:00:09. > :00:19.# I've got scars that can't be seen. #
:00:20. > :00:23.One of the premier talents of 20th century music
:00:24. > :00:40.It's only in retrospect that we can properly evaluate his musical
:00:41. > :00:43.Does he deserve the uncritical adulation he's getting today?
:00:44. > :00:45.We'll hear from his sometime collaborator Nile Rodgers,
:00:46. > :00:47.along with Tom Robinson, Bernard Sumner and the curator
:00:48. > :00:49.of the Bowie exhibition, Victoria Broackes.
:00:50. > :00:54.And of course we'll hear plenty from the man himself.
:00:55. > :00:56.Do you think of yourself as Bowie or David Jones,
:00:57. > :01:04.I don't even know how to pronounce it any more,
:01:05. > :01:11.Also tonight, there is some other news.
:01:12. > :01:14.What the public think of tomorrow's doctors' strike.
:01:15. > :01:20.We'll discuss the results of a Newsnight poll on the subject.
:01:21. > :01:22.Newsnight hears of problems for the independent
:01:23. > :01:30.to give evidence to this inquiry because we don't have confidence
:01:31. > :01:33.in the way that our evidence is going to be handle
:01:34. > :01:45.We don't believe it's an independent inquiry.
:01:46. > :01:51.Sometimes on these occasions, the death of a national icon,
:01:52. > :01:54.people will say "It was as though we knew them personally".
:01:55. > :01:56.With David Bowie, I'd suggest it is different.
:01:57. > :01:59.We knew him, but he was not the man next door.
:02:00. > :02:02.The master of alter ego and adaptation through his career,
:02:03. > :02:05.he remained elusive and enigmatic to the end.
:02:06. > :02:08.And yet he was also familiar and ever-present.
:02:09. > :02:11.There's been a lot of looking back today, but here is Stephen Smith
:02:12. > :02:19.with his assessment of David Bowie and his career.
:02:20. > :02:22.Despite all the costume changes, it's striking how unchanging Bowie
:02:23. > :02:33.Single-minded, his own man, the star we know was remarkably
:02:34. > :02:40.The nucleus of some of his friends, a 17-year-old David Jones has just
:02:41. > :02:42.founded the Society for the prevention of cruelty
:02:43. > :02:50.I think we are all fairly tolerant, but for the last two
:02:51. > :02:53.years, we have had comments like, darling, can I carry your handbag
:02:54. > :03:04.But does this surprise you, that you get this kind of comment?
:03:05. > :03:06.Because we have got really rather long-haired, haven't you?
:03:07. > :03:14.I was learning about how to play rhythm and blues,
:03:15. > :03:17.learning how to write, finding everything that I read,
:03:18. > :03:20.every film that I saw, every bit of theatre,
:03:21. > :03:26.everything went into my mind as being in influence.
:03:27. > :03:29.Bowie as his first great alter ego Ziggy
:03:30. > :03:35.Every persona he put on was like a disguise to help him
:03:36. > :03:40.slip across the border from pop to something bigger.
:03:41. > :04:00.They said he was coming round the back. I have been waiting ages to
:04:01. > :04:06.see him. Who are you so upset? He's smashing.
:04:07. > :04:11.I thought you were doing an intro. Right. One. I was not a natural
:04:12. > :04:15.performer. I didn't feel at ease on stage, ever. I felt really
:04:16. > :04:22.comfortable going on stage as somebody else. And it seemed a
:04:23. > :04:27.rational decision to keep on doing that. So I got quite be soed with
:04:28. > :04:33.the idea of creating character after character.
:04:34. > :04:35.# Fame # Makes man who takes things over
:04:36. > :04:51.# Fame... # I wanted on to the instigator of new
:04:52. > :04:58.ideas. I wanted to turn people on to new things and new perspectives.
:04:59. > :05:03.Nothing you have seen or heard about David Bowie will prepare you for the
:05:04. > :05:07.impact of his first dramatic performance, in The Man Who Fell to
:05:08. > :05:12.Earth. This is another dimension of David
:05:13. > :05:18.Bowie, one of the few true originals of our time.
:05:19. > :05:23.Five year, that's all. I'll be back. The man who played the part of a pop
:05:24. > :05:29.star to perfection became a screen actor. For better or worse he was
:05:30. > :05:38.always David Bowie. He will land on his feet.
:05:39. > :05:44.# Let's Dance # Put on your red shoes
:05:45. > :05:48.# And dance the blues # Let's Dance
:05:49. > :05:51.# To the song they're playing on the radio. #
:05:52. > :05:58.I think we are out of characters now. I am just into suits and the
:05:59. > :06:03.suit will change from tour to tour but the bloke inside is generally
:06:04. > :06:09.much the same. Which is the real David Bowie? The lad from Brixton,
:06:10. > :06:16.the pop megastar to coin a phrase. I will bring him on. Or the
:06:17. > :06:22.40-year-old yuppy with the son at private school. I think it is all.
:06:23. > :06:27.Yuppy? Get out of here! # Golden years #
:06:28. > :06:31.He might have got rid of his post-war British teeth but not his
:06:32. > :06:36.accent. Although he seemed to spend the last years of his life in
:06:37. > :06:41.Manhattan, he was still one of ours. I think I have sold out to be
:06:42. > :06:45.honest. It is difficult, to keep integrity when you are going for
:06:46. > :06:53.that... # Little fat man who sold his soul
:06:54. > :07:03.# # Chubby little loser. #
:07:04. > :07:10.# Chubby little loser # National joke. #
:07:11. > :07:15.Not thupy little loser. # Pathetic little fat man
:07:16. > :07:21.# No-one's laughing # The clown no-one laughs at. #
:07:22. > :07:26.Do you think of yourself ASBOey or the David Jones from south London.
:07:27. > :07:30.Less an Les as Bowie. I don't even know how to pronounce it any more, I
:07:31. > :07:34.have lost track. I have always thought it was Bowie. It is a
:07:35. > :07:39.Scottish name. But no-one in Scotland pronounces it like that.
:07:40. > :07:43.The actor manager of his own life his final performance was
:07:44. > :07:51.# # Look up here
:07:52. > :08:05.# I'm in heaven # I've got scars that can't be seen.
:08:06. > :08:10.# I've got drama, can't be stolen. # Every body knows my now. #
:08:11. > :08:11.His producer said his death was no different from his life. A work of
:08:12. > :08:21.art. The New York Times wrote
:08:22. > :08:24.about David Bowie that he understood "Theatricality has more to do
:08:25. > :08:26.with presence than gimmickry, and that beautifully coordinated
:08:27. > :08:28.physical movements and well-planned music can reach an audience a lot
:08:29. > :08:30.quicker than aimless prancing At the time, he was
:08:31. > :08:41.barely known in the US. The Times was describing how Bowie
:08:42. > :08:44.stood out favourably among what it called, "tinseled English rock
:08:45. > :08:46.superstars sprouting Over the next few years,
:08:47. > :08:52.Bowie obviously stood out more - he established his artistic
:08:53. > :08:55.reputation over there. And 10 years later came
:08:56. > :08:58.the album Let's Dance. It turned out to be a huge
:08:59. > :09:01.commercial success - That was produced by Nile Rodgers,
:09:02. > :09:04.one of the founders And a little earlier
:09:05. > :09:27.I spoke to him. I just walked into a nightclub, with
:09:28. > :09:33.Billy Idol one day and early one morning, about 5am, and we just
:09:34. > :09:38.happened to notice David was sitting in the corner, all by himself,
:09:39. > :09:43.sipping on an orange juice. I just boldly walked over and introduced
:09:44. > :09:48.myself, because I knew that he, he lived in the same building as a lot
:09:49. > :09:52.of the Young Americans. They were all friends I had gone to high
:09:53. > :10:00.school with, and so I just started chatting with him, and for some
:10:01. > :10:03.reason, we instantaneously hooked up, because our conversation went
:10:04. > :10:09.from the Young Americans and the friend we knew, to jazz musicians
:10:10. > :10:14.that we idolised. And David Bowie, was he, well to be as creative as
:10:15. > :10:18.him, you have to have a vision, and you have to stick to it. Was he
:10:19. > :10:23.difficult, did you argue, what was your personal relationship like? We
:10:24. > :10:32.didn't argue because I stuck to the vision. Basically what happened is,
:10:33. > :10:41.before we did, before we wrote a note of music, we went on a, I don't
:10:42. > :10:47.know, a week long, two week long expedition, journey, if you will, of
:10:48. > :10:50.music and rock 'n' roll iconography all round the city, round income New
:10:51. > :10:55.York eNew York City, after that we had a good idea of the album, and
:10:56. > :11:01.then he said to me, that he wanted me to do what I did best. I thought
:11:02. > :11:06.that he didn't know what I did best, and I said, well, what do you think
:11:07. > :11:10.I do best? And his said, in no uncertain terms, no uncertain term,
:11:11. > :11:17.you make hits. I want you to make a hit. I was perplexed. Like David
:11:18. > :11:24.Bowie wants a hit? I mean you are coming off the Scary Monsters that
:11:25. > :11:27.is so unhit like to me in my world, so I was a little dumbfounded,
:11:28. > :11:31.but... Who was the teacher in this relationship and who was the
:11:32. > :11:35.student? Were you teaching him how to do hits or he was teaching you
:11:36. > :11:42.how to be the cool rock guy? We became partner, so it was a sort of
:11:43. > :11:45.symbiotic relationship, so this is how David made me clear, as to what
:11:46. > :11:49.the record should sound like. He came to my apartment one day and he
:11:50. > :11:54.was holding something behind his back. I wasn't really paying
:11:55. > :11:58.attention to it that much, because he would knock on my door, I would
:11:59. > :12:03.open the door and he had it behind his back. He said Nile darling, I
:12:04. > :12:10.want my record to sound like this. And it was a picture of little
:12:11. > :12:13.Richard addin a red suit, getting into a red Cadillac, and I knew what
:12:14. > :12:21.he meant. I knew exactly what he meant. I knew that he didn't want a
:12:22. > :12:26.record that went... Good golly... I knew he didn't want that, I knew
:12:27. > :12:31.from the way that picture looked, that he wanted something that was
:12:32. > :12:38.evergreen, that would look like the future even in the year 2050, or
:12:39. > :12:42.whatever, makes no difference what year it was, it would be, it would
:12:43. > :12:49.seem plausible that a band, a live band could walk in and just say, we
:12:50. > :12:52.just made this record today, like today, if you heard Let's Dance
:12:53. > :12:56.company 2 even though we may not have had the type of things that you
:12:57. > :13:02.have in current music, but you could still believe that a live rock 'n'
:13:03. > :13:07.roll band cutlet's dance if you just heard that today. It would be
:13:08. > :13:11.believable. Let us about that. It is a notable riff, a catch in Let's
:13:12. > :13:32.Dance. # Let's Dance. #
:13:33. > :13:36.The first part of the riff, the staccato, that is my riff. The delay
:13:37. > :13:40.part of it was the engineer, and I just found out from him, only a few
:13:41. > :13:45.months ago, that that was an accident, that we just happened to
:13:46. > :13:50.walk in the studio, while he was looking for the different delay
:13:51. > :13:54.times to put on the different, on various instruments but he had them
:13:55. > :13:58.all going at the same time. I heard that, coming out of the guitar, and
:13:59. > :14:01.the t on the different, on various instruments but he had them all
:14:02. > :14:04.going at the same time. I heard that, coming out of the guitar, and
:14:05. > :14:06.the horn, and t on the different, on various instruments but he had them
:14:07. > :14:09.all going at the same time. I heard that, coming out of the guitar, and
:14:10. > :14:12.the horn, and I was like "That's he same time. I heard that, coming out
:14:13. > :14:15.of the guitar, and the horn, and I was like "That's amazing," and he he
:14:16. > :14:18.same time. I heard that, coming out of the guitar, and the horn, and I
:14:19. > :14:21.was like "That's amazing," and he was like "Cool." Look. David Bowie,
:14:22. > :14:23.I think, said after this album, this was his best selling album Let's
:14:24. > :14:26.Dance. He said it was very difficult after that, to produce, it was
:14:27. > :14:28.difficult to come up with the next thing, really. It wasn't that he
:14:29. > :14:31.couldn't come up with the next thing, it is just that I think that
:14:32. > :14:34.he expected people and this is just my guess, that he expected people
:14:35. > :14:38.wanted him to make another big hit, but he also wanted to do it his way.
:14:39. > :14:45.And, because if he wanted another one, you would think, he would call
:14:46. > :14:52.me again and say Hay Nile let's do Let's Dance 2. Instead he did
:14:53. > :15:00.something completely different and it didn't quite work commercially.
:15:01. > :15:10.Of all the things the David Bowie did, apart from Let's Dance, what
:15:11. > :15:16.did you like the most? I really am a fan of his songs, so I loved the
:15:17. > :15:22.earlier stuff. Let me put this in context so you really get this. The
:15:23. > :15:28.very first time I ever heard of him, I met this girl in Miami Beach, she
:15:29. > :15:31.was a photographer at this restaurant but I went to, and she
:15:32. > :15:36.says, they have a new beach right down the road, and I would like to
:15:37. > :15:43.spend a night there with you, and I want to play this artist but I love.
:15:44. > :15:51.So what did I say? Of course! So we went to this beach, took off our
:15:52. > :15:58.clothes, and she played, Ziggy played guitar... And suffragette
:15:59. > :16:04.city and all of that stuff. I had this most gorgeous girl, we are
:16:05. > :16:09.lying on the beach, and David Bowie is jamming away, and it was killing
:16:10. > :16:13.me. It was one of the most surreal, amazing moments, a hippy kind of
:16:14. > :16:19.moment, that you could have. Thank you so much for your time.
:16:20. > :16:24.An anecdote that tells you how musical tastes are born.
:16:25. > :16:27.David Bowie was born in 1947, in the first wave of the baby boom,
:16:28. > :16:29.and there's no doubt that the generation of baby boomers
:16:30. > :16:31.who followed behind him felt his presence particularly
:16:32. > :16:36.strongly - the Monty Python cohort, people who are now over 50.
:16:37. > :16:39.But one of the reasons why Bowie's death has been such a big event
:16:40. > :16:41.worldwide is, of course, that he managed to appeal
:16:42. > :16:47.From a guest appearance on the Bing Crosby Christmas Special
:16:48. > :16:57.in 1977, to a cameo appearance in the movie Zoolander,
:16:58. > :16:59.Spongebob's Atlantis Square Pantis in 2007, Bowie compressed
:17:00. > :17:11.I am joined now by a panel of baby boomers to discuss his legacy. New
:17:12. > :17:15.order Frenchman Bernard Sumner in Salford, and here, Victoria Brooks,
:17:16. > :17:19.who curated the V exhibition on David Bowie and the musician and DJ
:17:20. > :17:26.Tom Robinson. Good evening to you all. Bernard, let's start with the
:17:27. > :17:29.musical influence. Obviously there are lots of different influences in
:17:30. > :17:39.him, but which bits did influence you or didn't? The first time I ever
:17:40. > :17:42.heard him, I was 13, and I was here in Salford, but in North Salford,
:17:43. > :17:47.and I was hanging around the streets with a group of my friends, and
:17:48. > :17:55.someone opened the door to a house, and out came Space Oddity. I was
:17:56. > :18:03.only 13 and not really into music at that stage, the Latics Aryans was
:18:04. > :18:11.part of my musical awakening -- but that experience was part of my
:18:12. > :18:18.musical awakening. To hear something like that coming out of a house
:18:19. > :18:27.playing on the radio was surreal. Then later on, it was the Glam rock
:18:28. > :18:39.years, and Ziggy Stardust and all of that, but what really made an
:18:40. > :18:45.impression on me was Heroes, because the band we started, Joy Division,
:18:46. > :18:49.started in 1977, and that came out in 1977. The B-sides were
:18:50. > :18:56.instrumental and had an austere sound that suited and what kind of a
:18:57. > :19:02.soundtrack to the city we lived in, Manchester, which was
:19:03. > :19:10.post-industrial chaos. No one had jobs, it seemed to rain all the
:19:11. > :19:16.time. But that music was a perfect soundtrack to this city. And then of
:19:17. > :19:26.course you had the other sides of the records, songs like Sound and
:19:27. > :19:31.Vision, and that, along with Heroes are my two all-time favourite David
:19:32. > :19:37.Bowie records. So we have heard a bit about the music. Let me bring
:19:38. > :19:43.the others in for a moment. Looking slightly beyond the music, culture.
:19:44. > :19:49.The exhibition was obviously more than just David Bowie records
:19:50. > :19:54.playing. We did have music throughout the show, and I think our
:19:55. > :20:00.first thought when we first came to be working on a show was that Sound
:20:01. > :20:04.and Vision had to be at the very heart of the exhibition, and the
:20:05. > :20:09.artefacts were around that story. But of course what made him so
:20:10. > :20:14.interesting from our perspective, because we are about art, design and
:20:15. > :20:20.performance, is that he draws his influences from such a wide range of
:20:21. > :20:27.places. So he is eclectic. Hugely eclectic across time and genre and
:20:28. > :20:33.everything you can imagine. And he did act, he did art. Would we be
:20:34. > :20:39.talking about him as an artist or an actor if he wasn't David Bowie of
:20:40. > :20:43.Space Oddity? Interesting. We had some very early recordings of
:20:44. > :20:46.interviews that he gave in the 1960s, and he definitely wasn't
:20:47. > :20:52.certain about whether he was going to be a singer, but he was going to
:20:53. > :21:01.be a performer of some kind. He auditioned for various musicals, he
:21:02. > :21:06.auditioned for Hair, for example, he didn't get in but his girlfriend
:21:07. > :21:13.did. His other things were great as well, he was highly acclaimed in
:21:14. > :21:16.something like the Elephant Man. But video was crucial as well as sound
:21:17. > :21:27.in the exhibition. And let's rob on it one more step. Tom Robinson,
:21:28. > :21:32.1977, this was androgynous rock, this was quite something. I couldn't
:21:33. > :21:38.possibly have done that if it hadn't been fit David Bowie before. He and
:21:39. > :21:44.his music made such an impact on me in my early 20s in 1972 that I just
:21:45. > :21:48.saw to myself that if I ever had a chance to do the same for other what
:21:49. > :21:52.he had done for me in terms of changing my life seen, that I had
:21:53. > :21:56.choices, that it was possible to have a happy life if you were
:21:57. > :22:02.attracted to the same sex, that message was not there before because
:22:03. > :22:07.in the 60s, men went to prison if they were gay, so there was not one
:22:08. > :22:10.role model. David Bowie was the first person who came along and said
:22:11. > :22:15.it was cool. He was a bit more ahead of his time than you were crediting,
:22:16. > :22:25.because it was gender bending as well as sexuality. It was the full
:22:26. > :22:28.panoply, LGBT and beyond. A wide variety of people who felt that they
:22:29. > :22:33.didn't fit in with the straitjacket of society, even in the supposedly
:22:34. > :22:38.swinging 60s we still had that. But they suddenly relies did this person
:22:39. > :22:43.that he was the possibility of a wider world. But it wouldn't have
:22:44. > :22:47.meant a thing of the music hadn't have been astonishing. So why did
:22:48. > :22:56.David Bowie stick out among Glam rock artists. There were others,
:22:57. > :23:00.Marc Boland is the most notable. But he shone above most of the others
:23:01. > :23:14.who tried it. Because he transitioned through it. Mark Bolan
:23:15. > :23:19.was good, too, my first record was by him. The David Bowie went on to
:23:20. > :23:25.do so many other things than Glam rock. Glam Rock was a mixed bag,
:23:26. > :23:31.there were some bad things in it, but right until he has just died,
:23:32. > :23:36.you stay the distance and made fantastic records from the day he
:23:37. > :23:41.started. Not every single one, but he made a lot of brilliant records.
:23:42. > :23:52.Is there anything after 1990 that sticks out? Obviously his career
:23:53. > :24:10.wasn't the same after 1990. I liked title The Next Day. It is strange,
:24:11. > :24:15.because the band I started, Joy Division, we started off
:24:16. > :24:23.introspective and austere, very intense, and David Bowie was very
:24:24. > :24:26.open and forward and outward. And we have become like that now, and he
:24:27. > :24:33.has become like we were when we started out. It is usually the other
:24:34. > :24:37.way around. Is there only other artist who you could have an
:24:38. > :24:40.exhibition around in the way you did around David Bowie? What is it take
:24:41. > :24:46.to be like that? I think there is no other artist like him. There are
:24:47. > :24:51.other artist we could have an exhibition around because we were
:24:52. > :24:56.doing -- we would do a different story, but the way that he took
:24:57. > :25:04.ideas from everything to Dada, surrealism, George Orwell, I don't
:25:05. > :25:07.think there is an artist who has the breadth of influences and the reach
:25:08. > :25:13.that he had, because he managed to be a cult performer at the same time
:25:14. > :25:17.as being massively popular, and I think that is very own usual
:25:18. > :25:22.position. Tom, it feels like his period was the period where music
:25:23. > :25:25.was a great shaping force. Yes, it was the great bush telegraph through
:25:26. > :25:31.which culture was transmitted, because we didn't have an Internet.
:25:32. > :25:34.Pop songs gave us that kind of information, and even into the
:25:35. > :25:39.hip-hop era that has been true, but the Internet has changed a lot. Was
:25:40. > :25:43.it inevitable that he would lead this alternative life up until the
:25:44. > :25:49.1990s, and then settle down, he lived in New York? It isn't just
:25:50. > :25:54.that he lived an alternative life. He blazed a trail for other people,
:25:55. > :25:58.and he went through the mill, and he suffered in his career in America
:25:59. > :26:01.because of some of his excesses on this side of the pond, never achieve
:26:02. > :26:07.the stature that he secretly always wanted. And I think he earned the
:26:08. > :26:10.right down a quiet retirement and to have the last 20 years of his life
:26:11. > :26:16.where he had his privacy and could do whatever he wanted, and fair play
:26:17. > :26:21.to him. We have to leave it there, thank you very much indeed.
:26:22. > :26:24.Before we move on to other things, let's just spend a minute listening
:26:25. > :26:27.Back in 2000, turn of the millennium, he spoke
:26:28. > :26:34.This exchange on the internet is particularly interesting.
:26:35. > :26:36.You don't think that some of the claims being made for it
:26:37. > :26:41.When the telephone was invented, people made amazing claims for it.
:26:42. > :26:46.The president at the time, when it was first invented,
:26:47. > :26:52.He said he foresaw the day in the future when every town
:26:53. > :27:04.I don't think we've even seen the tip of the iceberg.
:27:05. > :27:08.I think the potential of what the internet is going to do
:27:09. > :27:14.to society, both good and bad, is unimaginable.
:27:15. > :27:16.I think we're actually on the cusp of something
:27:17. > :27:21.It's just a tool, though, isn't it?
:27:22. > :27:36.It's simply a different delivery system, though.
:27:37. > :27:40.Yeah, I'm actually talking about the actual context
:27:41. > :27:45.and the state of content is going to be so different
:27:46. > :27:47.to anything we can really envisage at the moment,
:27:48. > :27:51.where the interplay between the user and the provider will be
:27:52. > :27:55.so in simpatico, it is going to crush our ideas of what mediums
:27:56. > :28:10.Jeremy Edwards just playing devils advocate!
:28:11. > :28:12.And you can watch the full 16 minutes of Jeremy's encounter
:28:13. > :28:15.with David Bowie on the Newsnight YouTube channel and Facebook page.
:28:16. > :28:18.Tomorrow, the NHS faces a day of disruption -
:28:19. > :28:25.Now you know what the junior doctors think of Jeremy Hunt,
:28:26. > :28:28.but do you know what the public think of the junior doctors?
:28:29. > :28:30.Well, we've been trying to find an answer to that question,
:28:31. > :28:33.so we commissioned a poll with Health Service Journal
:28:34. > :28:42.On the eve of the first doctors' strike in 40 years,
:28:43. > :28:45.we have stuck a polling thermometer under the tongue of the English
:28:46. > :28:49.When asked, "Would you support or oppose junior doctors striking
:28:50. > :28:50.if they still provided emergency care?", 66%
:28:51. > :28:59.For the first two planned strikes, the doctors say they will still
:29:00. > :29:04.provide emergency cover, but for the third planned strike say
:29:05. > :29:08.In these circumstances, support drops to 44%,
:29:09. > :29:11.but still ahead of those opposed to the action,
:29:12. > :29:15.The final question we asked was about why the doctors
:29:16. > :29:21.The politicians are offering their diagnoses.
:29:22. > :29:23.In today's Telegraph, the Mayor of London,
:29:24. > :29:26."It strikes me at least some of these people
:29:27. > :29:28.are more interested in politics than their patients.
:29:29. > :29:35.The BMA leadership is in the grip of advanced Corbynitis."
:29:36. > :29:42.But that attitude wasn't reflected in our sample.
:29:43. > :29:44.Only 8% thought the strike had a political cause.
:29:45. > :29:46.64% thought it was about work issues, such as long hours,
:29:47. > :29:50.So, at the moment, the English public seems to be behind
:29:51. > :29:52.the doctors, though that of course could shift,
:29:53. > :29:57.as the impact of the strike becomes clearer.
:29:58. > :30:00.Joining me to discuss whether to strike or not
:30:01. > :30:03.is the Conservative MP and head of the Health Select Committee Sarah
:30:04. > :30:04.Wollaston, and junior doctor Rachel Clarke,
:30:05. > :30:18.Before we talk about the merits of the strike, the merits of the case
:30:19. > :30:22.of the junior doctors, scale of one-to-one 00, how much sympathy do
:30:23. > :30:26.you have with their argument? I o do have a great deal of sympathy but we
:30:27. > :30:30.need to be careful about the stress on union doctors and the long hours
:30:31. > :30:33.they work, what has been achieved so far, there has been significant
:30:34. > :30:37.compromise on some of this, particularly round the issue of
:30:38. > :30:45.whether we would see a slide back in to the dangerously long hours my
:30:46. > :30:47.generation of doctors used to work. Having the retention of financial
:30:48. > :30:51.penalties was important. But you are against the strike. I just don't
:30:52. > :30:57.feel it is right for junior doctors to go on strike. I imagine it
:30:58. > :31:00.pleases you that the public, basically in our poll, support the
:31:01. > :31:04.junior doctor, particularly if you are not damaging emergency cover. It
:31:05. > :31:10.pleases me, it is no surprise at all. I think the public trust
:31:11. > :31:13.doctors for a reason. We go into medicine because our one reason is
:31:14. > :31:17.to look after them. What about on your third strike you are prancing
:31:18. > :31:22.to withdraw emergency cover, aren't you. There will be emergency cover
:31:23. > :31:25.from consultants and nurse, but why given what the public think don't
:31:26. > :31:31.you say make the third strike the same as the other two, where we
:31:32. > :31:36.don't withdraw emergency cover? I think, I can't answer that from a
:31:37. > :31:41.BMA perspective. I am just an ordinary grass roots doctor, but
:31:42. > :31:44.from my perspective, I think that we are clearly striking initially
:31:45. > :31:48.tomorrow in the safest way we can, so we are making a statement, and we
:31:49. > :31:52.hope very much that the Government will listen to that statement while
:31:53. > :31:57.absolutely preserving our patients' safety. There is a period of time
:31:58. > :32:04.between tomorrow's strike and the all out strike in February, and I
:32:05. > :32:09.see that period as an opportunity for this Government to finally
:32:10. > :32:15.recognise that in coming up with a new contract based on an entire new
:32:16. > :32:20.set of NHS service, so the Conservative party's seven day NHS's
:32:21. > :32:24.new activity, with no extra money whatsoever, so how is it provided?
:32:25. > :32:30.This new activity as weekends with no extra doctors? By makes us work
:32:31. > :32:33.harder. The public are clearly sympathetic to the strike,
:32:34. > :32:37.basically, and you are sympathetic to the cause, so what is wrong with
:32:38. > :32:40.the strike? Because first of all I don't think I will achieve anything.
:32:41. > :32:44.I think it will harm patients and I don't think that is right either for
:32:45. > :32:48.patients or doctors, I think particularly when they do move, if
:32:49. > :32:53.that does happen, to withdrawing emergency cover, I think there will
:32:54. > :32:56.be significantly greater harms for patients and I think that will risk
:32:57. > :33:01.undermining that very important bond of trust, because as we have heard,
:33:02. > :33:04.there are the most trusted profission, I think there are grave
:33:05. > :33:08.dangers that will be undermined. Let me put this to you, we asked the
:33:09. > :33:13.public whether they thought it was a strike about pay or patient safety.
:33:14. > :33:16.I think you think it is about patient safety don't you Rachel the
:33:17. > :33:22.public thought it was about pay, probably. Yes, again that is not a
:33:23. > :33:28.surprise, the Conservative Party, the Government have been furiously
:33:29. > :33:31.spinning this, as a pay dispute. And from my perspective that is
:33:32. > :33:37.categorically not why I am striking tomorrow. My vows as a doctor, I
:33:38. > :33:40.take very very seriously, and I withdraw my patient care tomorrow,
:33:41. > :33:46.for one reason, and one reason alone, and that is to protect my
:33:47. > :33:51.patients. For me, and for all junior doctors the essence of this strike
:33:52. > :33:57.is not pay, it is safe staffing levels. You believe that? I think
:33:58. > :34:00.the situation has changed. What it is is about reducing the length of
:34:01. > :34:05.working time doctors can be forced to work. It is about reducing the
:34:06. > :34:12.number of consecutive nights they can work, the other thing is greater
:34:13. > :34:15.safeguard foger doctors who want to report they are being forced to
:34:16. > :34:21.Bjork hour, the financial penalties are being brought back, so I think
:34:22. > :34:27.there are been changes. Are you saying they lying when they say it
:34:28. > :34:32.is not about pay. I used to teach doctors before I went into politics,
:34:33. > :34:37.I remember in 2007, the huge distress there was round the end
:34:38. > :34:43.task as it was brought in, the way doctors applied for job, what we
:34:44. > :34:46.have seen is a kind of, the junior doctors lead a more nomadic
:34:47. > :34:54.lifestyle, there are many ways they work which are divot for them. In in
:34:55. > :35:00.many respects I imagine Sarah did ludicrous kind of 90 hour shifts,
:35:01. > :35:04.you are not doing that now? Sure with the greatest respect, Sarah,
:35:05. > :35:08.you are now an MP, you haven't been a doctor for some time, and you
:35:09. > :35:13.certainly haven't been a junior dock for for many years. Can I come back
:35:14. > :35:16.on that point. I would like to answer the question if I may. I am a
:35:17. > :35:20.junior doctor on the front line now, I know what is happening now. What I
:35:21. > :35:24.know now is recruitment and retention of junior doctors is so
:35:25. > :35:28.bad, that virtually every on call shift I work in my hospital, there
:35:29. > :35:33.is a gap in the rota t and to put that in terms that the public can
:35:34. > :35:39.understand, that means instead of carrying my crash bleep for cardiac
:35:40. > :35:42.arrest, my emergency bleep, where I am responsible for maybe one, 200
:35:43. > :35:46.patients who might have emergencies through the night. I get given the
:35:47. > :35:52.bleep of another doctor who isn't there because there is a gap. I am
:35:53. > :35:57.covering 400. This contract is going to reduce morale, and make reCruise
:35:58. > :36:02.cruetment and retention worse and hence the safety implications. --
:36:03. > :36:06.recruitment. To come back on the fact I used to teach doctor,
:36:07. > :36:11.including foundation two doctors in hospital, you know, and up until
:36:12. > :36:14.2015, I have a daughter who is a junior doctor currently spending a
:36:15. > :36:20.year in Australia, but of course it wasn't pay and conditions that
:36:21. > :36:24.drives many junior doctors to have that year abroad, it subpoena often
:36:25. > :36:27.other issues to how they can co-ordinate their rotas with their
:36:28. > :36:29.partners and so on. The argument will continue. Thank you both.
:36:30. > :36:32.You have not heard much about the Conservative Party's
:36:33. > :36:35.bullying scandal in recent weeks, partly because the party's inquiry
:36:36. > :36:37.into what went on and what went wrong is getting underway.
:36:38. > :36:41.It's meant to be an independent inquiry, run by a top law firm.
:36:42. > :36:43.For the party to put the scandal behind it,
:36:44. > :36:44.it needs that inquiry to be credible.
:36:45. > :36:47.However, Newsnight has learned that not all is going well.
:36:48. > :36:49.Some important witnesses are reluctant to take part,
:36:50. > :36:51.sceptical of the outcome, of of their evidence
:36:52. > :36:59.Nick Hopkins has been speaking to them.
:37:00. > :37:06.So tragic, the Prime Minister pledged an urgent investigation.
:37:07. > :37:09.It is not something that any parent should have to go through.
:37:10. > :37:14.What the Conservative Party must do and what it is doing and what I have
:37:15. > :37:21.ensured is happening is that there is a proper investigation.
:37:22. > :37:24.Over the past few days Newsnight has spoken to 14 people who count
:37:25. > :37:26.themselves as potentially key witnesses in the Tory bullying
:37:27. > :37:35.And nine of them have told us they will not give evidence.
:37:36. > :37:40.All of these nine are either former members of staff at CC HQ
:37:41. > :37:48.They say they were victims of bullying, sexual abuse,
:37:49. > :37:51.blackmail, but none of them have confidence in this investigation.
:37:52. > :37:53.This woman is refusing to participate in the inquiry.
:37:54. > :37:58.She fears witness intimidation, a legal threats.
:37:59. > :38:01.I am worried that Mark Clarke and his associates will find out
:38:02. > :38:03.who I am, link my ID with what I have said,
:38:04. > :38:07.and find out where I live, who I am, where I work.
:38:08. > :38:11.And that he and his associates will come after me and try to use
:38:12. > :38:13.force and intimidation to try to get me to retract
:38:14. > :38:19.In November, Natasha told Newsnight Clarke bullied
:38:20. > :38:23.The initial letter she and others received from the law firm
:38:24. > :38:25.inviting her to be a witness did little to dispel her anxiety.
:38:26. > :38:48.In December, Josh Hitchens discovered a complaint
:38:49. > :38:54.he had made to the party in 2014 about bullying appeared to have been
:38:55. > :39:03.Clifford Chance are gathering the evidence, so the witness
:39:04. > :39:05.transcripts and everything else, they are passing them directly
:39:06. > :39:09.to the Conservative Party Board, who will make an assessment of them,
:39:10. > :39:17.edit them and publish a report with them compiled.
:39:18. > :39:19.There's a lot of people I know, including myself, are unwilling
:39:20. > :39:22.to give evidence to this inquiry because we don't have confidence
:39:23. > :39:25.in the way that our evidence is going to be handled
:39:26. > :39:28.We don't believe it is an independent inquiry.
:39:29. > :39:30.That very fact there is a perception of lack of independence
:39:31. > :39:33.and integrity in the process nullifies it, because a lot lot
:39:34. > :39:36.and integrity in the process nullifies it, because a lot
:39:37. > :39:38.of people who have crucial bodies of evidence aren't willing
:39:39. > :39:40.to support that evidence, because they don't believe
:39:41. > :39:44.And that is the problem for the Tory party.
:39:45. > :39:47.To draw a line under this issue, to make sure that the situation
:39:48. > :39:51.never happens again, the inquiry has to be credible.
:39:52. > :39:54.And to be credible, all the key witnesses need to give evidence.
:39:55. > :39:59.If they don't, then the clamour of those who say the party failed
:40:00. > :40:04.in its duty of care to Elliott Johnson will only grow louder.
:40:05. > :40:10.It is an investigation by a commercial firm
:40:11. > :40:14.of solicitors who have had links with the Conservative Party
:40:15. > :40:21.into certain aspects of the Conservative
:40:22. > :40:23.Party behaviour along the terms of reference decided
:40:24. > :40:27.It is not an independent investigation.
:40:28. > :40:31.The inquiry into what happened in the
:40:32. > :40:34.Conservative Party is according to Clifford Chance of making good
:40:35. > :40:36.progress, and in a statement tonight, they said witnesses
:40:37. > :40:53.would be able to insist on confidentiality.
:40:54. > :40:55.The student vote is really important.
:40:56. > :40:57.Elliot Johnson's family are conducting their own
:40:58. > :40:59.inquiry into bullying within the Tory party.
:41:00. > :41:02.They think it is the only way to get to the truth.
:41:03. > :41:04.The Tory party says it can't say anything
:41:05. > :41:16.There is more David Bowie coming up here on BBC Two.
:41:17. > :41:19.Five years in the Making of an Icon the programme is called.
:41:20. > :41:21.So we leave you with Ziggy Stardust, performing Five Years
:41:22. > :41:24.on the Old Grey Whistle Test, 44 years ago in 1972.
:41:25. > :41:40.# If the black hadn't pulled her off.
:41:41. > :41:47.# I think she would have killed them.
:41:48. > :41:55.# Fixed his stare to the wheels of a Cadillac
:41:56. > :42:00.# A cop knelt and kissed the feet of a priest
:42:01. > :42:05.# And a queer threw up at the sight of that.
:42:06. > :42:09.# I think I saw you in an ice-cream parlour.
:42:10. > :42:14.# Drinking milkshakes, cold and long.
:42:15. > :42:18.# Smiling and waving and looking so fine.
:42:19. > :42:24.# Don't think you knew you were in my song
:42:25. > :42:57.Rtners and so on. The argument will continue. Thank you both.
:42:58. > :42:58.After the spring-like mild weather we saw,