:00:09. > :00:13.Not the new politics of 2016 - in either Cameron's Cabinet,
:00:14. > :00:17.From Trident to Europe, with major policy divisions
:00:18. > :00:26.Also tonight: for better or worse politics.
:00:27. > :00:28.This woman took an abortion pill in the one part
:00:29. > :00:33.of the UK where abortion is still illegal.
:00:34. > :00:36.She says, "Arrest me, charge me, or change the law."
:00:37. > :00:38.We put that to Northern Ireland's Justice Minister.
:00:39. > :00:42.The UK's Chief Medical Adviser says there's no safe level of alcohol.
:00:43. > :00:58.One week I'm tolding drinking red wine will make my heart better. Then
:00:59. > :01:00.I won't. I'm told to take strange drugs one minute and not the next
:01:01. > :01:06.minute. The first week of 2016 has laid bare
:01:07. > :01:10.the new reality of the way politics is being prosecuted
:01:11. > :01:12.by the Government Collective Cabinet responsibility
:01:13. > :01:18.has been all but suspended. Neither David Cameron,
:01:19. > :01:22.nor Jeremy Corbyn is in control of their senior ministers -
:01:23. > :01:25.a far cry from the heyday In the Cabinet and in the Shadow
:01:26. > :01:30.Cabinet there are divisions on the major issues facing this
:01:31. > :01:33.country that are deeper But is this a weakness
:01:34. > :01:44.or a strength? Walter Bagehot described
:01:45. > :01:48.the British Cabinet as the buckle that fastens on legislative part
:01:49. > :01:52.of the state to the executive part. And starting in the 18th century,
:01:53. > :01:56.when Sir Robert Walpole's first modern cabinet adopted a united
:01:57. > :02:01.position to counter the power of the monarch and continuing
:02:02. > :02:03.through the 19th century, as the growth of the state
:02:04. > :02:06.demanded a coherent, unified government,
:02:07. > :02:09.the British Cabinet adopted the convention of
:02:10. > :02:12.collective responsibility. However much they disagree
:02:13. > :02:14.in private, Cabinet ministers are bound to support
:02:15. > :02:18.a united position in public. Any minister who cannot
:02:19. > :02:20.support the agreed policy, has the option to resign,
:02:21. > :02:23.and some have done so. The convention held for the most
:02:24. > :02:27.part throughout the last century, but Liberal members of the national
:02:28. > :02:29.government were allowed to vote And in 1975, facing a huge Cabinet
:02:30. > :02:42.split, Harold Wilson allowed his ministers
:02:43. > :02:44.to campaign on both sides But collective responsibility held
:02:45. > :02:48.strong throughout the 1980s, when Chancellor Nigel Lawson
:02:49. > :02:51.strongly disagreed with the poll tax in Cabinet, but held his tongue
:02:52. > :02:55.publicly and on into the new century when high-profile ministers resigned
:02:56. > :02:58.in protest at the Iraq war. I intend to join those
:02:59. > :03:03.tomorrow night who vote It is for that reason,
:03:04. > :03:07.and that reason alone, and with a heavy heart,
:03:08. > :03:21.that I resign from the government. But public unity hid
:03:22. > :03:23.private dysfunction. And when a new Coalition Government
:03:24. > :03:26.took power, there was no longer even any sense of pretending
:03:27. > :03:28.that the government was united. Even though he no longer needs
:03:29. > :03:35.the Lib Dems to govern, he still has a problem
:03:36. > :03:37.getting his cabinet to back him Like Wilson's Cabinet,
:03:38. > :03:43.they will now be allowed to campaign on both sides in this
:03:44. > :03:45.year's referendum. And Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn
:03:46. > :03:54.is also having trouble enforcing Despite his Shadow Foreign Secretary
:03:55. > :03:59.opposing him in the Syria debate, he stayed in the post
:04:00. > :04:03.in this week's reshuffle. With Cabinet unity faltering
:04:04. > :04:06.on all sides, is a convention of collective responsibility
:04:07. > :04:10.a thing of the past? Well joining me to chew over this
:04:11. > :04:12.constitutional conundrum is Sally Morgan, formerly a top
:04:13. > :04:16.adviser in Tony Blair's Downing Street, Polly McKenzie
:04:17. > :04:18.who was a policy adviser to Nick Clegg and Catherine Haddon,
:04:19. > :04:31.resident historian at the Institute Sally Morgan it has been an
:04:32. > :04:38.extraordinary week. Bizarre. You couldn't make it up, could you? We
:04:39. > :04:44.will deal with the cabinet, but you have a Shadow Cabinet where Jeremy
:04:45. > :04:48.Corbyn does not have authority. He does not have authority over the
:04:49. > :04:53.Parliamentary Labour Party. That is the significant issue and the Shadow
:04:54. > :04:58.Cabinet are a small section of that. Not only that, he has the
:04:59. > :05:04.possibility of further revolt, we know he has talked about Hilary Benn
:05:05. > :05:11.and we know there is many divisions there. Of course he is in an
:05:12. > :05:18.extremely weak position. My guess is he will produce a cabinet more in
:05:19. > :05:24.his own liking, but in the end. He has started to do that? But he is
:05:25. > :05:31.more interested in the party in the country than in Parliament. How
:05:32. > :05:38.important is collective cabinet responsibility for the government to
:05:39. > :05:41.work. It is the way in which a Parliamentary party works in
:05:42. > :05:47.relation to the Parliament and in showing that sort of strength of
:05:48. > :05:52.purpose. Even though we know that in the past and as a historian you
:05:53. > :05:58.know, it has been a pretension. Yes and not just at big moments like
:05:59. > :06:04.1932 and 1975 when they had agreements to differ. But also you
:06:05. > :06:07.see it in different ways. One of the Tennents of it is they won't talk
:06:08. > :06:12.about cabinet meetings, but Ministers leak all the time. There
:06:13. > :06:17.are ways in which ministers find to dissent that go outside the formal
:06:18. > :06:23.practice. Talking of leaking when it came to the coalition there wasn't
:06:24. > :06:31.enough leaking to keep Nick Clegg in the public's good books, or the
:06:32. > :06:36.Liberal Democrat voters' books. Good books, because he turned over on so
:06:37. > :06:41.many things. The period of coalition demonstrated people can disagree and
:06:42. > :06:46.semi privately and the world doesn't end. Maybe if there had been more
:06:47. > :06:48.briefing and more candour about the disagreements, then the Liberal
:06:49. > :06:56.Democrats would haven't suffered so much, I don't know. They did suffer,
:06:57. > :07:01.he did roll over on tuition fees. I wonder if it had been much more...
:07:02. > :07:04.Discussion about that outside cabinet if there had been dissent
:07:05. > :07:09.the Liberal Democrats would not have come such a cropper? I think when
:07:10. > :07:13.explaining the tuition fees debate at the start it was very much
:07:14. > :07:18.sticking to the line of collective responsibility and this is the best
:07:19. > :07:23.policy. It was only over the years that Nick Clegg started about it
:07:24. > :07:27.having to be a compromise and people bought that more, there were for the
:07:28. > :07:32.voters it was too late. What did it look like from your position in the
:07:33. > :07:36.coalition? In a way it made sense, you have two parties in government.
:07:37. > :07:41.And different manifestos. Yes and they brought them together. But at
:07:42. > :07:45.the same time collective cabinet responsibility is partly about party
:07:46. > :07:49.management and in which case you're managing two parties that is what
:07:50. > :07:54.happened in 1932, they didn't want the liberals to leave and the only
:07:55. > :08:01.way to do so was to give them that leeway to talk about their policies.
:08:02. > :08:05.You talk about 1975, there was only a month between the negotiations and
:08:06. > :08:13.the referendum. David Cameron faces a yawning period with some some big
:08:14. > :08:18.beasts campaigning against him. Will that damage him and that whole idea
:08:19. > :08:24.of collective cabinet responsibility for the Conservatives. It is a
:08:25. > :08:31.tricky thing to manage N75 the problems they had were through 74
:08:32. > :08:35.and Tony Benn pushing against that. In 2011 there was a referendum and
:08:36. > :08:41.cabinet ministers were arguing against each other on platforms, on
:08:42. > :08:45.the alternative vote and it was two parties, but the world didn't come
:08:46. > :08:53.to an end, government carries on making decision and some of the time
:08:54. > :08:56.ministers were campaigning. And whether it looks as David Cameron is
:08:57. > :09:04.in charge. The Prime Minister said this was not going to happen and has
:09:05. > :09:09.changed h mind because he can't deliver the cabinet, because several
:09:10. > :09:14.members said they are not starting. That is like Harold Wilson. That was
:09:15. > :09:18.weakness as well. I think it is weakness and not new politics. Going
:09:19. > :09:23.back to your time with Tony Blair there was collective cabinet
:09:24. > :09:28.responsibility, but we know now that it was a disaster inside and
:09:29. > :09:33.actually incredibly corrosive. The public knew that. Wouldn't it have
:09:34. > :09:41.been better if you had aired differences and not had been what
:09:42. > :09:45.was a real diminution of cabinet? People say that, I don't think that
:09:46. > :09:50.is accurate. There were big arguments within cabinet and that is
:09:51. > :09:54.the right place if you're running government, you want to have big
:09:55. > :09:58.rows. I remember big rows on cabinet meetings such as public service
:09:59. > :10:02.reform. Give me an example of where somebody who backed down who was
:10:03. > :10:07.really fighting. There was significant fighting on a range of
:10:08. > :10:11.health and school reforms. But the rows did take place in cabinet and
:10:12. > :10:15.you're right of course there was disagreement and Gordon Brown had a
:10:16. > :10:19.level of disagreement. But cabinet took a decision and packed the
:10:20. > :10:26.policy -- backed the policy clearly and you do need to have those
:10:27. > :10:31.arguments. That worked in coalition. I wonder what the public makes of
:10:32. > :10:37.this. We live in an age where there are leaks from cabinet and there is
:10:38. > :10:42.pressure and people tweet, social media, the voters want honesty don't
:10:43. > :10:47.they? Yes the public know when a politician is spinning them a line.
:10:48. > :10:51.In the long-term within a party it festers the sense that you're only
:10:52. > :10:55.sticking to the party line, because your being bullied by the boss and
:10:56. > :11:01.if David Cameron wants to say the referendum was a fair fight, he has
:11:02. > :11:06.to give the rebels as we assume they will be, the opportunities to
:11:07. > :11:09.campaign. Where does that put the idea of a Jeremy Corbyn Shadow
:11:10. > :11:16.Cabinet at the moment. Because when you say it is about the voters and
:11:17. > :11:19.Diane Abbot said it is about the party people and the party, but
:11:20. > :11:26.actually it I not just about the party, it is about the PLP and
:11:27. > :11:32.members of Shadow Cabinet. I find the situation of the Labour Party
:11:33. > :11:39.alarming, but it is part of a long-term project to slowly build up
:11:40. > :11:45.a Shadow Cabinet that is cohesive. The cabinet, would that work in
:11:46. > :11:49.government? The one he has now, no it would be chaos. The difficulty of
:11:50. > :11:54.saying the public understand, in the end the public want to know what the
:11:55. > :11:59.government is they're electing. One of reasons it did work in coalition
:12:00. > :12:05.you had good arguments but you did reach decisions and stuck to them
:12:06. > :12:10.and went out and... What Jeremy Corbyn and Macdonald said to Hilary
:12:11. > :12:13.Benn is you rebel all you like, but from the backbenches. That is not
:12:14. > :12:18.the new politics. It is very old politics in Labour at the moment.
:12:19. > :12:28.How will this look this period in history? It is difficult to know.
:12:29. > :12:33.These issues will be massive for the parties and it goes back to past
:12:34. > :12:36.examples, the reason why collective responsibility was important, it was
:12:37. > :12:42.about whether the parties would split and reform in different ways
:12:43. > :12:48.as in the 19th century and lot is about party management, rather than
:12:49. > :12:52.the strict constitutional issue. Thank you all very much.
:12:53. > :12:57.That was what one prison officer said of a cell he showed
:12:58. > :12:59.to the Chief Inspector of Prisons for England and Wales -
:13:00. > :13:02.an opinion which found its way into Nick Hardwick's final report
:13:03. > :13:06.He said that prisons had deteriorated to their worst level
:13:07. > :13:08.in at least a decade, with rising violence,
:13:09. > :13:10.overcrowding and a rapid rise in the use of legal highs,
:13:11. > :13:13.and, he warned, it could not go on like this.
:13:14. > :13:16.He declined to apply for another five-year term and leaves his post
:13:17. > :13:34.First, looking back, do you think at the last five years, what has been
:13:35. > :13:38.the most devastating changes? Prisons have got a lot more
:13:39. > :13:43.dangerous. There were more murders in prisons last year than there have
:13:44. > :13:49.been for ten years. More suicides than there have been for two years.
:13:50. > :13:55.There are two suicides a week. There are 550 self-harm Ings harm
:13:56. > :14:01.incidents a week. And these are all much higher than they have been,
:14:02. > :14:08.really since we began to keep recordses. It begs the question you
:14:09. > :14:13.weren't able to make the impact you wanted. Things have started to
:14:14. > :14:18.change, Michael Gove has started to make changes and we can claim some
:14:19. > :14:23.credit that the change in policy came about because of some of the
:14:24. > :14:28.evidence that we presented. But there are things you don't seem to
:14:29. > :14:33.be able to get a grip of, one is legal highs. Legal highs is the most
:14:34. > :14:38.serious problem facing the prison system at the moment. It is not only
:14:39. > :14:45.dangerous for the people taking its, there have been about 20 deaths. But
:14:46. > :14:49.the trade and the debt and the violence that comes about as a
:14:50. > :14:56.result of that trade is destabilising prisons. Even well run
:14:57. > :15:00.prisons are being destabilised by the availability of these
:15:01. > :15:04.substances. And as ever the engeneral youty of how you get them
:15:05. > :15:10.into prison. Yes it depends on the prison you're talking about. In a
:15:11. > :15:19.big prison, where the perimeter maybe a mile, they come over in
:15:20. > :15:26.drones and in cater puts and tennis balls. Prisoners will get themselves
:15:27. > :15:32.recalled to prison stuffed with things in unmentional places. There
:15:33. > :15:34.are other issues, one is also the question of radicalisation. You have
:15:35. > :15:45.real fears about this. You need to take a sophisticated
:15:46. > :15:47.approach to this. There are a small number of dangerous men in prison
:15:48. > :15:51.who are trying to radicalise other. You have to make a distinction
:15:52. > :15:56.between them and those that develop a genuine religious faith, that will
:15:57. > :16:04.reduce the risk of them reoffending and gangs who are Muslims as well.
:16:05. > :16:08.Let's talk about the transgender issue, that is something that has
:16:09. > :16:14.been a much greater feature in the last two or three years. Managing
:16:15. > :16:19.transgender prisoners is difficult. Do you think it has been done
:16:20. > :16:26.properly? I think it needs to be done with a degree of sensitivity.
:16:27. > :16:30.Some of the sea asides -- suicides we have seen reflects the difficulty
:16:31. > :16:38.the prison has with anyone who needs different needs. Anyone, mental
:16:39. > :16:43.issues, transgender. Give me an example? It is about where you put
:16:44. > :16:46.them and recognising particular a when people first come into prison,
:16:47. > :16:52.that is when the risk of suicide is greatest. Getting that decision
:16:53. > :16:56.right, about how you place people, too often you put people where there
:16:57. > :17:03.is a space. You put people in the wrong prison. How do you choose?
:17:04. > :17:06.What the policy should be, you make an individual decision based on the
:17:07. > :17:11.circumstances of that individual. You have been critical about the
:17:12. > :17:15.impact of private providers in prison. We know there have been
:17:16. > :17:21.seven members of staff suspended tonight because there has been a big
:17:22. > :17:28.investigation on Panorama, and the treatment in a youth prison fell far
:17:29. > :17:34.short. I haven't seen the footage for Panorama, but if the account is
:17:35. > :17:38.a true, it is a disgrace. But the lesson we should learn, if you put
:17:39. > :17:43.vulnerable people in a closed institution, they are at risk. And
:17:44. > :17:47.too often the authorities, the systems take their eye off that
:17:48. > :17:52.ball. You may not have known about Medway, but Raines broke, a secure
:17:53. > :18:00.training centre, the contract was taken away from G4S last year. Don't
:18:01. > :18:07.you think you should be looking at that series of contracts much more
:18:08. > :18:14.closely? We did pay attention and we were looking at that very closely. I
:18:15. > :18:17.think... I don't think, what we were saying was contradicted by others. I
:18:18. > :18:22.don't think the right lessons were learned. I don't manage any present,
:18:23. > :18:27.and I think there are questions to be asked about wider lessons from
:18:28. > :18:32.Raines broke, which we set out in diesel, were not learned. I think
:18:33. > :18:38.the accountability for that... Does the government not have enough
:18:39. > :18:42.power? I think there are issues. The directors, as they are called, have
:18:43. > :18:47.the authority to run it. I think there are questions here for the
:18:48. > :18:51.company. Too many private companies in the prison service in England and
:18:52. > :18:53.Wales? I do not think it is a question
:18:54. > :18:57.Wales? I do not think it is a have these problems in the public
:18:58. > :19:03.sector as well. The managers and people in more senior positions need
:19:04. > :19:09.to be accountable for what happens in the places they are responsible
:19:10. > :19:11.for. Thank you for joining us. The panorama programme will be broadcast
:19:12. > :19:13.on BBC One at 8:30pm. In Northern Ireland
:19:14. > :19:15.abortion is illegal. The 1967 Abortion Act does
:19:16. > :19:17.not extend to that part Therefore, anyone who performs
:19:18. > :19:20.an illegal termination could be Last month a High Court judge
:19:21. > :19:27.in Belfast ruled that Northern Ireland's position
:19:28. > :19:33.was incompatible with Human Rights Legislation, and now
:19:34. > :19:36.the onus is on the Stormont Assembly But women in Northern Ireland
:19:37. > :19:43.who wish an abortion have been defying the law by buying pills
:19:44. > :19:45.which are sent to them, to bring on a termination,
:19:46. > :19:50.thus risking prosecution. One such woman, Suzanne Lee
:19:51. > :19:52.is in our Dublin studio. Also joining us is Northern
:19:53. > :20:04.Ireland's Justice Minister David Good evening to you both. First of
:20:05. > :20:07.all, Suzanne Lee, how many women do you think in Northern Ireland have
:20:08. > :20:11.taken the abortion pill question what I know you have been involved
:20:12. > :20:19.in talking to people. What is your estimation? I think it is very hard
:20:20. > :20:23.to gauge how many people have taken it, because where these pills come
:20:24. > :20:27.from, they do not release figures of how many people get them because
:20:28. > :20:31.customs are shut down. For a lot of people it is their only option,
:20:32. > :20:38.their only way of getting an abortion. I know that when I go to
:20:39. > :20:42.meetings or... There's even been times when I have been walking down
:20:43. > :20:46.the street and women will come up to me and tell me that they've ordered
:20:47. > :20:53.pills, that they've had an abortion. I'd say this happens three or four
:20:54. > :20:57.times a month. It was a very difficult decision,
:20:58. > :21:02.I'm sure, for you to go public about this. I just want to take you
:21:03. > :21:05.through what actually happened. You had an abortion pill sent to you in
:21:06. > :21:13.Northern Ireland. Did you actually take it within Northern Ireland?
:21:14. > :21:20.I go to college in the Republic of Ireland, where abortion is also
:21:21. > :21:24.illegal. But you cannot get the abortion pills sent here because
:21:25. > :21:31.customs will seize it. So I ordered it from there. But the law is if you
:21:32. > :21:35.procure noxious substances to induce an abortion, that is what the crime
:21:36. > :21:40.is. So, do you believe you broke the
:21:41. > :21:45.law? You must have known when you took this pill that you might be
:21:46. > :21:52.prosecuted? There is a possibility you would be prosecuted?
:21:53. > :21:57.At the time when I was pregnant it was always in the back of my mind.
:21:58. > :22:01.What I was doing was illegal but I didn't want to be pregnant so much
:22:02. > :22:08.that that just wasn't high up on my list of priorities. Yes, it is
:22:09. > :22:11.illegal, but no, I don't want to be pregnant, I can't afford to be
:22:12. > :22:17.pregnant. It just wasn't the right time. So in a lot of ways, it's the
:22:18. > :22:21.strange double-edged sword where you worried about prosecution but at the
:22:22. > :22:27.same time you're so relieved not to be pregnant.
:22:28. > :22:33.David Forde. Technically presumably Suzanne could still be prosecuted?
:22:34. > :22:38.That is a decision for the police to consider, the Public prosecution
:22:39. > :22:43.service. They are not issues for the ministers to decide. It is a
:22:44. > :22:47.possibility, a legal possibility? I wonder if you have sympathy with
:22:48. > :22:52.Suzanne's plight? One can have sympathy with the
:22:53. > :22:57.plight of an individual, but Minister's roles are to carry out
:22:58. > :23:01.their duties and individual sympathies are an issue. The
:23:02. > :23:07.consultation I conducted last year was around the issue of allowing
:23:08. > :23:13.abortions in the case of fatal abnormality because of the concerns
:23:14. > :23:17.people had for the women stuck with the dreadful diagnosis. That would
:23:18. > :23:21.not necessarily be the case for Suzanne and other women who have
:23:22. > :23:26.taken the abortion pill? I accept that is not the case, but I'm
:23:27. > :23:30.talking about where I have expressed sympathy for individuals, where it
:23:31. > :23:35.showed there was willingness on the part of Minister to say it was a
:23:36. > :23:37.difficult issue. Do you think the Stormont assembly should come up
:23:38. > :23:43.with legislation that changes to come within the parameters of human
:23:44. > :23:47.rights legislation? Is it time for Northern Ireland to move now? I
:23:48. > :23:52.conducted a consultation which began last autumn, over a year ago, on the
:23:53. > :23:59.issue of allowing abortion in the cases of fatal Faizal abnormality,
:24:00. > :24:05.rate, and incest. That is when we should act. I put that in a paper to
:24:06. > :24:09.the executive, because as a minister I have to get executive approval
:24:10. > :24:20.before I can seek to legislate. The suggestion that we should legislate
:24:21. > :24:24.in the case of fatal feet all -- abnormalities in foetuses. I hope I
:24:25. > :24:28.will have a discussion with fellow ministers eventually on the 21st of
:24:29. > :24:33.January, at the next state and executive meeting. On the question
:24:34. > :24:41.of change to the law in Northern Ireland, do you think there is
:24:42. > :24:46.appetite for changing to the 1967 abortion act, which is in place in
:24:47. > :24:53.other parts of the United Kingdom? I think there is very little appetite
:24:54. > :24:58.to change to the 1967 abortion act. I think there could be a sufficient
:24:59. > :25:03.appetite to legislate in case of the issues we're talking about, fatal
:25:04. > :25:09.abnormality in foetuses, where there is no life to protect. In the case,
:25:10. > :25:13.as you heard, of Suzanne, that means that really for people who do not
:25:14. > :25:24.face these different things, which are sexual crime, and fatal
:25:25. > :25:32.abnormality in foetuses, it would hold a heavy prison sentence
:25:33. > :25:36.question mark yes,. But the reality is I can only operate where I get
:25:37. > :25:42.the acceptance of a majority of the members of the executive, and you
:25:43. > :25:44.just had a discussion about difficulties within single party
:25:45. > :25:53.governments and Cabinet ministers disagreeing. I am a minister where
:25:54. > :26:00.there are four different parties with different views. Suzanne,
:26:01. > :26:04.nothing being discussed in terms of human rights legislation will make a
:26:05. > :26:11.difference to many women in Northern Ireland who do take the abortion
:26:12. > :26:18.hill. I wonder what you feel, public opinion... David Forde is talking
:26:19. > :26:20.about the fact they are a multiparty government in Northern Ireland. Do
:26:21. > :26:27.you accept a lot of public opinion will not be on your site in Northern
:26:28. > :26:31.Ireland? I think that outwardly a lot of people in Northern Ireland
:26:32. > :26:38.would say that they don't agree with abortion, but privately they would.
:26:39. > :26:43.I think because abortion is illegal, there is this huge stigma attached
:26:44. > :26:47.to it. It is not easy for people to come out and say I have had an
:26:48. > :26:51.abortion, or I support abortion because the parties in Stormont
:26:52. > :26:56.don't want to address that. Surely the role of the people in Stormont
:26:57. > :27:00.is to represent the people of Northern Ireland. Essentially what
:27:01. > :27:03.they're doing is ignoring half the population, sweeping us under the
:27:04. > :27:06.carpet, hoping they do not have to listen to us and will not have to
:27:07. > :27:09.deal with us. I don't want their sympathy, I want the right to
:27:10. > :27:14.control my own body. They're not going to give that to me. I wonder
:27:15. > :27:20.what that means to you and other women, who are considering this
:27:21. > :27:26.path. You are actually presumably in contravention of the law and know
:27:27. > :27:32.that. What will that mean for you? Because I know what I've done is
:27:33. > :27:39.illegal, and I know that Stormont aren't going to address it, the only
:27:40. > :27:47.way I can see going forward, is for me to make the law on workable. I've
:27:48. > :27:51.done this, it's legal and I continue to provide abortion pills for other
:27:52. > :27:56.people that need them, which is also illegal. I'm tired of hearing bears
:27:57. > :27:59.no appetite for it. Nobody has ever asked me. Thank you both very much
:28:00. > :28:02.indeed. At the start of a new year,
:28:03. > :28:05.when people naturally incline to alcohol abstinance,
:28:06. > :28:07.or at least a reduced intake, after the excesses of the festive
:28:08. > :28:10.season, the news that there is no healthy way to drink alcohol,
:28:11. > :28:13.is like kicking a man or woman 14 units a week is the absolute
:28:14. > :28:17.maximum for all, according to the Chief Medeical Officer
:28:18. > :28:21.for England, but unless you, like Nigel Farage, are contemptuous
:28:22. > :28:25.of what he calls the new "puritannical guidelines," is yet
:28:26. > :28:27.another new health campaign going to curb your enthusiasm
:28:28. > :28:29.for the demon drink? Here's our Temperance
:28:30. > :28:36.Correspondent Stephen Smith. For years and years TV news has had
:28:37. > :28:39.a desperate craving for stories about how much it's safe
:28:40. > :28:44.to drink and smoke. Wait a minute, if we all stop
:28:45. > :28:46.smoking, they'll double You may as well finish that one,
:28:47. > :28:54.it will soothe your nerves. Once upon a time we could just do
:28:55. > :28:57.what Pathe News did, and take the word of detached
:28:58. > :29:00.industry insiders on the risk In my opinion, to single out smoking
:29:01. > :29:06.as a causal agent, is, on the evidence today,
:29:07. > :29:09.completely unjustified. Thank you very much,
:29:10. > :29:11.sir, for your help. Thank you very much for letting me
:29:12. > :29:14.put our views forward. You better have a cigarette
:29:15. > :29:16.before you go. VOICEOVER: The chemicals you inhale
:29:17. > :29:20.cause mutations in your body... But surely the Government's
:29:21. > :29:24.anti-smoking messages have hit home. I think it's helped a bit,
:29:25. > :29:29.I think largely what helped is the fact there was
:29:30. > :29:32.a change in legislation. It became much more expensive,
:29:33. > :29:34.though I think basically the cost People are much more aware
:29:35. > :29:38.of the risks, but also it's If you can't smoke on the train,
:29:39. > :29:42.the plane or the restaurant, then you've got to go and huddle
:29:43. > :29:48.outside, and that's not really So what chance today's new guidance
:29:49. > :29:52.on safer drinking? The Chief Medical Officer says it's
:29:53. > :29:57.been driven by science. Well, that since the first time
:29:58. > :30:00.in over 20 years we've done a significant scientific review,
:30:01. > :30:03.and it's very complex, There are short-term consequences,
:30:04. > :30:09.and preventable mortality. Bringing all of that together,
:30:10. > :30:14.what we now have are guidelines for low risk drinking,
:30:15. > :30:18.which is 14 units in a week, spread over two, three, four days,
:30:19. > :30:28.for both men and women. In the unlikely event that you've
:30:29. > :30:31.been anywhere near a unit of alcohol this evening, you may be grateful
:30:32. > :30:34.for that clarification, One week I'm told that drinking red
:30:35. > :30:42.wine will make my heart better, another time I'm told drinking red
:30:43. > :30:45.wine won't make my heart better. I'm told I should take all sorts
:30:46. > :30:48.of strange drugs one minute, The medical advice is chaotic,
:30:49. > :30:53.all over the place, comes from everywhere, you never know
:30:54. > :30:55.what the credibility I think it's a pity that
:30:56. > :31:01.someone with as big a title as the Chief Medical Officer
:31:02. > :31:03.of Health should say things that are so extreme, that they will
:31:04. > :31:06.immediately make people say "I'm not Mrs Thatcher's former PR guru
:31:07. > :31:11.thinks his successors show little savvy about getting the message
:31:12. > :31:17.right on health. I think it has to be done
:31:18. > :31:20.with particular skill, and I don't think this government,
:31:21. > :31:23.or any other government, particularly not the current
:31:24. > :31:26.Labour Party, has any skill or any belief in the requirement
:31:27. > :31:28.for there to be a decent Now, I'm going to show you three
:31:29. > :31:36.things, and you've got to tell me Well, you seem to know what to do
:31:37. > :31:43.with that one all right. Remember - coughs and
:31:44. > :31:53.sneezes spread diseases. This campaign apparently helped
:31:54. > :31:57.a baffled Britain come to terms with the invention
:31:58. > :31:58.of the handkerchief. When you look back at public health
:31:59. > :32:03.campaigns, there is remarkably little evidence that they
:32:04. > :32:05.make a big difference. The other thing which is very
:32:06. > :32:08.difficult to factor into this is the emotional and psychological,
:32:09. > :32:14.and therefore physical benefits of being with friends
:32:15. > :32:16.and having a good laugh. So, if you kind of banned
:32:17. > :32:23.all alcohol, would you get rid of that entirely or would we go
:32:24. > :32:26.on sipping cups of coffee I don't know, I think that one
:32:27. > :32:32.is very difficult to quantify. That is all we have time for. We are