:00:09. > :00:13.The debate has run for about 11 hours today,
:00:14. > :00:19.We will bring you the result of the vote on air strikes in Syria.
:00:20. > :00:21.So many questions have been asked today,
:00:22. > :00:25.We will be speaking to the Foreign Secretary and getting lots of
:00:26. > :00:30.As MPs emerge from the chamber, I'll be crunching the numbers
:00:31. > :00:32.What does this mean for military action?
:00:33. > :00:34.And what do the politics of the vote tell us
:00:35. > :00:46.What do British Muslims think about the possibility of air strikes in
:00:47. > :00:55.Syria, I have been speaking with people in high Wycombe.
:00:56. > :01:03.Good evening from Westminster where the results of that key vote,
:01:04. > :01:08.on Britiain's military intervention in Syria have just come through.
:01:09. > :01:21.397 votes, in favour of David Cameron's argument, 223 against. 223
:01:22. > :01:35.against, but winning by the upper end of what we imagine. That is the
:01:36. > :01:38.upper end of their expectation, Labour whips were saying it might be
:01:39. > :01:43.as high as 50 to 60, what the prime ministers spokesman has said, it
:01:44. > :01:47.looked like it may have picked people off, saying that anybody
:01:48. > :01:51.opposed to it was a terrorist sympathiser, but fiercely that has
:01:52. > :01:55.not happened, we are going to look at the Commons chamber right now.
:01:56. > :01:58.David Cameron told us he was not going to bring this vote unless he
:01:59. > :02:02.was certain to win it, that is exactly what has happened, what they
:02:03. > :02:06.have done is limited the rebellion on the Tory side to about ten, last
:02:07. > :02:10.time around it was 30, they have reduced that. They have got the
:02:11. > :02:16.Liberal Democrats, they have the day you p, and to get up to 397 they
:02:17. > :02:20.have got 50 to 60 Labour MPs. When we were talking about this on Monday
:02:21. > :02:28.night, we were trying to make sense of what that number could be. -- the
:02:29. > :02:32.DUP. There was protection projections of over 100... 50 to 60,
:02:33. > :02:35.internally, is what whips were saying, and what else has been
:02:36. > :02:41.suggested, the speech by Hilary Benn, very powerful, a lot of people
:02:42. > :02:44.inside the Commons chamber, they gave him a standing ovation, he has
:02:45. > :02:49.taken a different perspective from his leader. That speech by Hilary
:02:50. > :02:55.Benn may have persuaded as many as 15 MPs. In the last ten, five
:02:56. > :02:59.minutes of the debate. I have spoken with Labour MPs, senior figures, who
:03:00. > :03:05.were going to vote in favour, who did not. So actually, the reports I
:03:06. > :03:10.was getting earlier in the day, looks like something has shifted
:03:11. > :03:14.later this evening. What about the extensions, there were people, for
:03:15. > :03:18.instance, Joel Cox, who thought... The significant thing, the Prime
:03:19. > :03:29.Minister has got the numbers he had, but somebody who has said this, Jo
:03:30. > :03:33.Cox, very informed, she said she did not been the Prime Minister made the
:03:34. > :03:37.case, a lot of people said they were not won over by the specifics of
:03:38. > :03:42.what he had to say. -- Jo Cox. Even so, he got the numbers he got. We
:03:43. > :03:48.can take you to a dramatic moment that was coming through the Commons,
:03:49. > :03:56.a couple of moments ago. Order, order.
:03:57. > :04:19.397, as we have said, 223 against. Talk us through some of the parties,
:04:20. > :04:25.much more clear-cut, the SNP, whipped vote, they were all against
:04:26. > :04:29.as far as we know. The Liberal Democrats have a strong proud
:04:30. > :04:35.tradition, particularly with Iraq, in 2003, Tim Farren stood up and
:04:36. > :04:40.said that he was going to be leading his party in supporting strikes, he
:04:41. > :04:44.stood up today and said that, I know that Labour MPs were persuaded by
:04:45. > :04:47.Tim Farren, Tim Farren gave Labour MPs the reason and permission to go
:04:48. > :04:53.over and support the Prime Minister. It is a very pathetic picture. In
:04:54. > :04:59.the fullness of time, the role played by Tim Fallon is going to be
:05:00. > :05:07.very interesting. I think that if we go back to you, we have a sense of
:05:08. > :05:18.the numbers as a whole. -- Tim Farron.
:05:19. > :05:20.Six RAF Typhoons and a couple of extra Tornados
:05:21. > :05:24.From that, you could say this is a military decision
:05:25. > :05:27.of a modest kind, we are already involved in Iraq anyway, and already
:05:28. > :05:32.But that Britain is taking a decision to bomb a country, without
:05:33. > :05:34.the consent of its government, does make this an important moment.
:05:35. > :05:37.All the more important given the mixed track record
:05:38. > :05:40.I'm here with three guests, military historian, journalist and
:05:41. > :05:42.writer, Max Hastings, Times defence correspondent, Deborah Haynes,
:05:43. > :05:52.Perhaps a bigger majority than you would have expected? You would not
:05:53. > :05:54.be surprised, the Prime Minister has staked an enormous amount, it is an
:05:55. > :05:59.enormous disappointment to me that it was hijacked about the soul of
:06:00. > :06:02.the Labour Party, rather than the merits of what is happening, the key
:06:03. > :06:07.thing that Jimmy has not been said loudly enough, that this is not what
:06:08. > :06:10.the Prime Minister... He said it is effective action to keep streets
:06:11. > :06:14.safe, it is nothing of the sort, this is a political gesture, it may
:06:15. > :06:18.be necessary but it is a small political gesture and rather a
:06:19. > :06:22.dangerous one. Briefly, the debate, over the course of the week, since
:06:23. > :06:26.the Prime Minister made his statement, feels like ages ago, only
:06:27. > :06:30.last Thursday, which weighed you think the argument has gone? Have
:06:31. > :06:34.you heard anything to persuade you? A lot of people in the country
:06:35. > :06:38.except the fact that something terrible has happened in Paris and
:06:39. > :06:43.something must be done but since 2001, we have had far too many
:06:44. > :06:46.gestures in response to situations. Far too little analysis of what are
:06:47. > :06:50.the objectives and are they attainable? I do not believe that
:06:51. > :06:58.these debates have seen the questions answered or asked. Do you
:06:59. > :07:02.feel the debate has in no way answered those questions that people
:07:03. > :07:07.were asking days ago, months ago, have we got answers? It is not
:07:08. > :07:12.answer the question, however, it is dangerous to allow ourselves to be
:07:13. > :07:16.caught up in the emotion of past disastrous campaigns, and use that
:07:17. > :07:20.as a justification not to act this time, when there is clearly a huge
:07:21. > :07:26.threat. There is a danger of doing something for the sake of doing
:07:27. > :07:30.something. But I think we are at a point, we need to be a part of this
:07:31. > :07:34.coalition properly, completely in all completely out, the situation we
:07:35. > :07:39.have been in for the last year, half in, half out, that is illogical, as
:07:40. > :07:52.the government says I welcome this decision. You said you would have
:07:53. > :07:56.abstained. This was a diplomatic gesture, not just political, they
:07:57. > :08:00.can have a place in sound strategy, I was struck by how many MPs were
:08:01. > :08:05.focused, understandably so, on standing with France, and on the
:08:06. > :08:09.importance of Britain being a sound reliable, dependable ally. Of
:08:10. > :08:14.course, that is not an entirely unreasonable concern, but there was
:08:15. > :08:19.a central question throughout these 11 hours, and the last week, who is
:08:20. > :08:24.going to retake Raqqa and other ices held cities? That question, we are
:08:25. > :08:35.still looking for the full answer to that question. -- Isis-held cities.
:08:36. > :08:38.We have heard the government strategy... We have heard they are
:08:39. > :08:42.determined to get rid of Bashar al-Assad and they want Iraq and
:08:43. > :08:46.Syria to be unitary state, many do not believe that is possible, and
:08:47. > :08:53.they want to crush Isis, all of us want to crush Isis, but the
:08:54. > :08:56.objections are not moral or legal, they are, can what they are
:08:57. > :09:00.proposing to do work? You to share some of those worries. What is
:09:01. > :09:04.interesting is how important the Vienna process, the diplomacy was,
:09:05. > :09:08.in making it possible for the Prime Minister to argue that there is a
:09:09. > :09:18.diplomatic end in sight which may allow a transitional government of
:09:19. > :09:24.Armed Forces to take this on. How long is this military intervention
:09:25. > :09:31.going to last? My goodness... Years! Potentially, depends upon what
:09:32. > :09:35.happens on the ground, if we have action on the ground, it could be
:09:36. > :09:41.over in months. 11 hour debate in the Commons, at times rather noisy,
:09:42. > :09:43.speeches often interrupted by interventions but nobody can say
:09:44. > :09:55.that the audience were not deployed. There is a simple question at the
:09:56. > :09:59.heart of the debate today, we face a fundamental threat to security, Isis
:10:00. > :10:03.have brutally murdered Ridgers hostages, inspired the worst
:10:04. > :10:09.terrorist attack against British people since 7/7 on the beaches of
:10:10. > :10:13.Tunisia and plodded atrocity after atrocity on streets at home, since
:10:14. > :10:17.November last year, we have foiled no more than seven different plots
:10:18. > :10:22.against our people, so this threat is very real. -- plotted. The
:10:23. > :10:25.question is this, do we work with allies to degrade and destroy this
:10:26. > :10:28.threat, do we go after these terrorists in their heartlands, from
:10:29. > :10:32.where they are plotting to kill British people? Do we sit back and
:10:33. > :10:36.wait for them to attack us? VOICEOVER: Good intentions were
:10:37. > :10:40.ruined last night when the Prime Minister himself branded those
:10:41. > :10:45.opposed to air strikes " terrorist sympathisers". If we got up and
:10:46. > :10:49.said, whoever does not walk with me through the division lobby is not a
:10:50. > :10:50.terrorist sympathiser... He would improve his standing in this house,
:10:51. > :10:58.enormously. I'm very happy to repeat what he has
:10:59. > :11:06.said, able who voted... They do so with an... Dustup, the opposition,
:11:07. > :11:11.and... Is it wrong for us in Westminster to see a problem, pass a
:11:12. > :11:16.motion, drop bombs and pretend we are doing something to solve it?
:11:17. > :11:24.That is what we did in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya... I ask the question of
:11:25. > :11:31.the house, has terrorism increased or decreased as a result of all of
:11:32. > :11:38.that? Conservative Rebels zoned in on one claim in particular. What is
:11:39. > :11:42.stopping these moderates, once the common enemy, once they have been
:11:43. > :11:48.somehow miraculously told to swing around, stop fighting Bashar
:11:49. > :11:53.al-Assad and take on Daesh, what is stopping them from splintering into
:11:54. > :11:58.100, or even 1000 militias, as we saw in Libya. One appeal was made
:11:59. > :12:03.time and time again, that France had asked for help. Our French allies
:12:04. > :12:07.have exquisitely asked for such support, and I ask the house to
:12:08. > :12:13.consider how we would feel, and what we would say, if what took place in
:12:14. > :12:20.Paris had happened in London, if we had explicitly asked France for
:12:21. > :12:23.support, and France had refused? Many made the humanitarian case,
:12:24. > :12:27.perhaps the most interesting were the Liberal Democrats, who so
:12:28. > :12:32.famously opposed bombing Iraq in 2003. I cannot stand in this house
:12:33. > :12:36.and castigate the Prime Minister for not taking enough refugees and for
:12:37. > :12:40.Britain not standing as tall as it should do in the world and opening
:12:41. > :12:44.its arms to the desperate as we have done so for many decades and
:12:45. > :12:48.throughout history, if we do not also do everything in our power to
:12:49. > :12:51.eradicate that which is the source of these people fleeing from that
:12:52. > :12:55.terrorist up what many Labour MPs stood up to challenge their leader,
:12:56. > :13:01.not only for opposing the strike but also the actions of his support
:13:02. > :13:06.group, Momentum. Frankly I wish I had the self-righteous attitude of
:13:07. > :13:10.the finger jabbing representatives of our new and Chindit type of
:13:11. > :13:14.politics... LAUGHTER Will no doubt soon be contacting
:13:15. > :13:20.those of us who support this motion tonight! The debate is now done, for
:13:21. > :13:22.many bespoke with, the most difficult decision they have ever
:13:23. > :13:25.had to take while they were in Parliament.
:13:26. > :13:29.The Foreign Secretary is down in Westminster and joins us now.
:13:30. > :13:36.Good evening. Rather than rehearsing the debate, I think it might be
:13:37. > :13:40.worth asking you what constitutes success or failure in the campaign
:13:41. > :13:45.we are about to embark on? Would you consider it a failure if we were
:13:46. > :13:50.still there in four years' time, potentially? I hope it won't be four
:13:51. > :13:56.years, but I caution it isn't going to be months. I have said this
:13:57. > :14:02.evening in the debate that while we are using air strikes to contain and
:14:03. > :14:06.degrade Isil in Raqqa, we will be pursuing a political track, trying
:14:07. > :14:11.to resolve the Syrian civil war. It is only when those two things come
:14:12. > :14:16.together, when the degradation of Isil in Raqqa and the creation of a
:14:17. > :14:22.transitional Syrian government are both happening that we can then
:14:23. > :14:25.actually utilise the forces that are currently fighting each other, the
:14:26. > :14:31.Syrian government forces, the Syrian opposition forces, the Kurdish
:14:32. > :14:35.forces, and get them turned around facing towards Isil and able to
:14:36. > :14:41.finish off the job in Raqqa, reclaiming what will then be the
:14:42. > :14:46.territory of the new free Syria from the evil empire of Daesh. Give us a
:14:47. > :14:49.sense of your timescale on how long you think it might take to reach
:14:50. > :14:53.that political settlement? Would it be a failure if there was no
:14:54. > :15:00.political settlement of that kind say within 18 months? Well, that's
:15:01. > :15:08.the target that we've set out. We have said six months to create a
:15:09. > :15:10.transitional government, 18 months to internationally supervised
:15:11. > :15:15.elections. That is an ambitious target. It is the one that all 19
:15:16. > :15:20.country, including Russia, including Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, China,
:15:21. > :15:27.as well as the US, France and Britain have all agreed to work to a
:15:28. > :15:32.target of 18 months to an election supervised by the UN that will
:15:33. > :15:36.include Syrians in the diaspora, those who have been displaced into
:15:37. > :15:40.refugee camps, they must have a right to vote in this election. If
:15:41. > :15:44.it doesn't happen, or if it has no prospect of happening after 18
:15:45. > :15:50.months, or two years, do we just stay there and just carry on bombing
:15:51. > :15:54.Raqqa until something else happens? What is the plan there? We are
:15:55. > :16:00.determined to make this happen. And all the powers involved, including
:16:01. > :16:04.Russia, want to see Isil degraded and ultimately destroyed. Isil
:16:05. > :16:08.represents a huge threat to all of us. We are doing two things with
:16:09. > :16:13.these air strikes. We are delivering an immediate benefit by degrading
:16:14. > :16:18.Isil's ability to mount external attacks, to plan and execute
:16:19. > :16:22.external attacks, so just starting those air strikes, even before we
:16:23. > :16:27.get anywhere near a ground assault on Raqqa will improve the safety of
:16:28. > :16:31.Britain, of France, of Europe, and of British and French people and
:16:32. > :16:37.others wherever they are in the world. We have heard that. You must
:16:38. > :16:40.have some Plan B if the ground force doesn't materialise and there isn't
:16:41. > :16:44.a political settlement of the type you are talking about, and the
:16:45. > :16:50.decision will then be we either stay or we leave. Can you imagine us
:16:51. > :16:57.leaving while IS still control Raqqa? I cannot believe us stopping
:16:58. > :17:01.air strikes against Daesh in Raqqa for so long as they represent a
:17:02. > :17:05.threat to us, a threat to British citizens and a threat to the UK
:17:06. > :17:09.homeland, no, we would have to continue with those air strikes.
:17:10. > :17:13.Look, there will be a political settlement in Syria. I sincerely
:17:14. > :17:17.hope that it is achieved within the timescale that we have set out at
:17:18. > :17:22.Vienna. If it isn't, that won't mean we give up and go home. We have got
:17:23. > :17:26.to find a political solution to the civil war in Syria. There is no
:17:27. > :17:31.military solution. There can only be a political solution to that civil
:17:32. > :17:35.war. As we stand on the eve of Britain entering this arena, what is
:17:36. > :17:41.it that is going to make you lose sleep? What are you most afraid of?
:17:42. > :17:45.I'm most afraid of the threat that Isil represents to our security here
:17:46. > :17:50.in Britain, to our citizens travelling abroad. That plane over
:17:51. > :17:54.Sharm el-Sheikh could have been a British plane. The attacks on the
:17:55. > :18:00.streets of Paris could so easily have been attacks on the streets of
:18:01. > :18:05.London. If Syrian forces, who you hope, opposition forces, who you
:18:06. > :18:11.hope will join the assault on Isis, if they say we will join that
:18:12. > :18:16.assault, but we need you to protect us against al-Assad, will you give
:18:17. > :18:21.them that protection, no-fly zones? Let me be clear about this. The time
:18:22. > :18:26.for a ground assault against Raqqa will be when a transitional
:18:27. > :18:31.government is in place in Syria. All these people that we need to focus
:18:32. > :18:36.on Isil are busy fighting each other in the civil war, the rump of the
:18:37. > :18:39.Syrian Army, the Free Syrian Army, the opposition forces, the Kurds,
:18:40. > :18:48.they are all engaged in a civil war. We have to settle that civil war. We
:18:49. > :18:51.have got to get those people working alongside each other, not
:18:52. > :18:57.necessarily together, but alongside each other, to reclaim the territory
:18:58. > :19:02.of their country, Syria, from these occupiers of Isil. There won't be
:19:03. > :19:07.any ground offensive that only - on this scenario - it doesn't involve
:19:08. > :19:11.the 70,000 opposition forces. You are talking about a political
:19:12. > :19:15.settlement that leads to the final assault? That is what we have always
:19:16. > :19:19.been talking about. We are degrading Isil now. We are preventing them
:19:20. > :19:25.from attacking us by keeping them under pressure now. To finish Isil
:19:26. > :19:28.off, we have to finish the Syrian civil war. We have been clear about
:19:29. > :19:32.that. The two things go hand in hand. So long as al-Assad is there
:19:33. > :19:36.and fighting this civil war, we will not be able to finish Isil off
:19:37. > :19:43.because the opposition in Syria will be trying to fight two battles at
:19:44. > :19:47.once. One last quick one. Do you respect the people who voted against
:19:48. > :19:51.the Government tonight and do you regret the talk of terrorist
:19:52. > :19:55.sympathisers and the like? I have said in the debate today that I
:19:56. > :20:01.recognise that there are people in the House of Commons with
:20:02. > :20:06.strongly-held, long-established pacifist views who do not believe in
:20:07. > :20:10.military action in any case. I believe for many of them, I believe
:20:11. > :20:14.for the Leader of the Opposition, that is a genuinely and
:20:15. > :20:19.sincerely-held view and I respect that. But there is a difference
:20:20. > :20:23.between an individual back bench member holding a conscientious view
:20:24. > :20:27.on something and the Leader of the Opposition seeking to impose that
:20:28. > :20:31.view on a great political party that aspires to be a party of Government.
:20:32. > :20:37.That is a very different thing. Thank you very much indeed. The
:20:38. > :20:41.panel here in the studio. Any comment on that interview and I
:20:42. > :20:44.suppose what the endgame is and how we get out of this mess? Half of
:20:45. > :20:48.what the Foreign Secretary said seemed sensible. The bits that we
:20:49. > :20:52.all have to be cautious about, I cannot accept what he said that our
:20:53. > :20:58.bombing in Syria is going to make the streets of Britain safer. This
:20:59. > :21:02.is nonsense. But also, the big question which is are the Russians
:21:03. > :21:06.on side? Nobody mentioned al-Assad in that conversation. Are the
:21:07. > :21:12.Russians on side for this great new transitional government? So far, I
:21:13. > :21:16.think we have heard from the Russians, the British Government
:21:17. > :21:19.keeps telling us they are. I haven't heard anything from Moscow that the
:21:20. > :21:25.Russians agree that al-Assad has to go. It is massively complicated.
:21:26. > :21:31.There are no easy answers. The understatement of the night! The
:21:32. > :21:36.problem is that the people who are against military action fixate on
:21:37. > :21:40.the problems and understandably so. I just think that bemoaning the fact
:21:41. > :21:45.it is complicated is not a solution and I think at least now that we
:21:46. > :21:49.have had a decision, we will be a full part of the coalition that
:21:50. > :21:56.gives us greater influence to try and make something good come out of
:21:57. > :22:00.all this chaos. Shashank Joshi, I thought the first rule was you were
:22:01. > :22:06.not meant to go into war unless you could see your way out of it? In '91
:22:07. > :22:11.we were still there when we invaded in 2003 in Iraq. I'm sceptical of
:22:12. > :22:16.Phil Hammond's confidence that we will be done in four years, given
:22:17. > :22:19.how much he is relying on a successful political process. I am
:22:20. > :22:23.delighted he's managed to get Iran and Saudi Arabia around the same
:22:24. > :22:26.table, that is fantastic, a real achievement. If you listen what Iran
:22:27. > :22:30.says when it is at the table, if you consider the fact that the
:22:31. > :22:33.opposition groups are not at that table, Turkey and Russia are at
:22:34. > :22:40.loggerheads after the downing of the jet, I'm more sceptical that the
:22:41. > :22:47.transition will operate as smoothly as he hopes. It is complicated. We
:22:48. > :22:56.can go to the Commons, we will talk to - I tell you what, the debate in
:22:57. > :22:58.recent days has been a painful one for the Labour Party.
:22:59. > :22:59.If Jeremy Corbyn believes in anything,
:23:00. > :23:01.it is in voting down military action of the kind now proposed.
:23:02. > :23:02.And he has party members on his side.
:23:03. > :23:07.Well, because we've had confirmation today that tens of his MPs have
:23:08. > :23:11.taken a different view, including his own Shadow Foreign Secretary.
:23:12. > :23:13.And the debate today was a moment for the non-Corbyn wing
:23:14. > :23:18.of the party - including some of the big beasts - to have their say.
:23:19. > :23:26.Our French allies have explicitly asked us for such support and I
:23:27. > :23:30.invite the House to consider how we would feel, and what we would say,
:23:31. > :23:36.if what took place in Paris had happened in London, if we had asked
:23:37. > :23:43.France for support and France had refused. I wish I had the
:23:44. > :23:48.self-righteous certitude of the finger-jabbing representatives of
:23:49. > :23:52.our new and kinder type of politics who will no doubt soon be contacting
:23:53. > :23:58.those of us who support this motion tonight. I think some of the people
:23:59. > :24:01.on the front bench now, and the people who are heckling behind me,
:24:02. > :24:06.need to think carefully about the way in which they have conducted
:24:07. > :24:12.themselves over recent weeks. We need to do better than this to be a
:24:13. > :24:17.credible official opposition. Some of the voices in support of the war.
:24:18. > :24:23.We can talk to Diane Abbott, who was not among those supporting the war.
:24:24. > :24:28.Good evening. I know Margaret Beckett is with you. Margaret
:24:29. > :24:35.Beckett gave a barnstorming speech in favour of the war, people thought
:24:36. > :24:38.it was quite decisive. Can you be friends with Margaret Beckett now
:24:39. > :24:44.this vote is over? Of course, we have known each other for many
:24:45. > :24:47.years. Hilary Benn made a magnificent speech, it was just
:24:48. > :24:51.wrong. The most telling thing about this debate is, at the end of the
:24:52. > :24:54.debate, although ever since Paris there has been a drum beat for war
:24:55. > :24:56.in the media, the vast majority of the Labour Party, the majority of
:24:57. > :25:00.Labour MPs, and a substantial number the Labour Party, the majority of
:25:01. > :25:07.of Shadow Cabinet members, are in the same position as Jeremy. I think
:25:08. > :25:13.that public opinion very soon will tire of Cameron's war. Months after
:25:14. > :25:17.an election, you can get away with this kind of division, in which the
:25:18. > :25:21.Foreign Secretary and the Shadow Foreign Secretary, and the leader
:25:22. > :25:24.are disagreeing. If this was months before a General Election, you
:25:25. > :25:29.wouldn't be able to get away with this, would you? First of all, I
:25:30. > :25:37.would argue the party as a whole is not divided. The party as a whole,
:25:38. > :25:40.members, the NEC, MPs take Jeremy's position. This has been a tragic
:25:41. > :25:44.vote tonight. We should be thinking of the people of Raqqa when those
:25:45. > :25:49.bombers fly over them in the next 24 hours. To be honest, it doesn't seem
:25:50. > :25:53.credible to say the party isn't divided. Very senior people in the
:25:54. > :25:58.party clearly are divided and the members are divided. It may not be
:25:59. > :26:03.split down the middle. You have a big wing who are not reconciled to
:26:04. > :26:08.the point of view you have on this. I think you will find that the
:26:09. > :26:19.majority, the vast majority of party members, and the majority of MPs,
:26:20. > :26:21.support Jeremy's position. The thing they aren't reconciled to is the
:26:22. > :26:27.fact their candidate lost the election. You are disagreeing on
:26:28. > :26:31.something that I guess is one of the things on which you feel most
:26:32. > :26:35.strongly, is that correct? What is difficult for me is journalists want
:26:36. > :26:45.to make this a story about Labour splits rather than what I think has
:26:46. > :26:49.been a very tragic decision tonight. Diane Abbott, would you encourage
:26:50. > :26:53.members of the party, or members of pressure groups within the party,
:26:54. > :26:59.there is one called Momentum, would you encourage them to punish the
:27:00. > :27:04.MPs, like Margaret Beckett who supported today's Government motion?
:27:05. > :27:07.Of course not. That would be absurd. Jeremy deliberately allowed a free
:27:08. > :27:11.vote so people should feel free to voice their opinion and vote the way
:27:12. > :27:14.they wanted. There will be no question of anybody being punished
:27:15. > :27:18.or marginalised because of the way they spoke or voted tonight. I'm
:27:19. > :27:26.sure many will be very pleased to hear that. Thank you. Let's go back
:27:27. > :27:38.to Emily on the Green. I have a couple more noes here. You
:27:39. > :27:42.tabled that amendment against the vote. The numbers stacked up against
:27:43. > :27:45.you, but what was the message you took away from that? The message was
:27:46. > :27:51.the House of Commons is divided on this issue. OK, we lost by 150, but
:27:52. > :27:56.there was still 200-plus who said we don't think there is a comprehensive
:27:57. > :28:01.strategy here, we have real concerns about the so-called 70,000 moderates
:28:02. > :28:05.that are going to be the land force, and we have many questions
:28:06. > :28:11.unanswered about things like absence of challenging Daesh on social
:28:12. > :28:14.media, on business and financial interests so still lots of questions
:28:15. > :28:17.unanswered. The task for the Government is to put this strategy
:28:18. > :28:24.into place because I'm not convinced they have got it at the moment.
:28:25. > :28:30.You have been here before with numbers that may not have spelt the
:28:31. > :28:34.end of the story, Libya, curious bedfellows, Dennis Skinner, Jeremy
:28:35. > :28:39.Corbyn, you think history has proved you right on that one. Only history
:28:40. > :28:43.will tell, small number on Libya, ten voted against it, a small
:28:44. > :28:46.lumber, but what it teaches you is that numbers alone does not
:28:47. > :28:51.necessarily mean the right decision has been made. A number of us are
:28:52. > :28:55.saying, all that we are saying, look at the previous interventions, the
:28:56. > :29:00.previous errors, there is one common denominator, a lack of a strategic
:29:01. > :29:04.plan that's all you through to the end, including an exit strategy, and
:29:05. > :29:09.a lack of local knowledge. This looks very similar, I am afraid. On
:29:10. > :29:13.paper, you too could not be more different, you said you did not even
:29:14. > :29:19.need to whip the vote against for the SNP, complete uniformity. What
:29:20. > :29:23.is it, when you look at all of the factors, military experience, last
:29:24. > :29:28.vote on Iraq, I'm trying to work out if there is anything that you think
:29:29. > :29:33.unites the no position now? I think there is a number of things, John
:29:34. > :29:38.has just outlined most of them, briefly, the lack of strategy for
:29:39. > :29:42.winning the peace, no plan at all for stabilisation all
:29:43. > :29:48.reconstruction. -- stabilisation and reconstruction. The efficacy of the
:29:49. > :29:51.bombing, even though supporting it, Tories on the government side, have
:29:52. > :29:54.said, this will probably make little difference. Others voted against it
:29:55. > :29:59.saying, this will make no difference. That and... Are those
:30:00. > :30:07.questions we would not have asked before Iraq, the depth and precision
:30:08. > :30:11.of that kind of questioning. Indeed, but in the aftermath of Iraq, we are
:30:12. > :30:16.writes to ask them, what did we do, we created a vacuum which was filled
:30:17. > :30:21.by IS of this world, and I fear, in the absence of a proper strategic
:30:22. > :30:24.comprehensive international plan, to win the peace, as well as any
:30:25. > :30:30.conflict, we will create an even bigger vacuum in Syria, then we
:30:31. > :30:35.created in Iraq. To be brutally honest, although the government won
:30:36. > :30:38.the vote, they did not answer a single one of those fundamental
:30:39. > :30:42.question. John, how do you see the position of Jeremy Corbyn, we see
:30:43. > :30:46.that the Shadow Cabinet voted with him, we view, against, does he now
:30:47. > :30:52.look like a bigger figure, after tonight? In matters like this, it is
:30:53. > :30:57.a matter of conscience, the greatest responsibility that Parliament has,
:30:58. > :31:01.committing troops to battle, that is what we are talking about, lives on
:31:02. > :31:06.the line, both those who are in the Armed Forces but also those on the
:31:07. > :31:09.receiving end of the bombs. A great responsibility to have, should be a
:31:10. > :31:14.matter of conscience, I suppose I would say that, my whips would agree
:31:15. > :31:23.with me. As far as I'm concerned, he did what he had to do. If you went
:31:24. > :31:26.back you think the majority of people in Scotland against military
:31:27. > :31:28.action of this kind, if you go back and face questions of, why are you
:31:29. > :31:31.not doing anything about possibly the worst enemy we have faced since
:31:32. > :31:35.the Second World War, how do you look people in the eye? We have 100
:31:36. > :31:39.things that we want to do, we should follow the money from the oil
:31:40. > :31:44.supplies... We should look at the funding for Daesh... The supply of
:31:45. > :31:49.ammunition, who is supplying it and who is paying for it? All of these
:31:50. > :31:52.actions can be taken right now, not least challenging the corrupt
:31:53. > :31:55.ideology which leads people to follow this stuff in the first
:31:56. > :32:00.place, many, many, many things we could have done which do not involve
:32:01. > :32:05.going to war in a way, in the absence of a plan for exit, which
:32:06. > :32:08.may end up being a bigger problem. The reason we are asking these
:32:09. > :32:13.questions, you will write to refer to it, Parliament has set the bar
:32:14. > :32:19.higher for intervention, look at the previous errors, whether it is Iraq,
:32:20. > :32:22.Helmand Libya, even two years ago, when we stop the government from
:32:23. > :32:29.signing with the other side, in the Civil War, it is right that
:32:30. > :32:31.Parliament asks these questions and hold the executive to account. Some
:32:32. > :32:35.of the names and numbers have been filtering through, Rosie Winterton
:32:36. > :32:41.Labour Chief Whip, has abstained, that is what we understand so far,
:32:42. > :32:45.we think that nine other Labour MPs voted. -- abstained, along with her.
:32:46. > :32:48.That starts to show you some of the pictures are merging.
:32:49. > :33:02.Let's go to Damascus now. Lyce Doucet is there.
:33:03. > :33:11.Is anybody taking any notice of this British decision in the Syrian
:33:12. > :33:15.capital? I think that we have got to see it in perspective, the day began
:33:16. > :33:20.here, in Syria, with the newspapers not making a single mention about
:33:21. > :33:25.this debate in Britain, which unfolded, as we have seen throughout
:33:26. > :33:28.the day, with such intensity and symbolism, and most people that we
:33:29. > :33:33.spoke to today did not know about it, when we asked them about whether
:33:34. > :33:36.they care, whether they supported, whether Britain would join the air
:33:37. > :33:41.campaign, most of them said, they would welcome any action against the
:33:42. > :33:47.so-called Islamic State. The centre of Damascus is under Syrian and
:33:48. > :33:50.control, president Bashar al-Assad has his greatest supporter here,
:33:51. > :33:55.many were scathing, they said this is too little, too late, and it is
:33:56. > :33:59.not going to work unless the coalition, now that Britain has now
:34:00. > :34:02.joined it in the air campaign, ordinate actions with president
:34:03. > :34:06.Bashar al-Assad and the Syrian army. That is not going to happen, even
:34:07. > :34:11.though Russia has been calling for it. The real problem in this, now
:34:12. > :34:15.that the war is intensifying, the air strikes have started, they have
:34:16. > :34:22.gone on for more than a year, they have not stop the advance of Islamic
:34:23. > :34:25.state, president Bashar al-Assad were scathing about that, but there
:34:26. > :34:31.is another war that he's been going on for five years, the war between
:34:32. > :34:33.the forces of a growing array of Syrian opposition forces and the
:34:34. > :34:38.forces of Bashar al-Assad, fundamentally most of them believe
:34:39. > :34:42.this is the war that matters. For all of the statement and symbolism
:34:43. > :34:46.in London, what matters in a country where a life everyday is a matter of
:34:47. > :34:52.life or death, where hardship grows by the day, a country ravaged, where
:34:53. > :34:57.one third of the people here, 6.3 million people are dependent upon
:34:58. > :35:01.food aid in order to survive, they want results, they want this war to
:35:02. > :35:05.end, not to intensify, and make life even worse and cause even more
:35:06. > :35:07.Syrians to take that Trail heading to Europe. Thank you very much
:35:08. > :35:19.indeed. How much, housing, and to what
:35:20. > :35:26.effect will we have military action? -- how soon. It could start
:35:27. > :35:27.straight, we have eight Tornado ground attack aircraft based in
:35:28. > :35:33.Cyprus, aircraft that have ground attack aircraft based in
:35:34. > :35:38.bombing Iraq already, we are already plugged into the targeting analysis
:35:39. > :35:40.centre in Qatar, and so theoretically, these jets could be
:35:41. > :35:46.redirected to Syria, almost immediately. We will be sending out
:35:47. > :35:51.more jets, that is really so that we can conduct missions simultaneously
:35:52. > :35:56.in Iraq and in Syria, at the same time, when will this happen? Well,
:35:57. > :36:00.probably not tomorrow, but I reckon it'll probably be in the next 48 72
:36:01. > :36:06.hours, we will see this operation having started. As for the likely
:36:07. > :36:09.effect, even the British military do not want to exaggerate the impact,
:36:10. > :36:14.as one had said to me earlier today, an officer, Britain is getting
:36:15. > :36:18.involved with a maximum amount of knowledge but with an economy of
:36:19. > :36:21.military effort. One of the most interesting and contentious claims
:36:22. > :36:26.in the whole debate has been the issue of 70,000 potential fighters
:36:27. > :36:29.who are not jihadists and not supporters of Bashar al-Assad, we
:36:30. > :36:34.have been looking at that claim and who they are. Ever since David
:36:35. > :36:42.Cameron mentioned this in a debate on Thursday, last week, it has been
:36:43. > :36:45.a bone of contention. That is because the great unknown in all of
:36:46. > :36:49.this is who is going to fight the ground war? Who is going to be in
:36:50. > :36:52.hand to hand combat with Islamic State? What David Cameron appeared
:36:53. > :36:56.to be doing last week was providing us with an answer. MPs from all
:36:57. > :37:00.sides of the house have raised concerns about this, it was
:37:01. > :37:01.certainly one of the most contentious issues in today's
:37:02. > :37:10.debate. VOICEOVER: We know that there is
:37:11. > :37:16.Syrian rebel fighters. Delay number 70,000? With a fight for us? Where
:37:17. > :37:21.did that figure come from? -- are there are 70,000? Today, David
:37:22. > :37:26.Cameron stuck to his guns, with qualification. I am not arguing,
:37:27. > :37:30.this is crucial, that all of the 70,000 are somehow ideal partners,
:37:31. > :37:33.some have left the Syrian army because of the brutality of Bashar
:37:34. > :37:38.al-Assad, they clearly can play a role in the future of Syria. This
:37:39. > :37:44.analyst, Charles Lister, thinks the number is about right, he defines
:37:45. > :37:47.moderates as being both opposed to Isil, and the group that the
:37:48. > :37:53.coalition wants to work with, it is complicated, but he cites 25,000
:37:54. > :37:58.members belonging to 58 factions of the free Syrian Army boss southern
:37:59. > :38:05.front, in areas like Damascus. He says another 20,000 FSA fighters
:38:06. > :38:13.from 14 factions are found in the North, in Homs, Hama and it live and
:38:14. > :38:19.Aleppo. Another 40,000, belonging of -- another 30,000 have been
:38:20. > :38:23.identified. -- Idlib. This makes a total of 75,000. As Charles Lister
:38:24. > :38:27.excepts, even if the maths adds up, another problem, experts we have
:38:28. > :38:32.spoken to say that there is just no way that that many Rebels would take
:38:33. > :38:35.up arms against Islamic State, their focus at the moment is defending the
:38:36. > :38:41.civilian population against the forces of Bashar al-Assad, Islamic
:38:42. > :38:45.State just is not a priority. In fact, in areas where the Rebels have
:38:46. > :38:49.managed to push back Islamic State, they have then been pounded by
:38:50. > :38:52.president Bashar al-Assad's air force, even if they had the
:38:53. > :38:57.wherewithal to do it, they have very little incentive to do so. Were you
:38:58. > :39:02.surprised that David Cameron used that 70,000 figure? I was, the
:39:03. > :39:05.problem is it was not put into context and not broken down into
:39:06. > :39:09.what these groups represent, what their actual power base is in the
:39:10. > :39:13.country and what change they could affect on the ground if a UK
:39:14. > :39:19.strategy were to openly back them. The same as the 70,000 group, it is
:39:20. > :39:22.not really explaining how they are able to assist us in fighting Isis,
:39:23. > :39:26.to some of these fighters have almost no power on the ground
:39:27. > :39:30.whatsoever, because they are aligned to much more powerful groups that do
:39:31. > :39:34.not fight Isis, and some are sectarian and Islamist, not the kind
:39:35. > :39:38.of people you would like to be in alliance with. In the Commons today,
:39:39. > :39:43.scorn from the Tory chair of the defence committee, he drew a
:39:44. > :39:50.comparison with history. Instead of having dodgy dossiers, we now have
:39:51. > :39:57.bogus battalions, of " moderate fighters"! SHOUTING
:39:58. > :40:04.Iraq in 2003, Syria in 2015, different wars, with different
:40:05. > :40:08.dossiers, but a reminder of the perils of overstating the case. Some
:40:09. > :40:12.unease in Whitehall about the use of this 70,000 figure, no other
:40:13. > :40:17.government relies upon it. Officials privately whisper, it was probably a
:40:18. > :40:23.mistake for the Prime Minister to be so precise. Whether he meant it or
:40:24. > :40:27.not, this is the figure against which David Cameron will now be
:40:28. > :40:31.judged. If the Rebels to emerge in their tens of thousands to banish
:40:32. > :40:34.Isil, he will be vindicated, if they do not, 70,000 is the number that
:40:35. > :40:42.will come back to haunt him. STUDIO: Until January this year,
:40:43. > :40:45.Hadi Al-Bahra was President of the National Coalition for Syrian
:40:46. > :40:56.Revolutionary and Opposition Forces. Your reaction to the decision of the
:40:57. > :41:06.British Parliament to enter this action against Isil. Thank God! I
:41:07. > :41:11.think they have taken the right decision, although it was late,
:41:12. > :41:17.better late than never! They acted responsibly, and wisely, and we hope
:41:18. > :41:24.to have a successful campaign against combating all terrorism, and
:41:25. > :41:28.extremism, in that area. However, you would really like the British to
:41:29. > :41:37.be involved against Bashar al-Assad, as well? Shaw, winning the campaign
:41:38. > :41:43.against terrorism, it cannot be won only by military means. We have
:41:44. > :41:49.really to deal with the root causes of extremism, and terrorism, in the
:41:50. > :41:53.area, and mainly, the tyranny of the regime, the Richie McCaw Bashar
:41:54. > :41:59.al-Assad, the corruption, in the area, and also the poverty in the
:42:00. > :42:06.area. We have to deal on all fronts in order for us to have a successful
:42:07. > :42:08.campaign against terrorism, we have been acting against Al-Qaeda for
:42:09. > :42:17.more than 15 years. What have we got? We have got Isis, more extreme,
:42:18. > :42:23.the organisation, more extreme than Al-Qaeda, a horrible terrorist
:42:24. > :42:28.organisation. That is why, because we acted only on military front, we
:42:29. > :42:34.did not act really on the social and economic reasons. Which created
:42:35. > :42:38.terrorism and extremism in the area. A lot has been said about the
:42:39. > :42:43.process which began in Vienna, hopefully leading to some political
:42:44. > :42:46.solution, everybody here is talking about how this might work, they are
:42:47. > :42:51.suggesting there might be a political settlement involving
:42:52. > :42:56.Bashar al-Assad. Stepping aside, but perhaps in a transitional way, can
:42:57. > :43:00.you work with the Vienna process, as I understand it, none of the Syrians
:43:01. > :43:06.are in the process, it is all the foreign powers, can you work within
:43:07. > :43:11.the Vienna process? For us we have acted responsibly. With all of the
:43:12. > :43:17.United Nations efforts, since the previous regime. -- since the
:43:18. > :43:23.previous conferences, Geneva one and Geneva two, now we are ready to act
:43:24. > :43:27.very positively, and actively, with the current efforts of the
:43:28. > :43:31.international community, through Vienna, and through the
:43:32. > :43:36.reactivation, really, of the Geneva conference, to comply and implement
:43:37. > :43:41.the communique from the first Geneva conference. Many people will regard
:43:42. > :43:46.that as helpful. Last question, 70,000, non-jihadists, non-Bashar
:43:47. > :43:47.al-Assad fighters, who could potentially go in and help in a
:43:48. > :44:00.ground war against Isil... ? Yes, we have moderate forces on the
:44:01. > :44:07.ground ready to fight Isis, they have been fighting Isis. We fought
:44:08. > :44:12.Isis since 2013 without receiving really the proper aid and assistance
:44:13. > :44:17.from the international community. We have been through this battle alone.
:44:18. > :44:20.We fought two fronts, one front against the tyranny of al-Assad
:44:21. > :44:28.regime and the second front against Isil. So now we are ready to
:44:29. > :44:32.continue our fight but it has to be an organised fight, it has to be
:44:33. > :44:36.assisted by the international community. This is not Syrian
:44:37. > :44:41.problem alone. It's international problem. These fighters they came to
:44:42. > :44:46.Syria from all the country from all over the world, they came from the
:44:47. > :44:52.US, from England, from France, from the Arab world, from every corner on
:44:53. > :44:57.the Earth. So all of us, we have to act really in unity against
:44:58. > :45:04.terrorism and extremism. Hadi Al-Bahra, thank you. Let's go back
:45:05. > :45:07.to College Green and get the latest there. Emily?
:45:08. > :45:10.Since we have been on air, some of the protesters that have been
:45:11. > :45:15.gathering in Parliament Square have started to bring their banners and
:45:16. > :45:19.their chants down closer behind the cameras, perhaps you can hear them.
:45:20. > :45:25.They are saying, "Shame on you, don't bomb Syria." We think it is
:45:26. > :45:30.mostly the Stop The War Coalition. We saw the momentum of the Stop The
:45:31. > :45:34.War campaigners over the weekend, so that has been something that they
:45:35. > :45:38.are now feeling incredibly strongly about, given those vote numbers,
:45:39. > :45:43.that are stacking up, which seem to indicate, which really do indicate
:45:44. > :45:47.that David Cameron has the mandate to extend those air strikes into
:45:48. > :45:52.Syria, which, as we have been hearing, could be any time in 72
:45:53. > :45:58.hours. The curious thing is, the place behind me is accused of Punch
:45:59. > :46:01.and Judy politics. Today it was anything but that. There was real
:46:02. > :46:06.soul-searching, rigorous questioning and there was heart-felt argument
:46:07. > :46:10.and debate. Perhaps one of the finest pieces of oratory came at the
:46:11. > :46:14.end of that marathon ten-hour session and it came from the Shadow
:46:15. > :46:20.Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn, who seemed to grow in stature as he
:46:21. > :46:26.spoke, always courteous, but very, very impassioned with what he said
:46:27. > :46:30.and he was cheered from all sides. Curious to see the Government front
:46:31. > :46:34.bench clapping him on as he took to his feet and spoke. This is what he
:46:35. > :46:39.said. They hold our values in contempt, they hold our belief in
:46:40. > :46:43.tolerance and decency in contempt, they hold our democracy, the means
:46:44. > :46:51.by which we will make our decision tonight in contempt! What we know
:46:52. > :46:58.about fascists is that they need to be defeated. Hilary Benn speaking
:46:59. > :47:01.there right at the very end of the ten-hour debate. Our political
:47:02. > :47:06.editor is with me. That seemed to be something of a game-changer, or a
:47:07. > :47:10.moment, people are saying that he really sort of grew in the eyes of
:47:11. > :47:14.many listening there? For many people, he has during the week, so
:47:15. > :47:20.67 Labour people voted with the Government, to give you the detail.
:47:21. > :47:29.Seven Conservative rebels have voted against their leader, but it is down
:47:30. > :47:34.on what we were talking about earlier. It is lower and then seven
:47:35. > :47:39.abstentions. Let's go back to that Labour number. I have been texted
:47:40. > :47:41.already to say that people who have been organising against Jeremy
:47:42. > :47:46.Corbyn and this group Momentum, these people who have been e-mailing
:47:47. > :48:06.Labour MPs, who were wavering, to say this is how you need to vote,
:48:07. > :48:11.you need to be anti this war. They think 67 is amazing. Against this,
:48:12. > :48:15.Jeremy Corbyn's team is putting out this evening that firstly a majority
:48:16. > :48:18.of the Shadow Cabinet supported the Labour Leader, which is quite
:48:19. > :48:25.extraordinary given... 16, we have just had that number, 16 supporting
:48:26. > :48:30.Jeremy Corbyn. 11 against him. You would struggle to find 16 who you
:48:31. > :48:33.would say would vote in that way. He has inspired some kind of loyalty.
:48:34. > :48:39.The other thing that Jeremy Corbyn's team is saying that over 150 MPs
:48:40. > :48:43.supporting him, he is enhanced this evening. Even though this evening
:48:44. > :48:47.David Cameron has won this vote, he of all people will know that support
:48:48. > :48:51.in this country for military intervention is very, very hard-won
:48:52. > :48:55.and evaporates very quickly. If there is any "mission creep" or any
:48:56. > :49:04.sense that it is going on too long, then things will turn against David
:49:05. > :49:09.Cameron. It could be that Jeremy Corbyn is prophetic. Once you have
:49:10. > :49:14.been through those numbers, we will be crunching them to work out who
:49:15. > :49:18.took whose side and how they fell. I think what will be remembered most
:49:19. > :49:21.of all is some of the speeches that we have heard, that real sense of
:49:22. > :49:25.MPs asking themselves the questions that perhaps they didn't ask last
:49:26. > :49:29.time round, there has been a ghost of Iraq on many of the shoulders,
:49:30. > :49:33.the poignancy, the precision, the depth of the questioning this time
:49:34. > :49:37.round seems to undermine a sense that many of those questions weren't
:49:38. > :49:40.asked properly last time around. So, you have heard a few of the speeches
:49:41. > :49:46.that have come through and it will be interesting to look back over the
:49:47. > :49:48.years and just see what has come to what many spoke about this evening.
:49:49. > :49:52.Back to Evan. Thank you. The voice of British Muslims is
:49:53. > :49:54.important in the arguments over military action - although we
:49:55. > :49:56.shouldn't assume there is only one Secunder Kermani has spent the day
:49:57. > :50:00.in High Wycombe - a community that's been in the spotlight after
:50:01. > :50:20.at least two young men It's a typical commuter town, but on
:50:21. > :50:24.these suburban streets foreign policy matters. High Wycombe has a
:50:25. > :50:30.large British Muslim population and many here are unhappy with Western
:50:31. > :50:35.governments. People have given up hope nowadays, the community doesn't
:50:36. > :50:38.have that much hope anymore. They do stuff like this, to share their
:50:39. > :50:40.thoughts with everyone, every day you walk past, you will see these
:50:41. > :50:46.same things. There had been a picture of Osama
:50:47. > :50:51.Bin Laden here, statements of resistance, if not support, perhaps.
:50:52. > :50:55.Zayn has been following the debate on air strikes in Syria. I'm not in
:50:56. > :50:59.favour of them. There is a small part of me which is not against them
:51:00. > :51:05.either in the sense that I think that I believe that those bombs are
:51:06. > :51:10.going to go and hit Isis and they will hit the terrorists that are
:51:11. > :51:14.giving us Muslims the bad name. They should be destroyed, not the
:51:15. > :51:20.innocents. This confuses me. Like I said, you can go and you can bomb
:51:21. > :51:23.Syria as much as you like, but you are killing innocent people. Down
:51:24. > :51:28.the road, there is a sense of anger at the prospect of more bombs in a
:51:29. > :51:31.Muslim country. They shouldn't do it. They will kill innocent people.
:51:32. > :51:37.How do you think the Government should be fighting against Isis if
:51:38. > :51:41.they are not doing air strikes? I don't know. Bombing is not, it is
:51:42. > :51:47.not worth bombing because you will kill a lot of innocent people. They
:51:48. > :51:54.should do it another way. In the mosques, they are aware that a
:51:55. > :51:58.number of young men from the area have joined Isis. Some people would
:51:59. > :52:04.say foreign policy is used as an excuse, it is not the real reason.
:52:05. > :52:09.Half of their targets are Shias, or other Muslims. If you analyse the
:52:10. > :52:14.statements of jihadis that have killed themselves, more and one have
:52:15. > :52:20.cited their reasons, and they include foreign policy. This is one
:52:21. > :52:24.area of concern that every jihadist has said and then they have blown
:52:25. > :52:29.themselves and others up. We need to take it seriously. This man was
:52:30. > :52:33.friends with one of those from the area now with Isis. We are
:52:34. > :52:36.protecting his identity. How does it feel thinking they could be on the
:52:37. > :52:42.receiving end of British bombs in Syria? That is a choice they have
:52:43. > :52:46.made. I'm not concerned about them. My main concern is the innocent men,
:52:47. > :52:49.women and children that can't get to refuge. More concern should be going
:52:50. > :52:53.over them than people who are going into that situation. You have seen
:52:54. > :52:55.the Isis ideology, does there need to be a military solution to
:52:56. > :52:59.defeating them? Is any other way to be a military solution to
:53:00. > :53:02.possible? Most people would say it seems like there isn't? I think it's
:53:03. > :53:07.gone too far. There is an issue that has to be faced. But does that
:53:08. > :53:13.justify increasing a humanitarian crisis? These guys, they don't just
:53:14. > :53:20.give up because you are throwing bombs on their heads. Everyone we
:53:21. > :53:23.spoke to opposes Isis, but for some, angry at Government policies
:53:24. > :53:26.affecting Muslims here and abroad, there is a perception the air
:53:27. > :53:34.strikes are the latest Western mistake. Secunder Kermani there. You
:53:35. > :53:37.heard from Lyse Doucet that people weren't aware we were having this
:53:38. > :53:38.vote in Syria. I was interested to see the
:53:39. > :53:40.New York Times report on today's It described the vote as -
:53:41. > :53:42.and I quote - one that's "become a wider test of British
:53:43. > :53:44.willingness to play an active role The issue has always been more
:53:45. > :53:50.about alliance solidarity and leadership than about strict
:53:51. > :53:56.military or strategic utility". The piece didn't mention
:53:57. > :53:59.our famed Brimstone missiles. And that may get to the heart
:54:00. > :54:02.of it - the decision is as much about top-table places, as it is
:54:03. > :54:14.about extra military firepower. To finish the programme, I'm still
:54:15. > :54:19.with my panel of three. First, let's reflect, if this fails, or if it
:54:20. > :54:23.appears to have failed, Max Hastings that, is the end of it for votes
:54:24. > :54:28.like this on future military interventions for decades? I don't
:54:29. > :54:32.think this has been a great day for democracy. A lot of what was said in
:54:33. > :54:36.the House of Commons was tosh. Hilary Benn substituted intense
:54:37. > :54:39.emotion and passion for intense discussion. I'm strongly in favour
:54:40. > :54:43.of military action. If one is convinced it is going to work. I
:54:44. > :54:48.think we are wading into a hell of a mess in Syria. We will end up having
:54:49. > :54:50.ground troops there and a lot of what David Cameron has said in
:54:51. > :54:54.defence of this policy is for the fairies. I don't think it will
:54:55. > :54:57.happen. I think it will have to be Western ground troops and it will be
:54:58. > :55:00.a hell of a mess unless the Russians change their spots dramatically.
:55:01. > :55:05.That must really depress you for someone who does believe in the
:55:06. > :55:10.power of intervention? I do. I think this is a mistaken one. It will be
:55:11. > :55:15.hard to make the case again if this one fails? I'm amazed that David
:55:16. > :55:20.Cameron can make many of the arguments he used for that
:55:21. > :55:23.disastrous intervention in Libya and most of the House of Commons is
:55:24. > :55:29.willing to go with him and they are bonkers. You are bonkers in his view
:55:30. > :55:33.as well, Deborah? The issue is, we have already committed, it is not
:55:34. > :55:37.like we have embarked on a new war today. We were already at war, we
:55:38. > :55:47.already decided last year that we were with the United States, with
:55:48. > :55:56.France. It's all very well thinking how we can get to the endgame. We
:55:57. > :56:01.are here, we are acting. The 2013 vote when Britain said no to air
:56:02. > :56:07.strikes against President al-Assad's regime, you can argue the rights and
:56:08. > :56:11.wrongs of that. It undermined our confidence, it undermined our status
:56:12. > :56:18.in the world, as a military power. You are saying the Alliance, right
:56:19. > :56:22.or wrong? I'm not saying the Alliance is right or wrong, we are
:56:23. > :56:25.in the Alliance. If we are in the Alliance, which we have been for the
:56:26. > :56:32.last year, we should be fully in, as we are at the moment. It gets to
:56:33. > :56:37.what the New York Times said, Shashank Joshi. What was the phrase
:56:38. > :56:41.you used, diplomatic gesture? One of the interesting things is the
:56:42. > :56:44.precedent that has been set over the last several years on going to
:56:45. > :56:50.Parliament for matters of War and Peace in this way and how tense, how
:56:51. > :56:55.finely balanced it has been. One of the interesting effects of this in
:56:56. > :57:02.the long run will be NATO allies in Eastern Europe, Baltic countries
:57:03. > :57:07.like Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, wondering if there is an Article 5
:57:08. > :57:11.issue at stake, are we going to have weeks of debate in the House of
:57:12. > :57:16.Commons about this every time the UK wishes to intervene in this way? It
:57:17. > :57:26.is not just the outcome, it is not just exorcising the ghost of 2013,
:57:27. > :57:32.where does this leave us? If we go into this escapade because we are
:57:33. > :57:35.part of a team, it means we are not sub-contracting our defence, as some
:57:36. > :57:38.people have said we would be doing, but it does mean we will be
:57:39. > :57:43.sub-contracting our thinking, we are saying, we are doing it because you
:57:44. > :57:46.are doing it. Is that the way we should make these decisions? It is
:57:47. > :57:52.more than we are doing it because you are doing it. The fact is,
:57:53. > :57:56.America and France are fundamental to our security and in a world which
:57:57. > :58:02.is so unstable, when you have got threats like Isis, you have got the
:58:03. > :58:06.actions of Russia, which are so unpredictable and Russia exploits
:58:07. > :58:10.the fact that we have this democratic process that means we
:58:11. > :58:26.need to have these crazy debates. It is really important to be unified. I
:58:27. > :58:29.do understand that - maybe I sound idealistic and with the fairies.
:58:30. > :58:35.Doing something together is better than thinking it is too difficult we
:58:36. > :58:40.can't do it. I will give you one example... That is the problem with
:58:41. > :58:46.this whole debate. It's been fixated on air power and it is so much more
:58:47. > :58:52.than that. The fact that we have committed to air power in Syria, it
:58:53. > :59:01.means we have a greater ability to influence the wider campaign. Our
:59:02. > :59:05.contribution is - the Americans have flown 56,000 sorties in Syria and
:59:06. > :59:09.Iraq. The idea that Isis will be trembling tomorrow morning because
:59:10. > :59:13.the RAF's eight Tornados are joining in, this is an example of how we
:59:14. > :59:20.delude ourselves. It is symbolic, but it is important because we are
:59:21. > :59:27.participating in the Alliance. Is this an Iraq moment? Will we look
:59:28. > :59:31.back on this vote as one of those decisive, defining votes? I don't
:59:32. > :59:35.think so. Iraq was the shattering of a large army and a state. Here,
:59:36. > :59:40.millions have fled, hundreds of thousands have died, there is a war
:59:41. > :59:44.already going on and I'm - that is why I'm dismayed by the arguments
:59:45. > :59:49.against this being civilians will die. Hundreds of thousands have died
:59:50. > :59:51.already. In that sense, it is not Libya, it is not Iraq. Thank you all
:59:52. > :00:11.very much. Although Jeremy Corbyn managed to
:00:12. > :00:15.keep his Shadow Cabinet with him, but Andy Burnham voted against,
:00:16. > :00:17.apparently influenced by the Prime Minister calling opponents
:00:18. > :00:20."terrorist sympathisers". Well, that's it
:00:21. > :00:21.for this very important evening. The country is not entering this new
:00:22. > :00:25.military arena with any unity around the strategy -
:00:26. > :00:28.but despite a robust argument, there