:00:07. > :00:09.It's one of those apparently small issues that tells
:00:10. > :00:13.Red painted front doors, a new front line in the arguments
:00:14. > :00:30.Who did it, and why? I'd like to talk to Mr Monk about the red doors
:00:31. > :00:33.for the asylum seekers. And we're here to talk about how
:00:34. > :00:39.and where asylum seekers are housed. And in Davos we'll ask Kofi Annan
:00:40. > :00:42.if we're handling the migration Is there an invisible ninth planet
:00:43. > :00:46.secretly orbiting on the far edge Nasa's chief scientist
:00:47. > :00:51.is here to help us out. Also tonight, the Gang of Four,
:00:52. > :00:53.the Limehouse Declaration We look back at the last big split
:00:54. > :01:12.on the left, and look Labour MPs are thinking, I think,
:01:13. > :01:16.prematurely, about creating a new party. Because they see you can do
:01:17. > :01:23.it. It may not have succeeded in every aspect, but that is an option.
:01:24. > :01:26.The challenge of Europe's refugee and migrant crisis
:01:27. > :01:33.There's the macro question - whether the current so-called Dublin
:01:34. > :01:35.rule works, that the country of arrival has to take
:01:36. > :01:42.But just as telling was a micro issue, highlighted by a report
:01:43. > :01:46.A small and yet very significant issue.
:01:47. > :01:49.In Middlesbrough, front doors of many homes allocated to asylum
:01:50. > :01:51.seekers were painted red, in what turned out to be
:01:52. > :01:58.The homes belonged to a subcontractor of G4S called
:01:59. > :02:06.Red, it seems, was just the colour they chose for their property.
:02:07. > :02:08.But should they have known it was causing problems?
:02:09. > :02:11.And a far bigger question emerges - how do we choose where asylum
:02:12. > :02:15.John Sweeney has spent the day in Middlesbrough
:02:16. > :02:21.It does contain some bad language - and it's not from John Sweeney.
:02:22. > :02:30.If it's a red door, it's a refugee. Welcome to the union Street area of
:02:31. > :02:36.Middlesbrough, where you can pick up a house for ?45,000, and guess what,
:02:37. > :02:39.lots of refugees end living here. Locals say they know where they live
:02:40. > :02:47.because their houses have got rid doors. Civilised societies have a
:02:48. > :02:51.duty to look after refugees. In Britain, the Government franchise
:02:52. > :02:59.that out G4S, whose contract it to a property company, Jomast, who have a
:03:00. > :03:04.signature look. Would you like to have a black door, for example?
:03:05. > :03:10.Basically, it is red door, people can find out who we are very easily
:03:11. > :03:18.full of they can? They can find out who we are, we are from not here.
:03:19. > :03:27.Not everyone here is colour-blind. I just come out, I saw two young
:03:28. > :03:39.girls, I spotted them and said why are you throwing that our window?
:03:40. > :03:52.They said, locking black, get out of our country. This man lives behind a
:03:53. > :04:02.red door, too. Fires have been said outside his house and the homes of
:04:03. > :04:07.other refugees. When I compare the two issues, I actually preferred the
:04:08. > :04:13.physical torture I have had in the past than this. Why? This is a big
:04:14. > :04:19.statement, I understand that, but with the physical torture, at some
:04:20. > :04:22.point those people who tortured me. Beating, but when I am here in this
:04:23. > :04:37.house, the mental torture never stops. It is a continuous daily
:04:38. > :04:42.torture. The problem is the consequences of asylum in society
:04:43. > :04:46.are not visited on Richard poor alike, and the reason for that is
:04:47. > :04:50.the cost of house prices. Middlesbrough, the country's poorest
:04:51. > :04:55.town, has more asylum seekers than any other area of Britain. Four out
:04:56. > :05:03.of ten councils don't has a single asylum seeker, and that includes
:05:04. > :05:10.David Cameron's constituency of Witney. This is the home of Stuart
:05:11. > :05:15.Monk, the owner of Jomast, said to be worth ?175 million. Let's go and
:05:16. > :05:21.talk to the man behind the black door.
:05:22. > :05:29.Hello, it's John Sweeney here from BBC Newsnight. I'd like to talk to
:05:30. > :05:35.Mr Monk. About the red doors for the asylum seekers. But later, he did
:05:36. > :05:42.talk to the BBC. I think it's been blown out of proportion. It wasn't
:05:43. > :05:48.an issue before today, and as I say, the facts are that there was no
:05:49. > :05:57.reporting of this issue by any asylum seekers, and that goes for
:05:58. > :06:02.both ourselves and for G4S. But that is not how others remember it. Do
:06:03. > :06:05.you think it is likely to make the accommodation more safe, painting
:06:06. > :06:08.the doors different colour, in this case, read, so that whole
:06:09. > :06:16.neighbourhood knows who the asylum seekers are? Do you think that is a
:06:17. > :06:19.good idea? The fact that our supplier, Jomast, who supplied
:06:20. > :06:25.services to asylum seekers in the previous contract as well as with
:06:26. > :06:29.G4S, I can't comment on the doors being painted red, but I will take
:06:30. > :06:37.that point away. And Newsnight understands this issue was flagged
:06:38. > :06:39.up four years ago. We were at a meeting where the whole thing was
:06:40. > :06:46.discussed and gone into. Where was that meeting? It was in September 20
:06:47. > :06:51.12. So it has been going on for quite some time. There is no excuse
:06:52. > :06:55.for anybody to say they didn't know about it. Do you think that there
:06:56. > :07:01.has been adequate supervision by the Government of this issue? I think
:07:02. > :07:04.there needs to be a lot more supervision of this contract, a lot
:07:05. > :07:12.more. People have come here because they are seeking sanctuary. Clearly
:07:13. > :07:16.the refugees have effectively been colour-coded, and for too
:07:17. > :07:16.the refugees have effectively been people in the know haven't been
:07:17. > :07:18.listening. I'm joined by Dame Margaret Hodge,
:07:19. > :07:47.who was chair of the public accounts committee which looked into some
:07:48. > :07:53.of the conditions of these houses and first heard reports
:07:54. > :07:58.of the red doors in 2014. She was something of an enemy of G4S
:07:59. > :08:01.won more than one occasion. And from Strasbourg,
:08:02. > :08:11.Ukip's migration spokesman, Margaret Hodge, what is very
:08:12. > :08:15.interesting is that you did spot the issue of red doors, but you didn't
:08:16. > :08:18.follow it up or make anything of it. It is only the times bringing it up
:08:19. > :08:22.today that has brought it to everybody's attention. First of all,
:08:23. > :08:28.I'm really angry with G4S, because through their stupidity they have
:08:29. > :08:32.allowed this programme tonight to interview Ukip who no doubt will
:08:33. > :08:35.bang on about how we have got too many asylum seekers, too many
:08:36. > :08:40.immigrants, too many refugees, and they have allowed it to be exploited
:08:41. > :08:45.in the wrong way, and that makes me angry. The second thing to say is
:08:46. > :08:47.when we did that hearing, it was raised, G4S said they would go away
:08:48. > :08:53.and look for it, the permanent secretary for the Home Office said
:08:54. > :08:57.he would do a very thorough check on the quality of the accommodation,
:08:58. > :09:01.but we were also raising other issues, because the quality of the
:09:02. > :09:07.accommodation that was being offered by G4S was frankly shocking. Nine
:09:08. > :09:15.families living on one floor with only two toilets, one hostel in
:09:16. > :09:19.another area in a red light district where women felt they were being
:09:20. > :09:25.looked at... So general picture wasn't good. But you didn't follow
:09:26. > :09:30.up on red doors? You didn't go back to G4S and say, you said you would
:09:31. > :09:33.come back on this? We assume that when people say they are going to go
:09:34. > :09:37.away and do something, they do it, and we assume in the permanent
:09:38. > :09:40.Secretary to the Home Office says he is concerned about the quality of
:09:41. > :09:44.the accommodation, that he will make regular checks. One of the things
:09:45. > :09:48.that stands me is that in the statement today, what the Home
:09:49. > :09:51.Office have said is that they check the third of the accommodation every
:09:52. > :09:56.month. If they were doing that, somebody should have tweaked that
:09:57. > :09:59.this was an incendiary way of stigmatising asylum seekers. Let me
:10:00. > :10:06.bring Stephen Wolf in. Margaret Hodge says you will make political
:10:07. > :10:09.capital of this. Can we just talk about the policy of how we
:10:10. > :10:17.distribute asylum seekers around the country. Do you think the system is
:10:18. > :10:22.working? You are quite right, I think the colour of the red doors is
:10:23. > :10:27.simply a red herring. The real issue is the collapse of our asylum policy
:10:28. > :10:31.system and the way that not only do we allocate across the country, but
:10:32. > :10:35.also the tone and level of the debate as has just been shown by
:10:36. > :10:40.Margaret. Unfortunately she seems to go along the same lines of once
:10:41. > :10:46.leader Gordon Brown that would call people a bigot for raising the issue
:10:47. > :10:49.of immigration, or indeed her Shadow secretary of defence who makes
:10:50. > :10:54.complaints about people who have British flags during campaigns. I
:10:55. > :11:03.just want to get onto the issue... Si I am doing. The collapse of the
:11:04. > :11:06.asylum system is due to the weight of the numbers coming in. The
:11:07. > :11:12.anticipation of the numbers who will come in, and the more important part
:11:13. > :11:16.I find about this is that there is a north /south divide, a class divide
:11:17. > :11:19.between those who have gone to university and those who have not, a
:11:20. > :11:23.wealth divide to in those who advocate more asylum seekers who
:11:24. > :11:27.tend to be in London in the areas like Margaret, which is Islington
:11:28. > :11:31.who are very wealthy, and the poorest people in this country are
:11:32. > :11:35.having to take the largest burden of this, and I find that part
:11:36. > :11:40.unacceptable. Margaret Hodge, that is an interesting point. To save
:11:41. > :11:45.money on housing asylum seekers, they are being put in communities
:11:46. > :11:50.who have less voice, less power, and who may be already have problems of
:11:51. > :11:55.their own, and they don't need any social dislocation, as they would
:11:56. > :11:58.see it. Asylum accommodation used to be provided by local authorities.
:11:59. > :12:02.The coalition Government when they came in chose this is one of the
:12:03. > :12:05.areas where they wanted to have savings, and they thought that
:12:06. > :12:10.economies of scale, having some big contract, would save the money. And
:12:11. > :12:14.I think it was one of those areas where actually it didn't bring
:12:15. > :12:24.value, and I'm not sure it even save the cash. And let me just say why.
:12:25. > :12:31.Eirik present barking -- I represent barking. We have a lot of people
:12:32. > :12:36.coming in. I think a concentration of asylum seekers in one area, and I
:12:37. > :12:39.agree... Are you saying that the numbers that have been put in some
:12:40. > :12:44.areas should not be put in those areas? I agree that there is an
:12:45. > :12:49.overconcentration in Middlesbrough, and I also agree that they tend to
:12:50. > :12:57.go to the poorer areas. But can I just put the other side of this
:12:58. > :13:00.argument? When a group of people arrived as refugees from a
:13:01. > :13:03.particular community, they go to an area, and as their friends and
:13:04. > :13:09.relatives arrive, they will also want to be close to them full up so
:13:10. > :13:13.they build a network, and it is a very complex issue, and what you
:13:14. > :13:20.have to do is provide public servers infrastructure so that the community
:13:21. > :13:23.can accept them and integrate. Stephen Woolfe, what is the Ukip
:13:24. > :13:28.solution? I know you would have fewer people here, but in the
:13:29. > :13:34.interim, do you have a solution as to how you how is people who are
:13:35. > :13:37.already here? The solution has to look at general immigration that
:13:38. > :13:42.comes into this country, because that has an impact on housing and
:13:43. > :13:46.schools, and with that, you then have obligations international
:13:47. > :13:50.obligations to deal with asylum, and when you are looking at housing, the
:13:51. > :13:54.housing situation you have to consider is where are most of these
:13:55. > :14:00.people going to find work that works for them, and a lot of that now is
:14:01. > :14:03.down towards the south and London, and what you have to consider there
:14:04. > :14:09.is where you find the areas that these people can go into. Are you
:14:10. > :14:16.saying, we have got very little time. Why is it that we are not
:14:17. > :14:19.building in the very wealthy areas of Hamstead and Islington and
:14:20. > :14:24.Highgate, why do we not all the tower blocks there? There is plenty
:14:25. > :14:27.of land and capability. But we don't. The decisions are always
:14:28. > :14:32.pushed the North of England and the poorest areas, the places in the
:14:33. > :14:38.north-west where I am a constituency MEP, and I find that utterly unfair.
:14:39. > :14:40.I'm afraid we are utterly out of time, you have left us with a
:14:41. > :14:42.provocative solution there. Well, at the EU level,
:14:43. > :14:45.the refugee issue is not one that can be painted over,
:14:46. > :14:48.in red or any other colour. The European Commission
:14:49. > :14:50.is grappling with how to handle The Dublin Regulation in principle
:14:51. > :14:53.means that the thousands arriving each day on European shores
:14:54. > :14:56.are the problems of Greece and Italy, the countries
:14:57. > :14:58.where they arrive. That hasn't worked, but nor has
:14:59. > :15:16.the ambition to share people around. This is one of Europe's only few
:15:17. > :15:22.growth industries, hundreds of miles of razor wire going up across the
:15:23. > :15:27.continent. The president of the EU council, the Dutch, have made the
:15:28. > :15:32.issue their current priority. The current numbers are not sustainable.
:15:33. > :15:37.We are running out of time. We need a sharp reduction in the number of
:15:38. > :15:44.refugees in the coming 6-8 weeks. The current rules were based on ones
:15:45. > :15:47.agreed in 1990. They state that the first EU country which an asylum
:15:48. > :15:52.seeker arrives in is responsible for them. But there is little incentive
:15:53. > :15:55.for those of rival countries, like Greece and Italy, to cooperate.
:15:56. > :15:59.Better to let the asylum seekers pass swiftly through to their
:16:00. > :16:04.preferred destinations in northern Europe. Britain has an opt out from
:16:05. > :16:09.migration and home affairs matters, but it is opted in the Dublin
:16:10. > :16:13.regulations, because it helps us. It allows us to say that those in
:16:14. > :16:17.Calais for example have no right to claim asylum in the UK. We are very
:16:18. > :16:20.concerned from the noises coming out of the commission about the Dublin
:16:21. > :16:26.agreement. We will want to engage to make sure that any changes protect
:16:27. > :16:29.Britain's interest. Angela Merkel in effect suspended the Dublin rules
:16:30. > :16:33.last year when she told would-be asylum seekers that if they could
:16:34. > :16:36.get to Germany, they would not be sent back to their country of entry.
:16:37. > :16:42.More than 1 million took up the invitation. But the scale of that
:16:43. > :16:45.influx, as well as events in Germany over New Year, mean that many in
:16:46. > :16:52.Germany now want a reduction to those numbers. Today, the president
:16:53. > :16:55.added his voice. At some point, as problematic and tragic as it may be,
:16:56. > :17:00.we will not be able to take in everyone. It is one thing to agree
:17:01. > :17:05.that the system is broken - another to agree what should replace it. But
:17:06. > :17:09.increasingly, countries are going it alone, bringing in their own systems
:17:10. > :17:18.outside the EU. Austria today announced it would cap the number
:17:19. > :17:23.allowed to claim asylum at 70,000 a year -- 37,000 a year, less than
:17:24. > :17:31.half the previous number. But what happens else otherwise? Some kind of
:17:32. > :17:35.unspecified distribution around Europe. Austria cannot accommodate
:17:36. > :17:39.all asylum seekers, announced the Chancellor today. On Austria's
:17:40. > :17:44.southern border, Slovenia says it will also bring in a limit. That
:17:45. > :17:53.will push the problem across its own southern border, to Croatia. And
:17:54. > :17:56.further south still, Macedonia, taking action, and the route to
:17:57. > :18:02.northern Europe is seizing up fast. Also, the Schengen agreement. I
:18:03. > :18:06.think Europe would be much better if we ended the Schengen arrangements,
:18:07. > :18:10.had internal border controls but also countries offering sanctuary to
:18:11. > :18:16.those who have been assessed as refugees. But the European
:18:17. > :18:18.Commission would not abandon Schengen without a fight.
:18:19. > :18:25.Jean-Claude Juncker, the president of the commission, made that clear
:18:26. > :18:28.today. Getting rid of him, he told the parliament in Strasbourg, will
:18:29. > :18:32.hurt the single market. And without a single market, the day will come
:18:33. > :18:36.when we ask, do we really need a single currency and the free
:18:37. > :18:40.movement of workers? In March, EU leaders will meet for a special
:18:41. > :18:42.summit to find a solution. Whatever they decide, it seems they will be
:18:43. > :18:44.ordering more of this. It so happens a lot of policy-makers
:18:45. > :18:49.and business people are holed up this week in the Swiss
:18:50. > :18:53.resort town of Davos for the annual One person among them is Kofi Annan,
:18:54. > :18:57.who used to be secretary general He was also an envoy to Syria
:18:58. > :19:02.in 2012, although didn't get far I spoke to him earlier today
:19:03. > :19:07.about Syria, but first about Europe's response
:19:08. > :19:20.to the refugee crisis. I think it has been difficult for
:19:21. > :19:24.Europe. And it is unfortunate that it is also dividing Europe. We all
:19:25. > :19:31.have a responsibility to our refugees. -- to assist refugees.
:19:32. > :19:35.They have rights. And the countries in the region have done a lot. Some
:19:36. > :19:37.European countries have tried to do better than others, but of course
:19:38. > :19:43.they are coming under tremendous pressure at home. I also believe
:19:44. > :19:50.that the mainstream leaders have not been outspoken. They should have
:19:51. > :19:55.started earlier on explaining to the public what it is all about. Why is
:19:56. > :19:59.it that these refugees are coming and what needed to be done? By not
:20:00. > :20:03.doing so, they allow the extremists and the right-wing parties to take
:20:04. > :20:09.the issue in a completely different direction. And now they are playing
:20:10. > :20:13.catch-up. I don't know what you think of the British approach, which
:20:14. > :20:18.has been to say, we do not want to take people who have landed in
:20:19. > :20:22.Europe, we want to help people back in or around Syria itself - is that
:20:23. > :20:28.a better approach, or is it a more heartless approach? That was the
:20:29. > :20:34.usual approach. When we had the Vietnamese boat people's crises,
:20:35. > :20:42.that was the way it was handled. You scream them on the ground. If the US
:20:43. > :20:46.wanted 20,000, you flew them out. If the UK wanted 5000, you flew them to
:20:47. > :20:50.the UK. It was not a situation of people walking across and coming
:20:51. > :20:55.across the border in the way it has happened in Europe recently. And I
:20:56. > :21:04.think attempts are being made to get back to that effect of, smooth
:21:05. > :21:08.handling of refugee cases. Just to be clear, I am guessing you support
:21:09. > :21:13.the European Commission, which is trying to look again at the
:21:14. > :21:16.so-called Dublin Convention, which says the first country in which they
:21:17. > :21:20.arrive is the one which has to handle them, which really means
:21:21. > :21:24.Greece and Italy have hundreds of thousands of people who they are
:21:25. > :21:30.responsible for. Is that dead, as far as you can see? That is the
:21:31. > :21:35.requirement, that is the law. But there comes a time when an exception
:21:36. > :21:40.has to be made. The situation is such that one cannot leave Greece
:21:41. > :21:47.and Italy alone to bear the brunt. Looking ahead, one decade, three
:21:48. > :21:53.decades, five decades - is this migration issue going to become more
:21:54. > :21:55.and more acute for the world, and do we have what you might call
:21:56. > :22:01.governments arrangements, arrangements of any kind, for
:22:02. > :22:05.handling it as a global issue? The movement of people will continue.
:22:06. > :22:08.And if we are not able to handle the climate crisis properly, we will see
:22:09. > :22:14.more people on the move. But we do not have the laws and the rules to
:22:15. > :22:18.tackle that kind of movement. So there is urgency for the
:22:19. > :22:23.international community to look at the way it handles movements of
:22:24. > :22:31.people, which is really going to be on the increase. Of course, one of
:22:32. > :22:35.the immediate causes of migration is the Syrian civil war. You were an
:22:36. > :22:39.envoy back in 2012. I wonder whether you have got hopes talks which are
:22:40. > :22:44.meant to be starting in Geneva next week? The moment I don't think we
:22:45. > :22:47.even know exactly who will be there. Has some progress being made since
:22:48. > :22:52.you were trying to sort it out those years ago? I am confident that the
:22:53. > :22:58.US and Russia will have effective co-operation. I have confidence in
:22:59. > :23:02.Secretary Kerry and Foreign Minister Lavrov. I think they will work
:23:03. > :23:07.effectively with the other powers. The difficulty will be getting the
:23:08. > :23:10.regional powers to cooperate. I think we have seen the situation in
:23:11. > :23:20.the region become much more complicated. We need to see Iran,
:23:21. > :23:23.Saudi Arabia, Turkey, working effectively with the permanent
:23:24. > :23:27.members of the council. And today we are not there yet. And those who
:23:28. > :23:31.have influence on the fighters on the ground, either on the Syrian
:23:32. > :23:37.government side or on the side of the rebels, have to bring their
:23:38. > :23:42.influence to bear. They have to press them to go to the table. Isis
:23:43. > :23:47.of course is a new factor in Syria. It was not there when you were
:23:48. > :23:54.around in 2012. Do you think it is possible to talk to Isis? A phrase
:23:55. > :23:58.which has been used is a route through to Isis, in terms of
:23:59. > :24:03.communication - is it possible, do you think? I do not see them at the
:24:04. > :24:07.table. I don't think they would be invited, nor would they want to go.
:24:08. > :24:10.On the other hand, you cannot delete them through military means alone.
:24:11. > :24:14.There are other political measures which will have to be taken, and
:24:15. > :24:19.some concessions which will have to be made by governments in the
:24:20. > :24:28.region. And I think we need to work with the Iraqi government to make
:24:29. > :24:35.sure that they treat all their constituents, citizens,
:24:36. > :24:41.evenhandedly. Today, the Sunnis feel that they are not fairly treated and
:24:42. > :24:48.there is a tendency that quite a lot of them have sympathy, or
:24:49. > :24:52.originally, they did have some pretty for Isis. We need to pull
:24:53. > :24:55.them away from that support. I wonder what you make of the fate of
:24:56. > :24:58.humankind at the moment. There have been people who have been very
:24:59. > :25:03.optimistic, who say the world is becoming less violent and more
:25:04. > :25:08.empathetic. We understand our fellow human beings better than we did in
:25:09. > :25:12.medieval times, or 2000 years ago. When you look at that conflict, what
:25:13. > :25:17.conclusion do you draw about our species and its capacity for
:25:18. > :25:20.cruelty? I have been appalled by some of the violence and brutality
:25:21. > :25:27.we have seen in the Syrian situation. But I don't think it is
:25:28. > :25:33.all hopeless. We should not forget the 30 year war in Europe. It took
:25:34. > :25:40.the European countries to realise that it was a senseless war, when
:25:41. > :25:47.nobody wins, and they came together and had their moment at the peace of
:25:48. > :25:51.Westphalia. And I hope that will also happen in Syria. People will
:25:52. > :25:55.wake up. The governments have to understand, this is a common danger,
:25:56. > :25:59.it is engulfing us all. The brutality is not now limited to the
:26:00. > :26:08.region, it is spreading around the world. So it is difficult, it is
:26:09. > :26:13.tough for courage is not hopeless. It is not hopeless. The world has
:26:14. > :26:17.seen this before, and terrorists have risen up time and again but
:26:18. > :26:20.they have always been defeated. Kofi Annan, thank you so much.
:26:21. > :26:23.American scientists have discovered another planet in our solar system -
:26:24. > :26:29.Let's not get into the debate about Pluto and its underclass
:26:30. > :26:33.The thing about the putative new planet is that it's currently
:26:34. > :26:36.Its existence has been imputed by scientists based
:26:37. > :26:41.But it is just the latest example of the rapid pace of advance
:26:42. > :26:43.in space science, and the interest it generates.
:26:44. > :26:50.To be followed soon, possibly, by more space exploration.
:26:51. > :26:54.Apollo put humans on the moon, hundreds of thousands of miles away.
:26:55. > :27:03.It inspired a generation of scientists and engineers.
:27:04. > :27:08.Because of what you have done, the heavens have become a part of man's
:27:09. > :27:09.world. Then as the Cold War ended,
:27:10. > :27:13.so did much of the ambition And since, man has retreated
:27:14. > :27:18.to a less stellar, low earth orbit. A mere few hundred kilometres
:27:19. > :27:20.from earth. But are we in a new era
:27:21. > :27:34.of deep space exploration? By the mid-2030s, I believe we can
:27:35. > :27:38.send humour humans to orbit Mars and return safely to Earth. Landing on
:27:39. > :27:41.Mars will follow. And I expect to be around to see it.
:27:42. > :27:44.Those were the words, but it took until just before
:27:45. > :27:46.Christmas for Congress to cough up some money -
:27:47. > :27:50.increasing Nasa funding to its highest level
:27:51. > :27:56.But it came with a note to up the ambition -
:27:57. > :28:02.So now big plans to capture an asteroid and land humans on Mars
:28:03. > :28:08.Joining me now is Dr Ellen Stofan, the chief scientist at Nasa.
:28:09. > :28:10.She's responsible for planning all of the agency's scientific
:28:11. > :28:23.Very nice to have you with us. Let's start with the ninth planet. Do you
:28:24. > :28:26.believe it exists? I think it is an intriguing theory. I have glanced at
:28:27. > :28:31.the paper. They are looking at the orbits of very distant object in our
:28:32. > :28:36.solar system, out in the belt where Pluto is. But even more distant than
:28:37. > :28:40.Pluto is a bunch of objects which have ordered orbits. So they have
:28:41. > :28:44.come up with an explosion which says there could be a super Earth sized
:28:45. > :28:49.planet, between the size of Earth and Neptune, very, very far out,
:28:50. > :28:53.such that its orbit around the sun would take almost 20,000 years. So,
:28:54. > :28:58.is it there? Is it not? Are there other expert nations? What is
:28:59. > :29:03.amazing is that we might have missed one this big in our own system? It
:29:04. > :29:07.is, but on the other hand, if it has this huge orbit and you have to be
:29:08. > :29:10.looking at the right place at the right time... The fact that we have
:29:11. > :29:14.not seen it makes me a bit sceptical. We have identified lots
:29:15. > :29:20.of planet in this category of Supermac Earths, over 5000 planet
:29:21. > :29:24.candidates. The fact that we do not have a planet in that size class
:29:25. > :29:30.between Earth and Neptune makes us think, maybe we are missing one. And
:29:31. > :29:35.maybe they have predicted it. What it does show is that it is quite an
:29:36. > :29:38.exciting time. It is not like we have discovered all there is to
:29:39. > :29:43.discover. There is so much coming in. We have the landing on the
:29:44. > :29:48.comet. It is endless. When I speak to school kids, I say, you need to
:29:49. > :29:52.major in science, technology, engineering and maths. Over the next
:29:53. > :29:55.20 years, as we start exploring these planets around other stars
:29:56. > :30:00.which we have been discovering with the the space telescope, we start
:30:01. > :30:03.allergy analysing their atmospheres, with our James Webster the scope,
:30:04. > :30:09.and there will be a field of trying to understand whether these planets
:30:10. > :30:15.around other stars are potentially habitable. You are trying to make
:30:16. > :30:18.them interested in science, of course. You will give them pictures
:30:19. > :30:23.of people landing on the moon and the like. But actually a lot of the
:30:24. > :30:26.science is complicated mathematics, really, to work out that there is
:30:27. > :30:32.another planet that we did not know about! But I think it is fun when
:30:33. > :30:35.you can talk to kids and say, you think of maths as being boring and
:30:36. > :30:40.hard, but think of it as a tool which you can use to land on a
:30:41. > :30:43.distant planet, to image a planet around another star. And then they
:30:44. > :30:48.might think it is worth doing their homework. Landing on Mars would be a
:30:49. > :30:54.big inspiration, which would be very exciting. Do you think the race to
:30:55. > :30:55.get on Mars will be a race, or will it be a collaboration, like the
:30:56. > :31:08.International Space Station? I think it is going to be a
:31:09. > :31:15.collaboration. The space station is a good example. When we look at
:31:16. > :31:18.Mars, we have 16 agencies around the world collaborating on something
:31:19. > :31:24.called the global exploration road map, looking at how we get humans
:31:25. > :31:31.beyond low Earth orbit. And whose flag is going to be planted on Mars
:31:32. > :31:36.first? The UN flag? Were the Americans say, we are paying most,
:31:37. > :31:39.we want our flag? I think there will be lots of flags planted, but I
:31:40. > :31:47.think it will be an international crew that gets there. It is also
:31:48. > :31:51.public/private. Private companies want to go, so it is a whole new way
:31:52. > :31:54.of collaborating and moving humans outwards into the solar system.
:31:55. > :31:57.Thank you very much for coming and talking to us.
:31:58. > :32:00.We are approaching the 35th anniversary of a landmark event
:32:01. > :32:02.in British political history - the Limehouse Declaration.
:32:03. > :32:05.Well, it seemed like a landmark at the time.
:32:06. > :32:07.What it was was a statement of Social Democratic values
:32:08. > :32:10.and a first step to the creation of the Social Democratic
:32:11. > :32:15.Now, we don't normally consider 35th anniversaries to be among the big
:32:16. > :32:23.ones, but as the SDP was a party created by a gang of four leading
:32:24. > :32:25.Labour politicians, fed up with the leftward drift
:32:26. > :32:28.of their party, it seems like an apt time to remember it.
:32:29. > :32:35.Lewis Goodall has been talking to those who were there.
:32:36. > :32:45.Where there is despair, may we bring hope.
:32:46. > :32:47.The Labour Party establishment was in
:32:48. > :32:56.Deselection, a left-wing leader and rows over unilateral nuclear
:32:57. > :33:04.A great deal of bullying of members of Parliament,
:33:05. > :33:11.the militant tendency, but others of that kind,
:33:12. > :33:19.At that conference, at that year, it was noted, the mood
:33:20. > :33:29.and the style and the hostility, it was ugly by any standards.
:33:30. > :33:31.By the party conference of 1981, the left-wing
:33:32. > :33:36.Michael Foot had won a surprise victory for the leadership.
:33:37. > :33:39.At Labour's special conference at Wembley today,
:33:40. > :33:43.historic decisions and a major surprise.
:33:44. > :33:45.For the Labour right, led by the gang of four,
:33:46. > :33:48.the fight had become too much to bear.
:33:49. > :33:50.In the party structure, one of the main ones
:33:51. > :33:57.In effect what it did was to put each MP at
:33:58. > :33:59.the risk of their own general management committee.
:34:00. > :34:01.It was not anything outside, it was not
:34:02. > :34:04.It was certainly not the constituents.
:34:05. > :34:06.Much damage has been done to the cause of the aquatic
:34:07. > :34:17.Roy Hattersley urged the gang of four to stay and fight.
:34:18. > :34:19."Save the Labour Party" and "leave the Labour Party" are mutually
:34:20. > :34:24.The special conference was awful because there was a great deal
:34:25. > :34:25.of vindictiveness from people who were changing
:34:26. > :34:33.I went out into the night pouring with rain, could not find my car
:34:34. > :34:37.Walking around wet and unhappy, and I had one thought,
:34:38. > :34:45.which is, if the ship sinks, I will go down with it.
:34:46. > :34:47.It is necessary every now and then within every democratic political
:34:48. > :34:51.system for some people to say, up with this I will not put.
:34:52. > :34:52.There are certain issues which are bigger than
:34:53. > :34:59.They are what is right for the country.
:35:00. > :35:01.It was agonising, like leaving one's family or divorcing one's loved
:35:02. > :35:07.And there was a lot of emotional pull in the whole
:35:08. > :35:16.I had a letter from one person who wrote to me afterwards
:35:17. > :35:22.saying, I am very sorry, Bill, it now means the end of our old,
:35:23. > :35:24.practical relationship, but I hope we will not
:35:25. > :35:33.forget our feelings towards each other.
:35:34. > :35:36.It is very easy to weep for that, really.
:35:37. > :35:38.But once you have made your mind up, it all becomes
:35:39. > :35:42.It becomes challenging, exciting, a test of your strength
:35:43. > :35:50.On January 25th 1981, the press were called
:35:51. > :36:01.There was a sense of liberation, and I think we all knew
:36:02. > :36:07.We weren't slaves to Labour Party policy.
:36:08. > :36:18.And I think that is what the SDP did.
:36:19. > :36:20.Before long, the SDP was soaring high, polling over 50%
:36:21. > :36:29.They scored a spectacular by-election win.
:36:30. > :36:40.Roy Jenkins noted in his diary that he thought he might at last
:36:41. > :36:45.become Prime Minister and break the mould of British politics.
:36:46. > :36:47.There comes a time when you cannot...
:36:48. > :36:52.Your life would be a living hypocrisy.
:36:53. > :36:54.That is Mr Healey and Mr Hattersley, when you advocate
:36:55. > :36:56.policies, major policies, you don't believe it.
:36:57. > :36:58.Two words brought it all to a shuddering end,
:36:59. > :37:03.and that was called the Falkland Islands.
:37:04. > :37:05.The Falklands War gave Margaret Thatcher
:37:06. > :37:10.After all the hype and the hope, the 1983 election
:37:11. > :37:20.Although the SDP Liberal alliance took 25% of the vote,
:37:21. > :37:24.nearly overtaking Labour, the SDP took a paltry six seats.
:37:25. > :37:28.When you look at the electoral system,
:37:29. > :37:33.first-past-the-post makes it very, very difficult for a party
:37:34. > :37:35.to create, start and in one fell swoop
:37:36. > :37:47.We had to build it up and we had to build it up by taking Labour
:37:48. > :37:49.votes and we had to smash into Labour in the '83
:37:50. > :37:51.election because they deserved to be smashed into.
:37:52. > :38:00.And the failure to do that was namby-pambyism, really.
:38:01. > :38:07.It had two effects - one was to alienate floating voters
:38:08. > :38:09.who were worried about the Labour Party being
:38:10. > :38:13.It proved it because these people have left, they split
:38:14. > :38:17.And they had a general debilitating effect on the party in general,
:38:18. > :38:20.the feeling that we had lost good comrades.
:38:21. > :38:22.There is no doubt at all that it had an effect.
:38:23. > :38:24.They have more responsibility for Mrs Thatcher
:38:25. > :38:35.For the next five years, as Labour recovered
:38:36. > :38:37.and moved rightwards, the party band to decline before
:38:38. > :38:39.eventually merging with the Liberals.
:38:40. > :38:43.Relationships among some of the gang of four broke
:38:44. > :38:48.And now, 35 years on, for these political veterans
:38:49. > :38:50.who have seen it all before, could it, should
:38:51. > :38:55.I think the situation now is worse than the
:38:56. > :39:01.I think our chances of getting back are still there and we will get
:39:02. > :39:05.I think the leader is less susceptible to reason than Michael
:39:06. > :39:08.Foot was, who was a sensible, mature politician, although from the left.
:39:09. > :39:11.I think the trade unions are in a different position
:39:12. > :39:17.But someone has got to carry on the fight, and must do it
:39:18. > :39:21.The lesson of the gang of four - you don't win by leaving,
:39:22. > :39:29.Now, it is a different story because Jeremy
:39:30. > :39:37.I think he is like a Michael Foot son, a kind of idealist
:39:38. > :39:39.who is being manoeuvred and to some extent manipulated by exactly
:39:40. > :39:50.But they are now not visible in the same way.
:39:51. > :39:57.You know under fixed parliaments, there is not
:39:58. > :40:00.So I would not give a thought to a new party
:40:01. > :40:07.It may have been buried, but I think it will
:40:08. > :40:17.I think the one way out of the mess we are in at the moment is the SDP
:40:18. > :40:19.concept struggling back and becoming a basis on which eventually,
:40:20. > :40:32.hopefully, there can be a new party of the centre-left.
:40:33. > :40:40.Seems like yesterday! The best bit was Bill Rogers in the Crosby
:40:41. > :40:42.by-election forgetting where he was. But today is World Penguin Awareness
:40:43. > :40:46.Day, if you're to believe the internet and nearly
:40:47. > :40:48.all the newspapers. Curiously, no-one seems to know
:40:49. > :40:51.who decided this day should be celebrated or even when exactly it
:40:52. > :40:53.first started being observed, but then I suppose you could say
:40:54. > :40:56.the same thing about Christmas. Anyway, why would you want to argue
:40:57. > :40:59.when we can leave you with one MUSIC: Do It Again
:41:00. > :41:07.by the Beach Boys.