrian regime forces? And the fate
:05:03. > :05:07.of one man, President Assad. As in 2013, any idea of his removal is
:05:08. > :05:10.highly contentious. Any agreement will have to involve unpleasant
:05:11. > :05:17.people being involved, and not just people who would naturally be our
:05:18. > :05:24.allies, and Assad and other people may have 2 be involved. How will he
:05:25. > :05:29.avoid giving support or appearing to give support to Assad forces and
:05:30. > :05:35.becoming dependent on Assad forces, and how will he avoid that giving
:05:36. > :05:39.succour to Isil in its recruitment in the region? This is a really
:05:40. > :05:42.unusual parliamentary moment. The Prime Minister told us today he will
:05:43. > :05:48.only bring a vote if he thinks he will win it. That takes a lot of the
:05:49. > :05:53.jeopardy out of the vote, he will only bring a vote to this place if
:05:54. > :05:58.he is said and he will not lose. So can he get to that 324 majority?
:05:59. > :06:03.Well, if you imagine there is about 15 Tory rebels, they are cancelled
:06:04. > :06:08.out by 15 Labour rebels coming over to support the Prime Minister. Add
:06:09. > :06:11.in the DUP and top up that number with a few more Labour supporters,
:06:12. > :06:15.and the Prime Minister this evening probably does have his numbers.
:06:16. > :06:18.Let's pick up on some of those themes, Allegra is with me.
:06:19. > :06:20.The debate is clearly within as well as across parties,
:06:21. > :06:23.which brings us to what can only be called turmoil
:06:24. > :06:33.Diggers through what happened today. There was a meeting of the Shadow
:06:34. > :06:36.Cabinet. We expect that Jeremy Corbyn and the Shadow Chancellor
:06:37. > :06:42.will decide they cannot vote. It is, but we understand from this meeting
:06:43. > :06:46.that the majority of the people who spoke did so in favour of strikes,
:06:47. > :06:50.so far so simple, except for the fact that also suggested was the
:06:51. > :06:55.idea that there want there to be an absolute whipped vote in favour of
:06:56. > :06:58.strikes. In favour of strikes, as opposed to what you have heard about
:06:59. > :07:04.so far, a whip to vote against strikes. They were really pushing
:07:05. > :07:07.it. My understanding is, firstly, as you suggest, this would be
:07:08. > :07:11.extraordinary, because we think this would be the first time in recent
:07:12. > :07:15.memory that you have got a leader and his Shadow Chancellor boating to
:07:16. > :07:22.defy a whip, so why would they say that? -- voting macro. There is
:07:23. > :07:26.electable and it, the view that you cannot be the opposition and have
:07:27. > :07:32.heard everything and not doing anything about it. There is the
:07:33. > :07:36.principle of it, people like Vernon Coaker, who just believe it. And
:07:37. > :07:40.then there are those were fed up with Jeremy Corbyn, it is understood
:07:41. > :07:45.that Tom Watson, the deputy leader, who would be right there in the
:07:46. > :07:48.middle. Critically, in terms of this question about a whipped vote,
:07:49. > :07:53.personally I do not think it is a goer. They have until Monday to
:07:54. > :07:59.decide, but I think it is a negotiating position, they really
:08:00. > :08:00.want a free vote, and if they push for the whipped vote, the compromise
:08:01. > :08:02.is something in the middle. Well, the Shadow International
:08:03. > :08:04.Development Secretary, Diane Abbott, is here with me to discuss
:08:05. > :08:06.Labour's position on Syria, but before we do, Jo Cox,
:08:07. > :08:08.another Labour MP, who actually spoke out
:08:09. > :08:11.in support of intervention in the Commons today,
:08:12. > :08:25.joins us via Skype. Just take us through your position
:08:26. > :08:30.on this as of now, Jo. Thanks, just to clarify, I am as yet and decided,
:08:31. > :08:37.but I thought today was an important step forward with the Prime
:08:38. > :08:42.Minister. -- undecided. The Prime Minister presented a compelling case
:08:43. > :08:45.of the threat that Isis bases as in Britain. It is three years to late,
:08:46. > :08:49.it should not have taken a humanitarian crisis of this scale
:08:50. > :08:54.for the attacks in Paris to do that, but I welcome the fact that he had a
:08:55. > :08:58.comprehensive strategy today. My outstanding concerns relate to just
:08:59. > :09:03.how much emphasis the Government will give to dealing with the
:09:04. > :09:06.brutality of Assad, which cannot be separated from any strategy to
:09:07. > :09:11.tackle the horror of Isis. If you come to the view that we should get
:09:12. > :09:16.involved, we should bomb, would you see that as the kind of you that you
:09:17. > :09:21.would divide a party whip on if that was necessary? I think this has to
:09:22. > :09:25.be a matter of conscience for all MPs, and speaking to many colleagues
:09:26. > :09:30.on all sides of the house today, I think many share that view. Yeah, I
:09:31. > :09:36.think all of us have to think first and foremost about how do we keep
:09:37. > :09:40.Britain safe, but secondly how do we ensure that we protect Syrians who,
:09:41. > :09:45.of course, are suffering untold horrors as we speak, and this crisis
:09:46. > :09:50.and our strategy has to be about a political transition in Syria that
:09:51. > :09:55.ultimately ends the conflict. Very briefly, it may be, I don't know,
:09:56. > :09:59.but in your constituency, your local members responsible for running your
:10:00. > :10:02.local party, they may take a different view and come to a
:10:03. > :10:08.different conclusion to you. Do you see it as important to listen to
:10:09. > :10:13.them autistic to your own view? I mean, I have been talking to party
:10:14. > :10:17.members about this issue for many, many months, and there is a
:10:18. > :10:22.divergent views among party members, as amongst the public. I
:10:23. > :10:26.feel that it is my responsibility to listen to that diversity of views,
:10:27. > :10:37.but ultimately take a view as to what I think we'll keep Britain safe
:10:38. > :10:42.from the threat of Isis. Thank you very much indeed. Diane Abbott,
:10:43. > :10:45.should Jo Cox vote with her conscience on this issue? I think
:10:46. > :10:51.what we should all do is look at what will make British people safe,
:10:52. > :10:55.first and foremost, as parliamentarians, that must be our
:10:56. > :11:00.concern, but on the Shadow Cabinet today, which I was actually at! I
:11:01. > :11:06.think it was a bit more balanced than the people who came out and
:11:07. > :11:10.briefed Allegra. We agree that we have to vote to keep Britain safe,
:11:11. > :11:15.we have to go back to our constituencies, talk to friends,
:11:16. > :11:19.families and party members. We have agreed to speak to constituents,
:11:20. > :11:24.friends, families and party members and come back on Monday and take a
:11:25. > :11:28.decision. But this notion of the Shadow Cabinet as some kind of
:11:29. > :11:31.workers' collective, which can decide the whipping, I have been in
:11:32. > :11:36.Parliament for 28 years, I have never heard that, that would be an
:11:37. > :11:41.innovation! Who decides which way it is whipped? You know as well as I
:11:42. > :11:45.do, the leader consults with colleagues and the whips' office,
:11:46. > :11:49.very important, but it is the leader, so how is the Shadow Cabinet
:11:50. > :11:55.going to decide that?! Does everybody agree on that? As far as I
:11:56. > :12:07.know, there is no president macro for the Shadow Cabinet trying to
:12:08. > :12:12.throw down their leader. -- precedent. The YouGov polls show
:12:13. > :12:16.that 70% of party members are against bombing. But it shows that
:12:17. > :12:20.59% of the public are in favour, so which should members listen to,
:12:21. > :12:25.membership of the party or the public out there? The point I am
:12:26. > :12:30.making is that there has been a lot of talk of split in the party, but
:12:31. > :12:37.the party members and Jeremy are united, the issue is with MPs. But
:12:38. > :12:40.aren't MPs responsible to voters? We are all responsible to the
:12:41. > :12:44.electorate, we all have a responsibility, as I said at the
:12:45. > :12:48.beginning, to keep the British people safe. I disagree with Jo, I
:12:49. > :12:58.do not think David Cameron has made the case. Who are the ground forces
:12:59. > :13:00.supposed to be? The real danger, and I do not think there is public
:13:01. > :13:03.support for this, as we will get drawn into a land war in Syria.
:13:04. > :13:07.There will have to be a free vote, won't there? Is it possible that the
:13:08. > :13:11.leader of the party can vote a different way to the foreign
:13:12. > :13:16.spokesman of the party, Hilary Benn, on an issue of going to war, and for
:13:17. > :13:19.both of them to stay in their posts? Many people will think it is not
:13:20. > :13:25.conceivable, Hilary Benn and Jeremy Corbyn to be imposed and vote on
:13:26. > :13:28.different sides on this. Many people think it is not conceivable that the
:13:29. > :13:36.Shadow Cabinet can decide the whipping. We will come together on
:13:37. > :13:38.Monday and arrive at a unified position in the interests of the
:13:39. > :13:41.British people. Jeremy Corbyn said today, we are going to come back on
:13:42. > :13:45.Monday, have a discussion and come to a collective view, but the view I
:13:46. > :13:48.have, and I will only accept, is that I will not vote for military
:13:49. > :13:55.action. That is not very polite, is it? He is showing leadership, making
:13:56. > :13:59.his position clear. When the Shadow Cabinet members said, what a
:14:00. > :14:04.surprise, no, he said it at the beginning of the meeting. You said
:14:05. > :14:09.earlier that this is a very unusual situation, I have been here two
:14:10. > :14:09.times before, when the drums of war are beating
:14:10. > :14:16.times before, when the drums of war there seems to be this irresistible
:14:17. > :14:20.pressure for British intervention. I have been here before, I never
:14:21. > :14:22.thought I would be here for a third time of asking. I do not believe
:14:23. > :14:26.that bombing without a time of asking. I do not believe
:14:27. > :14:30.diplomatic strategy, without troops on the ground will actually cut of
:14:31. > :14:49.the head of the snake that is Isis and bring peace to Syria.
:14:50. > :14:56.there have to be boots on the ground to complement any bombing,
:14:57. > :14:58.The Prime Minister says we can't wait
:14:59. > :15:01.for the politics to fall into place, we must take action now,
:15:02. > :15:03.but he agrees bombing won't work alone.
:15:04. > :15:05.But as we've said, the conflict is complicated -
:15:06. > :15:07.countries more and less friendly to us are involved,
:15:08. > :15:10.united in hating Isil, implacably opposed on the issue of Assad,
:15:11. > :15:15.or on the Kurds, or on Sunni-Shia tensions.
:15:16. > :15:53.Mark Urban is here to explain some of the intricacies.
:15:54. > :16:15.Most of Syria, it's the Assad army or one of the rebel groups.
:16:16. > :16:19.David Cameron today talked about 70,000 moderate rebels.
:16:20. > :16:23.Experts don't disagree wildly on the number,
:16:24. > :16:31.rather it's dozens of non-jihadist groups
:16:32. > :16:34.with politics from the fundamentalist to democrats,
:16:35. > :16:42.Foreign forces might play all sorts of roles,
:16:43. > :16:47.including sealing Turkey's border with Syria.
:16:48. > :16:50.Without foreign ground forces, pressure will be limited,
:16:51. > :17:04.Is there any cause for optimism on military action?
:17:05. > :17:10.Well, just recently there's actually been one important
:17:11. > :17:14.development, and that's the battle to hit Islamic State's finances
:17:15. > :17:18.by attacking its income from clandestine oil exports.
:17:19. > :17:24.The trade is carried by tanker trucks that sell oil and
:17:25. > :17:27.refined products to both the Syrian government and Turkish middlemen.
:17:28. > :17:29.Russia has recently launched air strikes
:17:30. > :17:35.So in recent days, the Americans have also been
:17:36. > :17:41.hitting the tanker convoys and oil markets,
:17:42. > :17:43.strafing and blowing up tankers in this footage.
:17:44. > :17:45.They've actually got rather competitive with the Russians,
:17:46. > :17:58.But Islamic State still has the options of taxing local people
:17:59. > :18:01.more heavily and raising more from sympathisers abroad.
:18:02. > :18:14.So what is the key, what are the keys to moving forward? You could go
:18:15. > :18:17.for an internationally negotiated deal leading to a UN resolution,
:18:18. > :18:19.international peacekeeping forces. You might call that
:18:20. > :18:21.the Bosnian model. regional consensus,
:18:22. > :18:30.simply isn't there. This week we've seen
:18:31. > :18:34.the sharp escalation of tension between two key players -
:18:35. > :18:36.Russia and Turkey. advanced long-range
:18:37. > :18:43.anti-aircraft missiles at its base in Syria
:18:44. > :18:47.that could be used to shoot down Turkish fighters if there was
:18:48. > :19:05.a repeat of Tuesday's incident. Although there has been some talk
:19:06. > :19:09.through the so-called Vienna progress, unless you can get Assad
:19:10. > :19:13.backed by Russia, the rebel groups backed by the Gulf states, Turkey,
:19:14. > :19:17.unless you can get them closer together, you know, there isn't
:19:18. > :19:22.going to be a meaningful change in the situation. We know Russia says
:19:23. > :19:24.it is hitting IS, but so many of the strikes have been against the
:19:25. > :19:29.moderates that David Cameron was talking about today, and frankly,
:19:30. > :19:33.unless you crack that central conundrum of Assad and the rebel
:19:34. > :19:37.groups, people will carry on supporting IS, and everything
:19:38. > :19:39.America does, and by extension Britain, will be peripheral to that
:19:40. > :19:42.central question. Thanks, Mark.
:19:43. > :19:44.Now in the Commons today, the intervention of one man
:19:45. > :19:45.was important. He is Crispin Blunt, chair of the
:19:46. > :19:48.Foreign Affairs Select Committee. His committee had written a report
:19:49. > :19:50.sceptical of military action, but Mr Blunt now says his
:19:51. > :19:53.reservations have been dealt with and he is in support,
:19:54. > :20:03.and he's here with us. Good evening to you. This sounds
:20:04. > :20:07.like a morass, you were sceptical, you said there had to be some kind
:20:08. > :20:10.of provisional political arrangement to provide boots on the ground, to
:20:11. > :20:17.provide something to fill the gap if you get rid of Isil. What has
:20:18. > :20:20.changed? What has satisfied you? Vienna has changed things. If you
:20:21. > :20:25.look at the conclusions of the Vienna meeting on the 14th of
:20:26. > :20:28.November, you can see the route to a transition process, and the
:20:29. > :20:32.significance of Vienna is that you have got all the key countries
:20:33. > :20:36.around the table, the Iranians and the Saudis, a process led by the
:20:37. > :20:39.Americans and the Russians. And the key elements to that agreement
:20:40. > :20:44.outlined the future type of state that Syria will be, it outlines the
:20:45. > :20:48.political process, the electoral process that will happen at the end
:20:49. > :20:52.of it, ensuring that Syrians who have been displaced are going to be
:20:53. > :20:56.part of the electorate. It outlines who will be supervising that
:20:57. > :21:00.process. Critically, amongst that, it commits the countries around the
:21:01. > :21:04.table, all of whom have different clients in this game, to bring their
:21:05. > :21:09.clients to the table. You can see the need for that. The Russians need
:21:10. > :21:12.an out, given what has happened in Turkey. I hear what you are saying,
:21:13. > :21:16.but the key thing the Prime Minister is saying is you have to have this
:21:17. > :21:21.all in place, but you cannot wait for that to be delivered, we have to
:21:22. > :21:25.shoot now, bomb now, fill all of that in later. And what we know is
:21:26. > :21:31.that the British contribution to air strikes in Syria is going to be
:21:32. > :21:34.marginal to all of this. The containment and the degrading of
:21:35. > :21:38.Isil within Syria is happening at the hands of the French, the
:21:39. > :21:43.Americans and the Russians. But why wouldn't we wait and see whether the
:21:44. > :21:46.politics fits into place? The question for the United Kingdom is
:21:47. > :21:52.whether it can be more influential on the politics as a full member of
:21:53. > :21:55.the coalition, or as a non-belligerent in Syria. That is
:21:56. > :21:59.the hypothesis, if we are a full part of the coalition, we will have
:22:00. > :22:05.more influence over that political process? That is one of the
:22:06. > :22:09.questions, and I would agree it is a marginal call. Having spoken to the
:22:10. > :22:13.Saudis, for example, and the MRI these in the course of the visit my
:22:14. > :22:20.committee has made in the last week, they are very keen that we should be
:22:21. > :22:24.in that coalition. -- the Emiratis. There is an element of our European
:22:25. > :22:28.and American allies saying, if you are not fully in this, we're not
:22:29. > :22:31.going to listen to what you have to say. There is also the zoo of
:22:32. > :22:37.solidarity with the French in the light of Paris, and our leaders feel
:22:38. > :22:40.that quite strongly. -- the issue. Since it is a marginal call, my
:22:41. > :22:45.belief is the House of Commons should give them the benefit of the
:22:46. > :22:49.doubt. Isil has got to be defeated, that is the bottom line. What
:22:50. > :22:53.happens if the judgment you are making that Vienna will lead to
:22:54. > :22:58.something does not happen, and other great morass, bombing people, a lot
:22:59. > :23:02.of enemies fighting around them? There are a lot of fundamental now
:23:03. > :23:05.widely Vienna process is going to produce something. The principal
:23:06. > :23:10.reason is that the Russians have now got themselves engaged, and they now
:23:11. > :23:15.need an out, otherwise they are going to be left in this... But
:23:16. > :23:18.there must be a risk that be and it doesn't lead anywhere, the risk of
:23:19. > :23:24.bombing first and waiting to see if it delivers. -- Vienna. The bombing
:23:25. > :23:28.is happening anyway, so the British role in the bombing is at the
:23:29. > :23:32.margins, there is a little bit of military utility for the Government
:23:33. > :23:37.to claim, which if it exists. If it is made too much of, it is an
:23:38. > :23:41.argument carrying too much weight, but there is some weight in that
:23:42. > :23:46.argument about the use of particular skills of the RAF and the Brimstone
:23:47. > :23:49.missile and intelligence acquisition kits they have got as part of the
:23:50. > :23:54.coalition. But the principle is you is about how Britain can be taken
:23:55. > :23:59.most seriously as a member of the coalition. -- the principal issue.
:24:00. > :24:06.One last one, we heard today of the 70,000 non-jihadi fighters, Free
:24:07. > :24:10.Syrian Army fighters. Could you name the leader of that group of
:24:11. > :24:15.fighters? Voice who do we phone? It is the current president of the
:24:16. > :24:20.Syrian National Coalition, that is the political body. So of one of
:24:21. > :24:24.them is breaking the Geneva Convention, we call him and say, can
:24:25. > :24:28.you deal with it? There is a process going on next week as the Saudis are
:24:29. > :24:32.holding a meeting of all the Syrian opposition groups to try to create a
:24:33. > :24:36.representative body for all these Syrian opposition groups and entered
:24:37. > :24:41.these talks with the Syrian government. That is actually another
:24:42. > :24:46.important part of the process, it shows that the political transition
:24:47. > :24:50.is active, there is a plan, and you can see a route to it because
:24:51. > :24:55.everybody's interests are in getting this done. If I can see the route
:24:56. > :24:59.and the Prime Minister can see the route, and he took a lot of time to
:25:00. > :25:02.answer my committee's questions, then my judgment is we need to give
:25:03. > :25:07.him the benefit of the doubt, because this is the bottom line - we
:25:08. > :25:11.have to take control of the territory from Isil. We are going to
:25:12. > :25:13.discuss this with some people who have local views if they agree.
:25:14. > :25:16.Crispin Blunt, thank you. We hate to call the city of Raqqa
:25:17. > :25:18.in Syria the capital of the Islamic State,
:25:19. > :25:26.as IS is not a state. by talking to those
:25:27. > :25:32.who've managed to get out. Raqqa has been one of the main
:25:33. > :25:40.targets of coalition air strikes. The city is touted by Isis
:25:41. > :25:44.as the almost Utopian capital Tonight, though, we speak to
:25:45. > :25:49.refugees who fled the city who say At first people thought that Isis
:25:50. > :25:56.was their saviour, but within a month
:25:57. > :25:59.everything changed. You can see a beheaded corpse
:26:00. > :26:04.at every other street corner. The eastern city, believed to have
:26:05. > :26:07.a population of around 400,000, was the first provincial capital
:26:08. > :26:13.to fall to initially moderate rebel forces before Isis took it over
:26:14. > :26:19.from them in late 2013. They turned the city's landmarks
:26:20. > :26:22.into symbols of brutality. The once bustling plaza
:26:23. > :26:25.around the clock tower is now Roundabouts are at times filled
:26:26. > :26:32.with the decapitated heads of opponents, and churches
:26:33. > :26:37.like this one have been taken over. The city has also been pounded
:26:38. > :26:41.by air strikes by Assad, by the western-led coalition,
:26:42. > :26:46.and most recently by the Russians. Refugees who fled the city
:26:47. > :26:48.in the last few weeks sent us videos
:26:49. > :26:51.describing their experiences. They have had to hide
:26:52. > :26:55.their identities. whereas the Russians
:26:56. > :27:01.mainly targeted civilians. Isis hide in underground shelters
:27:02. > :27:11.with their families. A few went to places like Palmyra,
:27:12. > :27:17.but others stayed in Raqqa. Isis have trumpeted their medical
:27:18. > :27:19.and education facilities, but the refugees say Isis isn't even
:27:20. > :27:28.providing them with the basics. Electricity and water were
:27:29. > :27:37.only available two hours a day But once Isis took control, we only
:27:38. > :27:41.got half an hour of electricity a day and water every
:27:42. > :27:43.couple of days. Food is really expensive and you
:27:44. > :27:46.have to wait at the bakery all day just to get
:27:47. > :27:48.a loaf of bread. Isis control large parts of
:27:49. > :27:54.the east of Syria around Raqqa, but Kurdish and moderate Syrian rebels
:27:55. > :27:56.have been advancing in the north, They now control Ain Issa,
:27:57. > :28:04.30 miles north of Raqqa, and there are rumours
:28:05. > :28:07.of an assault on Raqqa. But Kurdish forces have been accused
:28:08. > :28:11.of atrocities against local Arabs and are unlikely to be welcomed
:28:12. > :28:16.in the city. We're between a rock
:28:17. > :28:21.and a hard place. they've stepped up their control
:28:22. > :28:26.of the city. We were told it is now much
:28:27. > :28:29.harder to leave Raqqa and hardly anyone
:28:30. > :28:32.can use the internet. How Isis rule their capital
:28:33. > :28:35.could prove their undoing, but no-one knows
:28:36. > :29:05.who will replace them. So how might life there advance
:29:06. > :29:07.if Isil were displaced? the Chief of Staff to the President
:29:08. > :29:12.of the Syrian Opposition Council, from Moscow, Katya Mavrenkova,
:29:13. > :29:14.an editor at Russia Today. And here in the studio
:29:15. > :29:16.is Hassan Hassan, author of Isis:
:29:17. > :29:23.Inside the Army of Terror. First of all, what is your view
:29:24. > :29:30.about the decision Britain is making? Well, there is a special
:29:31. > :29:36.importance for a British role in Syria, because the UK supports the
:29:37. > :29:42.struggle for freedom and democracy. That is why the Syrian people, I
:29:43. > :29:50.think that they will welcome British involvement in Syria. Catania, how
:29:51. > :29:56.about you? Well, if you expect me to speak on behalf of of the
:29:57. > :30:00.government, they have made it clear they would welcome for efforts to
:30:01. > :30:04.fight Isil, whether it would be the US, the UK, and the Russian
:30:05. > :30:11.government has been calling for a grand coalition to fight against
:30:12. > :30:17.Isis. OK, agreement there, Hassan, are you in favour? I think the UK
:30:18. > :30:21.should be involved in the campaign, firstly because it helps the UK to
:30:22. > :30:25.be more involved on the ground, and that helps in practical things like
:30:26. > :30:35.gathering intelligence, but also to be involved, be part of, you know,
:30:36. > :30:49.any solution, any political solution to the conflict. So you all agree
:30:50. > :30:54.that we should get involved. Do you think if that meant Assad staying in
:30:55. > :31:00.power for a few extra months you would be happy with that? If Assad
:31:01. > :31:05.stays in power, no problem in Syria would be solved. The war will
:31:06. > :31:10.continue. Assad is actually the start of this problem, that he waged
:31:11. > :31:17.a war against the people and he continues with that war until now.
:31:18. > :31:25.Assad also is buying oil from Isis, helping the finance of Isis.
:31:26. > :31:36.Yesterday the US Treasury department made sanctions against some of the
:31:37. > :31:42.regime figures that they are financing Isis by buying oil from
:31:43. > :31:47.them. Assad is a major cause of the humanitarian problem in Syria, as
:31:48. > :31:51.well as the rise and expansion of Isis. The Syrian people themselves,
:31:52. > :31:58.they cannot fight Isis. They are the boots on the ground actually. They
:31:59. > :32:01.cannotifies Isis effectively unless they protect themselves and they are
:32:02. > :32:06.also protected from the Assad bombing against them. OK, so let me
:32:07. > :32:12.interrupt there. Assad has to go. You think Assad has to go. What
:32:13. > :32:18.about Russia, Katia. Is Russia going to be able to sit down with Monze,
:32:19. > :32:21.are and come to some kind of agreement, or not, on what you have
:32:22. > :32:26.just heard? Before answering that question I would like to go back
:32:27. > :32:29.briefly to your previous question. As I said, Russia would welcome
:32:30. > :32:35.joining efforts with anyone who would like to fight against Isis.
:32:36. > :32:39.Although Roisin assists that bombing other countries like, say, Syria and
:32:40. > :32:44.Iraq should only be happening with the permission of the Government in
:32:45. > :32:50.those countries. As you know, Russia is carrying out its campaign in
:32:51. > :32:54.Syria after the invitation of the legitimate Syrian Government, Bashar
:32:55. > :32:59.al-Assad, whereas the US is doing it without the permission of the
:33:00. > :33:02.Government whatsoever. They would welcome only if they got an
:33:03. > :33:06.agreement from the Syrian Government. As for Bashar al-Assad
:33:07. > :33:10.staying in power, in contrast to what the West has been accusing
:33:11. > :33:14.Russia of, supporting President Assad and trying to keep him in
:33:15. > :33:18.power, Russia has been saying all along that it is not Russia's goal
:33:19. > :33:22.to keep Bashar al-Assad in power. Russia has been saying it is up to
:33:23. > :33:28.the Syrians to decide their own future. Like the previous speaker
:33:29. > :33:33.was saying, there is a fight against Isis currently going on in Syria.
:33:34. > :33:37.Just like President Putin said, combining efforts with those forces
:33:38. > :33:41.who are fighting Isis on the ground is key to all those coalition
:33:42. > :33:45.efforts. Right, everybody agrees, combining the forces is very
:33:46. > :33:51.important, but it is whether you can agree on the terms on which you are
:33:52. > :33:55.going to do it. Hassan, do you think the Vienna process can get these two
:33:56. > :34:02.to agree enough that we get a joint Army, if you like? I don't think so,
:34:03. > :34:06.and I think the disproportional focus on the Vienna talks and a
:34:07. > :34:12.political process to deal with this situation in Damascus is in many
:34:13. > :34:17.ways a waste of time. Because we are wasting so many opportunities of
:34:18. > :34:20.doing things on the ground elsewhere in the country that could engineer a
:34:21. > :34:26.situation... Sorry, who on the ground? Who is going to do it on the
:34:27. > :34:37.ground if it is not the Syrian Government Army and the Free Syrian
:34:38. > :34:44.Army? There are plenty of opportunities. I had a Skype call
:34:45. > :34:49.with one of the commanders who was driven out of eastern Syria because
:34:50. > :34:53.of Isis. Instead of going to hang out in Turkey or go as refugees
:34:54. > :34:58.elsewhere outside the country, what are they doing now? They are
:34:59. > :35:02.fighting Isis on the front lines in it lip, Aleppo and southern Syria.
:35:03. > :35:07.These are the forces that you can work with. There are plenty of those
:35:08. > :35:14.forces. OK, that's a different plan from the one Crispin Blunt was
:35:15. > :35:17.telling us about. Monze, are, this conflict seemed to have been dogged
:35:18. > :35:24.by the fact that there hasn't been agreement on who is the worst. Who
:35:25. > :35:30.is the worst enemy for you, Assad or ice is? They are both committing
:35:31. > :35:36.crimes against humanity. They are both committing war crimes. And they
:35:37. > :35:40.are both killing the Syrian people and oppressing the Syrian people
:35:41. > :35:46.every day. So for the Syrians they are both the enemies and think have
:35:47. > :35:51.to be destroyed for the Syrian people. But the biggest fight the
:35:52. > :35:54.Syrian people are having now is with Assad. Assad is attacking
:35:55. > :36:01.everywhere, bombing the cities, bombing the villages. They are the
:36:02. > :36:05.Iranian Revolutionary Guard and militia are helping on the ground.
:36:06. > :36:11.The Russians are helping. By the way the Russians are not bombing Isis
:36:12. > :36:18.but the moderate rebels. They are helping Assad. So this war, the war
:36:19. > :36:21.that Assad is waging against the people is very oppressive on the
:36:22. > :36:28.people much more than what Isis is doing. As for the enemies, they are
:36:29. > :36:32.both enemies and they have to go. I'm so sorry, I'm afraid we are out
:36:33. > :36:37.of time. I thank you all very much indeed. We are going to see how
:36:38. > :36:39.complicated it is to get political agreement.
:36:40. > :36:41.We've heard a lot of argument this evening.
:36:42. > :36:44.But a reminder now of how the consequences of the suffering
:36:45. > :36:47.A second charter plane full of vulnerable refugees
:36:48. > :36:49.arrived today, this time in Newcastle.
:36:50. > :36:52.David Cameron has offered 20,000 places over the next five years -
:36:53. > :36:54.we are still early in the process of taking people in.
:36:55. > :36:57.You may or may not know that Newsnight is following the fortunes
:36:58. > :37:01.Katie Razzall went to Jordan to meet one of the families who
:37:02. > :37:04.reached Newcastle today, and she's also caught up with another family
:37:05. > :37:32.It's their first week in a strange many places to visit. New tastes,
:37:33. > :37:40.new smells. For a family who fled Syria for Jordan and now have a new
:37:41. > :37:45.home in Scotland. Tar-tan. Tartan. Having first met the family as they
:37:46. > :37:49.prepared to leave Jordan, 000 they are on British soil, and here on the
:37:50. > :38:03.Scottish streets what little English they know is being tested. Is it a
:38:04. > :38:07.relief to be here? For now to protect them the Scottish council is
:38:08. > :38:17.supporting the family won't let us film them at home. So we took them
:38:18. > :38:22.on their first day trip to Glasgow. They want to record everything. A
:38:23. > :38:27.family all too aware of their luck. Deemed vulnerable enough for
:38:28. > :38:52.resettlement by UNHCR, Britain offered refuge.
:38:53. > :39:00.Nourallah needs a jaw operation. It was shadow nerd a rocket attack on
:39:01. > :39:08.their Syrian home. Laith and Bayhas are his nephews. Their father died
:39:09. > :39:12.in Syria. This family's life won't begin properly until residency
:39:13. > :39:18.papers come through. Then school, doctors appointments and language
:39:19. > :39:25.classes will begin. What did you learn? Ship... Monkey. Crocodile.
:39:26. > :39:30.But even a good day is tingeed with sadness. It is complicated but her
:39:31. > :39:43.first children by her first marriage are stuck in Syria.
:39:44. > :39:51.We took the family to a Glasgow institution, the ubiquitous
:39:52. > :39:54.restaurant for Scottish fare, in line with their religious
:39:55. > :40:05.traditions. Vegetarian haggis there. When you first arrived here, what
:40:06. > :40:19.struck you? How does it compare with your old home in Jordan? Even in the
:40:20. > :40:24.safety of the UK, the adult don't want to talk about Syrian politics,
:40:25. > :40:28.about air strikes or regime change. Fearful for relatives still in
:40:29. > :40:32.Syria. But I wanted to know how the Paris attacks and changing attitudes
:40:33. > :41:04.to refugees affected them as they left Jordan.
:41:05. > :41:11.When we spoke in Amman, I remember you said to me, probably you
:41:12. > :41:15.wouldn't be able to go back to Syria and that Britain would be your new
:41:16. > :41:20.home. First impressions, it is early days, but do you still feel that
:41:21. > :41:38.this is a place you'll be able to call home now you're here?
:41:39. > :41:43.Many Syrian refugees don't want to leave the Middle East. But five
:41:44. > :41:48.years of war means resettlement is their only option. Like another
:41:49. > :42:00.Syrian family, I met in Jordan, who arrived in the UK today. Marwan, the
:42:01. > :42:12.head of the household, showed me around their Jordanian home. They
:42:13. > :42:18.had so little, no money for medicine for Marwan's health problems, or to
:42:19. > :42:28.pay for school. Goodbye... Goodbye. One boy... One boy. Nour is eight,
:42:29. > :42:33.his sister is partially deaf, and she is 16. The boys, Omar and
:42:34. > :43:23.Mohammed, they fled their home west of Damascus more than two years ago.
:43:24. > :43:57.Despite it all, until recently they still believed they would go home.
:43:58. > :44:03.They may never see Syria again. But as they left Jordan for Newcastle
:44:04. > :44:08.this morning there was optimism too for a better future. We hope to meet
:44:09. > :44:19.them again soon as they begin their new life. We will be staying in
:44:20. > :44:21.touch with the families. Emily will be in the chair tomorrow, Black
:44:22. > :44:35.Friday. Have a very good night. Good evening. After a mild day on
:44:36. > :44:38.Thursday, Friday brings us a transition to much cooler conditions
:44:39. > :44:41.from the north-west. We've got this active cold front pushing in
:44:42. > :44:42.initially across Northern