:00:00. > :00:00.Tonight we throw some light on Britain's electricity problem
:00:07. > :00:19.and the latest delay in the long-awaited nuclear solution.
:00:20. > :00:25.For a modern industrialised economy, which claims to be one of the
:00:26. > :00:28.leading economies in the world, to have any doubt about whether there
:00:29. > :00:31.is enough electricity to keep the lights on is a serious place to be.
:00:32. > :00:33.We'll ask if the nuclear option is either viable or desirable.
:00:34. > :00:37.Also tonight - the Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn,
:00:38. > :00:39.on war in Yemen and the Saudis and the British role.
:00:40. > :00:42.The mystery of a plane crash on Saddleworth Moor in 1949,
:00:43. > :00:45.and an elderly, well dressed man found dead in the same spot in 2015.
:00:46. > :00:50.Turns out he's not who everyone thought.
:00:51. > :00:55.Professor Evans, it's not you? No, it's definitely not me.
:00:56. > :00:59.You're almost certainly the last living survivor of this crash?
:01:00. > :01:04.I think it's very likely that I'm the last living survivor.
:01:05. > :01:06.The former Swedish prime minister tells us
:01:07. > :01:08.whether Britain can leave the EU, enjoy the single market
:01:09. > :01:11.and stop the free movement of European citizens into the country.
:01:12. > :01:25.Sometimes, important news consists of things that don't happen,
:01:26. > :01:29.rather than things that do - today is one of those occasions.
:01:30. > :01:31.The building of a new nuclear power station at Hinkley Point
:01:32. > :01:37.The board of the French electricity giant EDF was originally scheduled
:01:38. > :01:39.to sign off the ?18 billion construction of Hinkley Point C,
:01:40. > :01:45.It could still happen next month - or after.
:01:46. > :01:48.But clearly there are lingering nerves that it is a project
:01:49. > :01:53.of such a scale that if EDF bungles it, it could destroy the company,
:01:54. > :01:57.notwithstanding all the support the British Government has offered.
:01:58. > :02:00.Now here's the thing - if Hinkley Point is in trouble,
:02:01. > :02:06.We'll be getting perilously short of capacity as it is,
:02:07. > :02:11.and Hinkley is meant to build in 7% of our electricity,
:02:12. > :02:14.but its potential absence leaves a giant hole.
:02:15. > :02:31.has been looking at what's holding it up.
:02:32. > :02:41.Can Britain keep the lights on without it costing a fortune? That
:02:42. > :02:46.concern about a so-called energy gap is a major worry, so it is important
:02:47. > :02:51.that plans for a massive new power plant, Hinkley Point C, now look a
:02:52. > :02:56.bit shakily. You might remember Hinkley, a proposed new nuclear
:02:57. > :03:01.station in Somerset to be built by EDF, the French electricity group.
:03:02. > :03:03.It is supposed to supply 7% of our electricity needs, but a
:03:04. > :03:11.confirmation announcement has been delayed. Welcome to Downing
:03:12. > :03:15.Street... This might prove a serious embarrassment for the Government.
:03:16. > :03:21.Signing a deal with China on Hinkley was a centrepiece of the state visit
:03:22. > :03:25.last year. It is also a major policy. British energy policy
:03:26. > :03:28.currently has three sometimes competing objectives. The first of
:03:29. > :03:33.these is pretty simple, make sure there is enough energy to go round,
:03:34. > :03:38.even as demand increases, as it is expected to do in the coming
:03:39. > :03:41.decades. The second is to reduce carbon in the energy sector, and the
:03:42. > :03:47.third is to achieve the first two objectives without increasing bills
:03:48. > :03:52.for the taxpayer or the electricity consumer. The supply position in
:03:53. > :03:57.Britain is not crisis level in the sense of there being power cuts any
:03:58. > :04:02.day soon. But it is a serious problem in the sense that it costs
:04:03. > :04:07.more to keep the system balanced, prices are higher than they
:04:08. > :04:11.otherwise would have been, and for manufacturing, households, they are
:04:12. > :04:15.paying a price for as sailing so close to the wind. And for any
:04:16. > :04:19.modern economy, you know, there are things you should take for granted.
:04:20. > :04:23.You shouldn't have to question whether there is enough electricity
:04:24. > :04:27.supply. That is why delays to Hinkley are a worry, so what is
:04:28. > :04:36.going on? Hinkley would use a new type of reactor, an EPR, so new that
:04:37. > :04:42.it is not yet running anywhere, and not for want of trying. An EPR
:04:43. > :04:47.project in France is six years late and 7 billion euros over budget, and
:04:48. > :04:52.that is having a huge ramifications for Hinkley. In France, a union with
:04:53. > :04:55.a seat on the EDF board is concerned about whether they can afford a
:04:56. > :05:00.project of this size and the riskiness. The union says Hinkley
:05:01. > :05:04.Point represents a huge investment in terms of the market
:05:05. > :05:08.capitalisation of the group and its financial position. They see
:05:09. > :05:12.financial, industrial and legal risks to the project. There is
:05:13. > :05:17.another reason why foreign progress really matters. If you look through
:05:18. > :05:22.the small print of the deal offered to investors, there are sweeteners
:05:23. > :05:27.from the Government, but they only take full effect if and when those
:05:28. > :05:31.foreign reactors can show that the design for Hinkley Point works. You
:05:32. > :05:35.can see why new delays in France in the past week might make investors
:05:36. > :05:40.nervous, and nuclear is a tough sell for them anyway. Nuclear power
:05:41. > :05:43.stations are difficult to finance for several different reasons, but
:05:44. > :05:49.one of the core ones is that they cost an enormous amount to build,
:05:50. > :05:53.and building is always risky, but key issue for investors is you do
:05:54. > :05:58.not get any cash flow out until you have spent every single penny of the
:05:59. > :06:01.construction business. If you spend a similar amount building or
:06:02. > :06:06.developing a new oil and gas field, you might only spend 20% before you
:06:07. > :06:12.get some oil and gas out, some cash flow. The cost to EDF of raising
:06:13. > :06:16.capital has also risen. This is the changing cost for EDF of borrowing
:06:17. > :06:23.for 15 years since last spring. It used to get debt at 1.5% a year. It
:06:24. > :06:28.does not quite doubled but nearly, 2.75% now. So could we finance
:06:29. > :06:33.Hinkley in any other way? We could have added British component to this
:06:34. > :06:38.project, it could have been an Anglo-French project, it could have
:06:39. > :06:43.been financed by nuclear bonds, financed by the Treasury, and the
:06:44. > :06:46.cost of the capital would have been substantially lower. Unfortunately,
:06:47. > :06:51.that argument has been lost, but we will live with the consequence of
:06:52. > :06:56.choosing the more expensive route for perhaps 60 years as a
:06:57. > :07:00.consequence. But we are where we are, and problems in a French
:07:01. > :07:05.company's work on a French reactor have led to murmurs among investors
:07:06. > :07:06.about the next generation of the British energy infrastructure as
:07:07. > :07:07.well. If the finances of Hinkley Point
:07:08. > :07:11.are challenged right now, remember that the economics
:07:12. > :07:13.of renewable energy also struggle when oil is as cheap
:07:14. > :07:16.as it is right now. We're joined by Jenny Jones
:07:17. > :07:20.of the Green Party and Ed Davey, who was Secretary of State
:07:21. > :07:36.for Energy and Climate Change You were negotiating with EDF on
:07:37. > :07:39.this very project for ages. It was painful, actually, it went on and
:07:40. > :07:44.on, are you surprised that day, after all of that, have stepped back
:07:45. > :07:48.and said, let's think about this at little more? Not really, it is a
:07:49. > :07:53.very congregated deal, a huge decision for them to make, and it is
:07:54. > :07:58.a delay of weeks, rather than months. -- very complicated deal. It
:07:59. > :08:04.is not just about Hinkley Point C, it is linked to what will happen at
:08:05. > :08:09.Sizewell C, it is also linked to Bradwell, the other site in Essex,
:08:10. > :08:13.the Chinese link there. It is a highly complicated deal. I am not
:08:14. > :08:18.surprised that it has been kicked down the road a month or two. They
:08:19. > :08:22.have not got it running in Flamenville or in Finland, massively
:08:23. > :08:27.over budget, massively delayed. Have they bitten off more than they can
:08:28. > :08:32.chew? Hinkley Point C is actually two of these reactors, and they have
:08:33. > :08:39.not got one working yet. The key thing for me was making sure the
:08:40. > :08:41.British consumer was protected, so the British consumer pays nothing
:08:42. > :08:45.until these things start generating, nothing at all. We have also said
:08:46. > :08:50.the contract is not going to happen until Flamenville works. So we have
:08:51. > :08:57.protected the UK. But George Osborne, what he has done since the
:08:58. > :09:00.election, he has got rid of support for renewables, completely abandoned
:09:01. > :09:04.carbon capture and storage. These are low carbon technologies that we
:09:05. > :09:08.put in place to compete, to make sure we were not putting all our
:09:09. > :09:12.eggs in the nuclear basket, and he has played a very irresponsible card
:09:13. > :09:17.with British energy policy. George Osborne is the real villain of this
:09:18. > :09:23.piece. Jenny Jones, you tweeted today, this makes me very happy, the
:09:24. > :09:27.news of the delay. Why did it make you happy? It is a deal that should
:09:28. > :09:32.never have been struck, and it must not go ahead. If this gets built, we
:09:33. > :09:36.will have the most expensive nuclear power plant on earth, and we will
:09:37. > :09:42.also have the most expensive electricity being produced from any
:09:43. > :09:45.technology. It is madness. You mentioned earlier the nuclear
:09:46. > :09:51.solution. It is not a solution, it is the start of a lot more problems.
:09:52. > :09:54.Is that right? I disagree. What is different with this deal from any
:09:55. > :10:01.other nuclear deal in the world is that the decommissioning costs are
:10:02. > :10:07.in the price. The cost of managing the waste are in the price. We will
:10:08. > :10:11.be paying more for decades ahead. It is cheaper than some of the
:10:12. > :10:16.renewables, and, moreover, if you compare it with gas and coal, plus
:10:17. > :10:20.their pollution costs, not just the wholesale price of coal and gas but
:10:21. > :10:26.a carbon price on top, that would be a fair way of doing it, it is
:10:27. > :10:29.completely linked to those prices. He was against nuclear, he came
:10:30. > :10:34.around when he had a job in government and had to work it out.
:10:35. > :10:38.Climate change, if you care about climate change, you should not be
:10:39. > :10:43.taking a low carbon technology off the table. The whole point about
:10:44. > :10:46.nuclear for me is that it has never been cost-effective. It has not
:10:47. > :10:51.stood on its own feet without public subsidy in 60 years, and it is not
:10:52. > :10:56.going to in the future either. The strike price at this power station
:10:57. > :11:01.is going to beat ?92.50 per megawatt. That means, you know, you
:11:02. > :11:06.say the consumer is not paying, but the taxpayer is paying huge amounts
:11:07. > :11:10.of money to subsidise this. This brings us to an interesting
:11:11. > :11:13.question, if you do not want nuclear, you do not want heating to
:11:14. > :11:18.be run by gas, because that is carbon. You do not want cars to run
:11:19. > :11:26.on petrol, what do you want them to run on? When we are looking at how
:11:27. > :11:29.to construct a future that is going to be viable in terms of climate
:11:30. > :11:33.change and the needs of humans, you have to think about renewables,
:11:34. > :11:36.heavily investing. But be clear, you have to replace the nuclear power
:11:37. > :11:40.stations that are falling by the wayside, the Coral, the gas power
:11:41. > :11:46.stations, you have to do that and introduce a enough new power
:11:47. > :11:51.stations to run cars, heat homes, how? Gas is going to be part of the
:11:52. > :11:56.make up for some time, but if we had combined heat and power stations,
:11:57. > :12:01.when we want to down scale gas, we can start bringing in green gas from
:12:02. > :12:05.food waste and so on. Food waste is going to run all the automobiles in
:12:06. > :12:09.the United Kingdom? Let's think about reducing the number of
:12:10. > :12:13.automobiles. You have to remember that our energy needs have gone down
:12:14. > :12:18.in the past few years. That is quite unexpected, when you think the
:12:19. > :12:22.population has gone up, but people are understanding you can save money
:12:23. > :12:27.and save energy, and people are doing it. This government, including
:12:28. > :12:33.the Conservative-Lib Dem coalition, is not invested in installation or
:12:34. > :12:39.reducing people's need. You make a good point. Very kind of you! And
:12:40. > :12:42.you. I am a huge fan of renewables, I commissioned more than any other
:12:43. > :12:49.British politician in history, I am a huge fan of energy at but I am not
:12:50. > :12:55.a clairvoyant, I cannot tell the future. Lots of people think they
:12:56. > :13:00.can, and given climate change is such a threat to humanity, we should
:13:01. > :13:03.have all the low carbon options on the table, including nuclear,
:13:04. > :13:07.including renewables, energy efficiency, carbon capture and
:13:08. > :13:10.storage. What George Osborne is doing, by cutting back on energy
:13:11. > :13:15.efficient renewables, he is bling fast and loose with the climate and
:13:16. > :13:17.fast and loose with energy security. -- he is playing. I am so sorry, we
:13:18. > :13:19.have to stop. Well, Westminster is less gripped
:13:20. > :13:22.by an impending electricity shortage - it's a few years away, after all -
:13:23. > :13:25.it is dominated this week by the tax row that won't go away,
:13:26. > :13:28.Google's tax bill. It came up again at PMQs today.
:13:29. > :13:30.Here's Jeremy Corbyn. I've got a question here,
:13:31. > :13:32.Mr Speaker, Now, you might well laugh,
:13:33. > :13:40.but Geoff actually speaks for millions of people
:13:41. > :13:46.when he says to me, "Can you ask the Prime Minister if
:13:47. > :13:52.as a working man of over 30 years, whether there is a scheme
:13:53. > :13:55.which I can join that pays the same rate of tax as Google
:13:56. > :14:00.and other large corporations?" What does the Prime Minister say
:14:01. > :14:05.to Geoff? Sitting behind David Cameron there,
:14:06. > :14:08.the Chancellor who had called Broadly speaking, the commentariat
:14:09. > :14:13.beg to differ Two representatives of that
:14:14. > :14:17.commentariat are here. Rachel Sylvester from the Times
:14:18. > :14:28.newspaper and Tim Stanley Rachel Sylvester, is this
:14:29. > :14:32.potentially the first issue where Corbyn is going to have something to
:14:33. > :14:36.go with and it will last quite a while? That's right. It is one of
:14:37. > :14:39.the first time it is Corbyn standing up for ordinary people against the
:14:40. > :14:44.elite. George Osborne has got himself on the wrong side of this
:14:45. > :14:47.argument. I think Corbyn is striking a populist note in the way he hasn't
:14:48. > :14:52.on all the issues of national security, defence, and all of the
:14:53. > :14:55.things where he has been alienating Middle England and people will be
:14:56. > :15:01.saying yes, someone saying what we feel. Tim Stanley, there have been
:15:02. > :15:05.lots of people who wouldn't ally themselves with Corbyn, like Rupert
:15:06. > :15:12.Murdoch tweeting today, lining up on the same side. Where is the
:15:13. > :15:16.Telegraph on this taxish yoo u? I don't know you were going to ask me
:15:17. > :15:22.that! If you have a very complicated tax system n the way we do for
:15:23. > :15:25.international taxes, this kind of complication can emerge. We would
:15:26. > :15:29.rather people paid as much tax as they should. This is why this has
:15:30. > :15:32.happened. George Osborne wants to keep businesses in this country.
:15:33. > :15:36.That is why he's cut this deal. Sorry, that is why the HMRC has cut
:15:37. > :15:41.this deal. This is why he described it as a victory. You keep a major
:15:42. > :15:46.company in the country. The problem is, the rest of us pay 20% or 40%
:15:47. > :15:49.when it comes to tax. We don't understand why a company should pay
:15:50. > :15:52.3% when it makes such an extraordinary amount of money. This
:15:53. > :15:56.isn't the first mistake. We discovered that George was mortal
:15:57. > :16:00.when the tax credit issue came up and when the Government was defeated
:16:01. > :16:04.in the Lords. Also, we have seen a reversal through the courts possibly
:16:05. > :16:08.on bedroom tax, too. So all these big welfare changes, which George
:16:09. > :16:12.saw as being real vote winners and clever things to force Labour to the
:16:13. > :16:17.left and make the Government look populist, they could end up haunting
:16:18. > :16:20.him. The Ed Miliband phrase about the Tories are strong when it comes
:16:21. > :16:25.to standing up to the weak and weak when it comes to standing up to the
:16:26. > :16:32.strong. The optics of simultaneously a bedroom tax court case coming in,
:16:33. > :16:34.disabled children and women with domestic violence problems, and the
:16:35. > :16:41.Government says we will appeal against this today. They are
:16:42. > :16:47.declaring, they are trying to defend this tax settlement with Google, it
:16:48. > :16:50.is not good? The Tories underlying fundamental brand problem is they
:16:51. > :16:54.are seen as the party of the rich and they are on the side of the
:16:55. > :16:57.wealthy elite, big business, large international corporations, rather
:16:58. > :17:00.than on the side of the hard-working, ordinary person. They
:17:01. > :17:04.have tried to position themselves as the party of the strivers. Every
:17:05. > :17:08.time this happens, it looks like they are back to that party of the
:17:09. > :17:13.rich image. There are two mistakes in a way. One is, if you want to
:17:14. > :17:20.take the Labour narrative, one is you gave into Google and you had
:17:21. > :17:23.?130 million. The other is, George Osborne thought that was a victory.
:17:24. > :17:28.That is the bit where he is out of touch with everyone else. That is
:17:29. > :17:32.not a victory... That is the tone deafness, isn't it? Osborne is
:17:33. > :17:36.working on an intellectual level which means he is thinking about the
:17:37. > :17:39.economic long-term. He does care passionately about people making
:17:40. > :17:42.money. He is big on entrepreneurs and the Northern Powerhouse. He
:17:43. > :17:47.likes the thought of ordinary people getting ahead. The problem is, it is
:17:48. > :17:50.a cliche, but we have to keep coming back to it. When you haven't worked
:17:51. > :17:56.for a living and relied on welfare, when you haven't done what a lot of
:17:57. > :18:00.ordinary working middle-class people do, you don't connect the dots
:18:01. > :18:04.between welfare charges and what effect they have people's individual
:18:05. > :18:08.lives. That is the piece that is missing with George Osborne. There
:18:09. > :18:12.are people within the Tory Party who support Boris Johnson who are very
:18:13. > :18:16.keen to exploit that. Come on, talk about how this impacts the
:18:17. > :18:19.leadership race. That is what everyone talks about now. It is
:18:20. > :18:25.another example of George Osborne's big flaw which is a lack of
:18:26. > :18:32.emotional intelligence. He is very clever, lots of tactical schemes,
:18:33. > :18:36.but he lacks the empathy for how ordinary people live and an ability
:18:37. > :18:40.to articulate and understanding of that. That is the difference between
:18:41. > :18:46.a leader and a Chancellor. Boris Johnson is the absolute opposite.
:18:47. > :18:52.He's got all the emotional, whatever you want in the world, but he lacks
:18:53. > :18:57.a consistency and discipline. What I find interesting, Osborne seems to
:18:58. > :19:03.exist in cycles, boom-and-bust, there are periods when his stock is
:19:04. > :19:07.so high, and periods when his stock goes down. Before the 2010 election,
:19:08. > :19:11.they were saying is Cameron going to have to dump him? He's changing more
:19:12. > :19:15.than almost any other member of the Cabinet. It is not just the haircut
:19:16. > :19:22.and the diet. And the image makeover. He's gone from being a
:19:23. > :19:27.tactical, hard economic person to being a more Heseltine protege.
:19:28. > :19:31.There is a lack of emotional intelligence underlying that. Is
:19:32. > :19:34.there a split at the party? Some people have said there is such a
:19:35. > :19:38.difference between the Cameron narrative and the Osborne narrative.
:19:39. > :19:42.There is an emerging split. Is that true, Tim? It could be that Cameron
:19:43. > :19:45.had the advantage of an extra day of headlines to see I'm not going to
:19:46. > :19:49.hold the line that Osborne tried holding on Saturday? There is a
:19:50. > :19:54.split of where we go next, what the party is going to look like. The
:19:55. > :19:58.choices between Cameron, which is driven by the search for consensus,
:19:59. > :20:04.and the search for social peace in Britain. There is the libertarian
:20:05. > :20:07.politics of George Osborne which is supported by the creation of a
:20:08. > :20:11.fantastic political machine within Parliament. Osborne will have a lot
:20:12. > :20:15.of supporters because he's put them in important positions of power.
:20:16. > :20:19.There is a challenge coming forward. I'm starting to buy into the
:20:20. > :20:23.narrative that the next leader of the Tory Party will be someone who
:20:24. > :20:26.we have never heard of, but someone who surprises us and hasn't been
:20:27. > :20:29.inside Parliament for a long time. Thank you.
:20:30. > :20:30.This programme has made quite an effort to draw attention
:20:31. > :20:32.to the war in Yemen - to most it probably feels remote,
:20:33. > :20:34.and overshadowed by the cruelty in Syria.
:20:35. > :20:38.But it clearly is something to do with us, as Saudi Arabia is leading
:20:39. > :20:41.the effort to reinstall the old government of Yemen,
:20:42. > :20:44.and Saudi Arabia is using British arms and getting British
:20:45. > :20:48.Today, a major report on the conflict from a UN Panel
:20:49. > :20:51.of Experts was leaked, so we have their view.
:20:52. > :20:53.Gabriel Gatehouse has been reporting on the conflcit -
:20:54. > :21:07.You have a leaked copy of the report. It is quite balanced, isn't
:21:08. > :21:11.it? It is even-handed, it points out the Saudis are supporting the
:21:12. > :21:15.internationally recognised government of Yemen. It blames its
:21:16. > :21:20.opponents for bringing about the crisis and paints a bleak picture.
:21:21. > :21:24.Human rights violations by both sides, proliferation of groups, the
:21:25. > :21:28.use of starvation as a method of warfare. It's the issue of air
:21:29. > :21:34.strikes that critics of UK Government policy have focussed on.
:21:35. > :21:38.They go into some detail. 60% of civilian deaths, 2,682 deaths were
:21:39. > :21:42.caused by air strikes. The Saudis and their allies are the only ones
:21:43. > :21:49.with any air power. When you dig into the detail, you see things like
:21:50. > :21:54.the targeting of refugee camps, schools, buses, markets, mosques,
:21:55. > :21:57.factories and three alleged cases of civilians fleeing residential
:21:58. > :22:03.bombings being chased and shot at by helicopters. It doesn't specifically
:22:04. > :22:08.mention the UK record here. But it is very relevant? It doesn't mention
:22:09. > :22:11.the UK. It calls on the international community to support
:22:12. > :22:17.independent investigations into violations by both sides. The UK
:22:18. > :22:38.sells arms to Saudi Arabia, it doesn't sell arms to the other
:22:39. > :22:42.group. And lawyers said they have given the government until the end
:22:43. > :22:44.of next week to suspend arms exports to Saudi Arabia or else they will
:22:45. > :22:46.issue legal proceedings. Thank you. The Labour Party is particularly
:22:47. > :22:48.concerned at the British role in this war - Jeremy Corbyn raised
:22:49. > :22:50.it at Prime Minister's Questions today, and a little earlier I spoke
:22:51. > :22:53.to the Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn, who along
:22:54. > :22:56.with Mr Corbyn has today called for a suspension of UK arms
:22:57. > :22:58.sales to Saudi Arabia. I began my asking him what he wants
:22:59. > :22:59.Britain to do now in light Now, other organisations
:23:00. > :23:06.Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch,
:23:07. > :23:10.Medecins Sans Frontieres have been reporting what they regard
:23:11. > :23:12.as violations of international humanitarian law, but now we have
:23:13. > :23:16.this expert panel on Yemen, set up by the UN Security Council,
:23:17. > :23:20.saying that they have documented air strikes targeting civilians
:23:21. > :23:24.in breach of international In the light of that,
:23:25. > :23:29.given the weapons that we sell as a country to Saudi Arabia,
:23:30. > :23:32.given the rules that the Government is meant to apply, Jeremy Corbyn
:23:33. > :23:36.and I have today written to the Prime Minister to say
:23:37. > :23:40.you should now carry out an urgent investigation and should suspend any
:23:41. > :23:44.further weapon sales pending The Saudis - and by extension us -
:23:45. > :23:51.are backing the right side in this conflict, in the report,
:23:52. > :23:53.the UN report, it is called Do you support the objective of that
:23:54. > :24:00.government getting back in? I do because that is
:24:01. > :24:02.what the United Nations does. But, in conducting this conflict,
:24:03. > :24:08.and over 7,000 Yemenis have been killed, 2.5 million have had
:24:09. > :24:11.to flee from their homes, there is a grave humanitarian
:24:12. > :24:16.catastrophe, that is what the UN It is really important
:24:17. > :24:21.that the campaign is conducted within international law
:24:22. > :24:25.and there is, of course, an impact on the UK because we have
:24:26. > :24:29.the arms control criteria. That could have a very damaging
:24:30. > :24:34.effect on the long-term British arms trade because people
:24:35. > :24:37.to whom we supply arms may say we can't rely on these people not
:24:38. > :24:40.to be applying strings and terms and conditions after the fact
:24:41. > :24:43.when we want to use them. You have to be honest
:24:44. > :24:48.about that, haven't you? This could be costly in monetary
:24:49. > :24:53.terms even though it might be the right thing to do,
:24:54. > :24:56.in your view? If you have got the criteria that
:24:57. > :24:59.say if there is a clear risk that this may result
:25:00. > :25:01.in the commission of serious breaches of international
:25:02. > :25:04.humanitarian law, the Government's put the rules in place,
:25:05. > :25:06.previous governments have done that as well, they should be applied,
:25:07. > :25:11.you should look at what's happened British Governments have tended
:25:12. > :25:16.to believe the Saudi relationship David Cameron has talked
:25:17. > :25:20.about security, at least one incident he says, terrorist incident
:25:21. > :25:24.here, that has been thwarted I accept the argument
:25:25. > :25:31.that the security co-operation that we have with Saudi Arabia
:25:32. > :25:34.is extremely important. We both face a terrorist threat,
:25:35. > :25:37.lots of countries face a terrorist threat, and therefore effective
:25:38. > :25:40.exchange of information about the nature of that threat,
:25:41. > :25:42.individuals who might be responsible for attacks,
:25:43. > :25:45.of course that is important. What do you do if the Saudis say
:25:46. > :25:48.there is no more defence Well, I hope very much
:25:49. > :25:53.that they would not do that because if breaches of international
:25:54. > :25:56.humanitarian law are proven, and the committee on experts has
:25:57. > :26:01.said today this is what we found, the answer to that is to change
:26:02. > :26:05.what you are doing so you do comply But I hope genuinely that that
:26:06. > :26:09.would not get in the way of the security co-operation
:26:10. > :26:11.which is important to protect our citizens,
:26:12. > :26:13.as well as the citizens of Saudi Arabia, and people right
:26:14. > :26:17.around the world given the nature It brings us to your relationship
:26:18. > :26:21.with Jeremy Corbyn, who is a very principled man on foreign policy,
:26:22. > :26:25.and quite uncompromising The impending issue facing
:26:26. > :26:32.you all is Trident. Is Labour going to have one policy
:26:33. > :26:41.on Trident when it comes to a vote Different members of
:26:42. > :26:45.the Parliamentary Labour Party and different members
:26:46. > :26:47.of the Labour Party hold My view is as follows: I want
:26:48. > :26:51.a world in which there are no nuclear weapons, and
:26:52. > :26:53.so does Jeremy Corbyn. You get there by multi-lateral
:26:54. > :26:57.negotiation, not Not one of the other nuclear states
:26:58. > :27:03.in the world would say if you are giving yours up,
:27:04. > :27:06.we will chuck ours in the bin and, secondly, it's a different world out
:27:07. > :27:11.there and the threat that I grew up with, and many people did,
:27:12. > :27:15.fear of the Soviet Union, that has changed, although we have
:27:16. > :27:19.seen Russia doing certain things that have given rise to concern,
:27:20. > :27:23.but who can say with any certainty what the threats will be in 10, 20,
:27:24. > :27:26.30 or 40 years' time? Would you want a world
:27:27. > :27:29.in which North Korea was the only nation that had nuclear weapons
:27:30. > :27:32.and everyone else has This gets us to the heart
:27:33. > :27:36.of the problem. You have exchanged and espoused
:27:37. > :27:38.the beliefs you have The policy review may come up
:27:39. > :27:43.with the opposite policy which is to get rid of them
:27:44. > :27:45.straightaway, British weapons, Would you be able,
:27:46. > :27:50.as Shadow Foreign Secretary, to stay in the Shadow Cabinet,
:27:51. > :27:54.in that post at least, with such a big difference
:27:55. > :27:59.between you on that issue? Look, I won't answer that now
:28:00. > :28:00.because we don't know what the outcome of
:28:01. > :28:03.the review is going to be. Let us see what the outcome of that
:28:04. > :28:05.review is going to be. It is important that
:28:06. > :28:07.everybody argues their case Are you comfortable now that
:28:08. > :28:14.you have found a working arrangement in the party between independent
:28:15. > :28:18.thought and collective Look, all political parties
:28:19. > :28:23.are coalitions of interest And one of the reasons I think why
:28:24. > :28:30.Jeremy won the election is that people saw someone who was willing
:28:31. > :28:34.to say what he thought, He appointed people
:28:35. > :28:37.to the Shadow Cabinet knowing that on one or two issues they had
:28:38. > :28:41.different views to him. That is a strength of our politics
:28:42. > :28:44.and the most important task we have got at the moment actually
:28:45. > :28:47.is to hold this rotten Government to account because we need
:28:48. > :28:50.a strong opposition, and there is a lot of people out
:28:51. > :28:52.there who are suffering because of what Government is doing
:28:53. > :28:54.and they want to see an effective opposition and that is
:28:55. > :28:57.what we are seeking to do under Hilary Benn,
:28:58. > :29:11.thank you very much. People said when I introduced that
:29:12. > :29:12.item I said Hilary Big Ben. I don't remember doing that, but he is a
:29:13. > :29:15.very tall guy! A sad and intriguing story
:29:16. > :29:16.now from the Pennines. Greater Manchester Police
:29:17. > :29:18.are investigating the mystery of the body of a smartly-dressed
:29:19. > :29:19.elderly man which was found
:29:20. > :29:21.on Saddleworth Moor in December. or the circumstances
:29:22. > :29:24.around his death. But one theory on the man's presence
:29:25. > :29:27.there is that he may have some connection to a plane crash
:29:28. > :29:31.at the site, that was back in 1949. Nick Hopkins has been
:29:32. > :29:37.looking into it. This is one of the last
:29:38. > :29:43.images of him alive. The next day, his body was found
:29:44. > :29:49.lying face up on Saddleworth Moor. The man, apparently around 70 years
:29:50. > :29:52.old, travelled more than 200 miles to get there with no wallet,
:29:53. > :29:57.no phone and no ID. Six weeks on, the police
:29:58. > :30:05.still have no idea who he is. August 1949, a plane travelling
:30:06. > :30:09.from Belfast to Manchester crashes on the edge of
:30:10. > :30:13.the Peak District. We are considering whether
:30:14. > :30:20.the gentleman was a relative Alternatively, there were
:30:21. > :30:27.a few children who survived from the plane crash, and maybe
:30:28. > :30:31.he was one of those people. He would match the age,
:30:32. > :30:34.but there are inquiries ongoing to see if we
:30:35. > :30:36.can discount that. He looked at peace
:30:37. > :30:43.when a passing cyclist found him. Could this possibly have been
:30:44. > :30:45.some kind of pilgrimage? He began his journey at Ealing
:30:46. > :30:54.Broadway Station in west London. He travelled to the
:30:55. > :30:58.capital's Euston Station. He asked for directions
:30:59. > :31:04.to the top of a nearby hill He was seen walking on the path
:31:05. > :31:09.two hours later. The next morning,
:31:10. > :31:12.his body was discovered. This is where the plane
:31:13. > :31:18.came down in 1949. Among the survivors,
:31:19. > :31:22.two were boys back in 1949. One is now dead,
:31:23. > :31:27.the other is Stephen Evans. But it could be - I could understand
:31:28. > :31:37.why people would think But it's not me, and I have no
:31:38. > :31:43.idea who it could be. Newsnight tracked down
:31:44. > :31:47.Professor Evans last night. He rang police to say
:31:48. > :31:50.he is alive and well. Almost certainly, he's the last
:31:51. > :31:56.remaining survivor from the flight. I remember my mother saying to me,
:31:57. > :32:13.as we looked out, that it is cloud outside,
:32:14. > :32:16.when I had suggested it was fog. She said, "No, it is cloud,"
:32:17. > :32:19.and the next thing I remember was waking up, and most of the plane
:32:20. > :32:22.seemed to be over there, and my mother was in the seat
:32:23. > :32:25.beside me, unconscious but praying. Stephen Evans's younger brother
:32:26. > :32:28.Roger died in the crash. Yes, he refused to leave the scene
:32:29. > :32:38.until he was sure that everybody who remained there
:32:39. > :32:44.had no hope of being rescued. He insisted on being
:32:45. > :32:48.the last living person to leave. But he had a broken kneecap,
:32:49. > :32:52.and he was crawling round, and immediately after the plane
:32:53. > :32:57.crash, I recall him saying, "We must get out of here
:32:58. > :32:59.before the tanks go up, we must get out of here
:33:00. > :33:02.before the tanks go up." So the man on the hill
:33:03. > :33:05.was not on that flight, though someone close
:33:06. > :33:08.to him could have been. The tragedy is that somebody
:33:09. > :33:12.should be so alone in life that they go off
:33:13. > :33:20.and nobody misses them. Police have had dozens of leads
:33:21. > :33:27.- theories abound. But the truth is
:33:28. > :33:29.they still don't know the identity
:33:30. > :33:33.of the man on Saddleworth Moor. Newsnight has caused
:33:34. > :33:35.quite a stir in Belgium today. All to do with our interview
:33:36. > :33:38.last night with the Greek migration minister, who accused his Belgian
:33:39. > :33:41.counterpart of suggesting migrants should be pushed back into the sea
:33:42. > :33:44.to stop them coming. The Belgian minister concerned,
:33:45. > :33:47.a Flemish nationalist, issued a statement
:33:48. > :33:49.denying he'd said that - But he said he did think migrants
:33:50. > :33:56.who didn't claim asylum should be pushed back
:33:57. > :34:00.to their country of origin. That row shows how sensitive
:34:01. > :34:06.the issue is and fraught for governments
:34:07. > :34:10.across Europe. And it's completely displacing
:34:11. > :34:11.discussion about Britain's possible exit
:34:12. > :34:13.from the EU. Well, earlier today,
:34:14. > :34:15.I sat down with Carl Bildt, former prime minister and foreign
:34:16. > :34:18.secretary of Sweden, a man who's been at the top table
:34:19. > :34:31.of European discussions for decades about both where we are
:34:32. > :34:38.and where are going. I asked him about the tone of
:34:39. > :34:41.debate. I'm disappointed with some
:34:42. > :34:45.of the things that we are seeing, but clearly we have, I think,
:34:46. > :34:47.in the Western electorate, when we look at the American debate,
:34:48. > :34:50.Mr Trump, for example, or Madame Le Pen in France
:34:51. > :34:52.or whatever, we have sort of an angry coterie of our
:34:53. > :34:55.electorate which is dissatisfied with the way our societies
:34:56. > :34:57.have been developing, globalisation, immigration,
:34:58. > :34:59.whatever, and has led to a certain brutalisation of the politics
:35:00. > :35:01.on these issues as well, that other politicians
:35:02. > :35:04.move off in that direction. That is unfortunate,
:35:05. > :35:08.when that happens. One response to this migrant crisis
:35:09. > :35:12.has been for countries to say, let's build fences
:35:13. > :35:20.around our country. There is another response,
:35:21. > :35:24.isn't there? Which says the problem with Schengen
:35:25. > :35:27.was we didn't go far enough, we didn't have a common asylum
:35:28. > :35:29.policy, a common immigration policy, a common passport,
:35:30. > :35:31.a common right to residency. I just wonder whether you think,
:35:32. > :35:34.actually, maybe that is the way the whole thing in the end
:35:35. > :35:37.is going to have to go. I think, over time, it will have
:35:38. > :35:44.to move in that direction, because at the moment, when we
:35:45. > :35:48.have the common Schengen zone, and and we have the principle of asylum
:35:49. > :35:52.policy is supposed to be the same, but the application
:35:53. > :35:53.is very different. Sweden has been extremely
:35:54. > :35:55.generous, others might be That leads to the streams
:35:56. > :35:59.being sort of distorted, so over time we need to move to a
:36:00. > :36:02.truly common European asylum system. Otherwise it's going
:36:03. > :36:04.to be very difficult. I don't think it's going to happen
:36:05. > :36:09.next week, to put it in those terms, We've spoken a lot here
:36:10. > :36:13.about how leaving the EU, Tell us what you think
:36:14. > :36:20.the consequence of a Brexit would be for the rest of Europe -
:36:21. > :36:23.would it be damaging? I think it would be seriously
:36:24. > :36:29.damaging to all of us. Because we are living,
:36:30. > :36:33.as I think we agree, in a more dangerous world,
:36:34. > :36:36.it is more challenging, it is more demanding,
:36:37. > :36:39.it is more dangerous. That means that friends must work
:36:40. > :36:42.together, and if we suddenly see a Europe that starts to fracture,
:36:43. > :36:48.with a significant country leaving, that is going to be
:36:49. > :36:52.a weakened Europe, and in my opinion
:36:53. > :36:55.a more dangerous Europe. The separation negotiations
:36:56. > :36:58.are going to be very, very messy, for the UK to sort out what's going
:36:59. > :37:08.to be the alternative arrangement, and I know there's virtually
:37:09. > :37:12.no debate about that subject, which I think it's vital
:37:13. > :37:14.for the future, if there's
:37:15. > :37:15.going to be anything. This is going to consume a lot
:37:16. > :37:18.of the political energies all over Europe.
:37:19. > :37:20.I mean, take Russia, Ukraine. What we have seen as a consequence,
:37:21. > :37:23.there is no question that the United Kingdom,
:37:24. > :37:25.which is a significant diplomatic and foreign-policy actor,
:37:26. > :37:27.always has been, should be in my opinion, has been otherwise
:37:28. > :37:29.engaged during this particular period, because it is dragged down
:37:30. > :37:32.by this particular debate. Has that been a good thing
:37:33. > :37:39.or a bad thing? In my opinion,
:37:40. > :37:42.it's been a bad thing. We are losing in power
:37:43. > :37:44.and credibility when the UK sort of disappears
:37:45. > :37:47.from the scene and gets bogged down
:37:48. > :37:52.in its own contradictions. Do you think it is possible
:37:53. > :37:58.we would have full access to the single market
:37:59. > :38:02.without free movement of people? And the border issue,
:38:03. > :38:14.to me, is somewhat bizarre, I arrived here on the train
:38:15. > :38:18.from Brussels, and when you go past Calais and enter into the tunnel
:38:19. > :38:21.there, I mean, there is barbed wire, there is barriers,
:38:22. > :38:26.there is police, there is military. The French are controlling
:38:27. > :38:29.the external border and preventing people
:38:30. > :38:33.from coming in. but I had to pass two different
:38:34. > :38:38.checks with passports. I mean, it looks like
:38:39. > :38:40.you have control Right, but we can't stop
:38:41. > :38:46.any number of people, citizens, passport holders of the EU
:38:47. > :38:49.who choose to settle and work here. That is true, that is true,
:38:50. > :38:53.but that is very, very different from the Calais or the Syrian
:38:54. > :38:55.or the refugee crisis. I mean, you have 2.25 million
:38:56. > :39:01.citizens of the EU living and working and contributing
:39:02. > :39:05.to the UK economy, there is in the order
:39:06. > :39:07.of two million UK citizens I am on the board of a think tank,
:39:08. > :39:14.and we have done a study, and they make significant
:39:15. > :39:28.about these things, and they showed I can understand some
:39:29. > :39:33.of the concerns about the refugees We are marking it with a song
:39:34. > :39:56.from British composer of drawings and poems
:39:57. > :40:00.made by the children of Terezin that Pook saw at the
:40:01. > :40:04.Jewish Museum in Prague. was a holding camp for Jews
:40:05. > :40:08.before they were sent east And the words of Birdsong,
:40:09. > :40:11.here performed by the Zemel Choir, # Then if your tears
:40:12. > :40:52.obscure your way