:00:00. > :00:00.Tonight, pressure on the PM to make a decision on Heathrow expansion
:00:00. > :00:13.But the government looks set to delay.
:00:14. > :00:17.Maybe it's political - but tonight we ask why we can't seem
:00:18. > :00:21.Tony Blair calls Jeremy Corbyn a tragedy for Labour.
:00:22. > :00:23.Will it play right into the leader's hands?
:00:24. > :00:26.We ask how Labour moderates are lining up after a rocky few
:00:27. > :00:33.I think if Jeremy's previous record in parliament shows us anything,
:00:34. > :00:37.it shows us that it's right and principled to take different
:00:38. > :00:40.views, on occasions, on issues you feel strongly about.
:00:41. > :00:51.And the tiger who came to tea - and has really never left.
:00:52. > :00:54.Judith Kerr talks about the lasting endurance of her characters and why
:00:55. > :00:57.she's top of the Christmas list aged 92.
:00:58. > :00:59.If I didn't draw, I would have probably taken to religion,
:01:00. > :01:12.Have you taken to religion at all? No.
:01:13. > :01:15."No ifs, no buts, no third runway at Heathrow."
:01:16. > :01:18.The statement made by David Cameron back in 2009, which,
:01:19. > :01:22.even then, looked hostage to fortune.
:01:23. > :01:26.Tonight, six years on, on the eve of a key meeting
:01:27. > :01:30.by a Cabinet committee set to decide whether to delay the decision
:01:31. > :01:32.to expand, the whole question looks even more starkly political.
:01:33. > :01:36.Chambers of commerce from across the country have written
:01:37. > :01:39.to the PM demanding he give it the green light before the end
:01:40. > :01:41.of the year, warning that any delay raises grave concerns
:01:42. > :01:45.about the country's credibility when it comes
:01:46. > :01:48.But there are voices from within the PM's Cabinet
:01:49. > :01:50.who are fiercely against expansion on environmental grounds.
:01:51. > :01:53.And most crucially of all, a Tory candidate for Mayor,
:01:54. > :01:55.Zac Goldmsith, who's made clear he would resign rather than tolerate
:01:56. > :02:02.Does this country, and this government, have a problem when it
:02:03. > :02:04.comes to making the big strategic decisions?
:02:05. > :02:07.Here's our economics correspondent, Duncan Weldon.
:02:08. > :02:10.Due to land tomorrow, a final decision on whether to give
:02:11. > :02:12.the third runway at Heathrow the go-ahead.
:02:13. > :02:14.But like all things involving airports, it is sensible
:02:15. > :02:20.It now looks like the decision has been pushed back by another six
:02:21. > :02:23.months whilst the government gets new environmental
:02:24. > :02:27.Or alternatively, waits for the London mayoral election
:02:28. > :02:34.This is only the latest setback at Heathrow.
:02:35. > :02:41.This camp was set up near the airport by
:02:42. > :02:43.environmental protesters when a decision last looked due.
:02:44. > :02:45.Since then, it has literally had time to
:02:46. > :02:48.This camp is now approaching its sixth birthday.
:02:49. > :02:49.Six years protesting about a decision
:02:50. > :02:56.This saga, and that is the only word that works, has been running a lot
:02:57. > :03:07.It was back at the turn of the millennium that the Department
:03:08. > :03:09.for Transport predicted passenger numbers would double by 2020,
:03:10. > :03:13.In 2003, a white paper was published on a third runway.
:03:14. > :03:15.Three years later, the government confirmed its support
:03:16. > :03:19.2007 saw a public consultation but in 2008, the Conservatives came
:03:20. > :03:29.Finally, in 2009, a third runway was approved.
:03:30. > :03:31.But next year, the coalition agreement ruled
:03:32. > :03:37.Under pressure from business in 2012, an Airports
:03:38. > :03:39.Commission was appointed to review the options and reopen the issue.
:03:40. > :03:42.That report in July this year, backing a third runway.
:03:43. > :03:44.Tomorrow, we are supposed to finally see a final
:03:45. > :03:50.If there is another six months in it, business
:03:51. > :03:52.will be appalled because they will see another deferral,
:03:53. > :03:57.another reason why it can be delayed again.
:03:58. > :03:59.What was the point in having the Davies
:04:00. > :04:04.Our members care far more about a decision being made
:04:05. > :04:07.than they do about whether it is Heathrow or Gatwick.
:04:08. > :04:14.It is actually vital that something is done and done in time for this
:04:15. > :04:17.generation of businesses to be able to use it in going for this trillion
:04:18. > :04:22.pound export goal that this government,
:04:23. > :04:24.laughingly, laughably, suggests ought to be the real target
:04:25. > :04:36.opposes expansion but still wants a decision.
:04:37. > :04:47.If it is not a mayoral election, it is the general
:04:48. > :04:49.election, there is always something that pushes this back.
:04:50. > :04:51.But in the meantime, this is our lives.
:04:52. > :04:52.The government is playing with our lives.
:04:53. > :04:56.We are agreed that we want them to get on with it and make
:04:57. > :04:59.a decision and let us know where we stand and what we can do.
:05:00. > :05:01.Heathrow is not the only example of national
:05:02. > :05:07.Many of our sewers and bridges date back to Victorian
:05:08. > :05:11.More than 100 years later, we still rely on the legacy
:05:12. > :05:17.It took two years for the building of the great Western
:05:18. > :05:20.Isambard Kingdom Brunel built it in just six.
:05:21. > :05:25.We have been at or near the bottom of the league
:05:26. > :05:28.table in all kinds of infrastructure metrics for at least 40 years.
:05:29. > :05:37.In the end, it is about political short termism,
:05:38. > :05:41.not even with different parties.
:05:42. > :05:43.Different governments might change their mind,
:05:44. > :05:45.but within one government you might get a different decision.
:05:46. > :05:50.They are asking people to make investment decisions that will cost
:05:51. > :05:53.billions of pounds and need to be paid back over 50 years.
:05:54. > :05:55.They are just not going to bother when there
:05:56. > :06:01.Politicians have two problems, geography and time.
:06:02. > :06:02.The benefits of expanding Heathrow are spread out
:06:03. > :06:09.But the losers are concentrated in areas like this and that is
:06:10. > :06:16.The benefits accrue over decades but the costs
:06:17. > :06:17.can be concentrated into one 5-year political cycle.
:06:18. > :06:20.Heathrow, Gatwick, somewhere else or nowhere, the future of airport
:06:21. > :06:24.capacity is a key bit of what you might call a long-term
:06:25. > :06:26.economic plan but short-term politics seem to keep
:06:27. > :06:41.We did bid for the government voice in this but they are not joining us
:06:42. > :06:42.tonight. Joining me now, Martin Sorrell, WPP,
:06:43. > :06:50.head of the biggest advertising It's widely assumed there will be
:06:51. > :06:58.delayed decision for six months. What will you do if it's delayed?
:06:59. > :07:01.There's not much I guess we can do, especially in the. It's another
:07:02. > :07:07.example of dithering over a decision. We've had a studious and
:07:08. > :07:13.lengthy decision under Howard Davies, and they came up with the
:07:14. > :07:19.conclusion, and it sounds like the final decision will be postponed. On
:07:20. > :07:23.understandable grounds in some senses because of environmental
:07:24. > :07:27.concerns, but when you look at it in detail, the environmental concerns
:07:28. > :07:34.can be dealt with, as the Howard Davies commission set out. What's
:07:35. > :07:36.important in this context, infrastructure investment, which
:07:37. > :07:45.EuroPro League to this conversation emphasised. -- which your pro you'd.
:07:46. > :07:52.Dubai is understandable, because it's a new country with new
:07:53. > :07:55.infrastructure, but even Paris and Frankfurt and Amsterdam have made
:07:56. > :08:00.far more progress in terms of airport development. It's about
:08:01. > :08:06.trade, jobs, because an expansion at Heathrow will add estimates between
:08:07. > :08:10.60000 and 100,000 jobs around Heathrow. Even more in the context
:08:11. > :08:15.of the UK. It's about connectivity to other airports in the UK, and
:08:16. > :08:23.last but not least, the issue of infrastructure as well. I guess the
:08:24. > :08:27.issue of progress in other countries comes at the expense of democracy at
:08:28. > :08:30.some level. It's more important in this country to preserve that
:08:31. > :08:37.essence of listening to constituents. It is, but there is
:08:38. > :08:42.some degree of expediency here. There is the environmental issue
:08:43. > :08:47.people are talking about. We are going through the process in Paris
:08:48. > :08:52.that is extremely important. There is also the political element, we
:08:53. > :08:56.have mayoral election, both Conservative and Labour main
:08:57. > :09:01.candidates are against the idea of Heathrow expansion. I think that
:09:02. > :09:04.puts the government and Prime Minister in a difficult position.
:09:05. > :09:11.Postponing a decision for six months or so, enables them to deal with
:09:12. > :09:17.that problem, at least until after that election. Unless Zac Goldsmith
:09:18. > :09:21.resigns, as I think one of his associates suggested he might do,
:09:22. > :09:32.infant of that election, with a non-decision in place. Both business
:09:33. > :09:35.and the unions are united on this. Unite, the biggest union of Len
:09:36. > :09:37.McCluskey, has made it clear the unions are in favour of Heathrow
:09:38. > :09:43.expansion as well. That's interesting. Would it be a price
:09:44. > :09:50.worth paying in your eyes to have a politician, a Tory candidate for
:09:51. > :09:58.mayor, resigning for this to go ahead? I presume you will say yes.
:09:59. > :10:02.The importance of this decision transcends a candidate and a mayoral
:10:03. > :10:08.campaign. It's much more fundamental. Talking about long-term
:10:09. > :10:16.economic policy covering education, technology, jobs, skills, training,
:10:17. > :10:19.and infrastructure. This is a key infrastructure investment that is
:10:20. > :10:23.pivotal because there are connection routes that extend from this. There
:10:24. > :10:29.are road routes that extend from this. Jobs extend from this. This
:10:30. > :10:34.infrastructure investment, this lack of decision-making, is critical to
:10:35. > :10:37.the future of the country. You said dithering and delaying, do you see
:10:38. > :10:42.that as endemic to the way this government makes decisions on other
:10:43. > :10:45.matters, for example be EU negotiations we are in the middle of
:10:46. > :10:50.the moment. David Cameron is in Eastern Europe today and tomorrow,
:10:51. > :10:56.do you see that process on the same lines? That's unfair. Taking it, as
:10:57. > :10:59.you said earlier in the conversation, taking into account
:11:00. > :11:05.everybody's interest is very difficult. When you look at the
:11:06. > :11:10.delay, as your film introduction made clear, this decision has been
:11:11. > :11:16.talked about, extending airport capacity, whether it be Heathrow,
:11:17. > :11:20.Gatwick, another airport, Boris's airport, whatever, has been talked
:11:21. > :11:26.about for many years. Actually building this runway at significant
:11:27. > :11:30.cost, whether it was at Heathrow, Gatwick or a new airport, would take
:11:31. > :11:35.a significant period of time, and by that time we will have missed out on
:11:36. > :11:39.major opportunities. You are an advertising man and understand
:11:40. > :11:44.branding. You understand the importance of a word. If David
:11:45. > :11:48.Cameron said in 2009, no ifs, no buts, no third runway, would you not
:11:49. > :11:54.agree that the most important thing for him is to retain credibility and
:11:55. > :11:58.stand by his words? We all make judgments at various points in time
:11:59. > :12:06.that sometimes later we might regret. It may be that conditions
:12:07. > :12:08.and circumstances change. It may be you have to change your point of
:12:09. > :12:14.view because conditions have changed, economic, political and
:12:15. > :12:22.social conditions. It needs a change of mind. It was 2009, its 2015 now.
:12:23. > :12:27.It's linked in a way to the market issue and the EU issue. If we don't
:12:28. > :12:33.have expansion of our infrastructure, if we vote to come
:12:34. > :12:39.out of the EU, these sorts of decisions, rightly or wrongly, will
:12:40. > :12:45.place us in a difficult competitive position. London is a world capital,
:12:46. > :12:48.and by not expanding its airport capacity it limits its appeal as a
:12:49. > :12:51.world capital, and that has serious consequences, I think.
:12:52. > :12:53.Labour's most electorally successful leader, Tony Blair,
:12:54. > :12:56.has today damned the party under Jeremy Corbyn as a "fringe protest
:12:57. > :13:02.It's hard to think of anything that could cement his popularity more
:13:03. > :13:05.firmly amongst his supporters than harsh words from the man
:13:06. > :13:08.many of them regard as a war criminal.
:13:09. > :13:11.And it clinches the dilemma of the Labour party.
:13:12. > :13:15.Many of the moderate MPs cannot wait to write off their current leader.
:13:16. > :13:17.But each time he faces a decisive moment -
:13:18. > :13:19.the Syria vote, the Oldham by-election - he seems to rise,
:13:20. > :13:21.reenergized, from what appeared to be ashes.
:13:22. > :13:35.Allegra Stratton looks at the state of play.
:13:36. > :13:39.All political leaders need momentum, but this autumn Jeremy Corbyn's
:13:40. > :13:43.first 100 days hasn't flowed smoothly at all.
:13:44. > :13:45.The Labour leader has made some headway.
:13:46. > :13:48.The government U-turned on tax credits and policing, after all.
:13:49. > :13:51.But still, sometimes it seems he's been fighting
:13:52. > :13:59.Last week was a point of real danger for the Labour leader.
:14:00. > :14:04.It brought the prospect of not one, but two crises.
:14:05. > :14:06.Chaos over the Syria vote, and then the possibility of losing
:14:07. > :14:11.Jeremy Corbyn's opponents told me that over the past week,
:14:12. > :14:15.there were moments when he looked in real serious trouble.
:14:16. > :14:18.In the end, just under half of his Shadow Cabinet defied him
:14:19. > :14:22.on Syria, and his party held on to Oldham.
:14:23. > :14:26.He has emerged from this fortnight miserablis enhanced.
:14:27. > :14:29.So, what now for these mighty forces within the Labour Party pitched
:14:30. > :14:35.Two former soldiers, both tipped for great things,
:14:36. > :14:42.I think we have to move forward to May.
:14:43. > :14:45.I think we face elections taking place all around the country,
:14:46. > :14:49.and that provides a mechanism for us all to come together
:14:50. > :14:51.to support our Labour candidates around the country.
:14:52. > :14:53.I think, when I went back to my constituency,
:14:54. > :14:58.Angry at the scheming and behaviour of elements of the PLP.
:14:59. > :15:12.Surely it marked something of a tipping point.
:15:13. > :15:15.The Labour leader brought the majority of his MPs with him,
:15:16. > :15:19.Did the 66 pro-strikes Labour MPs set themselves apart
:15:20. > :15:24.I don't have that concern, because I think if Jeremy's previous
:15:25. > :15:27.record in parliament shows us anything, it shows that it is right
:15:28. > :15:29.and principled to take different views on occasions,
:15:30. > :15:40.about issues you feel strongly about.
:15:41. > :15:44.I'm not saying it's going to take in 20 or 30 years to rehabilitate.
:15:45. > :15:48.I think most members will understand that on this issue of war,
:15:49. > :15:50.an issue of conscience, I think they understand that those
:15:51. > :15:53.people thought long and hard about why they were voting.
:15:54. > :15:55.They were thinking about national security, thinking about,
:15:56. > :15:59.I think most members will understand.
:16:00. > :16:01.They might be disappointed with what they did, they might be
:16:02. > :16:07.I think they will understand that the vast majority of those
:16:08. > :16:09.members, the vast majority, did so for honourable reasons,
:16:10. > :16:11.or what they thought were honourable reasons.
:16:12. > :16:14.I think people should respect that decision.
:16:15. > :16:22.If they then go ahead and start scheming and plotting
:16:23. > :16:24.and doing all of that, then I don't know.
:16:25. > :16:28.But Corbyn himself said that those of you who voted the way you did,
:16:29. > :16:35.Well, I'm not, and my colleagues are not the kind of people
:16:36. > :16:40.who are minded to be swayed by those kinds of comments.
:16:41. > :16:42.So people who voted in favour of strikes in Syria,
:16:43. > :16:48.It isn't tittle tattle, it's about understanding
:16:49. > :16:53.I think the mood of the party is to get behind our leader and take
:16:54. > :16:58.That's what we are committed to doing.
:16:59. > :17:01.We have the Syria vote out of the way.
:17:02. > :17:03.It was a difficult moment for us as a party.
:17:04. > :17:06.We need to move on from it, come together, and get
:17:07. > :17:11.It doesn't sound like you think it rules anybody out.
:17:12. > :17:14.I think our members understand that people have principled views on both
:17:15. > :17:24.sides of the argument, and they will be respectful of that.
:17:25. > :17:27.The clashes are now less frequent and may slow to a stop,
:17:28. > :17:29.but for both sides, things could pick up again very quickly.
:17:30. > :17:32.Senior sources have confirmed to Newsnight that the party's rule
:17:33. > :17:34.book is, to use their word, "silent" on the issue
:17:35. > :17:37.of whether a sitting leader gets to stand again if challenged.
:17:38. > :17:40.Jeremy Corbyn's opponents think that if May's elections are bad,
:17:41. > :17:44.they would corral an overwhelming number of Labour MPs to call for him
:17:45. > :17:46.to go, and promote only one candidate, ensuring
:17:47. > :17:50.That's why at the September party conference, Corbyn's allies wanted
:17:51. > :17:56.We speak to two figures key behind-the-scenes.
:17:57. > :17:58.I think he's one of the most underestimated people
:17:59. > :18:01.Nobody thought he would get on the ballot.
:18:02. > :18:03.Nobody thought he would be a contender.
:18:04. > :18:05.Nobody thought he would be able to win.
:18:06. > :18:07.I think there is a small, vocal minority of people,
:18:08. > :18:10.and they have been shown to be a small minority of people,
:18:11. > :18:12.within the Parliamentary party and the party more generally,
:18:13. > :18:15.who haven't yet come to terms with Jeremy's victory,
:18:16. > :18:26.It should be very clear that the leader, the incumbent,
:18:27. > :18:28.should be able to stand in the election.
:18:29. > :18:31.But I don't think people will be looking to move against the leader
:18:32. > :18:35.The people around Jeremy, and I'm never sure if this
:18:36. > :18:37.is him himself, or people who share his politics,
:18:38. > :18:40.do seem to keep wanting to go looking for fights.
:18:41. > :18:42.Completely unnecessary when, actually, the kind of rather bruised
:18:43. > :18:47.and moderate wing of the party is not looking for a fight.
:18:48. > :18:50.But if they want to come and have a fight over the rule book,
:18:51. > :18:53.whether it's the leadership election rules, or the powers of conference,
:18:54. > :19:04.or whatever, then they will find a fight.
:19:05. > :19:07.It looks like peace might have broken out in the Labour Party
:19:08. > :19:16.For Jeremy Corbyn's opponents, the next moment of pressure
:19:17. > :19:19.will probably come the morning after May's local election results.
:19:20. > :19:21.For Jeremy Corbyn's team, the next moment of pressure
:19:22. > :19:23.will probably be around the time of the party conference
:19:24. > :19:25.when they try to change the rule book.
:19:26. > :19:27.In the meantime, crises will probably hove into view
:19:28. > :19:32.But at some point, the Labour Party has to stop fighting itself, and
:19:33. > :19:41.And now to Paris, where scores of countries are lining up to back
:19:42. > :19:45.A new draft text of the agreement being negotiated at the UN climate
:19:46. > :19:49.change talks has been released, which contains potential
:19:50. > :19:54.for ambitious targets on curbing temperatures and cutting emissions.
:19:55. > :19:57.Crucially though, are concerns the measures being laid out to get
:19:58. > :20:07.This is the copy of the document that should eventually go on to form
:20:08. > :20:13.It's not exactly easy reading but the
:20:14. > :20:17.last one was 48 pages long and this one has been slimmed down to 29.
:20:18. > :20:19.The last one had 900 brackets in it, each symbolising
:20:20. > :20:30.Three quarters of those brackets have been removed.
:20:31. > :20:33.It reflects some of the compromises that have been made over the last
:20:34. > :20:36.week and a half of negotiations but there are some real areas
:20:37. > :20:37.of disagreement here that are starting
:20:38. > :20:40.The first one, on the level of ambition.
:20:41. > :20:42.Is this document here ambitious enough?
:20:43. > :20:45.Should we be aiming to prevent global
:20:46. > :20:47.temperatures from rising above two Celsius, above preindustrial levels
:20:48. > :20:50.or should we aim, more ambitiously, for a 1.5 Celsius threshold
:20:51. > :21:04.$100 billion has been promised by 2020 to help
:21:05. > :21:07.developing countries to skip fossil fuels and move to cleaner
:21:08. > :21:10.But the mechanisms behind that have not been agreed
:21:11. > :21:17.Who pays the money has not been agreed, who gets the money.
:21:18. > :21:20.That is a big issue for some of the countries here.
:21:21. > :21:24.The third enormous issue, one that everyone disagrees
:21:25. > :21:26.on, is the discrepancy between developing countries
:21:27. > :21:31.Should the developed countries who have historically been
:21:32. > :21:33.emitting the bulk of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere,
:21:34. > :21:39.should they really bear the burden of
:21:40. > :21:43.responsibility, should they be doing the most to cut their emissions
:21:44. > :21:48.and give money to help other countries
:21:49. > :21:51.or should it be developing countries who need to do more?
:21:52. > :21:57.We can't just leave it to the developed countries,
:21:58. > :21:59.they now emit 65% of the world's greenhouse gas emissions.
:22:00. > :22:01.Should these countries be doing more and
:22:02. > :22:04.should some of the richer countries, Saudi Arabia and China,
:22:05. > :22:07.should they be contributing finance to the poorer developed countries?
:22:08. > :22:09.There's 48 hours to go and we're starting to
:22:10. > :22:13.There will be a lot of negotiating going on here into the night
:22:14. > :22:15.and they're hoping for a deal by Friday.
:22:16. > :22:26.Joining me now from the talks in Paris, which are continuing
:22:27. > :22:28.into the night, is Giza Gaspar Martins,
:22:29. > :22:33.Chair of the Least Developed Countries.
:22:34. > :22:38.Giza Gaspar Martins, thank you for joining us. The Indian spokesman
:22:39. > :22:42.said today that the wealthy world's obligations have not been met.
:22:43. > :22:45.Developing countries are not fulfilling their obligations. Do you
:22:46. > :22:52.feel that where you have reached tonight is more equal? Tonight, we
:22:53. > :23:01.have finally gotten a draft text that is more workable, that is a
:23:02. > :23:04.more workable attempt at reconciling, putting together the
:23:05. > :23:08.various policy options that we have been advocating. Obviously, there is
:23:09. > :23:13.still quite a bit of negotiation work to be done on this document and
:23:14. > :23:16.we are certainly prepared. We have been asked to stay here for the
:23:17. > :23:22.night and we are prepared to work through those issues. It is not
:23:23. > :23:27.necessarily a dichotomy between developed and developing countries.
:23:28. > :23:30.I think that what we have before us is a realisation on the part of our
:23:31. > :23:35.soul that there are tremendous sacrifices to be made, on all our
:23:36. > :23:41.parts, in order to engage in meaningful climate action. And it is
:23:42. > :23:45.about those sacrifices that we need to begin to have a conversation. And
:23:46. > :23:49.this document puts us on the right footing. You are brave to use the
:23:50. > :23:55.word sacrifice because many people at the talks do not. What does it
:23:56. > :23:59.entail? What kind of sacrifices, on the personal, individual or
:24:00. > :24:08.corporate and governmental level are involved? Firstly, we must agree.
:24:09. > :24:12.And now I think there is quite tremendous political Unison. There
:24:13. > :24:20.is a unanimous realisation that climate change is a threat, is a
:24:21. > :24:26.phenomenon that we must tackle. And we must tackle it in order to keep
:24:27. > :24:33.us all safe. Keeping us all safe means limiting global temperatures
:24:34. > :24:37.rises to 1.5 degrees. And that is where the conversation about
:24:38. > :24:41.sacrifices comes in. It certainly means that development needs to be
:24:42. > :24:45.greener, development needs to be cleaner in terms of emissions of
:24:46. > :24:49.greenhouse gases, and for it to be clean it means that we need to
:24:50. > :24:52.engage in a conversation about sharing the pools that will enable
:24:53. > :24:59.clean development. You have mentioned that figure, 1.5, do you
:25:00. > :25:07.think you will come away from this fortnight with that figure of 1.5
:25:08. > :25:15.degrees as a cap? Any agreement that seeks or aims to keep all of us safe
:25:16. > :25:20.needs to begin to look at 1.5 or below 1.5. This is not a number that
:25:21. > :25:27.we have pulled out of a hat. This is what science is informing us needs
:25:28. > :25:32.to be done. Even 1.5 degrees, the scientific consensus tells us that
:25:33. > :25:39.very many of us will not be safe. Therefore, anything above 1.5 is not
:25:40. > :25:40.fully tackling the challenges before us. Understood. Giza Gaspar-Martins,
:25:41. > :25:43.thank you very much. Now, do you describe yourself
:25:44. > :25:45.as virtuous when you eat If so, you may warm
:25:46. > :25:49.to a growing trend of those It describes a way of cooking
:25:50. > :25:53.or consuming food in as close to its natural state as possible,
:25:54. > :25:55.often avoiding gluten, dairy, sugar, fat -
:25:56. > :25:57.or, let's just say, any Proponents swear by it,
:25:58. > :26:02.and love the way they feel on it, but should we be wary of any fad
:26:03. > :26:05.that conflates puritanical consumption with the idea
:26:06. > :26:07.of being, well, "good"? Our man with a doggy
:26:08. > :26:14.bag is Stephen Smith. # My milkshake brings all the boys
:26:15. > :26:18.to the yard # And they're like,
:26:19. > :26:29.but this far into Newsnight, I'm ready for some full
:26:30. > :26:41.It's the kind of grub we associate with the fragrant Nigella.
:26:42. > :26:44.It seems she's worried that some adherents to so-called clean eating
:26:45. > :26:50.may be masking eating disorders or body issues.
:26:51. > :27:00.The folks here at Nama in West London ought to know.
:27:01. > :27:18.They have been made by dehydrating a batter of courgettes and walnuts,
:27:19. > :27:21.spreading it and dehydrating it at about 40 degrees for about 24
:27:22. > :27:26.hours until they go into solid pizza bases like this.
:27:27. > :27:31.what's wrong with the regular pizza base?
:27:32. > :27:35.There's nothing wrong with it, but because we are a raw vegan cafe,
:27:36. > :27:37.and because we try to provide food for people who have intolerances
:27:38. > :27:40.to gluten or wheat, and they can't consume them,
:27:41. > :27:47.How about some pasta made from cold raw courgette strips
:27:48. > :28:03.It's an inactive form of yeast that adds flavour to the dish.
:28:04. > :28:20.Marinating, taking up all the flavours.
:28:21. > :28:52.my body does kind of pay the price for it, and I do feel a little less
:28:53. > :28:56.Again, I don't think it's whether somebody should or shouldn't
:28:57. > :28:58.do something, it's just doing what you feel is right.
:28:59. > :29:00.If someone has wholesome raw food or vegan food,
:29:01. > :29:03.and it makes them feel great, then why not, let them
:29:04. > :29:10.My whole philosophy is about eating healthy 70% of the time and then
:29:11. > :29:13.doing whatever you want 30% of the time, because if you make it
:29:14. > :29:15.100%, it becomes completely unsustainable, and at one point that
:29:16. > :29:23.If you tell yourself you can't have it, the way our mind works,
:29:24. > :29:29.we are going to want it at some point, and then the guilt sets in.
:29:30. > :29:32.The menu at Nama makes it clear that recipes contain nuts.
:29:33. > :29:41.Nigella seems to be warning the same is true of the clean food movement.
:29:42. > :29:46.Joining me now, Alexandra Dudley, whose company makes organic,
:29:47. > :29:50.artisan seeds - and Celebrity MasterChef critic Jay Rayner.
:29:51. > :29:57.Nice to have you both here. When we were looking at their pizza base
:29:58. > :30:01.made from Walmart and organic dehydrated courgette, you said it
:30:02. > :30:10.looked yummy. Is that part of your diet? Actually, I said it slightly
:30:11. > :30:14.ironically. Raw pizza is not necessarily my meal of choice. But
:30:15. > :30:19.that is not to say I don't like all raw food. I think some of the more
:30:20. > :30:24.celebrated... Talk us through what you understand as clean eating. Take
:30:25. > :30:30.us through that. What does that mean for you? Personally, and I wasn't
:30:31. > :30:35.wearing this earlier, for me it means food that is not overly
:30:36. > :30:42.processed and is real food. So real food that you cook at home, and that
:30:43. > :30:48.includes things like butter, eggs, and I am a bit more of an advocate
:30:49. > :30:53.for a more all-rounder diet. Gluten, I don't eat gluten, I am a coeliac
:30:54. > :30:58.and I cannot eat it. I try not to eat dairy but when there is gelato,
:30:59. > :31:02.I eat dairy because I like it. I don't have yoghurt every day because
:31:03. > :31:07.it makes my skin bad and it makes me cranky and that is just what works
:31:08. > :31:11.for me. I did used to same clean eating a lot on Instagram, which was
:31:12. > :31:16.a strong social media channel for me. And I changed it, I made a
:31:17. > :31:21.conscious decision to change it a couple of months ago, mainly because
:31:22. > :31:27.I felt that what clean eating means now is a completely, it's not clean
:31:28. > :31:32.eating, it is a warped vision of what clean eating is.
:31:33. > :31:39.And it's this kind of idea of clean eating... I'm quite strong on
:31:40. > :31:44.language, and the one thing to understand why clean eating is
:31:45. > :31:49.cobblers, but at the way we talk about dirty, dirty dealing, dirty
:31:50. > :31:52.politics, dirty money, and we talk about junkies getting clean and
:31:53. > :31:57.cleaning up their act. There's a moral quality for a clean eating,
:31:58. > :32:00.they are virtuous will stop it plays into the pathology I is in the diet
:32:01. > :32:06.as a way to control the world around us. People talk about processed food
:32:07. > :32:12.as if it is evil. Throughout human history, from the moment we ground
:32:13. > :32:17.flour into wheat, we have had processed food. Really the issue is,
:32:18. > :32:22.is your diet healthy or not healthy? That's all it's about. The chef was
:32:23. > :32:26.talking about collapsing, coming off the wagon, and it has this religious
:32:27. > :32:34.overtone that you have been bad or let yourself down. Is that a worry
:32:35. > :32:38.for you? It is. It's a mega worry, it's extreme, I think. There have
:32:39. > :32:44.been some comments about the word clean eating on social media
:32:45. > :32:49.channels in particular, it being an excuse and way for people to mask
:32:50. > :32:56.eating disorders. I agree with that, hence the reason we have chosen to
:32:57. > :33:03.remove that. That's why we say it real, feel real. What does that
:33:04. > :33:07.mean? What's eating John Reel? You confessed to eating a worryingly
:33:08. > :33:15.sweaty sausage from a cart in Trafalgar Square. I eat a mixed
:33:16. > :33:20.diet. We have the dissolute almost 50-something man against the youth
:33:21. > :33:26.over here. I'm not the best proponent for this visually. Nigella
:33:27. > :33:30.is roughly my generation, and she should talk these things up. There
:33:31. > :33:37.is a joy in food. We sometimes eat terrible things. Have you ever eaten
:33:38. > :33:42.fried chicken from a high-street brand? Of course you have. Where is
:33:43. > :33:50.the shame? I've also eaten salad. It's amazing! Alexandra has as well.
:33:51. > :33:59.Have you done a KFC? Other brands are available. I'm more of a sweet
:34:00. > :34:04.girl. Do you wake up in the morning feel like you have sinned, like you
:34:05. > :34:12.have to purge? The whole idea of virtue. I have to say that, as a
:34:13. > :34:17.woman, and being in the industry I'm in, yeah, I do, often wake up and
:34:18. > :34:21.feel that way. Would you punish yourself with double the exercise or
:34:22. > :34:27.half the food? No, I tried to distance myself from those thoughts.
:34:28. > :34:34.I think we have enough of them. For my punishment I go down to the gym.
:34:35. > :34:43.So you wake up thinking, oh no? I have been a large man all my life. I
:34:44. > :34:47.have a metabolism engineered for the Russian Steppes. But I happen to
:34:48. > :34:51.live in London. I'm now a restaurant critic, but I do something by going
:34:52. > :34:56.to the gym several times a week and that's how I work it out. We have
:34:57. > :34:57.run out of time, but thank you very much.
:34:58. > :34:59.Mog the forgetful cat is, roughly speaking,
:35:00. > :35:03.But she's back at the top of the bestsellers this Christmas,
:35:04. > :35:06.resurrected in a brand new title - Mog's Christmas Calamity -
:35:07. > :35:12.to raise money for Save the Children - over ?1 million so far.
:35:13. > :35:14.Her creator, Judith Kerr, is more than twice her age
:35:15. > :35:16.but as lucid and inspirational as ever.
:35:17. > :35:19.The author of The Tiger who Came to Tea and When Hitler Stole Pink
:35:20. > :35:22.Rabbit - which describes her childhood fleeing Hitler's Germany
:35:23. > :35:25.and moving as a refugee to Paris - sat down to talk to me
:35:26. > :35:27.about what she describes as an extraordinarily lucky life -
:35:28. > :35:29.and about how that tiger first emerged.
:35:30. > :35:32.I began by asking her about her own literary journey.
:35:33. > :35:37.I was 45 when my first book was published.
:35:38. > :35:41.I had done other things before, but I always wanted to draw.
:35:42. > :35:47.The other things, like writing stuff for the BBC, were sort
:35:48. > :35:50.of accidental, because I was married to a very good scriptwriter,
:35:51. > :36:02.Because you have this other thing to think about.
:36:03. > :36:05.I think if I didn't draw I would probably have taken
:36:06. > :36:12.When people put their own interpretations
:36:13. > :36:16.on your stories, The Tiger Who Came To Tea, does it make you giggle?
:36:17. > :36:24.I read it every night for months to my son,
:36:25. > :36:27.and started imagining it was about sexual awakening
:36:28. > :36:35.I'm reliably informed I'm wrong, but that is what was going
:36:36. > :36:42.Will you tell us what was at the base of the tiger?
:36:43. > :36:47.Before my son was born, there was only my daughter and myself.
:36:48. > :36:50.She was two going on three, and Tom, my husband,
:36:51. > :36:54.was, I forget what film he was making, but he was out a lot
:36:55. > :37:00.Whereas normally he was at home writing.
:37:01. > :37:08.We had been to the zoo, so it seemed reasonable
:37:09. > :37:13.We both thought they were incredibly beautiful.
:37:14. > :37:26.You've got The Tiger Who Came To Tea, you've
:37:27. > :37:31.got a very dark book, When Hitler Stole Pink Rabbit,
:37:32. > :37:35.Do you think that you need to protect children
:37:36. > :37:38.from the realities of the world, shelter them, or show them?
:37:39. > :37:43.I didn't think about either of those.
:37:44. > :37:54.I loved being in Switzerland, especially in Paris
:37:55. > :38:02.I was talking to Tom about writing this book.
:38:03. > :38:05.He said, it can't just be about your happy childhood.
:38:06. > :38:08.Hitler has got to be on the first page.
:38:09. > :38:22.My father had been warned by a stranger to get out of Germany
:38:23. > :38:26.immediately, because they were planning to take away his passport.
:38:27. > :38:37.He was afraid that the Nazis would hang onto us to get
:38:38. > :38:42.The moment when we were able to join him.
:38:43. > :38:52.His face was white, and his eyes were searching the crowd,
:38:53. > :39:08.And then Papa, who was always so dignified, who never did anything
:39:09. > :39:12.in a hurry, suddenly ran towards them.
:39:13. > :39:18.He put his arms around Mama and hugged
:39:19. > :39:20.her, then hugged Anna and Max, hugged them all and wouldn't
:39:21. > :39:34.And you grew up in Paris, where you spent
:39:35. > :39:41.Yes, my parents were very protective, and I never really
:39:42. > :39:47.understood how awful it was for them.
:39:48. > :39:50.My mother was incredibly unhappy and I didn't notice?
:39:51. > :39:55.I only found out about it long after her
:39:56. > :40:01.There was an archive about my father, and they keep
:40:02. > :40:11.finding letters that he has written, or people have written to him,
:40:12. > :40:14.she wanted to kill not only herself, but my brother
:40:15. > :40:16.and me, to protect us.
:40:17. > :40:18.I looked at the date and I thought, I'd just managed
:40:19. > :40:20.to learn to speak French at that time.
:40:21. > :40:23.It would have been very annoying to waste all that!
:40:24. > :40:27.Looking at all that now, and your parents'
:40:28. > :40:34.experience, at the age of 92, do you feel that you are in control
:40:35. > :40:40.hard for the right for assisted dying.
:40:41. > :40:45.I have, luckily, no reason to end my life.
:40:46. > :40:48.But, I think people are coming round to the idea that if life isn't
:40:49. > :40:56.worth living any more, if you realised you had Alzheimer's,
:40:57. > :41:12.I mean, it's nobody else's business what you do at that point.
:41:13. > :41:15.You are so uplifting to talk to, and razor sharp.
:41:16. > :41:25.Half the time I can't remember the one word I need.
:41:26. > :41:47.The ridiculously lovely Judith Kerr talking to me earlier at her home.
:41:48. > :41:50.That's all we have time for, good night.