:00:00. > :00:07.The Prime Minister allows his Cabinet a free vote on Europe.
:00:08. > :00:11.Is everyone now having a go at new politics?
:00:12. > :00:14.There will be a clear government position,
:00:15. > :00:17.but it will be open to individual ministers to take a different,
:00:18. > :00:20.personal position, while remaining part of the government.
:00:21. > :00:24.But only once he's finished negotiating with EU leaders.
:00:25. > :00:36.Has Corbyn resisted the urge to purge?
:00:37. > :00:43.And should you have the right not to put your gender on a form?
:00:44. > :00:45.We speak to one who believes the system is antiquated
:00:46. > :01:00.Is the trans movement the next civil rights frontier?
:01:01. > :01:01.Perhaps this new politics thing really is catching.
:01:02. > :01:04.Today, the Prime Minister bowed to pressure from his cabinet
:01:05. > :01:06.colleagues and agreed to allow government ministers to campaign
:01:07. > :01:08.to leave the European Union - in direct opposition
:01:09. > :01:12.Mr Cameron wants to keep Britain within the EU and believes he can
:01:13. > :01:16.provide a compelling case for it - if he succeeds in getting EU leaders
:01:17. > :01:21.The opening up of the debate - which will in essence allow not just
:01:22. > :01:41.back benchers but those he works alongside -
:01:42. > :01:44.The Prime Minister hopes that will be by the middle of February.
:01:45. > :01:59.As an unexpectedly victorious David Cameron bathed in the applause of
:02:00. > :02:07.his new MPs and the warm sunshine last May there was one big headache
:02:08. > :02:11.on the horizon. Take's nightmare is not that he loses this referendum,
:02:12. > :02:16.although that would be pretty bad. Nor is it that he fails to negotiate
:02:17. > :02:23.a deal with his European partners. The EU is after all pretty good at
:02:24. > :02:26.creative ambiguity. No, his real nightmare is this EU referendum is
:02:27. > :02:32.the rock on which the Conservative Party is dashed, wrecked from a
:02:33. > :02:36.natural party of government into an incoherent squabbling rabble. It was
:02:37. > :02:40.into chillier air that the Prime Minister stepped this afternoon on
:02:41. > :02:44.his way to tell the commons that Ministers would be free to campaign
:02:45. > :02:48.anyway they chose. It is in the nature of a referendum that it is
:02:49. > :02:52.the people, not the politicians, who decide. As I indicated before
:02:53. > :02:53.Christmas, there will be a clear Government position, but it will be
:02:54. > :02:58.open to individual Ministers to take a different personal position while
:02:59. > :03:02.remaining a different personal position while
:03:03. > :03:05.previous Prime Minister made a different personal position while
:03:06. > :03:12.the Europe referendum of a different personal position while
:03:13. > :03:22.unique problem. This is a case where all parties are divided, and the
:03:23. > :03:22.unique problem. This is a case where disaster. Labour cabinet colleagues
:03:23. > :03:32.freed from collective -- to disaster. Labour cabinet colleagues
:03:33. > :03:34.argument as nonsense. Part disaster. Labour cabinet colleagues
:03:35. > :03:36.calculation then as now is that the losers will only accept the result
:03:37. > :03:40.of the referendum if they deem losers will only accept the result
:03:41. > :03:44.fight fair. I want to see a fair fight so that I can feel that
:03:45. > :03:47.whatever the result it is an honest reflection of the British people's
:03:48. > :03:50.views and then we can get on with the rest of the Government's agenda,
:03:51. > :03:54.which is significant. There are lots of other things we need to be
:03:55. > :03:58.getting on with as well as Europe. David Cameron has another
:03:59. > :04:01.calculation. The largely Euro-sceptic Conservative Party
:04:02. > :04:05.membership may well pick as his successor someone who has campaigned
:04:06. > :04:10.to leave the EU. And he doesn't want tall the potential candidates to
:04:11. > :04:17.have to resign from his Government to do so. But one veteran of past
:04:18. > :04:22.Conservative Party euro battles thinks this is a mistake. A pity
:04:23. > :04:25.he's been forced to make it. We need a strong, unified Government to
:04:26. > :04:30.handle some very difficult problems we face in the wilder world and in
:04:31. > :04:33.providing a proper recovery and the base for a modern economy. To have
:04:34. > :04:39.people insisting on staying in office in that Government but free
:04:40. > :04:43.to attack their own Government on key and fundamental policy is quite
:04:44. > :04:46.difficult. It's most unfortunate that his rebels have
:04:47. > :04:50.difficult. It's most unfortunate this situation. The Prime Minister
:04:51. > :04:55.does appear to have changed his mind on this from a year ago. Would you
:04:56. > :04:59.give Cabinet Ministers and other Conservatives who want to campaign
:05:00. > :05:01.for an out, the freedom to do so in such a referendum? Well with, there
:05:02. > :05:05.are conservative members of Parliament who want to leave the
:05:06. > :05:09.European Union come what may. But if you are part of the Government you
:05:10. > :05:14.are clearly part of the team that's aiming for the renegotiation... But
:05:15. > :05:19.for one Conservative minded to vote to leave the EU, this is the only
:05:20. > :05:24.sensible solution. I think it would've been very difficult to
:05:25. > :05:27.create a kind of a temporary Government during the referendum
:05:28. > :05:30.campaign. Having a Secretary of State for transport or defence
:05:31. > :05:35.perhaps for only six months, I don't think that would have been
:05:36. > :05:38.practical. So being able to continue the role of Government, the
:05:39. > :05:40.continuity of people who are experienced and know what they are
:05:41. > :05:45.doing I think is really important. David Cameron only promised this
:05:46. > :05:48.referendum to try to prevent his party tearing itself apart
:05:49. > :05:50.referendum to try to prevent his Europe. He has made a similar
:05:51. > :05:55.judgment in allowing Ministers to campaign to leave the EU if they
:05:56. > :05:59.want to. But keeping the inevitable public arguments in check will now
:06:00. > :06:05.prove a significant test for his leadership.
:06:06. > :06:07.A vote is ongoing in the Commons right now so our guest,
:06:08. > :06:10.the leading Eurosceptic Liam Fox, will join us from College Green
:06:11. > :06:13.in a moment - though sadly not in discussion with our studio guest
:06:14. > :06:15.here, the Europhile former Conservative Home Secretary,
:06:16. > :06:25.Thank you for coming in Ken Clarke. Presumably you see this as a sign of
:06:26. > :06:29.confidence in the Prime Minister that he feels able to make this
:06:30. > :06:36.decision? Well, he has got a difficult problem on his hands, how
:06:37. > :06:40.to have a referendum without making divisions in the party worse. For
:06:41. > :06:45.the remainder of this Parliament to tackle all the many terrible
:06:46. > :06:50.problems the country is facing. I potentially think it is a great pity
:06:51. > :06:54.that the rebels have threatened resignation and forced limb to make
:06:55. > :06:58.this concession. So you think it's a sign of weakness then? Well,
:06:59. > :07:02.probably he had no choice. Harold Wilson had no choice. He didn't want
:07:03. > :07:06.his Ministers to go out and start campaigning with each other, and he
:07:07. > :07:10.was never able to put the party together again. The party split
:07:11. > :07:14.irrevocably in the years that followed. Does this strike you as
:07:15. > :07:18.the end of what he has called collective responsibility? He is
:07:19. > :07:22.obviously suspending collective responsibility for an unknown period
:07:23. > :07:26.of time, some months by the sound of it. We are going to have a
:07:27. > :07:30.Government in which probably two or three members are opening
:07:31. > :07:33.criticising one of the most, the Government's most important, as
:07:34. > :07:38.David said, clear recommendations to the public. And he he said no
:07:39. > :07:41.campaigning until after the renegotiation. Yes, there's a long
:07:42. > :07:48.lapse between that and the referendum result. Throughout that
:07:49. > :07:51.time, presumably now great pressure will be put by Euro-sceptic
:07:52. > :07:56.enthusiasts in the House of Commons on other Ministers to spend those
:07:57. > :07:59.months disagreeing with the Government on the recommendation
:08:00. > :08:04.about what is the best basis for our voice in the world. How we are going
:08:05. > :08:09.to influence mainly events and... Do you think they'll break the ground
:08:10. > :08:12.rules? No, he said, as far as I understand it, tell me if I
:08:13. > :08:16.misunderstood it, but I was listening to him. I think he said
:08:17. > :08:20.once he has concluded the negotiations then in the months or
:08:21. > :08:26.two which will follow that... They can do it? They are quite free to
:08:27. > :08:28.say they don't agree with the Government's policy when they are
:08:29. > :08:34.serving as Ministers in the Government. And you think this puts
:08:35. > :08:39.your own cause at a disadvantage? No, I just think it makes the
:08:40. > :08:42.Government in a, you know, very difficult position. It will be very
:08:43. > :08:46.difficult for other countries to understand why they are dealing with
:08:47. > :08:54.Ministers who are openly campaigning against one of the Government's
:08:55. > :08:58.important policy recommendations. Presumably the Minister in office
:08:59. > :09:02.will continue with European meetings and policies with the Government,
:09:03. > :09:07.when openly back home they are stating they'll recommend that the
:09:08. > :09:15.country should leave. So you do think it would be detrimental to
:09:16. > :09:20.those who want to stay in the EU then? You are going to interview
:09:21. > :09:26.Liam Fox. We served in a cabinet together in a friendly way. All of
:09:27. > :09:30.us have to make a compromise sometimes. A man isn't born who
:09:31. > :09:36.agrees with everything his colleagues are doing. But if it is
:09:37. > :09:39.outside your area you stay quiet on it and accept collective
:09:40. > :09:44.responsibility. If it is a matter of principle you do what any Minister
:09:45. > :09:47.would have done in the past, you resign and you forcefully put your
:09:48. > :09:52.views from the backbenches. What do you think will be the long-term
:09:53. > :09:56.fallout from this? If it is part of what's going be a growing problem in
:09:57. > :10:00.the next few months of keeping the Government together. And having a
:10:01. > :10:05.strong and united Government thereafter. Unfortunately for us the
:10:06. > :10:11.Labour Party's in an even bigger mess on collective unity on the
:10:12. > :10:13.other side of the House. It is not surprisingly a unique situation in
:10:14. > :10:17.Parliament which I don't think anybody has seen before. The British
:10:18. > :10:22.constitution has never coped with this before. Ken Clarke, thank you.
:10:23. > :10:25.Let's put some of those points to Liam Fox, who joins us from College
:10:26. > :10:29.Green. Is it going to be very difficult for David Cameron to keep
:10:30. > :10:33.the party together? If this is, as Ken Clarke claims, the end of
:10:34. > :10:37.collective responsibility? No, I think he has made the decision that
:10:38. > :10:41.will make it easier to keep the party together in the longer term.
:10:42. > :10:45.The referendum's going to last between the end of the negotiation
:10:46. > :10:49.and the date of the referendum itself, about three months we reckon
:10:50. > :10:53.from what the Prime Minister was saying today. After that the
:10:54. > :10:56.Conservatives will have to govern up to 2020, another three-and-a-half
:10:57. > :10:59.years. I think the choice facing the Prime Minister was either does he
:11:00. > :11:03.give Ministers in that three-month period the chance to say what they
:11:04. > :11:07.want, given that it is not a normal piece of political activity with
:11:08. > :11:09.Government legislation. It's a vote that every individual will have
:11:10. > :11:13.across the country. And those Ministers will have to be answerable
:11:14. > :11:16.to their voters and to their constituency associations who want
:11:17. > :11:20.to know what they have to say. How can you carry on with Government
:11:21. > :11:24.business in Europe, as Ken Clarke has explained, when all those
:11:25. > :11:26.European leaders will be knowing and hearing exactly what you are
:11:27. > :11:29.thinking about Europe? Well, that's one of the things you have to do in
:11:30. > :11:33.a democracy. They'll have to understand that's how we operate.
:11:34. > :11:38.We've not had a referendum on this issue. Since 1975. No-one under 58
:11:39. > :11:43.in this country has ever had a say on the European issue - it's time we
:11:44. > :11:46.had it. That will provide some hiccups temporarily in the way the
:11:47. > :11:50.Government operates. The alternative for the Prime Minister to what he
:11:51. > :11:53.did today is to say fine, you have the leave the Government, there is
:11:54. > :11:56.then a reshuffle in that three months, and then the Prime Minister
:11:57. > :12:00.has to consider the Government after that. That I think would have had a
:12:01. > :12:04.greater impact upon the coherence of Government in the longer term. The
:12:05. > :12:07.Prime Minister made the right decision. How many cabinet
:12:08. > :12:11.colleagues do you think we are talking about here? Well, I think
:12:12. > :12:14.most of the Westminster commentators would accept that maybe three might
:12:15. > :12:18.have resigned. I think now they are going to be the allowed a greater
:12:19. > :12:22.say we'll see a bigger number, maybe six or seven, perhaps more. We'll
:12:23. > :12:25.see a large number in the parliamentary party, as we've seen
:12:26. > :12:30.this week, including the new intake of MPs. The youngest ones, many of
:12:31. > :12:35.them favour leaving too. And they are not rebels. This is a perfectly
:12:36. > :12:38.legitimate view to have. We said in our manifesto we would have a
:12:39. > :12:43.referendum so that every citizen in our country could have a say on
:12:44. > :12:46.their future in Europe. Where they wanted written's destiny to be
:12:47. > :12:49.determined. Ey wanted written's destiny to be
:12:50. > :12:54.determined. -- Britain's destiny to be determined. Is it reasonable, is
:12:55. > :12:57.there such a thing as a moderate level of campaigning on something
:12:58. > :13:01.you feel so strongly about? Where I agree with Ken and the point I've
:13:02. > :13:07.tried to make in recent weeks is we will have to govern together for the
:13:08. > :13:10.second half of this decade. How difficult or how easy that will be
:13:11. > :13:14.for us will be largely determined how well we treat one another in the
:13:15. > :13:17.run-up to that referendum and how we conduct ourselves. I think that we
:13:18. > :13:21.should recognise that we are allowed to have different views on this. It
:13:22. > :13:24.is not Government versus rebels as it might have been in the Maastricht
:13:25. > :13:29.debates in the material '90s. Everyone is free to have the view
:13:30. > :13:33.they believe is in the national interest. If we do that and treat
:13:34. > :13:37.one another with respect and understand that those are want to
:13:38. > :13:41.stay are not traitors, those who want to leave aren't idiots. We have
:13:42. > :13:45.to have a grown-up, respectful debate, and then it'll be easier to
:13:46. > :13:49.come together afterwards. You believe a leader can have a
:13:50. > :13:54.plurality of views in Cabinet? And presumably you think that's true for
:13:55. > :13:57.Labour and Mr Corbyn as well then? I'm not sure I'm competent to
:13:58. > :14:01.discuss the mess that's the Labour Party when we've got a reshuffle
:14:02. > :14:06.that's against the Chilcot Inquiry to see which we get first. But we've
:14:07. > :14:09.got to work out for our own party how we best govern. We've got a
:14:10. > :14:13.majority in the House of Commons. That's our main responsibility. If
:14:14. > :14:16.we have to have a three month hiatus where there's a relaxation of
:14:17. > :14:19.cabinet responsibility in order for us to be the able to govern
:14:20. > :14:23.effectively for the rest of the decade, that's a fair bargain. Liam
:14:24. > :14:28.Fox and Ken Clarke, thank you both very much.
:14:29. > :14:30.Meanwhile, to the opposition party as it wrestles
:14:31. > :14:34.Think of a David Attenborough plant mating sequence that's been sped up.
:14:35. > :14:37.Then imagine it's been slowed back down to real time.
:14:38. > :14:40.Now you're working in the mindset of those who've been monitoring
:14:41. > :14:42.the last 30 hours of the Labour Party reshuffle.
:14:43. > :14:51.But so far we have one shadow culture secretary Michael Dugher,
:14:52. > :14:56.And a bunch of rumours about a new entry onto the bench.
:14:57. > :14:58.So has the Labour Leader resisted the Urge to Purge?
:14:59. > :15:03.The New Statesman has been live blogging all the twists and we've
:15:04. > :15:05.forcibly removed their political editor, George Eton,
:15:06. > :15:12.from the staircase in that corridor of news so he can join us here.
:15:13. > :15:20.What has the last 30 or so hours yielded for you? Trotsky spoke of
:15:21. > :15:23.the idea of permanent yielded for you? Trotsky spoke of
:15:24. > :15:32.this has been Jeremy Corbyn to act swiftly to
:15:33. > :15:39.change the Shadow Foreign Secretary, remove Hilary Benn from that post
:15:40. > :15:44.and get rid of Murray Eagle. That has not happened yet. Do we know now
:15:45. > :15:51.that Hilary Benn is now safe in his post? Well Hilary Benn is to remain
:15:52. > :15:57.Shadow Foreign Secretary against initial expectations but will have
:15:58. > :16:04.to share some positions, he will not be able to oppose Jeremy Corbyn on
:16:05. > :16:10.air strikes for example. So Foreign Secretary in name. Yes, no more free
:16:11. > :16:15.votes on foreign policy. One fact we have today is Michael Dugher, a
:16:16. > :16:22.vocal critic, he called his sacking today and end to new politics.
:16:23. > :16:27.Michael Dugher was critical of Jeremy Corbyn during the leadership
:16:28. > :16:31.campaign at shows to join the Shadow Cabinet. I think in the hope it
:16:32. > :16:36.would be what Jeremy Corbyn called abroad church where you have people
:16:37. > :16:41.with different views, different backgrounds, working together.
:16:42. > :16:46.Jeremy Corbyn, his team now feel that led to a lack of coherence on
:16:47. > :16:50.foreign policy and defence policy and they were keen for greater
:16:51. > :16:55.unity. So you will not end up with what one person described to me as a
:16:56. > :17:00.Shadow Cabinet of clones and zombies because Jeremy does not have the
:17:01. > :17:05.numbers. Only around 14 MPs in the party voted for him so he cannot put
:17:06. > :17:10.in ideological clones but he doesn't want greater discipline. It looked
:17:11. > :17:15.as if Maria Eagle might have been a casualty at one stage possibly to
:17:16. > :17:21.bury replaced by Maria Thornbury in defence. Is that one dead? The
:17:22. > :17:25.latest was that Emily Thornbury was in top bashed in talks with Jeremy
:17:26. > :17:33.Corbyn. I know she has been tipped to take a job in the Shadow Cabinet.
:17:34. > :17:39.She is a Trident sceptic and Maria Eagle is a defender. But one Labour
:17:40. > :17:43.MP said it would be extraordinary to have a Shadow Defence Secretary who
:17:44. > :17:48.sneers at her own flag, a reference to the reason for the resignation of
:17:49. > :17:53.Emily Thornbury from the Shadow Cabinet of Ed Miliband. Tony Blair
:17:54. > :17:58.always made rapid reshuffles which were not necessarily at all
:17:59. > :18:02.successful. They may be merit in taking time over this. But do you
:18:03. > :18:06.had the sense that Jeremy Corbyn will emerge from this having done
:18:07. > :18:11.what he wanted to do and being stronger for it? I think he will
:18:12. > :18:16.have done some of what he wanted to do, to get Michael Dugher out, to
:18:17. > :18:20.get in a new Shadow Defence Secretary. And if he does not have a
:18:21. > :18:26.new Shadow Foreign Secretary he will have Hilary Benn under new rules,
:18:27. > :18:30.essentially. I think he has lost goodwill with this reshuffle, Labour
:18:31. > :18:35.MPs friendly are furious at the way this has prevented them from
:18:36. > :18:39.attacking the Conservatives more effectively over the concession on
:18:40. > :18:45.the EU by David Cameron, how it was to drag on over the Christmas break.
:18:46. > :18:48.They feel they want to get back to the job of opposing the
:18:49. > :18:49.Conservatives and in the moment they are in a position to do anything
:18:50. > :18:52.but. The speed at which tensions
:18:53. > :18:54.between Saudi and Iran have escalated are a reminder, perhaps,
:18:55. > :18:57.that this is no new conflict. Saudi's decision to
:18:58. > :18:59.behead the Shia Cleric - and hero - Nimr al-Nimr -
:19:00. > :19:02.may mark a point of no return. But make no mistake -
:19:03. > :19:04.the historic unease between these two states stretches back
:19:05. > :19:07.millennia - pre Islam - to a time when each regarded
:19:08. > :19:10.themselves as the central power What's changed this time, perhaps,
:19:11. > :19:15.is the economics of the situation. Saudi - which made its fortune
:19:16. > :19:18.on oil - is now feeling the pinch Whilst its expenditure
:19:19. > :19:25.on defence has soared. How does this affect
:19:26. > :19:27.what happens next? Our diplomatic editor,
:19:28. > :19:31.Mark Urban, is on the case. There is religious schism,
:19:32. > :19:38.there is power politics, and in Saudi Arabia's
:19:39. > :19:42.confrontation with Iran, there is an increasingly vexed
:19:43. > :19:48.economic dimension too. There is no doubt that the fiscal
:19:49. > :19:50.challenge is enormous for Saudi They got used to living with an oil
:19:51. > :19:55.price that was very high, at points in excess of $100
:19:56. > :19:58.a barrel, and now that price has Saudi Arabia's government expects
:19:59. > :20:02.revenues of $137 billion But oil and gas make up
:20:03. > :20:11.something like 80% of that. So with the continuing price slump,
:20:12. > :20:13.Saudi will be eating Last year these fell from 732
:20:14. > :20:22.billion to 623 billion, leading the IMF to predict
:20:23. > :20:26.the Saudis could run out of cash In the past two years they have been
:20:27. > :20:35.running a huge deficit and this will continue for the next few years
:20:36. > :20:39.if oil prices continue at this rate, I would expect they will be
:20:40. > :20:42.in a very difficult financial With tension rising in the Gulf,
:20:43. > :20:53.Iranian TV has been showing off The competition for regional
:20:54. > :20:58.dominance now extends With Iran expected to boost oil
:20:59. > :21:06.sales as a way of increasing We go back to the 1970s,
:21:07. > :21:14.clearly Iran was one of the world's largest oil producers
:21:15. > :21:16.and rivalled Saudi Arabia. Today Iran after many years
:21:17. > :21:19.of sanctions has obviously fallen into a much lower position and lower
:21:20. > :21:23.status in the global oil market. But we think that Iran
:21:24. > :21:29.will try to regain status The more that Iran produces,
:21:30. > :21:34.the more the market is flooded. The market share clearly,
:21:35. > :21:37.the more market share Iran takes, the less market share
:21:38. > :21:39.Saudi Arabia will have. So clearly there is
:21:40. > :21:42.going to be rivalry. In a bid to avert crisis,
:21:43. > :21:45.Saudi Arabia last month unveiled It envisages spending
:21:46. > :21:52.$224 billion this year. That includes $61 billion subsidy
:21:53. > :21:57.on fuel prices and $10 billion While the kingdom is now risking
:21:58. > :22:05.unrest with cuts to subsidies, producing for example a 50%
:22:06. > :22:11.hike in petrol prices, it's still increasing
:22:12. > :22:14.its defence spending. It is due to go up by 27% over
:22:15. > :22:19.the next five years to $62 There is an unacceptable level
:22:20. > :22:27.of spending and an illogical If you look into for example
:22:28. > :22:35.the budget, they introduced subsidies, but the spending
:22:36. > :22:39.on defence has increased significantly, around 25%
:22:40. > :22:48.compared to last year. And this is not counting any kind
:22:49. > :22:51.of spending off balance sheets of the budget to go to countries,
:22:52. > :22:55.poor countries, that Saudi Arabia Saudi Arabia's decision
:22:56. > :23:06.to intervene in Yemen and to subsidise its allies to do
:23:07. > :23:10.the same has created financial risks Regional leadership,
:23:11. > :23:17.they are discovering, One that Saudi Arabia may only be
:23:18. > :23:24.able to afford by deep cuts Unless of course actual wars push
:23:25. > :23:35.the oil price back up. How important is it
:23:36. > :23:37.to ask someone's gender - and would you consider it
:23:38. > :23:41.an invasion of privacy For most of us, it will
:23:42. > :23:46.barely raise an eyebrow. But for increasingly vocal numbers,
:23:47. > :23:48.it is a question that's both People who see their own gender
:23:49. > :23:54.as fluid or not easily defined say they want to remove the gender
:23:55. > :23:56.markers - for example from passports, university
:23:57. > :24:01.applications and official forms. And it's something the UK government
:24:02. > :24:04.could start to actively consider To some it may sound
:24:05. > :24:15.positively Victorian. Applying to legally change gender
:24:16. > :24:19.in the UK involves presenting formal medical evidence to a judicial body
:24:20. > :24:24.called the Gender Recognition Panel. Applicants must first prove
:24:25. > :24:27.they have been diagnosed with gender in their acquired gender for two
:24:28. > :24:35.years and will do so for ever. Stripping that process back
:24:36. > :24:38.to a simple declaration form is expected to be one
:24:39. > :24:43.of the recommendations made For campaigners it is the end
:24:44. > :24:49.of a dated and sometimes traumatic process and another sign of evolving
:24:50. > :24:54.attitudes to transgender. Across the western world those
:24:55. > :24:56.attitudes have been transformed Some have called it
:24:57. > :25:01.the trans moment. Time Magazine has called it the next
:25:02. > :25:05.civil rights frontier. Trans icons such as Caitlin Jenner,
:25:06. > :25:09.formerly the Olympian Bruce Jenner, and Kellie Maloney,
:25:10. > :25:12.the celebrity boxing promoter, have given transgender issues
:25:13. > :25:18.new prominence in mainstream media. And stars like Ruby Rose have taught
:25:19. > :25:21.today's generation to think more Facebook now offers more than 70
:25:22. > :25:27.options on gender identity, ranging from polygender
:25:28. > :25:31.to inter-sex. But for all the progress,
:25:32. > :25:33.the work is far from complete. Transgender people are still more
:25:34. > :25:36.likely to be attacked or face discrimination or suffer mental
:25:37. > :25:41.health problems or drug abuse. Some campaigners argue that proposed
:25:42. > :25:45.changes in law do not go far enough Others simply wonder why in 2016
:25:46. > :25:51.it is still something CN Lester is a musician,
:25:52. > :26:00.writer and trans rights activist. And Sarah Ditum is a Feminist
:26:01. > :26:14.and writer for the New Statesman. Thank you for coming in. CN, how
:26:15. > :26:20.would you describe yourself if faced with a form or application, what do
:26:21. > :26:24.you write? For someone like me who is transgender and does not consider
:26:25. > :26:29.themselves either male or female and goes through the world being traded
:26:30. > :26:35.sometimes as a man and sometimes as a woman, it gets confusing but asked
:26:36. > :26:41.to describe who I am. I want to tell the truth and if form simply has
:26:42. > :26:47.male or female I cannot do that. Why are you sometimes described as a man
:26:48. > :26:51.and sometimes as a woman? We have different ways of seeing sex and the
:26:52. > :26:57.gender. If we look at the history of how we do gender and sex, we always
:26:58. > :27:01.had creative ways of doing gender. We have people who transition from
:27:02. > :27:06.one sex to another, people who live in a space between gender, people
:27:07. > :27:12.who reject ideas of gender at all. You were born a woman. I was born
:27:13. > :27:18.baby, is a big distinction. Because of the patriarchal system in Hong
:27:19. > :27:26.Kong I do not even have female on my birth certificate, but while. Girl
:27:27. > :27:31.is gender but male and female, they are different things. The nature of
:27:32. > :27:38.transition and the reason it is traumatic is because physical sex is
:27:39. > :27:43.a fact of biological reality. With which trans people have two
:27:44. > :27:48.negotiate. This is one of my academic specialities, the idea of
:27:49. > :27:54.sex as we know it emerged in the 19th century. We cannot talk about
:27:55. > :28:00.sex without gender and the body. Coming back to the issue at hand,
:28:01. > :28:06.the current legislation... You said the idea of male and female does not
:28:07. > :28:13.exist in your mind? I say it is more complicated than what we were taught
:28:14. > :28:17.at GCSE biology. None of us are biologists. It would be interesting
:28:18. > :28:21.to talk about what is going on as opposed to these common
:28:22. > :28:24.misunderstanding is that we have. It is immensely complicated in some
:28:25. > :28:29.ways and in other ways enormously simple in that in day-to-day life
:28:30. > :28:37.there are men and women who broadly are male and female, so sex classes
:28:38. > :28:44.broadly map onto physical sex. Trans people are caught between these and
:28:45. > :28:46.that is important and I hope the report will deal with that
:28:47. > :28:51.constructively. But in everyday life the impression of women by men
:28:52. > :28:57.follows the line of sex and is about the exploitation of women as sex
:28:58. > :29:03.objects. And the argument of CN, do you think that ignores social
:29:04. > :29:09.conditions M if we focus on complexities, which is a fascinating
:29:10. > :29:13.and important, but small part of the argument, then we will start to
:29:14. > :29:18.overlook the structural violence that is practised by men against
:29:19. > :29:23.women. I would say again coming back to these proposals, which is why we
:29:24. > :29:29.are on this programme, the enquiry has been interesting, fascinating to
:29:30. > :29:35.see it unfold and fascinating to see someone like Maria Miller who went
:29:36. > :29:39.into it not knowing much, realising how much this affects our general
:29:40. > :29:43.way of being in society with each other. A poll last year found one
:29:44. > :29:49.third of people in the UK would not describe themselves as totally male
:29:50. > :29:51.or female. The number of trans people in society, 1% on current
:29:52. > :30:04.figures and intersex people... If Maria Miller takes this into
:30:05. > :30:08.legislation, what does it mean for male and female changing rooms,
:30:09. > :30:13.public loos, how you count the number of men and women on a census?
:30:14. > :30:18.This is hugely important. She says she wants to look at the wage gap
:30:19. > :30:23.and the glass ceiling. If you don't have a way of monitoring men and
:30:24. > :30:27.women as two separate classes, you can't study that. You are blurring
:30:28. > :30:30.all the lines, all the social construct aren't you? I think what
:30:31. > :30:35.we are saying, we don't have race on forms. The Government doesn't
:30:36. > :30:42.mandate my race or religion on the form. But if you are not collecting
:30:43. > :30:51.the data... If you will let me finish. Trans people are not
:30:52. > :30:55.arguing... It is vital that we can monitor data against discrimination.
:30:56. > :31:05.Would the data be that you start eroding that because you don't know
:31:06. > :31:10.where the definitions lie? I am finding this amusing. It is all
:31:11. > :31:17.hypotheticals. It is not hypothetical. We are talking about
:31:18. > :31:22.classifying data that is private in some respects. With the individual
:31:23. > :31:27.consent. If you can let me finish. It is a question of competing
:31:28. > :31:33.rights. How do we protect the rights and safety of trans people. There's
:31:34. > :31:38.a danger that we will look back and say, this revolution was happening
:31:39. > :31:42.and you were on the wrong side. You didn't realise that this was a civil
:31:43. > :31:49.rights movement in the way that race was or in the way that the gay
:31:50. > :31:52.moment was and by not accepting what's happening before your eyes
:31:53. > :31:57.you are missing the point. There are a lot of facets to what we talk
:31:58. > :32:02.about as trans. We are not just talking about people who physically
:32:03. > :32:08.transition and have genital reassignment surgery, but people who
:32:09. > :32:15.identify as the opposite sex or anything along a spectrum and make
:32:16. > :32:21.no physical or aesthetic changes but present that as their identity. How
:32:22. > :32:26.do you present somebody who has a penis and commits violence and wants
:32:27. > :32:37.to be admitted to female only spaces. In Kelly Maloney
:32:38. > :32:45.pretransition life Kelly Maloney attacked his wife. Rose West is in a
:32:46. > :32:49.prison and she attacked women... I'm so sorry, I wish we had longer for
:32:50. > :32:52.this. Great of you to come in. The Thank you.
:32:53. > :32:54.It is a year since the staff at Paris' satirical magazine,
:32:55. > :32:56.Charlie Hebdo, were targeted by murderers.
:32:57. > :32:59.This week, the magazine's new editor responded in customary style.
:33:00. > :33:02.A provocative front cover - and the words - "We're not
:33:03. > :33:06.going to let balaclava-clad scumbags ruin a lifetime's work."
:33:07. > :33:10.Those attacks - as we now know - were not to be the last of 2015.
:33:11. > :33:12.But the killings began what has now become seen as France's
:33:13. > :33:21.Tomorrow night on BBC Two, filmmaker Dan Reed reveals
:33:22. > :33:25.the untold story of the massacre - and of the first Islamic State
:33:26. > :33:27.This edited excerpt from his film features previously unseen footage
:33:28. > :33:30.and interviews with some of the hostages inside the grocery.
:33:31. > :40:10.You may find some scenes distressing.
:40:11. > :40:14.And you can see the full film - This World, Three Days of Terror:
:40:15. > :40:19.The Charlie Hebdo Attacks, tomorrow on BBC Two at 9.00pm.
:40:20. > :40:26.We leave you with President Barack Obama, who made an extraordinary
:40:27. > :40:29.statement on gun control tonight, which speaks for itself.
:40:30. > :40:32.Our inalienable right to life, and liberty and the pursuit
:40:33. > :40:36.of happiness, those rights were stripped from college kids
:40:37. > :40:39.in Blacksburg and Santa Barbara, and from high-schoolers
:40:40. > :40:54.in Columbine, and from first graders in Newtown.
:40:55. > :41:05.And from every family who never imagined
:41:06. > :41:08.their loved one would be taken from our lives by a bullet
:41:09. > :41:29.Every time I think about those kids it gets me mad.
:41:30. > :41:32.And by the way, it happens on the street of Chicago
:41:33. > :41:50.Unbelievably some parts of eastern Scotland have already had their
:41:51. > :41:55.second wettest January on record and we are only five days in. Further
:41:56. > :41:56.damp, dreary cold weather across the