:00:00. > :00:09.It's been a long time coming - nine years since he died -
:00:10. > :00:12.but at last, the full story of the death of Alexander Litvinenko,
:00:13. > :00:22.and the probable involvement of Vladamir Putin.
:00:23. > :00:32.The FSB operation to kill Mr Litvinenko was probably approved by
:00:33. > :00:35.Mr Khrushchev, who was the then head of the FSB, and also by President
:00:36. > :00:39.Vladimir Putin. The basic story is known -
:00:40. > :00:42.but the details are remarkable, as are the implications,
:00:43. > :00:46.we'll be exploring those. Also tonight, a mosquito borne
:00:47. > :00:49.disease that is affecting thousands It is called Zika and we will hear
:00:50. > :00:58.how dangerous it is. As a draft report into
:00:59. > :01:00.Jimmy Savile's crimes at the BBC is leaked,
:01:01. > :01:16.we ask how he got away with it He fooled Margaret Thatcher and he
:01:17. > :01:18.fooled Prince Charles and his wife, so it is not surprising that he
:01:19. > :01:21.fooled the BBC, including me. And from the BBC, to Boston,
:01:22. > :01:24.a new film about the paedophile priest scandal in
:01:25. > :01:25.the Catholic church. We've got to show people that nobody
:01:26. > :01:29.can get away with this, not a priest or a cardinal
:01:30. > :01:37.or a freaking Pope. the product of "the elegant sense
:01:38. > :01:46.of humour of the British". Somehow, I doubt that
:01:47. > :01:53.Judge Robert Owen who wrote The Russian spokesman also said it
:01:54. > :01:56.would poison relations with Britain and also what didn't,
:01:57. > :02:05.based on evidence heard in public was probably approved
:02:06. > :02:33.by President Putin himself. Who murdered the Russian dissident
:02:34. > :02:42.Alexander Litvinenko and why? Who murdered the Russian dissident
:02:43. > :02:51.a dangerous attack on British streets. 200 locations across London
:02:52. > :03:00.were contaminated with radioactive polonium, including stations and
:03:01. > :03:03.trains. When it comes to Russia's involve blood, the conclusions are
:03:04. > :03:10.stark, there is a strong probability that the plot to assassinate
:03:11. > :03:13.Litvinenko was directed by the FSB, Russia's intelligence service and it
:03:14. > :03:19.is probable that it was approved by none other than the Russian
:03:20. > :03:26.president Vladimir Putin himself. It was a relief, because you seek
:03:27. > :03:32.approval but you have tried to say all these years. I can't say it was
:03:33. > :03:37.not taken serious, but it was every time, "We have no evidence, we have
:03:38. > :03:41.no proof", but after everything was said in court, especially today, are
:03:42. > :03:46.the report was released, we can talk about for what happened on a
:03:47. > :03:54.different level. The public inquiry concluded that Dmitry Kovtun and
:03:55. > :03:59.Andrei Lugovoi first try to kill him in 2006 after a business meeting in
:04:00. > :04:04.Mayfair. -- tried. That attempt failed, but when they met him at the
:04:05. > :04:07.Millennium hotel down the road, they slipped deadly polonium into his cup
:04:08. > :04:20.of tea and that was a death sentence. I am sure that Andrei
:04:21. > :04:28.Lugovoi and Dmitry Kovtun are placed the polonium into the teapot and did
:04:29. > :04:35.so with the intention of poisoning Mr Litvinenko. The inquiry report
:04:36. > :04:40.states that the killers were sent by Russia's intelligence service, the
:04:41. > :04:50.FSB, and were acting under its direction. I have further concluded
:04:51. > :05:02.that the FSB operation to kill Mr Litvinenko was probably approved by
:05:03. > :05:10.the then head of the FSB and also by President Madame Putin. -- president
:05:11. > :05:13.Vladimir Putin. For serious charge against a serving head of state is
:05:14. > :05:24.hard to imagine. -- a more serious charge. Alexander Litvinenko sought
:05:25. > :05:27.asylum in the UK. Russian friend described how the former FSB agent
:05:28. > :05:33.tried to use his old knowledge about Russian organised crime to forge a
:05:34. > :05:42.new career. He ended up investigating the top leadership of
:05:43. > :05:45.Russia, Vladimir Putin personally coming connection to organised
:05:46. > :05:52.crime, on behalf the British and Spanish secret services. We can
:05:53. > :05:56.reveal some details late into this intelligence, and it is very clear
:05:57. > :06:07.that Alexander Litvinenko's investigations were proving very
:06:08. > :06:12.dangerous indeed. In November 2006 when he was dying in London, he was
:06:13. > :06:17.supposed to be in Spain, helping the Spanish authorities investigate this
:06:18. > :06:20.Russian Mafia boss. His work with Spanish intelligence, which is
:06:21. > :06:26.confirmed by today's report, was clearly very dangerous, and we
:06:27. > :06:30.understand this was part of the secret intelligence that underpins
:06:31. > :06:32.the report's conclusions. Very well-placed source has told
:06:33. > :06:38.Newsnight that he had video taped evidence against him, that Spanish
:06:39. > :06:44.prosecutors wanted to use. TRANSLATION: We needed Litvinenko
:06:45. > :06:50.because he knew them and because he had fought against them and he had
:06:51. > :06:57.investigated them, and he had investigated him in Russia.
:06:58. > :07:00.Newsnight obtained this confidential document in Spain, it includes a
:07:01. > :07:07.transcript to the police interview with former Russian politician and a
:07:08. > :07:11.Mafia suspect himself. This document reveals how the Spanish, with
:07:12. > :07:16.Litvinenko's help, were closing in on Russian organised crime, and how
:07:17. > :07:21.they were chasing alleged links to the Mafia write to the door of
:07:22. > :07:32.Vladimir Putin, it reads like a spy drama, but these are the real words.
:07:33. > :07:40.Why do you want to kill me? There is one, I would be quite happy if I was
:07:41. > :07:51.not here. Who else you said three? The finisher. The killer? He has a
:07:52. > :07:54.team of killers. Russia is run by people from the KGB of Saint
:07:55. > :08:03.Petersburg. You have not said anything about Vladimir Putin out of
:08:04. > :08:12.caution? You do not say anything to avoid problems? Yes, possibly. I can
:08:13. > :08:16.do that when Vladimir Putin is no longer president. The man they
:08:17. > :08:21.interviewed died in a mysterious car crash in France shortly after he
:08:22. > :08:26.spoke to Spanish police. But other more personal attacks against
:08:27. > :08:29.Vladimir Putin made him a more immediate target for assassination,
:08:30. > :08:33.I understand, but I have spoken to a source with close knowledge of
:08:34. > :08:36.inside thinking at MI6 and he tells me that Litvinenko was murdered on
:08:37. > :08:40.the orders of the Russian state and I'm told that Vladimir Putin must
:08:41. > :08:50.have known because he crossed two distinct red lines. The smouldering
:08:51. > :08:56.remains of 64 apartments, torn to shreds by a massive explosion. This
:08:57. > :08:59.was the first, he alleged that Vladimir Putin had authorised the
:09:00. > :09:03.secret operation to blow up apartment buildings in Moscow, so he
:09:04. > :09:08.could blame Chechen terrorists and justify a new war. Russia has always
:09:09. > :09:16.denied this, but Vladimir Putin was incensed. And this was the second, a
:09:17. > :09:21.bizarre film of the president kissing a boy publicly, leading
:09:22. > :09:26.Litvinenko to make wild allegations that he was a paedophile. After the
:09:27. > :09:31.report's publication today there were angry denials by a Russian
:09:32. > :09:36.ambassador to London. The length of time that it took to close this case
:09:37. > :09:42.in this way leads us to believe that it is a whitewash of the British
:09:43. > :09:45.special services incompetence. What happened was absolutely appalling
:09:46. > :09:50.and this report confirms what we have always believed, that what is
:09:51. > :09:53.the last Labour government believed at the time of this dreadful murder,
:09:54. > :09:58.that it was state-sponsored action, and that is why the last government
:09:59. > :10:01.took the action, expelling Russian diplomats, issuing arrest warrants
:10:02. > :10:06.and refusing to cooperate with Russian intelligence agencies, and
:10:07. > :10:11.those measures continue. What we've added today, rightly, further asset
:10:12. > :10:16.freezes, writing to the prosecuting authorities to see what more can be
:10:17. > :10:21.done. Today's report does not confirm the motive for murder, that
:10:22. > :10:25.is properly covered by secret intelligence and we have had to rely
:10:26. > :10:27.on our own sources for that. In Russia, the fact that one of the
:10:28. > :10:33.killers has been given a presidential medal tells you all you
:10:34. > :10:38.need to know. That a serving head of state has just been implicated in
:10:39. > :10:43.conspiracy to murder. Litvinenko's coughing has not been ignored. --
:10:44. > :10:46.coffin. This story is huge news here,
:10:47. > :10:49.but has also been making waves around the world, and obviously has
:10:50. > :10:52.implications for the continent of Europe, and the place
:10:53. > :10:54.of Russia in it. In a moment we'll debate
:10:55. > :10:56.some of those issues with George Galloway,
:10:57. > :10:59.leader of the Respect Party. And Alex Goldfarb, one
:11:00. > :11:02.of Mr Litvinenko's closest friends but first, let's go
:11:03. > :11:04.to Warsaw and the former Polish foreign minister
:11:05. > :11:22.Radek Sikorski. You are much closer to Russia and
:11:23. > :11:26.more aware of Vladimir Putin, are you surprised that he might be
:11:27. > :11:32.personally involved in something like this, as opposed to his
:11:33. > :11:36.underlings just getting on with it? In Poland people are not that
:11:37. > :11:40.surprised, we follow events in Russia very closely, and remember
:11:41. > :11:47.this is not the first time, there was also the murdering Qatar of the
:11:48. > :11:53.former president of Chechnya, and the murderers there were caught, as
:11:54. > :11:59.well. It is disturbing and I hope you understand why we feel so
:12:00. > :12:04.uncomfortable in such a neighbourhood and why we have been
:12:05. > :12:10.so insistent on strengthening our major security in our region. It is
:12:11. > :12:15.an awkward diplomatic problem for Britain as to how to respond to
:12:16. > :12:19.this. There is not much ammunition left in terms of sanctions against
:12:20. > :12:25.Russia, and we're also trying to serve other objectives which require
:12:26. > :12:28.us have a relationship with Russia. Theresa May said some tough words,
:12:29. > :12:34.what you make of the action that has been proposed on the British side?
:12:35. > :12:39.I'm not sure on what she said, but it is difficult, yes. We are dealing
:12:40. > :12:43.with murderous regimes around the world all the time, but in this case
:12:44. > :12:49.it is different. The murder was perpetrated abroad. This was an act
:12:50. > :12:52.of contempt. An act of contempt for Britain, and also a mistake by the
:12:53. > :12:57.murderous, because I believe that in any other country, with the
:12:58. > :13:02.exception of the United States or France, they probably would have got
:13:03. > :13:09.away with it. It was the British expertise in handling nuclear
:13:10. > :13:15.material that allowed you to identify the murderers. But yes,
:13:16. > :13:20.international implications are huge, because the Litvinenko case goes
:13:21. > :13:25.back to the origins and the legitimacy of the current
:13:26. > :13:33.authorities in Russia. This is a major nation state with nuclear
:13:34. > :13:38.weapons, which is in deep economic crisis, Vladimir Putin is a man who
:13:39. > :13:43.is determined to hold on to power and with this kind of background,
:13:44. > :13:50.you can understand why he fears losing a grip on power. What do you
:13:51. > :13:56.mean by that? Why does he fear losing their grip on power with his
:13:57. > :14:02.background? -- the grip. If your report is correct, and the British
:14:03. > :14:07.judges's conclusion is correct, and there is a criminal case to answer,
:14:08. > :14:13.then of course you are much more reluctant to give up power. Because
:14:14. > :14:15.he cannot leave the country? For fear of extradition to the UK, is
:14:16. > :14:28.that the suggestion? I don't know what the UK is going to
:14:29. > :14:33.do about it, but yes. This report means that you are tempted to use
:14:34. > :14:41.extreme measures to stay in power. Do you think any European Union
:14:42. > :14:45.leader, having looked at this, can go now and shake hands with
:14:46. > :14:53.President Putin in a way which is normal at diplomatic functions? I
:14:54. > :15:00.think there will be fewer takers of these photo opportunities. And I
:15:01. > :15:08.think Russia's return to the G8, for example, is probably off the table.
:15:09. > :15:15.And yes, European leaders will have learnt of the nature of power. It
:15:16. > :15:20.means that somewhere inside the Russian security establishment, that
:15:21. > :15:29.there is a cell of what the Russians themselves used to call wet affairs.
:15:30. > :15:34.It existed under czarist Russia, it existed under the Bolsheviks, and
:15:35. > :15:37.now, disturbingly, it exists today. Thank you very much.
:15:38. > :15:39.Here with me, George Galloway, leader of the Respect Party -
:15:40. > :15:43.and presenter of the show Sputnik on the TV channel Russia Today -
:15:44. > :15:44.which is funded by the Russian Government -
:15:45. > :15:47.and Alex Goldfarb, a good friend of Alexander Litvinenko,
:15:48. > :15:50.who was with him at his death and has worked closely
:15:51. > :16:01.Good evening to you both. Alex, do you accept at least that the
:16:02. > :16:11.evidence on Putin per se was entirely substantial, it was the
:16:12. > :16:16.weakest part of the report? Well, the terms used by Robert probably
:16:17. > :16:19.relates to the civil litigation standard of proof, which means more
:16:20. > :16:27.likely than not, as opposed to any, I am sure, which means, beyond
:16:28. > :16:30.reasonable doubt. Yes, it is circumstantial, but if for example
:16:31. > :16:37.Marina sued Mr Putin for damages, she would have won. In a UK court,
:16:38. > :16:41.could have won. George Galloway, you have been giving Putin the benefit
:16:42. > :16:45.of doubt on lots of things, you have called him man of the year, and
:16:46. > :16:48.described him as a good thing in previous broadcasts - what is your
:16:49. > :16:57.reaction to this report and this evidence? You are a presenter on a
:16:58. > :17:02.state broadcaster, too, so let's not doubt each other's integrity because
:17:03. > :17:07.of where we work. Carlsberg is probably the best lager in the
:17:08. > :17:12.world. But perhaps not. This tragedy, of this foul murder, has
:17:13. > :17:19.been followed by another Whitehall farce. This is the Hutton inquiry
:17:20. > :17:25.all over again. Secret evidence, closed sessions. You said at the top
:17:26. > :17:28.of the show that the. But it isn't, because large sections of this
:17:29. > :17:33.process were closed to the public and to the media. You not accept the
:17:34. > :17:39.conclusions? I don't, I certainly don't. Because I no longer believe,
:17:40. > :17:42.and neither do many people in Britain, automatically, what the
:17:43. > :17:47.security services say. Do you accept the two culprits did it, that they
:17:48. > :17:52.are the people who put the plutonium in his teeth? I know plutonium to
:17:53. > :18:01.ten. I was at Yasir Arafat's bedside in France when he died from that
:18:02. > :18:08.substance is. So I know how foul a murder this was. But this process
:18:09. > :18:11.has been so riddled with imperfection that it cannot be
:18:12. > :18:17.relied on. Are you not sure that it was those of two who did it? I think
:18:18. > :18:22.they are prime suspects, but we have gone much further. And you have gone
:18:23. > :18:28.even further in this show than Owen, the judge, did. You are basically
:18:29. > :18:34.arranging a show trial here of the president of a country with which we
:18:35. > :18:40.have to do business. Apparently careless of what the implications of
:18:41. > :18:45.it would be. Alex Goldfarb, obviously, there is a deeply
:18:46. > :18:49.sceptical thread of watched George Galloway is saying, which will not
:18:50. > :18:53.be untypical of what is being said in Russia. Or in Britain. What is
:18:54. > :18:59.the most convincing thing you can say to persuade George Galloway? To
:19:00. > :19:02.begin with, people in Russia are brainwashed by the state-controlled
:19:03. > :19:10.media so it does not matter what they think. What is important here
:19:11. > :19:19.is that the evidence against the two suspects are on the website for
:19:20. > :19:23.everybody to see, and it has been proven beyond reasonable doubt. I
:19:24. > :19:25.challenge anybody to look at the evidence and say they are not
:19:26. > :19:34.guilty. The argument was that nobody in his white mound, -- mind, in the
:19:35. > :19:41.Russian power structure would dare to authorise an operation like this
:19:42. > :19:45.without covering his kind. Because Mr Putin personally knew Litvinenko,
:19:46. > :19:51.and he was personally involved and no bureaucrat would dare to do this.
:19:52. > :19:55.George Galloway, with this amount of evidence, if it existed against the
:19:56. > :19:58.British Government, of killing an opponent in a foreign country, would
:19:59. > :20:02.you be so sceptical of the evidence, do you think? Well, we have been
:20:03. > :20:07.through Iraq, we have been through the death of Dr David Kelly, the
:20:08. > :20:11.evidence for which is locked up for 70 years. So we are all sceptical.
:20:12. > :20:16.You are not, evidently, but large tracts of the British public no
:20:17. > :20:21.longer believe what Secret servicemen tell Richard Watson for
:20:22. > :20:26.Newsnight. That is not enough to convince people of such a serious
:20:27. > :20:31.charge as this. The truth is surely this, that spies and their
:20:32. > :20:37.associates often end up dead. We can be sceptical and weak can be super
:20:38. > :20:41.sceptical and we can end up as conspiracy theorists. But you have
:20:42. > :20:46.not sounded at all sceptical. You have bought this book, line and
:20:47. > :20:53.sinker. Alex, lots of countries kill people in nonjudicial ways. Why
:20:54. > :20:57.would Europe or Britain be right to make so much of this killing
:20:58. > :21:01.compared to other killings in other countries which perhaps we do not
:21:02. > :21:08.make any fuss over? As far as I am concerned, he was my friend, and
:21:09. > :21:12.this specific killing, which was perpetrated here using radioactive
:21:13. > :21:22.weapon, and there are countries and there are countries. When people in
:21:23. > :21:28.the United States for example kill terrorists with drones, it is one
:21:29. > :21:33.situation. When Russians kill their dissidents in London, it is another
:21:34. > :21:38.situation. Comparing a democracy with a dictatorship is not fair. And
:21:39. > :21:41.what exactly would you like the British to do at this point? What is
:21:42. > :21:46.the specific thing, what is the sanction? We obviously cannot get
:21:47. > :21:52.these guys here to put them in jail. I think there is a secondary thing
:21:53. > :21:56.-- it is a secondary thing, what the British think would do in this
:21:57. > :21:59.situation. What is important is that Mr Putin has been found guilty in
:22:00. > :22:03.the court of public opinion. And this is what will stay, and this
:22:04. > :22:09.will be a major hallmark of Mr Putin. You say the job is done, in a
:22:10. > :22:14.way. In a way. It is history now, it is going to be come history and Mr
:22:15. > :22:17.Putin will be judged by the downing of the plane, the invasion of
:22:18. > :22:22.Ukraine and the murder of Mr Litvinenko. That is the three major
:22:23. > :22:26.things of his time. Putin's reputation is in the dirt, isn't it,
:22:27. > :22:32.George Galloway? Well, you have certainly done your best to put it
:22:33. > :22:38.there. But we need Putin, who is by the way the most popular politician
:22:39. > :22:44.on the planet, with public opinion ratings of 80%. Like Stalin. Russia
:22:45. > :22:47.was very popular in the West when a drunkard who was handing over
:22:48. > :22:52.Russia's wealth to the oligarchs was in power. It is also popular now
:22:53. > :22:56.that Russia has a strong president which is trying to restore some of
:22:57. > :22:59.the lost prestige. But we need Russia. We need it to fight a much
:23:00. > :23:04.bigger threat, which is the threat of Islamist extremism in Syria and
:23:05. > :23:09.elsewhere. We need Russia for the Iranian file, we need Russia for all
:23:10. > :23:15.kinds of things. And we must not allow our public interest to be
:23:16. > :23:18.sacrificed to the Cold War agenda of Alex Goldfarb. Thank you both very
:23:19. > :23:21.much. In Brazil and parts
:23:22. > :23:24.of South America, a very nasty outbreak has occurred of a viral
:23:25. > :23:27.disease called Zika. The disease is spread by mosquitoes
:23:28. > :23:29.and its biggest danger Babies born of mothers who've
:23:30. > :23:37.been infected show signs of microcephaly - an abnormally
:23:38. > :23:40.small head which can cause intellectual disability
:23:41. > :23:42.and developmental delays. There have been nearly
:23:43. > :23:45.4,000 of those cases Joining me now, Lara Rodrigues,
:23:46. > :23:50.professor of Infectious Disease Epidemiology at the London School
:23:51. > :23:53.of Tropical Disease, who has just returned
:23:54. > :23:56.from Pernambuco State in Brazil, where she has been
:23:57. > :24:10.studying the Zika virus. This is not a new virus? No, it has
:24:11. > :24:15.been around since 1947 but it has stayed very quietly in the ground.
:24:16. > :24:19.And then something happened about 10-15 years ago and it started
:24:20. > :24:26.moving. It has gone to other countries in Africa, it went to
:24:27. > :24:30.Pakistan, India, Southeast Asia, went to the Pacific Islands, Easter
:24:31. > :24:35.Island, and now it is in Latin America. The numbers seem shocking
:24:36. > :24:43.in Latin America at the moment. There has been two outbreaks where a
:24:44. > :24:50.large proportion of the population got a Zika, but in small countries,
:24:51. > :24:55.in Polynesia. Brazil is the first country with a large population
:24:56. > :24:58.which has had an outbreak. Tell us about the symptoms. Not everybody
:24:59. > :25:04.who gets it has a bad reaction? The first thing is, out of five people
:25:05. > :25:08.who get infection, only one will have any clinical symptoms. It is a
:25:09. > :25:13.very silent disease. Those who get ill, they have a rash, very small
:25:14. > :25:18.fever, it is very, it, and the eyes get very red. And tiredness. These
:25:19. > :25:22.are essentially the symptoms. Very mild. Not serious. So the serious
:25:23. > :25:28.part is around pregnant women? Exactly. Pregnant women get it and
:25:29. > :25:36.they can transmit it to the foetus. And then, the earlier it is, the
:25:37. > :25:40.virus likes the brain, so they go to the brain and they destroy
:25:41. > :25:43.structures of the brain. So, as the baby grows, then complete parts of
:25:44. > :25:47.the brain do not develop at all. So the head is small because there are
:25:48. > :25:54.bits missing in the brain. It is the brain that is small. And the head is
:25:55. > :25:59.a small as a result of that. I am this is where it gets quite scary.
:26:00. > :26:06.Colombia is telling people, wait for the mosquito season to finish. That
:26:07. > :26:13.is a very big implication. Yes. And we are facing in Brazil a big travel
:26:14. > :26:17.Trevor Ganz in the big games this year. Is it affecting Rio, has it
:26:18. > :26:30.moved to the big cities? Yes. In year. Is it affecting Rio, has it
:26:31. > :26:34.seven or eight months later. Zika is very difficult to diagnose, we
:26:35. > :26:38.seven or eight months later. Zika is is starting to happen in Sao
:26:39. > :26:40.seven or eight months later. Zika is yes. I think it is only six estates
:26:41. > :26:47.in Brazil who do not have cases yet. So yes, it is spreading in the whole
:26:48. > :26:51.of Brazil. So, a pregnant woman thinking of going to the Olympics,
:26:52. > :26:56.is it a serious enough risk, especially in the early stages of
:26:57. > :27:02.pregnancy, to say, don't go? We do not want to be scaremongering but...
:27:03. > :27:06.I think the best thing is to look at a Foreign Office travel advice. They
:27:07. > :27:11.would have advised that they update every week just the advice right now
:27:12. > :27:17.is not to go in places where it is. But of course those things change
:27:18. > :27:19.every week. We know malarial mosquitoes are in some parts of the
:27:20. > :27:26.world but not others. These mosquitoes...? Mosquitoes are
:27:27. > :27:36.already around the globe. South of Mexico, southern Europe, Pakistan,
:27:37. > :27:39.there is mosquitoes. The Zika virus has not gone there yet, in all of
:27:40. > :27:49.those countries, but the conditions are there. It is going to be a
:27:50. > :27:51.global crisis. Thank you very much for joining us.
:27:52. > :27:54.It's several years now, since we all learned
:27:55. > :28:02.how on earth did he get away with it?
:28:03. > :28:06.Well, an inquiry into the BBC's handling of the case is soon to be
:28:07. > :28:09.published - it hasn't come out yet, but no-one is letting that stop
:28:10. > :28:11.anyone talking about it, because a draft has been leaked.
:28:12. > :28:16.Dame Janet Smith's report into Jimmy Savile's behaviour
:28:17. > :28:19.at the BBC makes more than 60 allegations,
:28:20. > :28:23.they include rape, assault, and groping.
:28:24. > :28:31.Victims are children and adults, male and female.
:28:32. > :28:34.Dame Janet Smith says this leak is not of her final
:28:35. > :28:37.Nevertheless, it helps us answer the question,
:28:38. > :28:45.In her draft report, Dame Janet makes clear
:28:46. > :28:48.that she thinks the BBC's culture in the 70s and 80s
:28:49. > :28:50.was a particular problem, this was an old-fashioned place.
:28:51. > :28:53.Executives used to have drinks cabinets in their
:28:54. > :28:58.offices, that were refilled at licence fee payer's expense,
:28:59. > :29:01.this was a silo place where people did not
:29:02. > :29:05.share information from one programme to another.
:29:06. > :29:07.And it was a deferential, hierarchical corporation,
:29:08. > :29:09.a place where you did not cause
:29:10. > :29:11.trouble for people who were more important than you,
:29:12. > :29:14.and Jimmy Savile, at the height of his powers, was one of the most
:29:15. > :29:19.Here is Jimmy Savile presenting the Speakeasy
:29:20. > :29:24.After one recording in London in 1970, Savile
:29:25. > :29:27.tried to rape a BBC employee who had been in the audience.
:29:28. > :29:28.The 19-year-old told colleagues and they
:29:29. > :29:37.But Dame Janet notes that Savile had boasted darkly about sex
:29:38. > :29:41.and violence in interviews and books.
:29:42. > :29:43.It was enough that civil servants did
:29:44. > :29:47.not want to give him an honour in the mid-80s,
:29:48. > :29:49.but it was not taken seriously in the BBC.
:29:50. > :29:52.The producer of Jim'll Fix It is waiting for a final version
:29:53. > :29:54.of Dame Janet's findings before he comments on them,
:29:55. > :30:00.but he did have this to say today about his former colleague.
:30:01. > :30:05.Jimmy Savile would tell stories about himself which were self
:30:06. > :30:12.aggrandising, boastful, and he was a braggart.
:30:13. > :30:18.I had been in situations with him which I later heard him recount
:30:19. > :30:21.to other people, and his later recounting was nothing like what had
:30:22. > :30:27.So when he bragged to me about an offence I had not
:30:28. > :30:30.witnessed, I did not believe them either.
:30:31. > :30:33.Not that he ever bragged about anything untoward sexually,
:30:34. > :30:36.but he would talk vaguely about conquests,
:30:37. > :30:49.Still, some of Savile's behaviour was in the open.
:30:50. > :30:54.Dame Janet says the lady in distress here on the left
:30:55. > :30:57.later complained about being groped on Top Of The Pops and her sexual
:30:58. > :31:02.The report finds no smoking gun, that anyone senior knew enough,
:31:03. > :31:05.but it does query why some people who worked with him did not
:31:06. > :31:10.Jimmy Savile was very good at fooling people,
:31:11. > :31:17.he fooled the Vatican, he fooled the honours committee,
:31:18. > :31:23.he fooled Margaret Thatcher, he fooled the heir to the throne
:31:24. > :31:27.and his wife, and therefore it is not surprising that he fooled
:31:28. > :31:33.I think now, in retrospect, he was getting a buzz
:31:34. > :31:36.out of the fact that he was doing these things and fooling everybody
:31:37. > :31:38.and achieving this great status at the same time.
:31:39. > :31:40.Jimmy Savile was never formally investigated by the BBC,
:31:41. > :31:43.but Dame Janet noted that even if he had been,
:31:44. > :31:45.the BBC's probes of the 70s into allegations of sexual abuse
:31:46. > :31:59.Derek Chinnery's boss Mr Muggeridge asked him to make
:32:00. > :32:04.This interview was filmed before his death last year.
:32:05. > :32:09.He had heard rumours about what Jimmy Savile was up
:32:10. > :32:13.It was typical old-fashioned BBC management speak,
:32:14. > :32:15.and Jimmy said it was a load of nonsense.
:32:16. > :32:21.I rang Douglas and told him he said it was a load of nonsense,
:32:22. > :32:29.We now know it was on this street where Jimmy Savile had a flat
:32:30. > :32:32.five minutes walk from the BBC's headquarters, where he committed
:32:33. > :32:34.some of his worst abuses, we also know many people heard
:32:35. > :32:36.rumours that this was going on, that he was
:32:37. > :32:38.bringing young girls back to his home.
:32:39. > :32:40.So why did they do not do anything about it?
:32:41. > :32:43.The truth is, many people heard the stories about
:32:44. > :32:49.Jimmy Savile and they did not really believe them,
:32:50. > :32:52.they were part of the Jimmy myth, many people thought he was actually
:32:53. > :32:57.a-sexual and just bragging to hide that fact.
:32:58. > :32:59.The more people heard these stories, the less they seemed
:33:00. > :33:03.If Dame Janet's final version is close to
:33:04. > :33:07.her draft, she will find that this is largely a story about people
:33:08. > :33:11.too worried to raise concerns, about naive
:33:12. > :33:13.colleagues who did not see patterns and who disregarded rumours,
:33:14. > :33:15.and management that did not simply think
:33:16. > :33:18.enough of the young people to whom it owed a duty of care.
:33:19. > :33:23.We did ask to speak to someone from the BBC but they declined.
:33:24. > :33:26.It just so happens, that this leak of a draft of the review
:33:27. > :33:29.into the Savile case has arrived, just as a film called
:33:30. > :33:31.Spotlight opens here, looking at a related issue.
:33:32. > :33:34.It's the story of the journalists on the Boston Globe,
:33:35. > :33:35.who exposed the scandal of paedophile Catholic
:33:36. > :33:47.But the numbers clearly indicate that there
:33:48. > :33:53.Are you telling me that if we run a story with 50 paedophile
:33:54. > :33:58.You will get into the same catfight that you did on Porter,
:33:59. > :34:01.which made a lot of noise, but changed things not one bit.
:34:02. > :34:03.We need to focus on the institution, not the individual priests.
:34:04. > :34:07.Show me the church manipulated the systems so that these guys
:34:08. > :34:11.Show me they put those same priests back into parishes time
:34:12. > :34:15.Show me this was systemic, that it came from the top down.
:34:16. > :34:17.It's a gripping tale, a real life one, that ignited
:34:18. > :34:21.the exposure of paedophile priests worldwide.
:34:22. > :34:24.Now one of the most interesting themes is what one might call
:34:25. > :34:27.the cover-up - the hard cover-up, of evidence deliberately hidden.
:34:28. > :34:29.But also the soft cover-up, of people not talking
:34:30. > :34:33.about what was going on, because they didn't see it,
:34:34. > :34:40.It resonates with what we know about the BBC and Savile.
:34:41. > :34:43.Two of the real life journalists involved in the Boston
:34:44. > :34:47.priest case are in London, and with me here.
:34:48. > :34:50.Walter Robinson and Mike Rezendes from the Boston Globe -
:34:51. > :35:00.who both won Pulitzer prizes for their work.
:35:01. > :35:07.You are Mark Rafa low and you are Michael Keaton in the film, and you?
:35:08. > :35:12.Fascinated to know what you made about the obstacles you faced and
:35:13. > :35:15.the time it took to get to the bottom of what was happening in the
:35:16. > :35:22.Catholic Church and the way it took so long for that to come out here at
:35:23. > :35:26.the BBC. Was it a soft cover up? We are dealing with a different
:35:27. > :35:30.situation, the Catholic Church, which was the target of our
:35:31. > :35:33.investigation, is one of the most secretive organisations in the
:35:34. > :35:38.world. Penetrating that organisation, which had no documents
:35:39. > :35:45.and no willingness to talk at all, is obviously a bit different. In the
:35:46. > :35:52.larger community sense, in Boston, and in every major archdiocese in
:35:53. > :35:59.the United States, there was too much deference paid to the church,
:36:00. > :36:01.and when accusations of single incidents were made, everybody
:36:02. > :36:09.tended to believe the cardinal when he said it is just one priest, just
:36:10. > :36:17.like it is one little Aryan priest over there, not enough questions
:36:18. > :36:23.were asked. -- Lutheran priest. We had the cover-up of these priests
:36:24. > :36:26.who were abusing children, this was about to continue for too long in
:36:27. > :36:35.the United States, but finally we did crack the code. There is a great
:36:36. > :36:42.line in the film, the paper it self had been reporting on some of this,
:36:43. > :36:45.but the line in the film is, we are all scrambling around in the dark
:36:46. > :36:50.and then someone switches a light on, and then it all gushes out in
:36:51. > :36:54.one go, is that how it felt? The victims were very quiet, but then
:36:55. > :36:58.when you reported on it in a big way, many came forward with their
:36:59. > :37:02.stories? It really did feel that way, when we have the documents that
:37:03. > :37:06.prove that there was a cover-up in Boston at the highest level, when we
:37:07. > :37:11.proved that irrefutably and we published the information, in the
:37:12. > :37:14.last scene of the film you see that we come into the office and the
:37:15. > :37:19.phones are ringing off the hook, it was as if the dam burst. There were
:37:20. > :37:23.hundreds of victims suddenly, who were very eager to come forward and
:37:24. > :37:26.tell us their stories about bad priests and lives that were
:37:27. > :37:31.destroyed. By reporting that information, that made all the
:37:32. > :37:34.difference in the world. That rings true of what has happened in this
:37:35. > :37:38.country, not just with Jimmy Savile, but other cases. They have become
:37:39. > :37:44.much more talked about than they ever were. What about pointing the
:37:45. > :37:50.finger of blame? You were able to point at particular individuals who
:37:51. > :37:54.knew. Were there people that should have known but didn't know, or
:37:55. > :37:59.wilfully blind? have known but didn't know, or
:38:00. > :38:05.situation, the Church presents have known but didn't know, or
:38:06. > :38:09.itself as a paragon of morality, and people
:38:10. > :38:11.itself as a paragon of morality, and up to. For many people, it was
:38:12. > :38:19.impossible to up to. For many people, it was
:38:20. > :38:22.capable of such systemic and deep corruption, it was very difficult to
:38:23. > :38:26.capable of such systemic and deep believe. I would also say, we now
:38:27. > :38:28.know that this problem existed nationwide and worldwide, and in
:38:29. > :38:29.every city in nationwide and worldwide, and in
:38:30. > :38:38.there were people that nationwide and worldwide, and in
:38:39. > :38:45.deference to the church never anything about it. The Boston Globe
:38:46. > :38:46.turned the lights on, as you said. Does it go further than just the
:38:47. > :38:52.Catholic Church? What came out Does it go further than just the
:38:53. > :38:54.the Jimmy Savile case and practice at the BBC,
:38:55. > :38:58.the Jimmy Savile case and practice institutions at the same time that
:38:59. > :39:01.were all embarrassed in this kind of way, I wonder if you have turned
:39:02. > :39:09.over something which was wider than just the Catholic Church? In the
:39:10. > :39:15.Catholic Church, we found in the Boston Archdiocese fully 10% of
:39:16. > :39:24.priests had abused children over decades, and the church was very
:39:25. > :39:34.secretive, but there was a culture of secrecy within the church as
:39:35. > :39:40.well. The priests were quiet about other priests who were abusing
:39:41. > :39:45.children. But for all of us, it was the children, and how we protect our
:39:46. > :39:51.children from those who would do these things. The failing in the
:39:52. > :39:56.United States, and the failing of police and prosecutors, many of whom
:39:57. > :40:00.knew what was going on, and sometimes they gave the priests, the
:40:01. > :40:05.failure of people that suspect this kind of activity in any
:40:06. > :40:08.organisation, who don't report it, they are doing extraordinary
:40:09. > :40:14.disservice to the children that we all love so much. There is a line in
:40:15. > :40:18.the film, it takes a village to protect a child, it takes a village
:40:19. > :40:27.to abuse a child. Thanks for joining us.
:40:28. > :40:30.Before we go, we've just got time for a bit of light relief.
:40:31. > :40:33.Down in Bristol, Slapstick - the annual silent comedy festival -
:40:34. > :40:36.is taking place, and the organisers have unearthed a lost short film
:40:37. > :40:38.from 1923 starring a very youthful looking Stan Laurel, pre-Hardy.
:40:39. > :40:40.Here's a taste of the film, which, as you'll see,
:40:41. > :40:42.features some pretty impressive visual effects.
:40:43. > :41:31.Good evening, this week started off on a cold and frosty note, it is
:41:32. > :41:33.ending on a milder note. Friday