:00:00. > :00:14.Can we really blame Google for not paying more tax?
:00:15. > :00:21.We have low taxes in Britain, but those taxes are paid. This never
:00:22. > :00:23.happened when there was a Labour Government in office, so you hear
:00:24. > :00:28.them complaining about it, but they should have done something when they
:00:29. > :00:30.were in office. Who's got it right? We speak live to the Shadow
:00:31. > :00:35.Chancellor, John McDonnell. Take your eyes off Trump and look
:00:36. > :00:38.at the Democrats for a moment - what once seemed like an easy race
:00:39. > :00:41.for Hillary Clinton is now looking We speak to one of her closest
:00:42. > :00:48.allies about her battle There are plenty of male politicians
:00:49. > :00:51.who have outright scandals that happened to them and they overcome
:00:52. > :00:54.them. So I see some of this through a gender lens, I can't help it.
:00:55. > :01:01.We ask some of those experiencing it.
:01:02. > :01:08.We don't pluck money off trees like they think. You have people back
:01:09. > :01:12.home calling you and asking you for money. You are in London, you are
:01:13. > :01:15.rich. They should come and see some of the jobs we are doing.
:01:16. > :01:40.Boris Johnson wrote today - "...blame a shark for eating seals.
:01:41. > :01:43.It is the nature of the beast and it's the law."
:01:44. > :01:45.He was talking about Google and its tax bill.
:01:46. > :01:48.His point was simple: How absurd to blame a company for attempting
:01:49. > :01:50.to minimise the amount it pays out to the Government,
:01:51. > :01:53.when it lies at the very root of what any finance director
:01:54. > :01:58.So tonight, we step back from one company and one bill and ask if that
:01:59. > :02:03.Is it immoral to use a loophole to your company's advantage?
:02:04. > :02:08.And what should this whole debate tell us about our attitude
:02:09. > :02:10.to taxation and the message our legislators send out
:02:11. > :02:14.In a moment we'll talk to Labour's Shadow Chancellor,
:02:15. > :02:16.John Mcdonnell, who called the Google settlement of ?130
:02:17. > :02:19.million pounds "relatively insignifcant".
:02:20. > :02:30.If you look closely enough and have the right equipment, you can even
:02:31. > :02:31.see the apparently tiny sums that multinational corporations pay in UK
:02:32. > :02:33.tax. Under the political microscope
:02:34. > :02:37.today, the ?130 million settlement Google has paid in back taxes
:02:38. > :02:40.in a deal with Her Majesty's Revenue According to the Shadow Chancellor,
:02:41. > :02:46.this is a derisory sum. The Chancellor has managed to create
:02:47. > :02:50.an unlikely alliance between myself, the Sun newspaper, the Mayor
:02:51. > :03:04.of London and, according to reports, All of us think that this deal is
:03:05. > :03:07.not the "major success" the Chancellor claimed at the weekend.
:03:08. > :03:12.a lab that fights against malaria, rejected Labour's analysis.
:03:13. > :03:14.I think it's good news is that we are collecting tax
:03:15. > :03:19.That's thanks to the action that this
:03:20. > :03:22.Government has taken to make sure that yes,
:03:23. > :03:24.we have low taxes in Britain, but those taxes are paid.
:03:25. > :03:27.But is the real problem that our tax system hasn't kept pace
:03:28. > :03:32.According to the House of Lords economic affairs committee,
:03:33. > :03:34.corporation tax in a given country is now largely voluntary
:03:35. > :03:41.And that is particularly true of high-tech
:03:42. > :03:45.Most of its value is created by intangibles.
:03:46. > :03:51.And that is something the current tax
:03:52. > :03:56.Google, for example, uses a manoeuvre known as the double
:03:57. > :03:58.Irish, shifting profits between Ireland,
:03:59. > :04:01.with low corporate rates of tax, and Bermuda, with no corporate
:04:02. > :04:06.The problem for nation states is, this is all perfectly legal,
:04:07. > :04:09.and as our economies evolve, more and
:04:10. > :04:11.more companies will be able to do it.
:04:12. > :04:14.What constitutes the correct amount of tax is becoming an elastic
:04:15. > :04:19.Google is the symptom, but they're probably not the cause.
:04:20. > :04:28.particularly the corporate tax system,
:04:29. > :04:31.if we're to protect the tax base for the next 25 years.
:04:32. > :04:33.Because even if the executives of a company woke up one day
:04:34. > :04:36.and decided out of the goodness of their hearts
:04:37. > :04:38.that their corporations should pay vastly more tax,
:04:39. > :04:41.well, the people who own those companies
:04:42. > :04:48.of perhaps the Labour Party, then they could face
:04:49. > :04:53.where the shareholders would accuse them
:04:54. > :04:57.So how might we change the tax system
:04:58. > :05:00.so that companies can't shift their profits and costs
:05:01. > :05:05.Well, one answer is to tax something
:05:06. > :05:12.we will always be able to see where the sales are.
:05:13. > :05:15.So we will be able to link the activity of the company
:05:16. > :05:24.with taxation, something we are not able to do now.
:05:25. > :05:27.The science of getting companies to pay more is far from simple.
:05:28. > :05:29.The twin forces of globalisation and computerisation
:05:30. > :05:32.make national boundaries, even in activities as mundane
:05:33. > :05:35.as ordering a coffee, buying a book or hailing
:05:36. > :05:46.I'm joined by Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell.
:05:47. > :05:55.Thanks for coming in. This payout by Google hasn't impressed you. No.
:05:56. > :05:59.Independent assessors have assessed it at about 3%. In comparison with
:06:00. > :06:04.that, the corporation tax during this period was between 20% to 30%.
:06:05. > :06:08.Other taxpayers, particularly businesses in this country, will be
:06:09. > :06:11.startled and offended. What should it have been then? You go back to
:06:12. > :06:16.the corporate tax rate, what should that rate be now? Again, independent
:06:17. > :06:19.assessors have said if Google were paying what others were paying
:06:20. > :06:24.throughout that period, instead of the 200 million they've paid for ten
:06:25. > :06:28.years, on average they'd pay 200 million a year. You can see why
:06:29. > :06:34.people across the House, it was all parties today, MPs from all parties
:06:35. > :06:38.were expressing their concern. It was described by Boris Johnson
:06:39. > :06:43.himself as derisory. The biggest question is whether the current tax
:06:44. > :06:47.system itself works. You heard there, the correct amount of tax is
:06:48. > :06:52.an elastic concept. Did you agree that the system is ripe for reform?
:06:53. > :06:55.Andrew's announced a review by the Treasury Select Committee today of
:06:56. > :06:58.the tax system. We've instituted one for the Labour Party already. I did
:06:59. > :07:03.that at my conference speech last September. The system's not working.
:07:04. > :07:07.A couple of problems - one, the lack of transpatience yr and openness.
:07:08. > :07:12.The Chancellor -- transparency. The Chancellor didn't come to the House
:07:13. > :07:17.today. He sent a junior minister. We need complete openness and
:07:18. > :07:20.transparency. We need international agreements of country by country
:07:21. > :07:25.reporting, so individual countries are reported what their profits are
:07:26. > :07:28.country by country. I raised with the minister today, we cannot keep
:07:29. > :07:34.on cutting and demoralising the staff at Midnight Mass Iraq. These
:07:35. > :07:39.are the -- HMRC. These are the people who collect the taxes.
:07:40. > :07:44.Transparency at the heart of this. Labour's plans to plans the books
:07:45. > :07:48.will be aggressive, you said at conference, we will force people
:07:49. > :07:52.like Starbucks, Amazon, Google to pay their fair share of taxes, what
:07:53. > :07:56.does that mean to go after them aggressively? It means we cannot
:07:57. > :08:01.allow deals like this in the future. We must design our tax system so
:08:02. > :08:04.it's effective. If anyone owe fends against that we make sure they're
:08:05. > :08:07.brought to book. That's the end of the double Irish, the end of
:08:08. > :08:12.loopholes, what would you do with the corporate tax rate? This is what
:08:13. > :08:14.I thought George Osborne was supporting, international agreements
:08:15. > :08:19.which ensures that we don't have these schemes in place. This scheme
:08:20. > :08:23.undermines those very international agreements we're putting forward,
:08:24. > :08:27.because it's a one off that sets a precedent. What would you do, you
:08:28. > :08:31.use the word "aggressive" in terms of what you would change now, what
:08:32. > :08:35.are the loopholes that just vanish under Labour? It's making sure they
:08:36. > :08:39.report their activities on the ground. They can't shift profits.
:08:40. > :08:44.Where they make them in one country, remember Google made ?1 billion
:08:45. > :08:49.worth of profits in 2014, they then shift those profits and other areas
:08:50. > :08:52.of activity to other countries. Should for example Starbucks be
:08:53. > :08:56.taxed on each individual outlet, each of the profits of an individual
:08:57. > :09:01.coffee shop, is that what you'd like to see? Part review is to define
:09:02. > :09:04.what economic activity is. If the profits are made within a country,
:09:05. > :09:08.they should be taxed within that country. We need to do this by
:09:09. > :09:11.international agreement, otherwise we'll find that people are using
:09:12. > :09:15.devices to shift their burdens elsewhere and reduce their tax
:09:16. > :09:18.burdens overall. Going back to that idea, would you like to see, for
:09:19. > :09:23.example, Starbucks as an individual outlet taxed on profits or would you
:09:24. > :09:26.like to see local authorities refuse planning permission to Starbucks
:09:27. > :09:30.until they agree to pay what is right? I think we need, first of
:09:31. > :09:34.all, national legislation reform. We need international agreement. So
:09:35. > :09:40.it's not down to the individual sanctions of individual authorities.
:09:41. > :09:45.This an early day motion sponsored by Jeremy Corbyn, your leader and
:09:46. > :09:49.signed by you. That's right. Has that changed in your mind? Not at
:09:50. > :09:55.all. We've been campaigning on this for 15, 20 years. We were looking at
:09:56. > :09:58.different devices to raise the publicity around that. That was one
:09:59. > :10:02.of the ideas that was come up with. It's just to raise publicity then,
:10:03. > :10:07.it wasn't serious? It was to ensure that the range of activities on the
:10:08. > :10:13.agenda that we can explore when we go into Government. What about a tax
:10:14. > :10:18.on sales? What about taxing the activity of a company, its revenue
:10:19. > :10:21.or sales? At the moment, the Government defines this taxation
:10:22. > :10:25.based upon economic activity within the country. The problem with the
:10:26. > :10:29.Google settlement - We know it's taxed on profits. Let's be clear,
:10:30. > :10:33.what the Government is saying is that it's taxed on economic
:10:34. > :10:37.activity. They would not define today in the Google settlement what
:10:38. > :10:41.exactly that economic activity was. That's why we're saying there's got
:10:42. > :10:45.to be openness and transparency. What should it be? We define
:10:46. > :10:47.economic activity by the basis of the profits that you secure within a
:10:48. > :10:51.country. It's down to profits. the profits that you secure within a
:10:52. > :10:56.asking you one step further - can you imagine a system which actually
:10:57. > :10:59.worked off the revenues a company was making or the sales it was
:11:00. > :11:03.making, rather than the profits is that the direction to go in? We've
:11:04. > :11:07.always worked on the basis that you seek to tax on the economic
:11:08. > :11:13.activity, based on identification of profits within a country itself. If
:11:14. > :11:15.we can secure openness and transparency, we can identify what
:11:16. > :11:19.the economic activities of that company is within the country, what
:11:20. > :11:23.the profits are, and then we can determine the level of taxation that
:11:24. > :11:27.we need to basically to ensure we have our services paid for. Also we
:11:28. > :11:30.need international agreement so there isn't this transfer and
:11:31. > :11:35.avoidance of tax. From one to another. Yes. I'm thinking back to
:11:36. > :11:39.the phrase you used at conference, "new politics requires new
:11:40. > :11:43.economics". There will be people expecting you to come in and do
:11:44. > :11:47.economics". There will be people something radically different, to
:11:48. > :11:50.rely re-- really reset the button between the relationship with the
:11:51. > :11:53.corporate giants that seem to be getting away with it and with the
:11:54. > :11:58.Government in waiting, which you want to be. This sounds like more of
:11:59. > :12:01.the same. Not at all. You said transparency, debate, we'll look at
:12:02. > :12:06.this. I don't see anyone saying we're going to do things radically
:12:07. > :12:10.different. This is radical. Making sure companies open their books and
:12:11. > :12:15.we can have complete openness and transparency. So it's just about
:12:16. > :12:20.transparency. You're not saying put up the corporate tax rate. Wait for
:12:21. > :12:23.it. Once you have openness, you can determine the economic activities,
:12:24. > :12:28.the profits they're making. Then we can set the tax rates on the basis
:12:29. > :12:32.what have we think is fair. What's unfair is companies out there across
:12:33. > :12:36.the UK filling in their tax forms, as are individuals, what they're
:12:37. > :12:40.paying is rates of tax, corporation tax 20%, higher on income tax, then
:12:41. > :12:45.Google paying 3%. That's unacceptable, unfair. We need to
:12:46. > :12:49.make sure the corporations cannot use tax avoidance measures to avoid
:12:50. > :12:52.their responsibilities to pay in for the public services, for example the
:12:53. > :12:57.education and training of their workforce. There are people who felt
:12:58. > :13:01.at one time they should boycott Starbucks if they didn't agree with
:13:02. > :13:06.the tax. Would you boycott Google? I've been involved in a range of
:13:07. > :13:11.boycotting campaigns. Do you boycott Google? The problem, is that a
:13:12. > :13:13.number of the IT companies have virtual monopolies, so most of us
:13:14. > :13:18.use it. We have to make sure where they are in such a dominant place -
:13:19. > :13:21.You carry on using Google broadly, there's nothing that you can do that
:13:22. > :13:24.would scare off people? Because they're so dominant within the
:13:25. > :13:30.market that's the reality of what we're dealing with. That's why you
:13:31. > :13:33.design a tax regime so you ensure those monopolies pay their full
:13:34. > :13:38.taxes and contribute towards the society they operate in. You don't
:13:39. > :13:43.think there's anything to scare Google off? Yes, it is. It's going
:13:44. > :13:47.to be John McDonnell and the Labour Party? It's society as a whole. We
:13:48. > :13:50.saw the Government isolated today on a cross-party basis people saying
:13:51. > :13:54.we've had enough of this, we want a fair taxation system and we're going
:13:55. > :13:58.to achieve it. Corporate tax at 18%, that's where it's headed is that the
:13:59. > :14:02.right amount to you? No, it isn't. That's too low. We would bring it
:14:03. > :14:06.back to 20%. We believe 18% is too low. In addition, they're reducing
:14:07. > :14:09.taxation, yet a large number of corporations and companies are
:14:10. > :14:14.sitting on earned income and not investing it. We want to ensure they
:14:15. > :14:20.invest in our society. Thank you. Thanks for coming in.
:14:21. > :14:22.The US presidential race has - for the past few months -
:14:23. > :14:24.been dominated by the politically-implausible,
:14:25. > :14:25.larger-than-life character of Donald Trump,
:14:26. > :14:27.which means much of what's happening in the Democratic race
:14:28. > :14:30.But if that race once looked like the coronation
:14:31. > :14:33.of Hillary Clinton, now it's looking more like a proper fight.
:14:34. > :14:35.Her challenger, Bernie Sanders, a self-declared socialist
:14:36. > :14:37.from Vermont, currently leads the polls in the first two electoral
:14:38. > :14:41.Now the former Mayor of New York, Michael Bloomberg -
:14:42. > :14:44.a man whose coffers make Donald Trump look like a pauper -
:14:45. > :14:48.suggested he might enter the race for the White House if the contest
:14:49. > :14:54.came down to a fight between Sanders and Trump.
:14:55. > :14:56.In a moment, we'll hear from Anne-Marie Slaughter,
:14:57. > :14:57.one of Clinton's closest political allies.
:14:58. > :15:00.First, a reminder of the race to date.
:15:01. > :15:03.Sometimes, an attack is the biggest compliment a politician can
:15:04. > :15:07.So Bernie Sanders has clearly gone up in Hillary Clinton's estimation
:15:08. > :15:12.if this jab at his healthcare plan is anything to go by.
:15:13. > :15:15.In theory, there is a lot to like
:15:16. > :15:18.about some of his ideas. But "in theory" isn't enough.
:15:19. > :15:23.A president has to deliver in reality.
:15:24. > :15:25.The Sanders surge has also prompted another politician
:15:26. > :15:31.Former New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg is hinting that he'll get
:15:32. > :15:36.into the race if Donald Trump or Ted Cruz
:15:37. > :15:38.wins the Republican nomination, and Bernie Sanders becomes
:15:39. > :15:43.For his part, Mr Sanders appears to welcome a Bloomberg bid.
:15:44. > :15:46.If Donald Trump wins and Mr Bloomberg gets in,
:15:47. > :15:47.you'll have two multi billionaires running
:15:48. > :15:51.for President of the United States against me.
:15:52. > :15:54.And I think the American people do not want to see our nation
:15:55. > :15:58.where billionaires control the political process.
:15:59. > :16:06.Meanwhile, the Republican race frontrunner Donald Trump has
:16:07. > :16:08.been laying out how bullet-proof his popularity really is.
:16:09. > :16:10.They say I have the most loyal people,
:16:11. > :16:13.I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot
:16:14. > :16:16.somebody and I wouldn't lose any voters.
:16:17. > :16:19.To reflect on this, I spoke to Anne-Marie Slaughter,
:16:20. > :16:22.former senior adviser to Mrs Clinton.
:16:23. > :16:24.You've worked very closely with Hillary Clinton,
:16:25. > :16:29.who for years, to the world, seemed like she had the Democratic
:16:30. > :16:32.nomination pretty much in the bag this time.
:16:33. > :16:35.Now, suddenly, there is the spectre of what happens in Iowa
:16:36. > :16:39.and New Hampshire if Bernie Sanders pips her to the post.
:16:40. > :16:47.Well, I am still pretty confident that she will have
:16:48. > :16:51.the Democratic nomination and I do think it is not a bad thing
:16:52. > :16:53.for her to be challenged, because the American voters do not
:16:54. > :16:58.like a coronation, whether it is a man or woman,
:16:59. > :17:00.particularly, probably, if it is a woman.
:17:01. > :17:03.So she will fight for it and as she fights, that is part
:17:04. > :17:06.She is tough and experienced, and I think she will
:17:07. > :17:10.If she didn't, I for one would look at this and think,
:17:11. > :17:13.I'm not sure we're going to have a woman
:17:14. > :17:16.You can't get more qualified than she is.
:17:17. > :17:19.Of course, there have been lots of issues in her life.
:17:20. > :17:21.You can't be in the public eye for that long
:17:22. > :17:24.and not have lots of issues, but there are plenty of male
:17:25. > :17:26.politicians who have plenty of outright scandals that happened
:17:27. > :17:28.to them, and they have overcome them.
:17:29. > :17:31.So I do see some of this through a gender lens,
:17:32. > :17:34.I can't help it, because I am looking at her and thinking,
:17:35. > :17:38.what more could you want in a president?
:17:39. > :17:42.The interesting dichotomy is that she should be
:17:43. > :17:44.the ground-breaking candidate, the first woman, and she doesn't
:17:45. > :17:47.seem like the ground-breaking candidate, because
:17:48. > :17:50.America feels that they know her almost too well.
:17:51. > :17:52.She feels like the establishment to many people.
:17:53. > :17:59.We saw that with Obama, too, this disgust with the system,
:18:00. > :18:01.rightly in many ways, because the system is broken.
:18:02. > :18:06.Yes, they have cast her as the establishment,
:18:07. > :18:08.but I also think it is because younger women
:18:09. > :18:11.don't realise how revolutionary it is to have a woman being taken
:18:12. > :18:15.seriously as a presidential candidate.
:18:16. > :18:19.Did you see Obama's recent comments that he
:18:20. > :18:21.thinks Hillary Clinton has got unfair scrutiny,
:18:22. > :18:25.and that he even regrets the tone of the battle they had in 2008?
:18:26. > :18:30.I did not see that, but I was furious with him
:18:31. > :18:34.back when he said, "You're likeable enough, Hillary".
:18:35. > :18:39.I did think he patronised her in the 2008 election,
:18:40. > :18:42.and it was one of the things, I wanted him too, but in the end
:18:43. > :18:46.I supported her, because I think she was treated in a very
:18:47. > :18:52.and good for him for saying that now.
:18:53. > :18:55.When you look at the race, and the suggestion that Bloomberg
:18:56. > :18:57.might come into it, could you see that?
:18:58. > :19:00.Is that a good move as an independent?
:19:01. > :19:03.Well, I look at this and think, wait a minute,
:19:04. > :19:07.between two white male billionaires, really?
:19:08. > :19:11.Is that what American politics has come down to?
:19:12. > :19:18.I don't know whether he will do it. I don't think he should.
:19:19. > :19:27.This is not a professional view, but I don't think
:19:28. > :19:30.it would be good for American politics to have a kind of
:19:31. > :19:33.very wealthy, white knight ride to the rescue,
:19:34. > :19:37.because a woman, what? That she can't win?
:19:38. > :19:40.Let's have this election, and let's give her a chance,
:19:41. > :19:44.and I also think if there is another attack,
:19:45. > :19:47.if there are any other national-security events,
:19:48. > :19:49.and there will be, voters are going to think,
:19:50. > :19:52.who do you want in charge when that happens?
:19:53. > :19:55.Can you see a scenario in which Donald Trump wins
:19:56. > :19:58.the nomination and wins the presidency?
:19:59. > :20:03.I can see a scenario in which he wins the nomination.
:20:04. > :20:08.But not the presidency, you cannot imagine President Trump?
:20:09. > :20:17.But I have a lot of confidence in Hillary Clinton.
:20:18. > :20:22.We could be looking at the first female presidency by November.
:20:23. > :20:25.Do you think that would feel different?
:20:26. > :20:28.Should it feel different if a woman is the president?
:20:29. > :20:32.I think it will feel enormously different.
:20:33. > :20:36.We can say women have got there, but in fact, in the corridors
:20:37. > :20:39.of power, and let's face it, the Oval Office is the ultimate seat
:20:40. > :20:43.of power, certainly in the United States and in many
:20:44. > :20:46.ways in the world, having a woman in that
:20:47. > :20:50.position does say to every woman and every girl,
:20:51. > :20:59.His lifelong hero was Earnest Shackleton,
:21:00. > :21:04.across the Antarctic that Henry Worlsley was trying
:21:05. > :21:06.to recreate - with the huge, added challenge that Worsley
:21:07. > :21:12.Like Shackleton, his bravery and his willingness to endure
:21:13. > :21:16.endless, uncharted terrain led him into a desperate race for survival
:21:17. > :21:19.The British explorer died of organ failure,
:21:20. > :21:25.tragically, when the end of the mission was almost in sight -
:21:26. > :21:27.just 30 miles remained of his 1,000-mile journey.
:21:28. > :21:29.Prince William has led the tributes to the former SAS officer,
:21:30. > :21:31.who died raising money for wounded soldiers.
:21:32. > :22:04.All alone in Antarctica, Henry Worsley kept an audio diary of his
:22:05. > :22:10.extraordinary trek. He hoped to achieve what his great hero, Sir
:22:11. > :22:16.Ernest Shackleton, had failed to do a century earlier, and cross this
:22:17. > :22:19.great white wilderness. On earlier accompanied adventures, Worsley
:22:20. > :22:27.settled down for the long evenings with Shackleton's writing. We would
:22:28. > :22:32.read the heart of Antarctica every night, and pick out bits of his
:22:33. > :22:38.diary that are absolutely spot on to where we have got two on the
:22:39. > :22:41.journey. Very meaningful, brings it all to life, particularly the
:22:42. > :22:46.description of the views he can say and the trouble he is having with
:22:47. > :22:51.his ponies, and even the weather. He had worse weather than we are
:22:52. > :22:55.having. Shackleton is one of the great romantic figures of British
:22:56. > :22:59.exploration. His epic mission failed after his ship was crushed by ice,
:23:00. > :23:04.but he kept his men alive. They all came home again. He is remembered in
:23:05. > :23:10.an exhibition at the royal geographical Society in London. I
:23:11. > :23:14.think it has a lot to do with the psyche of the British public in
:23:15. > :23:17.terms of the storytelling that goes with all of these expeditions,
:23:18. > :23:21.because they are handed down to us through generations. There is always
:23:22. > :23:25.a willingness for somebody to give up something for others. Those were
:23:26. > :23:28.the equivalence of Nasa sending men into space. They have a sense of
:23:29. > :23:34.where they were going. They had all the equipment and the skills they
:23:35. > :23:36.could have individually, but ultimately, it was the men in the
:23:37. > :23:56.wilderness environment. On his earlier journey in the South
:23:57. > :24:02.Pole, Henry Worsley reached the spot where Shackleton decided he couldn't
:24:03. > :24:07.go on. The decision to turn back must be one of the greatest
:24:08. > :24:12.decisions taken in the whole annals of exploration, particularly polar
:24:13. > :24:17.exploration. He came so close. He pioneered this route, 850 miles.
:24:18. > :24:24.Every day, he was seeing new sites. 97 miles to go, and turns round when
:24:25. > :25:15.such a glorious prize is staring him in the face.
:25:16. > :25:20.I'm joined by record-breaking Polar explorer, Caroline Hamilton,
:25:21. > :25:22.and from our Birmingham studio, professional explorer Mark Wood,
:25:23. > :25:25.who was a friend of Henry Worsley and has completed over 30 major
:25:26. > :25:27.expeditions around the world, including a solo expedition
:25:28. > :25:45.Mark, I know you were good friends with Henry and we really got a sense
:25:46. > :25:52.in that film of the man at the heart of this tragedy. How did you see
:25:53. > :26:02.him? Well, I met Henry when I arrived at the South Pole in 2012,
:26:03. > :26:05.after my solo attempt there. I found it extraordinarily difficult to
:26:06. > :26:11.reach the Pole itself, and when I first met Henry, he was full of
:26:12. > :26:15.smiles and fun and laughter, and then I found out five minutes later
:26:16. > :26:21.that he had just completed an 80 day plus expedition himself. So an
:26:22. > :26:27.extraordinary, strong willed, powerful man, with a deep sense of
:26:28. > :26:33.humour. Do you understand that need for solo exploration? It seems to be
:26:34. > :26:40.quintessential to this expedition, that drive to do it alone. Yeah.
:26:41. > :26:46.Exploring is either about what you walk through and what you see more
:26:47. > :26:50.or what you feel internally. To do a solo expedition is a different step
:26:51. > :26:56.altogether. You can't train for it, you just have to be thrown into the
:26:57. > :27:02.deep end. I can understand why Henry wanted to take up this expedition
:27:03. > :27:09.historically, but also for personal reasons. That is why we export to
:27:10. > :27:13.begin with. It all becomes personal. Caroline, how do you explain to
:27:14. > :27:17.somebody who is not an explorer just why you would take your life in your
:27:18. > :27:22.hands like this to achieve something like that? I think it is about
:27:23. > :27:26.challenging yourself. It is there, it is a wonderful thing to do. As
:27:27. > :27:31.Mark has been saying, when you are out there, you have an inner journey
:27:32. > :27:35.going on at the same time as the outer journey. And Antarctica and
:27:36. > :27:40.the Arctic are incredibly beautiful. It is such a privilege to be there.
:27:41. > :27:44.The whole thing as an assault on every sense. Not just what it looks
:27:45. > :27:50.like, it is what it sounds like and smells like, and to be able to bend
:27:51. > :27:56.70 or 80 days, however long you are out there it a huge privilege to be
:27:57. > :28:02.in a wonderful part of the planet. You are talking about conditions of
:28:03. > :28:09.-40 or lower. What does the cold do to you mentally and to your actions?
:28:10. > :28:15.It affects everything. I remember many evenings in the 10th, where you
:28:16. > :28:20.are melting snow to a quarter to drink and to make your food with --
:28:21. > :28:23.in the tent. And as you melt the water, you get steam coming out from
:28:24. > :28:27.the water. You have condensation from your own breath. I remember
:28:28. > :28:31.days digging in the tent when the whole place would be in a kind of
:28:32. > :28:35.fog and nobody could give anything to say to each other except how cold
:28:36. > :28:41.we were. We couldn't see each other. We couldn't think of anything to
:28:42. > :28:46.say. Mark, when you heard, in the film, Henry describing that moment
:28:47. > :28:53.for Shackleton, the agony of turning back, does that perhaps tell you
:28:54. > :29:00.something about why he himself left it so late? It is difficult to say,
:29:01. > :29:05.but I think if you are travelling as a team, then when you get medical
:29:06. > :29:11.conditions and you have other people to add their judgment to it, I think
:29:12. > :29:14.if it was a team approach, the expedition would have stopped
:29:15. > :29:20.earlier. But because Henry has got this tremendous drive and
:29:21. > :29:24.determination in him, any injuries that come up, you think you can get
:29:25. > :29:30.through it. I can't really speak for the situation, but I presume it was
:29:31. > :29:35.sheer determination, that he thought he could get past it and reach the
:29:36. > :29:39.final goal. And do you think that ultimately, that was where it went
:29:40. > :29:50.wrong, that you lose your sense of judgment of how bad things have got?
:29:51. > :29:54.Yeah, again, it is difficult to say, but I would say that you haven't got
:29:55. > :30:01.anything to measure it against apart from yourself. So I think he pushed
:30:02. > :30:07.it as far as he could and then literally, his body said Noel, I
:30:08. > :30:13.can't do this any more. -- his body said no. The problem with great
:30:14. > :30:18.explorers like Henry is that he has this real dog-eared British
:30:19. > :30:25.determination to just go that bit further --. Determination. And it
:30:26. > :30:31.might have been the ultimate decision, really. Caroline, when you
:30:32. > :30:36.think how connected we all are all the time, in a way, that is what
:30:37. > :30:40.makes a journey like this so extraordinary, the idea that you
:30:41. > :30:43.don't see humankind, you don't have any contact. Is that what makes it
:30:44. > :30:55.more attractive? That is part of the joy of it. You
:30:56. > :30:58.are self-sufficient. If you're in a team, you have people to share
:30:59. > :31:03.problems with and would can help with decision making. But even if
:31:04. > :31:07.you're a small group, you're entirely self-sufficient in this
:31:08. > :31:08.amazing wilderness, that is part of the appeal, yes. Thank you both very
:31:09. > :31:11.much. The writer Ben Judah grew up
:31:12. > :31:15.in London, but he says it's changed so much in recent years,
:31:16. > :31:18.he no longer knows whether he loves In a new book, he attempts to get
:31:19. > :31:23.beneath the surface of this new London, sleeping in subways
:31:24. > :31:26.and squatting in a dosshouse, getting to know some
:31:27. > :31:29.of the characters behind He made this film for us,
:31:30. > :31:48.with some of the many people he met People see this place to be, like,
:31:49. > :31:52.heaven. They think as soon as you arrive, you start plucking money off
:31:53. > :31:58.trees and picking them from the floor, whatever. But it's entirely
:31:59. > :32:08.different. I never dream of London. I can only see the buildings and
:32:09. > :32:13.about the Royal Family in the movie. If you can call it British dream,
:32:14. > :32:20.London dream, you name, it I think you can make it. This is the new
:32:21. > :32:26.London. An immigrant megacity, where nearly 40% were born abroad. I was
:32:27. > :32:29.born in London but I no longer recognise the city. I'm in search
:32:30. > :32:37.the stories that make up its new soul. I'm currently working in the
:32:38. > :32:42.cleaning industry. I'm a cleaner. How long is the commute? Takes me
:32:43. > :32:47.about an hour. Who are the people on the train in the morning? Well, you
:32:48. > :32:59.see a lot of people going to work, mostly immigrants. Going to work at
:33:00. > :33:06.this time of the day. London is changing. Around half the street
:33:07. > :33:11.sleepers are eastern European tramps. Is London difficult?
:33:12. > :33:19.Difficult, yeah. I don't know English. I coming here, it's very
:33:20. > :33:26.difficult. The people who coming here must speak the English language
:33:27. > :33:37.first. After they find a job, England have the jobs. Nicolai is
:33:38. > :33:41.off to find work. When it comes, it won't pay well. On the Romanian
:33:42. > :33:53.black market, the lowest wage I saw was one chicken and chips for a
:33:54. > :33:58.day's work. I don't have another solution, so I am on the streets. I
:33:59. > :34:03.can't bank because I don't have address. When I go to the agency,
:34:04. > :34:11.they want account bank to pay me. Where I go? I go in the street. He
:34:12. > :34:18.touts for work on the kerb every day. This is the London I've
:34:19. > :34:24.conculled, the city of beggars, black markets and doss houses. Why
:34:25. > :34:32.do they come? Because for men of a trade, for the few, the London dream
:34:33. > :34:36.can be real. I have literally ?250 in my pocket. I stayed in a room
:34:37. > :34:42.with a friend of mine, which he was already here. And I went out
:34:43. > :34:47.literally the next day to look for the job. I would stand on the corner
:34:48. > :34:51.where you have all other chaps waiting for the work. I speak up
:34:52. > :34:56.like the other people, that's how it worked those days. Every town in
:34:57. > :35:02.Poland has its London son, the boy who made it. He inspires 100 more.
:35:03. > :35:06.When all the Poles were coming, they were cautious about us. Now they're
:35:07. > :35:11.much more open. They prefer us on the building sites. They prefer us
:35:12. > :35:15.to do the building for them. Comparing to the native people. Fay
:35:16. > :35:19.came from your home -- if I came from your home town and I asked -
:35:20. > :35:24.should I come to London? What would you say? Yes, come over. I own three
:35:25. > :35:30.companies at the moment. I've got some renting properties. I own a
:35:31. > :35:34.house. I'm very happy. Do you think your children will be English first
:35:35. > :35:37.or Polish first? Looks like they're going to be English first, because
:35:38. > :35:41.we speak Polish at home, but they do speak English to each other. They
:35:42. > :35:46.speak perfectly Polish, perfect English. But they still, I would
:35:47. > :35:54.say, they are going to be more English than Polish. But mostly,
:35:55. > :36:02.migrants clean, wait and guard the golden city, never to enter. Jesy is
:36:03. > :36:06.from the Philippines. She works as a maid for the absentee owners of a
:36:07. > :36:14.superflat. I have missed my family very much. I left my daughter when
:36:15. > :36:21.she was one year and 11 months old. Because back home, I couldn't earn
:36:22. > :36:27.money to support my family, so I have to make an arrangement with my
:36:28. > :36:33.husband that one of us has to go and one has to stay to take care of my
:36:34. > :36:39.daughter. She found work bringing up another child, a little boy. She was
:36:40. > :36:44.a nanny. When the time came to go, she learned servants are never part
:36:45. > :36:51.of the family. When it comes to the point that we need to say goodbye,
:36:52. > :37:00.it's very hard for us this separation. I experienced it. Until
:37:01. > :37:05.now, this boy still here if my heart. Are you still in touch with
:37:06. > :37:11.the boy? The parents doesn't want them, doesn't want him to think
:37:12. > :37:27.about me any more. So they told him that I left London. Yes. Because he
:37:28. > :37:33.was crying and crying when I left. At night, London myrrh murmurs --
:37:34. > :37:41.murmurs. To be poor this London is to be tired. For years, Wester
:37:42. > :37:46.worked two jobs, cleaning day and night.
:37:47. > :37:54.I had a dream of becoming a system engineer, Microsoft engineer. But
:37:55. > :38:00.for now, I think I've gone astray. I'm still not giving up on my
:38:01. > :38:06.dreams. I'm still working on it. I can't complain. I'm doing well in
:38:07. > :38:11.the cleaning business. So, I can't complain. I'm not hungry. When you
:38:12. > :38:16.told your friends in Ghana you were going to London, what did they say?
:38:17. > :38:22.Everybody was happy. Like I said, some people back home think Europe,
:38:23. > :38:26.once you step in there you become a rich man overnight. And even to
:38:27. > :38:31.date, you still have some people calling and asking you for money.
:38:32. > :38:35.Even if you tell them you are broke, no, you are not. When we see you
:38:36. > :38:39.here, we know you're languishing, you know in riches and all that.
:38:40. > :38:44.You're just being stingy because you don't want to send us no money. This
:38:45. > :38:48.is what I want them to know that life is Notts all that milk -- not
:38:49. > :38:57.all that milk and roses here in London. Did you find work today? I
:38:58. > :39:04.don't. I don't find. Maybe tomorrow. Maybe tomorrow is another day. Every
:39:05. > :39:09.day, it's another day, with a chance. The London gives one million
:39:10. > :39:19.chance every day. Is it scary at night? It's all the crazy people.
:39:20. > :39:30.Must be careful, in the night. The night is dangerous. London glows in
:39:31. > :39:33.the villages of Africa, Eastern Europe and Asia, stirring up dreams.
:39:34. > :39:39.Tempting, like the city of Oz. Senegal's most famous son,
:39:40. > :39:45.Baba Maal has released his first album in seven years,
:39:46. > :39:48.and he's in Britain performing it. Hes with us here,
:39:49. > :39:51.tonight, with this song,