:00:00. > :00:07.Tonight, six months after Newsnight revealed Yemeni civilians could have
:00:08. > :00:10.been killed by British weapons sold to Saudi Arabia -
:00:11. > :00:18.the UK Government faces possible legal action.
:00:19. > :00:20.The UK has a very clear legal regime.
:00:21. > :00:23.That legal regime says the UK won't provide licenses for arms
:00:24. > :00:26.exports if there is a clear risk there may be violations
:00:27. > :00:32.Newsnight has the full story, including how the Foreign
:00:33. > :00:34.Secretary's interview on this programme could form
:00:35. > :00:39.And we'll speak to the former Business Secretary,
:00:40. > :00:41.who, while in government tried to stop British weapons
:00:42. > :00:49.The US Federal Reserve hikes interests for the first time
:00:50. > :00:54.We'll ask whether it could be too soon for the global economy.
:00:55. > :00:59.Our series on the faces of the migrant crisis continues.
:01:00. > :01:01.We find the Syrian father and son tripped up by
:01:02. > :01:16.When you watch this, how do you feel? Of course, I am very angry. I
:01:17. > :01:21.feel very angry. There is a very real prospect
:01:22. > :01:25.of the Government being taken to court over sales of weapons
:01:26. > :01:27.to Saudi Arabia which is leading a coalition in Yemen against rebel
:01:28. > :01:30.fighters in a conflict which has cost almost 6,000 lives,
:01:31. > :01:34.among them many civilians. The issue is whether these weapons,
:01:35. > :01:37.in particular laser guided bombs, have been involved in civilian
:01:38. > :01:40.deaths, a question that arose in a Newsnight interview
:01:41. > :01:45.with the Foreign Secretary. Now Lawyers for Campaign Against
:01:46. > :01:48.the Arms Trade says the UK Government is in breach of UK,
:01:49. > :01:53.European and International law. A separate legal opinion,
:01:54. > :01:55.prepared for Amnesty International, and seen by Newsnight,
:01:56. > :01:58.says the UK is in breach of its own legislation,
:01:59. > :02:02.including the Arms Trade Treaty, You may find some images
:02:03. > :02:15.in this film distressing. Yemen has been under almost constant
:02:16. > :02:19.bombardment since March. A coalition led by Saudi Arabia has
:02:20. > :02:23.been trying to defeat a rebel army. Both sides have been
:02:24. > :02:26.accused of war crimes. Now lawyers say Britain could be
:02:27. > :02:29.breaking the law for selling the bombs that the
:02:30. > :02:48.Saudis are dropping. On the night of July 24th,
:02:49. > :02:50.coalition warplanes repeatedly struck a residential compound
:02:51. > :02:56.in the port city of Mokha. At least 65 civilians were killed,
:02:57. > :02:59.according to human rights watch, who collected this footage
:03:00. > :03:02.and visited the site The group says the compound
:03:03. > :03:40.was merely a column to away The strike on Mokha is one of many
:03:41. > :03:48.incidents where civilians have been targeted in Saudi led air strikes.
:03:49. > :03:59.We saw remains of water bottling site that had been struck. A teenage
:04:00. > :04:04.boy was killed. The Saudi led campaign has the backing of the UN
:04:05. > :04:08.security council, which gives it legitimacy under international law.
:04:09. > :04:14.The UK supports the coalition and, along with the United States and
:04:15. > :04:17.others, has been supplying weapons used in the conflict. Attacks
:04:18. > :04:21.directed against civilians awesomely and objects constitute grave
:04:22. > :04:29.violations of international, humanitarian law. The UK has a very
:04:30. > :04:38.clearly gory shoe. That regime says the UK will not provide licenses for
:04:39. > :04:43.armed exports. -- Berry clear legal regime. The facts on the ground of
:04:44. > :04:48.what is happening in Yemen suggest there is that clear risk. The
:04:49. > :04:53.Government has continued to grant export licences for arms sales to
:04:54. > :04:56.Saudi Arabia for use in Yemen. Lawyers for the group campaigning
:04:57. > :05:02.against the Arms trade told us they will take the Government to court
:05:03. > :05:06.unless it stops. From the very beginning, the response by the
:05:07. > :05:08.British government has been to say they have received repeated
:05:09. > :05:17.assurances from the Saudis that British weapons are being used in
:05:18. > :05:19.accordance with international law. Privately, I have been told the
:05:20. > :05:23.Government lawyers and officials are very worried indeed about the
:05:24. > :05:27.possibility of a legal challenge. At issue is whether the UK has done
:05:28. > :05:32.enough to satisfy itself that British weapons are not being used
:05:33. > :05:37.to commit war crimes. That is a requirement under the arms trade
:05:38. > :05:42.Treaty which David Cameron champion Tim came into force last year. A key
:05:43. > :05:46.piece of evidence cited by the lawyers came in an interview on
:05:47. > :05:51.Newsnight with the Foreign Secretary. The Saudis deny there
:05:52. > :05:56.have been any breaches of international humanitarian law. That
:05:57. > :06:01.denial alone is not enough. We need to seek proper investigations. That
:06:02. > :06:06.admission is significant say authors of the separate legal opinion
:06:07. > :06:12.prepared by Amnesty International. The British government has confirmed
:06:13. > :06:16.it is aware of the allegations that the violations of international law
:06:17. > :06:24.are being committed on the ground in Yemen. It is also aware that the
:06:25. > :06:28.assurances being given by the Saudi authorities are perhaps not
:06:29. > :06:32.watertight. That heightens the degree of scrutiny be ought to be
:06:33. > :06:40.applying in the determination of whether any new weapons should be
:06:41. > :06:45.supplied. The 90 page legal opinion concludes: on the basis of the
:06:46. > :06:49.evidence available to ask any authorisation by the UK the transfer
:06:50. > :06:53.of weapons or other items to Saudi Arabia in circumstances where such
:06:54. > :06:58.weapons are capable of being used in the conflict in Yemen would
:06:59. > :06:58.constitute a breach by the UK of its obligations under domestic, European
:06:59. > :07:11.and international law. The Saudis have consistently denied
:07:12. > :07:17.targeting civilians. They point out their campaign comes at the request
:07:18. > :07:21.of Yemen's internationally recognised government against a
:07:22. > :07:25.rebel force, who themselves stand accused of violating the rules of
:07:26. > :07:30.war. Britain is not supplying weapons to the Huthis. A spokesman
:07:31. > :07:50.told us... Yemen is in the grip of one of the
:07:51. > :07:58.world's worst crises. Apart from the Blom -- the bombing, public aid by
:07:59. > :08:03.coalition forces has caused acute shortages. A shaky ceasefire in
:08:04. > :08:09.place since yesterday has already been violated. The Government should
:08:10. > :08:12.use its influence to make sure the ceasefire holds. We have
:08:13. > :08:17.considerable influence with the Saudi regime and the coalition.
:08:18. > :08:20.Making sure the ceasefire holds is the best way of stopping the
:08:21. > :08:25.apparent division in government policy. On the one hand blockading
:08:26. > :08:30.the ports, which is what the defence and foreign affairs are trying to
:08:31. > :08:36.do. The humanitarian and development wing in the British government is
:08:37. > :08:39.trying to get food, medicine and fuel in through the same ports. The
:08:40. > :08:43.Arms trade Treaty was supposed to make civilians save her in war
:08:44. > :08:47.zones. It was backed enthusiastically by the British
:08:48. > :08:55.government. The first test may be in Yemen, concerning the use of British
:08:56. > :08:57.weapons. We did ask the Saudi government onto the programme
:08:58. > :08:59.tonight but that request was declined.
:09:00. > :09:02.Joining me now in the studio is the former Business Secretary Sir
:09:03. > :09:05.Vince Cable, and from Geneva, Sir William Patey, the former UK
:09:06. > :09:10.Good evening used by the lawyers are clear risk.
:09:11. > :09:19.As Business Secretary can you have real concerns about the guided laser
:09:20. > :09:25.bombs. What did you do about it? Let me just go back a little bit. Very
:09:26. > :09:29.few arms contracts for Saudi Arabia and anywhere else. By me or
:09:30. > :09:36.questioned by ministers. There is a clear framework of law. There are
:09:37. > :09:40.relatively few cases that are actually very controversial. I do
:09:41. > :09:49.challenge and indeed blocked this particular sale of basically bombs
:09:50. > :09:54.for the aircraft. Largely because of a report that I had heard about
:09:55. > :09:56.for the aircraft. Largely because of the time which was uncorroborated
:09:57. > :09:56.for the aircraft. Largely because of but seemed plausible about bombing
:09:57. > :10:02.of hospitals. I challenge that. had a detailed set of conversations
:10:03. > :10:07.with government during the had a detailed set of conversations
:10:08. > :10:08.campaign. We're not in our offices. I was assured eventually, by the
:10:09. > :10:14.Defence Secretary, who went this in some detail, that British
:10:15. > :10:18.embedded personnel this in some detail, that British
:10:19. > :10:23.and we have people who are very closely involved with the
:10:24. > :10:24.and we have people who are very the Saudi air force activities on
:10:25. > :10:29.the same basis the Saudi air force activities on
:10:30. > :10:35.currently have. I was satisfied that extra measures were being put into
:10:36. > :10:40.place. The aircraft were on the runway, won't they? I was making
:10:41. > :10:43.myself unpopular by holding it up. Eventually I was given very clear
:10:44. > :10:50.assurances there would be proper oversight. That oversight committee
:10:51. > :10:55.assurances, did you take legal advice? I had legal advice within my
:10:56. > :10:59.department. There are essentially three government departments
:11:00. > :11:01.department. There are essentially involved. We are all given official
:11:02. > :11:08.and legal advice from you make involved. We are all given official
:11:09. > :11:13.decisions. You have thought this advice was watertight. Ta me your
:11:14. > :11:21.honest reaction? I was having to make a judgment on the basis of good
:11:22. > :11:26.faith. -- tell me. We were given additional safeguards.
:11:27. > :11:26.faith. -- tell me. We were given heard today that somehow civilian
:11:27. > :11:31.targets are heard today that somehow civilian
:11:32. > :11:33.bombing raids. If heard today that somehow civilian
:11:34. > :11:35.had oversight, this heard today that somehow civilian
:11:36. > :11:45.lot of people reporting with heard today that somehow civilian
:11:46. > :11:50.bottling plant and so forth, they are being bombed. Whether
:11:51. > :11:57.bottling plant and so forth, they that is with American weaponry, we
:11:58. > :12:04.do not know. In your view is it enough to go ahead? This is a legal
:12:05. > :12:09.question for the courts. I was given assurances we had sufficient
:12:10. > :12:12.oversight of the bombing activity to make sure that international
:12:13. > :12:20.humanitarian law would not be compromised. Sir William, the report
:12:21. > :12:24.tonight comes from highly respected lawyers, who believe the British
:12:25. > :12:27.government could be in breach of British European
:12:28. > :12:32.government could be in breach of law by supplying these particular
:12:33. > :12:36.weapons to Saudi Arabia. What is your response? I am not a lawyer but
:12:37. > :12:40.I imagine there is some element of deliberate targeting that needs to
:12:41. > :12:44.be there. I agree with Vince Cable. I cannot see why the Saudis would
:12:45. > :12:52.deliberately target civilians will still be contrary to what they're
:12:53. > :12:58.trying to in Yemen. There is a Security Council resolution. The
:12:59. > :13:04.Huthis are the aggressors, if you like. They are trying to push that
:13:05. > :13:08.back. I was ambassador in Afghanistan and Iraq. I know there
:13:09. > :13:14.was no deliberate targeting of civilians. You cannot guarantee that
:13:15. > :13:19.in a complex situation like Yemen, Iraq all Syria, civilians might not
:13:20. > :13:25.accidentally be hit. I imagine the legal case with hinge on deliberate
:13:26. > :13:28.targeting. I cannot see why the Saudis would deliberately target
:13:29. > :13:34.civilians. These bombs are meant to be hugely accurate. It is not as if
:13:35. > :13:40.it would be collateral damage, would it? We have seen mistakes occur.
:13:41. > :13:45.Americans have made mistakes in Iraq and Syria. It is possible that
:13:46. > :13:50.mistakes were made. The Saudis are trying to support the legitimate
:13:51. > :13:56.government in Yemen, trying to re-establish some sort of control
:13:57. > :14:00.and promote a political sentiment. Targeting civilians would have no
:14:01. > :14:12.part in that I would be foolish. Do you think the Saudis are as careful
:14:13. > :14:16.in pursuit of their goals? I do not see why they would be less careful.
:14:17. > :14:19.Britain has a very close relationship with Saudi Arabia and
:14:20. > :14:24.should be in a position to advise and to work with them. I suspect the
:14:25. > :14:30.British governor will be talking to the Saudis and seeking the
:14:31. > :14:35.reassurances of the measures, they have put in place. -- the British
:14:36. > :14:40.government. I have seen statements about measures that are in place to
:14:41. > :14:45.try to ensure there are no civilian casualties. I suppose there will be
:14:46. > :14:54.close scrutiny of what these measures are. These are civilian
:14:55. > :14:58.casualties in hospitals and they do turn out to be as a result of
:14:59. > :15:05.British weapons being dropped, would you be comfortable with that?
:15:06. > :15:10.Well, if they were deliberately targeted it would be unacceptable.
:15:11. > :15:17.That would be the issue. And if they were attributable to Saudi as
:15:18. > :15:21.strikes and two British equipment. Let me put that to Vince Cable.
:15:22. > :15:26.Would you make that distinction when you see what has actually been
:15:27. > :15:31.happening in Yemen, between deliberate targeting and collateral
:15:32. > :15:36.damage, the line between them, are you comfortable with that? As Sir
:15:37. > :15:41.William Patey said, there is a difficult balance to be struck. I
:15:42. > :15:46.would have thought that prudent military activity would not just be
:15:47. > :15:52.avoiding deliberate targeting, it would be taking all proper effort to
:15:53. > :15:56.avoid collateral civilian damage. They should be doing more than just
:15:57. > :16:02.not targeting. Given how central to the Saudis' Arsenal are British
:16:03. > :16:08.bombs and how important they are to our export trade... It is more than
:16:09. > :16:14.just bombs, it is a vast amount of equipment. Yes. Do you think Britain
:16:15. > :16:19.imposes the same standards with the Saudis as they do with other
:16:20. > :16:23.countries? I think there is growing discomfort that we are very highly
:16:24. > :16:26.dependent on Saudi Arabia in a variety of areas, not just on the
:16:27. > :16:32.supply of equipment, but for regional security, and issues around
:16:33. > :16:36.human rights which Michael Gove gave vent to a few weeks ago. I think
:16:37. > :16:41.even within this Conservative government you have ministers who
:16:42. > :16:45.think, actually we are being over compromised by having this
:16:46. > :16:50.overdependence. Any relationship has to be in balance. Did you have
:16:51. > :16:54.worries or discomfort over the nature of the relationship and how
:16:55. > :17:00.it was conducted when you were Business Secretary, and indeed
:17:01. > :17:04.before? Well, I had no problem with us exporting kit to Saudi Arabia. I
:17:05. > :17:09.was a champion of British manufacturing industry and this was
:17:10. > :17:13.part of it. I did worry that we were becoming overdependent in a variety
:17:14. > :17:17.of different ways and it was inhibiting our ability to say what
:17:18. > :17:21.needed to be said. And so in terms of saying what needs to be said, do
:17:22. > :17:25.you think now there should be an independent inquiry at least, given
:17:26. > :17:29.the nature of the allegations, and given the seniority of the lawyers
:17:30. > :17:34.that are making them? Well, now presumably there will be a legal
:17:35. > :17:39.process, and that has to happen. There is a very good select
:17:40. > :17:42.committee in the House of Commons which is set up specifically to
:17:43. > :17:48.pursue issues around arms export licensing. I think they are the
:17:49. > :17:51.appropriate body to look at this. In that film, Ian Gatehouse said his
:17:52. > :17:56.understanding was that government lawyers are very uncomfortable about
:17:57. > :18:01.this. Do you think the government is in some discomfort? I do not know. I
:18:02. > :18:05.was there seven months ago. It was an own comfortable subject at the
:18:06. > :18:11.time. But a vast amount more is now known. At that stage we only had
:18:12. > :18:16.some fragmentary reports. Janet Yellen has learned her place in US
:18:17. > :18:21.history by announcing the first hike in rates in almost a decade. The
:18:22. > :18:25.impact might be more psychological than anything else. She said it
:18:26. > :18:31.reflected the confidence of the committee that the economy would
:18:32. > :18:33.continue to strengthen. She cited lower-than-expected inflation
:18:34. > :18:40.figures among other factors for the decision.
:18:41. > :18:49.The financial crisis of the late 2000s was centred on American banks.
:18:50. > :18:53.Today, the US passed a milestone in recovery. The Federal Reserve,
:18:54. > :18:57.America's central bank, raised interest rates for the first time
:18:58. > :19:05.since 2006. It is a first small step back to normal. So,. The recent
:19:06. > :19:10.history of US interest rates. When the line is low, rates are low. This
:19:11. > :19:14.means that banks can borrow cheaply overnight. That gets passed on into
:19:15. > :19:19.the real economy. So, in the early 1980s, the Fed raised these
:19:20. > :19:22.borrowing costs, taking the heat out of the economy and cutting
:19:23. > :19:26.inflation. Conversely, rates got slashed as the financial crisis
:19:27. > :19:32.unfolded. They went down to historic low rates for an unprecedented long
:19:33. > :19:37.time. So why are they being raised now? The Fed only worries about two
:19:38. > :19:42.big things. First of all come US inflation, which has been very low,
:19:43. > :19:46.but it has just risen to about 2% on the Fed's preferred measure. They
:19:47. > :19:52.are starting to worry about that. The second thing is unemployment. It
:19:53. > :19:57.was at about 10% back in 2010. Now it is just 5%. So the Fed feels that
:19:58. > :20:00.all things considered it is now safe to start withdrawing the stimulus
:20:01. > :20:04.which has been keeping the US economy going. If we keep interest
:20:05. > :20:09.rates down for too long, the pressures on the economy will
:20:10. > :20:12.continue to build up. So we will get a bigger build-up in inflationary
:20:13. > :20:17.pressures and possible financial bubbles. Both of those things could
:20:18. > :20:21.cause interest rates to rise more sharply in the future. So if the Fed
:20:22. > :20:25.wants to raise interest rates in a gradual fashion, it must start
:20:26. > :20:28.sooner rather than later. What really matters now is how fast the
:20:29. > :20:34.Fed raises rates and what the market expects. The Fed gets its
:20:35. > :20:39.rate-setting committee to predict how they think rates will rise. So
:20:40. > :20:42.each committee member puts dot showing how high they expect rates
:20:43. > :20:46.to be at the end of each year. So you can see they all expect rates to
:20:47. > :20:52.rise from this year to next and so on. Note two things. First of all
:20:53. > :20:57.come these rate rises are actually very slow. This is a gradual
:20:58. > :21:02.phasing, about half the pace of the last round of Fed hikes. Secondly,
:21:03. > :21:09.this last column is their long-term estimate. They all crowd around
:21:10. > :21:16.3.5%. And that is really low, about 1.5% off the long run Fed average.
:21:17. > :21:21.US monetary policy will be followed very widely. Higher interest rates
:21:22. > :21:25.encourage investors to pull out of riskier sectors and markets across
:21:26. > :21:27.the world. And those of us in countries which are a little way
:21:28. > :21:30.behind should watch particularly carefully. We have to return to
:21:31. > :21:31.normal as well. I'm joined now by Professor Danny
:21:32. > :21:34.Blanchflower, former member of the Bank of England's
:21:35. > :21:37.own rate-setting Monetary Policy Committee, and Gillian Tett,
:21:38. > :21:48.US Managing Editor of First of all, Danny Blanchflower,
:21:49. > :21:55.they were unanimous about this - other conditions right for a rate
:21:56. > :21:57.rise? Well, the surprise was that they actually were unanimous. But
:21:58. > :22:00.rise? Well, the surprise was that you look at the remake to which the
:22:01. > :22:07.Fed has, with the worries about inflation
:22:08. > :22:09.Fed has, with the worries about rates right now. Big deal is, the
:22:10. > :22:20.Fed is using its forecast and saying, we think
:22:21. > :22:24.Fed is using its forecast and really believe them. So why have
:22:25. > :22:27.they done it then? There is not much difference from a
:22:28. > :22:28.they done it then? There is not much ago? I would say it is different
:22:29. > :22:31.they done it then? There is not much the sense that the market
:22:32. > :22:34.expectation in September was actually that they were not going to
:22:35. > :22:37.go up. The market was expecting them to go now, so the surprise would
:22:38. > :22:43.have been if they hadn't. to go now, so the surprise would
:22:44. > :22:50.pushed themselves into this move. Is this a turning point, do you think?
:22:51. > :22:54.I think it is a very important moment, because they are desperate
:22:55. > :22:58.to show that they can get back to a world where monetary policy begins
:22:59. > :23:04.to look a bit more normal, or at least a bit less completely weird.
:23:05. > :23:08.Over the last five years we have become used to this world where
:23:09. > :23:12.weirdness seems normal. We have had zero rates and incredible
:23:13. > :23:15.distortions in the markets which everybody is ignoring because they
:23:16. > :23:18.have got used to it so much. If the Fed wants to
:23:19. > :23:18.have got used to it so much. If the psychological block that we have to
:23:19. > :23:28.stop living in this weird world and psychological block that we have to
:23:29. > :23:30.money has a price... So actually it will not make
:23:31. > :23:34.money has a price... So actually it the economy? The crucial question
:23:35. > :23:36.now is what happens next. Firstly, can they actually implement this
:23:37. > :23:40.so-called rate rise? can they actually implement this
:23:41. > :23:43.money markets are so distorted, it can they actually implement this
:23:44. > :23:47.is not clear they can actually get the normal levers to work.
:23:48. > :23:49.is not clear they can actually get what are they going to do with this
:23:50. > :23:54.massively bloated Fed balance sheet they now have, four times bigger
:23:55. > :23:58.than it was before 2008? Can it go back on a diet and slim down?
:23:59. > :24:04.Question lots of us be asking over Christmas. Thirdly, how quickly is
:24:05. > :24:12.it actually turn followed today 's supposed rise by more rises, is it a
:24:13. > :24:17.one-off? This whole impact which it is going to have, with better
:24:18. > :24:21.interests in America than in the emerging markets, people are going
:24:22. > :24:27.to be taking their money out of those markets, India, and putting it
:24:28. > :24:34.back in America? Gillian is right about the risks, but actually there
:24:35. > :24:37.have been 28 cases in the last seven years where central banks have
:24:38. > :24:42.raised rates, and in all cases, they have actually had to cut them later.
:24:43. > :24:46.That is a worry. And right now, this is going to have an effect on
:24:47. > :24:50.emerging markets, on corporate bond yields, the manufacturing sector
:24:51. > :24:54.will be impacted by the rise in the dollar. So the worry is actually,
:24:55. > :25:00.this does not work at all and what we will see down the road is not
:25:01. > :25:03.just a return fire a cut but maybe even a cut to negative, which is
:25:04. > :25:10.what we have seen at the ECB, the Swiss central bank and other places.
:25:11. > :25:15.So if this does not work, we are in trouble. American homeowners,
:25:16. > :25:20.Gillian Tett, have been used to this cheap money. Even a small rise like
:25:21. > :25:26.this could put some of them, who are borrowing to the hilt, in trouble?
:25:27. > :25:30.Absolutely. Banks spoke to me the other day and said,,, if you are
:25:31. > :25:34.thinking about getting a mortgage, get it now. But you have to keep it
:25:35. > :25:38.in proportion. This is still a very small hike. In some ways it is long
:25:39. > :25:44.overdue I would say because people have got used to alter cheap money.
:25:45. > :25:48.But the big question, as Danny says, is how the rest of the world now
:25:49. > :25:52.reacts. It is not just the emerging markets, it is also the fact that
:25:53. > :25:55.you could be seeing the European central bank embarking on more news
:25:56. > :25:59.and in in the coming months which could create a real potential for
:26:00. > :26:06.knock-on effects in the foreign exchange markets. -- more loosening
:26:07. > :26:10.in the coming months. And what happens in Britain? In Britain they
:26:11. > :26:15.will have to sit for a very long time, as I have been saying for
:26:16. > :26:19.seven years, because in the UK there is so many people on variable rate
:26:20. > :26:23.mortgages. As soon as you start to raise rates it hurts people's
:26:24. > :26:26.ability to pay and it hurts house prices and it hurts the banks. So
:26:27. > :26:32.the Bank of England is to sit pat for a long time. Is there a problem
:26:33. > :26:37.being addict to two cheap money? Well, clearly there is. It caused
:26:38. > :26:42.all kinds of distortions. But the problem is that the shock we have is
:26:43. > :26:45.so much greater, so as soon as you try to resolve it by a rate rise,
:26:46. > :26:49.there are all kinds of crazy things which go on. The reason is, we did
:26:50. > :26:54.not really have a plan on the way in. It was unique times. We voted
:26:55. > :27:00.for quantitative easing, as I did. It was very scary. You do not know
:27:01. > :27:05.the way out, either, so, they are having to follow the data and cross
:27:06. > :27:06.their fingers and hope. We are really there, crossing fingers and
:27:07. > :27:08.hoping economics. David Cameron has told the commons
:27:09. > :27:12.that the government has met its target to resettle one
:27:13. > :27:15.thousand Syrian refugees by the end of the year - a year when some
:27:16. > :27:18.of the most visceral and memorable images on our screens
:27:19. > :27:20.and in newspapers have been From new born babies to great
:27:21. > :27:24.grandparents fleeing, there have been extraordinary scenes
:27:25. > :27:26.and heartbreaking stories. Tonight we have the third and final
:27:27. > :27:29.film in Katie Razzall's series When you watch this,
:27:30. > :27:54.how do you feel? Osama and his young son Zaid brought
:27:55. > :28:06.down by a camerawoman's foot. Do you think it was
:28:07. > :28:10.an accident or on purpose? When you say he has been
:28:11. > :28:59.injured, is it more The Hungarian camerawoman
:29:00. > :29:32.who tripped them appeared to symbolise Hungary's
:29:33. > :29:34.hostility to migrants. She apologised, saying
:29:35. > :29:37.she had acted in self-defence. But Osama was oblivious
:29:38. > :29:43.to the furore. In what looks on the surface
:29:44. > :29:59.like a fairy tale ending for them, Osama and his two sons
:30:00. > :30:02.are now in Spain. Global outrage led to a job offer
:30:03. > :30:05.for the Syrian football coach from a Spanish football club -
:30:06. > :30:09.and an apartment. When you first arrived
:30:10. > :31:33.in Spain, what struck you? It's the first time -
:31:34. > :31:35.I have been talking to you for a long time,
:31:36. > :31:39.it is the first time you have smiled There are reasons to smile,
:31:40. > :31:48.but it is not that simple. Osama's wife and two
:31:49. > :31:51.other children are stuck in Turkey, to where
:31:52. > :31:53.the family first fled. Life has thrown many
:31:54. > :31:56.hazards their way. They come from a town in north-east
:31:57. > :31:59.Syria which was under Assad attack Britain has recently
:32:00. > :32:29.begun air strikes against What do you think of what's
:32:30. > :32:34.happening now in the Syrian I think that it is very
:32:35. > :33:09.bad, the war in Syria. War drove the exodus
:33:10. > :33:11.to Europe, and this migrant's I read an interview
:33:12. > :33:19.with you from before where you said, Now, a few months on,
:33:20. > :33:25.do you feel you could forgive her, Of course I think yes, because I now
:33:26. > :33:37.forgive this accident. And I am looking for
:33:38. > :33:41.the future of my family For now, though, football has
:33:42. > :34:03.helped him maintain hope. His flight from Syria
:34:04. > :34:06.with his youngest child in his arms caught the world's attention
:34:07. > :34:09.for all the wrong reasons. What nobody knew, though,
:34:10. > :34:12.was that as well as Zaid, Osama was carrying a very
:34:13. > :34:15.precious possession. When I look at you
:34:16. > :34:18.there, you are not carrying very much of course
:34:19. > :34:21.because you have walk. Some T-shirts for
:34:22. > :34:27.Zaid, and some food. It is proof you really
:34:28. > :34:47.like football. Some of the most haunting images
:34:48. > :34:57.of the refugee crisis have And one photographer
:34:58. > :35:00.above all others has given us defining pictures of conflict over
:35:01. > :35:03.the past sixty years. Don McCullin turned eighty last
:35:04. > :35:07.month and spent his birthday in Iraq, under fire as he captured
:35:08. > :35:10.on camera, the retaking the town of Baiji from so called IS by Iraqi
:35:11. > :35:15.fighters.He has photographed everything from the building
:35:16. > :35:18.of the Berlin Wall, to Vietnam to the destruction of Palmyra,
:35:19. > :35:21.but also series of beautiful landscapes around the world and has
:35:22. > :35:24.a new exhibition and book to celebrate his
:35:25. > :35:28.extraordinary body of work. Evan went to meet him
:35:29. > :35:31.and asked him whether his view I feel slightly defeated by the work
:35:32. > :35:36.I have done in the past. I thought, I used to
:35:37. > :35:40.get right up close to things and show people how terrible
:35:41. > :35:43.it was to see a child starving to death, or a man with half his jaw
:35:44. > :35:49.missing or legs missing. I thought, I'm going
:35:50. > :35:51.to make sure that people look at my photographs
:35:52. > :35:54.and they understand what the real I'm thinking that may have changed
:35:55. > :36:00.society but that hasn't really. I have almost convinced myself that
:36:01. > :36:13.what I have done in the past hasn't We're still looking at appalling
:36:14. > :36:16.atrocities round the world. As quick as one war
:36:17. > :36:20.has gone, another is in the waiting to come and repeat
:36:21. > :36:26.itself all over again. We have seen the picture of the boy
:36:27. > :36:32.washed up on the beach in Turkey. It really did seem to demonstrate
:36:33. > :36:35.the power of a photograph, The extraordinary thing
:36:36. > :36:41.about the photograph, without being crude,
:36:42. > :36:44.it was without blood. It was the sheer dangling legs
:36:45. > :36:49.of that three-year-old It had another way of
:36:50. > :36:55.presenting the tragedy to us. It changed the thinking
:36:56. > :37:01.of people about migration, Tell me what the rules
:37:02. > :37:10.are for your profession? Obviously you are going in,
:37:11. > :37:16.taking photographs of people in very vulnerable and
:37:17. > :37:21.unpleasant situations. What are the rules of your
:37:22. > :37:24.engagement with those people? Why would you expect immunity
:37:25. > :37:41.from Downing Street? You don't have the right
:37:42. > :37:45.in the second place to take people's photographs, to lean over them
:37:46. > :37:47.when they are dying or starving. Anyway, I have a huge
:37:48. > :37:49.conscience about what I did in the past because I'm alive,
:37:50. > :37:53.I'm healthy, and I knew that some I walked into a school one
:37:54. > :37:57.day and found 800 dying I know many of the children
:37:58. > :38:02.wouldn't have survived two or three days after I left
:38:03. > :38:05.that establishment. I can still talk about it
:38:06. > :38:10.with clarity because I will One of your most
:38:11. > :38:14.famous photos is the American Marine in Vietnam
:38:15. > :38:19.with a shell-shocked face. That is actually the cover
:38:20. > :38:25.of the book of your photos. Have you been able to
:38:26. > :38:33.stay in touch with him? Does he know his photo has
:38:34. > :38:37.reached such prominence? I only knew him for
:38:38. > :38:40.the moment I took five But he was a soldier,
:38:41. > :38:43.he was a human being. But, compared with the civilian
:38:44. > :38:49.casualties that bear the brunt of war these days, who nobody helps,
:38:50. > :38:52.nobody cares about, they are always the last to be informed that tragedy
:38:53. > :38:57.is coming to destroy their homes That soldier would have
:38:58. > :39:02.been taken care of by My biggest fear
:39:03. > :39:05.about that photograph I go to get the
:39:06. > :39:13.information and bring Basically, I am really
:39:14. > :39:20.the carrier pigeon. The public, if we
:39:21. > :39:22.are honest, and I'm guessing this because I see
:39:23. > :39:24.what the public buys They are more interested in looking
:39:25. > :39:33.at pictures of life victors This is my biggest
:39:34. > :39:40.contention in life. We show more interest,
:39:41. > :39:46.as you isely said, the victors, This narcissism that has
:39:47. > :39:54.crept into our society. I suppose you have to blame
:39:55. > :39:57.the proprietors who sell They really do not need to be
:39:58. > :40:05.trading in tragedy in their lives. They would much prefer
:40:06. > :40:11.to make money and all make it sanitised and jolly
:40:12. > :40:14.and what a wonderful world Which is a totally
:40:15. > :40:16.false picture, really. Are you someone who feels the world
:40:17. > :40:19.is empowered by digital technology and the smartphone
:40:20. > :40:22.that takes pictures? There is more communication
:40:23. > :40:25.than we have ever dreamed of. Are we being fooled
:40:26. > :40:34.by what we are seeing and receiving? Are we on the right
:40:35. > :40:38.kind of wavelengths? I'm not saying this because I feel
:40:39. > :40:44.my photographic work has failed, where it should have
:40:45. > :40:50.gone, because I'm still holding out. Finally tonight, you can't
:40:51. > :40:57.have missed the fact that the new Star Wars movie
:40:58. > :41:00.is premiering tonight - what with the rolling news coverage
:41:01. > :41:02.and days of free publicity. Thank goodness we've managed
:41:03. > :41:06.to avoid all that here.